IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-05-21
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00:00:04 <Ammler> lennard: [01:56] <tjfontaine> test is what you get when you don't hit our kill level for being on dnsbls
00:06:05 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... 0.2% of traffic over DE-CIX is IPv6
00:07:13 <fjb> How else could it be when you usually get IPv6 only via a tunnel?
00:14:29 <lennard> huh? so we're protecting the evil peoples identities now?
00:20:27 <Ammler> good night from here too
00:36:14 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... what may be the reason for wget connections being killeld almost exactly after 12 minutes
00:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i downloaded a 150MB file, and got disconnections after 33MB (12m 3s), 67MB (12m 3s), 101MB (12m 4s) and 134MB (12m 4s)
00:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that's awfully regular
00:40:40 <Rubidium> is it 12 minutes, or 33.5-ish MiB?
00:41:21 <Rubidium> oh, right... "bed time" is the right answer
00:41:50 <Eddi|zuHause> 33.579.073, 67.011.202, 100.728.452, 134.432.741
00:41:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the numbers in bytes...
00:47:35 <Eddi|zuHause> 32,02, 63,91, 96,06, 128,2 (MiB)
00:48:15 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if that is a coincidence...
00:49:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and no, downloads don't go to the "disk full" harddrive
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01:02:49 <_Ben_> general question so I'm gunna throw it in there, where should the single sea sprite tile now be put?
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01:27:06 <Eddi|zuHause> at 3AM, you shouldn't put sea tiles anywhere ;)
01:27:34 <Eddi|zuHause> ... or expect a sensible answer...
01:30:29 <_Ben_> it will be more sensible than me at 3am
01:32:56 <_Ben_> I feel that if people can explain things to me in a half-consious state, then it may be more compatible with my laymen requirments
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02:06:59 <caribou|> how do you set a dedicated server to pause when it's empy ?
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05:10:45 <dihedral> i need to patch my znc bot - only accept private messages from people who are in a channel i am in :-P
05:10:56 <dihedral> unless they are ignored too :-P
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05:15:34 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: I have not seen tintiri.
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05:43:05 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r19870 /trunk/src/ (table/settings.h viewport.cpp): -Codechange: silence some of GCC 3.3 warnings
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07:01:30 <Yexo> Disable snowline if not hilly <- you even copied the wrong comments :p
07:01:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19871 /trunk/src/ (genworld.h genworld_gui.cpp intro_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#3826]: update the landscape buttons in the main menu / newgame window correctly (planetmaker)
07:02:57 <planetmaker> I noticed once. I fixed once. And then re-wrote the patch and forgot ;-)
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07:05:44 <planetmaker> do you want an update? :-)
07:07:57 <Yexo> this->OnInvalidateData(); for OnClick GLAND_START_DATE_TEXT / GLAND_SNOW_LEVEL_TEXT isn't useful
07:08:25 <planetmaker> the up/down buttons need updating, if you type in a value
07:08:40 <Yexo> because the value isn't changed when you click that button
07:09:09 <Yexo> The OnInvalidateData should be in OnQueryTextFinished
07:09:53 <planetmaker> hm. where it is actually, too. Yes, so it's duplicate
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07:16:32 <planetmaker> uploaded updated version. It's the smaller diff with the same name ;-)
07:17:14 <planetmaker> can be quite confusing to have one FS reply with two identically named files attached :-P
07:17:26 <Yexo> did you change anything important? I was already working on your patch
07:17:55 <planetmaker> I changed what you just said: remove the non-necessary OnInvalidateData and the comment with arcic vs. hilly fixed
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08:23:58 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19872 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Codechange [FS#3826]: move the widget updates in the newgame gui to OnInvalidateData from OnPaint
08:33:46 <planetmaker> Yexo, you now basically re-draw the whole window upon every button change, if I see that correctly, right?
08:34:40 <planetmaker> what's the advantage?
08:34:52 <Yexo> because it's easy to code and correct?
08:35:34 <Yexo> the window isn't redrawed more often then before the patch
08:35:56 <planetmaker> hm, I guess it doesn't matter much anyway
08:36:34 <planetmaker> It's a GUI window only, not called often... I didn't want to redraw much more than necessary
08:37:23 <Yexo> as long as it's for every button click it doesn't matter, it becomes another thing if the window is redrawn every tick
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08:38:10 <planetmaker> I guess :-) Might make the redraw code with tabs also a bit easier :-)
08:38:57 <Yexo> which part of the patch are you now actually commenting on?
08:40:45 <planetmaker> the last comment was referring to what I plan to do with the newgame window :-)
08:41:00 <planetmaker> adding tabs to the new game window
08:41:16 <Yexo> yes, I understood taht, but before, about redrwaing the complete window on every button change?
08:41:39 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> It's a GUI window only, not called often... I didn't want to redraw much more than necessary <-- that comment?
08:41:51 <Yexo> <planetmaker> Yexo, you now basically re-draw the whole window upon every button change, if I see that correctly, right? <- no, that one
08:41:55 <planetmaker> IIRC it wasn't redrawn, if only one map border type changed
08:42:16 <planetmaker> wasn't only the button updated?
