IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-05-07
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00:01:52 <PeterT> bit late, andythenorth
00:02:21 <PeterT> andythenorth: are you waiting for the polling results too?
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00:49:14 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe one of you guys can explain this "swing" figure to me that they are constantly talking about?
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07:09:34 <dihedral> TrueBrain: what's with piwik
07:13:49 <dihedral> never mentioned a thing ^^
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08:24:36 <planetmaker> moin dihedral :-)
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08:57:01 <Eddi|zuHause> am i the only person in the world who finds it ironic that a "conservative" party is rooting for "change"?
08:58:16 <Terkhen> maybe they mean changing back
09:09:29 <Rubidium> Terkhen: nah, they just want to conserve their money, i.e. not spend it regulating stuff and letting the poorer people pay the bill once that backfires
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09:11:24 <Eddi|zuHause> wtf is a "Error 406 - Der Browser akzeptiert den MIME-Typ der Seite nicht."?!?
09:11:27 <Terkhen> every party does the latter part here :P
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09:13:38 <TrueBrain> time to update openttd.org certificates ...
09:19:44 <TrueBrain> haha, stupid firefox refuses to fetch the new certificate .. lol
09:20:42 <TrueBrain> k; except your browser to nag about a new certificate :)
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09:21:46 <lennard> pssh, you guys failed to do that ahead of time? :P
09:23:58 <TrueBrain> the certificates were about to expire in 15 days, so it is plenty ahead of time
09:24:52 <peter1138> not that i access anything via https
09:25:50 <TrueBrain> your openttd.org email! :p
09:27:23 <TrueBrain> well, that is about all we use the certificates for :p
09:28:03 <TrueBrain> owh, it has been the 5th not? I should validate all dns queries, see any of our system use too old shit :p
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09:31:55 * peter1138 deletes all the mail in there
09:31:59 <peter1138> it's all junk anyway
09:40:55 <Ammler> can't be, openttd.org has a good spam filter :-)
09:46:34 <TrueBrain> not good enough, even more at this moment ... a spam network bypasses most methods of detection :(
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10:43:44 <dashing> does someone have any screenshots of massive stations ?
10:44:26 <dashing> building enormous stations that service a huge amount of trains is my "thing", but i seem to have reached a point where i cant get them any more effective
10:45:29 <yorick> dashing: presignal bypass layout?
10:45:35 <planetmaker> dashing, look through the #openttdcoop public server archive
10:45:57 <dashing> i have looked through about 40 games
10:46:04 <dashing> none have the size/effectiveness i need
10:46:34 <dashing> my goal is to get every primary resource of 1 type on 1k x 1k maps sent to 1 station
10:46:40 <planetmaker> I doubt that you get them really more effective than the most efficient ones found in those games ;-)
10:46:56 <planetmaker> dashing, yes, so? We've done it multiple times
10:47:23 <planetmaker> though I'd measure it on the train count, not the map size
10:47:53 <dashing> im at 500 640 km/h trains atm
10:47:55 <planetmaker> trains per time would be better, cargo delivered probably even better
10:48:51 <planetmaker> psg #91 has a single station with a similar amount, 550 dropping, 200 picking up stuff
10:49:01 <planetmaker> and it's quite small tbh
10:49:17 <planetmaker> (yes, it's pre-signal bypass ;-) )
10:50:02 <dashing> yeah the psg's have stations that service more trains, but they arent of the "type" i am looking to build
10:50:05 <planetmaker> or psg176. We deliver there 100k units of wood monthly to the central station(s)
10:50:22 <dashing> perhaps the design type i went for simply cap out at an amount of trains no matter how big i make the station
10:50:34 <dashing> the game with 3500 trains ?
10:50:45 <planetmaker> well, you haven't shown any of your designs so far.
10:51:48 <dashing> i ave made a screenshot of it
10:51:52 <dashing> can i upload it here somehow ?
