IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-05-22
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05:39:15 * lohmi is busy looking for cool mines.
05:49:59 <lohmi> they are not generated, neither are powerplants, and I am looking for some option how to enable them. (Using Version 1.0.1 on Ubuntu Lucid, when loading a saved game from V. 0.9xxx, the coal mines are available)
05:51:11 <Terkhen> available industries are changed by your GRF selection
05:51:57 <Terkhen> your current selection may not have coal mines, saved games store their own selection
05:56:02 <andythenorth> are they available in the 'fund industry' menu?
05:56:05 <andythenorth> and which climate?
05:59:37 <lohmi> I use the default climate. I have added some ECS* grfs, and have some industry, including the power plant. Hence, I only have to look for a grf containing coal
06:07:21 <andythenorth> newgrf debug tools == win again :D
06:07:38 <lohmi> I had the vectors. However: The order of them is essential
06:08:04 <lohmi> after moving up town vector and basic vector I have plenty of industry.
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08:50:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r19878 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Fix [FX#3851]: Default vehicle group texts were drawn one pixel too low (sbr).
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09:08:43 <johnny5|> i've been trying to find out how to erase an AI from my game... but can't seem to find it
09:08:49 <johnny5|> is it even possible at all?
09:10:29 <Rubidium> in-game console, stop_ai
09:11:04 <johnny5|> that looks like what i need indeed
09:11:26 <johnny5|> and how do i get the company id? "companies" is only available on lan games
09:11:52 <Rubidium> counting in the ai debug window?
09:11:53 <johnny5|> list_ai gives the available ai's, not the active ai in my game
09:41:23 <andythenorth> Terkhen: dunno if you're planning any FIRS games, but there is now a Lumber Yard in the repo
09:41:39 <andythenorth> I don't have time to start a test game yet :o
09:43:07 <Terkhen> I plan to, once I have time again :P
09:43:28 <Terkhen> I think it will change how I play FIRS
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09:44:42 <andythenorth> I think the same :)
09:52:06 <planetmaker> andythenorth: what does the LumberYard introduce / do?
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09:52:24 <andythenorth> Produces ENSP from Lumber and/or Chemicals
09:52:49 <andythenorth> Another source of ENSP was needed :)
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11:28:05 * andythenorth wonders if he's missing the obvious easy way to animate industry graphics
11:29:05 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on the kind of animation
11:30:02 <andythenorth> in this case...moving an overhead crane
11:30:14 <andythenorth> only needs to change the x-y offsets of the crane sprite
11:30:25 <andythenorth> but that is a *lot* of work
11:30:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose you should look at the ISR stations, they have plenty of animation
11:31:23 <Eddi|zuHause> can't you use a macro that replicates the real sprite with different offsets, and a matching action 2?
11:32:34 <Eddi|zuHause> little pnfo code => lots of nfo code
11:34:14 <andythenorth> probably. I'd need to learn cpp macros :)
11:34:39 <Eddi|zuHause> those are the easiest part of programming ;)
11:34:46 <Eddi|zuHause> simple text replacement
11:36:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess the tricky part here is constant folding, or does grfcodec somehow support expressions in real sprites?
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11:37:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean resolve "3+5" to "8"
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11:54:08 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19879 /trunk/src/engine.cpp: -Codechange: Also hide invalid engines from purchase lists.
11:56:17 <Ammler> (ECS industries are animated too)
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12:15:06 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: unfortunately NFO does not
12:15:15 <planetmaker> Might be a clear case to rather use NML :-P
12:16:44 <planetmaker> the new grf language :-)
12:17:03 <planetmaker> it once was meant to mean NFO meta language
12:17:16 <planetmaker> But actually it meanwhile writes the grfs directly. Even with png as graphics input
12:19:50 <planetmaker> but all actions are supported
12:20:00 <planetmaker> including varaction2
12:26:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19880 /trunk/ (bin/ai/regression/regression.txt src/ai/api/ai_engine.cpp): -Fix: [NoAI] AIEngine::IsValidEngine() and AIEngine::IsBuildable() returned false positives. Especially wagons of unavailable railtypes were reported available.
12:27:28 <peter1138> hmm, you still have to supply the 'cargo id' of varaction2s?
12:27:52 <peter1138> or are you using C2/A2 just because?
12:28:20 <peter1138> ah, just because, it looks like
12:28:27 <peter1138> using nicer names further down
12:28:36 <planetmaker> yep. It just has to be unique
12:29:34 <peter1138> can you do a spriteset with discrete png files?
12:29:53 <planetmaker> _that_ I think might not work
12:30:01 <planetmaker> I'm not sure though
12:30:18 <planetmaker> nor do I actually think that it's a big limitation :-)
12:30:29 <planetmaker> And mind that it's still somewhere alpha stage :-)
12:31:04 <planetmaker> I wouldn't really split the 8 views of a single vehicle into different files
12:31:48 <planetmaker> but I might want to do that with the openttd gui graphics.
12:38:24 <Alberth> planetmaker: you happen to have an example of a town names nml source?
12:39:22 <planetmaker> Alberth: I don't. I'm not sure it exists anywhere
12:44:07 <Alberth> unfortunately, the parser rules prvoide not much clues what is being parsed with the rules
12:45:05 <SmatZ> nice, do you use some special tool for drawing it?
12:46:06 <SmatZ> I didn't know this is possible in LaTeX :)
12:46:33 <Mazur> Lots of things re possible in LaTeX.
12:47:16 <Alberth> although I did have a discussion with the local LaTeX guru in our group about making these things possible in a LaTeX package without further tools
12:48:53 <Alberth> unfortunately, that falls in the 'friday afternoon' projects department, where little progress is made
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13:12:52 <andythenorth> yorick: write something in python to output sprite recolor tables compatible with 2CC
13:13:40 <andythenorth> with input as some kind of array of pairs mapping old:new values
13:17:05 <yorick> that would be print "00 * 257 00 " + ' '.join([hex(i)[2:] for i in arr.values()]) I think
13:18:20 <andythenorth> now it just has to be made to work for all combinations of 1CC and 2CC :P
13:18:31 <yorick> but I'm not sure if arr.values would be any sorted
13:32:13 <Alberth> just throw a sorted() around it :)
13:32:46 <Alberth> also the [ and ] are not needed with more recent pythons
13:36:17 <yorick> Alberth: it's a bit clearer
13:37:45 <Alberth> '%x' % i does not print the '0x'
13:38:13 <Alberth> but there are still too many parentheses
13:46:13 <andythenorth> well it would be a nice micro-project to have on the devzone
13:46:17 <andythenorth> or as a web service....
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13:53:11 <Alberth> a custom solution is about 10 lines of python that you use one time, not sure it is even worth to save such code.
13:53:24 <Alberth> extending nml would be more logical :p
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14:06:57 <frosch123> what do you want to print recolour tables for?
14:13:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19881 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#3827]: pay for the rail/road when constructing tunnels and bridges
14:22:12 <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm bored of drawing load sprites for dump trucks etc
14:22:54 <frosch123> so you want to recolour cargos and 2cc at the same time
14:23:12 <andythenorth> well I want to keep the existing 2CC support
14:23:16 <frosch123> by supplying 256 recolour sprites per cargo
14:23:33 <andythenorth> which I do *not* want to write by hand :P
14:23:51 <frosch123> didn't uwe post some tool for that?
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14:25:26 <andythenorth> I started trying to understand it a few months ago, but didn't win
14:25:51 <andythenorth> I only mentioned it today because yorick was looking for a project :)
14:26:16 * andythenorth goes out for a bit
14:29:02 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... something's wrong with the audio
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15:02:14 <_Ben_> Would someone be able to give me a pointer to the place where it's possible to see a set of sprites with image-number-replacement in a table layout...think it was on openttdcoop...can't find it
15:06:05 * SirSquidness mutters something about pointers under his breath
15:07:25 <_Ben_> anyway, anything where where I could see the exsisting openGFX sprites without having to extract them would be handy if theres such a place. Or just a written list even...just need to know some numbers
15:08:09 <Rubidium> _Ben_: have you tried looking at the "obvious" places already?
15:08:20 <Rubidium> like e.g. the OpenGFX project page?
15:09:24 <_Ben_> rubidium: obviously I've looked for the obvious, rather than scenic pictures of north west cumbria for example, but what is obvious to me is not what is obvious to someone more in the know
15:10:12 <Rubidium> anyhow, I've given you a pointer to the place that has a pointer to the place you're looking for :)
15:10:43 <_Ben_> yeah, thanks, I am looking!
