IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-05-06
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06:02:55 <KingRobot> planetmaker: I posted a final version of the mouse fix this evening.
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06:40:19 <planetmaker> KingRobot: I tested it
06:40:57 <planetmaker> I find it strange. I _can_ reproduce the imprinted mouse bug (when switching to full screen in 8bpp-optimized blitter) with _every_ of those three fixes you posted
06:41:18 <planetmaker> Meaning: I have to revoke my statement from yesterday that the 2nd version fixes it :-(
06:41:25 <planetmaker> That leaves me wondering...
06:41:37 <KingRobot> Er, what happened yesterday, then?
06:41:48 <planetmaker> KingRobot: _that_ I wonder about.
06:42:34 <planetmaker> There must be something else in play which did *something* to make sure that kCGErrorFailure didn't occur...
06:42:46 <planetmaker> And I have no frigging idea as of what :-(
06:43:06 <KingRobot> The 2nd fix doesn't use that error check
06:43:15 <KingRobot> So that's not the issue.
06:43:26 <planetmaker> I just played through every patch, yeah :S
06:44:02 <KingRobot> are you familiar with libgmalloc?
06:44:22 <planetmaker> what's the issue with it?
06:44:32 <KingRobot> None; it's an OS X debugging tool
06:44:52 <KingRobot> It checks for memory overwrites... sort of a valgrind lite
06:45:10 <KingRobot> It's only good for 10.6
06:45:25 <KingRobot> All you have to do to use it is
06:45:28 <KingRobot> set DYLD_INSERT_LIBRARIES to /usr/lib/libgmalloc.dylib
06:45:31 <KingRobot> then run the program
06:46:36 <KingRobot> It will yield a EXC_BAD_ACCESS at the location in the code that caused it.
06:47:32 <KingRobot> You might try that.
06:47:51 <KingRobot> The trouble is that the cursor is in the framebuffer
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06:48:41 <KingRobot> So, if the cursor is enabled and you're blitting pixels direct to the framebuffer, you don't stand a chance.
06:49:08 <KingRobot> The cursor may or may not win since you're both writing to the same bit of memory.
06:51:34 <planetmaker> hehe... sluggish behaviour ;-)
06:54:11 <KingRobot> Hmm, it's not an overflow then
06:56:19 <KingRobot> Does the cursor ever have any reason to be visible in full-screen mode?
06:56:53 <KingRobot> I was a bit confused by fullscreen.mm:350
06:57:49 <planetmaker> Well, one wants a cursor also in full-screen mode, not?
06:57:56 <planetmaker> Though not during switching, I guess
06:58:11 <planetmaker> Maybe it might be a good idea to undraw it, then switch modes, then draw it again?
06:58:20 <KingRobot> By the time it has reached that line, it's already faded in
06:58:38 <KingRobot> So why would we ever need to see the OS cursor after that point?
06:59:16 <planetmaker> I don't know wether it's the OS cursor. Maybe as it fits the colour. But the shape is... ragged and tattered.
06:59:49 <KingRobot> Well, I have two more ideas that can be tried.
07:00:18 <KingRobot> A: Set the cursor to a custom all alpha cursor whenever it should be hidden.
07:01:43 <KingRobot> B: Shove the cursor to the bottom right corner of the screen using CGDisplayMoveCursorToPoint
07:02:09 <KingRobot> A may or may not work, depending on the issue you're describing
07:02:24 <KingRobot> B would leave a single pixel in the corner having the problem
07:03:13 <planetmaker> it's somehow still connecte to the colour space...
07:03:31 <KingRobot> What API are you building against?
07:03:44 <planetmaker> CGSColorProfileCreateWithColorSpace: Invalid ICC color space(0x18821dfe0)
07:04:06 <KingRobot> Ah, you see that in the console?
07:04:18 <planetmaker> what I posted is output in the console
07:04:26 <planetmaker> like what I posted in FS yesterday. yes
07:05:05 <KingRobot> Are you building 64-bits against 10.6?
07:05:47 <planetmaker> yes, it's a x64 build
07:06:05 <KingRobot> Ah, I wonder if that is the issue.
