IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-04-08
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01:31:36 <PeterT> Why is the console command "companies" only available to a network server if it doesn't display valuable information anyway?
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02:59:43 <Mazur> If I see one more city where my first station is ggoing to be called "[insert City name] Woods", I'm going to rename it Tiger.
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07:23:36 <Eddi|zuHause> soup in the morning?
07:24:48 <planetmaker> can be delicious. But needs getting used to.
07:25:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Forked: did you look at the date? :p
07:25:45 <Forked> I have no problem with the police busting people for selling pirated copies of stuff, but 10 years for modifiying a product you've bought?
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07:51:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Forked: i don't know the law they are trying to enforce there...
08:09:24 <dih> give the queen a call and ask what she thinks about it ^^
08:11:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Forked: if that is true at all, they don't seem to have a strong case...
08:11:48 <Eddi|zuHause> ... hm... apparently firefox now has a majority market share in europe...
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08:13:22 <Eddi|zuHause> (this statistics probably depends heavily on the websites)
08:17:55 <peter1138> modifying computers too? heh
08:19:31 <Forked> 342.1 (1) Every one who, fraudulently and without colour of right,
08:19:40 <Forked> (a) obtains, directly or indirectly, any computer service,
08:19:41 <Forked> (b) by means of an electro-magnetic, acoustic, mechanical or other device, intercepts or causes to be intercepted, directly or indirectly, any function of a computer system,
08:19:54 <Forked> "fraudulently and without colour of right"
08:20:00 <planetmaker> they seem to be highly non-representative.
08:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's a very clear majority... representative or not...
08:21:41 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: 5 years ago, it would have been 95% internet explorer...
08:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> <Forked> "fraudulently and without colour of right" <-- exactly, means "computers you don't own"... which obviously does not apply here...
08:23:29 <Forked> I'm not sure anymore if you actually own the gaming console in some countries anymore, or you just pay for the right to use it
08:23:59 <Jolteon> if i'm paying > 100, i expect to own it.
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08:24:19 <Forked> I own my xbox, not worried about that. Then again I do not live in Canada ;-)
08:24:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Forked: there's generally two different kinds of owning... and at least one kind is "who holds it in his hand is the owner"
08:25:25 * Jolteon picks up Eddi and holds him.
08:25:27 <Forked> I would not look at my self as the actual owner of an item that I am not, by law, allowed to do whatever I want with
08:26:17 <moot> Yeah, these days, even stuff you pay for still belongs to the company you bought it from
08:26:23 <moot> digital media is the start
08:26:31 <moot> but eventually it's going to progress to physical things as well
08:27:05 <moot> the troubling part is the average consumer has no idea what that means
08:27:12 <moot> doesn't know that it's bad
08:27:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Forked: "whatever I want" always has been bounded by laws...
08:27:18 <moot> so the general market will encourage that trend
08:27:22 <planetmaker> <Forked> I would not look at my self as the actual owner of an item that I am not, by law, allowed to do whatever I want with <-- if you rent an item you're one kind of owner. If you rent out the item, you're the other kind of owner
08:27:29 <planetmaker> I don't know the legal terms for both in English
08:27:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Forked: you cannot simply run over a human with a car, "just because you want"
08:28:05 <Forked> eddi: As long as it does not hurt others :p and me modding my xbox so it can run an emulator that can run a SNES game I have bought and paid for ..
08:28:32 <Forked> and running over a person with my car is not really that close to opening up my xbox and making it do things that was not intended by the company that produced it
08:28:40 <moot> Forked: but you're hurting microsoft because you're not giving them money for running that emulator
08:28:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Forked: i did agree there... that is very obviously not the intention of the law
08:28:50 <Forked> they are not offering me the emulator
08:29:03 <Forked> so how does it hurt them?
08:29:25 <moot> because you aren't giving them more money
08:29:46 <Forked> if microsoft had actually had linux support from the beginning the xbox360 would not have been cracked
08:30:00 <Forked> I understand that they of all companies do not have that support, but still
08:31:04 <planetmaker> Forked, I doubt that it wouldn't have been cracked with linux support. But still...
