IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-05-09
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02:23:24 <Vornicus> Arg, one button I want so much: "load until another train that will load arrives"
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07:41:12 <planetmaker> he expects a working newgrf once he wakes up :-P
07:41:31 * andythenorth needs to learn how the bncr works :(
07:41:45 <planetmaker> just configure it to remember the last XY lines
07:41:56 <planetmaker> and make XY a sufficient large number
07:42:16 <planetmaker> or even larger and activate "clear upon connect"
07:42:34 <planetmaker> That I don't know ;-)
07:42:40 <planetmaker> In the bouncer settings on the server
07:43:07 * andythenorth has only one hand free. perhaps the baby should learn to type. that would help
07:43:27 <planetmaker> yeah, teach him? her?=
07:43:57 <nighthawk_c_m> Teach the baby to code while you do something else :-P
07:44:00 * andythenorth will be strictly using lower case until some future time
07:44:22 <planetmaker> small letters for small people :-P
07:45:51 <andythenorth> newgrf gui is a puzzle
07:46:01 <nighthawk_c_m> I should study myself why I always want a huge map, ending up with realizing that all towns are so far from each other that always a ICE/TGV line has its right to exist
07:46:20 <andythenorth> we're obsessing quite a lot over something that most people only use once every few days :o
07:47:31 <nighthawk_c_m> I should dissasemble some GRF's some time to get a basic understanding of the pcx setups - I don't really get the idea how the nfo finds the right sprites in the pcx
07:48:09 <andythenorth> it's very basic :)
07:48:21 <planetmaker> apropos newgrf GUI, andythenorth: why do you think that the one-list view is better? I don't follow your argument quite...
07:48:38 <andythenorth> i might be wrong in this case
07:49:11 <andythenorth> it's cleaner and follows a recognisable pattern, but might be the wrong tool for this problem
07:49:33 <andythenorth> planetmaker: got firefox?
07:49:37 <planetmaker> what 'recognizable' pattern?
07:49:51 <andythenorth> the content download window
07:49:51 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, I do. Why?
07:50:10 <planetmaker> that's something completely different. That's an unsorted list
07:50:11 <andythenorth> go to preferences->content->languages->choose
07:50:25 <planetmaker> why should I chose a language?
07:50:33 <andythenorth> just look at the gui :)
07:50:52 <andythenorth> it's closer to solving the problem you described in your forum post
07:51:21 <andythenorth> it's missing the info panel, but imagine this was the lhs of a two-panel layout
07:52:04 <andythenorth> the drop down would suck in ottd though
07:52:23 <andythenorth> makes me think those of you who like the 2-list version might have valid points
07:52:48 <andythenorth> not my taste though :P
07:53:48 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I don't think it's a good GUI for the task at hand in OpenTTD
07:53:57 * andythenorth wonders what's wrong with the current newgrf 'add' using a separate window?
07:54:04 <planetmaker> Languages make only sense to choose one. There's no point to sort them
07:54:15 <planetmaker> and no point to compare them
07:54:42 <andythenorth> yes there is - but nvm
07:54:42 <Terkhen> andythenorth: it is slow
07:54:48 <planetmaker> the current newgrf window offers not a good overview of what is selected and^
07:54:58 <andythenorth> planetmaker: why not?
07:55:23 <andythenorth> it gives a scrollable list of what is selected....
07:55:34 <planetmaker> but not of what is available at the same time
07:55:41 <planetmaker> the GUI is about making a choice of what to use
07:55:54 <planetmaker> in order to make that efficient you need both: what you have and what you can have
07:56:16 <planetmaker> concurrently is important
07:56:44 <planetmaker> say I want to select some station grfs.
07:56:50 <planetmaker> hm... what do I miss.
07:56:55 <planetmaker> click back and forth is very bad
07:57:07 <planetmaker> or when going through the list, composing in general a nice selection
07:57:18 <planetmaker> I need to know what I have when going through the list of (further) newgrf
07:57:34 <planetmaker> This selection. That's the most important point of the NewGRF _selection_ window
07:57:45 <planetmaker> And that very task is handled quite inefficiently in the current form
07:57:49 <planetmaker> or with any one-list view
07:58:02 <andythenorth> I think it's quite efficient on clicks. But maybe not on ease
07:58:19 <planetmaker> the clicks are as few on a two-list view
07:58:24 <andythenorth> we want ease, but speed != ease
07:58:25 <planetmaker> just double-click to add or remove
07:58:44 <planetmaker> which is easy :-)
07:58:49 <andythenorth> this isn't something you do 200 times an hour, so number of clicks less important than making it obvious what to do
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07:59:40 <planetmaker> Let's say: I prepared quite a number of games. And when it comes to ease of use, a two-list view is - at least for me personally - WAY preferrable when making this choice than a one-list view
08:00:15 <andythenorth> but two small lists, one below the other doesn't solve your problem.
08:00:24 <Ammler> wow, active sunday morning :-)
08:00:27 <andythenorth> it's just a fail. it's logical but wrong
08:00:50 <planetmaker> honestly, the one-list view is a bigger fail
08:00:52 <andythenorth> because you want to easily compare two lists yes?
08:01:00 <andythenorth> so hiding most of each list is dumb
08:01:02 <andythenorth> so we need something better than that. and....bigger
08:01:09 <planetmaker> I want a view of what I have and an easy choice of things to add
08:01:19 <andythenorth> and you might have quite a lot?
08:01:20 <planetmaker> re-sizing is quite easily done
08:01:37 <planetmaker> thing is that small screens have to be kept considered
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08:01:53 <andythenorth> that's fine, that can be handled
08:02:09 <planetmaker> it is handled as is
08:02:12 <andythenorth> so I typically have 15 grfs in my default setup. How many do you crazy coop people have?
08:02:20 <planetmaker> about that number, too
08:03:06 <planetmaker> one per vehicle type, a few stations, maybe a town, maybe some landscape
08:03:17 <planetmaker> maybe two RV or so.
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08:03:38 <andythenorth> so there's an active list and inactive list
08:03:56 * andythenorth thinking out loud
08:04:10 <andythenorth> in the current design there is an 'active' list. but no 'inactive' list
08:04:20 <andythenorth> just an 'available' list
08:04:29 * planetmaker doesn't see an inactive list. Just two lists being used.
08:04:59 <planetmaker> One for the newgrs selected. One for the (remaining) newgrfs being available
08:05:18 <planetmaker> which is what I'd do intuitively, if I'd have to select from something which I can lay out on the table in front of me
08:05:20 <andythenorth> so call that active / inactive. or selected / avaialble
08:05:53 <andythenorth> so do you feel the need to see 'selected', 'available' *and* 'info about this newgrf' all at one point?
08:06:15 <andythenorth> I can see a reason for that....
08:06:21 <planetmaker> Most often I only need the two lists without the detailed newgrf information
08:06:55 <planetmaker> that's why I proposed to make the detailed information possibly available in either an extra (child) window or an optional "window extension"
08:07:24 <andythenorth> I think that needs resolving before the rest of the list argument is resolved
08:07:37 <planetmaker> Though I see also some benefit in having it available. But if the child window doesn't close, that would be granted
08:08:39 <andythenorth> I can forsee a 'utility' panel on the rhs which would cover extended info, and possibly in future setting newgrf parameters via gui
08:08:46 <planetmaker> There's basically three principal options I see:
08:08:52 <planetmaker> lists beneath eachother
08:09:00 <planetmaker> lists horizontally next to each other
08:09:06 <planetmaker> lists in two separate windows
08:09:24 <planetmaker> which are concurrently open (e.g. the available list doesn't close as now)
08:09:57 <planetmaker> the detailed info could be in all cases part of that window or in an extra window, doesn't really matter
08:10:10 <planetmaker> I guess it's nicer to have that info available, though
08:10:18 <andythenorth> and there is some thought of possibly using this for other content
08:10:26 <planetmaker> Especially if come to think that there might become further info available in the future
08:13:56 <andythenorth> how many characters of a newgrf title do you need to see for it to be usable?
08:14:57 <andythenorth> I also have to think about opengfx :o
08:15:28 <planetmaker> what about opengfx?
08:15:29 <andythenorth> the opengfx pixel font is usefully similar to the default one :)
08:15:46 <planetmaker> default = opengfx :-P
08:16:05 <planetmaker> proprietary = old ;-)
08:16:42 <andythenorth> planetmaker: have a look at your newgrf list....how narrow could the list area be?
08:16:50 <andythenorth> before usability suffers...
08:17:03 <planetmaker> not much narrower than default
08:17:41 <planetmaker> well. Actually ...
08:18:04 <andythenorth> pixel dimensions?
08:19:46 <andythenorth> I think a two-list solution is better for your problem
08:20:15 <andythenorth> the two lists being side-by-side, for two reasons
08:20:36 <andythenorth> (a) side-by-side is how we compare things
08:20:51 <planetmaker> I do agree. That's why I made my version back than that way :-)
08:20:55 <andythenorth> (b) if the list is to be useful, we need to give it maximum possibly vertical height
08:21:19 <Zuu> I think a possible NewGRF settings GUI would be a separate window as with the AIs. Better use the rhs pannel for information. Like authors, sticking notes etc.
08:21:29 <planetmaker> but as opposed to what I wrote back then, the detailed view could be even next to it, too
08:22:13 <andythenorth> Zuu unless the game code makes it impossible, there's no reason the rhs panel can't change it's purpose depending what buttons are clicked....
08:23:14 <Zuu> Hmm, another option would be to put the lists side by side. and then have a smaller information panel below for basic information and then any extra information/settings would be new windows.
08:23:22 <planetmaker> I guess I could try a mockup of what might be useful
08:23:29 <planetmaker> But it won't be a small window anymore...
08:26:05 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm working on a mockup like that
08:26:09 <andythenorth> only much better :P
08:26:35 <Zuu> of course it will be better when it is made by andy?
08:27:01 <planetmaker> andythenorth: that image is not a mockup but was a working patch ;-)
08:27:22 <planetmaker> by me actually :-P
08:28:36 * andythenorth might be smoking crack
08:29:02 <andythenorth> I'm making something to solve your problem not mine. I still like one list :P
08:29:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you don't get 256 pixels
08:30:24 <planetmaker> Smaller and the list will be hardly usable as many newgrf titles are truncated.
08:30:35 <planetmaker> which makes selecting the proper version impossible
08:31:07 <andythenorth> so newgrf authors should use shorter titles. me included
08:31:15 <planetmaker> unless you want us to play with FIRS 0.1.0 and FISH 0.1.0 and so on
08:31:19 <andythenorth> something has to give :)
08:31:33 <planetmaker> well, those two would still fit
08:31:43 <planetmaker> but all those ECS would become indistinguishable
08:32:03 <planetmaker> AND: we cannot change back existing titles. And there's a lot which would get truncated with a width shorter than that
08:32:12 <planetmaker> of course it depends upon font, but still
08:33:19 <andythenorth> oh there's the fricking 'newgrf status' icon as well :P
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08:35:28 <andythenorth> funny how in some places openttd gui is abstemious with white spaces and in other places it makes free with it
08:36:56 <Alberth> it is extremely inconsistent :)
08:38:47 <Alberth> Someone should write a gui style guide :)
08:40:55 <andythenorth> planetmaker et al, how long are your preset names?
08:41:44 <andythenorth> brilliant, that fits into the gui very easily
08:42:00 <Alberth> it also saves 3 buttons :)
08:42:25 <Alberth> oh, and the preset load/save stuff
08:44:00 <Alberth> devs will be very happy :p
08:45:39 <andythenorth> and I have to allow for translations on buttons like 'add'? So I can't crop to min. size?
08:46:21 <Alberth> the widget system handles that automagically
08:46:49 <andythenorth> but if the gui is designed too precisely resp. sizes, there's a problem....?
08:47:04 <Alberth> ie you say 'minimal size' please, and depending on the actual texts, the widget system will compute the real sizes
08:47:10 * andythenorth is used to thinking web layouts where *everything* breaks all the time :|
08:47:44 <planetmaker> andythenorth, presets like "tropical_strech" or "Japanese set" should fit
08:48:01 <planetmaker> oh, hello Alberth :-)
08:48:19 <Alberth> someone left a hole in HTML to allow specifying sizes :(
08:49:02 <andythenorth> really, could presets be handled in a separate window?
08:49:13 <planetmaker> doesn't really make sense, does it?
08:49:23 <Alberth> after last evening discussion, I am starting to favor the 2 list solution
08:49:38 <andythenorth> Alberth: I am working on a layout for that in photoshop
08:49:39 <planetmaker> If I'm about to select newgrfs, it makes perfect sense to select a collection right there
08:49:41 <Alberth> it makes no sense for me to have presets elsewhere
08:50:35 <andythenorth> I think the mechanism for deleting presets is....weird but anyway....
08:51:57 <Alberth> at least you can delete them, unlike downloaded content :)
08:53:24 <planetmaker> Something which *would* be nice, but would also need a lot of work on the newgrf implementation side (v8 newgrf version):
08:54:04 <asilv> presets and download content don't work very well together, as presets don't automagically update to new versions downloaded from bananas. but i guess there is no reasonable way to solve that
08:54:09 <planetmaker> a newgrf selection in the style of the adv. settings with sub-sections for the different types. But I guess that's not something possible now
08:54:58 <planetmaker> Like newgrf->ships->fish->parameters sub menus could be possible
08:55:08 <planetmaker> Like newgrf->ships->fish->v1.0->parameters sub menus could be possible
08:55:20 <Ammler> the big issue is, that bananas has version info in the file path
08:55:24 <planetmaker> that way :-) so that newgrfs are versioned and parameter not as cryptic anymore
08:56:08 <planetmaker> anyway, that's beyond the newgrf GUI discussion now :-)
08:56:30 <Alberth> hmm, I suggested use of tree-like somewhere, but connot remember in what area any more.
08:56:53 <planetmaker> Alberth, it doesn't make sense as long as it cannot be supported on the newgrf side...
08:57:23 <planetmaker> or as long as the user cannot attach (local) attributes / do the sorting
08:57:40 <Zuu> or OpenTTD record the tags from BaNaNaS.
08:58:40 <Alberth> asilv: you don't always want to upgrade
08:59:35 <Alberth> Zuu: a record seperate from the grf itself is way too complex and fragile, the grf itself should have that info
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09:00:51 <Zuu> Alberth: I agree on that though, that having the info in the grf would be more robust.
09:01:39 <asilv> someone called Skiper seems to have added mb's newstations and newships grfs to bananas
09:03:26 <andythenorth> that's not going to end well :P
09:03:47 <planetmaker> well, maybe not him, but I recall some tt-ms bloke did that some time ago, too ;-)
09:03:49 <Zuu> hehe, add a md5sum blacklist for his grfs :-)
09:04:09 <andythenorth> is there an official 'max width' for a new newgrf gui?
09:04:17 <asilv> well mb's license actually would allow it, but bananas rules don't
09:06:30 <Ammler> I am sure, it is against MB's rules
09:06:44 <Ammler> as you can't upload the whole package
09:07:06 <Alberth> andythenorth: as small as possible (in both directions). Afaik there is no number, but that is also kind of pointless with changing texts and font sizes
09:07:42 <andythenorth> so....we have no agreed constraint, and we want to fit *everything* into one window
09:08:00 <Alberth> but bigger than 640x480 seems like a problem
09:08:11 <andythenorth> what about phones?
09:08:25 <Alberth> I doubt they have screens that big
09:08:48 <Zuu> I've never understood why you want to play OpenTTD on a phone, when playing it on a laptop with touchpad is troublesome enough.
09:09:26 <Alberth> having a pen to click at the screen is not better than a touch-pad?
09:09:42 <andythenorth> the thing is, isn't the reason we have the current gui is because it fits into the tiny screens that some players want?
09:09:48 <Zuu> A pen would be a lot better.
09:09:53 <andythenorth> or is it just that no-one got around to changing it yet?
09:10:24 <Zuu> That said, having a GUI that fits in 640x480 is probably not a bad thing, just don't cramp everything into 320x200 :-p
09:10:48 <andythenorth> 640x480 is perfect for the layout I'm trying
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09:10:59 <planetmaker> Zuu, I find playing with a touchpad actually quite natural...
09:11:07 * andythenorth plays with touchpad
09:11:09 * planetmaker actually always plays using the touchpad only
09:11:19 <Zuu> 640x480 in English would probably be even bigger in german translation though :-p
09:11:26 <Ammler> planetmaker: s/playing/watching/
09:11:35 <Alberth> current implementation wastes screen space because of the double grf-info display
09:11:44 <andythenorth> that's what I'm thinking
09:12:03 <Zuu> Maybe I'm to used to wacoms absolute adressing to be comfortable with a touchpad.
09:12:03 <andythenorth> in a mockup....would you rather see my preferred layout at 640x480, or 'proof' that it can be crammed a bit smaller?