07:06:46 <KingRobot> I'm building 32-bits against the 10.4 and 10.5 SDKs, and I have not been able to replicat the issue when running that binary on 10.6.3
07:06:54 <Rubidium> planetmaker: does it happen with the x86 build? Is it fixed with KingRobot's patches on the x86 build?
07:07:15 <planetmaker> I need to test. Can any of you two quickly give me the configure command for that end?
07:07:29 <Rubidium> because if so, isn't the "better" fix to just not make x64 binaries anymore?
07:07:56 <planetmaker> that can result in serious library issues
07:08:17 <planetmaker> if they are not compiled universally by e.g. macports by default
07:08:25 <planetmaker> one has to ask for the specifically
07:08:43 <planetmaker> I did, though. Except libtimidity which macports has not
07:08:45 <KingRobot> planetmaker: my configure looks like this:
07:08:55 <KingRobot> ./configure --cc-build="gcc-4.0" --cc-host="gcc-4.0" --cxx-build="g++-4.0" --cxx-host="g++-4.0" --with-cocoa --enable-universal
07:09:53 <planetmaker> is --with-cocoa needed? And the gcc selection? Should be default
07:10:27 <KingRobot> planetmaker & Rubidium - there is currently no (compatibility) reason to build x86_64 for 10.6 unless you are writing screensavers.
07:11:35 <planetmaker> hmpf... configure already tells me that I'll compile two ppc versions which will fail to link...
07:11:42 <planetmaker> I don't have ppc libraries currently
07:11:49 <planetmaker> can I skip those building steps
07:12:46 <Rubidium> heh, I'm just proposing the OS X solutions applied lately... instead of finding a way to determine when it is or isn't buggy "you" declare it always buggy
07:13:13 <Rubidium> planetmaker: 3 ppc binaries :)
07:13:47 <planetmaker> Rubidium: no, not fat please ;-)
07:15:41 <planetmaker> WARNING: Could not find a usable 10.4u SDK, the resulting <- hm...
07:15:59 <planetmaker> ls /Developer/SDKs/
07:16:01 <planetmaker> MacOSX10.3.9.sdk MacOSX10.5.sdk
07:16:02 <planetmaker> MacOSX10.4u.sdk MacOSX10.6.sdk
07:16:25 <KingRobot> Using which configure string?
07:16:45 <planetmaker> --enable-universal --without-libtimidity
07:17:05 <KingRobot> Did you specify the gcc-4.0 compiler?
07:17:20 <KingRobot> 10.4u SDK will not build with the 4.2 compiler
07:18:03 <KingRobot> How are you setting 8bpp? Maybe I'm not doing it right.
07:18:17 <planetmaker> blitter = 8bpp-optimized in the openttd.cfg
07:18:23 <planetmaker> or what do you mean?
07:19:37 <planetmaker> of course we could just say that it's a deprecated setting - it's not the default anymore anyway...
07:21:32 <dihedral> remember that planetmaker ?
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07:21:49 <planetmaker> oh yes. Great fun!
07:22:35 <planetmaker> ~/ottd/trunk> ./configure CFLAGS="-arch i386" --without-libtimidity <-- I'll try that for i386 binary
07:22:55 <KingRobot> Care to just try my binary?
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07:24:40 <planetmaker> is there a quick way to inspect the arch a binary was build for?
07:24:58 <KingRobot> lipo -info /path/to/binary
07:26:03 <planetmaker> src/newgrf_debug_gui.cpp:105: warning: ‘class NIHelper’ has virtual functions but non-virtual destructor <-- that was a gcc40 bug, right?
07:27:00 <KingRobot> Not sure... I get that too, but it's just a warning.
07:27:48 <planetmaker> I recall that gcc issues *some* bogus warning. But not which
07:28:25 <planetmaker> src/smallmap_gui.cpp:642: warning: ‘tile$y’ may be used uninitialized in this function <-- I think it was this, though
07:31:13 <planetmaker> I just started my version as configured as pasted above
07:32:09 <planetmaker> one odditiy (which I *think* I saw the last time with the x64 version, too, but now I paid close attention): the mouse cursor was fine when switching to full screen the FIRST time
07:32:32 <planetmaker> but it got an ugly permanent mark every subsequent time when switching to full screen
07:33:46 <planetmaker> KingRobot: your version has the mouse cursor issue, too
07:34:14 <KingRobot> Which mac & video card?
