IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-05-11
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00:03:56 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... something is not right... i have files magically disappearing...
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07:05:10 <Zuu> hmm, I just realize we will get some fun with the one edit box per window limit trying to implement the new new-game-dialog. Though, if only one is visible at the time each given time, a workaround could probably be made.
07:06:29 <Zuu> Eg. remember and restore the QueryWindow::text (or what the var name was) variable when switching tabs.
07:07:54 <Terkhen> I think there's a way to use the same edit box in all tabs, but the code will be very hacky
07:10:46 <Zuu> From what I recall I don't think they need to have the same widget id as IIRC you pass the widget number around at least to the input routines. But maybe not to the paint function. Though you would need to use the same data variable that holds the text for all edit boxes. Eg. you would have to have another storage for the text when a tab is invisible.
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07:12:47 <Terkhen> many windows use a global variable to store settings when the window is closed (like the pressed cargo buttons at the cargo payment graph)
07:14:23 <Zuu> indeed, I've even implemented that at two times. :-)
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07:15:08 <Zuu> or well, static var in those cases but it is quite the same in this case.
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08:14:39 <planetmaker> I quite like that
08:14:49 <planetmaker> except still the button thing ;-)
08:15:03 <planetmaker> but that's something which needs work anyway, especially on the backend part
08:15:27 <andythenorth> I'm ignoring those for now :)
08:16:15 <andythenorth> parameters *and* toggle palette would go into a popup 'configure' window.....it's more work, but worth it and opens the way for gui configuration of newgrfs
08:19:22 <planetmaker> and for displaying the readme ;-)
08:21:30 <Ammler> or the bananas description
08:21:51 <planetmaker> readme gets shipped. Bananas description is local to bananas
08:22:06 <planetmaker> but the description which is anyway supplied with the newgrf in the action8
08:22:12 <Ammler> readme gets shipped, if author adds it :-)
08:22:35 <planetmaker> yes. Whoever doesn't ship one doesn't deserve to have displayed details
08:22:54 <planetmaker> combining the bananas description with this is more hassle than it's worth
08:22:59 <planetmaker> a readme is easily added.
08:23:09 <Ammler> yeah, might not be needed anymore anyway
08:23:37 <Ammler> the bananas description does mainy tell you why you should download the grf
08:23:50 <Noldo> Why aren't we calling newGRF presets landscapes?
08:24:25 <planetmaker> Noldo, as it might just be vehicles? How is that landscape?
08:25:02 <Noldo> there are different vehicles in different landscapes now
08:25:25 <planetmaker> yes. But they are not landscape
08:25:46 <planetmaker> if I read landscape I do associate terrain, trees, maybe roads and houses with it. But not vehicles or base cost modifications
08:27:08 <Noldo> in openttd context landscape defines also which vehicles are available
08:27:37 <planetmaker> not quite, if you use newgrfs
08:27:54 <planetmaker> most newgrfs just work the same on temp/arctic/tropic
08:28:02 <planetmaker> and base costs definitely are not landscape
08:29:01 <planetmaker> that one influences the other also doesn't mean they are the same. Landscape is just the wrong word
08:29:24 <Noldo> anyway, I think it's a bit odd that there is landscape selection on the main menu when the selection made there doesn't make as much difference as the newgrfs user activates
08:29:59 <planetmaker> that's why it's newgrfs ;-) which probably has for some reason similarity to the words "new graphics"
08:30:13 <planetmaker> (even though they are way more)
08:30:51 <andythenorth> they're presets....so call them presets :)
08:31:44 <Noldo> I would include the base landscape in to the preset
08:32:34 <planetmaker> Noldo, base sets cannot influence the game while newgrfs can
08:33:14 <andythenorth> are presets just for newgrf, or should they also include AIs, other settings?
08:33:28 * andythenorth thinks probably not
08:35:10 <planetmaker> andythenorth, there should be presets for each separately
08:35:20 <planetmaker> settings / newgrf / ai
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08:35:33 <andythenorth> makes sense to me
08:36:13 <andythenorth> in my mockup....does the 'refresh' button make sense for 'rescan files'?