08:42:44 <Yexo> possible, but actually changing the widget relied on OnPaint
08:43:09 <planetmaker> which then re-painted everything
08:44:23 <planetmaker> me neither. Or I assume(d) that it doesn't. That's what I based my statement "now re-draws everything" on.
08:44:54 <planetmaker> because it's possible to change one widget state, have other widget states change, but not have that change reflect on the window
08:45:09 <planetmaker> which is an indicator that not everything gets automatically redrawn with this->SetDirty
08:45:48 <Yexo> this->SetDirty() should redrawn everything, but it's not automatically called
08:46:26 <Yexo> in fact there is no call from OnClick to SetDirty (only in the GLAND_RANDOM_BUTTON handler)
08:46:33 <Yexo> and indirect via InvalidateData
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08:47:05 <Yexo> the alternative would be to call OnInvalidateData() and then SetWidgetDirty
08:50:12 <planetmaker> OnInvalidateData should - as it is used now - redraw the whole window. Or it'd get messy with the interaction with the main window. Or one would need to add many SetWidgetDirty to it.
08:50:33 <planetmaker> Probably not bad this way :-)
08:50:48 <planetmaker> I just try to understand why you do it differently than me :-)
08:50:56 <Yexo> planetmaker: InvalidateData() (without On) is a function that calls OnInvalidateData and after that SetDirty
08:51:49 <planetmaker> ah, they both exist :-)
08:52:20 <Yexo> I changed some of your OnInvalidateData to InvalidateData and removed a SetDirty on the line before
08:52:58 <planetmaker> ah, I didn't do a side-by-side comparison yet. I'm not anymore at home :-)
08:53:20 <Yexo> but I took your patch and just changed it untill it worked
08:53:49 <planetmaker> hm, where did my patch not work? In my testing everything updated when it should
08:54:15 <Yexo> the water/freeform buttons didn't update correctly when clicking on them
08:54:25 <Yexo> but that might have been due to another change I made in the meantime
08:54:56 <planetmaker> hm... I didn't check them everytime. But I didn't change any code concerning them... dunno. I can't rule it out
08:55:07 <peter1138> hm, i wonder if there are any places left in ottd where the gui is updated after sending a command (instead of the command telling the gui to update)
08:56:46 <Yexo> autoreplace_gui.cpp:434/440
08:59:20 <peter1138> autoreplace? can we blame bjarni? :D
09:01:37 <Yexo> svn blame show me as the last one to change the DoCommandP line, and frosch as the last one to change the this->SetDirty() line
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09:04:51 <Yexo> couldn't find anything else obvious, most of those harmless
09:05:01 <Yexo> possible exception are the ones in order_gui.cpp
09:05:21 <fonsinchen> I could distribute the link graph calculation over the clients connected to a game instead of doing everything on each client.
09:05:34 <fonsinchen> Then send the updates to station flow stats via commands
09:05:54 <fonsinchen> good idea or hacky?
09:06:08 <Yexo> that opens the way for cheating by modifying your client
09:06:55 <fonsinchen> I could make the number of concurrent calculations configurable and have everyone double-check against the other.
09:07:22 <fonsinchen> sounds funny but is probably awfully complicated
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09:23:59 <planetmaker> Rubidium, maybe you're interested to pull from the stable server?
09:24:24 <planetmaker> <Stablean> *** V453000 has left the game (desync error)
09:24:29 <planetmaker> right after newgame
09:30:21 <fonsinchen> There also was a single desync on the fixed cargodist server two days ago and I can.
09:30:29 <fonsinchen> 't yet explain that
09:31:11 <planetmaker> it's not the first desync on our 1.0.1 server
09:33:46 <fonsinchen> However, I don't have sufficient logs from the cargodist desync so there actually is no way to find out about it.
09:34:53 <fonsinchen> In general, on monday I was quite successful with just uncompressing and comparing savegames with hexdump/vbindiff
09:37:09 <Rubidium> planetmaker: the new_map issue has probably something to do with the game tick between setting up the new game stuff and the actual new game
09:37:44 <Rubidium> and for some reason I've not been able to reproduce the issue locally to figure out what happens exactly
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10:42:10 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... why do old games always segfault? i tried one in dosbox and two in wine... no luck :(
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12:09:18 <Lefor> Is it correct that some Patches do not work with Tortoise SVN? Instead i have to use the patch-command? :)
12:09:31 <Rubidium> yes, that is correct
12:09:50 <Rubidium> and not all patch commands work correctly either
12:10:17 <Keyboard_Warrior> i love how vp-8 has hardly been out and allready it looks like a patent pool for it and liscencing organization is imminent
12:10:45 <Keyboard_Warrior> the free software propaganda movement needed some credibility hits
12:11:52 <Noldo> what exactly are you trying to say?
12:12:16 <Rubidium> that he likes to pay for lawyers when buying software
12:12:27 <Keyboard_Warrior> Noldo, well, open source is fine and all, but theres been too much bashing of high quality, publicly developed and open standards
12:13:14 <Keyboard_Warrior> in favor of the mess that is vp8
12:13:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i should file a patent for "a method to press keys and cause a character to appear on a screen" and then sue everybod...
12:13:38 <Keyboard_Warrior> well, software patents is a non issue in most of the world
12:13:48 <Keyboard_Warrior> only applies in the us and germany nows?