10:52:10 <planetmaker> img.openttdcoop.org
10:53:51 <planetmaker> my guess: you have two incoming and two outgoing tracks
10:54:04 <planetmaker> then the maximum amount of station tracks you can service is about ~14
10:54:21 <planetmaker> you limit is not the stations but the incoming / outgoing track count
10:55:02 <dashing> i have a 2 track mainline that splits into 6 a bit further north
10:55:12 <planetmaker> (given the train length which you show in the screen)
10:55:15 <dashing> with balancers to alternate each mainline track into 3 tracks
10:55:25 <planetmaker> dashing, it doesn't matter
10:55:31 <planetmaker> the main lines are your limits
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10:55:37 <planetmaker> They can only give you so many trains per unit time
10:55:51 <planetmaker> irrespective of how you balance it in front of the station
10:56:32 <planetmaker> Even if "14" is off by a few tracks, it doesn't matter ;-)
10:56:51 <planetmaker> a good rule of thumb is always 7 station tracks per fully loaded main line
10:56:53 <dashing> my current game have train length of 14, and i increased the straight stretches in front of the station to 7 tiles, and the exits to 7, but its not really workout out
10:57:11 <planetmaker> dashing, I'm not talking about entry / exit layouts
10:57:42 <planetmaker> And if you have a train length of 14 (tiles? wagons?) - the longer the less station track you need
10:58:05 <dashing> 12 wagons and dual engine
10:58:09 <planetmaker> (for me train length is in tiles :-P )
10:58:16 <planetmaker> yeah, so train length 6
10:59:33 <dashing> so basically i need more mainlines
11:00:01 <dashing> im trying to keep my stations in 1 long line as per my screenshot
11:00:08 <planetmaker> look at your main line: if both main lines have one train after the other - then not more can come in however you design the station
11:00:18 <dashing> i have seen some pg stations that are very dislocated, and im not a huge fan of those
11:00:24 <dashing> tho i can see how they are more effective
11:00:45 <planetmaker> your exits are slow and jammy for loaded stations
11:01:04 <dashing> both main lines see a lot of traffic, id say 3-4 tiles between each train
11:01:07 <planetmaker> apply the same scheme as to the entry and you'll gain through-put
11:01:18 <planetmaker> dashing, yes, that's as dense as you can get
11:01:32 <planetmaker> *as dense as the mainline can get
11:01:38 <planetmaker> no insult intended ;-)
11:02:11 <dashing> i tried mirroring the entry to the exit
11:02:22 <dashing> but had very little control of which mainline they exited to
11:02:28 <dashing> ideally id get every other train to each line
11:02:34 <dashing> but that didnt happen
11:02:39 <planetmaker> do you need control where they go?
11:03:02 <planetmaker> if well designed they'll balance themselves
11:03:11 <dashing> not close to the station no, they get sent off to sidelines quite a distance away
11:03:14 <planetmaker> good exits are more difficult though than good entries
11:06:47 <planetmaker> an exit is basically the task to distribute n -> m with n >> m
11:06:52 <planetmaker> while the entry is the reverse
11:09:19 <dashing> lol the theme park in #96 is great
11:10:45 <planetmaker> ah yes, that game also has BIG stations
11:11:09 <dashing> oh crud you said 91, i downloaded 95
11:12:18 <planetmaker> of course I advertize #91 only as I built that one :-P
11:12:55 <dashing> it crashes when i try to open it
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11:16:29 <planetmaker> hm, probably you got a new industrial stations newgrf.
11:16:51 <planetmaker> That's incompatible with the older one used there. Biggest newgrf blunder which is out there, if you ask me
11:17:08 <dashing> i dont have any grfs on by default
11:17:08 <planetmaker> (as it is NOT marked incompatible)
11:17:20 <dashing> but i suppose if i have a newer version it tries to load that ?
11:17:22 <planetmaker> dashing, newgrf are part of a game
11:17:31 <planetmaker> dashing, or none, I don't know.
11:17:40 <planetmaker> depends upon what you have at all
11:18:10 <planetmaker> you'll need the one in the #openttdcoop newgrf pack 7.0
11:18:44 <TrueBrain> @kick SirSquidness enough already
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11:19:46 <SirSquidness> friend grabbed my phone while I got up for a bit
11:20:16 <planetmaker> good friends you have
11:20:27 <dashing> i have the ottdc pack but i might have installed it wrongly :p
11:20:37 <planetmaker> dashing, not necessarily.
11:20:41 <dashing> ive had it for about a month, would be embarrasing if i never actually used it :o
11:20:48 <planetmaker> The newer grfpack has also the newer ISR version
11:22:03 <SirSquidness> doesn't help he doesn't appear to know how to use irssi/ssh on s60
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11:39:26 <Ammler> he, we should really release grfpack 8.0 :-P
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11:52:32 <dihedral> Ammler: still using the grfpack?
11:52:40 <dihedral> i thought you were only using grfs from bananas now
11:53:12 <Ammler> the isr guy refuses to upload pre 0.8 versions for example
11:53:35 <Ammler> so we might never be without the pack :-(
11:54:05 <Ammler> but grfpack 0.8 is a kind of light pack
11:54:21 <Ammler> no new and without bananas grfs
11:58:50 <planetmaker> yeah... we *should* hm...
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12:34:51 <TrueBrain> I keep getting russian spam :(
12:37:11 <goblin_> i compiled openttd and the opensfx/gfx/msx under linux (kubuntu 10.04), copied the files to my ~/.openttd directy but i keep earning the error: Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt. when i start it
12:37:32 <goblin_> i copied all *.grf and the opengfx.obj file there
12:38:01 <goblin_> i ment opengfx.obg, sry
12:41:54 <theholyduck> goblin_, not that i know much but shouldnt it be ~/.openttd/data ?
12:42:48 <dashing> it is under /data on windows at least
12:43:04 <glx> and in /data it should be
12:43:33 <theholyduck> atleast i put my grfs and what not under ~/.openttd/data
12:44:31 <goblin_> it works, great thank you
12:44:51 <goblin_> it's quite a time ago since i last played so i didn't know anymore
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14:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> majority votes and its obscurity... party A has 29% of the votes, party B has 23% of the votes, yet party A recieves 5 times more seats than party B
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15:00:54 <Rubidium> yeah, that doesn't feel very democratic
15:02:40 <Belugas> same situation in here
15:03:04 <Belugas> but either way, how democratic is a system where you can speak out only once every... 4 years or so?