08:38:09 <Noldo> planetmaker: not base sets, the base lanscape as in temperate or arctic or toyland
08:39:43 <andythenorth> is separate to my choice of newgrfs
08:40:43 <planetmaker> Noldo, ah. That even makes sense, yes
08:43:11 <Noldo> and there of cource the matter of difficulty settings vs newgrf vs advanced settings, but maybe we won't go there today :)
08:49:46 <planetmaker> Noldo, difficulty will go. Actually I even removed it locally - at least from the surface ;-)
08:50:10 <planetmaker> Exactly for the reason you mention. There's no way to tell how newgrf affect it. So they're pointless anyway
08:53:59 <planetmaker> actually you just convinced me that difficulty really has no place here. Only different presets for settings
08:54:12 <planetmaker> That makes some things easier again :-)
09:00:27 <peter1138> do people use presets or always just modify the newgrf list?
09:03:33 <Yexo> I use it when testing, I have some presets with grfs I often use together
09:05:40 <planetmaker> unfortunately they don't live through version updates. But then that can be done manually by loading the old, updating newgrfs and over-writing the old
09:05:54 <Ammler> it is nice not just for available lists, also exporting settings from another save.
09:06:44 <Ammler> yes, version in the file path is quite bad in that respect :-(
09:06:45 <planetmaker> I don't use them everytime. But those times I use them I'm quite happy they're there.
09:07:19 <planetmaker> E.g. theme sets like Japanese or North American are then easily re-used
09:07:37 <planetmaker> Or I start with my "most stations" preset and add the other things specific to the game
09:08:01 <planetmaker> most. Not the obsolete ones ;-)
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09:09:17 <planetmaker> and I have to say the filter functionality in the newgrf dialogue is worth gold
09:09:49 <Ammler> some grf combinations needs dependent parameters, there it is very nice to have presets (e.g. dbset/ttrs)
09:10:59 <planetmaker> one thing I can imagine is a small checkbox: 'add preset' which then adds the selected preset to the active grf list
09:11:04 <planetmaker> instead of replacing it.
09:11:30 <planetmaker> then one could add sub-sets of newgrf lists.
09:11:48 <andythenorth> I wonder about a drop-down menu to manage presets. Otherwise they clutter up the GUI with lots of options.
09:12:19 <planetmaker> like, say, a stations preset with a certain landscape preset. or alike
09:12:31 <planetmaker> andythenorth, they are a drop down...
09:12:46 <planetmaker> or you meant my "add preset" pony?
09:15:23 <andythenorth> particularly 'remove'
09:15:37 * andythenorth has to work...but these might be worth improving
09:16:16 <planetmaker> yes... that would need a new window, I guess
09:17:32 <andythenorth> and if we want presets for map, AI....it should be a generic solution
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11:00:55 <Eddi|zuHause> you forgot "tri tra..."
11:07:54 <Ammler> "de chasperli isch wieder da"
11:18:06 <Rubidium> that doesn't look very English to me
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11:19:01 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't look very german either ;)
11:21:08 <Ammler> Rubidium: chasperli = Jan Klaassen
11:21:28 <Ammler> (according to wikipedia)
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11:55:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19784 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp:
11:55:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#3770]: if a waypoint is immediately followed by a path signal a
11:55:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: reservation would be made from that path signal before the waypoint is marked
11:55:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: passed. As a result the order to go to the waypoint is used to reserve the path
11:55:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: after the waypoint and as such trains get lost
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13:02:41 <dihedral> what happend to that little zodttd? :-P
13:04:27 <Eddi|zuHause> last i heard was trouble with the license, don't know if that was resolved
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13:09:48 <dihedral> last i heard was that he was trying to do what it takes to comply
13:11:54 <dihedral> perhaps Rubidium knows more?
13:20:14 <Eddi|zuHause> good morning, Belugas.
13:20:44 <Belugas> good afternoone sir Eddi|zuHause
13:20:55 <Belugas> hi hi ho sir dihedral
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14:16:28 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19785 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: reorder/rework the checks for CheckNextTrainTile a bit, causing the whole function to be a few percent faster and hopefully better to understand
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15:49:46 <Belugas> mmmh... conflicts and conflicts... i should update more frequently
15:52:17 <Noldo> would it save you from conflicts+
15:52:47 <glx> less changes means less conflicts ;)
15:54:48 <Noldo> would it work without the plurals
16:04:11 <Zuu> Too few proposals at the forum tonight. Not good, not good. :-p
16:05:03 <Zuu> Impossible to get much coding done on the train so what shall one do? :-p
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16:25:02 <Belugas> Zuu, move to OOMAP ;)
16:25:36 <Zuu> But that requires typing... which is kind of ackward on a a laptop on a train.