07:34:26 <planetmaker> macbook with on-board video by intel
07:35:55 <planetmaker> Graphics: Intel GMA 950, GMA 950, Built-In, spdisplays_integrated_vram
07:36:08 <KingRobot> I have a Macbook Pro with nVidia, and am no longer to replicate the issue since the patch
07:36:30 <KingRobot> Is yours the black or the white macbook
07:36:31 <planetmaker> Model: MacBook2,1, BootROM MB21.00A5.B07, 2 processors, Intel Core 2 Duo, 2 GHz, 2 GB, SMC 1.13f3
07:37:20 <KingRobot> My wife has a nearly identical model running 10.6.3. Perhaps I can replicate it there.
07:37:57 <planetmaker> It somewhat depended on *something* else
07:38:12 <planetmaker> Whether some mode was set or switched by another programme or not
07:38:23 <planetmaker> when done beore, it worked
07:38:31 <planetmaker> when not done, the error showed.
07:38:45 <planetmaker> But that's just a gut feeling which I couldn't point my finger at.
07:38:55 <KingRobot> It's a fair guess, at any point
07:38:56 <planetmaker> And at that time I failed to get the error again. So... fine
07:39:08 <planetmaker> obviously it wasn't quite as fine, though
07:39:41 <planetmaker> well, not that message what I got, but these terminal / console messages
07:40:41 <KingRobot> do you know how to set a breakpoint on a symbol in gdb?
07:41:18 <planetmaker> but it's not something which cannot be found out
07:41:38 <KingRobot> I'd like to find out where CGSColorProfileCreateWithColorSpace is being called from.
07:45:39 <KingRobot> Seems to be a rabbit trail
07:46:17 <KingRobot> CGSColorProfileCreateWithColorSpace is being called, not when starting into full-screen mode, but when exiting from full-screen mode and creating the quartz window.
07:56:20 <KingRobot> Or, as has been mentioned, we could simply disallow 8-bit color under 10.6
07:56:36 <KingRobot> It's not like any machine running 10.6 won't have the horsepower to handle 32 bits
07:58:33 <dihedral> grr - awstats aint doing what i want it to do ....
07:59:02 <dihedral> have multiple logs in one log file (using vhost_alias)
07:59:09 <KingRobot> It's like as not that direct blitting to the display will be gone altogether with the next version of the OS.
07:59:11 <dihedral> i.e. *.example.org goes to one log file
07:59:30 <dihedral> how can i not tell awstats to use that vhost name when linking in the stats?
07:59:51 <KingRobot> dihedral: sadly I only know webalizer :)
08:00:43 <dihedral> i used to do that with webalizer
08:00:53 <dihedral> i mangled the log files before processing ^^
08:03:19 <planetmaker> KingRobot: the reverse? ;-)
08:03:46 <planetmaker> a 32 or 64 bit machine cannot handle 8 bits. Too tiny to care correctly about :-P
08:04:24 <KingRobot> What about a new video driver using glDrawPixels?
08:04:40 <planetmaker> if that makes it future-proof: go for it :-)
08:04:49 <planetmaker> I don't know what 10.7 will bring us in that respect.
08:05:19 <KingRobot> Future-proofed software for OS X is an oxymoron :)
08:05:59 <KingRobot> But for now, glDrawPixels is not listed as deprecated, so it should at least work for 10.7
08:07:42 <KingRobot> The only drawback is that I've read it is slow, but perhaps if we are sending in 8-bit indexed data it might work.
08:09:23 <KingRobot> The other option is quad tiling
08:09:41 <planetmaker> for sure make it another configure option :-)
08:10:50 <planetmaker> then we can have tripple fun on a mac: cocoa-traditional, sdl, and cocoal-modern ;-)
08:11:13 <KingRobot> The SDL version is borked as far as I know
08:11:29 <KingRobot> And I know nothing about SDL, so I'm not likely to fix it
08:12:04 <planetmaker> I tested it once just because - and it was "interesting"
08:12:20 <planetmaker> well, FS has the result ;-)
08:15:09 <KingRobot> Are you familiar with dirty_rects?
