IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-05-12
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00:59:29 <argkde4> is there some kind of option that causes a click of an industry's "Location" button to "fly" to the location instead of jump?
01:00:01 <SmatZ> argkde4: smooth scrolling
01:00:14 <SmatZ> somewhere in GUI settings
01:03:32 <argkde4> it should scroll both axes at the same time, not one then the other. very disconcerting
01:04:29 <SmatZ> w->viewport->scrollpos_x += Clamp(delta_x / 4, -max_scroll, max_scroll);
01:04:31 <SmatZ> w->viewport->scrollpos_y += Clamp(delta_y / 4, -max_scroll, max_scroll);
01:05:27 <argkde4> i don't really know what its doing, because it does it very fast.. but it seems to move first left, then up
01:06:01 <argkde4> does it have a "very slow" test mode? :)
01:06:15 <SmatZ> I think you are wrong, but if you think you are righ, open a bugreport :)
01:06:27 <SmatZ> the smaller map, the slower move
01:10:08 <argkde4> works-for-me... when off :)
01:12:06 <argkde4> its probably just an optical illusion caused by the items on the map
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06:21:09 <argkde4> unasked for opinion: my sense of symmetry needs some space beneath the southwest/southeast buttons :)
06:21:47 <planetmaker> every opinion is welcome. And you're perfectly right
06:22:54 <argkde4> and the generate button might as well be centered
06:23:10 <planetmaker> I thought about that but decided against.
06:23:26 <planetmaker> First think I look to finish something is in the corners
06:23:29 <argkde4> because of its size, it makes the box look lopsided to me
06:24:06 <planetmaker> but it could well span the whole width. But that looks a bit stupid, too
06:24:34 <ccfreak2k> planetmaker, why are three buttons on the top pressed?
06:24:48 <planetmaker> that's mimicing tabs
06:24:53 <planetmaker> the active one isn't
06:25:19 <ccfreak2k> If map is the currently selected tab, I think they need to be inverted.
06:25:20 <argkde4> and a nitpick.. the "pressed" highlight of the AI button looks as if its wider than the box
06:26:00 <planetmaker> ccfreak2k: a tab should IMHO blend in with what it relates to. Reverting pressed / unpressed does exactly the opposite
06:26:44 <ccfreak2k> It doesn't actually look like a tab, though.
06:26:47 <ccfreak2k> It looks like a button.
06:26:49 <planetmaker> and yes, the AI button seems to extend 1px to the right. Which I think is a window system glitch
06:27:31 <planetmaker> so I guess I should get rid of the separation line between main panel and button?
06:27:33 <argkde4> yeah, the tab should have the same background color as the rest of the panel, however in that case it needs to lose the separator between the "tabs" and the rest of the box
06:27:45 <Arkenklo> the wiki is mucked up, what's the public server address?
06:28:16 <Arkenklo> oh sorry btw, wrong channel :)
06:28:53 <dihedral> Arkenklo: the point of a wiki (no matter where it is) is mostly that users (e.g. YOU) can also 'un'-muck it
06:28:59 <argkde4> planetmaker: the AI button might be one pixel too large
06:29:20 <planetmaker> argkde4: yes. But it's automatically sized...
06:29:40 <dihedral> planetmaker: northwest / southwest buttons need to be moved over some pixels to be aligned
06:30:00 <ccfreak2k> dihedral, even if he wanted to, it's pretty clear that he couldn't quite yet as he lacks the necessary information to do so.
06:31:04 <Arkenklo> dihedral: I can't un-muck php errors
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08:46:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you stayed up late :o
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09:43:25 <dihedral> though the wording in the active tab could do with some more padding
09:43:51 <planetmaker> But that's a separate issue
09:47:40 <andythenorth> planetmaker: do you know how much layout control there is resp. menus and their labels?
09:48:01 <andythenorth> the map gen screen would be better with labels aligned right
09:48:32 <planetmaker> arbitrary layout is nearly possible. But why labels right? I read ltr
09:49:20 <andythenorth> empirically, labels aligned along the left edge are the worst layout for forms / dialogs
09:49:39 <andythenorth> the best layout for commonly used forms is labels aligned right edge.
09:50:12 <andythenorth> graphic designers don't like it because they think it looks weird. It also has higher cicade times because the line start is harder to acquire. but overall it works
09:50:26 <andythenorth> look at any form in the OS X system preferences :)
09:51:02 <andythenorth> the best form layout for hardly-used forms is actually labels above the controls. This looks awful, but for some reason proves the fastest to use in testing :o
09:51:08 <planetmaker> hm... andythenorth there it varies
09:51:40 <peter1138> "Account lockout duration" doesn't seem to work for me :s
09:54:54 <andythenorth> which implies my argument is wrong, but I have the rest of the book :)
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09:55:29 <andythenorth> when we are familiar with something (like the map gen), we actually read the words on the form controls, not their labels, and then the left edge is just distracting
09:55:43 * andythenorth goes back to day job
10:01:35 <Rubidium> andythenorth: that URL times out
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10:09:46 <peter1138> argh, rsync's "max connections" module config is per server :(
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13:01:03 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... .de domain is very screwed up today...