16:26:40 <Zuu> Could grab my kinesis from my bag but it is still a bit ackward on a train.
16:27:41 <Zuu> Maybe I can come up with a new meaning of OOMAP which reduces the implementation time. :-p
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17:12:04 <Belugas> ha... now... that sounds like an interesting acronym
17:13:42 <ccfreak2k> Object-Oriented Meta Allocation Protocol
17:14:40 <peter1138> Obviously Objectional Music Altogether Pop
17:14:56 <Zuu> ccfreak2k: does that make the project easier to implement?
17:15:17 <Zuu> An open ocean map would be just flat and blue so that would be easy.
17:16:02 <ccfreak2k> Zuu, depends on if you know how to use malloc.
17:16:30 <ccfreak2k> Although the "meta" qualifier means you might not even have to use malloc.
17:34:23 <peter1138> int mapsize = 8192 * 8192; for (i = 0; i < mapsize; i++) { byte *ptr = malloc(1); }
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17:45:53 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19786 /trunk/src/lang/ (polish.txt russian.txt turkish.txt unfinished/irish.txt):
17:45:53 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:53 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: irish - 95 changes by tem
17:45:53 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: polish - 2 changes by xine
17:45:53 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: russian - 6 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:45:55 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: turkish - 3 changes by niw3
17:46:27 <peter1138> just amused that that guy got a highlight and left :)
17:47:41 <SpComb> malloc() smells, I suggest you should stop using it alltogether in the OpenTTD codebase
17:48:41 <frosch123> yup, use new byte() instead
17:49:17 <Rubidium> just static byte our_memory[1234567890];
17:49:34 <frosch123> new is the ultimate way to call a constructor, destructors are called automatically, delete is never needed
17:49:52 <frosch123> (at least some code looks like that)
17:50:40 <frosch123> Rubidium: better skip the static. memory on stack is also freed automatically
17:53:05 <Rubidium> oh yes, global variables are BAD
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17:56:43 * Belugas throws a lot of code to the trash can
17:59:29 <peter1138> openttd... one big global variable
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18:13:15 <andythenorth> "goods grows towns" strikes again :P
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18:36:11 <Progman> I cannot edit a bug in FS, can I? (typo)
18:36:51 <Yexo> no, you can only edit your own responses
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18:48:22 <OwenS> And the PM has now resigned
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18:49:49 * planetmaker is delighted that there's already window planes implemented in the widget system :-)
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19:11:54 * andythenorth ponders what to draw
19:15:02 <andythenorth> is a disk icon still a good metaphor for save?
19:17:29 <amalloy1> you could use princess toadstool/peach instead. everyone knows you have to save her
19:19:25 <frosch123> andythenorth: do you know some editor which does not use a floppy for save?
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19:20:22 <andythenorth> frosch123: opengfx?
19:20:47 <frosch123> oh you can use it to edit files?
19:21:30 <andythenorth> this is for the 'save preset' icon
19:21:30 <andythenorth> floppy disk in 8x8 pixels
19:22:52 <andythenorth> some people use an arrow pointing to a folder....but not in 8x8 px :P
19:24:35 <frosch123> 8x8 is very small :)
19:26:13 * andythenorth is not convinced by this idea
19:26:36 <frosch123> ther are some 12x12 floppy on google
19:26:41 <frosch123> but nothing smaller
19:27:22 <frosch123> you could use a star for "new" simliar to create vehicle groups.
19:27:31 <frosch123> plus looks more like "add"
19:28:04 <andythenorth> floppy disk and alternative arrow->box icon
19:28:44 <frosch123> err, when did you look at a floppy last time?
19:29:38 <OwenS> Yeah. At least the notch is on the right side though
19:30:06 <OwenS> And jeez... I always forget just how unreadable the default font is
19:31:22 * andythenorth had a floppy boot disk for the mac once, in about 1998
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19:33:19 <frosch123> remove group uses a cross, that could also work here
19:33:24 * andythenorth thinks drawing a recognisable flopping disk in 8x8 px with *just one colour* might be bonkers
19:33:38 <andythenorth> cross or trash can. we use both in web apps, depending on context
19:33:57 <andythenorth> trash can usually implies 'undelete' is possible
19:34:05 <frosch123> oh, you want to keep it monochrome?
