IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-06-14
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02:17:50 <Vadtec> who here is responsible for managing the wiki? as in adding extensions n such
02:20:32 <PeterT> Rubidium / TrueBrain are the website personel
02:23:53 <Vadtec> ok, i wrote an extension to mediawiki that might be useful to openttd, was just gonna pass it along to them
02:24:54 <PeterT> if you don't mind me asking, what does the extension do?
02:25:26 <PeterT> also, it's 4 AM in Europe which is where they are residing. if you can, stay until the morning and give it to them when they get back
02:25:59 <Vadtec> ah ok, i will be up for the next few hours, so ill try to catch them then
02:26:18 <Vadtec> the examples are out of sync with some of the features i added in today
02:26:28 <Vadtec> im currently updating them right now
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04:56:34 * Vadtec wonders what time Rubidium / TrueBrain usually wake/make their presence known
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06:21:25 <planetmaker> Vadtec: and where does the wiki need a progress bar?
06:21:59 <Vadtec> its just a handy feature
06:22:04 <planetmaker> the usual ToDo lists on that wiki are usually quite useless
06:22:25 <planetmaker> created not by the person doing something but by someone who is interested in a feature
06:22:56 <Vadtec> its just a handy thing
06:23:11 <Vadtec> no harm in offering it to openttd
06:23:19 <planetmaker> given that I've not seen one progress-meeter which is current... yeah
06:24:25 <Vadtec> well, if Rubidium / TrueBrain want to use it, cool, if not, cool
06:24:35 <Vadtec> i wrote it because i have a need for it
06:24:41 <Vadtec> so its gravy for me either way
06:30:30 <planetmaker> try your luck then :-)
06:30:43 <planetmaker> I'd not hold my breath for each of them showing up today, though ;-)
06:31:33 <Vadtec> if i were hard up about it, i would have contacted them on the wiki already
06:31:44 <Vadtec> oddly or not, i havent done that yet :P
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06:38:31 <planetmaker> moin Terkhen (this time with tab completion ;-) )
06:39:42 <peter1138> planetmaker, you heart the cake?
06:40:01 <planetmaker> yes, it's talking to me
06:44:03 <Terkhen> do cakes have interesting stuff to say?
06:44:34 <planetmaker> and it mumbles like "regret my calories", but I might have miss-heart
06:46:43 <planetmaker> irregular verbs suck even more than vaccum does
06:53:43 <peter1138> you figured it out ;)
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06:58:17 <planetmaker> thanks for the subtle hint :-)
06:59:06 <Sophira> I'm really sorry for the irrelevancy to this channel, so I'll keep it short: Does OpenBVE have an IRC channel of its own? I'm looking for one but I can't find one.
06:59:34 * planetmaker has no idea what you're talking about
07:00:20 <Sophira> Okay. (It's a train simulator, not related to OpenTTD; I only tried asking here because Google suggests that at least some people in here know about it.)
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07:17:31 <Sophira> I managed to answer the question I wanted. And now I'm installing OpenTTD, heh. (I'm trying out a few different simulators.)
07:18:12 <Sophira> Although I know they're different.
07:19:20 <Sophira> I might be back later :)
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07:35:24 <peter1138> yeah, why do they put openttd in "simulation"?
07:38:50 <Wizzleby> I'm curious, where else would you put it?
07:46:06 <Markk> Swedish Wikipedia: Strategy, English Wikipedia: "Business simulation game".
07:46:23 <Markk> Both are correct in it's own way.
07:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm really disagreeing with putting it in "strategy"...
07:56:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd expect civilization-style games in strategy, but not sim city-style games [which includes OpenTTD]
07:57:37 <Markk> But you'll have to strategize to make it in OpenTTD.
07:57:48 <Eddi|zuHause> no... not at all...
07:58:33 <Eddi|zuHause> you can drop one single profitable line, and then build only for the beauty of it...
07:59:35 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, you get a great gameplay experience when you turn off competitors
08:00:10 <Markk> Mhm, when I'm playing on my own I always turn off competitors.
08:01:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but if it were a strategy game, removing competitors would also remove the need for 95% of the strategies
08:01:22 <Eddi|zuHause> which is not the case
08:01:26 <Sacro> Markk: when you turn off competitors you are playing on your own :P
08:02:30 <Markk> I meant single player mode.