09:12:44 <Ammler> Alberth: did you ever check the "old new" newgrf gui?
09:13:10 <Alberth> any layout will be fine, I cannot judge sizes until after implementation
09:13:35 <Ammler> it might be coded bad, what I don't have an idea about, but it is still best.
09:13:54 <Alberth> Ammler: yes I did, but trying to upgrade got incredible messy, so I started anew.
09:14:04 <Alberth> Ammler: you mean with the drag/drop?
09:14:40 <Ammler> drag&drop, switch name->file, nice big lists
09:15:59 <Terkhen> Alberth: trees were for the splitted refit window
09:16:49 <Alberth> I am just starting to consider new features, just getting at the current point already took me 3 attempts and several weeks
09:16:59 <Alberth> Terkhen: ah, yes. Thanks
09:18:53 <Ammler> also static grfs should be handle-able by gui
09:19:28 <Alberth> Ammler: I don't expect to be finished after putting my new gui into trunk.
09:20:40 <Alberth> so further suggestions are welcome in the thread I guess.
09:20:53 <Rubidium> andythenorth: there is a minimum maximum size: 640x480, i.e. the smallest scaled version of the window should fit when playing the game at 640x480.
09:21:18 <andythenorth> great, that's a nice constraint
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09:21:32 <andythenorth> now if stuff doesn't fit, I can kick it off the screen :P
09:21:39 <andythenorth> constraints == good
09:22:02 <Alberth> only constraints that you can realize are good
09:22:04 <Rubidium> see e.g. the network server list, which is less than 640x480 with its minimum size, but the default size is way bigger to make it more usable
09:23:06 <Ammler> is openttd able to detect, if a grf is able to load static before loading a game?
09:24:03 <Alberth> frosch123 said yes yesterday, but the check is expensive
09:24:42 <Alberth> so doing it with every grf is not possible
09:25:26 <Zuu> But it could be done when you try to make a NewGRF static?
09:26:11 <Ammler> Zuu: that is, I usually list every newgrf to the static section after restart, the list is cleaned with static grfs :-)
09:26:30 <Ammler> hmm, was a long time ago, actually
09:26:33 <Rubidium> maybe it is becoming time to start with DV's idea w.r.t. loading NewGRFs
09:26:58 <Rubidium> cache stuff, so we don't need to read them upon startup except when they're new
09:27:28 <Rubidium> e.g. name, description, palette etc.
09:27:45 <Rubidium> but you can then also cache the static data
09:29:34 <Ammler> also change the cfg/preset list to grfid or something version independent
09:30:27 <Rubidium> for that we better add (proper) versioning to NewGRFs too
09:30:51 <planetmaker> does that look like something which might make sense?
09:31:06 <Ammler> I thought about changing all newgrf file names to grfid.grf in the pre-bananas time
09:31:58 <planetmaker> that would unify selection and (possible) download of newgrfs.
09:32:22 <planetmaker> Left: what is selected for the current game, right: what is available (green dot) and could be available (empty checkbox)
09:32:44 <planetmaker> but the latter only, if "check online content" has been clicked. No automatic calling home
09:33:45 <Ammler> well, a kind of statistic for which grfs are "really" used would be cool :-)
09:34:23 <planetmaker> could be added in the left list by an appropriate colour bubble preceeding static newgrfs
09:34:37 <planetmaker> and an additional toggle in the view down which allows "set as static"
09:34:53 <planetmaker> s/view down/details view/
09:35:29 <Ammler> set as static could be handled like palette
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09:36:07 <Alberth> the problem of your idea is that you split downloading to two windows
09:36:19 <Alberth> I am not sure that is a good idea
09:37:09 <Ammler> he, what about one list for local and bananas grfs
09:37:14 <andythenorth> can md5 sums wrap?
09:37:15 <Alberth> also the current gui is already quite complicated without the download integrated
09:37:28 <Alberth> andythenorth: they do afaik
09:37:34 <andythenorth> why show them at all :|
09:37:34 <Ammler> and a simple toggle, if you like to view both and if you choose a grf which isn't local it downloads
09:38:40 <Ammler> also very confusing is that bananas uses other names than newgrf gui
09:39:20 <Alberth> (11:39:25 AM) Ammler: he, what about one list for local and bananas grfs <-- isn't the download gui doing that already?
09:39:46 <Ammler> Alberth: I meant in the list where you chose the grf to use
09:40:16 <planetmaker> Alberth, the download functionality could easily be left out of that window, if that's not desired.
09:40:22 <planetmaker> it wouldn't change the layout really
09:40:50 <Alberth> Ammler: bananas has more stuff than newgrfs
09:41:34 <planetmaker> Alberth, but then, if a unified extension selection (AI + NewGRF) is desired, it could make sense to just allow downloading from that window, too
09:42:00 <planetmaker> or just add the button "download online content" which will open that (existing) download dialogue
09:44:24 <Ammler> ah, I see, planetmaker's sreen is already what I meant
09:46:13 <Ammler> bananas should use the "manual" name only, when needed
09:46:13 <planetmaker> Alberth, yes. You may note that I added that button to my mockup, too ;-)
09:46:59 <planetmaker> at the bottom of the "all extensions" list
09:47:26 <Alberth> but you also have 3 vertical scrollbars, which is not possible atm :)
09:50:21 <planetmaker> I thought of adding the detailed information to the right of the two lists
09:50:31 <planetmaker> but that goes definitely beyond a width of 640 pixels
09:52:38 <andythenorth> Alberth: what's the limitation with 3 vertical scrollbars?
09:54:34 <Ammler> detail data needs a min width, not just fro md5sum
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09:55:05 <Ammler> that is very ugly in one of Alberth's guis
09:55:58 <Alberth> Window class has a vscroll, vscoll2, and hscroll Scrollbar data structure (2 vertical, 1 horizontal). Also there are WWT_SCROLLBAR, WWT_SCROLL2BAR, and WWT_HSCROLLBAR widgets, ie specific for each of the Scrollbar data structures.
09:56:00 <planetmaker> well, the details view somehow needs a scroll bar or more space than in my mock-up
09:56:37 <Alberth> we need a generalized scrollbar concept if you want to go beyond that limit
09:56:43 <planetmaker> andythenorth, it's simply not possible without ^
09:58:12 <andythenorth> well we can shortly admire my photoshop and say it's impossible :P
09:58:38 <Ammler> something else, is it possible to tell renum to ignore @@WARNING settings in nfo?
10:00:35 <planetmaker> Ammler, I don't think... that's what they're for after all
10:01:07 <Alberth> write a sed script to delete them first?
10:08:53 <Ammler> planetmaker: would be nice for checking if some settings become obsolete
10:10:35 <planetmaker> sure. But then they're easily deleted and tested against. Unless it is sprinkled all throughout the code.
10:10:51 <planetmaker> but in that case grep and / or sed indeed helps ;-)
10:11:58 <Alberth> as well as a consistent code style :p
10:12:18 <heffer> hmmm. i just was about to push the latest opengfx 0.2.4 into Fedora repositories as this weird bug occurs to me
10:12:44 <heffer> as soon as i move the openttd window the game hangs. but ONLY if i'm on the start screen
10:13:18 <andythenorth> planetmaker: ^ does that address your 'comparison' need?
10:13:28 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, it does
10:13:39 <heffer> oh okay. it hangs randomly ingame as well
10:13:41 <planetmaker> I'd like to propose one little change though
10:14:22 <planetmaker> The Preset should be next to the "Selected" and the preset buttons "save" and "delete" immediately beneath that
10:14:36 <planetmaker> as it basically gives the selected list its name
10:14:50 <planetmaker> (if it has one, otherwise it's "custom" as in your screen
10:15:07 <planetmaker> heffer, with other opengfx versions, too?
10:15:27 <planetmaker> I don't see how OpenGFX causes a hang... at least it didn't for me, nor did I hear such before
10:15:29 <heffer> no it seems unrelated to which graphics set is used
10:15:42 <heffer> i just noticed it while testing the new opengfx
10:16:03 <heffer> i unfortunately didn't have the time lately to get into excessive openttd gaming as i used to :D
10:16:11 <planetmaker> heffer, do you have a /data directory somewhere?
10:16:23 <heffer> yes. i was about to move that now
10:17:34 <heffer> in fact i didn't have one in my current profile
10:17:46 <heffer> i moved the openttd folder in my home dir anyway
10:17:56 <heffer> i'm recompiling openttd now
10:18:01 <Zuu> andythenorth: IIRC an OpenTTD limitation is that there can only be two vectical scrollbars per window.
10:18:27 <Zuu> Thoguh, maybe Alberth managed to get away with it.
10:19:19 <Zuu> Still, rising that limit to 3 is probably not that hard, just that a system that allow any numbers would be a more clean fix.
10:19:50 <andythenorth> yep, the 3 scrollbars is a late-breaking piece of news for me :P
10:20:01 <andythenorth> might prevent this layout
10:20:35 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you are right about the location of the preset name, but it presents various problems
10:21:09 <Zuu> I like the layout though and as said it might not be impossible to raise the limit.
10:21:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: your "add" button is in the wrong panel
10:21:22 <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm thinking that.
10:21:26 <andythenorth> the whole add / remove thing sucks
10:21:56 <andythenorth> we have drag and drop for vehicle groups
10:22:08 <Zuu> <-- removed the limit of max one edit box visible at the time in order to make his filter sign list patch, and this shouldn't be harder. :-p
10:22:14 <heffer> yaaay. seems to be a graphics driver issue in conjunction with compositing. we had lots of those in the late Fedora 13 development cycle
10:22:23 <heffer> so basically it's nothing i need to care about
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10:23:39 <Zuu> Eg. if the 3-pannel version come up as a really good solution, then it might be worth the time it takes to add the ability to have more than 2 scroll bars. Especially if you think it would be usefull in future. So I'd say don't wory to much about it right now.
10:24:10 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the detail information in your layout doesn't really need a scrolbar
10:24:37 <Zuu> Depends on if andy is going to put his readme there or not. :-)
10:24:50 <planetmaker> and I think one needs both: add/remove buttons and drag+drop
10:25:50 <planetmaker> it'd be nice, if the details view could have a button "show readme".
10:26:00 <planetmaker> That's an issue especially with all those bananas things people download
10:26:15 <planetmaker> they're most often not even aware that there's a readme being shipped with the stuff they downloaded
10:26:20 <planetmaker> actually the same goes with the license.
10:26:20 <Zuu> andy proposed something along that yesterday or the day before that or so.
10:26:51 <Alberth> (12:20:43 PM) Zuu: Thoguh, maybe Alberth managed to get away with it. <-- what did I do ?
10:26:51 <andythenorth> the panel on the right could be limited/truncated, with a 'more' button
10:27:10 <planetmaker> andythenorth, for now it doesn't need any.
10:27:22 <planetmaker> it's usually large enough. Unless it's too small :-P
10:27:35 <Zuu> Isn't it today that there is vscrollbar and vscrollbar2 variables for the two scrollbars?
10:28:18 <Zuu> I was thinking about if you had been adressing that in your gui system rework.
10:29:00 <andythenorth> planetmaker: why are the add / remove buttons needed?
10:29:34 <andythenorth> the music window doesn't have add/remove
10:29:41 <andythenorth> the vehicle groups neither
10:29:53 <Zuu> Isn't it the same problem as the only one edit box per window limitation, that we need a way to associate data storage with widgets.
10:30:01 <planetmaker> I agree that they're not strictly needed
10:30:01 <andythenorth> the add/remove looks just like a legacy decision made by whoever invented newgrf 0.x
10:30:06 <Alberth> Zuu: I didn't touch the scrollbars, only the widgets :)
10:30:14 <andythenorth> add/remove is GUI design 1984 style :P
10:30:31 <andythenorth> we're going through all our web apps killing those things thanks to jquery drag and drop
10:30:36 <planetmaker> andythenorth, then you need a trashbin in order to delete files ;-)
10:31:35 <andythenorth> imagine if the depot window was just two lists with 'add' and 'remove' buttons to configure a train consist
10:31:41 <Alberth> rm * is so much quicker
10:32:09 <planetmaker> sudo rm -rf / is even better :-P
10:32:40 <andythenorth> if we kill add/remove *and* up / down in favour of dnd we get an epic win
10:32:53 <Alberth> planetmaker: permission denied :p
10:32:56 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the up / down is useful
10:33:08 <planetmaker> way more than the add / remove
10:33:21 <andythenorth> ok, so in the depot window....you want < > arrows to set the position of a wagon in a consist?
10:33:24 <Zuu> Indeed, and without proper visual feedback, the drag and drop becomes tricky.
10:33:29 <Ammler> heffer: do you use KDE?
10:33:38 <andythenorth> these buttons are bollocks :)
10:33:43 <planetmaker> simply for the reasons that the drag to a certain position between two arbitrary but distinct newgrf is not quite easy due to the height scale of the lines
10:34:00 <planetmaker> andythenorth, depot is different. Wagons are bigger
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10:36:25 <planetmaker> further, andythenorth: a text button is quite clear what it does.
10:36:38 <planetmaker> A hidden function like drag or double click is not as intuitive.
10:36:45 <andythenorth> what does 'add' do?
10:36:58 <planetmaker> add that thing what is selected, eh?
10:37:05 <andythenorth> which thing, to where?
10:37:08 <planetmaker> counter-question: what does <nothing> do?
10:37:47 * andythenorth revisits the depot argument
10:37:54 <andythenorth> yep, depot argument still holds
10:38:06 <Alberth> andythenorth: what does 'buy' do in the buy vehicle gui?
10:38:12 <planetmaker> not quite, andythenorth :-)
10:38:58 <andythenorth> Does 'add' get me new content from Bananas?
10:39:06 <planetmaker> you know this game. You know the short way. But a new user is whom has to be targeted with GUI design, who needs to figure out things
10:39:09 <andythenorth> Does 'remove' delete the grf from my filesystem?
10:39:14 <planetmaker> Things need to be made easy for those
10:39:21 <andythenorth> yep, and less stuff == more easy
10:39:33 <andythenorth> remove everything possible, leave only what is needed
10:39:36 <planetmaker> not if you remove the essentials
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10:40:02 <planetmaker> or if you remove things which make proper placement (like putting a grf exactly between two others) arbitrarily difficult.
10:40:11 <Zuu> Visual clues are imho important to show newbies what the gui is intended to do.
10:40:28 <planetmaker> e.g. I never adjust grf oder by drag+drop. Simply because the height is too tiny to adjust my mouse properly
10:40:54 <Zuu> I find moving orders up/down a bit tricky
10:41:00 <planetmaker> I unfortunately don't find the GUI design page I'm looking for which describes these principles so nicely.
10:41:10 <planetmaker> Zuu, yes, good example. A pain
10:41:18 <andythenorth> you don't move newgrf order by drag and drop because you can't :p
10:41:30 <andythenorth> and orders are a pain because drag and drop implementation is broken
10:41:37 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I could with the old new newgrf gui
10:41:37 <peter1138> you never adjust grf order by drag+drop simply because it's not implemented
10:41:41 <planetmaker> and I hated it there
10:42:09 <planetmaker> the lines are just too tiny to use drag+drop adjustment of order
10:42:23 <Zuu> [12:33:09] <Zuu> Indeed, and without proper visual feedback, the drag and drop becomes tricky
10:42:51 <planetmaker> hm, yes, Zuu. With feedback it might become quite better
10:43:17 <planetmaker> that's the main cause, you're right, which makes it troublesome
10:43:35 <andythenorth> draggables have to look like draggables
10:43:39 <Alberth> (12:44:25 PM) planetmaker: the lines are just too tiny to use drag+drop adjustment of order <-- so you had to drop between two other grfs?
10:43:59 <andythenorth> orders dragging is completely fucked so please don't use that as an example
10:44:06 <planetmaker> Alberth, when adjusting newgrf order that's something one would like to do, yes
10:44:41 <andythenorth> normally you just split lines in half and drop above or below the split
10:44:44 <Alberth> I'd expect that dargging a grf on top of another one would mean I want the new one at that place, shifting the others down
10:44:53 <andythenorth> you shouldn't need to hit a tiny drag target of the divider, that's dumb
10:45:32 <planetmaker> Alberth, maybe yes. But it still would help BIG TIME, if the place it will get inserted is highlighted in some way
10:45:35 <Zuu> I would expect that there is a thick line drawn over the divider where it would be inserted.
10:45:40 <planetmaker> like a bold separation line or so
10:45:44 * andythenorth tries some itunes drag and drop (approx same size lines)....hmmm not as good as it should be
10:45:57 * andythenorth remains unconvinced by dnd
10:46:05 <andythenorth> despite arguing strongly about it :P
10:46:11 <planetmaker> like adding bookmarks to firefox
10:46:23 <andythenorth> also, dnd could be TMWFTLB, given the existing code....exists
10:47:22 <andythenorth> So the wording....