19:34:13 <andythenorth> that's the GUI style :P
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19:35:38 <frosch123> the rescan button is imo weird. how about putting it next to content download?
19:36:11 <andythenorth> dunno, doesn't it refresh the inactive list? therefore should be near it....
19:36:21 <andythenorth> I want to move content download....
19:36:25 <andythenorth> but I'm not sure where
19:37:53 <frosch123> also, shouldn't the activate/deactivate buttons get slightly higher
19:38:05 <andythenorth> I think they would be much more usable that way
19:38:07 <frosch123> thin as the listentries looks too thin
19:38:29 <andythenorth> I am trying to stick to the conventions, but maybe it's time to evolve a little :)
19:38:51 <andythenorth> bigger hit targets would be easier
19:39:19 <frosch123> where would you put a toggle-static-grf button?
19:39:29 <andythenorth> dunno. what does it do?
19:40:23 <frosch123> it allows adding of landscape grf and other unimportant stuff on client side
19:40:48 <Yexo> a third list for that would be most clear
19:40:56 <frosch123> hmm, but maybe it is wrong in the generate world gui
19:41:19 <andythenorth> planetmaker has made a case for this stuff being in 'options'
19:41:31 <frosch123> hmm, too bad, you cannot change static grfs while the game is running though
19:41:58 <frosch123> so maybe it should be rather some button in join-multiplayer game
19:42:18 <Yexo> <frosch123> hmm, too bad, you cannot change static grfs while the game is running though <- in theory that could work, not?
19:42:48 <Yexo> reapplying grfs shouldn't change the game state at all if the exact same grfs are found, after all that is now joining a multiplayer game works
19:43:11 <frosch123> Yexo: but for example, we disable static grfs, when normal grfs ask whether they are present
19:43:19 <frosch123> so you would also somehow reload the normal grfs
19:43:34 <frosch123> and for removing static newgrfs you likely also have to reload newgrfs
19:43:38 <Yexo> yes, changing static grfs would mean reloading _all_ grfs
19:43:52 * andythenorth contemplates putting the words back for save / delete presets
19:45:28 <frosch123> Yexo: also, currently reloading newgrfs resets engines. irrc loading savegames loads the engine stuff in some temporary place first, then loads the grfs, and activates the temporary stuff from before
19:47:48 <andythenorth> current mockup is 640x390
19:48:01 * andythenorth ponders a 640x480 version
19:48:07 <Yexo> frosch123: to reloading newgrfs would need to save all engine data in a temp array, then reload it after reloading the newgrfs
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19:48:38 <frosch123> maybe we should already do that today :)
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20:05:18 <Rubidium> andythenorth: do I read FS#3602 right if I think it can be closed now?
20:07:35 <andythenorth> Rubidium: my method was a bad one. Yexo has a patch that simply enforces 1 tile separation around industries.
20:07:51 <andythenorth> so yes, #FS3602 is no longer relevant
20:07:56 <andythenorth> but the issue is still there
20:08:08 <andythenorth> I don't fancy fixing it with nfo for every layout for every industry
20:10:33 <andythenorth> I tested it, works great.
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20:13:07 * andythenorth hates the rescan button
20:14:54 <frosch123> yeah, it is not important at all for the average user
20:15:06 <frosch123> maybe it should be turned into a console command :p
20:15:50 <frosch123> ohoh, some "reload" is quite common
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20:16:27 * andythenorth reverts to the 'refresh' icon.
20:16:36 <Yexo> reloading the newgrf is done every time a new game / save game is started
20:16:50 <frosch123> Yexo: rescan the disk for new grf files
20:17:02 <frosch123> which someone copied there while ottd was running
20:17:23 <Yexo> imo a console command for that is enough
20:17:30 <frosch123> so, quite rarely. but every web browser also has an reload button
20:18:23 <Yexo> adding the console command is a good idea anyway, as dedicated servers currently have no way to rescan for new newgrf files
20:19:09 <frosch123> what do they need that for?
20:19:19 <frosch123> can you add newgrf on a dedicated server?
20:19:30 <frosch123> resp. start a new game with different newgrfs?
