IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-07-13
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01:30:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i have great news
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05:46:39 <Samanth0r> I didn't really have a reason to come in here, I just wanted to say i've been playing openttd for years and you guys are fucking awesome.
05:47:25 <planetmaker> that's a good enough reason :-)
05:48:20 <Samanth0r> so how are you today
05:48:47 <planetmaker> luckily 10°C cooler than 24h ago
05:49:27 <Samanth0r> ah. it's the middle of winter here.
05:49:34 <Samanth0r> well what passes for winter in Au.
05:53:15 <__ln__> btw, don't forget to thank Chris Sawyer for the game.
05:53:29 <Samanth0r> I should email him or something :)
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05:54:49 <SmatZ> I don't think he likes TTDP or OTTD
05:54:59 <planetmaker> send a donation to OpenTTD via tt-forums
05:55:26 <planetmaker> that's more sustainable than an e-mail to CS ;-)
05:56:28 <planetmaker> servers have running costs...
05:56:53 <Samanth0r> i know how you feel..
05:57:21 <Samanth0r> I am going to get some lunch
06:18:48 <Moodles> i like to have the hardest possible difficulty with singleplayer games (mountainous terran, low towns, low industries, low rough, sea level high), which is the best AI that handles that kinda setup the best (ie. competitive)
06:19:30 <Moodles> most ive tried always seem to go bankrupt after a year
06:19:55 <planetmaker> which have you tried?
06:21:17 <Moodles> ive downloaded them all with the ingame online content downloader, probably tried half of them
06:22:10 <Moodles> trAIns seems to do the best job ive seen so far
06:24:06 <planetmaker> if you tried them all... then you know the answer(s)
06:24:17 <planetmaker> especially as the answer may differ from map to map
06:26:39 <planetmaker> it will also heavily depend upon the newgrfs being used
06:27:04 <Moodles> some of them have trouble starting at 1950
06:28:36 <Moodles> i gues i should just start a new game, and an AI of each type
06:28:59 <planetmaker> you might consider to post your AI test results in the NoAI sub-forum, too
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06:47:09 <Moodles> i remember playing years ago, the default ai actually did a really good job
06:49:07 <planetmaker> then play the versions from years ago
06:50:57 <planetmaker> but "default AI" and "really good job" are two things which never fit into the same sentence unless separated by a "never did a"
06:51:58 <Ammler> there are a lot AI tournaments etc.
06:52:35 <Ammler> maybe it should be time to measure how well the AIs go with human players
06:53:52 <planetmaker> Ammler: well... that's more difficult to measure
06:54:06 <planetmaker> as you cannot measure neutrally a human playing strength ;-)
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07:08:50 <__ln__> the highest recorded temperature in 76 years yesterday
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08:05:40 <Rubidium> dih: I've got some laundry that needs to be done
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10:39:20 <Rubidium> oh... pies... that's good
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10:41:08 <Rubidium> so... when are we getting a pie oriented cargo system?
10:41:35 <Rubidium> getting flour, eggs and water into a factor that makes dough
10:41:53 <Rubidium> that with coal or wood to a factory that bakes it
10:42:02 <Hirundo> the 'cargo' part of the performance rating seems to count the num of cargo types delivered in this quarter, not the last as the description states
10:42:38 <Rubidium> and finally delivering the pies and possibly other pastries to the towns
10:43:52 <planetmaker> [12:41] <Rubidium> so... when are we getting a pie oriented cargo system? <-- :-D
10:44:03 <planetmaker> That sounds actually like a very good mod for toyland :-)
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11:02:46 <planetmaker> hm, do RV really not support callback 36 (change vehicle property) wrt speed?
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11:13:44 <Terkhen> to my knowledge, they don't
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11:16:45 <planetmaker> hm... trains have different colours for different players in our game. And it desyncs
11:25:59 <Ammler> players is a bad word in openttd, use client or company :-)
11:26:14 <planetmaker> players in the same company
11:26:25 <planetmaker> or clients in the same company. yes
11:26:47 <planetmaker> seems reproducable for the single person. But... not consistent between clients
11:26:50 <Ammler> as I started playing openttd player was a company :-)
11:27:28 <Rubidium> does one player first join the server as spectator and then join the company, and the other joins directly?
11:27:57 <planetmaker> Rubidium: I tried. Makes no difference for me
11:28:06 <Rubidium> *one* player can reproduce it reliably and the rest can't?
11:28:20 <planetmaker> well. Every player seems to have 'his' colour.
11:28:50 <planetmaker> they flicker their colour!
