IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-05-10
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00:00:14 <Eoin> No one in scotland likes the tories
00:00:25 <OwenS> Yeah, they only got one seat
00:00:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Eoin: i thought they got one seat
00:00:41 <Eoin> not one seat changed in scotland
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00:00:44 <Eoin> we are all like "change"
00:00:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that means at least in one section, a "majority" likes them ;)
00:01:04 <Eoin> nearer you get to england
00:01:08 <Eoin> more they tories are loved
00:01:17 <Eoin> tories came fourth in my seat
00:01:23 <Eoin> labour > snp > lib dem > tories
00:01:35 <Eoin> and other half of city was
00:01:41 <Eoin> snp > labour > lib dem > tories
00:03:00 <OwenS> Mine was Lab >> Con >> LD (held); south was Con > Lab > LD (By .5%!), East was LD >> Lab > Con, with a 21.8% to LD swing
00:57:47 <orudge> Eoin: see, if we had PR though, the Tories would have half a dozen or so seats in Scotland
00:58:01 <orudge> there are certainly quite a few Tory supporters, just not quite as many as there are Labour and SNP :p
01:04:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the drawback of pure proportional sytem, it does not properly recognise locally founded parties
01:21:53 <Eoin> PR for all partys but tories ukip and bnp
02:51:10 <ccfreak2k> <Knifa> no one in scotland
02:51:10 <ccfreak2k> <Knifa> voted for conservatives
02:51:10 <ccfreak2k> <Knifa> but they still got the most votes somehow.
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06:36:04 <arkenklo> hey, yeah, sorry for storming in and being an ass, I've looked everywhere and haven't found an answer. How do you open up the "local authority" window?
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06:44:41 <blathijs> Arkenklo: IIRC you need to click a town's name
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09:35:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19776 /trunk/src/script/script_scanner.cpp: -Change: don't scan for tars in the script scanner; it has already happened.
09:37:29 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19777 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp fileio_func.h network/network_content.cpp): -Change: use the file scanner to find the .tars
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09:44:00 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19778 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Change: use the value from PATH_MAX (POSIX) for MAX_PATH (Windows/OpenTTD) if it exists
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09:49:25 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19779 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp fileio_func.h): -Change: add a return type to AppendPathSeparator and use that to determine whether we could append the path separator. If not, do not recurse into that directory as the path would exceed the maximum path length
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09:51:02 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19780 /trunk/src/os/unix/unix.cpp: -Fix [FS#3807]: make sure that when checking whether a path + filename are valid the whole string can be constructed within an array of length MAX_PATH. If not, the name is too long and is deemed invalid
10:09:00 <OwenS> Whoa, looks like I got my Eva Platinum tin box just in time. They're now at £100 :o
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11:52:13 <andythenorth> can we teach the AI to build rivers?
11:53:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you would have to start an AI in the scenario editor first
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11:54:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth, first we'd have to teach us building rivers ingame. Something which is easily solved but I don't know anymore why it wasn't wanted back then
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11:54:28 <andythenorth> can we make it possible for rivers to be built in game?
11:54:44 <Redirect_Left> isn't that a just a big canal?
11:54:52 <andythenorth> it's a canal with funny sprites :)
11:55:00 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I even have a patch for that somewhere...
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11:55:30 <Eddi|zuHause> ... i have this old river generation patch lying around
11:55:31 <planetmaker> updating should be fairly simple
11:55:32 <andythenorth> did anyone try river generation algorithms?
11:55:38 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you, too? ;-)
11:55:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but it depends on rivers on half-slopes
11:55:52 <planetmaker> andythenorth, afaik only Eddi and myself tried
11:55:58 <andythenorth> I wondered if it would be fun for an AI....just start at the coast and work upwards, trying to take turns every so often
11:56:14 <planetmaker> sounds like the wrong concept for river generation.
11:56:25 <planetmaker> It's not an AI task. It's a generic game task
11:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause> also it needs improvements wrt. getting stuck at minor or major obstacles
11:56:52 <planetmaker> using an AI doesn't really offer an advantage there IMHO
11:57:12 <planetmaker> yeah... slopes are a bitch. That's where the assertions strike
11:57:30 <planetmaker> and path finding. That's where it starts to look funny under certain conditions
11:58:18 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i just started somewhere, and went until there was a sink in the tgp-heightmap
11:58:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but this way, rivers tend to end on seemingly flat terrain
11:58:52 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, that results in lakes
11:59:12 <planetmaker> If you walk up it works, too, but rivers might be quite short...
11:59:24 <andythenorth> in some countries canals are major civil projects (rather than commercial projects), so a canal-building AI could be fun
11:59:26 <andythenorth> AI for major infrastructure projects?
11:59:26 <andythenorth> we'd need a way to send it money via taxes :P
12:00:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth, no need for that. Just make it build routes with a vehicle preference. And proper algorithm. Then those things will happen automatically
12:00:39 <planetmaker> Look at current road AIs. They build huge road networks.
12:00:44 <andythenorth> I'm surprised by all you Europeans being so free-market :P
12:00:46 <planetmaker> Teach them to build highways and you're set
12:01:07 <planetmaker> highways as opposed to the normal roads they congest now
12:01:56 *** Guest214 is now known as George
12:02:15 <George> 1188 * 12 02 00 92 84 C1 00 00 02 90 00 91 00
12:02:15 <George> // 1188 * 11 02 00 92 83 00 00 02 90 00 91 00
12:02:28 <George> is the first line correct?
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12:03:28 * planetmaker finds uncommented NFO quite hard to read as it needs numerous look-ups in the wiki
12:04:13 <Progman> s/uncommented (NFO quite hard to read).*/$1/
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12:24:35 <planetmaker> George3, I doubt that C1 is a proper position within the consist
12:25:05 <George3> what value would mean first vehicle in the chain with the same ID?
12:25:50 <Ammler> George3: you really code that way?
12:26:53 <Ammler> then decoded "George-GRFs" _are_ like sources :-)
12:27:36 <planetmaker> reading the docs it sounds right, though
12:29:22 <planetmaker> looks ok, though you use no random triggers nor random bits (you mask out everything)
12:29:54 <planetmaker> or I don't understand it. Rather likely
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12:32:54 <planetmaker> I'd try ...C1 8D 03...