20:19:48 <frosch123> or do you mean adding those as well :)
20:20:05 <Yexo> frosch123: there is a config setting to reload the config file every time a new game is started
20:20:26 <Yexo> so you can upload a newgrf to the server (via ssh/ftp/whatever), then change the config file, then start a new game without closing the server
20:20:53 <Yexo> it all works, except if you add a newgrf to the config file that you just uploaded as no rescan is done (or can be done)
20:21:36 <frosch123> ok, i guess rescanning newgrfs whenever a config is reloaded is too annoying
20:21:56 <Yexo> actually that is also a good solution I think
20:22:15 <Yexo> when the config is reloaded a new game is started, so a few seconds more doesn't matter much
20:23:17 <andythenorth> not as elegant, but maybe more usable
20:23:37 * frosch123 liked the smaller start button on the right
20:24:11 <andythenorth> could be restored
20:24:44 <andythenorth> I think it's more balanced with a centred button....easy to change though
20:25:28 <frosch123> close/continue buttons are always in the bottomright corner, aren't they?
20:25:34 <andythenorth> in my world, yes
20:25:45 <andythenorth> all my web forms are constructed that way
20:26:06 <andythenorth> it leaves the bottom left as the obvious place for 'check online content'
20:26:22 <andythenorth> hmmm.....'check online content'.....better wording?
20:27:34 <frosch123> s/check/Download/ ?
20:28:04 <frosch123> in firefox i click "download add-ons"
20:29:23 <andythenorth> How many other places have to change if that button is changed?
20:31:09 <frosch123> STR_NEWGRF_SETTINGS_FIND_MISSING_CONTENT_BUTTON :{BLACK}Find missing content online
20:31:10 <frosch123> STR_NEWGRF_SETTINGS_FIND_MISSING_CONTENT_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Check whether the missing content can be found online
20:31:17 <frosch123> maybe those two, nothing more
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20:33:38 <andythenorth> my firefox has 'Get Add-ons'
20:33:46 <andythenorth> 'Get' or 'Download' ?
20:34:26 <frosch123> no idea, my "download" was just translating back to english :p
20:45:07 * Rubidium wonders whether there should be some style guide w.r.t. colours of windows and the meaning of said colour
20:45:11 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: glx * r19787 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Fix: compilation with MinGW GCC 4.5.0 and UNICODE
20:45:41 <Rubidium> so all configuration related windows have the same colour
20:46:04 <SpComb> you can hardly find the Start Game button
20:46:41 <andythenorth> also resp. buttons
20:46:41 <Rubidium> *but* I think that such a style guide would imply redesigning all windows
20:47:02 <andythenorth> I have just invented a new button size :P
20:47:23 <frosch123> as long as you do not add light blue and yellow windows as in tto
20:48:11 <andythenorth> I am minimising the use of highlight colour. Not everything can 'stand out'
20:48:19 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19788 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: make FOR_EACH_SET_BIT not change the value of the passed bit variable, i.e. allow expressions as parameter
20:48:25 <frosch123> tto is very colourful :p
20:49:12 <frosch123> anyway, i am going to leave till sunday or so
20:49:41 <frosch123> long weekend in weird catholic states :p
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21:00:10 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19789 /trunk/src/core/bitmath_func.hpp: -Add [FS#3519]: a typed FOR_EACH_SET_BIT (adf88)
21:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> what makes the weekend longer than in weird protestant states?
21:00:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought thursday was a federal holiday...
21:01:12 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19790 /trunk/src/ (cargotype.h station_gui.cpp): -Change: use the typed FOR_EACH_SET_BIT for CargoIDs (adf88)
21:02:10 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19791 /trunk/src/ (road_cmd.cpp road_func.h): -Change: use the typed FOR_EACH_SET_BIT for RoadTypes (adf88)
21:02:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19792 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Change: use the typed FOR_EACH_SET_BIT for Tracks (adf88)
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23:24:53 <Fixer> wandering in that late time... i've got many and LARGE bridges and signals beetwen them (automatically)... they are slow downing my trains... is that neccesary to put them?
23:27:59 <Nite_Owl> long bridges are a problem in that only one train can be on them at a time
23:30:31 <Nite_Owl> there can be no signals on the actual bridge so only one train can be on them
23:32:01 * Fixer is reading article about signals
23:43:08 <Nite_Owl> although now that I think about it I wonder if that has changed with path signals
23:53:25 <Nite_Owl> need to feed - later all
continue to next day ⏵