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13:04:29 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause: opendns.org has a good cache
13:04:38 <dihedral> i currently am using that :-P
13:04:57 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: i know that link, doesn't open here
13:05:16 <dihedral> 193.99.144.85 www.heise.de
13:05:30 <dihedral> as i said - use opendns.org dns servers
13:05:49 <dihedral> they have a cache in place, and i have not been able to not reach a .de address so far with those dns servers
13:06:36 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: i tried to reach mdv.de and nasa.de earlier today, and got redirected to an opendns search page
13:06:43 <Sacro> wi use google dns, 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4
13:07:18 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause: i can reach at least www.nasa.de
13:08:53 <__ln__> Sacro: yes, and that helps google with collecting a profile about you.
13:09:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm getting more and more google-paranoid
13:09:42 <dihedral> __ln__: google already has that profile about Sacro - aint that hard for someone with a one tracked mind
13:15:19 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19793 /trunk/projects/ (4 files): -Add [FS#3657]: source.list to the Visual Studio solutions and run the project file regeneration when source.list changes (adf88)
13:15:44 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: something is weird, nslookup heise.de works
13:15:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19794 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: missing header in MSVC project files
13:16:00 <Eddi|zuHause> but the browser says it can't be found
13:16:28 <Eddi|zuHause> ipv6 is disabled
13:16:38 <Rubidium> nslookup using another dns server?
13:17:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought all are using /etc/resolv.conf?
13:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> "die DENIC hat die DE-Zone versehentlich signiert und alle nicht-DNSSEC-faehigen Resolver haben nun Probleme."
13:28:53 <Belugas> hello mister planetmaker :)
13:35:10 <yorick> you can use servers 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4, the google ones
13:35:32 <__ln__> yorick: 16:08 < __ln__> Sacro: yes, and that helps google with collecting a profile about you.
13:36:26 <yorick> I like google knowing me
13:36:37 <yorick> it's like we're friends
13:36:46 <yorick> "look we can personalize your dns lookups"
13:38:25 <Sacro> they don't keep the logs that long
13:38:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what they are telling you...
13:40:23 <yorick> "no longer than 24 to 48 hours", officially
13:40:38 <yorick> and geoip data for 2 weeks
13:40:55 <yorick> and parts of it permanently "for debugging purposes"
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13:44:56 <Eddi|zuHause> ... means they construct an "example database" for toying around?
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14:19:17 <orudge_> Continental breakfast only? Tsk, that's discriminating against the British, that is! :p
14:20:45 <peter1138> alas not, because it was full english breakfast before that
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15:38:06 * Belugas wishes svn cleanup would really do a cleanup, and remove files that has been created before forced closure of svn up :S
15:41:54 <__ln__> is the letter 'ó' used in french?
15:44:45 <planetmaker> à, é, è, ê, î IIRC what I learnt back at school
15:45:17 <planetmaker> yeah... the c is something I cannot type on my keyboard ;-)
15:45:18 <Belugas> a cookie to planetmaker and peter1138
15:45:36 <planetmaker> yes, no cedile here
15:46:10 <planetmaker> glx, yeah... but those I don't consider a separate vowel
15:46:19 <planetmaker> they just indicate that it's pronounced separately
15:46:44 <glx> ô too, but I don't remember seeing î
15:47:01 <planetmaker> fenaître? or is it over the a?
15:47:16 <glx> yes trema is for pronounciation
15:47:58 <peter1138> i guess they're mostly written without the accents in english these days
15:48:31 <Mazur> C'est fenêtre où fenaitre, pas fenaître, je pense.
15:48:53 <planetmaker> we germanize those French words: Yoghurt -> Joghurt; Café -> Kaffee :-)
15:49:01 <glx> I already said it was ê ;)
15:49:31 <planetmaker> hm... cafè. Yes. looks better
15:50:02 <planetmaker> my French is way too rusty, I think
15:50:22 <Mazur> ' to for a long vowel, ` for shortened.
15:50:34 <planetmaker> rather for a different kind of e
15:51:42 <glx> but a and à use the same sound (it's just a grammatical thing)
15:51:59 <planetmaker> hm... what is it?
15:52:19 <planetmaker> deux pomme à douze kilo ;-)
15:53:17 <glx> which is not the same as "deux pomme a douze kilo" ;)
15:53:43 <planetmaker> ah... rrrrright :-)
15:54:45 <glx> and in this case the sentense has no sense
15:55:28 <glx> anyway the right version makes no sense either ;)
15:56:11 <Mazur> Two apples have 12 kilo.
15:56:16 <planetmaker> It wasn't meant to be an entire sentence. Rather like "J'ai 2 pomme à 12 kilo"
15:56:22 <Mazur> Two apple have 12 kilo.
15:56:40 <planetmaker> two apples of 12 kilo each
15:57:02 <Mazur> ./dcc send planetmaker tin_of_'s'
15:57:20 <planetmaker> numbers were always a pain with de and aux and ...
15:57:32 <planetmaker> yes, they are. They're surely genetically manipulated
15:58:47 <planetmaker> "Please call Stella. Ask her to bring these things with her from the store: Six spoons of fresh snow peas, five thick slabs of blue cheese, and maybe a snack for her brother Bob. We also need a small plastic snake and a big toy frog for the kids. She can scoop these things into three red bags, and we will go meet her Wednesday at the train station. "
15:59:01 <planetmaker> So phonetic or grammar test texts don't have to make sense :-)
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16:00:05 <glx> I know an unwrittable french sentence
16:00:34 <glx> well it's partly writtable, but not the end ;)
16:01:32 <planetmaker> aye. So quite ambiguous, I think?