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08:12:19 <peter1138> yes, it doesn't fit strategy very well
08:12:23 <peter1138> but it fits it better than simulation
08:13:18 <peter1138> "business simulation" is no better. it doesn't do that either.
08:13:47 <peter1138> also, chrome sucks :s
08:14:10 <peter1138> had to kill it as it was 700+200+100+25+25+25+20+15+15+15+15+15MB resident...
08:25:50 <Eddi|zuHause> simulation is a waaaaay better fit than strategy...
08:27:37 <peter1138> simulation implies realism
08:27:41 <peter1138> and we all know where that leads
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08:31:09 <Ammler> every rpm distro does place openttd in strategy
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08:31:36 <Ammler> and it is for sure no simulation :-)
08:32:37 <Ammler> well, maybe you can simulate car traffic with trains
08:36:03 <Ammler> you need strategy to become tycoon against others
08:42:20 <heffer> Categories=Game;StrategyGame;
08:43:32 <Ammler> heffer: any idea, why you changed it?
08:44:05 <heffer> i think i just copy over the desktop file
08:45:02 <Ammler> upstream desktop file only defines Game
08:46:57 <peter1138> probably nothing to do with the .desktop file
08:47:23 <heffer> Ammler, ah i remember why i did it: we have a package called games-menus which generates submenus for the games
08:47:36 <heffer> that doesn't work if the desktop file only specifies games
08:47:47 <heffer> well it would be placed in "Others" then
08:47:55 <heffer> and that's not what it deserves :D
08:48:11 <Ammler> peter1138: the Makefile does write the desktop file which default is Game;
08:48:36 <peter1138> 08:17 < Sophira> I managed to answer the question I wanted. And now I'm installing OpenTTD, heh. (I'm trying out a few different simulators.)
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08:48:55 <peter1138> Ammler, and that implies it's nothing to do wtih the desktop file, because you wouldn't see it if you were just installing it
08:49:02 <peter1138> so it's in some package manager under simulation
08:49:43 <Ammler> yes, debian/ubuntu for example
08:49:58 <Ammler> no idea what Gentoo does
08:51:20 <Ammler> peter1138: if you install openttd, it does write the desktop file, where else is the group needed?
08:52:34 <Ammler> imo, it is all about the desktop file :-)
08:52:44 <peter1138> i don't understand what you are asking
08:53:29 <Ammler> what else then the desktop file should it be related to?
08:53:51 <peter1138> you still make no sense
08:54:25 <Ammler> well, I just try to tell you that your "[10:46] <peter1138> probably nothing to do with the .desktop file" is wrong
08:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> one pressing reason against strategy is: there is no "victory condition" that you can work your strategy towards...
08:55:07 <peter1138> i was talking about how sophira found it under simulators in her package manager
08:55:28 <peter1138> and categories within a package manager will not have anything to do with .desktop files
08:55:51 <peter1138> therefore, "probably nothing to do wtih the .desktop file" is correct
08:56:12 <Ammler> but the desktop file is what matters, imo
08:56:21 <peter1138> "simulation" isn't mentioned anywhere in the openttd sources except in the debian and os2 installtation stuff
08:56:45 <peter1138> Ammler, yes, it matters, AFTER it has been installed
08:57:23 <peter1138> but afaik, it's not mentioned as "simulation" in any .desktop file
08:57:57 <Ammler> I guess, debian does that, dosen't?
08:57:58 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but strategy appears even less...
08:58:18 <Ammler> ah ok, fedora and suse set that to strategy
08:58:52 <Ammler> as only "Game;" is "illegal"
08:59:18 <peter1138> debian has "Tag: game::strategy" in its package of it, heh
08:59:39 <peter1138> it's not illegal, it just means it ends up in Others, and somebody didn't like that
08:59:45 <heffer> so maybe upstream should settle on something there
09:00:07 <Ammler> on KDE, it has a ugly effect
09:00:19 <peter1138> KDE *is* an ugly effect
09:01:14 <peter1138> 09:55 < Eddi|zuHause> one pressing reason against strategy is: there is no "victory condition" that you can work your strategy towards...