15:03:26 <Belugas> based on promesses most of the time you KNOW they will not fulfill...
15:04:09 <yorick> yeah switzerland is much better
15:04:37 <yorick> descisions the people make go directly into constitution
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15:28:57 <Eddi|zuHause> direct democracy also has its flaws
15:29:51 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: direct as in voting on "everything" (like California)
15:30:38 <Eddi|zuHause> like in germany in the 1920s, propositions have been put up for direct voting that would never have a chance to get through, but they were used to make a profile for small (extremist) parties
15:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> most notably the NSDAP (Nazi party)
15:31:41 <Eddi|zuHause> which rose from like 2% to 40% within a few years
15:34:23 <OwenS> The main priblem with direct voting is that the turnout for each vote tends to be quite small
15:34:46 <Eddi|zuHause> it was fairly clear that the constitution of 1919 provided "too much" democracy, and measures have been put into the 1949 (west-german) constitution to prevent that, like the abolishing of direct votes on federal level, or the 5% clause to the parliament elections
15:36:04 <yorick> israel stole your democracy :)
15:36:07 <Rubidium> OwenS: I think the biggest problem is that it ruins proper governing; anything that increases your taxes will get shot whereas everything the reduces taxes gets through regardless of whether it makes the budget work
15:36:20 <Rubidium> again, see California that's totally bankrupt because of this
15:37:00 <OwenS> The last constituency (Excepting one which had to postpone due to candidate death) has turned its result in. Finally. 20 hours later,
15:37:41 <Rubidium> oh, you can't vote for a dead person in the UK?
15:38:14 <Eddi|zuHause> they have that improved over the US :p
15:39:48 <fjb> Parties are a big problem for democracy.
15:40:02 <Eddi|zuHause> ... or afghanistan, where even dead people vote :p
15:40:23 <OwenS> Interesting. The lib dems have two conditions for a coalition with any party: 1) There must be an unbreakable pledge to hold a referrendum on reforming the voting system, 2) Gordon Brown must cease to be PM
15:40:47 <OwenS> 1 Is unacceptable to the conservatives, 2 Is unacceptable to Labour
15:40:57 <OwenS> In other words... All hell has broke loose :p
15:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> they should do it like they did in germany 5 years ago, form a "grand coalition" between the two largest parties :p
15:42:05 <Rubidium> OwenS: doesn't sound worse than say... Belgium
15:42:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Belgium, where the government breaks up like every two weeks?
15:42:41 <OwenS> Plus theres the wild cards of Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales :p
15:43:55 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: no, just about once a year
15:44:01 <Eddi|zuHause> they should split belgium and put one part to the netherlands and the other to france, making brussels a "E.U. district" like washington...
15:44:29 <Rubidium> after which then need 10 months to form a new coalition/government and 1.5 months to prepare for voting
15:44:29 <OwenS> I think Belgium may object to that :p
15:45:54 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: I prefer the term "Unholy Alliance"
15:47:45 <pugi> germany has more problems than uk...
15:47:55 <pugi> like spending billions of euros to greece <.<
15:48:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: well, it was a fairly similar situation, neither the CDU/FDP coalition nor the SPD/Green coalition had a majority, and neither of them could imagine a coalition with the left party
15:48:46 <Rubidium> pugi: any idea how many banks and pension funds would go bust if Greece bankrupts?
15:48:50 <Eddi|zuHause> pugi: spending the money is not the actual problem.
15:50:00 <pugi> the problem is that we won't get it back...
15:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> pugi: clearly you miss the big picture...
15:50:38 <Eddi|zuHause> pugi: germany's interest is its export economy
15:50:52 <Eddi|zuHause> that won't work, if the other countries are too poor to buy anything
15:51:11 <OwenS> pugi: Look at China's economy. Namely: Selling stuff to US for debt! :p
15:51:30 <pugi> heh, germany still has to pay everyone for ww2 :P
15:51:49 <goblin_> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, and thats the only interest of this f***ing land, nothing matters than working places and our export rates ...
15:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause> pugi: at least we are finally done with ww1 this year :p
15:52:05 <pugi> whatever, have to go now :D
15:53:00 <Rubidium> goblin_: so what matters for you?
15:53:15 <goblin_> the people, for example
15:53:15 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Wars are expensive in unobvious ways :p
15:54:15 <goblin_> our technology is much too high to have work for every single citizien ...
15:55:24 <Rubidium> goblin_: and yet the Polish/Slovak/etc come to Germany (well, at least the NL) to work
15:56:01 <Rubidium> so it's more that citizens don't want to do certain jobs
15:56:18 <goblin_> Rubidium: shure, but switch on the TV and listen to the Harz IV bashing ...