11:28:58 <planetmaker> they were transiently orange for me now
11:30:54 <planetmaker> yes... changing colours randomly
11:30:58 <planetmaker> seemingly at least
11:31:58 <planetmaker> as do the vehicle colours in the purchase menu
11:32:04 <Rubidium> using a NewGRF you haven't used before?
11:32:07 <planetmaker> and now I desynced
11:32:10 <planetmaker> 2cctrainset-beta2
11:32:17 <planetmaker> yes, not used before
11:32:38 <Rubidium> guess that's pushing some boundary somewhere
11:32:39 <planetmaker> at least very probably that it's not been used before
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12:07:25 <peter1138> hmm, anyone familiar with sqlite?
12:07:56 <Noldo_> how familiar do you need?
12:08:33 <peter1138> i have a db that is mostly working, but sometimes data is not saved
12:10:02 <peter1138> so an insert will execute, and i can select against it as normal... but later it's not there :s
12:11:30 <__ln__> peter1138: pragma integrity_check;
12:12:13 <Sacro> are you confirming the transaction on the insert?
12:15:30 <Eddi|zuHause> AIs have really big problems with high sealevel
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12:23:54 <Pikka> Eddi: AIs have really big problems with hilly terrain and locomotives with 12kN TE. :P
12:32:17 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: this image is impossible, because there are completed lines
12:32:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it's fake! i can tell by the pixels!
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12:46:34 <SmatZ> "You are not authorized to su root" gentoo is again forcing me to run KDE as root...
12:47:35 <Noldo_> there propably some group you need to be in
12:47:51 <SmatZ> well, it worked until yesterday :)
12:48:06 <SmatZ> I don't want that wheel stuff on my one-user computer
12:50:19 <Belugas> hello you sir SmatZ :)
12:51:06 <SmatZ> woohoo, SU_WHEEL_ONLY=no :) I wonder how could I overlook that in the merge
13:18:03 <Eddi|zuHause> # he hee hell-oh
13:34:36 <Eddi|zuHause> funny tidbit: all french nouns ending on -eau are male, except eau, which is female
13:39:05 <Wolf01> if you want to know something funny about Italy, I can tell you that we mispell very often the plural and the adjective of composite nouns, like pomodoro->pomodori: wrong, it should be pomidoro
13:40:02 <Noldo_> so pomodori wins google fight?
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13:41:55 <Wolf01> pomodori is now tolerated because of common use
13:42:42 <Wolf01> it derive from "pomo d'oro" (literally golden apple, because of their color)
13:43:01 <Wolf01> so the plural is indeed "pomi d'oro"
13:44:27 <Wolf01> and about articles and adjectives, we often rely on the last letter, so if it's A or E, it's female, else it's male... which is not true in all cases, especially on composite nouns
13:45:16 <Wolf01> __ln__, if you wantes an italian lesson, here you can learn something :P
13:46:40 <Wolf01> another now tolerated form is "ma però" wich could be translated with "but but" so it's redundant
13:47:44 <Noldo_> I started thinking that composite nouns in finnish all might have the substantive part in the end
13:48:38 <Eddi|zuHause> in german, the gender of the compound noun is usually that of the last noun
13:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Der Dampf + Das Schiff = Das Dampfschiff
13:49:37 <Wolf01> and I don't tell you about our misused double negations in a sentence, which makes our intentions quite understandable...
13:49:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Der Dampf + Die Lok = Die Dampflok
13:50:26 <Eddi|zuHause> double negations are difficult in any language
13:50:58 <Wolf01> but we use always double negations, that's why I like taking tests in English
13:52:12 <Wolf01> like the IQ tests, the Italian one is a pain...
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14:41:22 <insulfrog> hello, just testing ChatZilla on my firefox browser :)
15:16:20 <VVG> What are FIRS' farms' max production values?
15:23:45 *** Me is now known as silverrus
15:25:17 <silverrus> i need some help with openttd
15:25:41 <silverrus> how do i get the old music on the newer versions
15:25:56 <Zuu> Do you have a TTD windows CD?
15:26:02 <insulfrog> you will need the files from the original game
15:26:28 <Zuu> The old music is on the Windows edition of the TTD CD.
15:27:03 <silverrus> i have the old music on my comp as .gm files
15:27:16 <silverrus> but i dont know how to replace the current music
15:27:47 <Zuu> Put the gm folder (with the gm files inside) in your OpenTTD dir (not in the data dir)
15:28:05 <Zuu> Then in OpenTTD go to game options and select the original music set.
15:28:35 <Zuu> After than you need to enter a game, open up the music window and hit play.