08:19:20 <planetmaker> I think I have an idea of the concept
08:19:46 <planetmaker> except if it is a function with that particular name.
08:19:52 <planetmaker> I haven't really dealt with GUI code
08:22:19 <KingRobot> a function really? it looks like a structure
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08:33:48 <planetmaker> ok, I have no idea... hm... there he goes
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09:07:17 <dihedral> Rubidium_ / TrueBrain: which one of you setup your awstats?
09:07:23 <dihedral> i am assuming it was TrueBrain ?
09:07:50 <dihedral> do you use separate stats for each subdomain, or do you have them somhow combined?
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09:29:44 <planetmaker> ah... there is ;-)
09:30:57 <TrueBrain> I just have one general advise: never use awstats
09:31:33 <dihedral> why is that TrueBrain
09:32:09 <dihedral> can you be more specific?
09:32:37 <TrueBrain> webalizer does what it should do, and at an amazing speed :)
09:32:37 <dihedral> TrueBrain: something really puzles me
09:32:57 <dihedral> there was a time where you said webalizer sucks, and awstats is way better,
09:33:02 <dihedral> now you are back to square one
09:33:09 <TrueBrain> opinions change. I hope I am allowed to?
09:33:17 <dihedral> there seems to be moments where you to that with every peice of (something) you do
09:33:31 <dihedral> and you always do it very vaguely
09:33:37 <TrueBrain> as every sane human being should be doing
09:33:41 <dihedral> i.e. - that sucks, that's better
09:34:17 <TrueBrain> there is a reason I don't go into details; mostly because it is my opinion, and every other person should find it out for his self what he likes/dislikes
09:34:27 <TrueBrain> when I go into detail, I have concrete reasons for nobody to ever use it
09:34:52 <TrueBrain> you have likes and dislikes
09:34:58 <TrueBrain> they change over time (at least, I hope so)
09:35:06 <dihedral> i would really love to know why you think awstats sucks ;-)
09:35:07 <TrueBrain> so you say: this I don't eat, it is shit
09:35:09 <TrueBrain> while others LOVE to eat it
09:35:42 <dihedral> just so that hopefully i do not need to go through the same process ^^
09:41:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i hate "raw" cheese
09:41:35 <Eddi|zuHause> but i love cheese on pizza
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10:18:09 <blathijs> TrueBrain: Now there's crappy timing for expression opinions: I've just set up awstats for a bunch of domains this week :-)
10:18:21 <TrueBrain> dihedral: well, enjoy it :p
10:18:37 <TrueBrain> awstats was nice, till a certain limit
10:21:09 <blathijs> So, performance is the main problem with awstats?
10:21:36 <blathijs> Looking at the sample report from webalizer, it doesn't seem to add much (actuallly show less, I think..)
10:26:15 <TrueBrain> blathijs: performance, but also sane things like: configuration, and installation. And: do-not-break-on-every-update
10:26:48 <TrueBrain> and webalizer is far from perfect, but at least it just works :)
10:27:03 <TrueBrain> modlogan was much better on all terms
10:27:21 <TrueBrain> I am still waiting for some sane person to make a stats app which also parses subdomains and shit correctly
10:27:39 <blathijs> So, from the looks of it, I guess I'm more happy with awstats now. Though I'm kinda wondering why I didn't even look at webalizer last week, I thought that awstats was the only sane and maintained log analyzer left
10:27:58 <TrueBrain> webalizer is the oldest and most used
10:28:04 <blathijs> Yeah, modlogan was awesome, I think I've even done some hacking for it a while back
10:28:08 <TrueBrain> awstats is the 'newer' brother, but becomes more and more bloatware :(
10:29:32 <blathijs> One of the things I miss in all of those, though, is freely zooming around the dataset. e.g., seeing the google terms for a specific day instead of only per month, or between two dates, etc.
10:29:56 <blathijs> But I guess that takes way more storage space and processing time to dynamically generate those reports
10:30:16 <blathijs> And I'm not even sure I'd really use that if it were possible, it just sounds useful :-p
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10:56:34 <planetmaker> {BLACK}Increase servicing interval with 10. Ctrl+Click increases servicing interval with 5 <-- sounds wrong to me
10:56:52 <planetmaker> wouldn't it have to say "...increase ...by 10..." ?