10:47:45 <andythenorth> If we have 'Inactive', 'Active' for the two lists....then we can have 'Activate' and 'Deactivate' for the buttons
10:47:51 <andythenorth> and suddenly it starts to make more sense
10:48:02 * andythenorth stops arguing and starts drawing
10:48:31 <planetmaker> add / remove or activate / de-activate is a detail. The latter might be better wording, agreed
10:49:23 <andythenorth> it matters to me :)
10:49:37 <andythenorth> stuff has to relate correctly, or it's just broken
10:51:06 * Zuu wants a legend in word that allows quick jumping to headlines in his 29-page documnet. - I guess one has to think vim and use search more to navigate.
10:51:07 * andythenorth argues about guis like programmers argue architecture decisions
10:51:47 * Zuu start thinking about a vba addon.
10:52:01 <andythenorth> frosch123: when the arguing is done (sorry!) :)
10:52:51 <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes yes. which is why I'm trying to solve the problem you describe, not the one that fits my personal taste :P
10:53:34 <Ammler> frosch123: could also be used for a lumbermill industry?
10:53:50 <andythenorth> Ammler: possibly.
10:54:05 <planetmaker> dealing with the "pointing accuracy" which you want to require (or not)
10:54:36 <planetmaker> this guy has quite a number of good articles :-)
10:54:46 <frosch123> Ammler: you cannot plant trees, and let the lumbermill cut them. but you can plant tree-looking industry tiles, let them grow, and let them notify the industry when the cut themself. that is they result in no production if the player cuts them for some railroad
10:54:58 <Alberth> planetmaker: he also has a book with them, I found out
10:55:30 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I have three of his books. we buy them for all of our developers :P
10:56:05 <planetmaker> then you agree to the article I linked ;-)
10:56:10 <andythenorth> Joel is practical, but this a better book on GUI design
10:56:17 <nighthawkcm> what do your developers develop?
10:56:22 <Ammler> frosch123: possible to check, if the tile you plant the industry tile has a tree?
10:56:23 <planetmaker> and that drag+drop without feedback for sorting default text lines in OpenTTD is... a pain
10:56:43 <andythenorth> yes, but only because the drag-and-drop implementation is broken
10:56:52 <andythenorth> and it's probably TMWFTLB to get right
10:56:57 <andythenorth> so we'll try the buttons
10:57:11 <Ammler> frosch123: then it is possible to simulate current LumberMill already, isn't?
10:57:14 <frosch123> landscape class of the landinfo of nearby tiles variable
10:57:52 <frosch123> oh, that way. yes, maybe. but i do not know how often farms try to plant fields
10:59:22 * Zuu want to kill VBA for not prefixing their types and not allowing eg. using lower case for vars and upper case for types.
10:59:23 <planetmaker> hm, Rubidium ? Someone probably uploaded stuff to bananas whom he's not the author of
11:00:09 <frosch123> hmm, maybe we should man grfs with grfid "mb"xx
11:00:26 * Alberth gives Zuu a big sharp axe
11:00:39 <planetmaker> frosch123, just add a list of md5sums which need exclusion
11:00:51 <Alberth> and auto-ban any user that tries adding them :p
11:00:51 <Zuu> Maybe it was not really all that good for my health to do some VBA coding..
11:01:45 * Alberth is not so sure that having an ill Zuu with a sharp axe is such a good idea :p
11:02:27 <andythenorth> Alberth: shall I assume 3 vertical scrollbars is a no-no?
11:02:56 <Alberth> unless you generalize the scrollbar code first, indeed it is
11:03:11 <peter1138> openttd can't have 3 vertical scrollbars... yet
11:03:21 <peter1138> i should finish off that patch...
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11:18:15 <andythenorth> there are some changes I'd like to make to that...but...
11:18:24 <andythenorth> what do you think?
11:19:46 <Ammler> why the details on the side and not below?
11:20:45 <Zuu> Actually I like it better at the side than below. You don't want to read that wide lines of text.
11:21:14 <planetmaker> looks fine to me, andythenorth
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11:21:34 <Ammler> but the grf authors didn't make the descriptions in that respect
11:22:03 <planetmaker> Ammler, they didn't make it for any width or size. So any is fine
11:22:20 <andythenorth> It's a question of priorities. planetmaker wants to compare two lists
11:22:32 <andythenorth> the correct way to compare two lists is side by side, with max possible height for lists
11:22:33 <Ammler> hmm, they made it looking fine for current width
11:22:39 <planetmaker> andythenorth, that's not an argument against putting the details view below it ;-)
11:22:48 <andythenorth> it wastes vertical height
11:23:21 <planetmaker> you still have 130 pixels ;-) But I like it better this way
11:23:24 <Ammler> Zuu: there aren't wide, because authors added newlines
11:23:36 <planetmaker> so I won't argue against three panels next to eachother
11:23:38 <andythenorth> Also, I have other plans for that side panel....
11:24:25 <Zuu> pm's proposal to not argue against the 3-panel edition?
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11:27:19 <andythenorth> the side panel could also be used for setting newgrf parameters by gui
11:27:45 <andythenorth> planetmaker: what was the link to your proposal
11:29:04 <planetmaker> my proposal is not as refined ;-)
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11:29:19 <Zuu> Ammler: so do I on that image, I was just joking with you. pm just said before that he would not argue against the 3-panel edition.
11:29:37 <Ammler> Zuu: that is why I did ;-)
11:29:42 <planetmaker> Zuu I can live with either.
11:29:52 <planetmaker> both need a 3rd scrollbar.
11:29:54 <Ammler> well, almost everything is better than current
11:30:20 <planetmaker> pro for mine: wider lists and wider details view. con: higher window
11:30:50 <planetmaker> pro for andy's: smaller window, more space for detail view (I think)
11:31:04 <planetmaker> both proposals will fail on some detail views without scrollbar for it
11:31:09 <andythenorth> planetmaker: yours has more pixel real estate for info
11:31:51 <planetmaker> yes, but the usable amount is not necessarily bigger
11:31:59 <andythenorth> it only has about 8 lines
11:32:02 <planetmaker> as the usable amount is some convolution of space and lines
11:32:14 <andythenorth> mine has about 25 lines
11:32:24 <andythenorth> so the horizontal layout forces a lot of waste
11:32:27 <Eddi|zuHause> newgrfs could use a more detailed description in their... description
11:32:33 <Zuu> I have to agree that both have their pros and cons, but are still good improvements.
11:32:59 <planetmaker> andythenorth, not all of those 25 are usable, though, either. Like the md5sum will always eat two or three.
11:33:04 <andythenorth> for the interaction, I have some issues with mine, but I think it's the best way to solve the described problem
11:33:11 <planetmaker> As will others with longer descriptions break lines, too
11:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause> the newgrf description should basically be the same as the description on bananas
11:33:42 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I kind of think that too.
11:33:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I prefer my solution as it allows easier to integrate both newgrf and AI selection in one window
11:34:11 <andythenorth> my design is currently only 355px high, it would permit significantly long lists
11:34:14 <planetmaker> which would due to the limited width of your lists not be reasonably feasable
11:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> description what the grf does, what parameters are available, link to forum topic, etc.
11:34:33 <planetmaker> yes, Eddi|zuHause we had that :-P
11:35:03 <andythenorth> why would you select AI in the same window?
11:35:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth, as both are "extensions"
11:35:43 <planetmaker> when designing a game it makes kinda sense to unify that
11:35:47 <planetmaker> if not - no problem
11:35:59 <planetmaker> more real estate for the names themselves
11:36:11 <planetmaker> or for a possible category tag or so
11:36:24 <planetmaker> all of which is discussed ;-)
11:39:54 * frosch123 is quite amused about the tags of the recently uploaded mb grfs :p
11:40:52 <andythenorth> do we want AI / newgrf all handled in one window? Or panes (like firefox add-ons)?
11:40:58 <frosch123> newstations: new, stations, ttdpatch; newships: new, ships, ttdpatch, blunck :p
11:41:00 <Ammler> Zuu: you see them in the openttd gui
11:41:26 <Zuu> andythenorth: You probably want to separet them on different tabs or something as they would need slightly different gui.
11:41:31 <Alberth> andythenorth: the idea is to do them in the same kind of window
11:41:51 <Zuu> And you do not really want to put a newgrf on an AI slot or the other way around. :-p
11:42:08 <planetmaker> Alberth, then a tab'ed view might make sense
11:42:22 <Ammler> frosch123: is at least the readme in the tar?
11:42:23 <Alberth> it makes no sense at all to me
11:42:40 <frosch123> did not look, but the description seems to be copied directly
11:42:41 <Alberth> AI and NewGRF are totally different things
11:42:51 <planetmaker> they're both extensions.
11:43:01 <planetmaker> both need parameter being set (kinda)
11:43:39 <planetmaker> they're only different from what they impact. But not in the way that they're add-ons (yes, the better word)
11:44:03 <andythenorth> Any other feedback on my last screenie? I think they yellow buttons are too vivid
11:44:15 <andythenorth> Preset drop down menu big enough?
11:44:30 <Alberth> always, it resizes automagically
11:44:37 <planetmaker> but I still like my wider view ;-)
11:44:45 <andythenorth> I don't dislike it
11:44:48 <planetmaker> not so many cut-off texts
11:44:59 <andythenorth> but imagine you're new to the game....
11:45:00 <frosch123> oh, TrueBrain is also here
11:45:01 <planetmaker> or, Alberth would it re-size in both views automatically?
11:45:24 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I might clean up your mockup later
11:45:24 <planetmaker> IIRC the lhs view of andythenorth's proposal (the current window) doesn't quite scale always
11:45:33 * frosch123 likes highlighting without giving reasons
11:45:42 <planetmaker> Alberth, active and inactive lists
11:45:47 <Zuu> IIRC you set proportions so eg each take 1/3 but it could be something else to.
11:46:27 <frosch123> TrueBrain: do you mind telling me, how to remove content from bananas violating the tos?
11:46:42 <frosch123> rb does not seem to be around
11:46:43 <Alberth> good morning TB, glad you are awake too :)
11:46:59 <TrueBrain> send me the entry which is in violation, and the reason :)
11:47:36 <frosch123> the two new newstations and newships, both not uploaded by owner
11:47:40 * andythenorth thinks not all space should always be filled by buttons
11:47:59 <planetmaker> hehe. Automatic button re-size so that there's no space left.
11:48:01 <frosch123> is there an easy way to blacklist uploading of grfs with certain grfid's or md5sums?
11:48:06 <planetmaker> Gives a nice crowded feeling ;-)
11:48:21 <Alberth> andythenorth: the empty space also has widgets, and can also resize
11:49:05 <Alberth> eg the centering of the 'quit' button in the intro screen is done in that way
11:50:22 <TrueBrain> frosch123 / Alberth: you are 100% sure Skiper is not the author? (and I ask you two as planetmaker is not a developer :p)
11:50:43 <frosch123> i am reasonably sure :)
11:51:09 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, hard to be sure, but would you think that mb uploads under a different name than his?
11:51:12 <frosch123> you may blame me, if the upload was my author :)
11:51:21 <TrueBrain> so nobody complained :p
11:52:06 <planetmaker> hehe. Or change the TOS. ;-)
11:52:10 <Alberth> we could pull the entry, and send mb a pm, telling that we did that
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11:52:40 <Alberth> and also telling him that we black-listed his grf (if we are doing that)
11:52:56 <Ammler> why not asking him to upload his stuff?
11:53:10 <Ammler> or if it might be ok, what skiper did
11:53:32 <Alberth> by bananas rules it is not afaik
11:53:42 <Ammler> well, skiper needs to be droped anyway
11:53:45 <frosch123> yeah, ask him we are tired of deleting his stuff, whether he wants to upload them officially?
11:53:52 <Ammler> else others might think, it is
11:54:07 <TrueBrain> we require the original author to upload
11:55:03 <Alberth> well, it does show people like his grfs :)
11:55:51 <Alberth> that may make him change his mind if you ask in the right way
11:57:11 <Alberth> don't look at me, I don't even know what grfs mb has made :p
11:57:20 <TrueBrain> grfs removed, mailed Skiper explaining why
11:58:25 <TrueBrain> but yes, BaNaNaS needs a blacklist system :p
11:59:02 <TrueBrain> no, voted very much against that
11:59:06 <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS has to be maintaince free
11:59:16 <TrueBrain> (ignoring the few TOS violations a year)
11:59:30 <Ammler> well, maintaining blacklist needs moderator too
11:59:40 <TrueBrain> just the ones from mb in fact
11:59:49 <TrueBrain> till he changes is mind :)
12:00:09 <Alberth> hardcode them in bananas :p
12:00:10 <frosch123> then just test the grfid for starting with "mb" :p
12:01:03 <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS is really much bigger than I ever expected it to be
12:01:16 <Zuu> Hmm or add a field in the grf spec for if it is allowed to be on bananas, given that it is considerable easy to read it from the phyton script.
12:01:18 <TrueBrain> that is the worst idea yet
12:01:51 <TrueBrain> Yexo: concratz on your 100,000 download :p
12:02:34 <Alberth> Zuu: so how long would it be before we get the same grfs with just that single bit different?
12:02:48 <TrueBrain> Alberth: are people that bad?! :(
12:03:16 <Ammler> well, you need to remove all current grfs as not set means not allowed :-)
12:03:19 <Alberth> I have given up hope on mankind in that respect
12:03:32 <frosch123> Ammler: affecting all md5sums :p
12:03:46 <TrueBrain> easier to make the bit say: not allowed :p
12:04:41 <Zuu> Having allowed as default makes much more sense.
12:04:42 <TrueBrain> Ammler: about your "fix" the TOS idea: mb is completely fully 100% in his right to not upload his GRFs. If he feels he should not do that, it is his right, his freedom. We should learn to respect that, how ever annoying it might be.
12:05:09 <Alberth> we can also add some encrypted data in the grf, and the author must prove he has the original data
12:05:27 <TrueBrain> lets PGP sign grfs :p
12:05:49 <Ammler> TrueBrain: I am quite sure, MB isn't against uploading to bananas, do you know more than me?
12:05:53 <frosch123> just disallow uploading crap older thand 3 years :p
12:06:09 <TrueBrain> frosch123: but how to detect that ..... :p
12:06:24 <TrueBrain> Ammler: he might not be against, but he didn't do it either. His freedom, his right
12:07:18 <Ammler> but it isn't fair to blame MB for what skiper did
12:07:25 <Zuu> andythenorth: At least for AIs I would want a seperate window for the settings or you would need to line break the setting names.
12:07:45 <TrueBrain> Ammler: I don't know about you, but I blame Skiper
12:07:47 <andythenorth> I think there is more going on than just this newgrf window
12:08:01 <andythenorth> why do we need 'options, advanced settings, 'difficulty settings'
12:08:16 <Alberth> nobody merged them until today
12:08:17 <andythenorth> all of this seems a bit upside down to me
12:08:41 <andythenorth> I don't mean they are merged :)
12:08:42 <Ammler> merge and make presets :-)
12:08:43 <Alberth> Ammler: I don't see how we blame mb
12:08:44 <andythenorth> I mean why so many?
12:08:50 <Zuu> I think we want to have some difficulty system but maybe have it separeted to where options etc. are located.
12:09:04 <Alberth> (02:10:32 PM) Alberth: nobody merged them until today <-- andythenorth
12:09:45 <TrueBrain> k, gone; have a good day all!
12:09:56 <andythenorth> Zuu: I don't see any problem for a separate settings window
12:10:34 <Zuu> Also there was a forum theread with joining setting window suggestions some time ago that eventually died when the poster realized nobody would pickup his ideas and code them for him.
12:10:56 <Alberth> even someone refused?
12:11:07 <andythenorth> So...you only have a grf active once, but multiple instances of an AI can be active....so the AI and newgrf lists are conceptually different....which is fine
12:11:16 <Zuu> andythenorth: Sure, no problem to have a button to open the setting window.
12:11:46 * andythenorth wonders what is the flow for the player thinking "I just want to start a new game"
12:12:00 <andythenorth> most of the suggestions by the forum guy were bloody awful
12:15:10 <andythenorth> are we trying to get a quick improvement of newgrf window....
12:15:28 <andythenorth> ...or shall we sort out the gui for new players who don't understand all the legacy stuff
12:15:51 <Zuu> a good and valid question
12:15:55 <andythenorth> optimising the newgrf window might be polishing a poo :)
12:16:19 <planetmaker> <frosch123> just disallow uploading crap older thand 3 years :p <--- touch `ls ~/.openttd/data/*.grf` ;-)
12:17:34 <andythenorth> Alberth: are you much interested in improving the whole 'start a game' GUI?
12:17:50 <planetmaker> Zuu, I once started to tackle the merge of options and settings...
12:17:56 <planetmaker> but it proved to be a snake pit
12:18:00 <andythenorth> I ask because we already have a lot of projects going on, there's no point incurring a lot of work-in-progress
12:18:19 <frosch123> andythenorth: ottd always improved in small steps
12:18:24 <andythenorth> but I now think that just tweaking newgrf gui is lipstick on a pig
12:18:41 <andythenorth> what is a fricking newgrf anyway?