15:12:35 <_Ben_> ah ok: been there, again not exactly sure what it is I need
15:13:24 <planetmaker> reading the list of links might give pointers
15:13:31 <planetmaker> but what you need - how can we know?
15:14:02 <_Ben_> yeah I have, I thought it was the script which takes me to sprite objectives, but that seems to list the none complete sprite, rather than just a group of sprites
15:14:16 <_Ben_> I'm just looking at thw water/canal sprites in general at the sec
15:14:20 <planetmaker> there are no non-complete sprites
15:14:47 <Rubidium> _Ben_: "Script for browsing sprites"?
15:15:00 <planetmaker> only sprites in need of updating ;-)
15:15:03 <frosch123> maybe the ingame spritealigner?
15:15:43 * Ammler hopes, _Ben_ does not again try to get sprite number from extra grf ;-)
15:16:06 <_Ben_> the possibilities are endless
15:16:38 <Ammler> with the upcoming frosch123 patch, that will again change :-P
15:17:08 <planetmaker> good point. I wanted to save that one
15:17:46 <_Ben_> Rubidium: speaks for itself really
15:18:20 <_Ben_> so, let's not talk about what doesn't exsist, ...let's make this simple: canal sprites - where are they?
15:18:46 <frosch123> that is in the extra grf
15:19:59 <Jupix> i love the way one of if not the most important 32bit artist comes here asking for help and gets the most confusing, useless and rude answers i've seen since.. well, the last time he asked anything
15:20:14 <planetmaker> _Ben_: in general finding things is as difficult as to search for that on the sprite browser page for what you're looking for...
15:20:32 <planetmaker> at least in the case of canal sprites
15:21:03 <Ammler> Jupix: the only rude person are you right now, imo.
15:22:06 <frosch123> something is wrong with my calendar
15:22:35 <Eddi|zuHause> on my calendar it's saturday, 22 may
15:22:35 <Ammler> Jupix: help us improving the answers instead of commenting the people itself...
15:23:29 <planetmaker> Jupix: then tell me what was rude?
15:23:49 <glx> anyway there's no fixed sprite number for action 5
15:23:52 <Jupix> here's my suggestion: answer his question without using technical terms, or if using such, explaining them there and then, and not link to webdocuments where he has to use his valuable "artisty time" reading up on the grf/newgrf/extras-project/any other spec
15:24:07 <glx> it all depends on the grf implementing the action 5
15:24:10 <planetmaker> the link is right on the projects main page. The feature he looks for is right found by looking for it. And he was even given the links and file to look for
15:24:11 <Ammler> _Ben_: use the 32bpp-extra grf please (1000 times told)
15:24:48 <planetmaker> ah, Jupix, so you value his time more than frosch's Rubidium's or mine? Interesting
15:25:33 <planetmaker> I might see time preciousnes differently, especially if my own is involved
15:25:40 <_Ben_> Ammler: 3 times by my count, but one day your statement will become true I'm sure.
15:25:56 <Yexo> Weeknie: I've had the same problems as you (grfcodec not recognizing commandline options), but IIRC it was not only grfcodec but all programs that didn't read commandline args anymore. Also I don't remember what the solution was unfortunatly
15:26:00 <_Ben_> Ammler: and I'm already looking...I have that file in front of me already......andddd....
15:26:12 <Weeknie> Hmm, well, that's not the case here
15:26:17 <Ammler> that file could indeed be a bit better readable
15:26:22 <Weeknie> Even grfmerge and diff seem to work right (atleast one of the 2)
15:26:23 <tycoondemon> how do I let openttd save the onfo in somewhere els then %USER%/OpenTDD ?
15:27:24 <Jupix> planetmaker: it's not my business to assign to value to anyone's time, just saying that he needs to spend his making great graphics instead of figuring out how the technical side works in order to get graphics done
15:27:25 <frosch123> see readme, section 4 or 5
15:27:51 <planetmaker> Jupix: we all have to look up the things, too. So if we tell him where to find it, it's quite obvious.
15:28:20 <_Ben_> planetmaker: it really doesn't matter who is contributing what, making things as easy as possible for anyone is gernally considered good manners. It's just about working out what a suitable amount of time is...yes some people should maybe be sent straight off to google, but clearly I didn't just roll out of bed and start typing, if I come here...I am at a point at which the search engine and or other people I've spoken to havn't helped.
15:28:49 <planetmaker> _Ben_: nor were you pointed to google.
15:28:58 <Jupix> you obviously know how the thing works, so you're more efficient at finding the answer than he is ... therefore it makes sense for you to do it, instead of him ... if you don't want to do that, that's fine
15:29:16 <_Ben_> meh, not worth debating, I'm appreiating yout help Ammler...checking it out
15:29:17 <Ammler> but the source of 32bpp-extra is bad, the numbers don't match
15:29:29 <planetmaker> quite not worth it
15:29:53 <Weeknie> yexo, does your grfcodec now work on the windows commandline or on the msys one?
15:30:11 <Yexo> I mostly use the cygwin bash shell
15:30:19 <Yexo> I haven't tested it on the windows commandline
15:30:28 <Weeknie> So bash shell under windows, ok;)
15:30:30 <Yexo> but it also works on the msys shell
15:31:02 <Weeknie> You really don't remember your fix?:(
15:31:05 <Yexo> I've never tried to compile it myself though
15:31:33 <Weeknie> Well I'm thinking it's just grfcodec not understanding the msys command line arguments
15:31:50 <yorick> grfcodec used to work on msys for me
15:32:35 <Weeknie> And I presume you didn't get the mkdir errors yorick?
15:33:44 <yorick> I fixed the mkdir errors
15:34:28 <Weeknie> I just pasted the exe again
15:34:29 <yorick> (just enable the macro on top of the file :P)
15:34:31 <Weeknie> And now it's suddenly
15:34:56 <Weeknie> Ok, let's test it out first
15:36:04 <Yexo> ^^ that might be the reason why I don't remember how I fixed it :p
15:36:30 <Weeknie> Wow, that was an easy fix
15:36:37 <Weeknie> I put it in the minGW bin folder, instead of the msys one
15:36:54 <Weeknie> One other thing to test, the path var
15:37:02 <yorick> I put it in the local folder
15:37:35 <Weeknie> Nah, it's not the path var
15:37:43 <Weeknie> Both bin's are in there (quite obviously but well)
15:41:35 <Weeknie> Didn't really notice that, I thought then thing was already executing that, and thus was wondering why the rule wasn't applied
15:41:45 <Weeknie> thanks planetmaker, seems you can help people after all:P
15:41:54 <Weeknie> (sorry, couldn't help myself)
15:42:05 <Eddi|zuHause> all people get the help they deserve :p
15:42:29 <Eddi|zuHause> only occasionally some people get way more help than they deserve
15:43:05 <Weeknie> WHOHOOO dutchtrainset decoded
15:43:40 <Ammler> search for "05 08" (Action5 Type 8)
15:44:43 <Weeknie> Wow, now I can finally get on with learning NFO lol
15:47:42 <planetmaker> Weeknie: I can hardly point you to "search my frigging harddisc"
15:47:44 <_Ben_> Ammler: thanks; am I correct in assumeing the sprite 'name' I need to use is that number at the start of each line? in this case 1174?
15:48:11 <Weeknie> planetmaker, I said I was joking, no need to go into it, though sorry
15:48:29 <Ammler> this is a correct numbered nfo and 32bpp-extra is supposed not to change the numbers anymore
15:48:40 <Weeknie> grfcodec automagically renumbers the lines of the nfo file if you have renum installed right?
15:48:44 <Ammler> openttdw.grf and opengfx does that
15:48:54 <glx> Weeknie: renum is for the other way :)
15:48:55 <planetmaker> Weeknie: no. (nfo)renum does that
15:49:08 <planetmaker> it's a different programme. It also needs to be called separately
15:49:26 <glx> write nfo, run renum, run grfcodec
15:49:34 <Weeknie> Ooh wait, right, that was the makefile that came with the ogfx+ package
15:49:37 <planetmaker> you might want to get one of those projects from the devzone.
15:49:48 <planetmaker> though, granted, it's a bit hidden in the Makefiles :-P
15:50:04 <planetmaker> Weeknie: yeah. But ogfx+ doesn't need either anymore :-)
15:50:12 <planetmaker> but the Makefile can handle both, nfo and nml
15:50:26 <Weeknie> Not really planning on using the makefile
15:50:28 <planetmaker> if the proper setting in Makefile.config is set
15:50:46 <planetmaker> like PROJECT_TYPE = NML or so
15:51:19 <planetmaker> for starting to understand things, not using the Makefile might be a good idea.