10:57:06 <planetmaker> and by 5 respectively?
11:03:12 <dihedral> TrueBrain: what you mention above all is helpful ;-)
11:03:36 <dihedral> i.e. performance, bloatware, breaking upon upgrade ....
11:03:46 <dihedral> just the things i wanted to hear from you
11:03:55 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I smells like a dutch person wrote that :p
11:04:17 <dihedral> does webalizer decently process multiple vhost_alias entries in a single log file?
11:04:23 <dihedral> or how do you go about that?
11:04:31 <dihedral> i.e. if *.example.org was all logged to one file
11:04:46 <TrueBrain> dihedral: it is just the same old cynical me, so you could have filled that in yourself :p
11:05:01 <TrueBrain> dihedral: no stat system really likes subdomains
11:05:10 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, given the average nationality of an OpenTTD dev, the chances are not that bad :-P
11:05:49 <dihedral> i used to pre-process my logs, moving the vhost-name into the request uri
11:05:55 <dihedral> before webalizer would process the logs
11:06:01 <dihedral> that used to work kind of ^^
11:06:18 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: darn, you are on to me :)
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12:11:57 <Adambean> hm. is it safe to disconnect the front panel audio header (ac97 based) from a sound card while the system is running? discovered the cba to shut
12:12:06 <Adambean> L/R is the wrong way, needs flipping
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12:25:20 <glx> Adambean: disconnecting front panel will probably shutdown rear panel
12:25:30 <Adambean> nah it hasnt still working
12:25:35 <Adambean> pics or it didnt happen? ;)
12:25:58 <Adambean> www.reece-eu.net/tmp/ac97-frontpanel-hotswapped.jpg
12:26:05 <glx> because the you need jumpers to have sound in rear without front
12:26:25 <Adambean> not on this card you dont
12:26:31 <glx> but except that there's no real risk
12:26:58 <Adambean> now to swap pin 6 and 10
12:27:14 <glx> it's AC97 standard, rear is disabled when you plug a jack in front
12:27:34 <glx> so if you remove front, it's the same
12:28:17 <Adambean> this card does intel hd out or ac97
12:28:21 <Adambean> so i guess it doesnt care
12:28:27 <Adambean> you also have to select front panel out in the driver
12:28:30 <Adambean> treats them independantly
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12:32:44 <Adambean> swapped. now to reconnect it
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17:24:05 <Limb> Hey quick question, how do I get cargo from a road depot to a train station?
17:24:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Limb: they must be the same station
17:25:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Limb: try building the second station with ctrl
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17:45:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19763 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:45:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by habell
17:45:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: irish - 3 changes by tem
17:45:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: italian - 3 changes by lorenzodv
17:45:49 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 3 changes by mantaray
17:45:49 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 3 changes by mantaray
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18:32:12 <Sacro> 'irish' isn't a language
18:35:53 <planetmaker> g'day andythenorth
18:36:00 <planetmaker> Sacro, but it's a translation.
18:37:05 <peter1138> this is where sacro is wrong
18:37:29 <Sacro> shouldn't it be 'gaelic' ?
18:37:49 <Sacro> or is it just english with a lot more swearing
18:40:31 <Xaroth> people sometimes call it Irish Gaelic tho
18:41:03 <Xaroth> but Gaelic is the proper term for scottish
18:41:18 <Xaroth> so to make it more complex they call it Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic
18:41:43 <peter1138> it's Irish, in english
18:41:46 <peter1138> and Gaeilge in Irish
18:42:01 <Xaroth> there was another Gaelic but i forgot where that one got from
18:43:39 <Sacro> i thought it was gaelic and scots?
18:44:02 <Xaroth> no, Gaelic is just used for anything semi-english :p
18:45:45 <Xaroth> but apparently, the Irish script is called Gaelic :P
18:45:55 <Xaroth> damn them brits are confusing :/
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19:21:58 <Wizzleby> Gaelic is hardly semi-english, though modern english retains some gaelic loanwords... but the linguistic rules of the three Goidelic celtic languages are rather far from english =P
19:22:55 <Wizzleby> example: mhaol: pronounced 'mweel'
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19:46:09 <andythenorth> frosch123: if we're going to have hovercraft travelling on land, I'll have to redraw the sprites for 'spray' (which uses the water cycle) :P
19:46:52 <frosch123> maybe replace it with the demolition animation
19:47:38 <andythenorth> it clears the fence nicely....