15:56:39 <Rubidium> although, having a paid for live by the government sounds nice
15:57:02 <goblin_> Rubidium: thats true, but i think thats not the majority
15:57:36 <goblin_> heehee, one can live of that, i don't earn much more at the moment and have quite a nice living
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15:59:03 <Rubidium> hmm, that sounds like reducing unemployment "benefits"... too much large cooperation lobbying (like everywhere in the western world)
15:59:34 <goblin_> and the numbers of eastern europeans which work as harvesting assistants (polands in or area) are declining because the difference between the german and the polish wages are getting smaller
16:00:14 <goblin_> yeah, great lobbies with too much political powers are the root of all the evil of this system %-)
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16:10:23 <Eddi|zuHause> what's now the root of the evil? too little democracy? too much democracy? the parties? the lobbies?
16:10:48 <SmatZ> load average: 15.61, 13.00, 10.35 :-/
16:11:19 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: that's probably fine, if you have a >8 core system ;)
16:14:13 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: the banks ;)
16:15:11 <Eddi|zuHause> banks are worse than standing armies [one of the US founding fathers, i think jefferson]
16:16:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that phrase is the reason why the US did not have a central bank until the 20th century, and every few years each economic crisis hit them with the full momentum
16:16:08 <goblin_> Eddi|zuHause: capitalism ;-p
16:17:03 <peter1138> "the outgaying labour government" heh
16:17:33 <Eddi|zuHause> as far as i can see, nobody is "gaying" anywhere :p
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16:33:39 <Zuu> At CBC - The National they suggested that a houng goverment wolud be good as it would force the politicans to sit down and solve the problem at hand rather than playing politics.
16:34:49 <Zuu> Though, another thing they mentioned at that show was that the party that wins the election (the show was before the election) will have to do such dramatic stuff that they will be non-electable for a generation to come. :-p
16:35:51 <Eddi|zuHause> a phrase yesterday night was: "if the government has to do such unpopular things, why not share the blame?" :p
16:36:43 <Eddi|zuHause> IMHO, in germany last period, when they had the chance to do unpopular things, they didn't do enough of these...
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16:37:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and the ones they did, hugely backfired on them
16:37:31 <Eddi|zuHause> which basically restricts to the "anti terrorist" category
16:37:56 <Eddi|zuHause> almost all of the laws they passed there, were cancelled by the constitutional court
16:42:18 <Wizzleby> wow, what kind of laws did they try to pass that they got struck down by the court?
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16:50:02 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of things... shooting down of captured airplanes, logging of internet and phone connections for 6 months, ...
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16:54:42 <__ln__> all that would be easier if BRD had migrated with DDR and not the other way round
16:55:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe overall it was like 20 rulings of that kind, but i can't find a conclusive list...
17:22:00 <Wizzleby> Eddi|zuHause: ah, well. sounds like the sort of thing that indeed would be ruled illegal. At least such rulings actually happened there ;)
17:22:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the logging of phone and internet connections is actually an EU directive
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17:45:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19764 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
17:45:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 9 changes by josesun
17:45:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: croatian - 3 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: irish - 7 changes by tem
17:45:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
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20:07:57 <FauxFaux_> Wait, not this channel.
20:09:16 <FauxFaux_> No, not this channel!
20:09:29 *** FauxFaux_ is now known as FauxFaux
20:10:05 <SmatZ> ok, not this channel :-(
20:10:26 <SmatZ> not the only true OPEN TTD channel :-(
20:11:08 <FauxFaux> Is there a ships-only coop game going on here? I think not.
20:11:17 <FauxFaux> Not true openttd enough for me.
20:11:45 <SmatZ> really? really? you are no true FauxFaux for me!
20:11:56 <Alberth> I have a sea as desktop background, does that count?
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20:19:17 <Zuu> A ships only coop game would be intresting. Mostly to see how long it would take before the server get unplayable. :-)
20:20:18 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19765 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Codechange: Apply a bit of code style and a bit of comment shuffling to CalcHeightdiff.
20:20:28 <Alberth> last person to desync wins?
20:22:31 <Rubidium> unlikely that ships cause desyncs, because they are so trivial
20:27:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19766 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Store tile height of smallmap contour legend in the LegendAndColour struct.
20:32:15 <frosch123> no, the newpaper have been writing the last 5 days about new google
20:32:30 * SmatZ should read newspapers :-/
20:32:54 <frosch123> why would that be a reason to read newspapers?
20:33:46 <SmatZ> I read Internet news at few servers, but I didn't notice any information about "new google"
20:34:10 * frosch123 also only ready internet news :)
20:34:10 <SmatZ> so it seems newspapers are more internet-oriented than online news servers
20:35:05 <berndj> what determines which of two in-range stations get the output from an industry?
20:35:37 <frosch123> berndj: station rating. the best rating gets most, the third best gets nothing
20:35:55 <berndj> i have a 10-station serving both a power station and a steel mill, and i'd like to split it so all the steel goes to only one station
20:36:19 <berndj> oh, so if i just start neglecting the steel, the mill will start sending it to the other station?