12:33:40 <planetmaker> or whatever reason you want to call the randomizer, change the 2nd byte I quoted
12:34:07 <George> random-triggers 00 - when build
12:34:32 <George> randbit 00 is bit 0 is first bit
12:35:38 <planetmaker> it's a mask. And I don't see where you get the 00 = when build information from
12:35:58 <George> or untriggered bits, set only at the time of purchase
12:36:29 <planetmaker> the link you gave doesn't stat that.
12:36:43 <planetmaker> 0 01 Vehicle gets new load of cargo (only after it was empty)
12:36:43 <planetmaker> 1 02 Vehicle enters a depot and is serviced
12:36:43 <planetmaker> 2 04 The consist has unloaded all cargo
12:36:43 <planetmaker> 3 08 Any vehicle of the consist receives cargo
12:36:43 <planetmaker> 4 10 Callback 32 returned 1
12:36:52 <planetmaker> ^ those triggers are available. No "upon build"
12:37:10 <George> This is a bit mask of triggers which cause re-randomizing. Normally, any matching trigger causes the graphics to be randomized again, but if you add 80 to the bitmask, the re-randomizing only happens if all triggers have occurred.
12:37:10 <George> Trigger bits are feature-specific, see below.
12:37:12 <George> For versions before 2.0.1 alpha 30, leave this at 00. It doesn't quite work the way intended (it was supposed to allow independent random chains, but currently everything is re-randomized at the same time, thereby defeating this mechanism).
12:37:14 <George> Since 2.0.1 alpha 30, only those bits that actually get triggered will be re-randomized. Prior versions always re-randomized all bits. This will make it possible to have independent sets of bits for independent triggers (or untriggered bits, set only at the time of purchase). Setting randbit determines the first bit to be re-randomized, as well as basing the random graphics on. The total number of bits used is the 2-logarithm of nrand below (e.g., for nrand
12:37:55 <planetmaker> I don't read your conclusion from that
12:38:08 <George> it says "or untriggered bits, set only at the time of purchase"
12:38:46 <George> that means that on purchase the randomisations always happens
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12:39:08 <George> and value 00 means no randomisation in future
12:41:02 <planetmaker> set randbit to 01
12:43:24 <planetmaker> you want to start with the 1st bit :-)
12:43:29 <planetmaker> and it's a bit mask
12:46:20 <George> wiki says "Setting randbit determines the first bit to be re-randomized"
12:46:46 <George> value 00 means start from first bit
12:47:10 <planetmaker> well. Then it is correct. Does it work for you?
12:47:35 <planetmaker> If not you might actually say what _does_ bother you
12:47:53 <planetmaker> instead of asking around your problem and having us doe guesswork
12:48:10 <Rubidium> that I have to do some shopping right now
12:48:35 <George> for me this part works as intended
12:48:40 <planetmaker> enjoy your feminine side, Rubidium ;-)
12:48:59 <planetmaker> ... err, George, so?
12:49:24 <planetmaker> it works for you, it is correct according to your wiki reading. So what's the real issue?
12:49:33 <George> as for randomization 84 count c1 I get problem
12:50:13 <George> I currently made the following workaround, but it was not what I intended
12:50:21 <George> 1188 * 11 02 00 92 80 00 00 02 90 00 91 00
12:50:21 <George> 1189 * 12 02 00 93 84 41 00 00 02 90 00 91 00
12:50:21 <George> 1190 * 12 02 00 94 84 42 00 00 02 90 00 91 00
12:50:21 <George> 1191 * 12 02 00 95 84 43 00 00 02 90 00 91 00
12:50:21 <George> 1192 * 22 02 00 96 81 41 00 03 03
12:50:26 <George> // 1188 * 12 02 00 92 84 C1 00 00 02 90 00 91 00
12:50:26 <George> // 1188 * 11 02 00 92 83 00 00 02 90 00 91 00
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12:51:38 <peter1138> ahh, the well documented NFO strikes again
12:51:44 <George> So, as you can see I test the position in the chan, but it is not absolutely correct
12:52:41 <planetmaker> For type 84, this specifies which vehicle's random bits this vehicle will be using and/or modifying.
12:55:06 <George> planetmaker: yes, but the problem is that how can I test the whole chain?
12:55:45 <George> I supposed value C1 would mean the first one in a row, but it does not work
12:56:39 <peter1138> no, that is not well documented NFO either
12:58:23 <George> peter1138: can you make the example of well documented NFO for these lines?
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12:59:26 <planetmaker> see lines 146 following
12:59:30 <Eddi|zuHause> George: ideally, each byte, word or dword is commented individually on what it means
13:00:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but in the end, it's not the quantity of comments that matters
13:01:23 * peter1138 remembers the days before the pts/x switchover
13:01:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what matters is that someone who doesn't code NFO every day can understand what's supposed to be going on without flipping back and forth in the specs
13:01:36 <George> Well, back to topic. is value C1 correct and should check random bits of the first vehicle in a row with the same ID?
13:01:49 <peter1138> tons of /dev/ttyPx entries instead
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13:02:31 * planetmaker has no real clue about those random2 variables
13:02:55 <peter1138> hehe, what was the question?
13:07:03 <Eddi|zuHause> ... hm... i shouldn't try to do three things simultaneously
13:08:59 <peter1138> so the C1 makes it start from the first vehicle in the chain with the same ID
13:09:15 <peter1138> the 1 makes it take the next vehicle
13:13:16 <peter1138> George, does that make sense?
13:19:23 <George> Currently trying to make a test GRF and a bug report
13:19:42 <George> I just wanted to ask first if my code is correct
13:19:55 <George> According to the discussion - it should
13:19:56 <planetmaker> even incorrect code must not trigger a crash
13:19:58 <peter1138> do you know where in the chain it crashes?
13:20:57 <George> The crash happens when I press "new vehicle" bottom in depot
13:22:38 <peter1138> looks like it could happen if the vehicle doesn't actually exist yet
13:23:37 <George> you mean "beacuse the vehicle doesn't actually exist yet"?
