IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-05-05
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00:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... if we rescale the height level legend to fixed heights, we need as next step more height levels to create actual mountains (4000m == 160 levels at 25m per level))
00:08:56 <Eddi|zuHause> preferably with additional steep slopes...
00:11:29 <__ln__> actual mountains will take huge areas of map space
00:23:41 <fjb> Hm, so make more and smaller tiles, bigger houses etc., just rescale everything. :-)
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01:09:31 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that's why you need steeper slopes
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07:54:40 <planetmaker> good morning folks
07:55:15 <KingRobot> I posted another patch on that cursor bug if you want to take a look
07:56:29 <KingRobot> It's not a final fix because it causes some problems the other way around (making the cursor disappear when it shouldn't), but I need to know if it fixes the issue on your end.
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07:56:46 <KingRobot> If it does, I'll clean it up and make it fix both problems.
07:56:49 <planetmaker> I haven't tested your (1st) patch under 10.4
07:57:02 <planetmaker> And yes, you're right it's most probably two completely different issues
07:58:39 <planetmaker> with a bit more time at hand another day I might test on 10.4. It's on my external HD
07:59:22 <KingRobot> Do you have time to see if patch #2 fixes the issue you described?
08:03:24 <KingRobot> Alright. Don't worry about 10.4. If this is good, I'll make them both work together and then we can test on 10.4
08:03:48 <planetmaker> works perfectly. I added a comment to FS
08:03:59 <planetmaker> what systems can you test on?
08:05:25 <KingRobot> I have a MBP and an MB, both on 10.6.3, and a install of 10.5.8 that's not up and running right now. Sadly no PPC. I wish I had a PPC for testing some of my products.
08:06:07 <KingRobot> I had a G4 but it died a few months back and I haven't been able to replace it yet.
08:06:43 <KingRobot> You're not a mac person, are you?
08:07:03 <planetmaker> define 'mac person' ;-)
08:07:40 <KingRobot> Someone who's used them for 10+ years or at least knows their history to that extent
08:07:43 <planetmaker> But no, I didn't study the past architectures. So I guess they were still with PPC back then
08:07:53 <KingRobot> G3 G4 G5 were all PowerPC.
08:07:55 <planetmaker> No, I didn't use them that long
08:08:20 <KingRobot> They switched to Intel after the G5
08:08:56 <planetmaker> I know that they switched ;-)
08:08:57 <peter1138> hurr, told exchange imap to require ssl and removed the non-ssl port
08:09:00 <peter1138> and ... it ignores it
08:09:28 <planetmaker> I guess I have one of the first intel macbooks
08:13:58 <planetmaker> KingRobot: what problems do you expect in windowed mode?
08:14:30 <KingRobot> The cursor state isn't being set properly
08:14:58 <KingRobot> So for some reason, it doesn't unhide the cursor sometimes when coming outside the window
08:15:28 <planetmaker> hm, doesn't sound good either
08:16:01 <KingRobot> The whole thing should be reworked to be event based (triggered by entering or exiting the view window) rather than updated every time there is a mouse movement
08:17:05 <KingRobot> Actually I don't think it will be too bad.
08:17:07 <planetmaker> well only thing I can say it works here and now
08:17:52 <KingRobot> Did you see the notes on the MIDI crash?
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08:18:20 <planetmaker> yes, I saw that. Not sure what to do about it though
08:19:15 <KingRobot> Yeah, I wasn't either.
08:19:40 <KingRobot> Although I was surprised to see that the file cause no problems under windows and linux
08:20:24 <Noldo> is the corrupt file from the original TTD files?
08:20:25 <KingRobot> Several of the MIDI editors I tried to open the file with choked completely and wouldn't even open it.
08:20:48 <KingRobot> I think it's from the new sound set
08:20:59 <KingRobot> LittleBlueBoxCar or something like that
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08:28:44 <planetmaker> yes, it's OpenMSX
08:29:09 <planetmaker> Well, I can ask the artist to revise that song and (temporarily) remove it from OpenMSX.
08:29:20 <planetmaker> It's not something which I'm entirely happy with either, though
08:29:24 <planetmaker> It's a nice song ;-)
08:34:12 <Rubidium> so let is be caused by OpenMSX; it shouldn't crash on what is considered an invalid midi file
08:36:14 <planetmaker> yes, that's why I'm undecided on what to do :-)
08:39:05 * Alberth wonders how many NewGRFs would survive if OpenTTD used the removal policy
08:40:17 <Rubidium> almost none, cause removing NewGRFs can break OpenTTD
08:43:09 <planetmaker> Alberth, I meant removing as in fixing. And... NewGRF kinda do that usually :-)
08:43:27 <planetmaker> well... not usually but sometimes :-P
09:03:25 <peter1138> men, ladies and dihedrals
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10:45:22 * dihedral had an old nickname come back to mind he had vor yorick some time ago - but does not think yorick likes it ^^
10:46:47 <peter1138> lobster's quit message?