15:51:25 <planetmaker> You'll later value it the more :-P
15:51:38 <Ammler> _Ben_: and this isn't a OpenGFX issue, it is a extra grf issue, you need to do that for both sets only once
15:51:47 <Weeknie> just running make to make the grf does help yeah
15:51:53 <Weeknie> Instead of typing the complete line every time
15:51:58 <Ammler> no need to crawl openttdw.grf
15:52:01 <Weeknie> Or even multiple lines, with renum and such
15:52:10 <planetmaker> Weeknie: especially also packing documentation and stuff
15:52:26 <planetmaker> or copying it to the grf folder so that I can test it :-9
15:52:28 <Weeknie> What, documentation, who cares about that?:P
15:52:43 <planetmaker> Weeknie: then at least license ;-)
15:52:50 <planetmaker> credit whom credit is due
15:52:53 <Weeknie> I guess I should care about that
15:53:02 <Alberth> What Python version is assumed with NML ?
15:53:15 <planetmaker> Alberth: 2.5- <3.0
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15:53:37 <planetmaker> IIRC 2.4 might work, but has troubles with *something*
15:53:43 <planetmaker> I think ternary expressions
15:54:04 <Yexo> 2.4 doesn't work as it has no ternary operator
15:54:14 <Yexo> a = 3 if x else 4 <- that doesn't work in python 2.4
15:54:30 <Alberth> hmm, ply does not work although it is installed in a 2.5 dir
15:55:46 <Yexo> Alberth: what error message do you get?
15:56:11 <Yexo> do you have pil (=python-imaging) and ply (python-ply) installed?
15:56:14 <Alberth> import of ply.lex fails, but it is an error in my setup
15:58:36 <Yexo> of course you do, sorry ;)
15:58:49 <Yexo> (I did read multiple mails from you on the ply mailing list)
16:00:34 <Weeknie> Those numbers in the pcx file get inserted by grfdocec I presume?
16:00:43 <Weeknie> (numbering each sprite that's in there)
16:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the numbers are also ignored on recoding
16:01:42 <planetmaker> Alberth: the GUI guide is a good thing. So do you think I should change new game things also to purple?
16:01:55 <planetmaker> instead of the brown as is now?
16:02:07 <planetmaker> I think it looks quite nice with brown :-)
16:02:18 <planetmaker> let's see for comparison...
16:02:26 <Weeknie> Eddi|zuHause, I guess that's why you have to specify each sprite's coordinates:P
16:03:00 <Alberth> I was thinking to make a colour for game control, options & settings are not exactly the same imho, but where exactly the border is, is not clear
16:03:11 <Alberth> (like brown for game control)
16:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Weeknie: yes, only the stuff in the .nfo counts... you can get sprites from multiple files, or multiply a sprite from the same coordinates
16:03:37 <planetmaker> Alberth: the difference between game control (what's that?) and adv. options is rather marginal, if at all
16:03:57 <planetmaker> what are newgrfs? Options? Game control?
16:04:31 <planetmaker> The only thing really which IMHO can be distinguished is options and settings
16:04:50 <planetmaker> as in options = user things not influencing the game (not saved in the map) and settings (= saved within map)
16:05:10 <planetmaker> as such newgrf+AI+adv. settings+newgame = settings
16:05:12 <Yexo> planetmaker: and where do gui settings/options belong?
16:05:23 <Alberth> hmm, game control is too subtle perhaps
16:05:23 <Ammler> maybe "network" settings
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16:05:32 <planetmaker> and most of current options (base sets,...) are options
16:05:52 <planetmaker> Yexo: there where you currently select base sets, language and alike
16:06:05 <planetmaker> IMHO they should be moved away from the adv. settings
16:06:25 <planetmaker> It could as well be a multi-tab window
16:07:23 <planetmaker> Alberth: "networking"... what would that comprise in your eyes?
16:07:41 <Alberth> Yexo: how to run tests for nml ?
16:07:51 <Alberth> planetmaker: MP stuff
16:07:52 <Yexo> there are no tests currently :)
16:08:12 <Alberth> ok, so I can break things without any one noticing :)
16:08:22 <planetmaker> hm, yes, I'd put that in options, too, though. But yeah... might make sense
16:08:40 <Alberth> planetmaker: not everything is an option :p
16:08:41 <planetmaker> so there's three things: map, networking, and (local) preferences
16:08:55 <planetmaker> that's why I'd call it preferences ;-)
16:09:12 <Alberth> planetmaker: you have a working nml source?
16:09:36 <planetmaker> Alberth: ogfxplus
16:09:50 <planetmaker> Or you mean a NML checkout?
16:09:53 <planetmaker> Well, I should have both
16:10:21 <Alberth> a checkout is managable :)
16:11:38 <planetmaker> Mind that ogfxplus is so far quite simple newgrf only
16:11:48 <planetmaker> Only few vehicles and a bit of livery override
16:12:51 <Weeknie> Was just going to ask for the link because my http seems to be failing
16:13:03 <Ammler> planetmaker: forces me to add a new rewrite?
16:13:14 <planetmaker> hm, did I get it wrong? :-)
16:13:23 <Ammler> how many different urls do you like to use to get the source?
16:13:35 <_Ben_> Ammler: yeah, thanks for that, sorry I vanished. I've just converted the grf so I have a .png..that took a mission cause I havn't done that for about 6 years. I've just renamed a sprite according to that list and it has worked...is that fluke and will this change, or...so long as I have the newgrf enabled will it always work with those numbers?
16:13:47 <planetmaker> ^ hg checkout link
16:14:00 <planetmaker> Ammler: actually I'd like to have dev there instead of mz
16:14:05 <planetmaker> sounds way more logical. Or hg
16:14:19 <planetmaker> and then without the hg in front of the project name
16:14:22 <Weeknie> Hmm, planetmaker, planetmaker, do you have the svn url please?
16:14:32 <planetmaker> it's not a svn repository
16:14:49 <Weeknie> Oh ok, then I"ll use hg
16:15:44 <planetmaker> it won't even resolve
16:16:18 <Ammler> yeah, there is no org-repos toplevel domain
16:17:40 <Ammler> _Ben_: it worked because you mainly replaced original base set graphcis (trg*.grf)
16:17:58 <Ammler> those will never change
16:18:20 <_Ben_> Ammler: I just replaced 1 sprite, it was a ''''''lock''''' sprite
16:18:35 <Ammler> but the openttdw.grf and ogfxe-extra.grf does change from time to time with new features
16:19:22 <planetmaker> I just compile ogfxplus and it works.
16:19:25 <planetmaker> Try a make remake
16:19:50 <Ammler> _Ben_: yes, openttdw.grf doesn't change that often, and if you were lucky, the sprite you replaced is somewhere in front of the grf
16:20:20 <Ammler> so chances are high, they don't change also if something in the end of the grf changes...
16:20:52 <Ammler> opengfx-extra changes a lot also without new features, simply because it is still in development
16:21:45 <Ammler> with 32bpp-extra you don't need to care about opengfx and new openttd features
16:21:54 <planetmaker> Alberth: somehow that backtrace seems familiar to me, though
16:21:59 <planetmaker> But I can't reproduce it
16:22:30 <Weeknie> erm, little note, my msys is complaining about grep not having an option --o, does it exist under linux or is this a fault in the makeFile of OGFX+?
16:23:17 <_Ben_> Ammler: think it will surfice for simple sprite alignment and testing, and as a simple way of seeing how sprites build up a building/bridge etc, which is what I intiailly needed, so I'll head off and work with that. Thanks for the help
16:23:18 <planetmaker> Weeknie: it's you not having the grep which I expect to have :-)
16:23:54 <planetmaker> -o, --only-matching
16:23:55 <planetmaker> Show only the part of a matching line that matches PATTERN.