12:14:02 <Keyboard_Warrior> and that german judgement is likely to get challenged soon enough
12:14:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Keyboard_Warrior: that's a lie, they constantly try to get software patents in europe through the back door...
12:14:23 <Keyboard_Warrior> Eddi|zuHause, well TRY sure, but the eu techincally forbids it
12:14:31 <Noldo> Keyboard_Warrior: so everybody should just licence h264, is that what you are trying to say?
12:14:31 <Keyboard_Warrior> and its not been implemented yet
12:15:25 <Keyboard_Warrior> Noldo, what i'm trying to say is that, mozilla get of your soapbox and just link up with dshow on windows, gstreamer on unixes and qt on macs to do video decoding that way
12:15:38 <Keyboard_Warrior> then nobody but americans has to pay decoder liscences :P
12:16:19 <Keyboard_Warrior> also, mpeg-la will probably keep h264 royalty free for webcontent even after 2015
12:16:32 <Keyboard_Warrior> remember all the open source FUD about the h264 2010 royalties that never happened
12:16:35 <Rubidium> Keyboard_Warrior: then Americans don't pay, Mozilla gets sued for not paying it for them and Firefox is defacto dead
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12:16:53 <Keyboard_Warrior> Rubidium, mozilla isnt providing a h264 decoder. in any way shape or form
12:17:08 <Keyboard_Warrior> thus can't be sued for violating h264 patents
12:17:18 <Rubidium> Keyboard_Warrior: so? They're allowing you to *use* it, right?
12:17:24 <Keyboard_Warrior> Rubidium, and most americans allready have h264 decoders on their pc's
12:17:27 <Keyboard_Warrior> without paying a dime for them
12:17:31 <Keyboard_Warrior> and mpeg-la has yet to sue anyone for it
12:17:44 <planetmaker> Keyboard_Warrior, that's not the point. You not paying doesn't mean that not another one paid
12:17:48 <Noldo> because someon is paying them enough
12:18:01 <Keyboard_Warrior> Noldo, well yes, where mpeg-la actually makes money
12:18:04 <Rubidium> Keyboard_Warrior: it's like, when you're drunk at a company party get offered a taxi ride or a night at a hotel, but still decide to go home by car and crash. The company can be sued for those costs
12:18:07 <Keyboard_Warrior> is hardware products
12:18:21 <Keyboard_Warrior> Noldo, thats the one place they actually care
12:18:25 <Keyboard_Warrior> hardware products using h264
12:18:36 <Keyboard_Warrior> bluray players, hardware encoding equipment, ipods,
12:18:59 <Noldo> cellphones are not "hardware products" anymore
12:19:08 <Keyboard_Warrior> Noldo, but they have a hardware decoder built in
12:19:19 <Keyboard_Warrior> an asic to be exact
12:19:29 <Keyboard_Warrior> almost all modern cellphones, and sevrall less modern ones
12:19:32 <Keyboard_Warrior> have h264 asics
12:19:56 <Keyboard_Warrior> ofcourse, that only adds 0.2$ to each cellphones cost
12:20:04 <Noldo> well patents are completery FUD business anyway
12:20:12 <Keyboard_Warrior> thats how much a h264 liscence costs.
12:20:49 <Keyboard_Warrior> essentially, mpeg-la has a policy of, "never touch free/open applications" because thats where they get the good will for the format from
12:20:51 <Noldo> "We might have something on you so pay up, if you do we don't have show what we have"
12:21:11 <Keyboard_Warrior> Noldo, well thats the good thing about mpeg-la
12:21:19 <Keyboard_Warrior> all the patents they controll are listed publicly
12:21:39 <Keyboard_Warrior> and they provide something google wont for vp8
12:21:59 <Noldo> so the patents covering VP8 are diffetent from the ones they already have?
12:22:16 <Keyboard_Warrior> well google refuses to help anyone sued over vp8 usage
12:22:19 <Keyboard_Warrior> they've said so publicly
12:22:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Keyboard_Warrior: that's exactly what the mafia does... it provides "protection" if you pay them...
12:22:36 <Keyboard_Warrior> mpeg-la will pay the full cost of any lawsuits related to h264 or any other standard you liscence from them
12:22:44 <Keyboard_Warrior> filed against you
12:22:51 <Keyboard_Warrior> so, if some patent troll emerges
12:22:54 <Keyboard_Warrior> it costs you no money at all
12:22:55 <Keyboard_Warrior> if you use h264
12:23:01 <Keyboard_Warrior> if you use vp8, you're a open target
12:23:14 <Rubidium> I doubt mpeg-la has enough money to outlast a few lawsuits
12:23:18 <__ln__> Keyboard_Warrior: how is all this related to OpenTTD?
12:23:27 <Keyboard_Warrior> __ln__, not really, but it is related toopen source
12:23:32 <Keyboard_Warrior> Rubidium, you forget how huge mpeg-la is
12:23:41 <Keyboard_Warrior> Rubidium, essentially, every major corperation ever, has a part in mpeg-la
12:23:48 <ccfreak2k> Rubidium, it might be important if OpenTTD: The Musical is ever to be made.
12:24:06 <ccfreak2k> __ln__, it might be important if OpenTTD: The Musical is ever to be made.