12:18:51 <andythenorth> I was scared to install one for about 2 years, it looked complicated
12:19:00 <planetmaker> <andythenorth> So...you only have a grf active once, but multiple instances of an AI can be active....so the AI and newgrf lists are conceptually different....which is fine <-- I think that is thinking in programmer's terms. Not user concepts
12:20:16 <planetmaker> <andythenorth> ...or shall we sort out the gui for new players who don't understand all the legacy stuff <-- definitely a good suggestion
12:20:26 <andythenorth> suggestions are easy :P
12:21:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the AI point....I think adding AIs is completely different to moving stuff from one list to another. I don't know that they should use the same GUI pattern, that was my thinking
12:21:26 <andythenorth> was that a haiku
12:21:35 <planetmaker> I think we talking here all know that suggestions come easy, realization... is something else
12:22:15 <andythenorth> I keep looking at all the buttons and asking 'why?'. Why should I click newgrf settings? What does it mean? What is AI settings?
12:22:30 <andythenorth> Why should I check online content? What do I get?
12:22:39 <planetmaker> andythenorth, if it's about re-thinking "how to start a game", an AI is just as a NewGRF an extension to the default game. Both of which need configuring
12:23:11 <andythenorth> so to start a game....either (A) choose a scenario or (B) start a custom game
12:23:19 <planetmaker> Using any settings on either, newgrf or AI is and advanced thing. Way more advanced than just adding or removing them
12:23:32 <planetmaker> I'm talking about 'custom game'
12:23:42 <planetmaker> Things I have to do (currently) are:
12:23:55 <planetmaker> - check difficulty settings for number of competitors, loan, interests etc
12:24:02 <andythenorth> To start a custom game, the things that matter: map/landscape; add-ons, competitors, difficulty settings
12:24:03 <planetmaker> - checking newgrf settings for proper selection
12:24:14 <planetmaker> - checking AIs adding those which I need
12:24:27 <planetmaker> - checking adv. settings for the crucial ones which cannot be changed in the game
12:24:30 <Alberth> but just sticking to newgrfs, eg my brother had a bad experience with ECS because he didn't load a good set of trains/RVs that is more of a problem for new players than some buttons imho
12:24:34 <planetmaker> which is a LONG lists
12:24:52 <Zuu> I think it would make sense to collect various settings to a bigger new-game window. A problem though is that in-game you would probably want to access the old separate windows. A possible way to overcome this would be to add the concept of Frames to the GUI code. Eg. some of todays windows would become frames that are included in separate windows and combined in a big new-game window.
12:24:58 <planetmaker> Dependencies would be nice ;-)
12:25:10 <andythenorth> Zuu: that is a good point.
12:25:21 <andythenorth> but *do* you want to access the old separate windows?
12:25:26 <andythenorth> if there was a better alternative?
12:25:38 <planetmaker> better depends upon what you want to do
12:25:48 <Zuu> Another option would be to show that big new-game window and grey out things you can't do when the game has been started already.
12:25:57 <andythenorth> seems an obvious route
12:27:06 <andythenorth> so planetmaker you started looking at sensible reorganisation of 'Game Options' 'Advanced Settings' 'Difficulty' ?
12:27:16 <planetmaker> yes. But quite some time ago
12:27:35 <planetmaker> IMHO it'd make perfect sense to move the newgrf and AI selection to the new game window
12:27:50 <planetmaker> and some of the options (driving side, town names), too
12:28:07 <planetmaker> or maybe even to the adv. options
12:28:09 <andythenorth> ummm.....how many economy options does the game have? This worries me as I am coding industries
12:28:35 <Zuu> can NewGrfs read advanced options?
12:28:36 <andythenorth> So there is 'steady', 'fluctuating', 'smooth (on/off)'. How do they all interact?
12:28:50 <Ammler> another pm to peter :-)
12:28:57 <planetmaker> The real difficulty is: what are the essential options (frequently changed) and what are the real "advanced options" which usually are only selected once and not changed often
12:29:12 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
12:29:30 <andythenorth> environment vs. instance
12:29:35 <andythenorth> if that makes any sense
12:30:08 <planetmaker> no. But only because of a parse error / context error here (I don't get you)
12:30:33 <planetmaker> you are talking about what?
12:31:17 <andythenorth> settings...hmmm, hard to find the right explanation
12:31:29 <Ammler> you also need to differ between difficulty levels for setting and gameplay
12:31:35 <andythenorth> .some things change for 'this is my openttd' and some for 'this is my game starting in 1923 with NARS 2' or whatever
12:31:42 <planetmaker> there's one part of the settings which is quite obviously different: the local GUI settings
12:31:49 <andythenorth> it's probably obvious but I'm missing the right terminology :)
12:32:10 <planetmaker> then there's the settings which can be changed only upon game start
12:32:20 <planetmaker> and then there's some which can be changed always
12:32:26 <andythenorth> so the right analogy is 'application vs. document'
12:32:41 <planetmaker> But the latter two... well... not all are really equally important ;-)
12:33:14 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I don't think.
12:33:31 <planetmaker> Settings once chosen are saved - as default for the next time you configure things
12:33:44 <planetmaker> so all are global so to say
12:34:25 <planetmaker> but if you are already running a game, everything except the gui settings are local to that particular game (document), if one takes that analogy
12:34:33 <andythenorth> I think we understand each other, but lets take some examples
12:34:38 <planetmaker> and then changes are NOT saved to the global config
12:34:48 <andythenorth> Screenshot format?
12:35:00 <planetmaker> language: GUI setting
12:35:06 <planetmaker> engine pool: game setting
12:35:17 <planetmaker> signal distance: GUI setting
12:35:19 <andythenorth> Savegame format?
12:35:25 <planetmaker> max_trains: game setting
12:35:41 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, but those are not bothersome
12:36:03 <andythenorth> so basically, everything that is already in Advanced Settings->Interface looks correct
12:36:13 <planetmaker> strictly local settings which may differ from client to client in a MP game are not so many. They're already quite well separated in its own section in the settings
12:36:24 <andythenorth> And some things in Game Options belong somewhere like that
12:36:35 <andythenorth> e.g. graphics and sound sets?
12:36:44 <andythenorth> screen resolution?
12:36:55 <planetmaker> That's something which cannot be changed in a running game (base sets)
12:37:07 <planetmaker> screen resolution might work.
12:37:37 <andythenorth> everything in Advanced Settings can be changed during the game?
12:37:54 <Zuu> no, eg #op codes can not be changed in a runnig game.
12:38:09 <planetmaker> neither a number of other settings which would screw newgrfs
12:38:31 <planetmaker> most prominent one is engine pool
12:39:12 <andythenorth> so same for base graphics / sound? Just don't allow change in running game
12:39:25 <Zuu> So either it is made clear what is possible to change in games using grouping of settings or introducing an icon or not at all.
12:39:37 <andythenorth> Zuu: that's an optimisation :)
12:39:45 <planetmaker> Zuu, things are grayed out, if not possible. It works that way
12:39:51 <andythenorth> if the proper things are in the proper place, we can optimise later :)
12:40:13 <andythenorth> but things are in improper places at the moment. I've been playing the game for years, and I'm often baffled :o
12:40:40 <Zuu> sure, can be tweaked at the end. I was though more refering to informing players before they start the game what settings they can't change after the game has started.
12:40:46 <planetmaker> hm, can the adv. settings "eat" drop down menus?
12:41:21 <andythenorth> Lets kick holes in Difficulty Settings....
12:41:26 <andythenorth> Max no. competitors?
12:41:38 <planetmaker> Zuu, indeed it might be the best idea to just give them a visual indicator within the normal category scheme
12:41:56 <planetmaker> then at least the categories are not broken by the fact that something can / cannot be changed later in the running game
12:42:08 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the whole difficulty settings IMHO can go
12:42:14 <andythenorth> it's junk and wastes pixels
12:42:19 <andythenorth> nearly all of it is replicated somewhere else
12:42:30 <planetmaker> it could be integrated in the new game / adv. options dialogue without loss
12:42:48 <planetmaker> but nothing is replicated. It just needs moving
12:42:58 <Zuu> Agreed, though I would like to keep the posibility to globaly say I want an easy, medium or hard game without caring about details. (mostly for newbies)
12:42:59 <planetmaker> none of those things can be set elsewhere
12:43:12 <planetmaker> Zuu, yes. Just one button in the "new game" view
12:43:19 * andythenorth finds that some of the difficulty settings make no difference really
12:43:31 <planetmaker> drop down with "custom / easy / intermediate / difficult"
12:43:39 * planetmaker agrees with andythenorth
12:43:44 <andythenorth> with the default game in temperate, you either run coal first and win, or you don't. 'Difficulty' is irrelevant
12:44:08 <planetmaker> But that's another topic. Let's not mix that :-)
12:44:13 <Zuu> Difficulty affects the default settings for AIs and could possible do that for NewGRFs to if someone adds that.
12:44:27 <planetmaker> Adding / removing single settings to a particular difficulty level is something which can be discussed separately.
12:44:29 <andythenorth> Interest rate is also almost pointless
12:44:41 <Zuu> pm: agreed it can be a separate discussion.
12:44:54 <planetmaker> slope steepness could certainly be a difficulty setting ;-)
12:45:00 <andythenorth> yup....I just wanted to raise the idea of letting some of the original settings go to the bin
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12:45:14 <planetmaker> ok, back to sorting options and settings: difficulty could be boiled down to one switch
12:45:21 <andythenorth> are we going to document this anywhere?
12:45:28 <planetmaker> and maybe indicate (also) those settings which affect difficulty
12:45:41 <planetmaker> I'll make a copy of this, I guess :-)
12:46:10 <andythenorth> we might need pictures :o
12:46:11 <planetmaker> an indicator like for the "cannot be changed ingame" thing, too
12:46:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth, later :-) First the concept
12:46:35 <Zuu> we leave it for you andy to design a clear icon that everyone understands ;-)
12:46:45 <andythenorth> meh.....I was thinking 'concept art' :P
12:47:06 <andythenorth> so 'play heightmap' always confuses me
12:47:29 <andythenorth> I want to 'play game' and 'choose landscape options'
12:47:40 <andythenorth> heightmap in my head goes alongside the random generators
12:48:27 <planetmaker> What I like, though, is the quick-start option to select a climate and ctrl+click "new game" :-)
12:48:54 <andythenorth> that was well-hidden :o
12:49:03 <planetmaker> very much so, yes :-P
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12:49:16 <planetmaker> but then ctrl is the MAGIC key ;-)
12:49:26 <Zuu> Could be a quick start button on the main window when we get more space there with a separate window with just difficulty + climate selection.
12:49:55 <andythenorth> Zuu I think it can be handled differently
12:49:56 <planetmaker> Zuu, then it's not quick anymore, if I need to go through another window
12:50:17 <planetmaker> then I can just press newgame and accept the defaults and say "go"
12:50:54 * andythenorth is envisaging a tab-based window with a 'Go' button always present
12:51:05 <andythenorth> (not a wizard where you have to go through every screen in order)
12:51:20 <Zuu> And having the main settings at the first tab...
12:51:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth, sounds quite good for the settings of a new game
12:51:44 <andythenorth> adding / changing climates is really a no no for openttd?
12:51:49 <planetmaker> and the whole current adv. settings could go to a separate "adv. settings" one
12:52:07 <planetmaker> andythenorth, not entirely I'd think. But why?
12:52:28 <andythenorth> just thinking in pictures.....considering layouts / organisation
12:52:34 <planetmaker> You can always replace an existing one...
12:52:36 <andythenorth> killing toyland is a no no?
12:52:50 <planetmaker> Otherwise I'd have to kill you :-P
12:53:37 <andythenorth> whoever did and redid the advanced settings was smart
12:54:02 <quix> hi everyone! i'd like to include mysql support for saving highscores in my mod. where's the best way to add the needed link options? like "-L/usr/lib64/mysql -lmysqlclient -lz -lcrypt -lnsl -lm -L/usr/lib64 -lssl -lcrypto"
12:54:40 <andythenorth> I think a few Advanced Settings are really difficulty settings....slope steepness etc (as planetmaker said)
12:55:07 <andythenorth> Is max vehicles an advanced setting or difficulty setting do you think?
12:55:14 <Zuu> quix: If it is just for your personal use you could do that in the makefile and/or visual studio project files.
12:56:00 <planetmaker> the amount of vehicles doesn't quite affect difficulty. Except if you allow / disallow aircrafts
12:56:19 * andythenorth doesn't make scenarios much....are there any advanced settings that should be restricted in a scenario?
12:56:25 <andythenorth> or in a future goals framework?
12:56:27 <quix> Zuu: ok, i was looking at makefil.in... so there's no clean already prepared way for this?
12:56:50 <Zuu> I think so, but it was a half year since I looked in a makefile last.
12:57:08 <planetmaker> andythenorth, well... the amount of vehicles available makes certainly sense for a scenario
12:57:11 <Zuu> and it really depends on how you make the Makefile. All Makefiles are not the same.
12:57:18 <planetmaker> But it remains something which can be changed on a running game
12:58:09 * andythenorth wants to be sure to leave the way open for a future goals framework
12:58:14 <planetmaker> In a scenario setting (when loading one) it makes sense to honour all settings saved within that game.
12:58:25 <planetmaker> After all a scenario is just a savegame with another file extension
12:58:38 <quix> glx: i can just pass it to configure? okay, will check...
12:58:53 <planetmaker> So no need to make anything special there. Everything should be in the scenario file, if you choose to load it.
12:58:58 <andythenorth> planetmaker fine for current scenarios, but in a goals framework authors might want to restrict some options?
12:59:29 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, but every option (except GUI) is saved in a savegame / scenario
12:59:52 <Zuu> all options but the GUI options would imho be disabled in a goal scenario?
12:59:53 <planetmaker> so nothing to bother about. It will then in the future be also with the enhanced scenario scripts
13:00:09 <planetmaker> Zuu, well. Should it? I don't think
13:00:27 <andythenorth> interestingly, if goals become available, the default difficulty easy/medium/hard settings are just instances of a goal
13:00:28 <planetmaker> Any option change is recorded in the savegame. Why would you forbid the player to change options though?
13:01:24 <andythenorth> depends on how we think goals work....and how much personal taste a goal author gets to impose on players
13:01:29 <planetmaker> I think to that end no provision has to be taken. People who want to play a scenario play it with the given settings - or don't
13:01:56 <planetmaker> andythenorth, an author can impose everything. But a player can change (nearly) everything
13:02:07 <planetmaker> except those things which simply cannot once the map is created
13:02:09 <Zuu> Makes sense, or make a cheat to enable changing options.
13:02:16 <planetmaker> I think no difference required
13:02:17 <andythenorth> I think it would be handled same as cheat
13:02:36 <planetmaker> well... cheat... yes. what is a cheat? ;-)
13:02:42 <planetmaker> the magic bulldozer?
13:03:19 <andythenorth> It's a cheat if an author limits players to 50 vehicles, and they enable 500 :)
13:03:31 <Zuu> Cheats are things that are usefull for developers to test their code/ais/newgrfs etc.
13:03:38 <planetmaker> hm... game start dialogue could use a "starting loan / max loan / starting money" setting ;-)
13:04:25 <Zuu> Hmm, maybe that could be a first step, getting things from the dificulty window to the new game window?
13:04:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the principle difficulty with that is: there is no single difference between scenario and savegame.
13:04:34 <planetmaker> So it's hard to make it a difference
13:04:43 <andythenorth> I'm not too bothered right now
13:05:12 <Zuu> Though it will possible require moving hightmap and some care for scenario editor. But that would be needed anyways for the overall goals.
13:06:30 <andythenorth> some of the stuff in advanced settings would be baffling to most players (hmmm....what is the correct % for feeder leg profit anyway? I have no idea)
13:06:47 <andythenorth> some of it is stuff that is not strictly a difficulty setting, but comes up often
13:06:48 <planetmaker> yeah. The default
13:07:29 <andythenorth> I'm about to use the words map/world/landscape interchangeably :)
13:07:53 <andythenorth> Some things might be better belonging to the 'world' settings for a game, even though it could be argued they are advanced settings.
13:08:01 <andythenorth> a slavish consistency can be bad :)
13:08:22 <planetmaker> exactly. That's the snake pit I talked about in the very beginning ;-)
13:09:10 <andythenorth> A lot of the stuff currently in 'advanced settings->economy' would be quite appropriate for 'world' settings
13:09:39 * andythenorth wants to be systematic
13:12:19 <Zuu> hmm, looking at the World Generation window. Perhaps you could divide it into landscape options eg. things that affects the landscape generated or you would use a height map instead, and the settings for things that the world generator would plop onto the land.