15:33:32 <silverrus> zuu, the original music set does not appear in the list (on game options for music)
15:33:44 <Zuu> Where did you put your gm folder?
15:33:57 <silverrus> in the openttd folder
15:33:59 <Zuu> Ie what is the path to it?
15:34:51 <insulfrog> path should be 'root'/openttd/gm
15:35:05 <Zuu> So you have C:\Progarm files\openttd\gm ?
15:35:12 <silverrus> i know what the problem is
15:35:24 <insulfrog> (e.g. c:\openttd\gm)
15:35:24 <silverrus> i didnt name the music folder to 'gm'
15:35:43 <silverrus> im wrong there too!
15:36:00 <silverrus> ok, so the individual gm files should all be in \gm ?
15:36:34 <Zuu> insulfrog: You do not need to put the openttd directory in the root directory.
15:36:51 <insulfrog> i know, its just an example
15:37:17 <Ammler> (you could read the readme)
15:37:24 <Zuu> "path should be 'root'/openttd/gm" <-- does not look like an example to me.
15:38:08 <silverrus> ok the music is working a-o-k
15:38:15 <silverrus> but it sounds nothing like the music i once heard on this game
15:38:27 <Zuu> Possible a different soundcard?
15:38:40 <Zuu> The music is midi, so it depends on your soundcard.
15:38:52 <silverrus> its not the same tracks
15:39:08 <silverrus> this is the scott joplin anthropolgy
15:39:11 <insulfrog> what do you mean 'the same tracks' ?
15:39:12 <Zuu> Do you have OpenMSX installed?
15:39:29 <Zuu> But you selected original music in game options?
15:39:44 <silverrus> no i selected scott joplin anthropology
15:40:01 <silverrus> and now its playing this piano crap
15:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> anthology, not anthropology
15:40:32 <Eddi|zuHause> anthropology is where you research prehistoric mankind
15:40:32 <Ammler> Zuu: you should not support someone using illegal download ;-)
15:40:47 <silverrus> its not an illegal download
15:40:49 <Eddi|zuHause> anthology is a collection of items
15:40:51 <silverrus> it was from openttd forums
15:40:57 <Zuu> well, I did not help him getting the files.
15:40:58 <silverrus> its public domain stuff
15:41:16 <Rubidium> silverrus: 1) you didn't download it from the OpenTTD (sub)forum, 2) it's not public domain
15:41:33 <silverrus> oh sorry i meant tt-forums
15:41:53 <silverrus> forget about them tracks
15:42:03 <silverrus> i want the music that was in the early versions of the game
15:42:07 <Rubidium> 3) it's not illegal to download stuff in all countries
15:42:19 <VVG> it plays the music that you selected in game options
15:42:24 <Eddi|zuHause> silverrus: you have to take that from your original game cd
15:42:26 <VVG> you selected anthology, it plays anthology
15:42:38 <silverrus> this sounds nothing like the music i once heard
15:42:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the scott joplin anthology is not the original music
15:42:51 <VVG> select original music, it will play original music
15:42:56 <VVG> provided you installed it
15:43:02 <Ammler> silverrus: which sound packs do you have in your list?
15:43:38 <silverrus> openmsx, scott joplin and the 'no music' option
15:44:10 <Zuu> AFIK the original music sholud show up as "original music", not scott joplin.
15:44:48 <silverrus> give me 5 mins while i put my eye-patch on and find some treasure i mean uhh original ttd cd
15:44:50 <peter1138> my sqlite skills fail me :(
15:45:16 <insulfrog> the options should be called 'original_windows'
15:45:51 <silverrus> there's an OBM for the original but no actual music files
15:46:11 <Eddi|zuHause> of course there aren't, we can't offer them for download
15:46:18 <glx> we provide the obm (our format), you provide the music files
15:46:34 <insulfrog> now it's about time i had a quick go on openttd myself :)
15:46:57 <glx> it's the same for obs and obg
15:49:32 <Rubidium> planetmaker: re desync: did the colour thing happen before you enabled debug desync?
15:50:28 <Chris[A]> ok, I'm quite thoroughly confused now ... I've set up a simple rail system w/ 3 trains, 3 branches and they are moving goods to/from 3 industries (water/diamonds/oil) but the trains seem to ignore the first 2-way signal, stop at the second and then jame up the works till I fix it (I have 2-way signals on every branch at there respective junctions)
15:51:58 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean "ignore"?
15:52:08 <SpComb> Chris[A]: screenshot if you can
15:52:09 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: 2wayeol?