09:01:19 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, well, there is
09:01:29 <peter1138> it's called tycoon status... 1000 points
09:01:33 <Ammler> ah no, the "ugly" effect is that if you have only one App in a group, it shows up in the parent
09:02:01 <peter1138> Ammler, not my fault KDE is stupid
09:02:06 <Ammler> but with the icon of the parent group instead the icon of the app
09:02:24 <peter1138> report a bug against KDE i suppose
09:02:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a feature ;)
09:02:44 <Ammler> that was quite confusing :-)
09:03:47 <Ammler> peter1138: I like KDE because of the apps, I don't really care about the look and handling that much
09:04:36 <Ammler> rarely using the start menu
09:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> my current start menu doesn't do this "collapsing" of menu categories anymore
09:06:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really know why
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09:16:35 <planetmaker> hm... reading back the arguments "simulation" is a better fit than "strategy"
09:17:52 <peter1138> business simulation, okay
09:18:08 <planetmaker> which is obviously a sub-division of simulation ;-)
09:19:15 <Ammler> is there a argument for simulation already?
09:24:12 <Ammler> I read only arguments against strategy, none for simulation
09:25:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the argument was "which is closer to TTD: sim city or civilization"
09:37:36 <peter1138> hmm, openttd's network protocol isn't suited to realtime games :(
09:48:36 <peter1138> what's a good system? :(
09:52:32 <Eddi|zuHause> zero-latency by quantum-entanglement
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10:31:32 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, how do you get the idea that that means zero latency?
10:32:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a joke, obviously...
10:32:24 <peter1138> negative latency :D
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10:48:22 <heffer> i once listened to a guy talking about financial it systems and what latency requirements they must meet
10:48:58 <heffer> most of the financial it companies use fibre-optics as copper has too high latency :D
10:54:41 <peter1138> and nick leeson was on dial up
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16:00:48 <zachanima> which direction is regarded as north?
16:13:21 <Belugas> if i'm not mistaken, it would be upper-left
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16:13:41 <KenjiE20> officially it's straight up isn't it?
16:13:52 <Yexo> in the openttd code straight up is north
16:14:09 <Belugas> looks i don't remember that well
16:14:16 <KenjiE20> coop puts it top left
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16:44:41 <planetmaker> KenjiE20: shall we push for a change? ;-)
16:46:40 * andythenorth andythenorth is north
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16:47:54 * planetmaker 's compass is failing ;-)
16:48:08 <planetmaker> andythenorth: geographic or magnetic? ;-)
16:48:25 <andythenorth> magnetic, definitely
16:49:12 <planetmaker> frosch123: Featurette request: 'delete' button in the load game dialogue
16:50:38 <frosch123> deleting is stupid if there is no confirmation
16:50:47 <frosch123> confirmatio is stupid if you cannot select multiple items
16:50:53 <andythenorth> it would also be useful if ctrl+save quit the current game with no warning
16:52:13 <planetmaker> frosch123: I don't necessarily subscribe to the last statement. But still
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16:52:25 <planetmaker> it's true, that'd be the next featurette request ;-)
16:52:47 <planetmaker> but when one finds a broken savegame, it'd make sense to just hit delete straight away.
16:54:56 <frosch123> why should i delete useful testcases? :p
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16:55:41 <planetmaker> frosch123: indeed I keep around some broken ones, too. For that reason :-P
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17:45:57 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r19988 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:45:58 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:58 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 12 changes by Hadez
17:45:58 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 12 changes by habell
17:45:58 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 11 changes by jpx_
17:45:59 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 11 changes by alyr
17:45:59 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: irish - 44 changes by tem
17:47:10 <zachanima> Belugas, I was thinking in the naming of, say, stations
17:47:22 <zachanima> Belugas, regarding north
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18:14:52 <frosch123> i guess noone knows how deprecated the "industry type" of the AI-station-selection callback is since newindustries
18:18:00 <Yexo> is there any documentation for the values returned by GenericCallbackGetVariable ?
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18:18:43 <zachanima> with 16 height levels, do they span #000000 over #111111 to #ffffff ?