13:12:37 <Zuu> Using tha division it would be easier to include the opotion to use a height map there.
13:13:03 <planetmaker> sounds reasonable.
13:13:21 <planetmaker> In any case it's getting too many options for a single window.
13:13:32 <planetmaker> So some kind of tab'ed view might indeed come in handy there
13:14:09 <andythenorth> yup, I'm making that assumption
13:14:18 * planetmaker should get accustomed with the current GUI code.
13:14:45 <planetmaker> which will be far easier than a year ago or so
13:14:58 <andythenorth> planetmaker: so reviewing advanced settings, (using current trunk)....
13:15:19 <andythenorth> *everything* under 'Interface' is fine where it is?
13:15:58 <andythenorth> (i.e. it's not a 'difficulty' type setting)
13:16:59 <planetmaker> the categories of the adv. settings in general make sense
13:17:04 <planetmaker> there's not much to bother with them
13:17:20 <andythenorth> I just want to be systematic about :)
13:17:46 <planetmaker> main thing is cheats / options / new game / difficulty things
13:18:06 <andythenorth> Well first we take the known knowns....then we deal with the known unkowns ;)
13:18:13 <andythenorth> 'Construction'....
13:18:34 <andythenorth> Some of the 'allow building....' are they really difficulty settings?
13:18:58 <Zuu> why isn't build on slope a difficulty setting?
13:19:22 <Zuu> Or building road stops on other companies road.
13:19:28 <andythenorth> Same for 'airports never expire'
13:19:29 <planetmaker> Zuu, only the traditional difficulty settings are difficulty settings.
13:19:36 <planetmaker> No non-TTD ones were added. IIRC
13:20:09 <Zuu> yep, for historical reasons none of the new ones has been added to difficulty.
13:20:22 <andythenorth> Yep, but that's what we're talking about changing, right...
13:21:23 <andythenorth> Ok. I've made a note about those points
13:21:38 <andythenorth> 'Routing' is all fine
13:21:42 <frosch123> how about trashing difficulty settings completely? instead add profiles for advanced settings?
13:22:03 <andythenorth> frosch123: could be the right conclusion....
13:22:13 <quix> alright, thanks for help! this made it work:
13:22:13 <quix> export CFLAGS='-I/usr/include/mysql'
13:22:13 <quix> export LDFLAGS='-L/usr/lib/mysql -lmysqlclient'
13:22:18 <andythenorth> Is 90' turns a difficulty setting, or a matter of taste?
13:23:17 <frosch123> andythenorth: when 90° turns are allowed, the game is harder as trains may go where they shall not go
13:23:23 <glx> quix: using --CFLAGS and --LDFLAGS without export should work too
13:23:47 <Sacro> frosch123: errm, tautology states a train can always go where it can go
13:23:55 <frosch123> so, no, most settings are no difficulty settings, but rather taste settings
13:24:10 <andythenorth> most are, but some might not be....
13:24:54 <andythenorth> I am thinking 'difficulty / world' settings I guess. And I am also looking for things that come up a lot as questions
13:24:55 <andythenorth> Autorenew? Comes up a lot in player questions....
13:24:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i agree with adding profiles to advanced settings
13:25:16 <andythenorth> Autorenew on/off seems like a world setting. The exact money / time seems like an advanced setting
13:25:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but also some settings should get a "difficulty modifier"
13:25:43 <Eddi|zuHause> like 50% for easy, 100% medium, 200% hard
13:25:43 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: but shall profiles affect all settings, or just a section of settings?
13:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that depends...
13:26:25 <frosch123> e.g. settings cartegories like: interface, world generation, company/client settings, game settings
13:27:00 * andythenorth thinks that settings profiles would overlap somehow with the idea of a goals framework
13:27:11 <andythenorth> (scripted scenarios)
13:27:13 <planetmaker> <frosch123> how about trashing difficulty settings completely? instead add profiles for advanced settings? <-- yes. That's what I think, too
13:27:25 <planetmaker> just adding a difficulty button in the new game menu
13:27:34 <planetmaker> and change the associated settings
13:27:41 <planetmaker> (or skip difficulties at all)
13:28:18 <andythenorth> Maintenance....any of that really a 'difficulty' setting
13:29:18 <planetmaker> andythenorth, overlapping with goals for settings is no issue
13:29:22 <frosch123> is disabling path signals a difficulty setting?
13:29:26 <planetmaker> besides goals don't exist ;-)
13:29:33 <planetmaker> uh, they can be disabled?
13:29:53 <frosch123> good point, maybe thay cannot :p
13:30:24 <frosch123> anyway, i cannot remember having ever played one of the difficulty profiles
13:33:25 <SmatZ> I remember I played with "Hard" and bankrupted soon
13:33:36 <SmatZ> then I found the power of long-distance air trainsport :-p
13:33:54 <planetmaker> Maybe indeed the easy/intermediate/hard settings could be converted to a settings profile. And then allow user-generated profiles in a 2nd step, too
13:34:17 <andythenorth> that's kind of what I had in mind
13:34:34 <planetmaker> sounds most reasonable.
13:34:39 <planetmaker> And most extensible
13:34:42 <SpComb> download configurations from Bananas!
13:34:43 <andythenorth> then a 'goal' is that + some scripted rules + an optional map / newgrf / AI list
13:34:56 <frosch123> yeah, but the profiles should not set all options to a certain value, but also allow "keep whatever previous value"
13:35:10 * andythenorth thinks it's important that goals are not tied to a specific scenario
13:35:14 <andythenorth> (if they ever exist)
13:35:19 <planetmaker> frosch123, a profile should just set those values which it defines
13:35:29 <frosch123> e.g. while disabling building on slope certainly makes the game harder, it is just annoying
13:36:01 <frosch123> but maybe, some want "hard settings" to be annoying :)
13:36:14 <andythenorth> but the sensible default is 'on'
13:36:22 <andythenorth> so perhaps it can stay in advanced settings
13:36:34 <planetmaker> frosch123, not every thing which affects difficulty would need to be changed ;-)
13:37:05 <andythenorth> Slope steepness for trains 'world' or 'advanced'?
13:37:13 <andythenorth> also weight multiplier
13:37:15 <planetmaker> hm, for a start the current difficulty stuff could just be integrated in the newgame window / adv. settings
13:37:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth, definitely advanced
13:37:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: that is why i prefer profiles, which can define values but do not have to. so if someone wants to post a "annoying hard" profile on the forums, he may enforce disabling building on slopes, ...
13:38:18 <frosch123> just.. i cannot imagine a gui where you can define profiles, and which settings they contain
13:39:23 <andythenorth> let's not worry about that
13:39:33 <andythenorth> I can't imagine a gui where you define advanced varaction 2 either
13:39:49 <andythenorth> but I can imagine a flat text file for profiles
13:40:08 <frosch123> yup, that is easy :)
13:40:24 <andythenorth> Railroad car speed limits....World / advanced?
13:40:39 <planetmaker> frosch123, and it's easy to dump all current settings to a file. Then one can delete stuff from a text file
13:40:53 <planetmaker> or - like the download window - make checkboxes which settings need exporting
13:41:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth, anything non-terrain is not world ;-)
13:41:25 <planetmaker> train settings definitely are not world settings
13:41:32 <planetmaker> (in my understanding)
13:41:35 <andythenorth> trains don't exist in the world?
13:41:46 <andythenorth> trains are platonic entities?
13:41:51 <planetmaker> then define what a "world" setting constitutes for you
13:42:05 <planetmaker> it's not what you defined above as "map" setting IMHO
13:42:18 <andythenorth> agreed....I'm sort of working it out as I go
13:42:20 <planetmaker> which is terrain, size, climate, ...
13:42:31 <planetmaker> and not an assortment of maybe-used settings
13:42:46 <andythenorth> but also how some things behave that a player might care about and not want to go looking in advanced settings for
13:42:52 <planetmaker> picking out single ones from the current adv. settings makes little sense
13:43:07 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes. But then that's everytime something else.
13:43:25 <planetmaker> is driving side world / adv setting / or ... ?
13:43:31 <andythenorth> probably a world setting
13:43:33 <andythenorth> it will make sense when I get to the end of the list :)
13:43:44 <planetmaker> I never touch it. I nearly forget about it. But I'm bothered if it's from my default
13:44:03 <andythenorth> and also this argument is part of working out the answer :)
13:44:06 <planetmaker> yeah. But you set it once and never need it again
13:44:14 <planetmaker> so that's the argument to hide it actually
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13:44:38 <andythenorth> I change it when I play a UK game, but that doesn't mean everyone will / should
13:44:42 <planetmaker> and a similar argument goes for many settings. Unfortunately
13:45:04 <andythenorth> which is why nearly everything in 'advanced settings' is correct
13:45:17 <andythenorth> I'm just looking for the ones that I might have to try and fit into a gui design for setting up a game
13:45:58 <Zuu> The upper part would change if you choose Load heightmap.
13:46:14 <andythenorth> Zuu: if you imagined something like that combined with tabs for 'newgrfs', 'competitors' etc
13:46:18 <andythenorth> that is what I have in mind
13:46:42 <Zuu> Me too. I was just trying to figure out what the first step would be in order to go from talk to action. :-)
13:47:23 <planetmaker> yes, me too, similar
13:47:51 <andythenorth> planetmaker I'm just going to keep using 'world' where I mean 'setup new game'. It stops me getting confused with 'setup openttd application settings'
13:47:54 <Zuu> haven't read the back log since I went afi (away from irc) while painting.
13:48:00 <andythenorth> So anything in Advanced->Stations that would belong in 'world'
13:48:16 <andythenorth> Airport noise limits?
13:48:23 <planetmaker> uhm... your wording is confusing.
13:49:20 <frosch123> [15:46] <Zuu> The upper part would change if you choose Load heightmap. <- you also need climate and date for heightmaps :p
13:50:24 <planetmaker> Would it make sense to get rid of the "map edges: manual / automatic"?
13:50:48 <Zuu> Yep, I'm thinking about greying out all that is not needed for heighmaps.
13:50:55 <planetmaker> I know that it makes a difference, but...
13:50:58 <planetmaker> Zuu, I meant generally
13:51:28 <frosch123> the advanced setting for disallowing terraforming at the border is mainly for compatiblity with older savegames
13:51:29 <andythenorth> Advanced Settings -> Economy....
13:51:36 <Zuu> I'm not satisified with "world objects", just couldn't come up with something better quickly.
13:51:58 <andythenorth> We can sort the naming out later.
13:52:09 <andythenorth> We can't name groups until we know what is in the groups :)
13:53:22 <andythenorth> So things that might no belong in advanced settings....
13:53:26 <andythenorth> town road layouts
13:53:47 <andythenorth> town growth speed
13:54:00 <andythenorth> manual industry construction method
13:54:08 <andythenorth> allow multiple similar industries per town
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13:54:16 <andythenorth> smooth economy on / off
13:54:20 <andythenorth> inflation on / off
13:56:32 <planetmaker> frosch123, exactly. But as such it could be handled in the background without user visibility
13:58:07 <planetmaker> hm, inflation on/off could be removed, if inflation 0% is accepted
14:02:03 <andythenorth> oh my, look at the time :o
14:02:07 <andythenorth> I still haven't coded fields
14:04:54 * andythenorth finishes looking at advanced settings
14:05:12 <andythenorth> so of the existing difficulty settings
14:06:06 <andythenorth> planetmaker, maybe it's time to sort out terms
14:06:57 <andythenorth> So player journey is 'start screen' -> 'new game'. Can we call the process 'game setup'?
14:09:49 * andythenorth whistles for a bit
14:12:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, 'game setup' sounds fine for that window which is opened by pressing the 'new game' button
14:13:34 <andythenorth> so the known knowns.....
14:13:46 <andythenorth> 'map' or 'landscape' or 'terrain'
14:13:50 <andythenorth> which do you prefer?
14:14:41 <planetmaker> hm. Depends a bit what it comprises
14:14:50 <planetmaker> if it's including #towns and industries: map.
14:15:02 <planetmaker> if only size, climate, shape: landscape
14:15:14 <andythenorth> may or not call include those things
14:15:24 <andythenorth> may or may not include towns and industries
14:15:36 <andythenorth> so the other knowns....
14:16:11 <andythenorth> and then 'competitors' or 'AI'
14:16:16 <andythenorth> which do you prefer?
14:16:40 <planetmaker> let's call the first thing with 'maps'
14:16:59 <planetmaker> then 'newgrfs'. 'AIs' and 'settings' for the advances settings as is
14:18:47 <andythenorth> are you thinking 'advanced settings' would be available in 'game setup'?
14:18:55 <andythenorth> or are you thinking of 'settings' as the 'other stuff'
14:19:46 <planetmaker> I think that the adv. settings could be one tab of the 'game setup'. yes
14:19:57 <planetmaker> it's something I always have to look at when generating a new map
14:20:16 <andythenorth> ok, well keep that thought
14:20:40 <andythenorth> so I think there is one other group of stuff, which could be something like
14:20:43 <planetmaker> but there's IMHO no need to distinguish other settings and adv. settings. All difficulty stuff and some of the options go there, too
14:20:52 <planetmaker> so then there's only one place to change all game relevant settings
14:21:09 <andythenorth> I think advanced settings is totally overwhelming for some items
14:21:09 <planetmaker> only base sets and language and possibly screen size / resolution remain in the options dialogue
14:21:23 <andythenorth> options needs to die :)
14:21:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes. But for a proper game config it's good
14:21:48 <andythenorth> ok. let's just agree what we definitely have
14:22:05 <andythenorth> so: map | newgrfs | AIs | settings
14:22:10 <planetmaker> or, we pick an arbitrary number of settings which fill one tab - call that 'settings' and add another 'adv. settings' with everything
14:22:20 <andythenorth> yes I think there may be something which we just call 'other' or 'settings'
14:22:37 <planetmaker> I think we can agree on those four tabs, yes
14:23:22 <andythenorth> ok....digression. I intend that the first screen is something as simple as this
14:23:32 <andythenorth> ignore the layout / graphic design
14:23:42 <andythenorth> the important thing is making it obvious what to do
14:24:24 * andythenorth thinks of two further things that could be removed from the splash....
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14:25:21 <andythenorth> why do I need to edit advanced settings outside the context of a game or game setup?
14:26:19 <planetmaker> not if it's moved to game setup
14:26:26 <andythenorth> but Check Online Content is actually needed
14:26:31 <andythenorth> for scenarios etc
14:26:35 <andythenorth> so I can't remove that :o
14:27:43 <andythenorth> slightly revised :)
14:27:43 <planetmaker> I'd keep the climates. And possibly make them a quick-start button for that climate
14:27:58 <yorick> andythenorth: that's ugly
14:28:06 <planetmaker> not the point, yorick ;-)
14:28:26 <andythenorth> so when I said 'ignore the layout / graphic design' my internet connection must have lapsed :P
14:28:43 <andythenorth> or I was speaking muppet or swedish chef or something
14:29:00 <yorick> no, but that was already out of my screen
14:29:44 <Zuu> I don't see why the climates should be in the splash. I only think it will be confusing.
14:29:59 <planetmaker> Zuu, the beloved quick start ;-)
14:30:28 <planetmaker> but then I guess I use that mostly when I test things
14:31:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth, what about adding a "Quickstart" button directly to the main menu.
14:31:36 <planetmaker> It will take a random climate, and some other things also randomized and "go".
14:31:52 <planetmaker> The quickstart thing is quite nice with e.g. FreeOrion
14:32:02 <planetmaker> just click and jump a game
14:32:12 <planetmaker> no nothing required
14:32:34 <planetmaker> then "new game" would be renamed to "configure new game" or similar
14:33:03 <yorick> I'd say "start random game" and "new game"
14:33:03 <planetmaker> And the buttons could all be one row or so
14:33:04 <Zuu> I don't think you need to rename "new game" just put the quick start at the top.
14:33:36 <planetmaker> uh... much to do we have now :-)
14:34:16 <Zuu> Yep. first document what has been agreed on and work out a plan on which steps to start with.
14:35:45 <Zuu> Perhaps see what things can be done independent and what things depend on other things. Eg. quick start can be changed already today.
14:36:17 <andythenorth> I think the climates might return....because Chris Sawyer intended them to be there :P
14:36:42 <Zuu> Maybe we need to keep them as they seem to be the most holy part of the game.
14:37:18 <andythenorth> planetmaker: so I've killed 'Game Options'
14:37:22 <andythenorth> and 'Advanced Settings'
14:37:28 <andythenorth> so how do I change the resolution?
14:38:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I think an 'options' dialogue to change the language must remain available from the main menu
14:39:17 <andythenorth> Tis a good point
14:39:35 <Zuu> So a minor options dialog from the main menu with language, resolution, screen size and maybe sound volume.
14:39:37 <planetmaker> and then the base sets used could (should?) remain there, too
14:39:58 <andythenorth> I think they are advanced options
14:40:04 <planetmaker> or are they game options?