16:01:57 <glx> "un sot sur un ane transportait dans son seau le sceau du roi, l'ane trébucha, les trois [sot/seau/sceau] tomberent"
16:03:16 <glx> sot, seau and sceau have the same pronouciation
16:03:24 <planetmaker> yeah, I figured :-)
16:03:42 <planetmaker> it's far easier to pronounce a French sentence than to understand it ;-)
16:05:25 <glx> for once google is almost rigth
16:05:33 <planetmaker> what is wrong with it?
16:06:22 <glx> un sot sur un ane transportait dans son seau le sceau du roi -> a fool on a donkey carrying a bucket in the seal of King
16:06:33 <planetmaker> yes, I got that, too ;-)
16:06:36 <glx> it inverted the last thing
16:06:44 <glx> the seal is in the bucket
16:08:52 * planetmaker wonders at the host mask... whether it's coincidence or not
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17:38:55 <planetmaker> can you borrow me a bit of your time? I'm trying to solve a GUI problem... but I fail to see where I miss something
17:39:15 * Alberth looks at the time supply
17:40:09 <planetmaker> I tried to layout where I'm stuck in those two postings. And I wonder why the 2nd diff displays the button state and the first not
17:40:33 <planetmaker> I define a stacked widget
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17:40:50 <planetmaker> if I make the buttons part of that stacked one... I get the results I don't understand
17:41:13 <planetmaker> If I declare the button row out of that scope... it works. But the visual result is not quite what I like to achieve
17:42:07 <Alberth> I should try seperate_buttons.diff ?
17:42:43 <planetmaker> genmap.diff is what I don't understand
17:42:55 <planetmaker> separate_buttons.diff is what I do understand
17:43:01 <planetmaker> I expect them to behave the same
17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19795 /trunk/src/lang/ (galician.txt polish.txt):
17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: galician - 5 changes by Drenghist
17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: polish - 3 changes by silver_777
17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: russian - 3 changes by
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17:58:02 <planetmaker> Alberth: if I should break down the case more... please tell.
17:59:45 <Alberth> I am a bit surprised it works at all
18:01:03 <Alberth> At different planes you use the same enum values for the widgets.
18:01:57 <planetmaker> should it be different ones?
18:02:13 <Alberth> it was not intended to be used that way, and I thought you'd get a big fight about the pointer in the widget array
18:02:53 <Alberth> yes, each NWidget() that you make should have a unique index.
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18:03:27 <planetmaker> hm, ok, so I basically would need to define it three times, once for each plane where gets displayed?
18:03:45 <planetmaker> I'll try that :-)
18:04:16 <Alberth> that should work, I think
18:04:29 <planetmaker> thank you so much :-)
18:04:42 <Alberth> you can move the WWT_PANEL out of the NWID_SELECTION
18:05:32 <Alberth> and use a NWID_VERTICAL for the first one :)
18:05:58 <Alberth> I like the effect that you managed to create
18:06:27 <planetmaker> which of the screens? :-) The one which I like (with the seamless tabs)?
18:07:11 <Alberth> the first screenshot yes
18:07:54 * Alberth ponders whether there is a simpler way
18:08:13 <planetmaker> hm, my idea originally is to have the non-active buttons shown in a pressed state, so that they optically differ from the back plane.
18:08:26 <planetmaker> But that's then just a line per button to decide that after all
18:08:55 <planetmaker> [20:05] <Alberth> and use a NWID_VERTICAL for the first one :) <-- you referred to which widget there actually?
18:09:29 <Alberth> the first panel, as it contains more than one sub-widget
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18:10:14 <planetmaker> Yes... both vertically and horizontally. Is it better to have them explicitly vertically aligned?
18:10:43 <Alberth> WWT_PANEL has an implicit NWID_VERTICAL inside
18:11:04 <Alberth> + drawing of the edges :)
18:12:17 <Alberth> How scary solution do you want?
18:12:29 <planetmaker> so what advantage is there to move that out of NWID_SELECTION and then introducing an NWID_VERTICAL ?
18:12:42 <planetmaker> I don't mind scary solutions ;-)
18:13:00 <Alberth> A very creepy one would be to change the type of the button widget to a text or a label widget
18:13:03 <planetmaker> I mean... it's going to get really scary once adv. settings and newgrf GUI get included :-P
18:13:13 <planetmaker> Alberth: yes, Label :-)
18:14:07 <Alberth> (08:14:46 PM) planetmaker: so what advantage is there to move that out of NWID_SELECTION and then introducing an NWID_VERTICAL ? <-- ok, perhaps the advantage is not that big
18:16:03 <andythenorth> did I miss anything? :)
18:16:25 <planetmaker> Alberth: what would be the advantage, even if it's small?
18:17:12 <planetmaker> besides... yes, the active tab is - as I envision it - not drawn by a button but by a label instead
18:17:25 <planetmaker> I just figured out that there's a label widget after I posted those diffs :-)
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18:17:39 <andythenorth> planetmaker: fun with tabs?
