IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-06-15
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10:05:18 <Eddi|zuHause> real toys are the best toys!
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10:06:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i love the fact that he has "done" putting "snow" and "desert" into the landscape, and "only" needs to implement "desert not showing as snow" :p
10:07:46 <Terkhen> I like toyland as it is right now
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10:41:09 <TheYeIIowDucK> so many idlers?
10:43:38 <planetmaker> so many impatient people
10:44:03 <planetmaker> nevertheless: 'hello'
10:46:24 <TheYeIIowDucK> oh, yeah, forgot
10:46:34 <TheYeIIowDucK> IRC = idle chat
10:48:31 <TheYeIIowDucK> someone knows how does 32bpp works?
10:49:05 <Ammler> nobody is idle, most people just don't like you
10:49:47 <TheYeIIowDucK> morning, i guess
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10:50:57 <planetmaker> ho andythenorth :-)
10:52:12 <planetmaker> hey ho dihedral and Ammler
10:53:02 <planetmaker> :-) You watched the video I linked ;-)
10:53:39 <Ammler> I didn't find the "link", but yes
10:56:01 <planetmaker> so... will you make it on Saturday? :-)
11:06:10 <dihedral> might know by tonight
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11:11:33 <TrueBrain> or the day after that
11:11:40 <TrueBrain> well ... for sure we will know Sunday :D
11:12:24 <Eddi|zuHause> are you really sure? the likelyhood of time travel is not necessarily zero
11:12:41 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I personally, am really sure
11:14:27 * andythenorth is expecting ponies on Saturday :P
11:18:12 <planetmaker> if you bring one, andythenorth ...
11:19:19 * andythenorth is hoping for some fields for the ponies
11:19:29 <andythenorth> mr frosch was working on them but got a bit stuck
11:19:40 <fjb> planetmaker has a garden. :-)
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11:34:31 <planetmaker> well... there's more space behind the house, Eddi|zuHause :-)
11:34:56 <planetmaker> it's not "my" garden, but... usuable :-)
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13:32:33 <Belugas> mister Terkhen, I salute you :)
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14:54:54 <GVV> in my current FIRS game i have a serviced oil wells, that announces imminent closure and i don't understand why :(. Is this intended?
14:57:02 <De_Ghosty> or you didn't service it well enough
14:57:11 <planetmaker> at least serviced well
14:58:06 <GVV> it has very low production so atleast one train is pretty much always loading
14:58:14 <Mazur> It happens, when you've not seen an industry until late, and build a station, and haev jsut sent the first train to it.
14:58:32 <planetmaker> GVV: cargo needs to get delivered. Not only picked up.
14:58:48 <Mazur> Once it's really running, it should stay.
14:59:10 <planetmaker> waiting with a 60-tile train loading might not stop the low-production industry closing
15:00:23 <VVG> what would be a good lenght of train compared to industry production output?
15:00:59 <planetmaker> make a train leave at least two times a game year
15:01:24 <VVG> One particular oil well i'm talking about is production about 40k litres, and is being serviced by 4 trains 5 tiles long, for atleast 20 years now, and now it closes down
15:01:49 <glx> oil wells always decrease and close
15:02:20 <VVG> i thought they behaved like other mines :(
15:02:36 <planetmaker> VVG, what FIRS version do you run?
15:02:55 <planetmaker> can I get a screenshot of your grf list?
15:03:12 <VVG> it's the same game i sent yesterday
15:05:05 <VVG> i'll try your suggestion of 2 trains per year, now it's just about 1 train per year
15:05:54 <planetmaker> hm.... IIRC you added or changed the grf config there a couple of times
15:06:16 <planetmaker> Also and including FIRS. Not sure whether the oil wells might then have aquired the original oil well behaviour
15:06:21 <planetmaker> then closing down is very normal
15:06:35 <planetmaker> anything is possible :-)
15:08:32 <VVG> How bad is updating one nightly FIRS during running game with newer version?
15:08:48 <planetmaker> I strongly advise against
15:08:59 <planetmaker> it might completely ruin your game
15:10:49 <VVG> and it might not be obvious the game is ruined right after update, right?