13:24:07 <peter1138> if. i don't know yet.
13:25:19 <George> but in purchase window it does not exist yet, doesn't it?
13:25:28 <peter1138> it doesn't crash in the purcahse window though
13:25:37 <peter1138> it crashes when you build it
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13:25:50 <George> so, I should make the test GRF, right?
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13:26:25 <George> <@peter1138> it crashes when you build it - no. when I try to open purchase window
13:27:30 <peter1138> it calls self->First() when self could be NULL
13:28:16 <George> do you mean you do not need a test GRF, you have found a problem already?
13:29:39 <peter1138> do you compile your own openttd?
13:30:00 <peter1138> well that's not helpful
13:31:04 <peter1138> ^ that's probably your first
13:31:06 <peter1138> ^ that's probably your fix
13:31:10 <peter1138> but i can't test it, so
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13:50:19 <Eddi|zuHause> how is that a "chinese" concept? i have seen "moving platforms" etc. in a german TV show 20 years ago...
13:51:40 <__ln__> is there something the chinese wouldn't copy
13:52:20 <Doorslammer> Its a ridiculous idea
13:58:47 <theholyduck> Doorslammer, well it could work in theory, if albeit a bit impractical both from the point of view of drag, not to mention making the transition smooth
13:58:59 <theholyduck> and finally, what if loads of people wants to board the train?
13:59:11 <Doorslammer> Oh, I don't think that's the biggest worry here
13:59:25 <Doorslammer> Ah, you got it there with the last point
14:00:53 <Doorslammer> I bet their current catenary requirements have scuppered it already too
14:01:24 * theholyduck wishes the norwegian train system was more reliable
14:01:51 <theholyduck> there has been only minimal maintenance on it for years apparently.
14:01:57 <theholyduck> and now its falling appart everywhere
14:02:45 <Doorslammer> The opposite has an even funnier ring to it
14:03:02 <theholyduck> the only good part is the relativly cheap 1st class wagon and the silent wagon
14:03:07 <theholyduck> because they're almost always empty
14:03:08 <Doorslammer> Not long ago, a suburban EMU got caught up in some wires
14:03:18 <Doorslammer> Public and media reaction to it?
14:03:26 <theholyduck> where as the rest of the trains can be way overcrowded
14:03:27 <Doorslammer> "Why on earth did this happen?"
14:05:32 <Doorslammer> Like things don't break on catenary systems...
14:08:05 <Doorslammer> lol, did anyone read the comment under that article?
14:08:22 <Doorslammer> MICHAEL j. sCHMITZ says:
14:08:23 <Doorslammer> April 26, 2010 at 3:18 am
14:08:23 <Doorslammer> LOOKS SLEEK, BUT I WONDER IF IT FLIES OVER EARTHQUAKES. NOW IS CHINA READY TO BUY MY EARTHQUAKE SOLUTION YET. THEY ALL ORIGINATE IN ONE LOCATION, IN ONE COUNTRY WHERE IF MY SOLUTION IF IMPLEMENTED THERE, IT WILL DELETE ALL EARTHQUAKES AND QUAKE RELATED TSUNAMIS. retired524@wildblue.net
14:11:09 <Doorslammer> Why on earth do you ask?
14:11:47 <theholyduck> Doorslammer, that comment made me lol
14:12:01 <theholyduck> Doorslammer, there was a huge train related accident in norway this year actually
14:12:12 <theholyduck> Doorslammer, some trains at a station came loose or something
14:12:19 <theholyduck> at the top of a hill
14:12:30 <theholyduck> and went down sevral km of hills
14:12:32 <Doorslammer> Crikey, in Norway?
14:12:37 <theholyduck> untill derailing and flying straight through a dock
14:12:44 <theholyduck> through houses, cars, and what not
14:12:46 <theholyduck> Doorslammer, yeah
14:13:54 <Doorslammer> How on earth can something like that happen in 2010. Did we suddenly fly back to 1889 or something?
14:14:00 <Doorslammer> Something similar in South Africa too
14:14:46 <theholyduck> Doorslammer, well the breaks didnt work
14:14:55 <theholyduck> Doorslammer, they did manage to route it off the trafficated lines
14:15:02 <theholyduck> but didnt have time to get people out of the way
14:15:14 <Doorslammer> Thats still a bit mad
14:15:36 <theholyduck> hit the "neste" button to see various pics
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15:28:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i wrote a reply on the forum, hope it's helpful...
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16:28:12 <OwenS> Mazur: Please keep away notifications to /away and /back...
16:28:35 <Belugas> or you'll be away and not back any time soon
16:28:54 <Belugas> hey... that was not me!
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16:35:53 <OwenS> Whoa! Gordon Brown to resign!
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17:11:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19781 /trunk/ (config.lib src/network/core/os_abstraction.h src/stdafx.h): -Fix [FS#3809]: compilation on NetBSD failed (Krille)
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17:24:33 <Wolf01> gah internet connection freezed.. it's too slow, I can't even open tt-forums... maybe I should try to odd open it :|
17:27:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19782 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix [FS#3828]: NULL pointer deference when testing relative scope *action2 on an unbuilt engine.
17:28:50 <Wolf01> I want to code an addin to the transparent toolbar: transparent roads/rails, at least one could see what's under the road.
17:29:28 <peter1138> but there isn't anything under the road
17:30:22 <Wolf01> For me it's useful because I often place 2 parallel one-way roads to simulate the highways, and to stop cities/competitors to spawn crossings all around I dig the terrain in the middle
17:30:45 <Wolf01> So I need to see where the terrain is plain and where it's dug :P
17:33:34 <Belugas> Wolf01, there is nothing under the road/rail. it's plain grass
17:34:17 <Wolf01> but there is a trench under my road!
17:35:09 <peter1138> There isn't. It's filled by the foundations.
17:39:20 * Belugas enjoys The Cure, from all era
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17:45:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19783 /trunk/src/lang/ (polish.txt russian.txt):
17:45:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: polish - 5 changes by xine
17:45:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: russian - 24 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:47:00 <Belugas> Wolf01 : [13:35] <@peter1138> There isn't. It's filled by the foundations.