18:17:45 <planetmaker> But the inactive ones need to be somewhat distinguishable from the one being active
18:17:52 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes. And it's going to work :-)
18:18:12 <Alberth> planetmaker: I was thinking to move the buttons out of the selection too
18:18:21 <andythenorth> looks very promising....think they need some more graphical thought :o
18:18:31 <Alberth> in that case you need a background behind the label
18:18:57 <planetmaker> Alberth: ok... and then I still need to change them depending upon what is selected
18:19:14 <planetmaker> But I mainly want it seamless with the main display
18:19:31 <planetmaker> IMHO that gives the best clue as to what is going on there :-)
18:19:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19796 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: introduce and use a {DEPOT} string command
18:19:56 <andythenorth> shall we start a company to make openttd MMO?
18:20:07 * andythenorth carries on reading suggestions forum
18:20:54 <planetmaker> or - moving it out of scope - it would need to define a new button without border :-)
18:20:58 <Weeknie> Andythenorth, you know
18:21:01 <Weeknie> I might participate in that
18:21:08 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19797 /trunk/src/lang/ (50 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup: language files due to r19796
18:21:11 <Weeknie> I'm quite experienced in web dev:P
18:21:12 <planetmaker> or... if it's on the same panel... maybe not
18:21:24 <planetmaker> Alberth: can I hide a widget completely?
18:21:25 * andythenorth modifies the newgrf gui to see if it works at 320x200
18:21:51 <andythenorth> the answer will be no
18:21:52 <planetmaker> this->SetWidgetInvisible()?
18:21:59 <andythenorth> everyone wants a fricking pony
18:22:34 <Alberth> completely hiding, either with a stacked widget, and selecting another display plane
18:22:53 <andythenorth> I did design my newgrf mockup to be smaller....but
18:23:03 <Alberth> or keeping a flag about its size, and calling ReInit() to rebuild the widget sizes
18:23:35 <planetmaker> hm... sounds like the current solution with them on the same plane is easier than re-building everything
18:23:52 <andythenorth> so let me understand....the newgrf lists need to be 290px to avoid truncation (including scrollbar). And two of them are supposed to fit into 320px. Seems like a basic failure of arithmetic :P
18:24:08 <Alberth> NWidgetCore has a disp_flags enum. Perhaps you could add a flag for a button to not draw the bottom part
18:24:40 <andythenorth> the current newgrf GUI is 300x275, and twice as much information is supposed to fit into 320x200px??
18:24:41 <planetmaker> hm... that might be interesting.
18:25:32 * Alberth is happy with the summary of the forum posts, I got grabbed by pm :)
18:25:54 <planetmaker> I'll be back in an hour. Then I'll have more widget fun :-) Thanks a lot already, Alberth :-)
18:26:01 <Rubidium> andythenorth: but less is more!
18:26:25 <Alberth> you can also have 5 selection widgets, 4 for the buttons, and one for the display below
18:29:10 <Weeknie> em, what's supposed to be bad about it?
18:29:22 <Weeknie> The lenght versus width is a little odd, but well:P
18:31:35 <andythenorth> ok, so the tabs....I might be worrying about nothing, but if we make the 'selected' state look like the 'up' state of every other button in the game, we might baffle players a little?
18:31:51 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19798 /trunk/src/ (town.h waypoint_base.h waypoint_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: generalise the waypoint naming method
18:32:54 <Rubidium> andythenorth: but it's used elsewhere as well
18:33:39 <Rubidium> though, it looks different in there
18:33:50 <Rubidium> but in theory those are just tabs as well
18:34:44 * andythenorth sighs. three different nightlies assert when I go to build a vehicle.
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18:38:02 * andythenorth looks for an easy 'tab' solution
18:38:27 <andythenorth> any massive limitations I should know about in the code to draw windows?
18:43:52 <andythenorth> next time I'll ask a better question
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18:51:53 <Alberth> One of the better solutions is probably to make a new widget type
18:54:31 <Alberth> a tab-button widget is simpler than a tab-bar widget, I think. However is a number of tab-button widgets enough to make a tab-bar?
18:55:59 <Alberth> you could also make both
19:00:26 <planetmaker> Alberth: properly drawn tab button widgets would suffice, I think
19:02:41 <planetmaker> [20:58] <andythenorth> [20:31:35] ok, so the tabs....I might be worrying about nothing, but if we make the 'selected' state look like the 'up' state of every other button in the game, we might baffle players a little? <-- I don't think it applies here really
19:03:06 <planetmaker> as the active tab description integrates seamless into what it displays
19:05:55 <andythenorth> planetmaker but the other buttons look like the 'pushed' state of other buttons....
19:05:58 <andythenorth> I think it's resolvable
19:06:04 <andythenorth> it just needs a little thought :)
19:06:16 <andythenorth> I was working on a mockup....food interrupted
19:07:34 <andythenorth> compare station building dialog buttons for example....it's clear which is selected and which is active
19:11:01 <andythenorth> but the other tabs look like the 'down' state for nearly every other button in the game, which says to me 'not a button I can click'
19:11:10 * andythenorth is trying not to be helpful no argumentative
19:13:10 <planetmaker> which in all honesty is the easiest solution ;-)
19:13:31 <andythenorth> yes, that one is not 100% pretty, but it's more usable
19:14:21 <andythenorth> I need to fool around in photoshop to find an 'ideal' solution that works with current style, but might turn out to uncodable :)
19:18:05 <andythenorth> planetmaker: this is my first step. It has various problems, but it gets the right 'feel' for tab buttons
19:18:45 <andythenorth> let me try some more...