14:40:27 <Zuu> depends on if "game" refer to the progarm or a game instance that you play.
14:40:41 <andythenorth> well they affect everything
14:40:50 <andythenorth> but increasingly players will just see opengfx
14:41:04 <planetmaker> that's why they could remain in the game options.
14:41:16 <andythenorth> if they download the game from some d/l service or preinstall....they'll never even know about the original graphics
14:41:34 <andythenorth> it puts something on the first screen that could go wrong?
14:41:43 <andythenorth> what happens if I have no windows graphics installed?
14:41:48 <planetmaker> half of the current bug reports are by people who use OpenGFX
14:42:05 <andythenorth> if the windows graphics are not available, does the menu show them?
14:42:12 <planetmaker> nothing shows then
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14:43:19 <andythenorth> and they affect the appearance of all windows....maybe the base graphics set is definitely in a core 'options' window
14:44:08 <andythenorth> I think sound is different. If I had no knowledge of legacy stuff, why would I ever change the sounds to the originals?
14:44:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth, not to the original. But maybe to "super duper new free yippieh sound set"
14:44:49 <andythenorth> but that's content....
14:44:50 <Eddi|zuHause> idea: one can ctrl+click on a setting to lock it from being changed with the preset (similar to transparency settings)
14:45:03 <planetmaker> nice idea, Eddi|zuHause :-)
14:45:20 <planetmaker> we already have the lock icon for that
14:45:27 <Zuu> I think its a good to keep the base sets togeather and not scatter them.
14:45:41 <andythenorth> the sounds / music seem to be analagous to newgrfs, AIs etc
14:45:56 <andythenorth> without base graphics the game is broken
14:46:05 <Zuu> I don't see how selection of base sonud differ from base graphics.
14:46:07 <planetmaker> andythenorth, not quite. They're not a per-game thing
14:46:19 <planetmaker> a game does not configure them
14:46:24 <Zuu> if you have no graphics, then OpenTTD don't start.
14:46:29 <planetmaker> it configures settings, AI and newgrf, though
14:46:33 <Eddi|zuHause> base sets/language/resolution looks like a good thing to keep separate
14:47:08 <planetmaker> town names and driving side need to be removed from options, though
14:47:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but the town names should be separated from that
14:47:15 <andythenorth> but nor does a game configure screen shot format, save game name format, mini-map colour, window snap radius
14:47:31 * andythenorth thinks sounds are just 'content' to most players
14:47:36 * andythenorth is often wrong though
14:48:00 <planetmaker> andythenorth, sounds are content... but it's possible to define sound newgrfs. So...
14:48:03 <Zuu> sure but these are the _base_ sounds and therefor they have more in commmon with the _base_ graphics.
14:48:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: imho base sets should be a "set up once and forget about it" job
14:48:29 <andythenorth> In which case they go in Advanced Settings
14:48:31 <Eddi|zuHause> whereas newgrfs etc. are a "change for every game" thing
14:48:41 <andythenorth> Advanced Settings -> Sound
14:49:02 <planetmaker> nope :-) base = required for OpenTTD to run. Adv. settings are not required
14:49:14 <andythenorth> town names look probable for 'map' to me
14:49:16 <planetmaker> It's only so that "no sound" ships with openttd
14:49:47 * Ammler would like to be able to change base sets
14:50:02 <planetmaker> but indeed it's a question, whether not some of the current adv. settings->UI should be moved to another place. Jointly with the remaining current options.
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14:50:23 <Darkdjinn> is there any Staff or translation manager online ?
14:50:31 <andythenorth> planetmaker: Agreed
14:50:52 <Zuu> Darkdjinn: Probably, but it is easiest if you just ask your question I think.
14:51:08 <planetmaker> so... splitting adv. settings: (local) GUI stuff and game-specific stuff.
14:51:20 <Darkdjinn> the question i mailed but i can ask as well. its if the team can add Thai language to the game ?
14:51:26 <planetmaker> then the Options view would become a tab'ed view similar to the game setup view
14:51:55 <andythenorth> planetmaker: GUI | Gameplay
14:52:14 <planetmaker> yes. gameplay accessible via the game setup dialogue
14:52:19 <Darkdjinn> and where the fots can be downloaded for other asian languages that i wish to ask to
14:52:20 <planetmaker> and gui via the game options from main menu
14:52:25 <Zuu> Darkdjinn: I see that Thai is already at translator.openttd.org
14:52:29 <andythenorth> and what about in game?
14:52:30 <Terkhen> Darkdjinn: Thai appears in the language list already
14:52:57 <andythenorth> planetmaker: what if there is one 'advanced settings' window with two tabs?
14:52:58 <Zuu> It is only 36.3% complete though, so if you want to help translating that would be very helpful.
14:53:19 <Darkdjinn> my wife will assist with that in a few days i think so i can maybe help with Thai yes
14:53:27 * andythenorth goes to visit the OS X Preferences.app
14:53:39 <Darkdjinn> but where do i get the fonts for all laguages in use in game ?
14:53:41 <planetmaker> ingame the same thing as the 'game setup' - but the first page might be completely grayed out as it cannot be changed
14:53:57 <andythenorth> planetmaker: screen resolution *can* be changed
14:54:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, but that's not a 'game setup' but an 'option'
14:54:53 <planetmaker> they remain accessible via the 'options menu' ingame - right as now
14:55:02 <planetmaker> no need to prepare anything special there
14:55:06 <Zuu> Darkdjinn: you probably have a font in your system already for asian languages.
14:55:08 <andythenorth> can we represent this as a tree in ascii text?
14:55:22 <Zuu> In openttd.cfg you will have to specify a font to use.
14:56:23 <Darkdjinn> anyone who knows where i can download the fonts for OTT to use symbol or laguages that is not aplhpabetic as ariabian or asian languages ?
14:57:02 <glx> there's no such thing, you just need to use the fonts available on your computer
14:57:16 <Zuu> Darkdjinn: What operating system do you use?
14:57:39 <Zuu> Hmm, and why do we not have a wiki article about this? or why am I not finding it by searching for "font"?
14:59:43 <Zuu> IIRC it is the name of the font you set. So eg. open word and find a font that works for you and put that name in openttd.cfg.
15:00:05 <glx> or just let openttd autodetect the right font
15:01:38 <Darkdjinn> where are the fonts located in OS under winxp ?
15:02:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker: bah you beat me :P
15:02:27 <andythenorth> I had to do chores :|
15:02:28 <Darkdjinn> how do i add the locate in OTT cfg to make it detect there ?
15:03:35 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm not sure how 'settings' works in your model
15:03:43 <andythenorth> how does it relate to existing 'advanced settings'?
15:04:31 <andythenorth> also screenshot format and autosave frequency can go into advanced settings
15:04:54 <andythenorth> meh silly auto-complete
15:07:19 <glx> Darkdjinn: you don't need to set anything in openttd.cfg, by default it will try to find a font able to display the chosen language
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15:11:51 <Darkdjinn> in which folder shall the fonts be in or ?
15:13:28 <glx> fonts are where windows put them
15:13:46 <glx> openttd just asks windows
15:14:48 <planetmaker> andythenorth: for a starter I'd add the current adv. settings there
15:14:51 <planetmaker> as a 2nd step it could be split in two: settings and adv. settings
15:15:03 <planetmaker> where 'settings' is a selection of 'important' settings
15:15:13 <planetmaker> But I'm not sure whether that's sensible
15:15:48 <planetmaker> I'd make it a bit like the current adv. settings dialogue, just a bit re-worked
15:15:52 <andythenorth> I was thinking that adv. settings just lives in its own window as now
15:15:53 <planetmaker> possibly with the option for pre-sets
15:16:03 <andythenorth> but I guess it could change
15:16:40 <planetmaker> it could. But that's - opposed to the general change discussed - actually only a detail ;-)
15:16:46 <andythenorth> if players think that to setup a game they go through each tab, then adv. settings hits them with a lot of stuff
15:16:58 <andythenorth> so it might want to be hidden behind a click somewhere
15:17:07 <andythenorth> that's why they are 'advanced settings' :)
15:17:31 <planetmaker> well... but either non (then the tab is just 'advanced settings') or it's too many
15:17:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19772 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3818]: the break-on-log-message feature could trigger an assert (Zuu)
15:17:39 <andythenorth> I think there might be a 'general' tab as opposed to 'settings'
15:17:54 <planetmaker> general is the first tab ;-)
15:18:18 <andythenorth> there's a bunch of stuff that are more general than 'map'
15:18:24 <andythenorth> like economy settings, breakdowns etc
15:18:49 * andythenorth looks at existing 'difficulty' screen
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15:19:02 <planetmaker> yes. But if you try to sort it out - you either end up with a separate tab for each - or you just re-use the current adv. settings as is
15:19:58 <andythenorth> nah I misled you there, I'm thinking *most* of adv. settings is fine. It's the stuff in 'difficulty' that needs looking at...
15:20:34 <planetmaker> well. I'd skip that except a button in the settings? map? tab
15:20:43 <planetmaker> and just change the affected things wherever they are
15:20:51 <planetmaker> most should be in the adv. settings anyway
15:20:55 <andythenorth> So 'general' things: loan; interest rate; running costs; breakdowns; subsidy multiplier; economy; disasters
15:21:10 <andythenorth> train reversing *definitely* an advanced thing
15:21:13 <planetmaker> hm. ok. Let's make that the 'settings'
15:21:17 <andythenorth> City council attitude?
15:21:25 <planetmaker> and the current adv. settings keep their name
15:21:44 <andythenorth> Zuu: how do AIs interact with 'construction speed of competitors' ?
15:22:27 <planetmaker> so: map | newgrf | AI | settings | adv. settings
15:23:00 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'm not quite sure though whether that's sensible. But for a starter that might work with settings and adv. settings
15:23:33 <planetmaker> then the 'settings preset' (aka difficulty) might go to settings, too
15:24:51 <andythenorth> adv. settings is a button on the 'settings' tab?
15:24:59 <Yexo> <andythenorth> Zuu: how do AIs interact with 'construction speed of competitors' ? <- on "very fast" AIs get a tick every game tick, on "fast" they get a tick every second game tick, on "normal" they get a tick every 4th game tick, etc.
15:25:11 <planetmaker> andythenorth: might also work for a starter
15:25:14 <andythenorth> Zuu so the setting still matters?
15:25:34 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the adv. settings would remain available from the menu in game as now - for convenience
15:26:06 <planetmaker> andythenorth: but it doesn't quite make sense to distinguish the current options / difficulty / adv. settings things
15:26:19 <planetmaker> they're all the same. Just different names attached
15:26:32 <andythenorth> I know, but we've found we can't consolidate them easily so far
15:26:43 <planetmaker> transitionally that's the way to go, yes
15:26:50 <planetmaker> but only transitionally
15:27:15 * planetmaker created a 'gui' repo on the local HDD
15:27:32 <andythenorth> I still think some of the 'options' proposed above are advanced settings or settings.
15:27:35 <andythenorth> like 'drive side'
15:28:33 <planetmaker> and we already agreed on that, not? ;-)
15:28:35 <andythenorth> measuring units?
15:28:43 <planetmaker> not sure. It's a GUI thing
15:28:52 <planetmaker> so it belongs there, too, I guess
15:29:07 <planetmaker> But it's part of the (current) adv. settings which actually should go to options :-)
15:29:12 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm just trying to think if there's a way to eliminate a separate 'options' dialog
15:29:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the units could be advanced settings
15:29:21 <planetmaker> andythenorth: no, there isn't
15:29:29 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: it's like language...
15:29:38 <andythenorth> planetmaker you know how the mac can have a monitor resolution menubar widget?
15:29:45 <andythenorth> things like that...
15:30:03 <planetmaker> andythenorth: there are two different things: user interface --> options
15:30:11 <planetmaker> game affect --> adv. settings
15:30:11 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe, but in a NARS or UKRS game, you might want to use imperial, but with a DBSet game, you might want to use metric?
15:30:29 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: maybe :-)
15:30:36 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: some current advanced settings only affect user interface
15:30:42 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's how I feel about it....but lets stick to trying to kill the options dialog
15:30:46 <Eddi|zuHause> like all in the "interface" section
15:30:49 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I know. It was an argument to move those to options
15:31:14 <planetmaker> as we plan to move adv. settings into a tab of the 'new game' dialogue. Where those make absolutely no sense
15:31:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think that is a goal that should be aimed at
15:31:45 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'm with Eddi|zuHause
15:31:56 <planetmaker> you cannot remove the access to the option "choose language"
15:32:06 <planetmaker> I thought we were already past that?
15:32:13 <planetmaker> discuss that again?
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15:32:49 <andythenorth> well we agree that resolution, base sets and language don't belong in adv. settings?
15:33:04 <planetmaker> yes. So they're options
15:33:13 <Darkdjinn> where on the website can i see which languages is not 100 % translated ?
15:33:14 <andythenorth> why did we agree they aren't adv. settings?
15:33:30 <planetmaker> And things like "savegame date format" is one of those, too. As it's nothing which deals with 'new game settings'
15:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Darkdjinn: under translator.openttd.org
15:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause> as the topic clearly says ;)
15:33:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth: anything which does not affect the game is by this definition part of options
15:34:08 <planetmaker> which is much of the current interface section of the adv. settings
15:34:16 <andythenorth> ok that might be the leap we need to make
15:34:24 <andythenorth> so I hadn't quite made that leap yet
15:34:24 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you mean "game mechanics"
15:34:36 <Eddi|zuHause> of course also interface settings affect the game...
15:34:49 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes. But you just told me that "measurement units" should be part of that :-P
15:35:18 <Darkdjinn> is there a list of those 2161 words that need to be translated ?
15:35:59 <planetmaker> if you log into the webtranslator: yes
15:36:06 <Darkdjinn> i will make account first
15:36:09 <planetmaker> or download the source
15:36:17 <planetmaker> web translator is recommended, though
15:37:06 * andythenorth wonders if we can get to just one 'options' dialog and one 'game settings' dialog
15:37:13 <andythenorth> adv. settings being split between the two
15:37:20 <andythenorth> or maybe that's bad
15:38:34 <andythenorth> planetmaker: is this roughly what you're thinking....
15:38:47 <Darkdjinn> there now that is complete
15:39:19 <andythenorth> combine options into adv. settings (adding tree nodes for 'base sets', 'language' etc.)
15:39:35 <andythenorth> they're not advanced
15:40:32 <andythenorth> If adv. settings was 'Preferences' that would do it
15:41:25 <planetmaker> andythenorth: not quite what I'm thinking
15:41:58 <planetmaker> I'm thinking of keeping two: the 'game settings' and the 'game options'
15:42:18 <andythenorth> but no third dialog...?
15:42:44 <planetmaker> there's some settings in the game creation
15:42:47 <andythenorth> don't worry about it. I don't want three....it's just a question of agreeing some names I think
15:42:49 <planetmaker> and there's the options from the main menu
15:43:07 <andythenorth> and adv. settings?
15:43:34 <planetmaker> that's sub-summed under settings. Those which affect the game behaviour. Those which are saved with a game
15:43:58 <planetmaker> basically everything saved in a .sav file needs to be in the (adv.) settings.
15:44:02 <andythenorth> that distinction makes sense
15:44:12 <andythenorth> from an implementation perspective
15:44:13 <Rubidium> planetmaker: where? What?
15:44:26 <planetmaker> Whether they're now in a tab directly or accessible via a button there
15:44:37 <Rubidium> oh, think TB already handled it
15:45:07 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the implementation side has not to be changed. We only talk GUI
15:45:16 <planetmaker> the backend may (and should!) stay as it is.
15:45:54 <andythenorth> ok lets test....
15:46:03 <andythenorth> so I want to change screen resolution...
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15:50:17 <Darkdjinn> funny thai does not work in IRC :)
15:50:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth: as usual you use the options dialogue
15:51:13 <glx> Darkdjinn: it does if your client is set properly
15:51:22 <andythenorth> planetmaker so I'm in game....I want to change the function of the scroll wheel....
15:52:06 <frosch123> หวัดดี Darkdjinn :)
15:52:27 <frosch123> (mind i just got that from some random dictionary)
15:52:42 <glx> planetmaker: fail it's not thai
15:52:47 <planetmaker> mind that I don't know what I wrote - and that's arabic ;-)
15:53:05 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm in game....I want to change window snap radius?
15:53:45 <planetmaker> there's just two dialogues: game settings and options
15:54:00 <planetmaker> game setting creates the game (and remains available ingame with grayed out stuff)
15:54:08 <planetmaker> and options - which will also remain available ingame
15:54:25 <andythenorth> so quite a lot of current adv. settings gets moved to 'options'?