15:13:51 <planetmaker> generally it's strongly discouraged to change ANY newgrf config after the map has been created
15:14:12 <planetmaker> changing industry newgrf is in most cases going to cause trouble one way or another
15:14:38 <glx> unless it's a vehicle grf and there's no built vehicle ;)
15:14:45 <planetmaker> it's the newgrf type most closely linked to the map
15:15:01 <planetmaker> glx, even then it might modify base costs :-)
15:19:50 <VVG> such a pity they don't behave when changing onthefly :(
15:23:51 <planetmaker> VVG, they are not inteded to be changed nor is it principally possible
15:24:30 <planetmaker> NewGRFs are building blocks of a map. Not a thing added as sugar on top
15:24:45 <planetmaker> they are WAY more than just the graphics you see.
15:24:52 <glx> and original they were not modifiable ingame :)
15:25:02 <planetmaker> They're thousands of lines of programme code which change the whole behaviour of the game
15:27:29 <SpComb> reimplement in haskell
15:28:02 <planetmaker> VVG, thus, for example, if you rip-out an industry set, you'll have the map littered with industries which the progamme doesn't know anymore how to handle them.
15:28:12 <planetmaker> All production, cargos, behaviour etc. is then undefined
15:28:41 <planetmaker> if you replace it by another version - you may be lucky that it's sufficiently compatible. But... it's another version. There are differences
15:28:48 <planetmaker> That's _why_ it is another version
15:29:29 <planetmaker> same goes with removing vehicle sets. Then the game will have vehicles which it has no way to define anymore.
15:29:37 <planetmaker> Quite certainly OpenTTD might then crash
15:30:08 <planetmaker> and _that_ is what the red warning box tries to tell you each time you change newgrf on a running game.
15:30:15 <glx> some engines may become wagons
15:30:45 <planetmaker> or a rail engine a maglev one
15:30:50 <glx> single head can become dual head
15:31:54 <planetmaker> actually: the only reason - as far as I see - why it's not made impossible to change newgrfs on a running game is that there a few things one can change without getting into trouble.
15:32:17 <planetmaker> Most notable is ADDING vehicle set(s) to an existing map.
15:32:33 <planetmaker> That doesn't include updating newgrfs or existing vehicle sets
15:32:54 <planetmaker> actually only ADDING should be allowed on a running game
15:33:03 <planetmaker> hm... :-) Might be an idea :-)
15:33:16 <Mazur> And removing them again if you decide that's nog the one you wanted to use and they conflict with the one you did want to use.
15:33:26 <VVG> those few things you mentioned are?
15:33:39 <planetmaker> VVG, I just mentioned them
15:33:54 <Yexo> Mazur: for that case make a savegame first, then load back that savegame when you added a newgrf you didn't actually want
15:33:54 <planetmaker> Also adding a station set is save
15:34:23 <glx> adding and removing station set is safe
15:34:33 <planetmaker> glx, sure? Removing used ones?
15:34:46 <Mazur> Oh, no, I was commenting about why one would want to be able to remove in a runnning game.
15:34:58 <Yexo> inserting (not only adding) vehicle sets should also work due the vehiclemanager
15:35:10 <glx> just non drivable tiles may become drivable
15:35:25 <planetmaker> glx, and exactly that crashes openttd
15:35:25 <glx> but that's harmless internally
15:35:31 <planetmaker> oh. vice versa :-)
15:36:11 <planetmaker> Yexo, insert as opposed to add means what? Position in NewGRF list?
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15:37:32 <planetmaker> Yexo, I'm somewhat in need of a minimalistic example for railtypes graphics
15:37:49 <planetmaker> I somehow didn't manage to get that working yesterday...
15:38:07 <planetmaker> but I don't have my code here right now for reference
15:38:17 <Yexo> I'll try and write something
15:38:29 <Yexo> nutracks is the best example code?