16:24:09 <planetmaker> grep (GNU grep) 2.5.1
16:24:18 <Weeknie> Well I suppose the makefile isn't going to work under minGW/msys then
16:25:27 <Alberth> lang/default.txt doesn't seem to be included. You probably have a smarter command than what I enter at the command line :)
16:25:32 <Weeknie> Anyone here happen to have the pcx file of a simple read vehicle? (just one)
16:28:51 <Yexo> Alberth: it should be lang/default.lng
16:29:31 <Yexo> Weeknie: there should be some small pcx files in ogfx+
16:29:51 <Weeknie> Well, 1. their trains, 2. there's 8 of em
16:30:12 <planetmaker> which are per definition road vehicles
16:30:14 <Weeknie> Erm, well, actually looking or busses, should've said that
16:30:36 <planetmaker> tram and bus are nothing different in NFO
16:30:43 <planetmaker> except the tram flag
16:31:12 <Weeknie> It's fine, I found something, I got what I needed:P
16:31:46 <Alberth> Thanks Yexo, I was running nml2info in the wrong directory
16:31:55 <Ammler> Jupix: do you still use openttdw.grf sprite numbers somewhere?
16:32:30 <planetmaker> Alberth: that's what the makefile is for :-P
16:33:00 <Alberth> yeah, but it assumes nml2info is in the PATH, and 'nml' is in PYTHONPATH, which is not true here
16:34:01 <Alberth> also, I cannot tell nml2nfo to use ../../ogfxplus/hg_trunk/lang/default.lng
16:34:17 <planetmaker> Alberth: easy workaround: create a Makefile.local
16:34:19 <Alberth> hmm, name is also wrong, should be nml2grf
16:34:29 <planetmaker> NML=relative/path/to/nml2nfo
16:34:43 <planetmaker> ^ only line in Makefile.local
16:34:56 <Ammler> Alberth: you can set those before PATH="$PATH:... ; PYTH....
16:36:20 <Ammler> isn't that common with every python app?
16:36:21 <Alberth> I don't like having dev directories in my $PATH very much
16:36:50 <Alberth> at work I use combinator to solve those problems, but it does not work with hg
16:37:14 <Ammler> in this case I would symply symlink the wrapper to ~/bin
16:37:45 <Yexo> Alberth: nml2nfo is from when it couldn't yet write grf files, it can still write nfo files
16:38:00 <Yexo> and in the future also nml (from nfo/grf), so even nml2grf would be obsolete then
16:38:34 * Alberth shoots Ammler for messing in /usr/local
16:38:51 <Ammler> what is /usr/local for else?
16:39:10 <Alberth> system-wide installs by root imho
16:39:29 <Alberth> hardly useful if you want to mess with the nml source code
16:40:00 <Ammler> ~/bin doesn't work then?
16:42:14 <Alberth> then the 'nml' python dir must also move to ~/bin.
16:42:29 <Ammler> don't think so, that should be handled by the wrapper
16:42:45 <planetmaker> Alberth: really... just use Makefile.local :-)
16:43:01 <Alberth> trust me, I program Python for 7 years or so :)
16:43:19 <Alberth> planetmaker: that also fails, and I don't feel like finding out why
16:43:19 <Ammler> Alberth: I am no dev, but here, python tools work without that
16:43:37 <planetmaker> Alberth: yes. If they're in the path
16:43:57 <planetmaker> if you don't want to add it to the path (as you said), you need to tell where it is found, right?
16:44:00 <Ammler> nml isn't the only one I use that way...
16:44:40 <Alberth> I made two soft-links to nml and nml2info, and it works now. Good enough for now.
16:45:08 <Alberth> Perhaps I should hack combinator to work with hg :p
16:46:01 <Ammler> you tried without symlinking nml?
16:47:07 <Alberth> Ammler: python imports relative to the main script file, ie nml2info. So if I move that script, I must also move 'nml', or add it to the PYTHONPATH of course
16:47:17 <Yexo> didn't planetmaker have the same problem that it only worked after symlinking nml2nfo with a full (non-relative) path?
16:47:39 <Ammler> Alberth: that is how you think it should be, my question was, did you try without symlinking "nml"?
16:48:03 <Ammler> because I wonder, why that works here without
16:48:37 <Ammler> I would guess, python does assume the nml path relative to the script
16:48:54 <Ammler> (following the symlink)
16:51:00 <andythenorth> so....I was thinking the other day about whether the GUI should use rounded corners. I thought "that's not TTD style"
16:51:06 <andythenorth> then I found these TTO screenshots :)
16:51:06 <Alberth> Ammler: you are correct, it probably follows the symlink. Nice
16:52:12 <planetmaker> andythenorth: quite ugly from the screenshot tbh :-)
16:52:18 <Alberth> it also has grey texture background
16:52:26 <andythenorth> yes, it's not pretty
16:52:44 <andythenorth> but round is easier on the eye than square. I wondered if it was time to jump that way....
16:53:40 <Alberth> \o/ I did not break ogfxplus with my parser nml changes!
16:53:59 <andythenorth> is the actual GUI drawn from something like fill shapes, or is it placing sprites?
16:54:16 <andythenorth> (e.g. window boxes, title bars etc)
16:54:40 <andythenorth> or I should read the code :P
16:55:46 <planetmaker> andythenorth: both
16:56:04 <andythenorth> where is the drawing code? (I'm searching, but...)
16:56:56 <planetmaker> all icons are sprites which are placed
16:57:15 <planetmaker> and honestly: round windows in OpenTTD: no!
16:57:54 <andythenorth> planetmaker: what's the objection....other than 16 years of history?
16:58:10 <planetmaker> loosing character
17:11:19 <andythenorth> I seem not to have broken something that should have broken :P
17:12:05 * andythenorth isn't smart enough to adapt DrawColourMappingRect to draw rounded rects
17:13:58 <andythenorth> so for 4px radius, on the first column of a rounded rect, miss out the first 3px...?
17:15:27 * andythenorth goes back to things he can do
17:20:03 * andythenorth concludes that chipping 1px off the outer corners of each window would be nice
17:20:08 <andythenorth> 2px would be gross
17:22:09 * planetmaker just put a perfectly round Quiche into the oven
17:23:09 <planetmaker> :-O @ nml patch list
17:23:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker: how many pix radius?
17:23:45 <andythenorth> GUI style page on wiki is nice
17:24:07 <planetmaker> OSx seems to shave off three pixels
17:24:28 <planetmaker> but only in the top
17:24:34 <andythenorth> I meant how many px radius is the quiche :P
17:24:40 <planetmaker> the bottom edges are perfectly square
17:24:58 <planetmaker> ah :-) I'd say a radius of 1000 pixels, if I took a photo
17:25:27 <planetmaker> But I rather eat it than take photos of it :-P
17:25:43 <andythenorth> I concluded that there will be much resistance to rounded corners in the OTTD gui, even if I could figure out how to implement it...
17:26:09 * andythenorth looks at some town buildings for FIRS
17:26:19 <planetmaker> make they cylinders :-P
17:26:48 <andythenorth> time to learn how to code houses
17:26:49 <Alberth> planetmaker: something with the patches?
17:27:11 <Alberth> s/something/something wrong/
17:27:21 <planetmaker> Alberth: not that I know
17:27:44 <Alberth> you looked a bit amazed to me
17:27:51 <planetmaker> I'm just surprised and delighted to have yet another person working on it who in my metric knows what he's doing
17:28:08 <Alberth> as long as it is not nfo :p
17:28:33 <Alberth> or nml, for that matter
17:34:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think houses are much different from industries
17:34:56 <andythenorth> they are simpler if anything
17:35:09 <andythenorth> hmmm....meanwhile some of the company colours clash horribly the FIRS graphics
17:35:13 <planetmaker> they are simpler, yes
17:35:29 * andythenorth ponders a way to restrict the range of company colours
17:35:50 <andythenorth> but I don't understand it
17:36:16 <Eddi|zuHause> in which way restrict range?
17:37:07 <andythenorth> prevent some company colours being used - presumably by remapping them to another colour
17:37:40 <andythenorth> the appearance sucks in certain cases
17:37:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's the user's fault?
17:38:07 <andythenorth> no, company colour is chosen randomly on a per-industry basis
17:38:45 <andythenorth> purple notably sucks in some industries :|
17:38:59 <Eddi|zuHause> so you want to replace one company colour for another, for industries
17:39:24 * andythenorth feels the lack of a (current) FIRS collaborator :P
17:39:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what if player builds an industry and wants it in his colour?
17:39:32 <andythenorth> that's out of scope
17:39:41 <andythenorth> as it's not currently possible
17:39:49 <andythenorth> I could code for it in nfo however
17:39:52 <Alberth> (07:31:19 PM) planetmaker: he? <- nml the program is different from nml the language
17:40:06 <Eddi|zuHause> afair founded industries automatically get company colour
17:40:28 <planetmaker> Alberth: sure. But nml the language is not that bad :-)
17:40:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't usually found industries, but i read that somewere...