15:53:06 <SpComb> Chris[A]: generally speaking, two-way signals shared by multiple trains going in different directions are massive fail
15:53:55 <insulfrog> a complete rework of your rail system is definatly advised :D
15:53:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris[A]: try to use path signals, they're more likely to do what you want
15:54:01 <silverrus> if the file names are all in lowercase but the OBM refers to them with capital letters will it not recognise them?
15:54:18 <Eddi|zuHause> silverrus: that should not matter
15:55:02 <silverrus> i know what im doing wrong
15:55:29 <silverrus> SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
15:56:36 <Chris[A]> Eddi|zuHause: that worked, ty
15:56:43 <silverrus> got the old music on the game
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16:09:06 <insulfrog> right, gotta go, cyas :)
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16:57:39 <planetmaker> planetmaker: re desync: did the colour thing happen before you enabled debug desync? <-- I don't know
16:59:23 <planetmaker> I could just turn off desync debuging and test it
17:06:49 * planetmaker switched off debug_level desync=3
17:09:46 <planetmaker> Rubidium: mind though that I only turned on the desync debug after I saw the first one
17:10:07 <planetmaker> so it alone cannot be (all) the cause of the issues we have
17:14:00 <Rubidium> true, but if it's the desync debugging turned on that "causes" the issue it's (quite) likely something in the initialisation stage, i.e. something that happens when loading/joining the game, instead of some broken gamestate change (remember taking over bankrupt companies?)
17:14:28 <planetmaker> vvg claims he saw the different colours before.
17:14:44 <planetmaker> I don't know. And my trains so far stay blue. But that doesn't mean anything
17:15:48 <Rubidium> 'kay, lets assume it's something that isn't triggered by desync debugging
17:19:55 <planetmaker> in any case: the TGV uses the wrong colours. CCs are yellow+blue. And it uses Blue+red
17:20:20 <planetmaker> and some vehicles show yellow/blue others yellow/red in the purchase view
17:20:39 <planetmaker> like the last screenshot I attached
17:26:45 <Rubidium> okay, without debug desync I desync from your stream, with it I don't
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17:29:18 <planetmaker> but it wasn't on initially...
17:29:33 <planetmaker> ... so... two issues? :-(
17:29:51 <planetmaker> one seldom, one desync debug desyncs issue?
17:31:08 <Rubidium> desync debug effectively tests the "joining" part every tick, which means if its behaviour differs depending on that setting it's something that's triggered by "joining" at the wrong time
17:31:22 <Rubidium> so it's still quite possible the same issue
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17:31:44 <Rubidium> just more easily reproducable now the server is "joining" itself every tick and the clients aren't
17:37:31 * Rubidium is already increadibly happy it's so much easier to just get the initial reproduction state
17:41:38 <planetmaker> as opposed to when? :-)
17:41:59 <planetmaker> btw... the "changes colour daily" is mostly not true. Only the time I reported it in IRC
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17:50:28 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r20135 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
17:50:28 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:50:28 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 26 changes by pda1573
17:50:28 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 6 changes by josesun
17:50:28 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: dutch - 10 changes by habell
17:50:29 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: romanian - 10 changes by kkmic
17:50:29 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: serbian - 5 changes by etran
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19:05:58 * andythenorth forgets (a) where grfcodec is and (b) how to use it to decode UKRS 2
19:06:06 * andythenorth blames the make files
19:12:51 <andythenorth> :o grfcodec is in my path
19:13:21 <andythenorth> :o pikka has included a lot of nice stuff in p1kj
19:13:27 <frosch123> grfcodec -d path/to/grf dir/to/trash/stuff/into
19:14:14 <frosch123> how far is the 1k trains target?
19:15:25 <frosch123> maybe p1k shall contain 1000 trainmodels somewhen
19:15:50 <andythenorth> it's pretty limited by design I think
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19:18:42 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm doing some additions for P1JK / UKRS2
19:18:50 <andythenorth> I want to stick them in a repo...
19:19:45 <andythenorth> it's only graphics, dunno if it's worth a whole project or not. I could just hide them in HEQS or something
19:27:10 <planetmaker> andythenorth: no problem to make a separate repo for that
19:27:25 <planetmaker> you should be able to just create a project yourself
19:27:41 <frosch123> planetmaker: what is wrong in gui screenshot of fs#3945 ?