20:36:46 <SmatZ> the second station will still negatively affect industry's "transported %"
20:37:00 <SmatZ> which reminds me of one patch we (with frosch123) had a talk about...
20:37:39 <berndj> what's the (default) max size of a station? i'm guessing around 12x12?
20:38:34 <berndj> it's annoying not being able to get at the valuables that are deep in a city, when my station is as central as i could make it (and still be big), yet too far out
20:38:39 <frosch123> yup, be we still did not found a way to make it foolproof. and iirc the forums did not found any either
20:39:13 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19767 /trunk/src/ (smallmap_gui.cpp viewport.cpp viewport_func.h): -Fix [FS#3808]: Height in smallmap was different from measured heights (ChillCore).
20:41:36 <SmatZ> the problem with valuables is similiar with pax
20:42:15 <SmatZ> without cargod*st, cargo is loaded no matter what is its destination
20:42:45 <berndj> i seem to gravitate towards pax
20:43:34 <berndj> even though i'm an ultra-introvert and would prefer just to level all the towns to build mines and mills :)
20:43:44 <berndj> or is that and ultra-misanthrope
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20:50:54 <Vornicus> So, some time ago I had heard that they were trying to make passengers (and, I think, mail) packeted. Is that still a goal?
20:51:20 <Vornicus> packeted? I don't think that's the word I want. Having specific destinations.
20:51:48 <Nite_Owl> there is a patch that the user must apply for that
20:53:37 <Nite_Owl> see the development section of the forums
20:53:47 <berndj> hmm, random observation: is openttd another one of those games that for some weird reason attract many germans?
20:54:44 <KenjiE20> but it's still weird, since it was a an English conceived game
20:54:50 <SmatZ> Vornicus: those "patches" are called cargodest and cargodist
20:55:21 <berndj> same thing with freeciv: lots of germans involved (or used to be)
20:55:23 <SmatZ> berndj: as KenjiE20 :) I would say Dutchies are the majority of players
20:55:40 <KenjiE20> SmatZ: you have the same datapool though :P
20:55:43 <Vornicus> SmatZ and Nite_Owl: aha, thank you.
21:11:48 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: i'd say overproportional, but not majority
21:12:12 <Eddi|zuHause> proportion being players per total population
21:12:50 <Eddi|zuHause> berndj: open source in general has a lot of germans... take KDE for example
21:12:54 <frosch123> in that case prague also has a good chance
21:13:44 <berndj> Eddi|zuHause: stimmt! :)
21:14:34 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: I wanted to say that too :)
21:14:49 <SmatZ> then I went to wiki to see what is the population of NL
21:14:55 <SmatZ> then the wiki-spree started...
21:15:12 <berndj> ok so whoever it was who pointed out pf.wait_{one,two}way_signal: thanks! my trains aren't like naughty little kids anymore
21:16:21 * Eddi|zuHause takes that credit (probably)
21:17:32 <berndj> i have so many tabs open the favicons have disappeared :( wikipedia is the worst
21:17:33 <Eddi|zuHause> man... this game gets more and more difficult...
21:18:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i expanded too much now the bureaucracy costs kill me, my research stagnates and the outer regions are revolting...
21:19:08 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: what game are you playing?
21:19:25 <Eddi|zuHause> civ4 with "rise of mankind" mod
21:19:51 <Rubidium> then it's "that" game, not "this" game
21:20:05 <Nite_Owl> you did change it (pf.wait_{one,two}way_signal) in both the game console and the cfg file ??
21:20:07 <Eddi|zuHause> from your perspective, maybe
21:20:27 <Alberth> from the perspective of the channel :)
21:21:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is that i try to play it like vanilla civ4, but that doesn't have revolts...
21:21:36 <Nite_Owl> sorry - that last one was directed at berndj
21:21:54 * andythenorth thinks newgrf has a disproportionate number of brits
21:21:58 <Vornicus> arg. Same damn problem I always have. How the heck do I decide where to start my network?
21:22:27 <Nite_Owl> largest concentration of coal mines
21:22:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i typically start with two larger cities
21:22:37 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I never got further than civ1, so your remark doesn't mean much to me :)
21:23:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: how dare you
21:23:21 <Rubidium> Vornicus: press the right mouse button somewhere in the center of the map, then "randomly" move your mouse for a minute and start there
21:23:42 * Nite_Owl never liked Civ4 so stuck with Civ3
21:23:53 <Alberth> Vornicus: such that I can service several primary industries over the same tracks
21:24:38 <Nite_Owl> Civ3 Conquests to be specific
21:24:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't have Civ3
21:24:51 <SmatZ> after I found the way how to edit savegames, it became pretty boring :-p
21:25:08 <Eddi|zuHause> at the time that came out, i didn't have a computer capable enough
21:25:26 <kimiko> hello ^^ is there any easy way to, if at all possible, to change the properties for a NewGRF vehicle?
21:25:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i love civ4, but somehow they made religions the wrong way...