17:47:55 <Wolf01> at least I should see the foundations
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17:51:52 <Belugas> 'cause on top of the foundations, there is only grass :)
17:53:13 <Wolf01> and overlaying a transparent sloped tile over the road?
17:58:14 <Belugas> Wolf01, and what to do when there are no slopes?
17:58:53 <Belugas> then your not really better
17:59:05 <Belugas> two standards are bad, i'd say
17:59:19 <Belugas> one for foundations, one for nothing
17:59:34 <Wolf01> then draw a plane tile, so it looks like the road is transparent
18:04:19 <Belugas> so... basically, you're saying that roads should be transparent and invisible
18:04:42 <Belugas> aqnd right now, they are just invisible
18:06:28 <Wolf01> if you draw a transparent overlay, like it works for bridges, houses.. the roads should look like transparent too, but we need to add the overlay only when the transparency is active
18:07:16 <Wolf01> there is no need to draw the standard tile + the transparent road tile when the road is "solid"
18:08:28 <COLT> are ther any Bananas admin ??
18:08:28 <Wolf01> it might require a little change here and there, but I think it's easy to do
18:10:44 <Ammler> (if they don't answer here)
18:11:52 <COLT> One of our members quit and we don't have contact with him. We want to delete old version of Polish Set from bananas but we dont have account passwords etc . is possible to delete Polish Set 1.5a from Bananas by the admin.
18:12:11 <COLT> I'am Polish Set developer
18:12:36 <Ammler> but you could upload a new version, then the old isn't available anymore
18:12:39 <COLT> then how to remove it from bananas
18:12:55 <Ammler> or hide it with min/max version
18:12:57 <Belugas> Wolf01, it "feels" decent, i'd say
18:14:01 <Ammler> they do delete only, if the upload was against the TOS
18:14:05 <COLT> "One of our members quit and we don't have contact with him. We want to delete old version of Polish Set from bananas but we dont have account passwords etc" thats a problem
18:14:41 <Ammler> but you could ask them to move the set to an other account
18:14:48 <COLT> and on bananas are two versions of Polish Set
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18:15:10 <COLT> i make new account to upload new version
18:15:37 <Ammler> but then you have 3 different?
18:16:45 <COLT> iur member have account and quit on his account is Polish Set 1.5a
18:17:07 <COLT> i make new account to upload new version of Set
18:17:29 <Ammler> COLT: you should ask them to move it to you
18:17:33 <Ammler> so you can update that
18:18:01 <Ammler> so the old set will automatically be hidden
18:19:47 <COLT> i wrote post on forum maybe that helps :)
18:20:08 <Ammler> I would recommend to use "set account" if you are team, but TB doesn't like that.
18:21:03 <Ammler> COLT: or mail to rubidium|truebrain@openttd.org
18:21:08 <planetmaker> COLT: you make yourself an account and ask one of the bananas admins nicely whether they give your account also access to the set
18:21:30 <planetmaker> Though not user-configurable, it's possible for more than one account to have access to an entry
18:21:41 <planetmaker> One thing no single account can do is to delete an old entry.
18:22:11 <planetmaker> And that's something which the TOS state: you agree that things are allowed to be kept eternally on bananas
18:22:52 <planetmaker> good evening andythenorth :-)
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18:23:55 <planetmaker> COLT, but something you should not do is to create a new entry for an update of the Polish train set.
18:24:08 <planetmaker> Then you made sure that the old entry will remain active ;-)
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18:25:10 <Rubidium> planetmaker: they changed the GRF ID, so it's considered a new NewGRF
18:25:36 <COLT> yes i chnged id to can upload
18:26:37 <planetmaker> Rubidium, always? IIRC FIRS and 2cctrainset have already updated old versions by changing the GRFID
18:26:48 <Ammler> else it would still be compatible?
18:27:02 <planetmaker> but might be that at the same time the max version for the old ones was limited to something reasonably low
18:27:12 <Rubidium> planetmaker: don't know whether updating checks for the same NewGRF ID
18:27:18 <Ammler> same entry can have different ID, but not same ID different entries
18:27:21 <planetmaker> Rubidium, I think it doesn't
18:27:33 <planetmaker> (which I consider sensible)
18:27:45 <planetmaker> If the author knows what they do ;-)
18:28:10 <Rubidium> ah, yes... looking at the DB that seems possible
18:28:21 <Ammler> COLT: why do you ask here, if you do anyway what you want?
18:28:27 <planetmaker> even OpenGFX exercised that with the extra newgrf ;-)
18:28:51 <COLT> remove old version of Polish Set 1.5a
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18:28:53 <planetmaker> first act, then ask ;-)
18:29:06 <planetmaker> COLT, that's not possible, won't happen. You agreed that it won't happen.
18:29:09 <planetmaker> Or the old author did
18:29:20 <planetmaker> You even agreed that your current uploaded version will NEVER be removed
18:29:29 <Ammler> some might need that grf for the saves they have
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18:29:44 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I don't think that base sets test GRF IDs
18:30:00 <Rubidium> also, there are two explanations of removing something
18:30:39 <Rubidium> the "removing it from the list that will be shown in-game" vs "removing it completely so it can't be found by GRF ID + md5 checksum anymore"
18:30:52 <Rubidium> the former can be done, the latter won't be done
18:31:53 <Rubidium> there, now he should be happ
18:32:33 <planetmaker> uh... a NC-ND set :-(
18:32:43 <Rubidium> COLT: next time please ask about taking over something before jumping through hoops to get it working/done
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18:33:22 <planetmaker> Rubidium, what license did the old one have?
18:33:53 <COLT> ok one more thanx and sry for a problem
18:34:11 <Ammler> colt, how can a team develop a "ND" set?
18:34:42 <planetmaker> :-) good question. May you modify stuff from the old author? ;-)
18:35:36 <Rubidium> if the copyright is assigned to the same entity there should be no problem at all
18:36:43 <Ammler> Rubidium: I know, it is possible, I just wonder, how they manage such a complex license ;-)
18:38:02 <Ammler> what is a legal entity?