10:47:18 <dihedral> what was lobsters quit message?
10:48:24 <yorick> something with vaginas
10:48:29 <peter1138> something about a vagina
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11:06:49 <dihedral> rdns finaly got fixed (on the side of the hoster)
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14:35:55 <Belugas> Hello to you two both :)
14:38:58 <dihedral> "hello to you, too, you two" :-P
14:53:48 <Eddi|zuHause> "hello to U2, you two and you, too"
14:55:54 <__ln__> "hello to U2, you to and you, too, on youtube"
14:56:25 <dihedral> "hello to you two, you two, too, and you two: fuck off"
15:12:20 <planetmaker> whom do you do? ;-)
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15:36:46 <Newbie> How can I join a OpenTTD server?
15:36:57 <planetmaker> multiplayer -> join server
15:37:14 <Newbie> Any reason for the game to just, bomb out?
15:37:26 <planetmaker> those with a green dot are those where you meet all the requirements (correct version, correct newgrfs)
15:37:34 <planetmaker> define "bomb out"
15:38:24 <Newbie> when I click "Multiplayer", the game waits and the the screen goes black
15:39:10 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
15:39:18 <planetmaker> ^ you made sure that the ports are open?
15:39:43 <Mazur> Well, the Ruby port is open. Want a glass?
15:39:45 <planetmaker> and 3978 if you want content download?
15:40:00 <planetmaker> Mazur, yes please.
15:40:09 <Newbie> I am really new to OpenTTD, so no
15:40:14 <planetmaker> a good port is nothing to neglect :-P
15:40:33 <planetmaker> Newbie, that's a setting of your operating system and /or your firewall and router
15:42:08 <Newbie> I can't manage to view any servers
15:43:22 <glx> maybe your ISP filters UDP
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16:57:14 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19761 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] Vehicle var 43 missed AI information in purchase list.
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17:26:42 <argkde4> i've a windows installation of 1.0.1, competitors are set to 0 yet there are two competitors. is this a bug or could it be a setup problem?
17:29:26 <SmatZ> argkde4: "stop_ai 1" and "stop_ai 2" could help
17:29:44 <SmatZ> competitors won't disappear when you lower their number after they started
17:30:19 <argkde4> SmatZ: the number of competitors was set to 0 before the game was started
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17:31:02 <frosch123> did you modifiy the difficulty settings afterwards?
17:31:53 <frosch123> i.e. setting a certain difficulty setting also sets a specific number of ais, overwriting previous settings in the ai configuration
17:33:41 <argkde4> SmatZ: i get "WARNING: Company is not controlled by an AI."
17:34:01 <argkde4> oh, for 1. for 2 it told me it deleted it
17:34:37 <argkde4> SmatZ: ok, so there was no 1, but 2 and 3 were present
17:34:52 <frosch123> likey 1 is your company :)
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17:36:03 <argkde4> frosch123: the number of AIs were frobbed after they were noticed, but nothing had been touched in the difficulty window until then
17:36:24 <Alberth> you started by loading a game?
17:36:36 <argkde4> Alberth: no, it was a new game
17:45:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19762 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:45:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: catalan - 3 changes by arnau
17:45:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_
17:45:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: french - 3 changes by glx
17:45:51 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: german - 3 changes by planetmaker
17:45:51 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: greek - 16 changes by fumantsu
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18:42:35 * andythenorth decides to measure the distance to work in meters
18:42:44 <andythenorth> because that's the official UK system
18:44:51 <fjb> It is the only useful system.
18:49:17 <Sacro> andythenorth: yards kthx
18:51:05 * andythenorth has solved the hovercraft problem
18:51:15 <andythenorth> which I'm sure is headline news for all viewers of this channel :P
18:52:14 <Prof_Frink> Can it be refitted to carry eels?
18:53:51 <andythenorth> Prof_Frink: yes it can
18:53:56 <andythenorth> have you defined eels?
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19:00:13 <andythenorth> eels, salamanders, lignite ore, photons, small figurines. The Porcupine hovercraft can carry them all.
19:00:20 <andythenorth> Except for passengers. Can't carry passengers.