12:24:06 <Keyboard_Warrior> __ln__, well it would be the best way to implement a remote openttd feature
12:24:30 <Keyboard_Warrior> make a video output mode to openttd
12:24:50 <Keyboard_Warrior> and another viewer client that watches the video stream in real time and transmits mouse and keyboard stuffs the other way
12:25:13 <Keyboard_Warrior> this is allready doable with latencies of about 10ms (not counting network latency)
12:25:28 <Keyboard_Warrior> essentially letting you play 2k train games on your netbook
12:25:43 <Keyboard_Warrior> with huge maps
12:25:53 <Rubidium> Keyboard_Warrior: I've been at such a patent "troll" company once; they're actually quite small
12:26:15 <Keyboard_Warrior> Rubidium, well mpeg-la has essentially all the big boys and corperations :P
12:26:26 <Rubidium> that have bought a license from them
12:26:31 <Keyboard_Warrior> Rubidium, no
12:26:39 <Keyboard_Warrior> that hold patents that mpeg-la liscences out
12:26:59 <Keyboard_Warrior> essentially, mpeg-la keeps track of who owns what parts of any open video standard
12:27:29 <Keyboard_Warrior> and then lets potential customers and users deal with 1 company
12:27:47 <Rubidium> oh, so they don't even own the licenses; how can they provide "protection" then?
12:27:47 <Keyboard_Warrior> instead of the sevral hundreds with patents pertaining to a certain video format
12:28:02 <Keyboard_Warrior> Rubidium, well, without mpeg-la
12:28:07 <Keyboard_Warrior> the video formats wouldnt exist
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12:28:21 <Keyboard_Warrior> and the patent holders would be stuck with a ton of patents that none of complete video formats
12:28:24 <Keyboard_Warrior> and would make them no money
12:28:33 <Keyboard_Warrior> without mpeg-la, all the patents are 100% useless and valueless
12:28:34 <Rubidium> without software patents, video formats would be a lot BETTER and mpeg-la wouldn't need to exist
12:28:42 <Keyboard_Warrior> Rubidium, well possibly
12:28:53 <Keyboard_Warrior> but do realize, most of the GOOD inventions in video formats
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12:29:07 <Keyboard_Warrior> has come from companies competing in the mpeg processes
12:29:11 <Keyboard_Warrior> and trying to win patents
12:29:20 <Rubidium> possibly? Just look at the stupid work arounds needed because you don't want to infringe someone's patent and thus need to use some inferior technique
12:29:33 <Keyboard_Warrior> Rubidium, mpeg doesnt need to
12:29:45 <Keyboard_Warrior> mpeg-la as i said essentially controlls every video related patent around
12:30:00 <Keyboard_Warrior> so they are 100% free to use whatever tehcniques needed in their standards
12:30:18 <Keyboard_Warrior> these techniques was generally developed over sevral years using hundreds of people
12:30:19 <Rubidium> essentially doesn't mean everything is covered
12:30:21 <Keyboard_Warrior> and empiric testing
12:30:55 <Keyboard_Warrior> where as all the atempts at making open video formats from scratch
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12:31:31 <Keyboard_Warrior> has been either very innefficient, (huffyuv) very niche (ffv1) very slow (snow) and unloved (dirac)
12:31:55 <Keyboard_Warrior> video formats require imense manpowers and skills to design propperly.
12:32:03 <Rubidium> because they can't use the techniques that are patented
12:32:12 <Keyboard_Warrior> Rubidium, they do though
12:32:17 <Keyboard_Warrior> all the times, and nobody cares
12:32:31 <Keyboard_Warrior> mpeg-la doesnt go after open source software
12:32:45 <Keyboard_Warrior> so all the designed from scratch open source formats
12:32:50 <Keyboard_Warrior> with the exeception of huffyuv
12:32:54 <Keyboard_Warrior> violates plenty of patents
12:33:04 <Keyboard_Warrior> because they werent written in the us, and thus doesnt need to care
12:33:42 <Rubidium> and as a result can be banned from the US
12:34:09 <ccfreak2k> The guys of x264 probably knows this.
12:34:12 <Keyboard_Warrior> either way, the problem with an open video format is that open source developers has this tendency of "code first, think after"
12:34:27 <Keyboard_Warrior> ccfreak2k, well yeah, but 264 was written over 6 years now
12:34:40 <Keyboard_Warrior> and it didnt have to design the standard
12:34:42 <Keyboard_Warrior> just implement it
12:36:37 <Rubidium> for what it's worth, there are European software patents as well
12:36:54 <Rubidium> and it's not like they're bright and new ideas either
12:37:32 <Rubidium> "Automatic image data quality adjustment to reduce response time of a Web server" <- sounds quite a lot like a) thumbnails and b) progressive loading of (IIRC) gifs
12:38:28 <Rubidium> but then that patent has been filed in 1999
12:38:53 <Sacro> Rubidium: don't judge a patent by its title
12:41:25 <Rubidium> anyhow, software patterns generally do more harm than good
12:41:36 <Keyboard_Warrior> in a lot of cases i agree
12:42:00 <Keyboard_Warrior> video formats is just something that requires multitalented people and a lot of time and a lot of meetings and discussions and debates and proposals and thel ikes
12:42:02 <Keyboard_Warrior> to be done well
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12:42:40 <Keyboard_Warrior> i don't see how intel and samsung and the bbc and all the other major and minor players would be intrested in doing all that work if it didn't also grant them patents
12:43:50 <Sacro> You shouldn't be able to limit an idea, only an implementation
12:43:53 <Rubidium> software patents cost a lot of money in both filing (useless) paperwork and lawyers babbling about
12:43:58 <Lefor> Can i ask a question to patching process again?