18:39:13 * andythenorth is a legal entity
18:39:17 <planetmaker> Ammler, many things can be. Also a bunch of people
18:39:21 <andythenorth> should vehicle reliability be hidden?
18:39:30 <Wolf01> Belugas, so... it might be a good idea?
18:39:33 <planetmaker> anything which can be sued basically
18:39:43 <andythenorth> or which can hold copyright (for example)
18:39:49 <andythenorth> or enter into a contract
18:39:51 <Ammler> andythenorth: single persons is easy
18:40:12 <planetmaker> andythenorth, "can enter contracts" is - afaik - the important thing
18:40:30 <Belugas> Wolf01, i've not said that. I said it felt decent, mostly talking about the arguments
18:40:52 <Belugas> i don't feel in a postion to say it's a good idea or not
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18:43:54 <andythenorth> planetmaker...I was going to tidy up your newgrf GUI layout, but ChillCore got there first :)
18:44:03 <andythenorth> it looks ok, I can't read the buttons though :O
18:45:52 <frosch123> the details panel is far too small on the horizontal arrangements. it could never take widgets for paramters
18:47:16 <andythenorth> frosch123: from what I can see, most people don't care about that
18:47:55 <andythenorth> the lists are the main thing for most of the players who've commented
18:48:19 <frosch123> because there is nothing much with parameters yet :p
18:48:55 <andythenorth> the people commenting here and on the forums are serious power users of the game. They know the grfs, and they care about things like MD5 sum and the ordering of newgrfs
18:49:41 <andythenorth> meanwhile....I watch the bananas download counts for newgrfs. They are *way* out of proportion to visits to the newgrf forums
18:50:22 <andythenorth> I reckon it's very easy to ignore the experience of all those players who just get the game and only use bananas
18:52:49 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
18:54:04 * andythenorth doesn't have the hump but is a bit baffled by the GUI justifications
18:54:18 <andythenorth> if the lists are so important why keep making them so small? It's bizarre.
18:54:54 <andythenorth> it's like when some of you tell me the proper way to do something with code and I just say "no thanks, I just want a dirty hack" very frustrating :P
18:55:06 <frosch123> whats small about them?
18:55:45 <planetmaker> frosch123: andythenorth I honestly don't care much about whether Alberth's vertical list arrangement or my horizontal one gets implemented
18:55:51 <frosch123> you can always make them to not open in the smallest size
18:55:57 <planetmaker> if the vertical one by Alberth is more future proof: quite fine with me
18:56:23 <andythenorth> Let's all fall out about it ! Fork Fork!
18:56:26 <planetmaker> and yes, I see that the detail information is too small. Chillcore's mockup actually shows it clearly. The 2cctrainset description is truncated in his view
18:56:40 <frosch123> planetmaker: if i got it right, due to nested widgets it does not matter at all, as it can be easily changed :p
18:57:01 <planetmaker> frosch123: quite true
18:57:29 <planetmaker> apropos change: was it agreed upon that the difficulty choice can go without replacement?
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18:57:41 <frosch123> andy has nice button arrangements btw :)
18:57:59 * andythenorth waves bye bye to difficulty
18:58:24 <planetmaker> they're in my local repo already moved to the adv. settings - but now the (old) difficulty window has many undefined strings :-P
18:58:30 <planetmaker> so it has to go ;-)
18:58:42 <andythenorth> I think the 2 list, info below version can be tidied up. I might try. My taste is irrelevant to solving the problem.
18:58:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth: we forgot one thing in the main GUI: the highscore :-)
18:58:59 <frosch123> planetmaker: i do not care about difficulties, but i guess it also requires trashing the highscore. which it do not care either :p
18:59:03 <andythenorth> stupid highscores :)
18:59:08 <frosch123> however, i am not the only one
18:59:26 <planetmaker> frosch123: it doesn't require that. Just making it accessible from the main menu will hopefully work
18:59:43 <frosch123> isn't highscore per difficulty level?
18:59:51 <planetmaker> hm... I don't know :-)
19:00:02 <frosch123> i might be mistaken as well :)
19:00:03 <planetmaker> So far I only moved the settings ;-)
19:01:31 * planetmaker now clones the repo to the devzone
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19:02:36 <frosch123> yes, the highscore is per difficulty level
19:02:42 <frosch123> so only "custom" would remain
19:02:56 <planetmaker> that doesn't really bother me :-)
19:03:05 <frosch123> same would hold for newgrfs (i guess only ecs vectors use it)
19:03:48 <planetmaker> oh, they can read that? Why does no one use it? :-)
19:03:55 <frosch123> ecs disallows turning of stockpiles, resources and such when on "hard" setting
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19:04:54 <frosch123> but i guess, if someone complains then due to removing the highscore or their nice "hard" setting or so
19:05:37 <planetmaker> well. I'm thinking of possibly re-adding that then under the game generation menu
19:06:00 <planetmaker> With a revised list of settings which constitute difficulty levels
19:06:22 <planetmaker> Maybe some kind of indicator in the adv. settings which shows which settings are affected
19:06:52 <planetmaker> And only have the difficulty choice obvious on a 2nd 'new game' tab. Jointly with the amount of towns and industries or so
19:07:34 <planetmaker> So: 1st tab: Only map settings. 2nd, 3rd tab: newgrf + AI, 4th tab: difficulty + access to adv. settings
19:08:02 <planetmaker> + town#, town names
19:08:18 <planetmaker> those things which don't belong strictly to map in the smallest sense
19:08:45 <planetmaker> or that tab is just the diff. settings and the adv. settings displayed below... hm
19:08:59 <planetmaker> sounds nearly like a plan ;-)
19:09:09 <planetmaker> yes, I like talking to myself :-P
19:12:20 <frosch123> i guess one highscore for all settings should be enough
19:13:31 <frosch123> there is no point in distinguishing them by difficulty, as there are more important settings like map size :p
19:14:05 <frosch123> but likely newbies need some kind of highscore until they learn that they have to build 200 busstops or so :p
19:14:25 <planetmaker> actually that assumption isn't true anymore ;-)
19:14:33 <planetmaker> though bus stops help.