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19:19:14 <Darkdjinn> i got a question to ask about vecles after when you make a new game at 2015 and above
19:19:25 <planetmaker> andythenorth: good idea to invert colours...
19:19:46 <Darkdjinn> when you make a new train station and want to build trans there is no new wecles more then diesel train
19:19:46 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's mostly about making the highlight / shadows appear correctly in the layer depths
19:20:01 <planetmaker> andythenorth: that's feasable. I'll play with that
19:20:10 <andythenorth> I'll try a few more variations
19:20:19 <Darkdjinn> i would like to know why there is just 1 train to build and not the older ones or more new ones at that current year
19:20:49 <planetmaker> Darkdjinn: you might want to electify your tracks
19:21:00 <planetmaker> unless you play in a climate where there are no electric engines
19:21:13 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19799 /trunk/src/ (11 files in 3 dirs): -Change: give depots an unique name in the same manner buoys and waypoints are named
19:21:22 <Darkdjinn> i ment i click in the little house you connect to the train track when its finished built
19:21:39 <Darkdjinn> when you purchase a tradn and the vaggons before the start
19:21:45 <Darkdjinn> wy is there just 1 train
19:22:31 <Spoons> You can turn on the older, inferior trains.
19:22:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Darkdjinn: click and hold on the rail icon in the main toolbar, there you can select "electrified rail"
19:25:53 <Darkdjinn> i have another question about the AI's
19:27:44 <planetmaker> that's the female colour scheme, I have to admit.
19:27:59 <andythenorth> definitely more usable
19:28:13 <planetmaker> yes, I agree, it's better
19:28:49 <andythenorth> that's a bit more complex (don't miss the changes in the shading at the lhs / rhs window edges
19:29:25 <andythenorth> I think the other route might be better use of time & effort
19:29:30 <planetmaker> that's not really more complex. Actually it's just what I had in the very beginning - with a tiny bit space left and right of the buttons.
19:29:33 <planetmaker> I can live with that
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19:29:52 <andythenorth> but the shading and things might be fiddly to achieve?
19:30:06 <planetmaker> you mean light borders?
19:30:20 <andythenorth> yes, to make it appear recessed, not forward
19:31:02 <andythenorth> let me try something simpler to achieve
19:31:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth: changing the border colour is again... something substantially more intrusive
19:32:11 <planetmaker> hm... any hint where the colours are defined?
19:32:25 <andythenorth> I think a good effect can be done hopefully without *too much* work :)
19:44:17 <andythenorth> there are some lighting details at window edges that are wrong, and should be ignored for ease of coding. Probably no-one will notice
19:44:26 <andythenorth> FWIW, I don't like the yellow one
19:45:01 <Weeknie> I know you're not talking to me
19:45:16 <Weeknie> But I took a quick look and I agree with you, I don't like the yellow ones either
19:46:22 <planetmaker> yes, the brownish theme is better
19:46:30 <andythenorth> planetmaker: this has one subtle change, I think it's worth it :)
19:47:02 <andythenorth> the whole thing could be brown, yellow, purple, green, blue. I don't mind right now. It's the relative shades / depth that matters :)
19:49:34 <peter1138> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOlong
19:49:54 <andythenorth> we could do it in flash :P
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19:51:03 <peter1138> i wonder why the left and right lists are drawn differently
19:51:10 <peter1138> (other than "that's how they are at the moment")
19:51:26 <andythenorth> "that's how they are at the moment"
19:51:40 <andythenorth> mockup is built from screenshots of existing gui
19:51:52 <andythenorth> I guess that is easier to fool with in code than photoshop
19:52:06 <peter1138> wasn't the 'original new newgrf gui' rejected because it was too wide?
19:52:43 * andythenorth ponders proving the two list thing can go narrow with some minor usability fail
19:53:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I understand that mainly the shade is important, not the absolute colours, yes :-)
19:54:31 <andythenorth> am I making your life much harder? :P
20:01:35 * planetmaker needs to figure out how to pass frame flags to a widget
20:03:00 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: belugas * r19800 /trunk/src/table/town_land.h: -Codechange: Replace magic number by corresponding constant
20:03:56 <planetmaker> :-) A Belugas commit. And... sounds like a nice one :-)
20:04:15 <Belugas> nope... just... some text change...
20:04:20 <planetmaker> did you wait for that number? ;-)
20:04:53 <Belugas> i wold have waited for 19640 instead ;)
20:05:10 <andythenorth> I don't think it's worth finishing the narrow version as I don't think it's necessary for proof of concept
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20:05:33 <andythenorth> the lists fit, the rest can be jammed in if....if text areas have wrapping
20:06:32 <andythenorth> and they appear to
20:07:28 <andythenorth> dunno about the tabs though
20:07:55 <planetmaker> depends upon how they get implemented
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20:09:16 <andythenorth> personally I'm not too worried about 350px
20:09:25 <yorick> andythenorth: that's plain ugly :)
20:09:37 <andythenorth> Rubidium told me 640 wide, and I believe his opinion counts for something around here :)
20:09:57 <yorick> andythenorth: maybe if you remove the padding on the left
20:10:33 <andythenorth> probably.....I'm hitting the limit of what's worth doing in photoshop. Easier in code
20:11:53 <yorick> it might be nice if it looked less "split"
20:12:34 <yorick> there's two "islands" called Inactive and Active now
20:15:37 <Rubidium> Belugas: 19640 has already passed
20:18:44 <Belugas> yeah ... sadly... 45 years ago
20:19:34 <argkde4> has anyone tried that dialog with a pair of lists with buttons that move stuff from the "out" list to the "in" list?