18:19:01 <frosch123> FE unknown (only for AI vehicle selection callback) <- no idea what that means
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18:19:23 <Yexo> ai wants to bulid a route but doens't know the source industry, or multiple source industries
18:19:46 <frosch123> either new industries always give fe, or they return the substitute type, or the callback spec is just broken/deprecated
18:20:54 <Yexo> cb18 is broken/deprecated
18:21:22 <frosch123> well for vehicles it is, but i did not notice it was also for stations :)
18:21:38 <Yexo> I didn't notice either till you brought it up now
18:23:00 <frosch123> well, someone on the forums asked about what industrytype to pass for towns :)
18:23:24 <Yexo> I know, but I couldn't find the documentation and forgot to check the callbacks page
18:23:49 <frosch123> i am at findindustrytype of newai.asm now :)
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18:26:27 <frosch123> ok, ttdp does the same as ottd. it just returns the global industryid. no substitute or other stuff involved. i.e. when newindustries are in use the variable is totally useless
18:26:56 <planetmaker> no, it must be an OpenTTD bug. The docu cannot be wrong ;-)
18:27:08 <frosch123> planetmaker: what docu?
18:27:32 <planetmaker> he :-) The newgrf wiki? I thought you checked there ;-)
18:27:44 <planetmaker> (as first, and only then the codes)
18:27:49 <Yexo> yes, but there doesn't exists any documentation for this case (cb 18 with newindustries)
18:28:08 <frosch123> 83 B source industry type <- that is all :)
18:28:17 <Yexo> no documentation -> check how ttdpatch does it -> conclude both openttd and ttdpatch return useless values
18:28:21 <planetmaker> pretty obvious ;-)
18:28:38 * planetmaker hugs frosch123 and Yexo
18:28:57 <Yexo> returning the substitute industry type seems the most usefull, either that or return FE
18:29:24 <frosch123> yup, maybe we should start a topic at technical discussion to get no answer
18:29:57 <Yexo> when we make such a topic now, they can't blame us for not trying when we chose an option in a month
18:30:48 <Yexo> I'll write something up in a moment
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18:41:37 <frosch123> planetmaker: would you like to spent 20€ for me on cake, anti-alcoholics and meat? or do you think you can spent more without someone of us bursting?
18:42:37 <Yexo> you are coming to planetmakers this weekend too frosch123?
18:43:25 <frosch123> i counted about 15 people, so quite crowded :)
18:44:38 <frosch123> or only 12? pm should know better
18:44:58 <planetmaker> I'm not 100% sure. I'm quite sure of
18:45:45 <planetmaker> Zuu, __ln__, frosch123 , Yexo , Alberth, Rubidium, TrueBrain, SmatZ, Eddi|zuHause
18:45:56 <planetmaker> I'm still not sure whether Ammler shows up :-)
18:46:01 <Zuu> I bought a new alarm clock which has the funny feature of requring both two AA batteries and an AAA battery to function.
18:46:07 <planetmaker> nor whether dih shows up
18:46:36 <frosch123> i also counter planetmaker and fjb
18:46:52 <planetmaker> right :-) fjb has not a far drive :-)
18:47:02 <frosch123> and i thought there would be 5 dutch
18:47:13 <planetmaker> Hirundo said he couldn't make it :-(
18:47:44 <planetmaker> let's hope the weather will be slightly better than the forecast
18:48:09 <planetmaker> occasional showers
18:48:32 <planetmaker> not very summer-like
18:48:41 <Zuu> All I miss in gore tex is just gloves and shoes. :-)
18:49:17 <planetmaker> he... forecast improved since this morning ;-)
18:49:25 <planetmaker> only 22% rain chance instead of 60% :-P
18:49:31 <planetmaker> tells how reliable it is ;-)
18:50:07 <Zuu> Bringing an unmbrella is probably a better way to keep the rain away than believing in the forecasts. :-p
18:50:10 <fjb> What do I have to bring along?
18:50:37 <planetmaker> haha @ Zuu . That's what I keep telling, too :-)
18:50:55 <planetmaker> fjb: maybe some cake and / or something for the BBQ?
18:51:06 <planetmaker> maybe you can make a nice salat or so?
18:51:17 * fjb thinks about buying a small English dictionary.
18:51:28 <planetmaker> I've three around here
18:51:55 <fjb> Which day is the meeting? Saturday?