15:38:41 <planetmaker> that'd be nice... I only managed to trigger some errors. NuTracks is an example, yes
15:38:56 <planetmaker> should be the best available one presumably, too
15:39:34 <planetmaker> I don't need the graphics, just how to tell NML how to swallow them. So an example with white boxes is fine for me :-)
15:40:30 <VVG> guess i better i start a new game with no onthefly modifications
15:42:06 <planetmaker> but I somehow only managed yesterday night to produce NML errors. And I'm not sure where I go wrong... most probable with the cargo types definitions
15:46:12 <planetmaker> but no rush, I'll not be around tonight :-)
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15:51:16 <VVG> in FIRS, does it matter how many engeneering supplies i delivered to a mine to gain that 1 in 4 chance of production increase?
15:51:27 <andythenorth> at least 1 unit per month
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16:14:42 <Yexo> 3rd.png is copied from nutracks, offsets are also taken from there
16:14:57 <Yexo> this would give normal rail a spee dlimit of 40km/h and the 3rd-rail graphics
16:15:49 <Yexo> and it doesn't behave nice becaues not all graphics are defined, but it gives an idea of how to do it
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16:18:40 <planetmaker> ah. There was my missing piece
16:18:50 <planetmaker> the numbers defined in the lowest block for the graphics :-)
16:18:56 <planetmaker> thanks a lot, yexo!
16:19:30 <Yexo> adding number there wasn't possible until r300 :p
16:19:44 <Yexo> before that you could only use cargolabels which makes no sense for railtypes
16:21:07 <planetmaker> I guess I can define the constants then :-)
16:21:28 <planetmaker> or do you do that already?
16:22:30 <Yexo> relevant code is action3.py:62
16:22:46 <Yexo> so don't add the constants to the global constants table, just define a new table in action3.py
16:33:25 <planetmaker> hm... I guess the price we pay for the nice NML source code is a bit speed :-)
16:38:22 <Yexo> that's only when writing grf files, I haven't figured out yet where exactly in that code though
16:39:37 <planetmaker> well. Writing grf files is what we finally want ;-)
16:39:54 <planetmaker> I don't mind as of now :-)
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17:03:37 <frosch123> planetmaker: lazatus/freepascal is very different to delphi when it comes to gui stuff
17:04:17 <planetmaker> :-) I never really looked at it
17:04:38 <frosch123> even grf2html needed porting :p
17:05:43 <Belugas> ho... the Prince of Fucking Darkness has a new album coming in
17:06:00 <frosch123> but well, delphi is dead, long live freepascal :)
17:08:20 <Belugas> Delphi ? Dead? haa.... come on
17:08:38 <frosch123> what version are you using, belugas?
17:09:23 <Yexo> planetmaker: try "-u" if you want speed (no sprite compression)
17:09:39 <Belugas> frosch123: currently, D4, D5, D2006
17:10:00 <planetmaker> interesting, Yexo :-)
17:10:03 <frosch123> oh, D2006 surpised me
17:10:39 <Yexo> nml/lz77.py is the problem with the speed
17:12:21 <Belugas> i yurked at D2006. I love the form editor separated from the source code
17:12:26 <Belugas> and it takes like forever to load
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17:13:43 <frosch123> hehe, that's what i mean. the only usuable versions of delphi are ten years and olde
17:19:45 <Belugas> skype is done in Delphi
17:20:18 <Belugas> as well as Fruity loops, DEvC++, AdAware, Beyond Compare and way more
17:20:30 <Belugas> the king is dead, long live the king
17:20:43 <Belugas> but yeah for Embarcadero, it's still alive!
17:21:53 <SpComb> Yexo: is that the .grf compression?
17:22:41 <Yexo> behavior is the same as the grfcodec -u flag
17:24:47 <planetmaker> Yexo, you helped swedish rails quite a lot today :-) Thanks!
17:25:35 <planetmaker> I *think*. I haven't done comprehensive testing and I need to properly align everything
17:26:00 <SpComb> hmm, each sprite is compressed separately?