12:44:22 <ccfreak2k> Rubidium, plus the poor schmuck that has to describe the damn thing in detail.
12:45:05 <Rubidium> not to mention the "engineers" of companies that for every algorithm they think of need to ask the legal department whether someone already uses that, thus needing to buy a license or whether to patent that theirselves
12:45:25 <Lefor> i get an error if i try the patch -p1 < patch.patch format: --> Couldn't reserve space for cygwin's heap, Win32 ... and so on
12:45:34 <Rubidium> even then you'll likely end up in a situation where multiple companies file the same patent around the the same time
12:46:00 <fonsinchen> software patents are the corporate answer to the anticapitalist nature of free software.
12:46:22 <yorick> Lefor: using cygwin or mingw?
12:46:24 <Rubidium> after all, most new development in a particular industry focuses on the same problems, thus gets the same solutions
12:46:36 <fonsinchen> If they weren't there they'd find some other way to restrict the danger arising from free software.
12:46:49 <yorick> Lefor: newest version?
12:47:00 <Rubidium> investing a year developing something and after that needing to pay another company money because they filed their fracking paperwork a day earlier
12:47:07 <Lefor> i think so :) downloaded yesterday
12:47:10 <Rubidium> isn't something that you'd like as company
12:47:27 <Lefor> maybe i should use an older version?
12:47:41 <yorick> Lefor: using the automised installer?
12:48:11 <yorick> hmm I have no idea then
12:48:44 <Rubidium> this then causes companies to file a patent for each tiny bit of "I've come up with something new"-stuff, which make the queues at the patent office really huge; you now have to wait like 5 years before your patent is approved, but maybe another one was filed just before you and you still shipped it... oops you're liable for 5 years of patent infringement... yay!
12:50:05 <fonsinchen> That's why they have patent pools: reviving the concept of mutually assured destruction
12:50:32 <fonsinchen> Let's just wait until someone drops the bomb and then it will be painfully obvious how software patents work
12:51:34 <Rubidium> just look at the fracking eolas patent...
12:53:26 <fonsinchen> That's not bad enough. If two major players, like IBM and MS, were starting a patent battle, now that would be a show.
12:53:36 * fonsinchen is looking forward to that
13:02:16 <Rubidium> the problem is that both companies have enough money and such to outlast such a patent battle
13:02:28 <Rubidium> and they'll probably just settle quite quickly
13:03:04 <Rubidium> due to $cost_of_lawyers > cost_of_settlement
13:03:15 <peter1138> heh, still this subject?
13:05:35 <Rubidium> oh, and I think that the length of copyright being inversely related to the amount of profit might be a good strategy as well
13:06:04 <Rubidium> i.e. protect smaller musicians/film makers more than the huge ones
13:12:58 <fonsinchen> copyright is a similar concept. Once copying of content became cheaper and cheaper, the industry started using copyright in order to be able to keep to an outdated model of distributing it.
13:13:55 <fonsinchen> It doesn't create inner conflicts between major players though. And it's not as "contagious" as patents.
13:14:17 <Rubidium> same with patents; a medicin that made a profit after 1 year doesn't need another 19 years of protection, but something that isn't as profitable might warrant a longer protection
13:14:47 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: still, 70+ years of copyright seems totally absurd
13:15:31 <fonsinchen> Copyright in itself is absurd in a world where you can copy any file basically for free.
13:15:57 <Rubidium> and really, does avatar need to be a cash cow for the next 70+ years? Just make it a public thing and everyone (but the people profiting from copyright, read: lawyers) will be happy.
13:16:16 <fonsinchen> In the long term there just isn't any business to be made with selling copies of files.
13:17:31 <fonsinchen> Well, there are enough influential people opposing that move. In order to make that happen either that crowd needs to shrink or a substantial opposition needs to form
13:17:47 <fonsinchen> I suspect the former will happen in a few years.
13:18:36 <Rubidium> basically... too bad the world is losing it's democracies
13:19:25 <Rubidium> Sacro: I hate irregularities in languages, like that one
13:19:36 <fonsinchen> Western democracy has always worked that way. Lobbying and concentration of power is just part of the game.
13:20:35 <fonsinchen> Also social movements are, but I don't see a strong movement forming about this matter.
13:20:40 <Rubidium> not quite... companies (lobbist) are getting more and more power over time
13:21:12 <fonsinchen> yes, they have a strong lobby atm.
13:21:45 <Eddi|zuHause> democracies are always a balance between concentration of power and distribution of power
13:22:13 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I think it's losing that balance quite rapidly lately
13:22:36 <Eddi|zuHause> where full concentration of power is a dictatorship and full distribution of power is anarchy
13:23:00 <Rubidium> definitely going to dictatorship
13:24:18 <Rubidium> all the freedoms that are being taken from us lately for the 'sake' of (false) security
13:24:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not seeing that... the increased concentration of power in lobbyists has resulted in rising of new smaller parties
13:24:37 <Eddi|zuHause> as a balance for the "distribution" part
13:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> of course, historically many democracies have had a swing towards dictatorship
13:25:21 <peter1138> this english/german briefing is awkward...