19:02:21 <argkde4> what does it mean when the couplings between cars in the All Trains list flash red?
19:02:56 <Sacro> andythenorth: even porcupines?
19:04:17 <andythenorth> even porcupines.
19:04:25 <andythenorth> porcupines != passengers
19:04:30 <andythenorth> therefore they are allowed.
19:04:37 <andythenorth> no passengers though
19:06:15 <Sacro> what about a passenger disguised as a procupine
19:06:50 <Prof_Frink> What about a porcupine disguised as a passenger?
19:16:12 <argkde4> is there a way to debug a "train has invalid length" error?
19:16:52 <SmatZ> argkde4: download missing grfs
19:17:17 <argkde4> SmatZ: how do i tell if they're missing?
19:17:33 <andythenorth> Prof_Frink, Sacro I have no good answer to those questions :P Invent whatever answer makes you happy
19:17:40 <Sacro> argkde4: by proving the opposite
19:18:02 <argkde4> well, all the listed grfs are green, if thats proof
19:18:05 <SmatZ> argkde4: for example, check console output
19:18:18 <SmatZ> or open newgrf list and find "red dots" :-p
19:18:29 <SmatZ> or open in-game console, and type "gamelog"
19:18:48 <SmatZ> if there is any "Removed NewGRF" item, try to download it
19:18:58 <SmatZ> but it's possible it is too late for that
19:19:15 <frosch123> it can also be just the newgrf's fault. which newgrf causes it?
19:20:16 <argkde4> is there a way to get stuff from the console into the clipboard?
19:21:27 <andythenorth> what is the prevailing wind direction in OpenTTD?
19:22:04 <SmatZ> andythenorth: the same as in TTD
19:22:04 <argkde4> it says it removed 44440302 north american renewal set 2.03/nars2w.grf and moved 4444f000 (oldwagons-newcargos.grf) up 5 places
19:22:32 <SmatZ> "it" doesn't move anything 5 places up
19:23:16 <SmatZ> if someone removed a newgrf, it's likely trains from that GRF will be broken
19:23:19 <andythenorth> what is the prevailing wind direction in TTD?
19:23:25 <SmatZ> also, there's a warning for that
19:23:28 <argkde4> it says changed, past tense
19:23:32 * andythenorth thinks "probably same as OpenTTD" :|
19:24:11 <frosch123> andythenorth: compare trains smoke, with airport's wind sleeve, with oilrig flame, ...
19:24:26 <andythenorth> no prevailing wind direction :P
19:24:41 <frosch123> oh, and bubblegenbubbles
19:25:14 * andythenorth has various evil-ish ideas regarding vehicle speed
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19:25:23 <frosch123> andythenorth: windless, and freezing cold
19:25:39 <frosch123> the wind sleeve is frozen
19:26:07 <andythenorth> I don't suppose any of you will commit a string change to trunk for me: "Max speed" or "Design speed" :P
19:26:26 <andythenorth> in resp. of me having some dumb ideas about fooling with speeds
19:26:39 <andythenorth> "Intended service speed"
19:26:45 <argkde4> SmatZ: i don't get what you're saying about "someone" having to do this. these are the messages i get when i load the game
19:26:57 <frosch123> andythenorth: you can add extra rows to the purchase list
19:27:12 <frosch123> aren't you doing that already?
19:27:43 <andythenorth> but apparently it's unsatisfactory when I start fooling with speeds
19:27:50 <SmatZ> argkde4: can you post me the savegame somehow?
19:28:07 <andythenorth> I was thinking about something evil for hovercraft speed, which led me to thinking about something good for sailing ship speeds
19:31:32 <argkde4> SmatZ: the origin of this file is a bit odd.. it came from a windows machine running 1.0.1, but i only have 1.0.0 here on debian. so i have the original game and one i saved with 1.0.0. both of them complain on load, though, in both .0 and .1
19:31:39 <argkde4> SmatZ: so which one do you want?
19:32:19 <SmatZ> argkde4: the more recent
19:32:28 <argkde4> SmatZ: heh... by date or version?
19:35:39 <argkde4> (thats not actually my save, i'm just a consultant here :)
19:36:23 <SmatZ> argkde4: apparently, someone DID MANUALLY remove nars2w.grf
19:36:37 <SmatZ> he received a warning that this may cause game problems/crashes
19:36:40 <SmatZ> and ignored the warning
19:37:07 <argkde4> so without nars2w the train is too long?
19:37:33 <SmatZ> DO NOT REMOVE GRFS IN RUNNING GAME
19:39:56 <argkde4> SmatZ: ok.. is that game pooched now, or will it be ok with train 3 removed?