19:15:02 <frosch123> i guess highscore should be on main menu
19:15:10 <frosch123> iirc it is there for most games
19:15:26 <planetmaker> I think changing the 'difficulty' button to 'highscores' is what I like to do :-)
19:15:42 <frosch123> would keep the layout :p
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19:16:06 <planetmaker> the main menu layout is something only to be changed once things are (also) found in the game creation dialogue ;-)
19:17:27 * Rubidium wonders what the point of adding two more settings to the map generation window are; there are already too much things to choose from for most people
19:18:39 <planetmaker> Rubidium: you mean those patches I posted?
19:19:15 <planetmaker> those two are two things which one really might want to change from game to game - unlike most adv. settings
19:19:36 <planetmaker> driving side depends upon whether I chose db set or japanese set. As do town names
19:19:42 <andythenorth> planetmaker: resp. towns + industries etc. on a 2nd tab.....that's my conclusion too
19:19:43 <planetmaker> The other settings can remain
19:19:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, that will come
19:19:51 <Rubidium> but then they're more related to NewGRF settings
19:19:57 <andythenorth> hence something like 'gameplay settings' or 'world settings' or some such name
19:20:03 <planetmaker> Rubidium: in a way
19:20:19 <planetmaker> As stated there, they're a first step
19:20:34 <planetmaker> In a 2nd step I'd like to move them to a separate tab in the new game dialogue
19:20:43 <Rubidium> also the language changes are a big mess due to breaking the alignment
19:21:05 <Rubidium> maybe doing it in the reverse order is better
19:21:14 <planetmaker> what in reverse order?
19:21:32 <Rubidium> first making the separate tab with some stuff, then moving the game options to that tab
19:22:16 <planetmaker> yeah, maybe an idea
19:22:26 <andythenorth> he could be right :)
19:24:12 <planetmaker> making tabs is the difficult part of all this anyway :-)
19:24:45 * andythenorth wonders about a pleasing design for the tabs
19:25:01 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you're responsible for the design of that ;-)
19:25:06 <planetmaker> you're the graphics artist :-P
19:25:19 <andythenorth> well it has to be rectangular :)
19:28:21 * planetmaker has an idea and grabs gimp
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19:36:00 * planetmaker is not happy with gimp :S
19:36:18 * frosch123 is happy with coffee
19:36:28 * andythenorth is happy with sea bass
19:39:13 <frosch123> so i guess it is fine to design the gui for advanced users
19:40:18 <planetmaker> outch @ server newgrf list
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19:41:02 <frosch123> it even contains logic train :p
19:42:26 <planetmaker> well. That can make sense :-)
19:42:31 <planetmaker> it cannot use wagons anyway
19:42:51 <andythenorth> I reckon they just download everything on bananas and install it
19:43:02 <frosch123> oh, i guess you use it for silly junctions in regular games
19:43:33 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yeah, that seems to happen more often than one thinks
19:43:41 <planetmaker> frosch123: yes :-P
19:43:47 <andythenorth> well there's no harm in it, but....
19:43:52 <Ammler> planetmaker: cannot != shoudn't ;-)
19:43:55 <planetmaker> though the amount of games we use it is small
19:44:05 <andythenorth> Is it the lack of info? Or just human nature?
19:44:11 <frosch123> and there is still an impressive number of servers which only use generic trams
19:44:53 <frosch123> which i consider as "we know grfs, but we do not want to play with stupid grfs, but we want trams"
19:45:15 * andythenorth thinks of a newgrf gui layout
19:45:30 <andythenorth> it's space efficient but won't be beautiful :|
19:45:43 <Ammler> frosch123: I would consider it as "We have no idea about grfs, but that trams thing was there with 0.6"
19:46:05 <frosch123> i would accept that reason with 0.6, but not 1.0.1
19:46:39 <andythenorth> so if newgrf info doesn't fit in current newgrf window, what is supposed to happen?
19:47:06 <andythenorth> is the answer 'Fail' ?
19:47:25 * andythenorth had never noticed the text truncation before
19:47:51 <Ammler> or it is simply too difficulty to setup a game with grfs on a server.
19:52:23 <devilsadvocate> i usually play with a small set of newgrfs, but i like to move things around on occasion. i'd certainly welcome a new interface
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19:58:08 <nighthawk_c_m> Could a linebreak be coded so Newgrf info is not truncated?
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20:03:38 <Belugas> what do you mean? where?
20:04:22 <andythenorth> nighthawk_c_m: if there isn't room for the text, it has to be truncated no?
20:04:32 <nighthawk_c_m> In that case yes
20:04:47 <nighthawk_c_m> Could it be made in a scrollable window?
20:05:01 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you requested a large info panel for newgrfs
20:05:05 <nighthawk_c_m> like a little scrollbox, might be necessary as sometimes parameters are explained at the end
20:07:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker: what are you gimping? :P
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20:24:27 <andythenorth> frosch123: did your fields patch last night fix 'game blows up when industry is removed'?
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20:26:58 <andythenorth> not currently blowing up :)
20:27:03 <andythenorth> I can't find a way to make it so far
20:27:10 <frosch123> just use landinfo :p
20:27:29 <frosch123> well, smallmap crashes also when industry is not removed
20:27:30 <andythenorth> smallmap seems fine. landinfo is not :)
20:27:49 <frosch123> you need to switch to vegatation or owner map or so
20:28:53 <frosch123> however, you will have to wait some longer. the next weekend is a long weekend, but not for ottd :)
20:30:10 <andythenorth> yup owner map blows up :)
20:30:31 <andythenorth> creating complex field layouts with var 43 is a no no
20:31:16 <frosch123> you cannot maintain any layout after the industry is removed, except you store it earlier in the animation state or so
20:31:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I decided to rather download inkscape :-P+
20:31:38 <frosch123> however, you also have random bits :)
20:32:21 <andythenorth> frosch123: random is fine......but clue for how to store in the animation state?
20:33:43 <frosch123> you have a animation trigger for the construction stage. you can then store some value as animation frame, which you can use as "persistant" storage if you do not need animations
20:34:36 <frosch123> e.g. check surrounding tiles for field dimensions and then store the relative position inside the field in the animation stage
20:35:26 <Chrill> Is there anyone here fluent in German?