18:52:02 <frosch123> oh, i thought we would have three tables, for gemans, dutch, and the poor rest
18:52:20 * planetmaker bought today a "Bierzeltgarnitur" ;-)
18:52:39 <planetmaker> So for 6 .. 8 people there's yet another table and seats :-)
18:52:42 <fjb> Is it usable without the beer? :-)
18:52:51 <planetmaker> fjb: maybe maybe...
18:53:09 <frosch123> Zuu: better use image search :)
18:53:12 <planetmaker> Zuu: party table + 2 benches
18:53:32 <Zuu> For some reason german -> english was the default on google translate. :-)
18:53:52 <planetmaker> ^^ that exact one
18:55:22 <welshdragon> i forget i'm in here :P
18:56:14 <planetmaker> but you returned :-)
18:56:56 <Zuu> Btw, is alcohol sold in regular drug stores (ammerican for the local place where you buy food, electronics etc etc)? Or do one have to visit a liquor store?
18:57:20 <welshdragon> i probably wouldn't have noticed if i gained ops either
18:57:56 <planetmaker> Zuu: you can get it basically everywhere
18:58:06 <planetmaker> groceries, gas stations...
18:58:43 <planetmaker> yeah :-) But you need to have proof of age with you
18:58:50 <planetmaker> (if you look too young)
19:00:05 <Zuu> True, but a id-card is always usefull to have with you.
19:00:48 <planetmaker> but honestly, you don't have to go shopping here for the beverages
19:01:19 <planetmaker> Make a small donation here ;-)
19:01:52 <planetmaker> I'd only expect someone who comes by car to bring drinks or food
19:02:02 <planetmaker> otherwise it's a real hassle
19:06:23 <planetmaker> moin andythenorth
19:07:38 <__ln__> "vielen Dank für Ihre Online-Ticket-Buchung bei www.bahn.de."
19:07:39 <fjb> planetmaker: Where in Braunschweig do I find you?
19:08:20 <fjb> The DB is friendly online. :-)
19:08:33 * andythenorth should start BANDIT
19:09:50 <welshdragon> andythenorth: i thought you were having a break?
19:09:51 <Zuu> Nice, the germans are at least cleaver enough to use the ASL alphabet.
19:10:18 <andythenorth> FIRS goes on....
19:10:37 <andythenorth> I might get to 0.2 in the next few months
19:14:39 <frosch123> but idoubt they also jump in like that :)
19:15:12 <Yexo> did I miss anything important?
19:15:56 <planetmaker> [21:09] <Zuu> Nice, the germans are at least cleaver enough to use the ASL alphabet. <-- which one?
19:16:10 <planetmaker> or rather, what's the "ASL alphabet"?
19:16:14 <Zuu> pm: (Deutschschweizer Gebärdensprache
19:17:27 <Zuu> It's pretty much the same alphabet that they use in ASL which I learned last summer when I went to Canada. In Sweden about half of the letters are different.
19:17:53 <planetmaker> oh, that must suck, if it's so much different
19:18:53 <planetmaker> Yexo: reading that now... your proposal to return the substitute type seems reasonable
19:19:08 <planetmaker> it only is important for selecting this or that station type, right?
19:19:22 <Yexo> it's only used when an AI wants to build a newgrf station
19:19:32 <Yexo> in that case the newgrf selects which station to build
19:19:35 <frosch123> planetmaker: the callback also supplies the cargotype
19:20:21 <frosch123> so likely it is only used to match the graphics of specific industries, which fails in any case with new industries or opengfx
19:20:45 <frosch123> s/it/industry type/
19:22:40 <planetmaker> why would it fail for OpenGFX?
19:23:07 <frosch123> the industries look different? so the station cannot match them
19:23:36 <frosch123> e.g. isr coal station looks like original coal mine
19:24:28 <planetmaker> well... but that's not an issue. At least I never found it one :-)
19:24:37 <planetmaker> It's a station. It may look different
19:24:48 <elho> the game mechanics page has train acceleration formulas giving km/h/day, are there ones that give topspeed at Nth tile? (or data needed for conversion like km/tile and h/day)
19:24:52 <frosch123> artits can come up with a lot non-issues :p
19:25:25 <Zuu> elho, yep it is possible to do the conversion though I don't remember where it is documented.
19:25:39 <Zuu> Other than in some SuperLib function.