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19:50:15 <frosch123> you know the simcity ufo?
19:51:49 <andythenorth> fjb: hmmm hovercraft drives through houses
19:52:14 * andythenorth envisages free-roaming vehicles.
19:52:26 <andythenorth> however not free-roaming through buildings
19:53:09 <andythenorth> except for bulldozers
19:53:18 <andythenorth> which can go anywhere they choose
19:53:35 <fjb> That will make the people unhappy.
19:54:59 <fjb> And buoys will look strange at land.
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19:55:48 * fjb would definitely not like a hovercraft moving around his kitchen.
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19:59:09 <andythenorth> fjb: you never know until you try it
19:59:52 * Eddi|zuHause needs a hovercraft in 1:87 scale...
20:01:11 * frosch123 needs a hovercraft in a about twice the size as the stupid quad which is driving every morning at 7:00 around my house, and does more noise than three harleys or so
20:03:35 * Eddi|zuHause wonders whether a hovercraft is covered by the StVZO
20:04:04 <frosch123> what does the Z mean?
20:04:23 *** [alt]buster is now known as [com]buster
20:04:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it defines which vehicles are allowed to go on public roads
20:09:31 <__ln__> apropos, youtube claims that Christopher Lee has dubbed himself into German in some 80's movie.
20:09:41 * andythenorth wonders if hovercraft would go straight over hills, or try and follow valleys
20:10:55 <fjb> __ln__: It is true. He speaks German very well.
20:11:42 <fjb> andythenorth: Depends on its power and the trees.
20:11:47 <andythenorth> trees might be a problem indeed
20:11:51 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: yes, he speaks german
20:13:45 <__ln__> fjb, Eddi: yeah, he does, i've seen an interview of him in german
20:14:15 <__ln__> still, Arnold speaks german but doesn't dub himself. :)
20:14:43 <Nite_Owl> my hovercraft is full of eels
20:14:47 <fjb> His German sounds more like English now.
20:14:50 <andythenorth> that must be pleasing
20:15:54 <andythenorth> what supplies eels?
20:17:15 <andythenorth> what accepts eels?
20:17:51 <__ln__> Nite_Owl: i asked a few days ago whether hovercraft can be refitted for eels, but i was told no. :(
20:17:52 <Nite_Owl> the local eel house ??
20:18:45 *** [com]buster is now known as Combuster
20:20:27 <andythenorth> __ln__: it wasn't me who said no was it?
20:21:06 <Nite_Owl> the original sketch should be on youtube
20:21:44 <__ln__> andythenorth: i can't remember; maybe.
20:22:17 <__ln__> and quite surprisingly, the original sketch is legally on youtube.
20:22:27 <andythenorth> definitely can be refitted to eels
20:22:50 <Combuster> I want my bug back :'(
20:25:16 * andythenorth fails to either code something or read the book on lean software development :P
20:25:38 <Nite_Owl> Python donated a lot of their shows to youtube
20:29:59 <Nite_Owl> still funny after all these years
20:45:27 * andythenorth thinks the UK government may contain eels soon
20:54:02 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: there is currently no grf providing eels, so it can't be refitted to eels.
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20:58:57 <andythenorth> is the UK government refittable to eels?
20:59:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that i don't know
20:59:45 <Nite_Owl> only the slimy kind ??
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21:07:08 <Eddi|zuHause> these british people might make their first step into a modern democracy today
21:15:43 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: That first step being?
21:16:01 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: the need for a coalition
21:16:36 <OwenS> The exit polls say that the seats will be 307/255/59/19, (Con/Lab/LibDem/Other), which means no majority, which means coalition seems likely
21:17:04 <OwenS> (It must be admitted UK exit polls are notoriously unreliable)
21:17:14 <OwenS> As incumbents Labour get the chance to form government first - probably by trying to ally with the liberal democrats
21:17:25 <SmatZ> 650 total, isn't that too much?