21:25:43 <Alberth> kimiko: yes, write a newgrf
21:26:13 <Nite_Owl> kimiko: after you learn NFO coding
21:26:31 <Rubidium> I'd say: maybe "shinkansen", but that probably won't make sense to anyone
21:26:58 <kimiko> Japanese bullet train?
21:27:09 <andythenorth> kimiko: it depends what newgrf it is
21:27:21 <kimiko> andythenorth: generic tram set
21:27:47 <andythenorth> in which case you could bother Zephyris about it. what do you need to change?
21:27:51 <frosch123> [23:24] <SmatZ> after I found the way how to edit savegames, it became pretty boring :-p <- year, ai players never buld cavalry, so they could be turned into nuclear rockets which could travel 255 tiles
21:28:12 <kimiko> hmm.. oh. NewGRF is a compiled file ><
21:28:16 <kimiko> then that is a no go then
21:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> kimiko: you can download grfcodec from the development page
21:28:57 <andythenorth> is it a bug fix you need or a change to suit your taste?
21:29:39 <kimiko> change to better suit my taste
21:29:59 <andythenorth> not likely that Zephyris will do it for you then :)
21:31:27 <andythenorth> so....industries that can 'expand'. Good idea or bad? (ignore the implementation details for now)
21:31:37 <SmatZ> frosch123: I cheated myself only money :)
21:32:27 <Nite_Owl> I keep forgetting names
21:32:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: bad. industries should reserve one area, and only be able to visually expand on this reserved area, showing if it is used a lot
21:32:43 <frosch123> oh, my sister always only build diplomats, and bought every city :p
21:33:21 <Eddi|zuHause> sadly, "buying" cities and units has been removed in civ4 :(
21:33:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: could lead to a lot of empty space around industries....
21:33:36 <andythenorth> i.e. tiles 'reserved' with nothing on them
21:33:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, but that is perfectly realistic ;)
21:33:54 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: err, what are you then doing with the money?
21:34:02 <frosch123> or did they remove that too?
21:34:03 <Nite_Owl> kimiko: try the extended Generic Trams & Road Vehicle Set (eGTRVS)
21:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: a) distant cities cost a hell lot of money, especially when they are on another continent
21:34:55 <Eddi|zuHause> b) surplus money can be put into research
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21:35:15 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no "60%" limit like in civ1/2
21:35:25 <kimiko> Nite_Owl: thank you, looking it up
21:36:10 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so you like the idea or not (I'm on the fence, apart from I don't fancy the work)
21:36:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if it's similar to the player headquarter development, then it might be interesting
21:37:06 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
21:37:22 <Nite_Owl> are the industries expanding due to increased production or due to the passage of time
21:37:36 <andythenorth> that is a good question
21:38:03 <andythenorth> I have limited opinions on this, as I will have to both draw and code whatever I decide :P
21:38:16 <frosch123> wouldn't they rather get smaller over time?
21:38:48 * andythenorth has been avoiding this question for a while. but players keep asking
21:39:16 <Nite_Owl> save yourself the time and effort and go with the way they are by default or make them slightly bigger by default
21:39:17 *** dashing has joined #openttd
21:39:34 <dashing> can someone give me some tips to fix up this stations exit area ?
21:39:37 <frosch123> Nite_Owl: firs industries are already huge :p
21:39:52 <andythenorth> not all of them :)
21:40:07 <Vornicus> I figure that factories etc would get larger with the amount of stuff they produce -- but would get smaller with time, too, as miniaturization technology comes in.
21:40:10 <frosch123> dashing: reduce number of platform by factor 2
21:40:14 * Eddi|zuHause still misses a 15x20 open mine :)
21:40:25 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: one day you may have such a thing
21:40:45 <frosch123> then put the signals on the other side of the junctions
21:41:00 <Vornicus> ...I would like to know why one would need /24 platforms/
21:41:14 <SmatZ> Vornicus: have you ever seen openttdcoop games?
21:41:17 <frosch123> Vornicus: so half of them stay empty :)
21:41:26 <dashing> it is servicing 500 7 length trains :/
21:41:31 * andythenorth just builds one or two platforms most places
21:41:56 <Vornicus> dashing: ...okay, how did you manage to need 500 trains?
21:42:13 <dashing> 500 is just that station :)
21:42:26 <Zuu> dashing: The amount of trains that has the station in the order list is totaly irrelevant. Its the number of trains per time unit that is of interest.
21:42:34 <dashing> i have about 1500 trains sigh
21:43:17 <Vornicus> ....that there are 17 trains /in the picture/ actually suggests that it's actually reasonably sized.
21:43:20 <Eddi|zuHause> AAH... it's an abomination...
21:43:22 <Vornicus> ...but what is that thing serving?
21:43:53 <Eddi|zuHause> it can be cut down by at least 10 platforms...
21:43:53 <kimiko> I know this is a silly question, but the greater the distance you move cargo/passengers the greater the reward?
21:44:18 <Vornicus> kimiko: correct. However the longer it takes, the smaller the reward.
21:44:19 <frosch123> kimiko: reward or reward per time?
21:44:26 <Zuu> Reward is a function of distance and travel time.