13:25:29 <peter1138> translators, dodgy mics...
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13:25:58 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: well, you people had the chance of speaking german, but you refused it :p
13:26:37 <peter1138> well you tried to force it before we were ready
13:26:45 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: ACTA doesn't sound very democratic, storing fingerprints of everyone (first steps to dictatorship)
13:27:18 <Rubidium> those internet filters popping up all over the world
13:27:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i understand what you're saying... but that's only one (strong) movement among several
13:27:29 <planetmaker> 1984 or brave new world. Maybe those two visions are managed to be merged
13:27:37 <nicfer1> doesn't surprise me in such hypocresy land known as USA
13:28:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: the european parliament now has its chance to secure power in rising up against this movement
13:28:18 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: there might be some under currents trying to not let that happen, but those new parties don't have real power yet and as such can't do anything about it
13:28:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: it already threw out the SWIFT deal
13:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it can do the same with ACTA
13:28:51 <Rubidium> oh, they did... that's quite good news
13:28:51 <Eddi|zuHause> if they play their cards right
13:29:27 <Rubidium> I guess that's one of the reasons Japan doesn't use SWIFT :)
13:29:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not all bad, is what i'm saying :)
13:29:51 <fonsinchen> which parties are we talking about? The pirate party? come on ...
13:30:24 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but currently the "bad" side seems to be winning; that might change in the future, but first we have to "suffer"
13:30:31 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: no, i mean the smaller parties (FDP, Green, Left) moving from 10% to 40% in the last decades
13:31:10 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: the pirate party is only at the very beginning of that proces... too early to decide if they're going to be successful
13:31:32 <fonsinchen> FDP certainly supports most of the things we are criticising here, and the greens are ambigous about most.
13:31:44 <fonsinchen> so, I don't see the point.
13:32:30 <fonsinchen> you can talk about the left party, but you can also see that as a new socialist party, replacing the SPD which isn't socialist anymore.
13:33:41 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: what i mean is independent from the particular partie's policies... i mean the large parties less and less cared about the "will of the voters", so the voters shift their opinion
13:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a process of counteracting the "concentration of power" (in lobbyists)
13:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a dynamic balance... so it shifts back and forth...
13:34:49 <fonsinchen> the voters' will is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Will doesn't form in free space. It's actually formed inside the political discourse.
13:34:51 <Eddi|zuHause> until it swings too far in one direction, which needs a full blown revolution to get out of
13:35:24 <nicfer1> is this #openttd or #politics?
13:36:53 <TrueBrain> nicfer1: stupid question :p
13:39:29 <Eddi|zuHause> what i mean is, as long as for every "concentration" movement whe have a balancing "distribution" movement, not all is lost in this world...
13:58:36 <Eddi|zuHause> "lol=cats" is a great parameter :p
13:59:19 <Eddi|zuHause> (but somehow, youtube doesn't work here anymore)
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14:13:25 <luddek> Where do I get openttd 1.0.1 binaries for mac?
14:17:07 <DJ_Nekkid> for anyone who might care; 2ccset 2.0 (beta1) is on bananas :)
14:29:26 <planetmaker> I guess that should warrant a test on the PS :-)
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15:09:42 <DorpsGek> Goulp: beerface was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 19 hours, 40 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <beerface> planetmaker: what do you mean hacked servers?
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15:28:07 <erani> has anyone faced any odd issues with music playback in ubuntu (10.04)? i have tried to install openmsx both manually and from openttd download menu and selected them from settings but they still won't play
15:29:19 <peter1138> have you set up a midi synth?
15:29:54 <planetmaker> erani: have you also enabled sound in the jukebox?
15:30:03 <planetmaker> You need to start music there, too
15:30:36 <erani> planetmaker: yes I have, but it just scrolls through all songs with enormous speed without actually playing them
15:30:46 <planetmaker> hm... might be worth to move the juke box actually to the joint user settings. Another issue actually :-)
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15:31:15 <erani> peter1138: um, I'm not sure what you mean
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15:53:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19873 /trunk/src/pathfinder/yapf/yapf_road.cpp: -Fix [FS#3817]: if the (guessed initial) destination tile of a road stop wasn't a road stop but was a T-junction or turn, the road vehicles would jump around in circles
15:56:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19874 /trunk/src/ (string.cpp string_func.h): -Fix [FS#3845]: NetBSD compilation was still broken in some cases (Krille)
16:03:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19875 /branches/1.0/src/ (11 files in 5 dirs):
16:03:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
16:03:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: NetBSD compilation was still broken in some cases [FS#3845] (r19874, r19859)
16:03:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: If the (guessed initial) destination tile of a road vehicle was not a road stop but was a T-junction or turn, the road vehicles would jump around in circles [FS#3817] (r19873)
16:03:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: When a network connection gets lost and a game with AIs was loaded the client might crash due to the AIs not being loaded while the game loop is executed [FS#3819] (r19869)
16:03:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Use non-breaking spaces for currency pre-/postfixes (r19867)
16:03:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Crash when changing/viewing locale settings in the console [FS#3830] (r19865, r19864, r19863, r19862)
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16:08:50 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: towns replacing road types could have certain problems :P
16:09:07 <andythenorth> One possibility I am pondering is restricting some vehicles to dirt roads
16:09:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe needs another flag "may not be replaced by towns"
16:09:52 <andythenorth> or towns can't replace company owned roads?