20:20:21 <argkde4> well i guess on this particular panel stuff == newgrfs
20:21:03 <Alberth> oh, I thought andy had made a new cargo :p
20:23:59 <Alberth> oh, we already have such a cargo, it is called OpenTTD :D
20:24:46 <Ammler> sorry dear Canadians :-)
20:26:28 <argkde4> far too narrow, but yeah
20:27:19 <argkde4> and whoever named their grf "<-------Landscape..." needs to be taken out back and shot
20:27:33 <argkde4> oh, are those headings?
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20:27:54 <Alberth> I think they are supposed to be headings, biut I never understood them
20:28:40 <Alberth> I also never really tried, as I hardly use the window at all
20:30:41 <argkde4> edit the config file instead?
20:31:08 <Alberth> you think the average window user is capable of even finding that file?
20:32:30 <Alberth> also, I am told there are several 100s of grfs typically, not something you want to search through manually
20:33:23 <planetmaker> they serve no other purpose than adding them as headings to the active newgrf list
20:33:56 * planetmaker compiles *gui.cpp
20:34:01 <Alberth> another mystery solved
20:35:50 <argkde4> Alberth: i tried to assist a windows user to file the file while reading the list of the expected locations and failed :)
20:35:59 <planetmaker> may I say again that the new GUI system makes much more sense than the old one?
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20:37:28 <planetmaker> it's a nice feeling when things actually start to make sense :-)
20:37:55 <argkde4> is it that they're making sense, or that your mind has become twisted enough to understand it? :)
20:38:15 <andythenorth> yorick: islands?
20:38:22 <Alberth> argkde4: can you tell the difference?
20:38:46 <argkde4> Alberth: the conventional wisdom is that the insane person is the last to realize it
20:39:25 <Zuu> planetmaker: I'm sorry I was only able to remark on your coding style. To give help on the actual problem I would need to play around with the widget array.
20:39:27 <Alberth> good thing I don't consider myself very sane
20:39:31 * andythenorth looks for islands
20:39:54 <planetmaker> Zuu: it's mostly solved meanwhile
20:40:01 <planetmaker> I consulted the expert here :-)
20:40:29 <planetmaker> being entirely sane is boring
20:40:56 <andythenorth> can anyone see islands?
20:41:38 <Zuu> Just look for from where the smoke is comming. ;-)
20:41:47 <yorick> andythenorth: islands in the middle
20:42:24 * andythenorth looks harder for islands
20:42:35 <planetmaker> it costs 3k of patch size ;-)
20:43:12 <andythenorth> planetmaker: sorry, I'm looking for islands, can't stop to look at your screenie :P
20:43:40 <planetmaker> they're on my screenies! ;-)
20:43:49 <Zuu> a problem with andys last image at tt-forums is that that the height curves do not work out correctly.
20:44:03 <yorick> planetmaker: those are different islands
20:44:10 <andythenorth> CAN ANYONE PLEASE TELL ME WHERE THE ISLANDS ARE!!!!
20:44:10 <yorick> I was talking about "islands" not islands
20:44:14 <Zuu> And that makes me kind of irritated. :-p
20:44:21 <yorick> andythenorth: in the middle
20:44:54 <yorick> andythenorth: no of the window
20:45:10 * andythenorth looks for islands
20:45:28 <yorick> andythenorth: they are floating
20:46:23 <yorick> andythenorth: let me get you some ascii art
20:46:29 <andythenorth> yorick: can you indicate these islands on a screenshot?
20:47:23 <Alberth> planetmaker: I'd expect the unselected buttons to be slightly darker than the selected ones, not lighter
20:47:40 <Alberth> but difference in colour is good
20:47:51 <yorick> andythenorth: then I'll have to edit them :D
20:48:01 <planetmaker> Alberth: you mean not as light as selected buttons elsewhere?
20:48:03 <Rubidium> lol... classic communication failure. If someone doesn't understand something, don't explain it with the same words (in a different order?)
20:49:45 * andythenorth found some islands
20:50:12 <Alberth> planetmaker: the seamless one should have the same colour as the panel, but the unselected buttons draw too much attention imho.
20:50:19 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I can help, I am one handed again though
20:50:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19801 /trunk/ (11 files in 4 dirs): -Add [FS#3691]: custom naming of depots. Based on work by sbr
20:50:25 <yorick> andythenorth: yeah those islands
20:50:29 <planetmaker> Alberth: ok, I'll see. That can be changed :-)
20:50:49 <planetmaker> good point, though
20:51:24 <andythenorth> so the 'islands' are the two lists?