17:40:42 <andythenorth> nah, it's random
17:40:59 <andythenorth> it could be otherwise using nfo, but it would again need recolor sprites
17:41:30 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... where the hell did i read this...
17:41:47 <andythenorth> if it's on the wiki, correct it :)
17:42:01 <andythenorth> I tested it in game, it's not the case
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17:43:48 <Yexo> Alberth: do you have an account at the openttdcoop devzone?
17:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... somehow the soundtrack of avatar has similarities with the one from pirates of the caribbean
17:45:37 <andythenorth> designing what I need to code looks a bit harder
17:45:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r19882 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 5 changes by josesun
17:45:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 7 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 5 changes by jpx_
17:45:53 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 5 changes by glx
17:45:53 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: greek - 32 changes by fumantsu
17:46:07 <Eddi|zuHause> what does "rousing" mean?
17:47:02 <Yexo> andythenorth: there is a callback to chose the industry colour
17:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... not entirely sure how to put that word into context...
17:47:45 <andythenorth> Yexo: how very handy :)
17:48:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: are there lots of marching major chords?
17:48:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: planetmaker...need some opinions on FIRS design
17:49:00 <Mazur> Rousing: energizing, getting your blood flowing.
17:49:06 <planetmaker> yes, I'm listening :-)
17:49:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then you've come to the right place ;)
17:49:33 <andythenorth> using houses rather than industries for things that locate in town and accept cargo (general store etc)
17:49:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: depends
17:50:00 <planetmaker> Houses can come and go
17:50:09 <planetmaker> though that can be configured, too
17:50:16 <andythenorth> they can be protected
17:50:17 <planetmaker> but they cannot be built by the player
17:50:35 <planetmaker> thus it's an industry which neither a scenario designer nor a player can build
17:50:35 <andythenorth> I think I can ensure that at least one is provided in every town of population > x
17:50:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with protecting them is that the "problem" of ever rising numbers of shops does not disappear
17:50:46 <planetmaker> you can ensure that at most
17:51:09 <planetmaker> but IIRC not at least one
17:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with normal houses is that the disappear and pop up somewhere else pretty frequently
17:51:46 <Eddi|zuHause> and _please_ don't go the way of the TTRS fuel station
17:51:50 <planetmaker> I think one of the biggest problems is that it makes scenario design / industry placement basically impossible
17:51:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that only accepts 6/8
17:52:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that needs a house picker for the scenario editor
17:52:39 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes :-)
17:52:50 <planetmaker> are you writing one? :-P
17:53:12 <Eddi|zuHause> you know my stand on GUI code :p
17:53:15 <andythenorth> what is the problem with TTRS fuel station?
17:53:37 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you need two of them in vincinity, which is _extremely_ difficult when they constantly move about
17:53:53 <andythenorth> what, one doesn't provide 8/8 acceptance?
17:54:11 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's 6/8, which is completely stupid
17:54:32 <andythenorth> should a fuel station even exist?
17:54:50 <Eddi|zuHause> well, something that accepts fuel needs to exist
17:54:59 <Eddi|zuHause> when the GRF provides fuel
17:54:59 <andythenorth> currently all fuel oil on the map will get delivered to the Machine Shop to get more ENSP
17:55:14 <andythenorth> judging by most players feedback so far anyway
17:55:25 <Eddi|zuHause> PBI has fuel tank industry as a fuel sink
17:55:26 <planetmaker> might be nice to have petrol stations for that, yes
17:55:36 <planetmaker> and fuel depots, yes
17:55:51 <planetmaker> But fuel depots can be built by the player as station.
17:55:59 <planetmaker> From where it is then trucked to the petrol stations
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17:56:16 <andythenorth> I'm planning to draw some more fuel depot sprites for ISR one day
17:56:43 <andythenorth> meanwhile....the problem with town cargos in FIRS is that there is no point transporting them
17:56:58 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i don't know many "fuel depots" around here...
17:57:16 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: me neither
17:57:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't really have any insight into the distribution system of the oil refinery
17:57:34 <planetmaker> but there certainly are some. At least near ... refineries
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17:58:01 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can consider those to be _IN_ the refinery ;)
17:58:03 <andythenorth> fuel is often shipped in bulk (train, barge) or by pipeline to local depots where it is stored / transloaded into trucks
17:58:10 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I'd guess in Leuna or so there are certainly some kind of depots. Whether fuel or not - dunno
17:58:36 <andythenorth> so town houses is *not* a clear choice for FIRS?
17:58:59 <andythenorth> I don't need to free up the industry slots, there are plenty at the moment
17:59:08 <Eddi|zuHause> all i ever witnessed is that a shitload of trucks get loaded in the refinery, i guess they directly circle the fuel stations in the area then
17:59:16 <Eddi|zuHause> without any intermediate depot
17:59:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: really, it depends on whether you want to have them destroyable by the player or the town
18:00:43 <planetmaker> I guess one could live with it quite well, if they're not the only fuel sink
18:00:44 <Eddi|zuHause> both variants have their own problems
18:10:24 <Alberth> Yexo: created one today
18:12:01 <Alberth> although I seem to be thrown out of the web interface when I disable google-analytics.com access
18:12:10 <Yexo> I added you as developer now, feel free to push all those patches (although the whitespace ones conflict with my last commit)
18:12:23 <Yexo> I just pushed the first patch before you reacted
18:14:41 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: personally I don't really care about destruction. But I don't play MP and I don't design scenarios,
18:15:34 <andythenorth> even the original game doesn't give me much of a design cue
18:15:44 <andythenorth> goods and food need houses, water needs a water tower
18:20:58 <planetmaker> the idea might be: industry=needs special building, house=can be accepted by any house (like goods + food are needed where people live, petrol only at petrol stations)
18:21:08 <planetmaker> alas... a bit wavy argument ;-)
18:22:24 <andythenorth> so the general store only exists because I don't want to patch every house to accept food :)
18:23:32 <planetmaker> hm... that's a climate thing with houses, unfortunately. At least with default ones.
18:23:35 * Alberth needs a openttdcoop dev admin
18:23:42 <planetmaker> what do you need?
18:23:58 <Alberth> hg push gave 'authorization failed'
18:24:08 <planetmaker> what did you push to?
18:24:32 *** [com]buster has joined #openttd
18:24:34 <planetmaker> :-) I meant the URL
18:25:28 <andythenorth> modifying default houses might not be too bad, especially if scripted somehow....
18:25:36 <andythenorth> ....but then there are also house sets to consider
18:25:49 <andythenorth> I would rather just have shops / houses accept food directly
18:25:59 <Alberth> so default houses is not a set?
18:26:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: modfying default houses is a very bad idea
18:26:36 <andythenorth> what are the problems?
18:26:42 <frosch123> well, unless you add parameters to disable that
18:27:06 <frosch123> just that you create a monolithic grf, which cannot be uses with other housesets
18:27:38 <andythenorth> we could provide for that with checks, but then (a) FIRS cargo chains might break (b) it's a lot of code spaghetti
18:27:53 <frosch123> Alberth: doesn't it have to https for push?
18:28:15 <planetmaker> oh, yes, that should be needed
18:28:21 <Alberth> I don't know, I was hoping a openttdcoop dev admin would know :)
18:28:37 <planetmaker> try the URL you gave but https
18:28:41 <frosch123> iirc that was written in the wiki page, which was posted yesterday
18:29:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what exactly is the problem with having 'lots' of stores in a town? Does it obliterate passenger production / acceptance?
18:30:13 <Alberth> Ammler: planetmaker gave it
18:30:28 <planetmaker> Alberth: try the one _you_ gave with https
18:30:44 <Ammler> pm wouldn't work either
18:30:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think "lots" is the problem, it's that they get more and more...
18:31:32 <Alberth> frosch123: ah, it is not a repo :)
18:32:05 * planetmaker should also remember that wiki page :-P
18:33:36 <andythenorth> do house sets play nice with each other?
18:33:49 <andythenorth> i.e. respect each other's use of IDs etc. similar to engine pool
18:33:54 <frosch123> andythenorth: only cargos do not play nice with each other
18:34:03 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes
18:34:15 <planetmaker> frosch123: how so / in what way?