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16:10:09 <andythenorth> it's all rather theoretical at the moment :)
16:10:31 <andythenorth> bulldozers are not usually welcome on asphalt :P
16:10:35 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the point is, that towns should not be severely restricted by placing roads early
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16:11:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but isn't that a "good" restriction, that you can't use them in populated areas?
16:11:39 <andythenorth> not if it causes routing problems on established routes :P
16:11:49 <andythenorth> it might be a bad idea anyway :)
16:12:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm still not convinced ;)
16:13:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the point is that towns may grow and say "we don't allow this vehicle type on our roads anymore"
16:13:36 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: for clarification, my proposed restriction on bulldozers might be bad
16:13:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i understood that
16:14:03 <andythenorth> we could equally prevent trucks >15t from entering town etc....but it might be unwise?
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16:29:57 <Eddi|zuHause> althoug that is rare, it's not "unrealistic" per se...
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16:40:42 <Belugas> that wold just be a new rule :)
16:43:22 <erani> hmmh, tried installing timidity package but still not working. it stopped scrolling the songs in high-speed now but I can't hear the music
16:44:25 <erani> sounds are working though :S
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16:53:23 <Eddi|zuHause> erani: can you try to play the songs directly with timidity?
16:53:51 <Eddi|zuHause> erani: possibly your mixer set the volume to 0?
17:09:07 <SmatZ> google gone pacman today?
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17:11:00 <erani> Eddi|zuHause: no they don't play. and didn't spot timidity column in alsamixer :S
17:11:11 <erani> seems that this MIDI problem is an ubuntu issue
17:11:38 <erani> hmm, I'll do some research later in the evening and report how it goes :)
17:11:40 <Eddi|zuHause> have you read the known bugs section about ubuntu problems?
17:14:26 <erani> Eddi|zuHause: yes I have. but I'm not sure if is spesifically a pulseaudio issue
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17:20:48 <erani> ah. just restarting both alsa and pulseaudio did the trick
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17:41:59 <erani> thanks for helping though :)
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17:44:47 <Eddi|zuHause> so... frosch123 is "recycling" nowadays ;)
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17:50:18 <planetmaker> every electron used to play this game is purely recycled electricity?
17:51:32 * planetmaker wonders whether the android SDK is any good
18:19:36 <Alberth> it probably beats manually entering binary code
18:20:22 <Alberth> would some rail road diagrams to explain the nml grammar be any good?
18:22:34 <planetmaker> rail road diagrammes to explain NML?
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18:42:15 <frosch123> hmm, video tutorial for coding nfo
18:45:11 <planetmaker> he... :-) I wouldn't have expected a technical term like that behind those innocent words :-)
18:47:19 <planetmaker> but seems they're even understandable without knowledge of what railroad diagrammes are :-)
18:48:41 <Alberth> that's the power of those diagrams, unlike the parser LALR(1) rules :)
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18:54:13 <__ln__> Wolf01: ¿vas a participar en la fiesta de openttd r20000 en junio, en alemania?
18:56:23 <Wolf01> I don't know if I can have time on june, maybe in july or august :P
18:57:23 <__ln__> i don't think there's going to be another meeting that soon. :/
19:06:42 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 2.71828182846
19:07:03 <planetmaker> before that there might be r27182 :-P and 31415 ;-)
19:07:28 <Alberth> planetmaker: the latter already has its own day
19:08:29 <planetmaker> oh, you really meant that one. Yes
19:08:55 <frosch123> obvious 31415 needs committing on pi day
19:09:50 <planetmaker> :-) That'd need quite careful planning, eh?
19:10:28 <Alberth> why? at worst we all have almost a year vacation :p
19:12:15 <andythenorth> dunno what you're all talking about
19:44:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r19876 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.h: -Fix (r14104): it was not possible to send all trains with common waypoint order to depot
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19:51:49 <Weeknie> sorry you guys had to miss me, back agian
19:52:29 <Eddi|zuHause> well, we have 5 years of careful planning ahead, to commit r31415 on 3/14/15 :p
19:52:47 <Weeknie> That's some carefull planning indeed:P
19:53:22 <Weeknie> (as in why that special day)
19:53:43 <Eddi|zuHause> because if you don't get it, you don't need to know
19:53:51 <Weeknie> thanks yorick, didn't notice that;P
19:54:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and yorick is a big spoiler...