19:26:56 <elho> yeah, utsl always works, but might be the slowest solution ;)
19:27:29 <Zuu> It says "X km/h => X/27 tiles/day
19:28:29 <frosch123> Priavte <- i always wonder how people can misspell function names, and misspellt them the same on every occurence
19:29:14 <Zuu> Thanks for the find though.
19:33:16 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
19:42:31 <elho> and 1/(74*2*3/4/192/16) is about 27.676
19:52:07 <SpComb> lolwut, ftp.tt-forums.net
19:52:09 <SpComb> where did you get that
19:56:33 <elho> oh, heh. didn't even see that. blame google ;)
20:13:09 <Yexo> the table+text is not completely accurate, the actual function is to determine the max speed in curves is more difficult
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20:15:15 <elho> has it been written down somewhere?
20:16:26 <Yexo> I think it comes down to this:
20:16:37 <Yexo> num_turns = count the number of turns the vehicle makes
20:16:57 <Yexo> that is 4 in the image on that wiki page
20:17:21 <Yexo> then count the number of wagons between the first and last bend + 1
20:17:41 <Yexo> (there are 10 wagons, all between the first and last curve)
20:18:33 <Yexo> then commpute "value = num_wagon_between_curves / num_turns" rounded down to an integer value
20:18:58 <Yexo> in the image it'd be "value = 11 / 3 = 3"
20:19:09 <Yexo> <Yexo> num_turns = count the number of turns the vehicle makes <- actually substract 1 from the number of turns
20:19:17 <Yexo> then ues value as lookup in the table
20:19:26 <Yexo> value 3 -> 132 km/h for railroad
20:20:09 <Yexo> it'd be nice if you could write that down in a nice way on that wiki page
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20:23:21 <elho> ah, i also see where that 232 - .... formula from the coop guys comes from, the clamp part is what their wiki does not mention
20:25:30 <elho> Yexo: yes, i will note it down for myself anyway (i'm playing a few days a year and surely can not remember that during a longer pause ;)), so i'll be able to contribute it back :)
20:30:55 <elho> Yexo: my goel is to combine that with the acceleration formula, to get cl values that make sense on tiles after station and depot exits, where the required length is capped by the acceleration
20:34:31 <planetmaker> elho: you might also feel to fix the wiki :-)
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20:42:16 <elho> planetmaker: <elho> [...] so i'll be able to contribute it back :) just said so ;)
20:42:38 <planetmaker> :-) sorry, missed it :-)
20:43:07 <fjb> Busy making the next planaet? :-)
20:43:16 <planetmaker> selective reading: first sentence, then last ;-)
20:43:33 <planetmaker> which reminds me...
20:44:10 <planetmaker> I guess I'll resort to the same scheme: abstract and conclusions only ;-)
20:45:11 <frosch123> if they are the same, you do not need to read the rest :p
20:46:22 <VVG> Is there a limit on how many different vehicles sets I can load in one game? I have quite a few train sets and many other grfs, and if I add US set, inside running game, my ships transfrom into some random sprites. I had same problem with George's long vehicles before, though I just gave up Lvs :(
20:46:26 <Zuu> hmm, good reminds me that I should make sure my conclusions are extra good well written in my thesis.
20:46:48 <planetmaker> VVG: then you ignored the big red warning box about changing newgrfs in a running game
20:46:58 <Zuu> And indeed, that's how I approach a long report as well.
20:47:17 <frosch123> and likely you did not enable support for multiple grf sets
20:47:30 <VVG> other sets are working fine
20:47:40 <planetmaker> the warning was there for a reason
20:49:23 <planetmaker> especially in the absense of "enable multiple newgrf sets"
20:49:55 <planetmaker> *newgrf engine sets
20:50:12 <planetmaker> then different sets may overwrite eachother
20:50:21 <planetmaker> which then results in basically a trashed game
20:50:41 <planetmaker> it's not a newgrf fault. It's not an openttd fault
20:52:19 <planetmaker> such destructive interferences may not be majore with two sets, but surely become more and more visible if there are too many
20:52:27 <planetmaker> but there's no hard limit
20:52:54 <planetmaker> it depends upon the individual newgrfs, what they define and expect to find
20:53:03 <VVG> seems i guessed right, it's a pity :(
20:53:16 <planetmaker> what did you guess?