20:51:59 <andythenorth> planetmaker, Alberth cancel the 2-list gui
20:51:59 <argkde4> andythenorth: thats actually really cool, ship that :)
20:52:00 <planetmaker> good night Alberth
20:53:16 <yorick> andythenorth: that's cool yes
20:53:19 * Alberth must remember that remark until tomorrow
20:53:41 <argkde4> andythenorth: extra points if the water is animated while configuring the game :)
20:53:43 <yorick> andythenorth: make that the whole screen
20:54:22 <andythenorth> argkde4: extra points if the water is *not* animated - that is harder
20:55:02 <yorick> andythenorth: bonus points if the user can control the water animation with his mind
20:55:14 <yorick> double bonus if only the water
20:55:27 <yorick> and not the rest of the GUI
20:55:38 <andythenorth> planetmaker: sorry I seem to have gone temporarily insane
20:55:48 <yorick> andythenorth: I liked you
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20:57:35 <andythenorth> planetmaker: make the entire window lighter.....inc. title bar
20:57:46 <bryjen> at least its not the multiplayer screen or some luser could connect in and lower the lists to sea level
20:58:16 <andythenorth> planetmaker: but keeping the tab pane same colour as now
20:59:29 <planetmaker> andythenorth: that's not quite well possible
20:59:39 <planetmaker> Lod: no. you didn't ask a question
20:59:51 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: belugas * r19802 /trunk/src/table/ (sprites.h town_land.h): -Codechange: Replace some more magic numbers by corresponding constants
20:59:56 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it uses CC. And lighter leaves no pressed state
20:59:59 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's very easy in photoshop :P
21:00:40 <andythenorth> CC has 8 shades ?
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21:02:27 <planetmaker> at least 7 is possible ;-)
21:02:37 <planetmaker> and 0 will be an acceptable value, I assume
21:02:46 <planetmaker> for index of the colour array
21:04:42 <andythenorth> my mock up only uses 5 shades of brown...it should use more but I cheated on the highlights/shadows
21:05:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the point is, if I want to use a lighter shade for everything, I'd have to define a new widget (with a different colour mode) for everything
21:05:30 <planetmaker> that's feasable - but doesn't sound like a sane idea
21:05:39 <argkde4> and this is better than the old way? :)
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21:06:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I had a feeling this might be difficult...
21:06:28 <planetmaker> the current way has a certain colour palette handed and defines colours from that depending upon the state of the widget
21:06:57 <planetmaker> quite easy. But if you want to re-work the whole colour scheme. Alas. That's that you have to re-define all colours
21:07:01 <andythenorth> maybe I should start reading the code....but not tonight :)
21:07:11 <andythenorth> and my C++ is...dangerous
21:07:20 <planetmaker> Not much needed ;-)
21:07:27 <andythenorth> is it likely to be more work than say...spending an entire day drawing one ship?
21:07:44 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: belugas * r19803 /trunk/src/table/sprites.h: -Fix(r19802): Compile before commit, or at least double check...
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21:09:45 <andythenorth> planetmaker: is this one a mockup or from real code?
21:10:28 <andythenorth> that's very close to what's needed
21:10:48 <andythenorth> instead of pink....try the dark brown used for the shadows in that version?
21:10:57 <planetmaker> mockups are boring, if I can play with the real thing ;-)
21:11:25 <planetmaker> hm... even darker?
21:11:25 <andythenorth> that's how I feel about CSS usually
21:12:11 <andythenorth> it will be too dark for my taste, but it will provide the correct layering
21:14:13 <argkde4> will somebody *please* move the corner controls 4 pixels to the right :)
21:14:43 <Zuu> which are the corner controls?
21:15:11 <argkde4> the four buttons.. northeast northwest southeast southwest
21:15:42 <andythenorth> but layout tweaks can come later...
21:16:05 <argkde4> oh come now, you're using photoshop for this aren't you? :)
21:16:15 <andythenorth> planetmaker: if you can achieve that shading it's a good win
21:16:59 <planetmaker> it could be feasable. I just need to define a new panel
21:17:13 <andythenorth> If you can use string code 94 (or equiv) for the text on selected tab, even better
21:17:22 <andythenorth> dunno about in game
21:17:23 <planetmaker> currently I play with using other colours
21:18:54 <Zuu> andythenorth: If you just want to play around with the widget tree, I don't think you really need much C++ knowledge.
21:19:35 <Zuu> It is quite simple as long as you get to know the nested widgets system.
21:20:11 <Zuu> There is probably some hints at the wiki. I know I've added stuff at the wiki when I've done new things not in the wiki.
21:21:48 <andythenorth> widget system doesn't look too bad
21:22:09 <Ammler> andythenorth: last screen looks like the button is on a button
21:22:35 <andythenorth> Ammler: you mean the 'generate' button
21:22:49 <andythenorth> you're quite right
21:24:17 <andythenorth> Ammler: can you identify what makes the difference?
21:24:19 <Ammler> because of the boarder maybe
21:24:59 <Ammler> there is a tiny line on left and right boarder
21:25:12 <Ammler> which isn't in the screen, but on the mockup
21:26:09 <planetmaker> andythenorth: what if we make the non-active tab buttons just darker?
21:27:06 <andythenorth> that's how the game does it by default for this sort of situation no?
21:27:11 <Ammler> well, I think, a boarder is needed anyway
21:27:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth: no. Same colour, if the same colour scheme is chosen
21:28:51 <andythenorth> just a different colour?
21:29:02 <andythenorth> all I did was fill the pink to another shade
21:29:15 <Ammler> what if you swap the colors of the tabs
21:29:46 <Ammler> the active part is like the title bar
21:29:49 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I mean to reverse colours of the panel and the tab buttons
21:29:57 <Ammler> the inactive have something else
21:31:24 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you could try it....I think you'll have trouble with highlights/shadows
21:31:38 <andythenorth> but perhaps I misunderstand :0
21:32:07 <planetmaker> Like my last screen I linked. But not light buttons but darker ones
21:32:17 <Ammler> "Gameplay Settings" looks like it will issue translation glitches...