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17:36:08 <planetmaker> have a good evening :-) bye bye
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17:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r19989 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt russian.txt unfinished/irish.txt):
17:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 3 changes by Hadez
17:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: irish - 79 changes by tem
17:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by LazyBoy
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18:59:30 <Eddi|zuHause> <glx> adding and removing station set is safe <-- afair there was a flaw in there, when you remove a station grf, and then add a different one
18:59:56 <Eddi|zuHause> then existing stations with trains in them can become non-track
19:00:28 <peter1138> only if the grfs have the same grfid
19:01:12 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the trouble was replacing one isr version with another one
19:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> 0.7 to 0.8 or so...
19:18:11 <Ammler> almost every isr wasn't compatible
19:27:10 <Zuu> Ammler: Have you yet decided to come?
19:27:27 <Zuu> or is that still on the todo-list? ;-)
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19:41:49 <__ln__> Blue1 has cancelled their strike
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19:52:19 * andythenorth ponders more schemes to distribute industry on the map
19:52:52 <andythenorth> oil wells should either cluster with lower production or...
19:53:01 <andythenorth> ...one larger oil well with high production
19:53:51 <andythenorth> Mines are probably fine
19:54:55 <andythenorth> Should forests cluster?
20:01:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i think all primary industries can cluster, except maybe scrapyards
20:01:27 <Ammler> Zuu: I have acutally no serious excuse to not come, except the long trip :-)
20:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe almost the same, if you don't count the water
20:03:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i think your main problem is that braunschweig is not reasonably reachable from the north ;)
20:04:05 <Zuu> Only 1.5 hours from berlin which is just an overnight train away. :-)
20:04:31 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but berlin is not north of braunschweig ;)
20:04:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what's your reasoning for clustering all primary?
20:05:35 <Zuu> The other option is to take a night train to hannover, which is closer to braunschweig, but the night train arrives to early in the mornining in Hannover. :-p
20:05:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: gameplay wise, i like to cover several industries with a feeder system
20:06:42 <andythenorth> me too in most cases...not all
20:07:06 <Eddi|zuHause> "realism" wise, the environmental circumstances in a region often allow multiple industries of a similar kind spread out a little
20:07:19 <andythenorth> I instigated clustering farms so that each farm could have low production....I don't like a big queue of trucks at a farm
20:07:39 <andythenorth> mines I can cluster, but at a smaller cluster size than farms
20:07:46 <andythenorth> as mines already have high production
20:08:05 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, something like 2-4 at a location
20:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause> forests are often in places that are difficult for agricultural development, e.g. hilly landscape
20:09:20 <andythenorth> forests....depends how I implement them.
20:09:48 <andythenorth> I would like to do the trees with 'field tiles'
20:09:54 <andythenorth> that's work in progress
20:10:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that could be interesting, yes ;)
20:10:45 <andythenorth> the forest will then be either *one* logging camp surrounded by multiple 'landings' with yarders and trucks....or....
20:11:01 <andythenorth> each industry will be one landing (no logging camps needed)
20:11:15 <andythenorth> I am thinking the second route at the moment
20:11:28 <andythenorth> as IRL transport starts right at the landing
20:12:14 <andythenorth> in that case forests could have quite low production, and cluster
20:15:38 <frosch123> maybe cluster the mines, but with distance > 80 tiles
20:15:54 <frosch123> so the 64x64 station fools cannot service them with one station :p
20:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, something like that
20:16:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so they are in the same region
20:16:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and not scattered equidistant on the map
20:17:06 <andythenorth> my clustering code can enforce min / max distances easily
20:24:29 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: feeders with oil wells? Seems really boring
20:24:59 <andythenorth> I'm thinking one oil field, spread over many tiles, high production, no clusters
20:25:21 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe, but don't fall in the PBI trap to enforce the oil field on a flat land
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20:26:02 <andythenorth> I need to figure out how to allow building on slopes anyway
20:26:22 <andythenorth> if no sprites require more than one tile, it should be ok
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22:49:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r19990 /trunk/src/waypoint_gui.cpp: -Fix: owner of the Waypoint View window wasn't properly set
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