20:35:34 <andythenorth> the Germans probably are
20:35:36 <frosch123> but well, if you have a idea how to do layouts via the plant callback :)
20:35:49 <Chrill> Could you please be so kind to translate the following for me: "I have been living there since the age of 1"
20:35:56 <nighthawk_c_m> What do you need Chrill?
20:36:08 <planetmaker> ich habe dort gewohnt seit ich eins bin
20:36:14 * andythenorth used to be able to do *that* much german :o
20:36:19 <planetmaker> ich lebe dort seit ich eins bin
20:36:23 <frosch123> s/eins/ein Jahr alt/
20:36:26 <nighthawk_c_m> Ich lebe hier seit meinem ersten Lebensjahr.
20:37:19 <planetmaker> nighthawk_c_m: you wouldn't say that ;-)
20:37:32 <Chrill> Ich lebe dort seit ich ein Jahr alt bin ??
20:37:33 <planetmaker> that's something I might write in a formal letter though
20:37:50 <frosch123> planetmaker: though it is nice that you stopped your multiple personalities
20:38:05 <nighthawk_c_m> That would work too Chrill, my translation was formal, thats right planetmaker
20:38:11 <frosch123> "seit ich eins bin" :p
20:39:08 <planetmaker> before I was at least three :-P Even Freud already knew that ;-)
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21:04:24 <Belugas> may the night be kind with you Rubidium
21:10:08 <planetmaker> the tabs could probably be mimiced by appropriate button handling
21:10:33 <andythenorth> planetmaker: stick around for 10mins, I'm working on something....
21:10:47 <planetmaker> I'll be there another 10 minutes, yes
21:14:10 <planetmaker> it should be exactly 640x480
21:14:39 <planetmaker> but then it's a mockup only ;-). So inkscape saved the parts which overlap, too
21:15:19 <Zuu> Indeed, those extra pixels does hardly matter.
21:24:39 <Ammler> how do you go forward?
21:24:51 <Zuu> Click at the tabs at the top?
21:25:31 <Zuu> Depends on where you come from.
21:25:32 <Ammler> or obvious at least :-)
21:26:02 <Ammler> well, I know no "wizard" working that way, do you?
21:26:31 <Ammler> tabs might be fine to indicate where you are
21:26:32 <Zuu> Depends if you want to make it like a wizard or more like something with several tabs.
21:26:49 <Ammler> but then you need a button start game
21:27:12 <Zuu> It's at the bottom, always vissible
21:27:28 <planetmaker> Ammler: clicking on tabs is quite logical to me
21:27:37 <Ammler> ah, "Generate World" is a button?
21:27:45 <planetmaker> but next and previous could go next to the generate button in the bottom
21:27:47 <Zuu> The tab-book widget would end not at the bottom but say 60 pixles up from the bottom of the window.
21:28:18 <andythenorth> Ammler it's not a wizard
21:28:27 <andythenorth> it wizard is *really* annoying
21:28:29 <Ammler> andythenorth: yeah, I see now
21:29:28 <andythenorth> planetmaker: in the design above....I would propose a future addition of 'more info'
21:29:38 <andythenorth> for each newgrf (with a popup window)
21:30:27 <andythenorth> I am pushing the two list thing to see if it works
21:30:37 <andythenorth> (side by side lists I should say)
21:30:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth: IMHO in your mockup the tabs are not clearly enough visible as tabs
21:30:48 <andythenorth> nope they aren't very 'tab'
21:31:07 <andythenorth> I'm not happy with those.
21:31:08 <planetmaker> you may notice that I just used Alberth's newgrf GUI ;-)
21:31:16 <Ammler> dunno, if "tab" is openttdish
21:31:30 <Zuu> Old advanced settings dialog had it.
21:31:32 <planetmaker> my mockup rather targeted the gui as a whole with an inset for the others
21:31:51 <planetmaker> Ammler: it's a proven, easily recognizable GUI element
21:31:55 <planetmaker> and what Zuu says
21:32:11 <Ammler> yes, those were buttons like andy made
21:32:12 <Zuu> Depending on if you by 'tab' refer to the kind of gui or making the tabs appear visually as tabs.
21:32:16 <andythenorth> I think on balance I like Alberth's newgrf gui....but tell me, when you have one list above the other, what do the buttons 'move up' and 'move down' imply?
21:32:49 <andythenorth> and arrows don't help either :|
21:33:17 <andythenorth> As a newgrf author I like the big 'info' box in Alberth's design. More space for me :)
21:33:20 <andythenorth> to put words in :)
21:33:28 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I guess those 8 lines which you have in your mockup are quite sufficient in most cases, too
21:33:44 <planetmaker> or one just gives it a few lines more
21:33:44 <andythenorth> there are some missing
21:33:44 <Zuu> Especially if a parameter GUI is made.
21:33:56 <andythenorth> well the lists could be shorter
21:33:57 <Zuu> Then you don't have to explain them in words.
21:34:17 <andythenorth> this is only 390px high right now
21:34:28 <andythenorth> and it will scale to quite a lot less than 480px
21:34:36 <planetmaker> andythenorth: then we have still some space :-)
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21:35:18 <andythenorth> the newgrf names in that mockup are the longest I could find
21:35:42 <planetmaker> yes, they probably are among the longest
21:35:54 <andythenorth> and there is room in the buttons for dutch etc
21:40:48 <planetmaker> should suffcie, yes
21:41:55 <andythenorth> I've moved the 'go' button to be centred and bigger....looks better
21:45:57 <Zuu> andythenorth: Not sure if it is indented, but the online content button is missing as well as the reload button in your last mockup.
21:47:14 <Zuu> As well as the set parameters button.
21:47:49 <Zuu> Though if a parameter gui is made, the palette could be seen as a parameter and do not need a special button.
21:48:17 <andythenorth> I thought it looked nice and simple :)
21:48:22 <Zuu> Just as all AIs have the same setting in common (days to wait before the AI starts)
21:48:38 <Zuu> the same _first_ setting*
21:48:59 <andythenorth> online content is applicable across AIs, maps (heightmaps) and newgrfs?