19:41:47 <frosch123> if you get train 3 (and all others affected) into a depot before the game crashes, you might have luck to continue afterwards
19:42:06 <argkde4> does it list all affected trains with their own popups, or just the first one?
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19:42:59 <argkde4> and once it arrives at the depot, do what with it?
19:44:21 * andythenorth finds a very exciting thread about logging trucks + railroads
19:44:30 <frosch123> maybe readd nars2 then
19:45:04 <frosch123> but that depends whether you have "support for multiple engines sets" enabled
19:45:36 <frosch123> but first get all trains into a depot
19:46:33 * andythenorth contemplates an industry newgrf just for logging
19:46:52 <SmatZ> "multiple engines setts" is disabled
19:47:13 <frosch123> is there another engine grf loaded?
19:48:14 <frosch123> well, then, argkde4, get al trains into a depot, make them stop there. and then continue playing
19:48:56 <SmatZ> probably only Train3 needs sending to depot
19:49:45 <argkde4> ok, so he's made it to 1981 without sending train 3 to the depot.. all the rest of the trains have been converted to electric
19:50:51 <argkde4> and i take it that it shouldn't have been able to have all those grfs loaded without "support for multiple engines sets" enabled?
19:51:50 <andythenorth> tree-length logs, scrap wood, lumber, pulp, paper, gravel, machinery, water, food, fuel, workers, chemicals, creosote
19:51:51 <SmatZ> mixing engine sets without having "support multiple engine sets" enabled can result in strange errors
19:52:06 <andythenorth> any other logging cargos?
19:52:13 <frosch123> the engines overwrite each other, the last one wins
19:53:12 <Alberth> andythenorth: 'workers' usually need a nice comortable passenger wagon, I don't see how that classifies as logging cargo :)
19:53:33 <frosch123> so one set might define a engine with a tender, and some other grf overwrites the tender with a maglev, or the engine with a wagon, or what soever
19:54:06 <andythenorth> environmentalists!
19:54:21 <andythenorth> equipment thieves
19:54:54 <Alberth> heli copters for lifiting wood out of the forest
19:55:00 <argkde4> and forest fires to go with them?
19:55:39 <Alberth> double cargo! forest->water a tree, water->forest water for fire extinguishing
19:56:24 <andythenorth> ah it would be a nice chain :)
19:56:50 * andythenorth adds it to the list of things that might happen 'one day'
19:59:19 <argkde4> SmatZ: frosch123: thanks for the help, he's decided to continue playing that game in spite of the potential for crashing
20:00:59 <andythenorth> Steel mill industry chain!
20:01:44 <andythenorth> Coal, coke, iron ore, scrap metal, slag, equipment, steel
20:02:41 <frosch123> yeah, add a train transporting liquid steel from the steelmill to the roller plant. if it breaks down or drives too long, wagon capacity reduces to zero :p
20:04:52 <Alberth> and it becomes scrap steel :)
20:05:04 <andythenorth> I can probably measure days in transit
20:05:12 <andythenorth> but I dunno if I can reset a wagon's cargo :P
20:05:18 <andythenorth> or change the capacity without visiting a depot
20:06:03 <frosch123> you also have no persistant storage in a wagon, everything is reset in depot
20:06:15 <andythenorth> I keep forgetting that :P
20:06:22 <andythenorth> I'm in a world of industry code
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20:15:21 * andythenorth thinks of an unusual vehicle: hot metal 'torpedo' car hauled by front loader
20:16:57 <SmatZ> andythenorth: the link doesn't work
20:17:39 <SmatZ> unknown host heavyequipmentforums.com
20:17:48 <andythenorth> hmm they have dns trouble sometimes
20:18:00 <Terkhen> it is... very unusual
20:18:50 * andythenorth wonders where ship movement code is
20:19:01 <Rubidium> andythenorth: aren't those (primarily) used for transporting molten steel between locations in the same plant?
20:19:09 <frosch123> hmm, liquid steel in ship?
20:19:21 <Rubidium> i.e. it's pointless to transport them over "openttd" rail
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20:20:22 <andythenorth> Rubidium: if 'blast furnace' was one industry and 'rolling mill' was another then there would be a point....
20:20:49 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: actually, it's "too" realistic. it doesn't fit within the game concept
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20:21:26 <Terkhen> that's a lot of micromanaging
20:21:33 <andythenorth> it fits in a 'steel industry' newgrf :P
20:21:52 <andythenorth> I'm not proposing to code that though. I'm just fooling around.