19:27:50 <frosch123> s/gui/purchase list/
19:28:12 <planetmaker> frosch123: the trains have 3 different CC there: red, yellow and (dark) blue
19:28:31 <planetmaker> red is not one of the chosen CC
19:28:39 <planetmaker> and you can also see it ingame
19:28:46 <frosch123> there are separate liveries for emu and freight wagons
19:28:57 <frosch123> and electric engines
19:29:09 <planetmaker> hm... then I learnt something new :-)
19:29:09 <frosch123> at least in the save you uploaded :)
19:29:24 <planetmaker> then there's probably no error in there
19:29:29 <frosch123> click on the train icon in the company colours gui :)
19:31:03 <planetmaker> oh... I guess... I clicked on it AAAAAges ago. And then totally never clicked on those buttons again
19:31:15 <planetmaker> so totally forgot about those possibilities
19:32:21 <planetmaker> Thanks for showing me (again)
19:32:24 <frosch123> and there is also an advanced setting "interface -> display options -> show company liveries" to enable the advanced livereis per client
19:32:37 <frosch123> so the two screenshots might not be a problem either
19:34:00 <planetmaker> well... then *maybe* someone played around with those settings at that time. I cannot absolutely exclude that, of course
19:34:16 <planetmaker> Though I hope someone would have said, when we discussed the colours
19:35:49 <frosch123> hmm, i wonder what happens when those colours are changed...
19:36:04 <frosch123> what caches are cleared, and are they cleared on all clients?
19:36:37 <planetmaker> It did not have any effect
19:36:47 <planetmaker> and... the trains are now yellow and not blue
19:38:24 <planetmaker> oh... wait. I had 'none' in liveries
19:38:32 <planetmaker> too many config places, honestly
19:39:23 <planetmaker> when I change that setting between 'none' and 'all companies', the liveries of trains change when they turn
19:40:09 <frosch123> you mean the colour is updated when they turn the next time?
19:40:35 <planetmaker> reversing at EOL or in station probably, too
19:40:52 <frosch123> quite likely changing the setting does not invalidate the cache
19:42:00 <frosch123> oh, nice, indeed that colour info can cause desyncs
19:42:19 <frosch123> newgrf can access the livery colour, not the primary company colour
19:42:28 <frosch123> and that is controlled by a client setting
19:42:40 <frosch123> but, does 2cc use the company colour variable?
19:43:05 <planetmaker> oh, you mean in the code via action2?
19:44:18 <frosch123> no, no var43 in the grf
19:44:27 <planetmaker> neither in the source
19:50:59 <frosch123> hmm, the grf only uses vars 0C, 10, 40, 41, 47, B4 and C6
19:53:58 <planetmaker> frosch123: not necessarily said then that it's the trains causing the desync
19:54:29 <planetmaker> I wondered about the colours - totally unaware of their adv. configuration possibilities and per-client setting related to it
19:55:53 <frosch123> did you already tried the usual things, like disabline yapf cache?
19:56:58 <planetmaker> can it be disabled on the fly?
19:57:26 <planetmaker> actually... no-one desynced again since we _disabled_ desync debuging again
19:57:57 <planetmaker> that is for two hours
19:58:08 <planetmaker> but of course... doesn't mean anything
20:01:22 <Rubidium> frosch123: the "problem" happens reliably when resetting the NewGRF caches
20:01:47 <Rubidium> i.e. when calling CheckCaches with non-zero desync debug level
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20:05:44 <frosch123> does it report a "cache mismatch" ?
20:10:41 <Rubidium> though it doesn't quite check all caches
20:12:56 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20136 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Codechange: check more of the vehicle caches (when desync debug is turned on)
20:13:38 <Rubidium> but... that doesn't catch it either :(
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22:51:24 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I'm *really* amazed that nobody filed a bug report about the root cause of FS#3945 yet
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23:05:39 <Rubidium> oooh... it's still alive!
23:18:07 <Rubidium> planetmaker: were you, at the time of the first desync, in a mixed electrified/non-electrified network?
23:19:24 <Rubidium> in any case... the cause of this desync could've triggered two (quite) distinct locations for desyncing
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23:33:58 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20137 /trunk/src/elrail.cpp:
23:33:58 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#3945]: desync due to (temporary) wrong railtype; when loading a savegame the railtype of some (high ID) trains could be wrong.
23:33:58 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: After loading the vehicle data in the trains are updated, but after that the
23:33:58 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: "electrification" checks are done which can change the "global" vehicle data.
23:33:58 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: However, this update is not propagated to the vehicles until the consist is
23:33:59 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: updated, e.g. turning around and going to a depot.
23:34:01 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: This makes some of the trains of a just joined client run as non-electrified trains which can cause it to take a wrong path or to not (randomly) show the electric sparks.
23:35:41 <ccfreak2k> That's quite the explanation there Rubidium.
23:48:40 <Wolf01> wow, that was a nice bug to fix
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