18:34:27 <andythenorth> so for FIRS....I might (a) provide a range of 'shop' houses that accept food and goods
18:34:29 <frosch123> but i doubt anyone would like original houses between canadian, swedish or japanse
18:34:40 <andythenorth> (b) provide petrol stations as industry, similar to water tower
18:35:02 <Alberth> Ammler: it interprets my pwd as a number and fails
18:35:15 <frosch123> planetmaker: houses, industries, industry tiles, airports, vehicle ... everything has local ids with overridemanagers. just cargos have fixed cargoslots.
18:35:49 <Alberth> hmm, I have a weird punctation char in it :p
18:36:00 <planetmaker> frosch123: and that means two house sets with different cargo translation tables mess up?
18:36:09 <andythenorth> 512 total IDs for houses
18:36:20 <frosch123> planetmaker: i meant grfs with cargo definitions
18:36:29 * andythenorth wonders if US Town Set or TTRS use all the slots?
18:36:40 <Ammler> Alberth: also if you give the credentials seperately?
18:36:41 <planetmaker> andythenorth: they don't. For quite sure
18:36:50 <planetmaker> Especially as they're TTDP compatible ;-)
18:36:55 <Ammler> my url is just easier to save as default-push
18:37:14 <frosch123> there is no problem with using multiple houesets, just i doubt everyone would like a industry set like firs to enforce presence of default houses
18:37:23 <andythenorth> I'd have to draw some :)
18:37:25 <Ammler> Alberth: possible to tell me the "bad" char?
18:37:43 <Alberth> Ammler: html %xy encoding did the trick
18:38:07 <andythenorth> town stuff is tricky because FIRS basically needs to control the whole economy, which conflicts with the aims of some house sets
18:38:13 <Alberth> for the 'hg clone', next is the push :)
18:38:50 <Ammler> you could use different urls for pull and push
18:39:01 <Ammler> dunno, if that is much faster :-)
18:40:08 <planetmaker> [20:37] <Alberth> Ammler: html %xy encoding did the trick
18:40:10 <planetmaker> [20:37] <Ammler> oh, good to know :-) <-- indeed!
18:42:13 <planetmaker> even though I was no help: you're welcome :-)
18:44:27 <Alberth> oh, I don't need to push every commit seperately of course
18:44:56 <Ammler> else you might have a merge mess
18:45:50 <Ammler> well, you might know it better :-P
18:50:40 <andythenorth> so houses can check town popn, count of same building / building class, distance to nearest instance of type x
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18:51:08 <andythenorth> so it should be possible to limit FIRS-provided stores etc to sensible amounts
18:54:44 <andythenorth> a general store would have population? Maybe three :)
18:54:54 <andythenorth> also would accept and generate mail
18:55:25 <planetmaker> Ammler: there's a difference between push and commit :-)
18:55:44 <planetmaker> pushing everything separately is IMHO indeed not always necessary
18:56:11 <planetmaker> It might lead to the fact though, that merges might be required ;-)
18:56:12 <Ammler> well, it depends how you "share" the development
18:56:24 <andythenorth> I only push separately because I conflate 'vcs' with 'backup' :P
18:56:27 <Ammler> nml did it quite well, yet.
18:59:32 <Ammler> I see no reason, if you have internet connection, why you shouldn't push right after commit
19:02:09 <Alberth> in a series of patches, it is an extra step that you must wait for, without being able to do anything else
19:02:56 <Alberth> but it is somewhat safer indeed
19:05:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19883 /trunk/src/widgets/dropdown.cpp: -Fix [FS#3812]: dropdowns did affect positioning of new windows because they were not yet removed when the new windows were positioned
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19:09:14 * andythenorth isn't sure how best to deal with allowing towns to destroy stores or not
19:09:43 <andythenorth> I can make them accept 8/8 food/goods which deals with the problem of 'are there enough'
19:09:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you can only do it wrong :-P
19:10:06 <andythenorth> a bit like GUI design then :P
19:10:08 <planetmaker> whatever you do, *someone* will complain ;-)
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19:11:21 <andythenorth> well extension of food acceptance to temperate needs to work identical to goods in default game (and food in arctic/tropic)
19:11:40 <andythenorth> sometimes towns rebuild and goods acceptance stops...that's just how the game works
19:12:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth: but basically that's then a task for a town set.
19:12:43 <planetmaker> Talk to the Swedish Set guys. They'll surely be able to help. FIRS and swedish houses fit anyway quite nicely together
19:12:55 <andythenorth> I'm already using Irwe's sprites :)
19:13:09 <planetmaker> yes. I just mean: don't bother with town acceptance too much
19:13:24 <planetmaker> Just make sure it is accepted *somewhere*
19:17:14 <andythenorth> FIRS *could* change the default temperate houses to accept food and then find a way to play nice with town sets (parameter?)
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19:21:55 <Alberth> you have merged but not committed, I think
19:22:10 <Alberth> so you get the ID of both revisions.
19:22:24 <Alberth> OpenTTD findversion.sh does not understand that
19:22:27 <planetmaker> your assumption is correct
19:24:12 <planetmaker> hm, there's an easy fix for that, I think
19:25:56 <planetmaker> not before the merge is correct
19:28:06 <andythenorth> so perhaps it's the case that town sets need to be "FIRS compatible" in the same way as vehicle sets need to be
19:28:41 <andythenorth> and so they need to implement suitable cargo acceptance
19:28:56 <andythenorth> as planetmaker said
19:29:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth: requiring that is not a good idea
19:29:41 <planetmaker> But as long as there's one sink for each cargo, you're set
19:30:52 <andythenorth> so I provide sinks as industry not houses for general ease
19:31:25 <andythenorth> only one thing I can't figure out in that case: limiting the number of industries per town
19:31:34 <andythenorth> players don't want multiple general stores per town
19:31:42 <andythenorth> but players want multiple general stores per town
19:33:22 <andythenorth> I could do a limit by '1 store per 200 inhabitants' or similar
19:33:33 <andythenorth> but some town sets provide insane population counts
19:33:44 <andythenorth> I could do it by distance to nearest other store
19:33:58 <andythenorth> but distance restrictions are strongly disliked
19:34:02 <asilv> i use minimum distance checks in swehouses for general stores
19:34:23 <andythenorth> implemented as houses, not industries?
19:34:46 <andythenorth> do players need to be able to choose to build a store?
19:35:16 <andythenorth> distance restrictions are only disliked when they are encountered in 'fund industry'
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19:37:12 <andythenorth> asilv: do swedish houses accept food in all climates?
19:37:43 <asilv> yes, if FOOD cargolabel is available
19:37:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's quite helpful to be able to choose to build a <whatever cargo> sink
19:38:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: what do you think about distance restrictions?
19:38:25 <asilv> i think all newgrf houses accept food
19:38:26 <planetmaker> I don't like them
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19:39:09 <andythenorth> in what respects?
19:39:51 <planetmaker> in actually most respects: not at all, if wrt town centre. Not at all, if not circumvented in the SE. Not really, if only enforcing a distance between industries
19:40:00 <reven123> question: i just downloade openttd v1.0 and was planning to edit some of the grf files, but found that the downloadable graphics files are now archived as tar. files. how do i decode them to nfo files?
19:40:17 <planetmaker> reven123: unpack the tar files
19:40:23 <planetmaker> then you have grf files
19:40:35 <planetmaker> then you need to decode those by means of grfcodec to nfo
19:40:55 <planetmaker> tar files can be unpacked by most packers, e.g. winzip on windoze
19:41:51 <planetmaker> besides: you might look out whether there exist the actual source code for the newgrf you want to change.
19:42:01 <planetmaker> Chances are getting better that you'll be successful
19:43:00 <reven123> i managed to unzip one with alphazip. but my, probably outdated codecwizard is asking for ttdpatchw files in order to work. so im not sure how to go about decoding grf files anymore
19:44:14 <reven123> not too familiar with source code. where would i find that in any case?`
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19:44:46 <Rubidium> somewhere at ttdpatch's side I fear
19:45:18 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... what was the bash builtin for string replacement again? somthing like ${i#a#b}?
19:46:13 <reven123> yeah i looked around, but didnt find anything
19:46:17 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: maybe / ?
19:46:27 <reven123> where would i find it you think?