20:53:33 <VVG> that it's a mix of grfs i have that is at fault here
20:54:21 <planetmaker> you need to a) enable "multiple newgrf engine sets" from the main menu and b) select ALL newgrfs you want to use in the game and c) only then start the new game
20:54:38 <planetmaker> then you most probably won't have the problems, even with the very same newgrfs, that you have now
20:54:47 <VVG> they still can conflict :(
20:54:50 <planetmaker> it's all a matter of proper order
20:55:40 <planetmaker> a) b) and c) in that exact order
20:55:46 <planetmaker> you cannot fix your existing savegame
20:56:32 <planetmaker> one might try with reset_engines in the console, but not sure whether it'll help
20:57:51 <planetmaker> hm... maybe it's a good idea to allow changing newgrfs on an existing game only in debug mode :-)
20:58:41 <Ammler> everyone would run openttd in debug mode then :-P
20:58:58 <planetmaker> that's what I fear the result would be
20:59:29 <Ammler> I think, the red warning is more then enough.
20:59:47 <VVG> They still can conflict, even with a,b and being true. :(
21:00:25 <planetmaker> Yes, they can conflict. But MUCH less likely
21:00:51 <VVG> i have two ships that look like info button icon
21:01:02 <planetmaker> a good guideline is though: one trainset, one, two, three road sets, one ship set, on plane set and that's it for vehicles
21:01:45 * elho is happy that he likes the stock gfx better anyway ;P
21:02:06 <planetmaker> VVG: maybe they look that way even without any other newgrf except your ship newgrf?
21:02:36 <planetmaker> and please give me your newgrf list, I'd like to see that :-)
21:03:04 <planetmaker> or maybe your savegame. easiest
21:03:05 <VVG> they look ok with just ship grf
21:04:10 <VVG> depending of grfs loaded stuff looks differently. I noticed such mix ups only with george' lvs (some time ago) and ships right now, though no idea, which ship set it is, i have both fish and newships
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21:07:27 <planetmaker> And do you really use all those newgrf concurrently?
21:10:08 <Belugas> and i'm sure you are fully aware of wheat each and everyone of those grfs are adding to the game, don't you?
21:10:08 <planetmaker> can you give me the savegame?
21:11:09 <planetmaker> though I'm sure I don't have all those newgrs, but still
21:11:13 <Belugas> meanwhile, me goes home
21:11:27 <planetmaker> have a good evening, Belugas
21:11:32 <VVG> i mostly am, since i had to go through all the avaible grfs i have to pick them
21:13:07 <fjb> I suspect the problem is NewShips and NewShips ECS extension together with the multi vehicle sets feature.
21:14:10 <VVG> i once had some industry sprites morphed, after trying to fix long vehicles by trying various combinations of grfs in a running game
21:16:25 <Ammler> you should also try to start with fewer, adding newgrfs during game is quite easier than removing
21:17:55 <fjb> Best is not to change the grfs of a running game at all, unless you really know what you are doing.
21:18:14 <Ammler> in his case, he doesn't :-)
21:19:13 <VVG> hmm, added us set after newly loaded game, now ships look fine
21:22:19 <planetmaker> I don't see any info sprites either
21:23:00 <planetmaker> but indeed: removing newgrf is even worse than adding new ones, which is most often ok
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21:32:19 <planetmaker> interesting. I get the same
21:32:29 <planetmaker> they glitch. heavily
21:33:29 <planetmaker> they didn't always do that...
21:33:49 <VVG> i removed spain set from that list, in a game last screenshot from, and they stopped glitching
21:36:31 <VVG> i guess not many people play with such a long grf list?
21:37:00 <planetmaker> VVG: long lists tend to create problems at one place or another
21:37:36 <planetmaker> But whether many use it or not... hard to tell
21:39:11 <fjb> Long lists are possible if you know what you are doing. Some experimenting and learning from that is helpful. And don't change too many things at once.
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22:11:27 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> tells how reliable it is ;-) <-- weather forecast beyond 3 days is as reliable as betting on a football game...
22:12:38 <fjb> Too many molecules in the air to get their habits sorted out.
22:13:36 <__ln__> I demand pure molecule-free air.
22:27:58 <SmatZ> good night, planetmaker
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23:08:00 <PeterT> interesting hostmask ;-)
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