21:17:46 <Eddi|zuHause> germany has a similar number...
21:17:51 <OwenS> SmatZ: 650 seats for members of the house of commons
21:18:22 <Eddi|zuHause> but due to germany's obscure system, the number can vary depending on the results of the election...
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21:19:09 <OwenS> Interestingly, both Labour and the Lib Dems have electoral reform high on their priorities
21:21:39 <SmatZ> in most cases, and in (almost) all cases of important laws, all members of one party vote the same
21:21:56 <SmatZ> so I wonder why are there so many members in the parliament...
21:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: one representant for each region
21:23:14 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: you have different system than we have then :) so does it mean, when one party has (little) majority in all regions, it will get 100% of seats in the parliament?
21:23:18 <OwenS> It actually results in isdiosyncratic representations because regions have different populations
21:23:25 <OwenS> SmatZ: That is the case. Thats the issue
21:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: in britain they have majority voting system, so that can happen, yes
21:23:53 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: in germany, they have a hybrid system
21:24:00 <OwenS> Both Labour and LibDems want to switch to Single Transferable Vote
21:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause> 299 seats are given by majority vote, and an additional 299 seats are given by proportional vote
21:25:10 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have 2*299+X members in the german Bundestag
21:25:16 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Thats the system I've wanted :p
21:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> where X is a complicated number when a party gets more majority seats than their proportional vote allows
21:26:29 <SmatZ> we have several regions, each region has X seats - and in each region is proportional vote
21:27:22 <OwenS> SmatZ: Thats basically what Single Transferable Vote is, with a slight modification so that regions still have a representative MP
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21:30:16 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: example: say a party got 10 direct candidates elected, but by the proportional vote it is only entitled to 8 seats, then 2 additional seats get awarded to the party, resulting in X=2
21:31:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it gets more complicated than that, because X is calculated separately for each Land (of which 16 exist), then all are added together
21:31:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that means party A can get "overhang mandates" from land 1, and party B can get some from land 2
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21:34:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the most extreme case: a party gets all direct mandates, but does not take part in the proportional vote at all, then you have X=299, thus you get 3*299 members ;)
21:35:01 <OwenS> Apparently people have had to be turned away at polling stations because they were still queuing at the deadline
21:40:35 <SmatZ> that's a pity when you leave the office at 18:00 and the polling station closes one hour later
21:40:46 <SmatZ> especially when there are more people in that situation
21:41:33 <OwenS> SmatZ: They close at 2200
21:41:34 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: they closed at 22:00 local time
21:41:46 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany, elections must be on sundays
21:41:55 <OwenS> And they opened up early in the morning
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21:43:13 <OwenS> Our first count is supposed to be coming back in about 7 minutes
21:43:24 <OwenS> (That is, count from the first constituency)
21:43:27 <SmatZ> that's what I heard in local news... that many people were leaving the office just a hour before the polling station closes
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21:43:56 <OwenS> SmatZ: If they left work at 2100h (And thats a late shift). presumably they started late enough to vote on the morning
21:46:38 <Eddi|zuHause> "Wer in Stalingrad war, wird von Playstation 3 enttäuscht sein."
21:46:38 <Terkhen> andythenorth: why is the production of all farms in FIRS so low? :/
21:46:52 <andythenorth> Terkhen: in recent nightlies?
21:47:26 <andythenorth> I find it looks ridiculous to route *lots* of trucks to a farm, or large trains
21:47:50 <andythenorth> I'm going to add location code to make farms cluster near each other though
21:47:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the number of farms should then be increased
21:48:09 <Terkhen> I agree, but I barely can route two trucks to a farm now
21:48:19 <andythenorth> deliver farm supplies :P
21:49:00 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's a barley farm ;)
21:49:10 <andythenorth> Terkhen: it would be a handy piece of play testing if you could try and max production with FMSP
21:49:27 <andythenorth> I think it should get to about 300t max, but testing takes time :)
21:49:27 <Eddi|zuHause> (please tell me that joke was bad.)
21:51:45 * andythenorth makes more industry layouts
21:51:55 <andythenorth> lots to do before I can play a test game :|
21:53:06 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: That joke was bad.