15:54:50 <planetmaker> but the options is directly availabe from openttd main menu while the game settings are what you get by clicking 'new game'
15:54:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes. all GUI stuff
15:55:23 <andythenorth> I think we're clear on that
15:55:27 <planetmaker> everything which is really local to _you_ - and not to your game ;-)
15:55:47 <andythenorth> 'options' is the equivalent of 'OpenTTD preferences'
15:56:41 <planetmaker> Could even be called that way then
15:56:50 <andythenorth> it would make sense to mac users :P
15:56:54 <andythenorth> if there are any left
15:58:06 <frosch123> Darkdjinn: you have to set you client to utf-8. then you can enter text or copy&paste as you wish
15:59:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19773 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Add: [NoAI] AIIndustry::GetIndustryID(TileIndex)
16:02:48 <Darkdjinn> ????????????????????????????????
16:03:23 <Darkdjinn> i think IRC is not supporting real thai font only some
16:03:33 <andythenorth> planetmaker: afk
16:03:36 <andythenorth> working on something though
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16:14:44 <Zuu> Oh Yexo has entered a NoAI mode :-)
16:16:14 <Yexo> AITile.IsIndustryTile <- you can implement that now as AIIndustry::IsValidIndustry(AIIndustry.GetIndustryID(tile))
16:17:36 <Zuu> Yep, and you can store the id and llocation of an industry to detect if it has been closed down or not.
16:18:14 <Yexo> it'd be better to rely on the events for that
16:18:59 <Zuu> Probably, unless they somehow get lost.
16:19:41 <Zuu> But by default, the events are better, then if a connection do not make profit, you could manualy check if the intustry remains.
16:22:23 <Zuu> I was thinking about (yesterday) if it would be possible that the API could give some more information regarding if other players use an industry or not. There is the function to get number of adjacent stations, but it would be quite expansive to filter out your own stations from that number.
16:23:03 <Zuu> The purpose of this information would be to implement a setting to make the AI not compete about industries used by other players.
16:23:31 <Yexo> basically that would be FS#2776 (more information about other companies) combined with a function to get all accepted cargoes for a station
16:24:02 <Yexo> if you don't want to compete at all you could check % transported > 0
16:24:35 <Zuu> That works with a month delay or so.
16:25:11 <Zuu> I will probably do that for now.
16:26:51 <planetmaker> I have to agree, that would be feasable and probably even desirable.
16:27:17 <planetmaker> But your screenshot shows: there's yet another place of things which could go into one of 'gameplay settings' or 'openttd preferences' ;-)
16:27:24 <andythenorth> makes me think that there is something weird going on with how transparency is arranged in that menu....but that's for another day
16:27:26 <planetmaker> (or transparancy options)
16:28:15 <Zuu> CluelessPLus use "(production - transported) * income per unit" to evaluate new connections, so even without the transported > 0 condition it will not find sources with high ratio transported interesting.
16:28:21 <Yexo> andythenorth: how about removing all *displayed and transparant* from that dropdown and move them to the transparency options window?
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16:28:30 <andythenorth> Yexo: I considered it
16:28:57 <andythenorth> me and planetmaker have started a project of rearranging settings....but I think transparency can be safely left out of that for today :)
16:29:21 <Yexo> Zuu: a coal mine that produces 2000 items per month but has 50% transported is less interesting then a coal mine that produces 1000 items per month where nothing is transported
16:30:13 <Zuu> Hmm, you could fix that by multiplying "transported" by a factor > 1.
16:31:04 <Zuu> That factor could be labeled "resistance against competeing" and I get yet another AI setting :-)
16:32:07 <andythenorth> planetmaker: so now I'm back where I started the day, looking at a newgrf gui mockup :)
16:32:25 <andythenorth> but I might stop and look at some nfo for fields before frosch123 disappears from irc :)
16:32:26 <Zuu> And you haven't made the field grf yet? ;-)
16:39:51 <andythenorth> frosch123: so do I need to enable cb 0x155 with industry prop 21 or 22?
16:39:59 <andythenorth> I am reading the code, but out of my depth :)
16:46:50 <frosch123> you have to specify to industry to plant fields
16:47:16 <andythenorth> and then handle cb 0x155
16:47:17 <frosch123> somewhere in the industry behaviour flags
16:47:27 <frosch123> the callback itself does not need activation
16:48:56 <andythenorth> so cb 0x155 is 9Bh when I check it? Or am I being dumb?
16:52:01 <frosch123> 0x155 is already hex
16:52:54 <planetmaker> ha. Drive side and town names moved to game creation dialogue :-9
16:53:57 <andythenorth> ach, lets see if I can blow up the game
16:54:25 <Yexo> planetmaker: I think it's possible to change the drive side as long as no (road?) vehicles have been build
16:55:02 <planetmaker> Still it makes sense to move it away from the options to the game creation dialogue
16:55:30 <Zuu> the game creation dialogue will be accesible from inside the game if they haven't changed that in the proposal when I've been away.
16:55:41 <andythenorth> call it 'game setup' or 'game settings'
16:55:50 <andythenorth> and it has tabbed panes
16:55:58 <Yexo> ah, then it does make sense indeed
16:55:59 <planetmaker> andy but not yet :-)
16:56:08 <planetmaker> but that's the goal, yes
16:56:29 <andythenorth> planetmaker: obv. not :)
16:56:41 <Zuu> Do you plan to set up a project space at eg dev.openttdcoop org or something and collect the ideas there?
16:57:29 <planetmaker> probably a good idea, Zuu :-)
16:58:47 <planetmaker> 9 hours of discussion shouldn't just go to the waste bin ;-)
16:59:57 * andythenorth wishes his compile would go faster
17:01:06 <andythenorth> frosch123: well I managed to prevent any fields getting built at all :P
17:01:42 <frosch123> what did you try? :p
17:02:59 <andythenorth> I can work through some debugging myself, I've probably made silly errors
17:04:30 <frosch123> doesn't nforenum complain about the first sprite?
17:05:19 <frosch123> there is no industry id after the 89, and there is no callback result 0x8000
17:05:36 <andythenorth> all of those things :)
17:05:41 <andythenorth> get complained about
17:05:49 <andythenorth> I am fixing them
17:10:00 <andythenorth> frosch123: do I need to set tile prop 08 to 0xFE to have this work?
17:10:17 <andythenorth> spec implies yes...
17:11:27 <frosch123> and you also cannot use that tile in a regular industry layout then
17:18:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: the game thinks this is invalid action 0
17:19:49 <andythenorth> I must have done something wrong and then fixed it
17:19:59 <andythenorth> I have an advance :)
17:21:57 <andythenorth> having an action 3 for the tile might help :)
17:22:14 <ccfreak2k> andythenorth, armageddon!
17:24:27 * andythenorth just found an easy way to simulate grain elevators :P
17:24:31 <andythenorth> might be overkill though
17:25:40 <frosch123> are they player destroyable? does the game crash when you remove the industry?
17:26:58 <andythenorth> they are player destroyable :)
17:27:24 <andythenorth> and the game crashes when I removed the industry
17:27:35 <andythenorth> want a crash log? Or would you prefer the grf?
17:27:59 <andythenorth> I've hacked it together, the fault could be mine
17:28:14 <andythenorth> do you have a FIRS checkout? I could give you a diff
17:28:26 <frosch123> sure i have a firs checkout :)
17:28:32 * andythenorth wonders how to diff
17:31:05 <ccfreak2k> Fields of bulldozers.
17:31:43 <andythenorth> the diff might freak out due to an uncommitted change in a graphics file, so I included the grf
17:33:56 <andythenorth> interestingly the tiles are building foundations on slopes
17:34:04 <andythenorth> and I just got an assert from the minimap
17:34:28 <planetmaker> lol @ founations on fields :-)
17:34:52 <frosch123> actually fields on foundations :p
17:35:37 <planetmaker> is good for rice fields ;-)
17:37:48 * andythenorth waits for frosch123 to point out obvious nfo mistakes :(
17:38:47 <frosch123> well, the crashes are my fault :)
17:39:03 <frosch123> but you could test the animation control callback to remove tiles on their own
17:43:54 <frosch123> i guess stay away from the smallmap for now :p
17:45:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19774 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: czech - 33 changes by Hadez
17:45:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: korean - 3 changes by junho2813
17:45:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: portuguese - 3 changes by JayCity
17:45:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: russian - 24 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:45:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: slovenian - 3 changes by ntadej
17:46:05 <frosch123> oh well, i guess there is a lot of work left :s
17:47:33 <andythenorth> worth it though :)
17:50:54 <planetmaker> I'm just beaten with blindness. Where are the strings displayed in the adv. settings associated with an entry?
17:55:22 <planetmaker> ah.... right :-) Thanks
17:56:42 <__ln__> who wants to commit a critical patch related to full english breakfast?
18:01:08 <yorick> no grf sprite(except real sprites) can actually contain decimal data, right?
18:01:33 <frosch123> is it a then/than, safe/save or sucessfull/successful patch?
18:02:25 <frosch123> yorick: there are escapes, and strings, and ..
18:03:55 * andythenorth wonders how long this will take to blow up
18:04:28 <__ln__> yes, well, it may not cover all wrong thens.
18:04:34 <andythenorth> longer than I though
18:06:26 <andythenorth> frosch123: the land info tool exciting reports the tiles as 'arable farm (under construction)'
18:07:24 <frosch123> hmm, what should it report there?
18:07:34 <frosch123> houses have a description callback
18:08:19 <andythenorth> default game reports 'Fields'
18:08:28 <andythenorth> perhaps Fields (for INDUSTRY NAME)
18:08:41 <frosch123> but that fails once you plant other stuff than fields :)
18:09:13 <andythenorth> ok so maybe the cb for description then
18:10:02 <andythenorth> I don't have to enable cb 25 for tiles do I?
18:10:09 <andythenorth> can't see any spec saying I do
18:10:44 <frosch123> Triggers for callback 25 (11) <- property 11
18:11:20 <frosch123> only bit 0 and 1 are available for fields
18:11:37 <frosch123> that is, fields can only trigger themself, and are not triggered by the industry
18:13:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r19775 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: improper use of 'then' in few comments (ln)
18:15:23 <andythenorth> frosch123: trying to close fields neither blows up nor acts as expected :|
18:17:06 <frosch123> hmm, maybe i patched the wrong function :p
18:17:34 <andythenorth> maybe I wrote the wrong nfo
18:17:48 <frosch123> yeah, i patched cb 26, not 25
18:18:23 <frosch123> i guess both would make sense
18:21:19 <frosch123> now both cb 25 and 26 should work, but the value was changed from fd to fc
18:21:32 <frosch123> however, stay away from minimap, and do not close industries :p
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18:27:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: fieldss removing themselves now seems to work
18:29:05 * andythenorth thinks this will work for forests as well....there's plenty of animation control available to make it interesting
18:29:08 <frosch123> so, at least some stuff works :)
18:29:16 <andythenorth> want an updated grf?
18:30:35 <frosch123> yup, i guess then i can debug the rest over the week :s
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18:34:52 <frosch123> lots of houses are planted and then razed again :p
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18:36:11 <andythenorth> it's quite brutal :)
18:38:27 <planetmaker> killing fields in a new meaning ,eh?
18:38:51 <planetmaker> and that in a peaceful game like this
18:47:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: what results will field tiles get in resp. of tile var 43?
18:48:41 <frosch123> 0xFFFFFFFF if the industry no longer exists, else the usual value
18:49:48 <andythenorth> so signed (for negative x or y)?
18:51:45 <Ammler> wow, what a huge description field on the new window :-)
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18:55:54 <andythenorth> kogut just posted the equivalent of planetmaker's suggestion
18:57:27 <Ammler> well, it also depends how the window behaves on resize
18:58:49 <frosch123> wow, the new gui looks quite nice! (wrt. whitespace, label colours and such)
19:03:57 <Alberth> Ammler: both lists get about 1/2 of the vertical extra space
19:05:13 <frosch123> hmm, i guess there is a way to detect how many parameters are used by a newgrf. so we could display one parameter per row, and allow editing them separately
19:05:35 <planetmaker> frosch123: I'm not so sure about that assumption...
19:05:58 <frosch123> i thought about checking for actiond which assign only if not yet assigned
19:06:20 <Yexo> that doesn't detect those parameters where 0 is the default value
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19:07:23 <frosch123> hmm, ok, maybe it is too much effort then
19:07:43 <Alberth> planetmaker: you are going for a 2 screen wide gui? :p
19:08:05 <planetmaker> Alberth: it's not meant to be one window. But to show changes to both at the same time
19:08:18 <planetmaker> (driving side + town names got moved there from options)
19:08:52 <Zuu> planetmaker: If you plan to start doing small movements like this, perhaps do some kind of grouping like the image I posted before. It will of course be re-made later with the tab-views but so we don't have a total mess untill then. :-)
19:09:15 <planetmaker> and let's state: yes, GUI changes are easier than before your changes, Alberth :-)
19:09:46 <Zuu> You could to make it easy, just put things like drive side below the landscape stuff.
19:09:53 <planetmaker> Zuu: that will need doing, yes
19:10:04 <planetmaker> But IMHO the next step would rather be to add a tab thingy
19:10:30 <planetmaker> One row of buttons doesn't kill it.
19:10:41 <planetmaker> But it's one place less for real game options.
19:10:54 <planetmaker> So this is - IMHO - a good change even without anything else following ;-)
19:12:02 <planetmaker> but adding more to the window would kill the game start window, I'm with you there :-)
19:12:12 <frosch123> looking at difficulties: initial loan, inflation, running cost, breakdowns, subsidy multiplier, construction cost, recessions, train reversing, disasters and city tolerance are left. all into advanced settings?
19:12:18 <Zuu> If you plan to incoperate the NewGRF + AI stuff from start, we might concider implementing frames so that the NewGRF Setting window class type can change into Frame and then that frame is included in the world gen window. This way not *everything* has to go in the same class.
19:12:44 <planetmaker> except maybe disasters
19:13:04 <frosch123> where would you put disasters then? :p
19:13:12 <planetmaker> the world generation :-P
19:13:13 <Zuu> Though, I don't know what the devs opinion is on that, but I would probably try to not cramp everything in the same class.
19:13:48 <planetmaker> frosch123: for a starter I'd actually add them to the 2nd tab of the world generation window
19:14:06 <frosch123> Zuu: imo putting everything in one window is a bad idea. too much complexity for the neebie
19:14:06 <planetmaker> (which would then mimic the difficulty settings and offer a button to open the adv. settings
19:14:24 <andythenorth> everyone is always so concerned about the newbie :)
19:14:25 <Zuu> frosch123: The window will have tabs.
19:14:27 <planetmaker> then, next, most would be moved to adv. settings and some selected, often used ones added there
19:14:40 <planetmaker> sounds reasonable?
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19:14:47 <frosch123> planetmaker: what qualifies them to get their own window? imo they fit perfectly between the other advanced settings
19:15:52 <planetmaker> I guess a settings tab could copy those settings which cannot be changed on a running game
19:15:52 <frosch123> what is the difference between initial load, inflation and "no inflation" on the other side. breakdowns vs. realistic acceleration, recession vs. smooth economy, train reversing vs. 90 degree turns, city tolerance vs. airport noise?
19:15:59 <planetmaker> so that they're reviewed before starting
19:16:39 <planetmaker> frosch123: you could alternatively read the logs of this channel since about 10am :-P
19:16:48 <frosch123> hmm, why can't you change intial loan in game?
19:16:51 <planetmaker> yes: there's no difference
19:17:10 <frosch123> same about interest
19:17:12 <planetmaker> that's one of the reasons we want to get rid of difficulty settings
19:17:16 <Rubidium> frosch123: what's the point in changing the initial loan?
19:17:17 <Zuu> frosch123: The world gen dialog will be accesible from in game, with the settings that can't be changed grayed out.
19:17:23 <planetmaker> Rubidium: difficulty
19:17:37 <Rubidium> planetmaker: really?
19:17:50 <frosch123> Rubidium: rename it to "maximum loan"
19:17:58 <planetmaker> Rubidium: yes. With more loan I can borrow more and build a bigger more profitable route from the start.
19:18:00 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's looking good
19:18:14 <Rubidium> yeah, okay... you're right... finding the maximum loan and increasing your loan is more difficult
19:18:19 <andythenorth> but I think when you start trying to fit in height map stuff as well, you'll find you want that screen for 'other'
19:18:25 <andythenorth> or 'gameplay settings' :)
19:18:33 <Rubidium> planetmaker: that's not the initial loan, but the initial MAXIMUM loan
19:18:48 <frosch123> [21:17] <Zuu> frosch123: The world gen dialog will be accesible from in game, with the settings that can't be changed grayed out. <- that is were you can pm contratict the discussion of the day. you remove the stupid difficulty window, but create a new window?
19:18:58 <Ammler> hmm, I have a silly gui request: Might it be possible to move the close "X" to the right edge?
19:19:26 <Rubidium> Ammler: use Arabic or Hebrew
19:19:33 <planetmaker> frosch123: not quite
19:19:33 <Vornicus> I think there's enough buttons on the right already.