19:46:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: seems like each of these have a function, just need to find out which one i need
19:46:52 <reven123> i thought ttdpatch was for patching the original ttdlx
19:46:59 <Rubidium> I would think it would be findable on ttdpatch's site
19:47:18 <Rubidium> reven123: it is for patching the original
19:47:25 <Rubidium> but you're asking about ttdpatchw.grf
19:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> reven123: you can download new grfcodec from openttd.org/development
19:51:35 <Eddi|zuHause> so... apparently # cuts a string from the beginning of the variable, % cuts from the end
19:55:01 <reven123> not able to download that. something wrong with the webpages. tx anyway though for your answers
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19:57:06 <reven123> actually. maybe i can just ask if its already been done what im trying to achieve. i would like my cities more realistic in the sense that towns with only like 4000 pop sprawl out mostly in single housing units, and not just packed in one little circle with highrises and apartment buildings. anyone know if that has been tweaked with before. or if it is even tweakable.?
19:58:37 <planetmaker> sounds like do-able
19:58:50 <planetmaker> but if none of the common town sets works for you: then it's not yet done
19:59:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19884 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Feature: translatable desktop shortcut comments
20:00:10 <PeterT> ^ didn't know that was even possible
20:00:51 * SmatZ translates PeterT to Hungarian
20:04:24 * SmatZ translates PeterT to Chinese: 伯多祿 (buoduolu)
20:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause> reven123: maybe you want to try the "TaI" [UK Houses] set, i believe that implements some stuff with smaller towns
20:04:55 * PeterT translates SmatZ to SmatZish
20:05:55 <Eddi|zuHause> in german, "schmatzen" is an annoying noise you do when eating :p
20:06:05 <andythenorth> 'conflicting industry types' prop won't work with 'same type as this'
20:06:22 <andythenorth> i.e. I can't use it to prevent general stores spamming a town
20:06:48 <reven123> eddi. yes i tried that because i noted the same thing. but in the game though i didnt seem to manifest at all. mostly tall apartment blocks and a handfull of houses
20:07:45 <reven123> eddi have the same word in norwegian "smatte", probably stole it from german
20:08:11 <reven123> my father does that. very annoying
20:08:15 <planetmaker> actually that verb is a bit more general than just the eating sound ;-)
20:08:22 <planetmaker> but that's just the most common use
20:08:23 <andythenorth> I might need to know something more about bit 7
20:08:25 <Rubidium> andythenorth: disable "multiple industries of same type close to eachother"
20:09:04 <andythenorth> so that over-rides conflicting industry types as well as same-id
20:09:36 <andythenorth> I hoped it might be different
20:09:41 <PeterT> the buttons on the newgrf gui are too fat
20:10:38 <andythenorth> Rubidium: it's actually nowadays 'Multiple industries per town' and I'm not sure how that interacts with industry prop 16
20:10:48 <andythenorth> guess I'll be reopening industry.cpp again
20:12:17 <andythenorth> code suggests that "multiple industries per town" is independent of what prop 16 is doing
20:12:35 <andythenorth> I think I need to understand setting bit 7
20:12:59 <andythenorth> so how do I set bit 7? :P
20:13:59 <andythenorth> industry ID is 3Bh....
20:14:23 <reven123> bist du aus deutschland eddie? ich wolle gern nach berlin in urlaub fahren. haben sie einige sehwurtigheiten zu vorstellen?
20:14:34 <reven123> hehe, just testing my german there
20:15:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's about the only place of berlin i have seen in the last 15 years :p
20:15:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Hbf is the abbreviation of Hauptbahnhof [main station]
20:16:22 <reven123> what about tiergarten?
20:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it's right next to the Reichstag
20:16:48 <Eddi|zuHause> just across the river
20:17:01 <Rubidium> IIRC Berlin-Tiergarten isn't that nice architecturally
20:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember anything about Tiergarten
20:17:37 <fonsinchen> cobbled together in several decades
20:17:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you might want to visit the Alexanderplatz [with the "TV tower"]
20:17:56 <fonsinchen> extended, rebuilt, with new S-Bahn and so on
20:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and the "museum island" is supposed to be nice
20:18:07 <reven123> is it true that east germans are still different from west germans?
20:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> east germans are typically getting up earlier, working harder, and getting less money
20:19:17 <fonsinchen> the sad thing is: it's true
20:19:36 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you mix that up with russia :p
20:19:42 <andythenorth> So 3Bh with bit 7 set is BBh?
20:19:50 <reven123> yeah, i was just kidding
20:19:51 <planetmaker> [22:18] <Eddi|zuHause> east germans are typically getting up earlier, working harder, and getting less money <---llooool :-)
20:20:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: 3+7=10=A in my calculation...
20:20:19 <reven123> dosent sound like a nice place for me to live then
20:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause> ah... scratch that
20:20:33 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but bit 7 implies 80h
20:20:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't read properly
20:20:46 <Rubidium> andythenorth: no, you're right
20:20:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, BB is correct
20:21:02 <reven123> ok, tx for answers im off. take care
20:21:07 <andythenorth> I just guessed, based on the bit chart on wiki hex page :o
20:21:19 <andythenorth> planetmaker: interesting(?) cpp problem
20:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Leno is rubbish... i want Conan back...
20:21:51 <andythenorth> a defined id needs bit 7 setting. i.e. ID 3B needs to be BB in action 0 prop 16
20:21:55 <andythenorth> I could hard code it....
20:22:06 <andythenorth> but that is fragile
20:22:11 <planetmaker> I've no cpp solution for that
20:23:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, apparently that's the biggest limitation for pnfo
20:23:42 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe grfcodec needs an escape sequence for arithmetical and bitwise logical operations?
20:23:57 <Rubidium> does nml have some system to define a set of bits
20:23:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth: one *could* do probably some awk or whatever magic. But that's really over-doing it
20:24:07 <planetmaker> Rubidium: A | B | C
20:24:13 <andythenorth> I'll just stick another define nearby with a note
20:24:34 <planetmaker> It's rather that those magic bits get a name there, Rubidium
20:25:31 <planetmaker> :-) quite lovely, though
20:26:06 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i thought the point was that the icons get more distinguishible by something other than colour
20:26:55 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: none of them is the same
20:27:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: red and white?
20:27:35 <frosch123> they have different brightness
20:27:56 <planetmaker> frosch123: one could add - instead of MANY coins - a single money note
20:27:59 <Rubidium> guess my eyes deceive me
20:28:18 <planetmaker> colour vision easily over-prints brightness perception
20:28:21 <frosch123> planetmaker: draw a money note :)
20:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe "new" vehicles get a "birthday present" as icon?
20:29:20 <andythenorth> coins, but arranged horizontally for comparison
20:29:31 <andythenorth> maybe not enough space
20:29:32 <planetmaker> that's too boring :-)
20:29:40 <planetmaker> the space will be made by auto-resize
20:29:51 <Eddi|zuHause> red vehicles get a "broken" coin?
20:30:06 <Alberth> frosch123: really nice!
20:30:30 * Alberth ponders whether it is still original looks and feel
20:30:40 <frosch123> the newsicon is also slightly too big for default font :s
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20:30:53 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the right icon?
20:31:06 <planetmaker> Alberth: point is that currently it's neither self-explanatory nor distinguishable for colour-impaired people
20:31:07 <frosch123> exclusive transport
20:31:24 <Alberth> planetmaker: good point
20:31:56 <Eddi|zuHause> so how about the "present" and "broken coin" idea?
20:32:22 <frosch123> hmm, oh, i still failed with company colours :s
20:32:22 <Eddi|zuHause> "present" [i.e. something wrapped] indicates quite well that a vehicle is new, or not?
20:32:26 <Rubidium> what about "nothing"?
20:32:35 <planetmaker> I'm somehow aware of that - when I show graphs to my boss I need to pay attention to those details
20:33:12 <frosch123> "present" sounds weird. "broken coin" would be nice, if you can draw a broken coin :p
20:33:55 <andythenorth> how many states does this icon represent?
20:34:32 <andythenorth> profit, loss, stopped...?
20:35:28 <andythenorth> dunno...I'm guessing
20:35:40 <andythenorth> I can't tell from the icons
20:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: new, negative profit, positive but few profit, positive and lots of profit
20:35:50 <Rubidium> loss, some profit (but less than maximal minimal profit from the detailed ratings), lots of profit and not enough information to tell (young vehicle)
20:36:18 <Alberth> a hole would be good :)
20:37:46 <Eddi|zuHause> different idea: (-), (?), (+) and (++) icons?
20:38:45 <frosch123> (plus fixed company colour)
20:40:04 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: la already posted such icons on the forum
20:40:13 <frosch123> but imo they do not fit the original style at all
20:40:28 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: where?
20:40:30 <frosch123> and i need icons for openttdd/w primary :p
20:40:37 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: ogfx dev thread
20:41:23 <frosch123> la uses the same coins as the ogfx icon for the economy window
20:42:30 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... yeah, they look bad
20:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> urgh... i don't think that looks well...