21:55:14 <Terkhen> I don't get it... probably because I don't know what is a barley
21:56:23 <PeterT> Terkhen: Hey, remember how I was going to Spain and was stuck in Ireland because of the volcano?
21:56:31 <planetmaker> Terkhen: an alcoholic beverage
21:56:36 <PeterT> well, the tour company gave me a free trip to Spain
21:57:12 <Terkhen> hmm.. I did not know you got stuck because of the volcano
21:57:38 <Terkhen> that's nice of them, I have some friends that got no compensations
21:58:02 <PeterT> well, it's not like they lose money or anything
21:58:09 <PeterT> they just don't make as big of a profit off me
21:58:20 <PeterT> it is a company called "EF Tours"
22:05:00 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: to my knowledge, "barley" = "Gerste"
22:05:48 <andythenorth> had a forums pm from someone offering FIRS german translation
22:05:49 <Eddi|zuHause> particularly well known as basic ingredience of beer
22:05:53 <andythenorth> who was working on that?
22:07:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought planetmaker once wanted to do that?
22:08:08 <andythenorth> nighthawk ?? was doing it
22:08:42 <planetmaker> yes, I did the existing but currently not used and out-dated translation
22:08:59 <planetmaker> Sure enough I *could* do a new one, but I won't fight for it, if there's another translator :-)
22:09:05 <PeterT> is there away to dump the console/log into a text file?
22:09:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i once had a list of german cargo names, but i have no idea how to properly translate "supplies"
22:09:58 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: yes, start with "openttd 2>log.txt"
22:10:12 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I think it was nighthawk, yes
22:10:52 <andythenorth> well now lots of us have that information :)
22:10:58 <andythenorth> so we're all to blame if I forget
22:13:31 <PeterT> Eddi|zuHause: what about on Windows?
22:13:54 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: i don't know if windows supports 2>
22:14:06 <Eddi|zuHause> but if at all, it must be converted to a console app first
22:14:15 <PeterT> yes, that's what yorick said
22:14:40 * andythenorth wonders what layouts to add next
22:14:54 <OwenS> Interestingly, some of our 650 seats are never filled
22:15:32 * SmatZ would gladly accept some of those unused
22:16:57 <OwenS> Sinn Fein MPs refuse to swear allegance to the queen :p
22:18:19 <OwenS> SmatZ: They're Irish Republicans
22:18:25 <OwenS> i.e. they want to be part of Ireland not the UK
22:18:44 <SmatZ> I mean, really interesting
22:18:59 <SmatZ> I wouldn't expect that in GB
22:19:14 <OwenS> The irony is that if someone were to propose to give NI to Eire, then they couldn't vote for it :p
22:21:04 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: JostVice was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 6 days, 9 hours, 21 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <JostVice> I already have two platforms in the stations, and a section with double track, what sygnals should i put in that section and in the track? I guess normal two way block signals in the whole track, and entry presignals and exit signals ?
22:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> someone was talking on-topic here? how dare he!
22:22:27 <andythenorth> @seen the_answers
22:22:27 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: I have not seen the_answers.
22:27:15 <yorick> what's gonna be special for r20000
22:27:25 <OwenS> XD Nice to hear the BNP candidate getting booed
22:27:40 <andythenorth> yorick: hovercraft on land
22:28:00 <yorick> andythenorth: maybe we get tomatoes
22:32:12 <DorpsGek> yorick: Invalid arguments for svn.
22:32:24 <DorpsGek> PeterT: Invalid arguments for _commit.
22:32:47 <yorick> (svn r15027) -Merge: tomatos and bananas left to be, here is NoAI for all to see.
22:32:50 <yorick> we already got bananas
22:34:00 <peter1138> i grew them in my garden
22:42:22 <Eddi|zuHause> what a lovely fellow.
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23:09:46 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... google changed the layout?
23:10:36 <PeterT> Eddi|zuHause: yes, it looks awful
23:12:04 <OwenS> Only in the UK elections... Could a polling station have to call in the bomb squad
23:12:40 <OwenS> One of the Northern Ireland counts has had a bomb threat
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continue to next day ⏵