19:19:41 <Ammler> is there a WM, which has that on the left?
19:19:52 <frosch123> Ammler: just switch to a rtl language
19:19:56 <planetmaker> we want to move everything you need to consider to the window(s) behind the 'new game' button
19:20:01 <planetmaker> thus: a tab'ed window
19:20:06 <frosch123> oh, damn, rb said the same :p
19:20:07 <planetmaker> one tab needs to be settings
19:20:26 <Vornicus> (but OSX also puts minimize and maximize over on the left)
19:20:38 <andythenorth> Ammler: stupid other window managers
19:20:44 <frosch123> planetmaker: but aren't all options already there?
19:20:54 <planetmaker> and all settings are gathered there. Thus the adv. settings are moved there
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19:20:58 <planetmaker> frosch123: not at all.
19:21:05 <Prof_Frink> A suitably (mis)configured kwin.
19:21:06 <frosch123> (after moving driveside and town names)
19:21:07 <planetmaker> no newgrfs, no AI, no adv. settings there
19:21:08 <peter1138> all have the X on the left
19:21:12 <planetmaker> it's all in the main menu
19:21:24 <planetmaker> thus it's not clear it needs consideration
19:26:21 <peter1138> hmm, difficult to get a diff from the source for that :s
19:27:30 <planetmaker> frosch123: basically they are nearly all there. The UI things need to go then from the adv. settings to the options window
19:27:48 <planetmaker> as they're not related to the game creation at all
19:28:06 <planetmaker> and the savegame date format is better listed near the language settings and measurment units used
19:28:10 <andythenorth> peter1138 ha ha....TTD was one of the reasons my brother bought a Win 3.1 pc, which is how I started playing TTD in 1994. 'My' computer was an Acorn A3000
19:28:59 <planetmaker> How do I go about moving strings in _each_ language file to another place within them?
19:29:18 <Rubidium> planetmaker: you don't :)
19:29:19 <planetmaker> or is it sufficient to just move it in english.txt?
19:29:46 <Alberth> andythenorth: I started with a BBC B, and ended with one of the first risc os machines
19:30:27 <planetmaker> Rubidium: well, but if I rename strings?
19:30:34 * andythenorth played too much JCB Digger when small
19:30:52 <Alberth> then linux kernel 0.13 was released :)
19:31:00 <planetmaker> frosch123: renaming successful. But now moving them to another place in each file?
19:31:10 <frosch123> do not move them :)
19:31:17 <planetmaker> they're in the wrong place...
19:31:27 <Alberth> delete the original, insert a new one at the new place
19:31:28 <frosch123> i guess wt3 will do that
19:31:38 <planetmaker> like mapgen strings in the middle of game_options
19:31:47 <frosch123> but of course you could also do that with sed if you want to
19:32:10 <planetmaker> I don't have any idea how to do that with sed. Though it's probably possible
19:32:32 <Rubidium> I think it's better to keep a sed for renaming the other translations (so it can be done upon/after commit) and fix the order in english.txt
19:32:50 <Rubidium> then WT3 will make sure they're (over time) in the right order again
19:33:13 <planetmaker> Well, I did the replace with nedit, but that amounts to the same. One click, replace everywhere
19:33:39 <planetmaker> ok, then I'll just adopt English order ;-)
19:53:02 <andythenorth> planetmaker: ultimately....something like this?
19:53:07 * Zuu wonders why all intersection capacity model softwares name themself with uppercase names.
19:54:05 * Alberth expected nicely drawn tabs
19:54:27 <andythenorth> are they possible? I'm just going by what the game already does
19:54:47 <Zuu> There is image buttons, but duno if they can be used for that.
19:55:18 <andythenorth> we could add icons, but to what result? Pictures aren't always needed, they can just be visual noise
19:55:53 <Alberth> it needs work, but such a row of ugly buttons was the reason I tree-ified the advanced settings :)
19:56:14 <Alberth> (along with the recognition that space was very limited :) )
19:56:17 <Zuu> I was more refering to hacking in drawn tabs using image buttons :-)
19:56:33 <Zuu> But a better solution is probably to introduce a tab panel widget of some sort.
19:57:02 <andythenorth> as in 'translations might not fit'?
19:57:10 <Zuu> or as in translating images?
19:57:23 <Alberth> as in how to translate an image?
19:57:45 * andythenorth lives in a world where 'images for words' is a big no-no
19:58:05 <andythenorth> not accessible, not translatable, costs way too much money to maintain
19:58:25 <andythenorth> bad for seo, can't be searched, etc etc
19:58:25 <Zuu> I was thinking in the lines of image + text buttons but maybe that's not possible and still the idea was not really ment to be serious.
19:58:27 <Alberth> a widget that can select one plane to display from several planes already exists
19:58:39 <andythenorth> yep....would be worth doing.
19:58:54 <andythenorth> these are not proper tabs....they are....broken tabs because they don't connect to the pane
19:58:55 <Alberth> so you 'only' need to make a nice tab-like row
19:59:12 <andythenorth> they don't have to look like 'tabs', they just have to connect to the pane :)
19:59:54 <Zuu> Alberth: what do you think, is implementing frames something that this suggestion would need. The benefit would be to keep each tab content in their own class. And possible not having a giant widget tree with all widgets.
20:00:10 <Alberth> andythenorth: in RCT they use images for everything instead of words, no translations needed :)
20:00:34 <andythenorth> sucks unless you have some imaging library converting all your text to images :P
20:00:54 <andythenorth> after 16 years, is it time the game had some rounded corners?
20:01:00 <Alberth> no real proper images, like you draw them, not words as a collection of pixels
20:01:25 <Alberth> Zuu: what is a frame?
20:01:37 <Vornicus> I actually like the square thingies.
20:01:41 <frosch123> andythenorth: rounded corners are damn ugly
20:01:57 <andythenorth> but they don't fit TTD style :)
20:02:39 <Zuu> A frame in Delphi is almost like a window. It is a root level to place widgets on. Yet, the frame can be placed on other windows. This makes it possible to split up big windows in several classes as well as reusing a frame at many places.
20:02:54 <Alberth> Zuu: you are going to have 1 main class and 1 main widget tree, I think.
20:03:03 <frosch123> for tablike button in ttd i would suggest a trapezium shape
20:03:34 <frosch123> with a 90° angle on the left (for ltr languaes) and a 60° slope on the other end
20:03:42 * andythenorth suggests sticking with squares....as Simon Foster intended
20:04:09 <andythenorth> it's worked for 16 years, why start bleeding the interface now?
20:04:27 <Zuu> why bother with drag and drop then? ;-)
20:04:38 <andythenorth> it was always there
20:04:47 <Alberth> it has no rounded corners
20:04:55 <andythenorth> and interaction != graphic design
20:06:03 <Alberth> Zuu: the Window class is still the main point of entry for all callbacks, introducing a frame is going to be non-trivial, I think.
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20:07:32 <Zuu> I agree that frames would be non-trival. Maybe it will not work good in OpenTTD where each Window implementation does quite a lot of the input processing instead of having per-widget callbacks.
20:08:20 <frosch123> Alberth: isn't it just about using the same widget enum for all configuration windows, and then including a widget tree from another definition into a new definition?
20:08:50 <frosch123> i.e. instead of copy pasting some lines between containerstart/-end include some other widget tree
20:09:14 <frosch123> otoh, how many widgets does the advanced settings window have?
20:09:46 <Alberth> all settings are fake
20:11:38 <andythenorth> ^ would need to look more 'pane-like'
20:11:56 <Alberth> frosch123: what about al the OnXYZ callbacks? that's what I am worried about more
20:13:00 <planetmaker> Maybe we can treat that like a general task as is done for the OSX deprecation topic and was done for the window system transition?
20:13:13 <frosch123> i do not know the adv. settings window very well, but is it more than putting the drawwidget and onclick functions into some separate class?
20:13:41 <planetmaker> I also added the first three patches which move road vehicle and town names away from options
20:14:17 <planetmaker> frosch123: for the RV driving side virtually no work was required
20:14:24 <Zuu> well, the window that has frames would need to repeat the call to the OnXXX functions to the active frames.
20:14:48 <Zuu> Eg. on a tab window, only the visible panel/frame needs to be painted etc.
20:15:20 <Alberth> stacked widget takes care of that
20:15:49 <Alberth> although you may want to make a new 'widget' that redirects to the other window
20:18:27 <frosch123> anyway, i do not really favour the all in one tabbed window. better add some buttons for "newgrf settings", "ai settings", "game settings", "interface settings" or so
20:19:11 <planetmaker> frosch123: what's wrong with tabbed? It's actually a design which intuitvely is associated with several options which configure a common thing
20:19:43 <frosch123> it restricts the window size, everything needs to fit into the same space
20:19:59 <frosch123> and i do not consider it more intuitive for very different things
20:20:21 <planetmaker> consider it globally: what do I need to do to get a new map started?
20:20:29 <planetmaker> - set map preferences
20:20:33 <planetmaker> - set newgrf preferences
20:20:37 <planetmaker> - set AI preferences
20:20:43 <planetmaker> - set 'other' settings
20:20:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker steals my words :o
20:20:59 <planetmaker> feel honoured. It's a sign of good wording ;-)
20:21:19 <planetmaker> luckily you cannot copyright those words :-P
20:22:02 <andythenorth> i was going to type the same, but it's slow with one hand :P
20:22:38 <planetmaker> let your son do the typing ;-)
20:24:02 <andythenorth> WS5II8QWEFUKqef8i3 c bbb
20:24:04 <Alberth> to make start of a new game more streamlined is good, but all settings stuff in one big window feels a bit bulky
20:24:17 <Alberth> andythenorth: now you type the missing letters :)
20:24:34 <andythenorth> Alberth: it's clear that there is still 'advanced settings' ?
20:25:26 <planetmaker> Alberth: I agree, I'm unsure about the (current) advanced settings. They're many.
20:25:46 <planetmaker> But then, I think that a tab view will give the strongest hint of what needs doing
20:26:05 <planetmaker> and it's like one window for each. They just share a common header
20:26:16 <planetmaker> E.g. the newgrf window hardly needs changing
20:26:21 <planetmaker> nor the KI window
20:26:31 <andythenorth> I think current advanced settings is fine and can handle the extra stuff from 'game options' that can be added to it
20:26:33 <planetmaker> actually the adv. settings neither
20:26:50 <planetmaker> it just needs visual integration
20:26:58 <Alberth> so it is going to be a nicely inconsistent mess :)
20:27:10 <planetmaker> Alberth: as it is now
20:27:19 <planetmaker> but it makes things obvious
20:27:23 <Alberth> different styles all over the place :)
20:27:29 <planetmaker> making it consistent is then the next thing :-)
20:27:33 <Alberth> I agree with your remark
20:27:42 <andythenorth> currently it is very hard to build a mental model of what is where
20:27:52 <andythenorth> I get lost, and I've been playing OTTD for 4 years
20:28:10 <Alberth> yes, I agree the idea and the intention are good
20:28:21 <Alberth> window style is not that important now
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20:28:49 <planetmaker> it's a project of similar impact as your window system. Maybe not quite as big. But it will take time. Quite some
20:28:55 <Alberth> the qeustion is just whether throwing it all in a single window is such a good idea
20:29:10 <planetmaker> I do think it makes sense :-)
20:29:15 <Alberth> although i also agree a tabbed panel is the obvious choice
20:29:20 <Zuu> A ugly hack would be to have each tab pane in their existing windows and create a fift window with the head that opens/closes each panel-window.
20:29:49 <planetmaker> finding a common size is not that difficult. They're approx. similar anyway
20:29:56 <planetmaker> and given the re-sizing capability...
20:30:02 <andythenorth> constraints are good....
20:30:09 <andythenorth> they will force design choices
20:30:21 <Alberth> Zuu: as a proof of concept, that would be a good solution for a first impression
20:30:36 <andythenorth> everybody wants a pony with the current GUI, and that pony means 'buttons everywhere' :P
20:30:47 <andythenorth> all crammed together
20:30:58 <planetmaker> Zuu: yes, as transition / mockup that might actually work
20:31:09 <andythenorth> stacked vertical buttons with no gaps makes it very easy to click on the wrong hit target, drives me nuts
20:31:10 <Alberth> 1x1 pixel seems big enough to me :)
20:31:23 <planetmaker> :-D. black or white only, please!
20:31:54 * andythenorth envisages....no nvm
20:32:07 <Alberth> use tooltip to decide which button you have :p
20:32:44 <andythenorth> 1x2 pixels. 1 black (0), 1 white (1). Set preferences with patterns of clicks corresponding to binary
20:33:17 <andythenorth> if we had 16 pixels it could be byte code
20:36:44 <Alberth> we have 256 colours :)
20:37:26 <planetmaker> good night, Albert...
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22:44:45 <Eddi|zuHause> haha, elections in germany are way more funy... 5 parties, two large parties have 67 seats, smaller parties have 23, 13 and 11 seats: necessary for majority: 91, any "sensible" coalition has only <=90 seats
22:46:28 <Zuu> I'm a bit dissapointed that in Sweden two blocks has been formed with 4 respective 3 parties in each which make up their sides before the election. Now it becomes less and less important which party in the block you vote on.
22:47:00 <Zuu> IMHO you should tell which party/persons you like and then after that the parties that people like most form an alianse.
22:47:41 <Zuu> With the current development we soon get the US situation with just two parties to vote on.
22:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the difference in germany is that nobody really wants a coalition with the "left" party
22:48:17 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have two blocks who neither can get a majority
22:48:25 <Eddi|zuHause> ... more often than not
22:48:58 <Zuu> I guess with the WW2 history it is much more forbidden to include the "left" party in Germany than in other countries.
22:49:42 <Eddi|zuHause> this is more about the post-ww2 history
22:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause> in this election in the Land Nordrhein-Westfalen the possible coalitions were a little more open, because it was kinda expected that the existing conservative (black)/liberal (yellow) coalition wasn't going to win anyway, so they hoped they could form an experimental black/green coalition
22:52:08 <Eddi|zuHause> which now also doesn't have a majority
22:53:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the only sensible coalitions now are a "grand coalition" (black/red) between the two large parties or a "red/red/green" coalition with the left party
22:54:01 <SmatZ> what is wrong with me? I am playing Portal, and I simply can kill my companion cube!
22:54:13 <SmatZ> because... I like her...
22:54:15 <Eddi|zuHause> way lesser chance has a "jamaica" (black/yellow/green) coalition
22:55:10 <Eddi|zuHause> or an "ampel" [=traffic light] (red/yellow/green) coalition
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23:33:54 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: At present we have "Blue/Yellow-who-hate-each-other" or "Yellow/Red/4-tiny-others-which-won't-be-stable" :P
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23:35:57 <OwenS> The other thing is that the 4-tiny-others will try to extract blood, being as they are
23:36:30 <OwenS> But hey, at least in Germany a party which gets 23% of the vote gets 23% of the seats rather than 11% :P
23:45:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the difference is that it's extremely unlikely that you have "4 tiny others"
23:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> as parties with less than 5% of the votes get no seats
23:50:13 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: We have 7 small parties ;)
23:50:26 <OwenS> But yes our system is broken. Why do you think its top of the Lib Dem's agenda? :p
23:50:49 <Eddi|zuHause> we have about 20 small parties, but rarely anyone of these gets significant amount of votes
23:51:23 <OwenS> The parties go, sizewise, 306/258/57/8/6/5/3/3/1/1/0.../1 (the last is an independent)
23:51:36 <Eddi|zuHause> you occasionally hear outcries when a right wing party manages to get into a parliament, but usually they get out of there in the next election
23:52:20 <OwenS> Our rightwing nutjobs got 1.9% of the vote, but no seats
23:53:48 <Eddi|zuHause> 5% is a pretty steep margin. nationwide that means about 2 million votes
23:54:38 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: DUP got 8 seats but only 0.6% of the votes... our system is really screwy like that :p
23:55:27 <OwenS> (Northern Ireland's constituencies are smaller population wise, so they have a significantly above-average proportion of the seats for their population)
23:55:30 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you have a regionally founded party that can do that, that is possible in germany as well
23:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. bavaria's CSU
23:56:30 <OwenS> Also, none of the national parties stand in Northern Irelend (But do everywhere else), bizzarely
23:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause> when they get 50% in bavaria, that means they easily pass 5% nationwide, with only bavarian votes
23:57:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but the CSU has kind of a "fixed" coalition with the CDU, which runs in the rest of germany
23:58:02 <OwenS> Heh, we don't really have any coalitions.
23:58:26 <OwenS> The SNP have spent the last 5 years attacking Labour. Now they want to cuddle up to them because they hate the Conservatives more :p
23:58:37 <Eddi|zuHause> it's more than a coalition
23:58:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it's more like "sister parties"
23:59:57 <Eddi|zuHause> mean they form one united fraction, not two separate ones
continue to next day ⏵