20:43:48 <frosch123> bank notes are green by definition
20:45:06 <Eddi|zuHause> only american bank notes...
20:45:32 <planetmaker> my idea was to not break the colour
20:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause> ... whoever had the bright idea to make all bank notes the same colour and same size...
20:46:17 <Eddi|zuHause> no other country in the world i have ever been to, had that system of bank notes...
20:47:39 <Eddi|zuHause> probably they were just too cheap on buying ink and cutting machines...
20:47:56 <andythenorth> I've had to solve this problem before in web apps
20:48:02 <andythenorth> the smiley faces are one route
20:48:09 <planetmaker> that's also an idea
20:48:14 <andythenorth> they are a lot harder to use than red green though :|
20:48:20 <Eddi|zuHause> not entirely sure about that :p
20:48:24 <andythenorth> *unless* your r/g colour blind
20:48:32 <planetmaker> but they need to get colour as well
20:48:43 <SmatZ> do not use this shade of red/green to distinguish something, please
20:48:51 <planetmaker> andythenorth: 10% of the male population is said to be...
20:49:30 <andythenorth> I normally use 'no colour' for 'ok' (so grey, black, white) and blue for 'look at this'
20:49:46 <frosch123> are the numbers still readable enough?
20:50:13 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe those are just too many coins?
20:50:32 <planetmaker> the numbers are a bit over-printed
20:50:38 <planetmaker> that looks like a glitch.
20:50:45 <andythenorth> don't crash into the numbers :P
20:50:48 <planetmaker> But I like the concept actually a lot
20:51:00 <andythenorth> what does red / white indicate?
20:51:23 <planetmaker> red: loss. white: no data
20:51:41 <frosch123> white should be more greyish maybe
20:52:44 <andythenorth> hey....we could plot a sparkline from actual profit numbers :P
20:57:00 <Eddi|zuHause> damn... i need unzip to convert iso-8859-1 to utf-8 in filenames it extracts...
20:57:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but it doesn't have an option to do so...
20:59:07 <andythenorth> so what actual information is conveyed by 'this train is making a lot of profit'?
20:59:18 <andythenorth> and what decision does it support / inform?
20:59:44 <peter1138> heh, micromen on bbc4 later... again
20:59:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth: 20k / year
21:00:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in the company rating details, there are several categories: one of them says "all vehicles profit >$10k" or something
21:00:24 <andythenorth> oh frick....those stupid game goals still exist :P
21:00:55 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, that's the difference between "little" and "lots of" profit
21:01:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth: not stupid at all
21:01:34 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i think some of them are stupid
21:02:30 <planetmaker> they might be. It always depends on how you look at them
21:03:38 <frosch123> esp. the £10k is stupid, as it is not affected by inflation
21:03:49 <Eddi|zuHause> some of them just don't provide good achievements, some are way too easy, some of them are biased
21:03:54 <frosch123> same holds for the vehicle profit icons
21:04:12 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. per-vehicle-profit heavily discourages road vehicles
21:04:27 <Eddi|zuHause> and repaying loan is trivial
21:06:56 <SmatZ> I think there is at least one FS task for that
21:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause> damn... i can'f fix these filenames :(
21:12:38 <Eddi|zuHause> 3) Apply the optional unzip-5.50-alt-iconv-v1.1.patch patch to UnZip. It will apply with some offsets.
21:12:39 <Eddi|zuHause> It allows to specify the assumed filename encoding in the ZIP archive using the -O charset_name option and the on-disk filename encoding using the -I charset_name option. Defaults: the on-disk filename encoding is the locale encoding, the encoding inside the ZIP archive is guessed according to the builtin table based on the locale encoding. For US English users, this still means that unzip converts from CP850 to ISO-8859-1 by default.
21:12:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Caveat: this method works only with 8-bit locale encodings, not with UTF-8. Attempting to use a patched unzip in UTF-8 locales may result in a segmentation fault and is probably a security risk.
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21:22:06 * andythenorth was looking how to use icons to only draw the eye to relevant information - e.g. loss making vehicle
21:22:18 <andythenorth> but because of the 'yellow' state, that's a bit harder :P
21:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i think red catches the eye quite well
21:23:04 <andythenorth> basically if you're not r/g colour blind, colour is going to be way superior to shape
21:23:17 <andythenorth> but we can't use colour, we have to use a less-good solution
21:24:36 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's why i said "broken coin"
21:25:04 <Rubidium> possibly make it red
21:25:15 <Rubidium> then a yellow coin and green bank note
21:25:50 <Rubidium> there you've got your colour difference (in a manner that makes sense / is like it current is) and different graphics
21:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> or a red exclamation mark
21:26:42 <Rubidium> yeah, that'd probably work as well
21:26:59 <Eddi|zuHause> a white question mark, a yellow = and a green +?
21:27:32 <planetmaker> hm, along with money icon?
21:27:42 <planetmaker> that'd make sense
21:29:40 * andythenorth was drawing exclamation marks
21:30:13 <andythenorth> I think current 'green' could just be 'invisible' because it has zero useful information
21:30:41 <andythenorth> zero useful information deserves zero pixels
21:30:59 <frosch123> rather draw the grey state invisible
21:31:24 <andythenorth> both are equivalent in terms of information
21:31:25 <planetmaker> but no icon will draw the question "what's up there?"
21:32:00 <planetmaker> "not enough info" != "we're doing well"
21:32:18 <andythenorth> but what action can you take in either case?
21:32:30 <andythenorth> the only action is to choose no action
21:33:19 * andythenorth tries to remember what it was like to care about the game goals
21:59:59 <Yexo> <@Rubidium> e.g. bits[1, 2, 5] <- nml has Bitmask(1, 2, 5) (that results in the constant 0x26)
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22:17:27 <SmatZ> today's SWE-CZE hockey was crazy :)
22:36:51 <Rubidium> SmatZ: hockey as on the green stuff or as on the white stuff?
22:46:24 <SmatZ> Rubidium: the white stuff :) czech team managed to equate the score 7 second before end of the game, and they won in shootouts
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22:53:53 <Ammler> SmatZ: we are out against Germany ;-)
22:55:40 <SmatZ> Ammler: yeah, and you beaten us 3-2 :)
22:56:10 <Ammler> I saw us win the tournament :-P
22:56:33 <SmatZ> I really didn't expect we can get that far
22:56:48 <Ammler> hmm, cz is good, was always
22:57:58 <Ammler> we have maybe the best european national league but weren't never really that well on a wm
22:58:45 <SmatZ> we are still living from Nagano (1998)
22:58:59 <SmatZ> it's mentioned everytime there is a championship...
22:59:06 <SmatZ> but it's 12 years ago :-p
22:59:28 <Ammler> I can remember a 4th place
23:02:05 <SmatZ> hmm everytime there is a championship I am searching for a nice page with results of all matches so far
23:02:10 <SmatZ> but I never manage to find ont
23:02:19 <SmatZ> it's always "most recent news"
23:12:21 <Eddi|zuHause> since when are so many people talking about ice hockey?
23:12:43 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: since it's like 20+ C outside
23:13:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not true, it was 19,4°C here ;)
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23:14:58 <Rubidium> well, that's "like" 20+ C...
23:15:33 <Rubidium> and... those temperatures are measured in the shade, so there're undoubtedly places (in the sun) where it was a little bit warmer
23:17:23 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... there are like >1000 plugins for sim city 4 available
23:17:25 <SmatZ> danke schön, Eddi|zuHause (Tjeckien, what?)
23:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: dunno, the country names seem screwed up
23:17:46 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: I gave up downloading plugins for SC3000...
23:18:29 <SmatZ> Rubidium: yeah, I used to go out in just a T-shirt when it was 2°C and a sunny day
23:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause> people always look at you strangely when you do that...
23:19:44 <SmatZ> :-) few times some older woman asked me if I am ok
23:19:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i once went out in t-shirt and bath shoes to push the snow from the road
23:21:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the neighbours still talk about it, even if it was almost 10 years ago...
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23:51:44 <Eddi|zuHause> how do i tell wine to use konqueror as browser instead of firefox?
23:52:52 <SmatZ> is that possible at all?
23:53:00 <SmatZ> maybe it uses low-level API
23:53:29 <SmatZ> as it doesn't use browser, but it shows only rendered pages
23:53:45 <SmatZ> (uses only gecko render engine, or so)
continue to next day ⏵