21:44:36 <kimiko> yeah, I know there's a time limit on it
21:44:47 <Vornicus> So sending your Kirby Paul all the way across the map doesn't necessarily help!
21:44:48 <dashing> its not an entirely accurate image, all those trains are empty, its a test station
21:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause> if it takes longer, you don't deliver as much...
21:44:59 <kimiko> but, moving coal ten blocks vs. fifty blocks seems to greatly impact price
21:45:01 <dashing> im planning to upgrade one of my stations
21:45:15 * andythenorth thinks "no" to mucking about with industry expansion
21:45:26 <Nite_Owl> coal is not that time sensitive a cargo
21:45:39 <kimiko> and thank you Nite_Owl: found a tram that suited my needs purrrfectly
21:45:46 <andythenorth> and also "bed time"
21:45:55 <Zuu> andythenorth: You could make an industry than expand upward.
21:46:03 <Eddi|zuHause> coal should not be time sensitive at all...
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21:46:19 <kimiko> greater speed, at the expense of an extra wagon and some 30 passengers
21:47:16 <Eddi|zuHause> trams aren't typically limited by their own capabilities...
21:47:41 <Eddi|zuHause> we need speed limits on city roads...
21:48:05 <kimiko> but I try to put them and other road vehicles in their own lanes if at all possible
21:48:11 <Eddi|zuHause> that is out of question ;)
21:48:14 * Vornicus tries to design a small ro-ro station that has a pass-through.
21:48:26 <kimiko> like, if I know I've got a bunch of cargo vehicles on the north side of town, I put the trams at the southern parts
21:48:50 <kimiko> does the positioning of the stations affect general growth of the vicinity or the city as a whole?
21:49:53 <kimiko> take it there's no way to affect how the city grow in a particular direction then
21:50:37 <Eddi|zuHause> only if you build roads in one region, and block roads in another...
21:50:43 *** Coco-Banana-Man has quit IRC
21:51:03 <Zuu> also there is the tunnel/bridge trick to make the city center closer than it really is.
21:51:11 <Nite_Owl> "Serbian Tram Set - OTTD Remix" is a personal favorite
21:52:02 <Nite_Owl> refits with added cars and nice high capacity trams
21:52:51 <Eddi|zuHause> we need the possibility to build stations over tunnel entrances, makes placing road tunnels under stations easier
21:54:42 <Nite_Owl> kimiko: turn on the 'towns build no roads' advanced option. Towns will not grow unless you put in the roads for them. More micromanagement for you but better looking towns that only grow the way you want.
21:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i never had problems with towns growing "ugly", since the "better roads" town layout...
21:56:08 <kimiko> Nite_Owl: I like the idea of that. I hate the retarded roads the towns and cities make
21:56:11 <SmatZ> "better roads" sometimes causes unused tiles in the middle of the city :-/
21:56:33 <dashing> i enabled the 3x3 road grid for cities
21:56:42 <Nite_Owl> not 'ugly' per se just more directional and sometimes more functional
21:56:44 <dashing> they look kinda artificial but at least no more weird looking roads
21:57:00 <kimiko> Nite_Owl: do you have a screenshot of the Serbian tram set? pref with a screenshot of the stats on the passenger tram
21:57:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't like grids...
21:57:34 <Nite_Owl> there is a thread about it in the graphics section
21:57:35 <kimiko> dashing: how do you get that? Advanced setting?
21:58:06 <kimiko> ... 450+ passengers.. nice o.o
21:58:37 <Vornicus> Anyway, kimiko: one of the particularly unrealistic bits of OTTD is that the most profitable way of shoveling passengers is often to simply send all of them to a single town.
21:59:47 <SmatZ> unrealism? in my OpenTTD?
22:00:25 <Nite_Owl> no specifics but you can find those out easily enough
22:00:25 <kimiko> well, I tried playin against an AI once.. and it set up a road between two cities (far from each other) with the most silly looking road layout ever, and put 50-100 busses on it
22:00:38 <Zuu> Vornicus: You could always try cargodist instead if that's something you don't like.
22:00:39 <kimiko> I got so fed up with the AI I put a train in the way to block him off..
22:00:50 <kimiko> then got even more evil and set the train to destroy his busses...
22:00:57 <kimiko> (I don't play against AI now)
22:01:03 <Zuu> Or get into the real transportation/traffic business :-p
22:03:06 <Vornicus> Zuu: right now I'm just glad to have a working build. I'm on OSX.
22:03:20 <Nite_Owl> load your vehicles grfs into a game that you never intend to play - open the available vehicle lists - open the cheat menu - use the time machine to move slowly forward in time to view what vehicles become available and when
22:03:42 <Vornicus> also that sort of situation isn't going to pop up on me today! I've built myself a scenario with only two cities in it.