19:54:47 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, my guess is we reach that a lot earlier
19:55:00 <Weeknie> I must definetly agree
19:55:10 <Weeknie> erm, well, that was supposed to be a most, but must works too
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20:22:50 <frosch123> i cannot remember seeing a tramline with two platforms but only one track
20:23:30 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a turning loop
20:23:42 <frosch123> i mean the one at the top
20:24:16 <Weeknie> I need that in my sim city lol
20:24:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Weeknie: it's the "NAM 2010" mod
20:24:52 <Weeknie> Oh btw, could you perhaps help me with grfcodec
20:24:56 <Weeknie> It doesn't seem to be working
20:25:05 <Weeknie> Whatever I do, whatever command I give it
20:25:13 <Weeknie> It just keeps giving the help message
20:25:34 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well, theoretically both tram platforms should be on the same side, but that's difficult to achieve since that's a "normal" tram stop built into the turning loop
20:25:45 <Weeknie> For instance, grfcodec -d dutchtrainsw.grf
20:25:53 <Weeknie> That should work to decode it right?
20:26:15 <Eddi|zuHause> you should add -p2, but theoretically that should work
20:26:34 <Weeknie> Just gives me the help message:S
20:27:42 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do we need the actual loop, or to modify tram turning behaviour?
20:27:46 <frosch123> works for me. it create a "sprites" directory with a nfo and a pcx
20:27:53 <andythenorth> routing tram tracks in cities can be...bizarre sometimes
20:28:00 <Weeknie> frosch123, are you on windows?
20:28:12 <Weeknie> Was afraid you were gonna say that
20:28:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: both, we need the double platform at the loop to allow overtaking at the turning point
20:29:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so one tram can perform its scheduled wait time, while the other tram that was stuck behind can catch up with its timetable
20:30:28 <Weeknie> frosch123, I guess you got the linux version of grfcodec, you just pasted those 3 files to your bin and then it worked?
20:30:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: we need lots of things :P How would that one be implemented (in terms of tiles, construction etc)?
20:30:43 <andythenorth> does it need a state machine?
20:30:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, it does need a state machine (airport-style)
20:31:14 <frosch123> Weeknie: i compiled r2125 myself
20:31:33 <Weeknie> Lemme try that myself
20:31:51 <Eddi|zuHause> first part of the state machine must guide the tram along the track, and second part the state machine must stop a third tram before the switch (like a presignal)
20:32:36 <andythenorth> is the existing non-drive-through road stop a state machine?
20:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> problem is, the current state machines can't handle articulated vehicles
20:33:06 <andythenorth> would you need two-tiles width for the kind of stop you propose?
20:33:13 <andythenorth> as that will be difficult to place in towns
20:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that includes the proposed airport state machines
20:33:40 <Eddi|zuHause> typically you put turning loops at the outskirts of towns, so you should have space ;)
20:33:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i was thinking 2x2 or 2x3
20:33:57 <Weeknie> Agreed with Eddi|zuHause ther
20:34:43 <Eddi|zuHause> historically, early trams did not have turning loops, but went backwards... but someone decided that trams in openttd shouldn't do that
20:35:15 <Eddi|zuHause> turning loops were introduced because they allow longer trams
20:35:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and modern trams have multi traction support, so they can again go backwards while still being long
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20:51:14 <frosch123> hmm, i should have called it 'feature'
20:51:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19877 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt newgrf.cpp strings.cpp): -Change: Name invalid engines, cargos and industries 'invalid', if the player removed the supplying NewGRFs.
20:52:28 <frosch123> i accept bets, how many complains related to that change are raised till the end of month :)
21:04:30 <andythenorth> what are the betting prices?
21:05:15 <frosch123> hmm, maybe 250g chocolate cookies?
21:05:24 <Weeknie> erm, frosch123, had any problems compiling grfcodec yourself?
21:05:56 <frosch123> Weeknie: did you got a grfcodec executable? if yes, ignore other errors
21:06:34 <frosch123> well, then i likely got not those problems
21:06:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i needed to install a newer version of boost
21:06:40 <Weeknie> For some reason the compiler finds that "mkdir" doesn't exist in a function's scope, while it DOES exist in another file in exactly the same slope
21:07:03 <frosch123> fat c++ template libary
21:09:37 <Weeknie> Any idea what lines like "Warning: .drectve `-aligncomm:___mingw_gMTRemoveKeyDtor,2 ' unrecognized" are supposed to mean/could hint to?
21:17:03 <Weeknie> Damn I really should work with linux more often
21:17:55 <Weeknie> There it goes again about the mkdir thing...
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21:38:40 <__ln__> hmm, so talia shire is the aunt of nicolas cage?
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22:03:30 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: the one who plays adrian in 'rocky'.
22:03:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never seen rocky...
22:09:45 <__ln__> you've missed something then
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22:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... anybody know how i can teach "wget -m" to replace "?" in links with something more valid in filenames?
22:36:42 <Eddi|zuHause> currently, it creates files with "xxx.php?xyz" as filenames, but opening the links to those in the browser will try to open "xxx.php" with the parameter "xyz", which obviously fails
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23:12:36 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: -E | --html-extension
23:13:38 <glx> it will save it as "xxx.php?xyz.html" if I understand the doc
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23:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: how will that help?
23:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: the ? is the problem, as it has special meaning in URLs
23:34:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it must be replaced by a character that does not have special meaning
23:35:58 <glx> "This is useful, for instance, when you're mirroring a remote site that uses .asp pages, but you want the mirrored pages to be viewable on your stock Apache server." <-- that's what manpage says
23:37:07 <glx> --restrict-file-names=mode
23:41:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that might be the one i'm looking for
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