20:22:16 <andythenorth> meanwhile, what makes a tile TRANSPORT_WATER
20:22:46 <Rubidium> andythenorth: nothing makes a tile TRANSPORT_WATER
20:23:32 <Rubidium> you can only have transport of TRANSPORT_WATER on a tile and even TRANSPORT_RAIL and TRANSPORT_WATER on the same tile
20:23:47 <Rubidium> (not talking about aqueducts here)
20:24:26 <frosch123> but there are only 4 of those tiles
20:24:34 * andythenorth wants to fool around and is looking for a way to make all tiles TRANSPORT_WATER....
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20:27:17 <Rubidium> and always return a non TRACKBIT_NONE track status when TRANSPORT_WATER is requested
20:27:20 <frosch123> [22:19] <Rubidium> andythenorth: aren't those (primarily) used for transporting molten steel between locations in the same plant? <- actually ~20 km distance are normal
20:27:54 <Rubidium> frosch123: so less than 1/30th of a tile
20:28:03 <andythenorth> every time I try and hack the game I run smack bang into my lack of proper programming understanding :P
20:28:20 <peter1138> or 400 tiles, depending on which scale you're using :)
20:28:22 <andythenorth> I can read the syntax fine, but my brain doesn't do the logic properly
20:28:45 <Rubidium> andythenorth: only problem you'll get into is that... well the ship pathfinder will go crazy
20:29:05 <andythenorth> among other things...I wondered how it would cope with slopes
20:29:31 <frosch123> andythenorth: and you should make sure you to not make the map border traversable, or ships will fall of the plate
20:29:54 <andythenorth> this was a hovercraft-related project :)
20:30:05 <frosch123> [22:29] <andythenorth> among other things...I wondered how it would cope with slopes <- just as the lock does
20:30:15 <argkde4> the edges don't wrap around? thats no fun
20:30:36 <Rubidium> andythenorth: those stink enormously
20:30:48 * andythenorth wonders if it's easier to make all tiles TRANSPORT_WATER or to make ship pathfinder ignore tile type
20:33:49 <frosch123> GetTileTrackStatus <- try adding a "if (mode == TRANSPORT_WATER) return CombineTrackStatus(TRACKDIR_BIT_MASK, TRACKDIR_BIT_NONE);"
20:34:39 <frosch123> unless the pathfinder check for explicit tiletypes (they usually do for penalties, but maybe not for ships), that might be enough
20:38:38 <frosch123> so, if trains crash road vehicles at level crossing without noticing, can then overcraft crash trains without noticing?
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20:39:20 <andythenorth> large hovercraft will cross obstacles several meters high...
20:39:31 <frosch123> try ttrs buildings then
20:39:38 <andythenorth> or several feet, for those in the uk :P
20:39:51 * andythenorth blows up the game :P
20:40:27 <frosch123> why do they measure height in feet? isn't a foot more long than high?
20:40:54 *** murr5y is now known as murr4y
20:41:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe add an " && IsValidTile(tile)" to the if
20:41:44 <peter1138> just say "Yes" to the pathfinder
20:41:51 <peter1138> let all vehicles travel on any tile :D
20:42:16 <andythenorth> partial win, partial fail :)
20:43:39 <andythenorth> the error says I should send information to the developers. who would that be in this case :P
20:44:47 <andythenorth> Jolteon: you coded hovercraft on land?
20:47:09 <andythenorth> frosch123: I tried && IsValidTile(tile), still blows up :)
20:47:48 <frosch123> then compile without assertions
20:48:17 <Terkhen> I just tried too: segfault
20:48:46 <frosch123> oh, segfault :o i expected some assert due to wrong tiletype
20:49:55 <andythenorth> well it makes a change from crashes due to fooling with a string code in nfo
20:53:00 <frosch123> VehicleEnterTile <- hmm, so it also needs some work there
20:55:22 <frosch123> if (_tile_type_procs[GetTileType(tile)]->vehicle_enter_tile_proc == NULL) return VETSB_CONTINUE; <- andythenorth: add that line to VehicleEnterTile
20:57:36 <frosch123> hmm, ships have quite a hard time to enter the depot with that patch though :p
20:58:42 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it doesn't hover 3m above ground :p
20:59:03 <Eddi|zuHause> (re: hovercraft and train)
20:59:20 <frosch123> oh, it still crashes, but it took some time to
21:02:51 <andythenorth> frosch123: I find that amusing
21:03:03 <andythenorth> resp. hovercraft on land (not the crash)
21:03:39 <frosch123> i used a regular cargo ship, no hovercraft was available
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