21:49:28 <Zuu> Yep, it could be placed at the bottom but then you should probably link it to the online content dialog with all types enabled.
21:50:07 <andythenorth> why do we still need reload? Why doesn't reload happen when I open this tab?
21:50:14 <andythenorth> or is there a good optimisation reason?
21:50:21 <Zuu> Or make that a hidden ctrl feature and by default only show the types related to the current tab.
21:50:54 <Yexo> andythenorth: because a reload takes time, I don't want openttd to rescan all newgrfs when I open a different tab on the newgame window
21:51:09 <andythenorth> that's a good reason
21:51:20 <Yexo> I really like your latest mockup :)
21:51:37 <Zuu> You could have a reload icon similar to a browser at the top right corner of the left panel.
21:52:04 <andythenorth> Yexo: you like it because it's simple :P I missed off most of the buttons
21:52:10 <andythenorth> good night Terkhen
21:54:17 <andythenorth> 640px in dutch with two lists becomes challenging :)
21:55:18 <andythenorth> current window has 'parameters' and 'set parameters'
21:55:27 <andythenorth> also 'palette' and 'toggle palette'
21:55:39 * andythenorth sees a simplification
21:56:06 <planetmaker> small arrows next to the "palette" word? ;-)
21:56:13 <andythenorth> like advanced settings
21:56:37 <andythenorth> and there must be something we can do for parameters
21:57:13 <Zuu> For parameters, take a look on how it works for NoAI. But I guess you've seen that dialog :-)
21:58:09 <Zuu> I guess you need in the grf spec to name the settings and give them upper/lower limits.
21:58:30 <andythenorth> Zuu we might need a whole load of stuff to do with strings and bit maps
21:59:05 <andythenorth> but for now I'd be happy to just have a 'set parameters' button in a convenient place
21:59:11 <Zuu> Initially we can leave the parameter guis as they are right now.
21:59:33 <Zuu> Having them in a separate window later will probably be okay.
21:59:44 <Zuu> Or it can be integrated at a later point.
22:00:17 <andythenorth> there's no layout that will fit everyone's wishes into <640px :)
22:00:25 <andythenorth> so a separate window for parameters is fine
22:00:51 <andythenorth> nothing wrong with separate windows :) It's the flow through them that matters :o
22:02:25 <Zuu> In this case I even think it could be good to have a separte window for settings/parameters of NewGRFs/AIs.
22:03:25 <Yexo> I agree, showing the active / available AIs in one window would be nice (same as the new newgrf gui)
22:03:50 <Zuu> Perhaps make the "make active" button double-height and add the parameters button adove/below "make inactive"?
22:06:19 <Zuu> Also nice to have a consistant gui between newgrfs and ais. Though there will be some minor differences. Such as being able to add multiple AIs of the same kind. But those are still small enough that it doesn't stop the posibility to use fairly similar guis.
22:06:59 <planetmaker> good night for now
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22:14:05 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you requested a large info panel for newgrfs <-- no... i mean yes, but that's not what i meant. i meant in the newgrf forum the bit about determining the quadrant
22:14:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: have I missed a message from you somewhere?
22:16:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought you were replying to this: <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i wrote a reply on the forum, hope it's helpful...
22:16:19 <andythenorth> it was helpful thanks
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22:31:28 <andythenorth> too many buttons :P
22:34:38 <andythenorth> why don't AIs have to be reloaded?
22:34:45 <andythenorth> sorry, rescanned
22:41:19 <Yexo> andythenorth: AIs also need to be rescanned if you put a new AI in the ai/ directory
22:41:33 <Yexo> it could be there is currently no button for that in the gui, but there is a commandline function IIRC
22:41:36 <andythenorth> where is the button for that?
22:42:07 * andythenorth wonders if rescan button can be deprecated
22:42:08 <Yexo> AIs are rescanned automatically after downloading some via the online content, and also every time a game is started/loaded
22:42:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the key above tab opens the command line
22:42:56 <andythenorth> the 'rescan' button seems like one button too many
22:43:02 <andythenorth> although I do actually make use of it often
22:44:39 <andythenorth> occasionally I manually add or delete a newgrf
22:44:52 <Yexo> it's a useless button imo, the only case you need it if you manually put some grf in the data directory and want to use it without restarting openttd
22:45:02 <Yexo> but then there is a console command for it
22:45:18 <andythenorth> is there one now? Does reload_newgrfs also rescan?
22:45:52 <andythenorth> not sure right now
22:47:19 <PeterT> andythenorth: looks nice
22:47:29 <andythenorth> I would like to eliminate the rescan button, and I think the buttons for setting newgrf palette / parameters are confusing
22:47:37 <andythenorth> one button 'configure newgrf' would be better
22:47:46 <Yexo> what about adding a scrollbar for the info panel for those newgrfs with a lot of text?
22:47:58 <andythenorth> can't have three vertical scrollbars in a window
22:48:09 <andythenorth> but otherwise....yes :)
22:48:25 <Yexo> something for alberth to work on support for that :)
22:48:45 <andythenorth> how often does the palette need to be switched?
22:48:53 <andythenorth> I've never done it
22:49:31 <Yexo> only if you use base graphics with a windows palette and a newgrf with the dos palette (or the other way around)
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23:07:15 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
23:07:55 <Eddi|zuHause> #Wir sind die Saunafreunde Aufguss 09, der erste deutsche Spitzen Schwitz Verein
23:07:57 <Eddi|zuHause> # Wenn wir in uns'rer spitze Klitsche, auf der glitsche Pritsche schwitzen
23:07:58 <Eddi|zuHause> # Schwitze Schweiß verspritzen, dabei zwetschge Schnäpse zwitschern
23:08:00 <Eddi|zuHause> # Muss man beschwipste Schwitzer schonmal bisschen stützen
23:10:51 <Eddi|zuHause> [try singing that outloud :p]
23:11:54 <__ln__> Deutschland hat leider in Eishockey heute verloren.
23:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i heard, but i had no idea we even played ice hockey :)
23:13:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure you can find youtube videos about "Aufguss 09" [Jürgen von der Lippe]...
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continue to next day ⏵