22:04:05 <kimiko> Nite_Owl: I always start at 1.1.2055 >.>
22:04:42 <Nite_Owl> do you use the 'vehicles never expire' option
22:05:17 <Nite_Owl> if you do not then you miss out on some really nice older vehicles
22:05:24 <kimiko> hmm.. I did because I wanted helicopters.. but I think one of my NewGRF sets provide futuristic helicopters
22:05:52 <kimiko> and man.. oil rigs are the most annoying things ever
22:07:25 <Nite_Owl> everyone plays differently but some of the older vehicles are some of the best graphically IMHO
22:08:57 <berndj> how does one deal with the elec. rail -> monorail -> maglev transition? i find it frustrating to have to build two (or even three) networks if i don't want to do it big bang style
22:09:47 <kimiko> I only use Maglev.. my next game will not use any cargo ships if possible.. certainly no oil rigs
22:10:18 <Zuu> I usually never get to monorail.
22:10:25 <Nite_Owl> do not upgrade to monorail and maglev
22:10:39 <kimiko> I hate the mono train sound
22:11:08 <Eddi|zuHause> in the last 5 years, i only once got the transrapid...
22:11:15 <Zuu> Or I use road vehicles and don't have to deal with it in double sense. Both because road vehicles don't need to deal with it and because it's my AI that is playing, not me. :-p
22:11:35 <berndj> dashing, what's that big hole for in your screenshot?
22:11:51 <kimiko> how do you turn on 3x3 grid cities?
22:12:07 <Nite_Owl> the train set I use most often does not even include monorail and maglev
22:13:16 <Nite_Owl> advanced settings -> economy - I think
22:13:50 <berndj> if i wanted to simulate my home country i'd ask for the ability to have cape gauge tracks (that aren't compatible with standard gauge trains)
22:14:52 <kimiko> hmm.. Norwegian train sets.. that would be awesome.. but too mountainous for my taste
22:15:34 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... can iconv do "inplace" modifications of files, like sed?
22:20:12 <kimiko> just for the funsies/heck of it.. can you completely remove a city if you want to? I did it once, but the city remained with 0 population
22:20:29 <kimiko> quoting Google on this one: do no evil
22:22:10 <Nite_Owl> buy all of the land around a 0 population town to prevent it from growing again
22:22:37 <Nite_Owl> unless you have the 'build no roads' option on
22:24:02 <kimiko> do you prefer to put your airports within the city or outside (as in middle of nowhere - I saw the AI do that)?
22:25:13 <Nite_Owl> I very rarely use airports so I am no judge on that one
22:26:19 <Nite_Owl> middle of nowhere has a problem though in that they will not accept cargo
22:27:09 <kimiko> just is a pain to get the city to build around the airport
22:27:21 <kimiko> hoping that a 3x3 grid may help solve that
22:27:31 <kimiko> also going to try to use a completely flat map this time
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22:28:05 <Nite_Owl> flat map is a good way to learn
22:28:20 <kimiko> cities hate me because I tend to do a lot of landscaping
22:29:00 <Nite_Owl> take a good hard look at the screenshot section of the forums if you really want to learn a few things
22:29:06 <kimiko> but, going to experiment with different station layouts to make super efficent rail systems
22:29:27 <kimiko> what's the screenshot key again?
22:30:11 <Nite_Owl> always build your station in a town first and then connect the rails to it
22:37:27 <kimiko> I really like the style used at the north end of this station: www.is.gd/bZgdA
22:38:40 <kimiko> two to three tracks of loading/unloading, and optional waiting line just before the stations
22:44:21 <Nite_Owl> take a look at the screenshot threads - there are much better designs in there than that
22:45:51 <Nite_Owl> of course you may have to go back a few pages to find some of the best ones as they may have not posted any shots in a while
22:48:02 <Nite_Owl> need to feed - later all
22:50:28 <peter1138> ug, vlc switched to qt? :s
22:51:21 <kimiko> qt framework or quicktime?
22:51:39 <kimiko> I dislike VLC... great codec support, but horrible user interface
22:51:49 <kimiko> and I can't stand the god damn upgrade method
22:52:34 <kimiko> on the mac you have the sparkle framework that does all the upgrading for you.. but VLC just tells you there is an update and opens your web browser
23:18:53 <berndj> how do you deal with aircraft crashes? i don't want them not to crash, but it would be nice if there were some "auto replace crashed planes" feature?
23:19:16 <berndj> i can't just leave my map alone while i make supper - when i get back all the planes will be gone!
23:21:30 <SmatZ> there is a "planes do not crash" setting
23:21:41 <Vornicus> But he doesn't want them not to crash.
23:24:24 <Terkhen> if you don't want to take care of plane crashes, why do you want to have them enabled?
23:25:25 * Vornicus wishes there were a "wait till next train with shared orders shows up" button.
23:36:46 <Terkhen> I wish that my days had 36 hours :/
23:38:05 <fjb> berndj: How log do you need to make supper?
23:40:16 <Vornicus> (mostly because I'm trying to do the same thing with explicit timings and I can'tget it to work.
23:40:30 <berndj> fjb: depends. for potato dumplings, 2 hours+ (i'm not really good at food)
23:41:35 <fjb> There should be no more than one or two crashes in that 2 hours, usualy even less.
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