21:32:20 <planetmaker> that's moderately easy
21:32:39 <planetmaker> exactly, andythenorth
21:32:56 <andythenorth> it's not my preference
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21:33:32 <Ammler> how will you add a 5th tab?
21:34:08 <ccfreak2k> A little weird, but it looks more like a tab now.
21:34:10 <planetmaker> andythenorth: then make the bottom panel the same colour as the tab
21:34:16 <Ammler> andythenorth: can you add a boarder?
21:34:42 <andythenorth> planetmaker: one minute then
21:34:43 <planetmaker> Ammler: I just add a 5th tab
21:35:55 <Ammler> also you should try how it looks if the string of the 2nd tab is maybe double the length
21:36:43 <planetmaker> Ammler: it will just re-size everything
21:36:44 <Ammler> andythenorth: that is wrong, now it looks like generate belongs to map :-)
21:37:25 <planetmaker> Ammler: Nothing wrong with that
21:37:53 <Ammler> not possible to add a boarder line?
21:38:21 <andythenorth> I prefer this one...is it easy to make the window resizable?
21:38:39 <andythenorth> resize handle will destroy the sense that bottom panel is a button
21:38:44 <planetmaker> the window _is_ resizable
21:38:57 <andythenorth> it's not showing a handle?
21:39:03 <planetmaker> but not by the user :-P
21:39:05 <Ammler> andythenorth: also a boarder would do that
21:39:18 <planetmaker> but should be easy to add
21:39:24 <andythenorth> yes, but I can't recall any existing widgets/panels with borders :)
21:39:33 <andythenorth> so the drawing routine probably doesn't exist
21:39:40 <planetmaker> Ammler: I don't see a mockup with border
21:39:42 <andythenorth> drag handles are everywhere :P
21:40:08 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19804 /trunk/src/table/sprites.h: -Fix (r19802): Compile before commit, or at least triple check :)
21:41:10 <Ammler> maybe it just feels like
21:41:32 <Ammler> also the resize and the 2nd button might influence the feeling
21:41:50 <planetmaker> I guess we can add a bright border around everything
21:42:07 <andythenorth> I am fooling with a border. I think it's a bit of work to get right
21:42:20 <andythenorth> if you're going for incremental improvements....I wouldn't bother yet
21:42:50 <andythenorth> plus, don't optimise the container too much until we have all the content for it (i.e. other 3 tab contents)
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21:51:58 <andythenorth> planetmaker Ammler this is a hacky border. It could be made to work visually, but I don't think it's necessary
21:52:24 <andythenorth> photoshop takes identical time to code :P
21:52:26 <planetmaker> different width are possible
21:53:00 <planetmaker> it needs then also an empty line above the tabs IMHO
21:53:05 <andythenorth> It would need to invert shadows / highlights to recess
21:53:09 <planetmaker> and it then amounts to wasting quite some pixels
21:53:12 <andythenorth> and yes, it would need a line
21:53:16 <andythenorth> and it wastes pixels
21:53:21 <andythenorth> or adds nice white space
21:53:31 <andythenorth> depending on your taste :P
21:53:56 <Ammler> planetmaker: wrong shadows
21:54:12 <Ammler> looks like buttons, instead intended
21:54:28 <planetmaker> it's intended as buttons...
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21:54:47 <andythenorth> he means on the tab panel
21:55:01 <andythenorth> he is indeed a Nite_Owl
21:55:38 <andythenorth> planetmaker this looks like good progress....
21:55:43 * planetmaker strongly ponders sleep
21:56:08 <Nite_Owl> Hello andythenorth - actually late afternoon here but I get the point
21:56:11 <Ammler> planetmaker: invert the shadows and it is almost perfect
21:56:25 * andythenorth votes for a version with sea in it
21:57:07 <Ammler> or andys, just smaller boarders
21:57:22 <planetmaker> andythenorth: ineed it didn't look too bad ;-)
21:58:10 * andythenorth does one more mockup before bed
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21:59:18 <Ammler> planetmaker: the violet part should look sinked in
22:00:15 <andythenorth> I don't think the borders are essential, but they do help tie it all together
22:00:35 <Ammler> andythenorth: and if they are very small (1-2 pixels)
22:01:03 <andythenorth> they should be the width of other widgets...
22:01:22 <Ammler> I guess, there are none
22:01:31 <ccfreak2k> andythenorth, definitely looks more like tabs now.
22:01:36 <Ammler> else you wouldn't need to try that much :-P
22:01:39 <andythenorth> industry window for example has 3 px border
22:01:45 <ccfreak2k> It's more obvious that the buttons are associated to window changes rather than some other action.
22:02:08 <andythenorth> planetmaker: that + top border, and you have most of what I've drawn :)
22:02:23 <planetmaker> yep. But that's for tomorrow :-)
22:02:29 <planetmaker> Have a good night folks
22:02:37 <planetmaker> but I agree. It was productive
22:03:18 <Ammler> he good night guys :-)
22:05:13 <Nite_Owl> Good Night to whomever is leaving (gets confusing some times)
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22:44:28 <Nite_Owl> so will the new depot names show up in depot related orders
22:50:06 <Nite_Owl> need to feed - later all
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