08:32:44 <Forked> sure, the DVD thing might have happened
08:33:01 <Forked> but it would not have been "rooted" as it is now, at least not so 'fast'
08:33:07 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: on the contrary. the PS3 was the last console to be cracked, simply because there was no need to do so, because it already had linux support
08:33:22 <Forked> the ps3 is not cracked
08:33:36 <Forked> not properly anyway, but Sony are or has already removed the linux support
08:33:37 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, "was" ;-)
08:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Forked: not fully, but the need constantly rises...
08:34:10 <planetmaker> but sure yes, the incentive drops. But then there are sufficient people out there who do exactly those things as a sport. And hell, why not?
08:34:17 <planetmaker> It's a kind of advanced riddle.
08:34:32 <Forked> the pirates simply do not have the skill/patience that some of the "I want linux on that thing, even if I have 3 computers I already run it on" hardware hackers have
08:36:11 <planetmaker> contrary to some of those hacks required it was moderately easy to install chess on a voting machine
08:37:22 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> but sure yes, the incentive drops. But then there are sufficient people out there who do exactly those things as a sport. And hell, why not? <-- in case of the PS3, it was very obvious that it was not "sufficient"
08:41:22 <moot> voting machines are ridiculously vuln
08:43:01 <planetmaker> luckily they're for now forbidden (again). At least for now.
08:43:27 <planetmaker> at least where I live :-)
08:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> they're not "forbidden", the constitutional court said "every (potentially computer-illiterate) must be capable of reconstructing the counting of the votes", which practically no computer can achieve...
08:48:17 <planetmaker> ok, I should have written "all currently existing" :-)
08:48:44 <planetmaker> And that ruling sounds quite sane to me :-)
08:49:37 <planetmaker> I just wonder when people will need special training with a ballpen in order to go voting ;-) as handwring is being abandoned ;-)
08:52:26 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: of course, that includes a shift in the general population, which might mean the court ruling should be viewed in a different light
09:18:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you look like you're having fun :)
09:20:02 <dih> because someone managed to - in a single page request - do 268 x file_exists() :-D
09:20:13 <dih> and wonders why the request takes such a long time
09:21:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i hope you get paid for this :p
10:00:36 <dih> fuck.... 2152 translations to the same language distributed over 179 files
10:00:58 <Jupix> is there a better way for figuring out whether some 268 files exist than looping file_exists through them?
10:00:58 <dih> yes - they are all included seperately as they are needed
10:01:23 <dih> no wonder, the translater does over 110 x a stat to see if the file exists before it tries to include it!
10:01:56 <dih> Jupix: 70 x file_exists goes on the account of 'autoloader'
10:02:05 <dih> 110 x file_exists for the crap translator
10:02:18 <dih> and no - we cannot just use gettext.....
10:02:55 <__ln__> why not embrace the OpenTTD translation system with webtranslator
10:04:11 <dih> and how are the translations handled?
10:04:13 <dih> define('TNS_TRADEFAIR.PHP.INFO', 'trade fair info');
10:05:07 <Jupix> why not just write an article for TDWTF
10:05:16 <Jupix> sounds like a nice addition
10:07:44 <lennard> dih: so cache the results of the stats in a memcached :P
10:08:58 <dih> yeah - that makes it faster ^^
10:09:21 <dih> we do have a memcached but i am not sure that will impfove speed _that_ much
10:10:11 <lennard> well, not the first time :)
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11:10:06 <peter1138> that never stopped me :D
11:10:22 <dih> do you still have the job? :-P
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11:41:05 <Ammler> stupid free certs needs yearly update
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11:45:14 <Forked> ah. gamer.no (the only .no gaming magazine I read) has a story about OpenTTD 1.0.0 :-)
11:46:15 <Ammler> "ferdig", almost German ;-)
11:47:38 <Ammler> why do the public screen mostly show a town?
11:47:58 <Forked> no idea, I don't work for them :)
11:49:37 <Ammler> the current screen on the openttd.org frontpage is quite ugly...
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11:51:44 <peter1138> submit a better one?
11:51:45 <Priski> it should have more rails, not some city
11:52:25 <Ammler> peter1138: anyone from the screenshot section is better...
11:52:26 <Priski> pick one out of those what there are on the screenshots page?
11:53:35 <peter1138> nothing to do with me, so
11:54:26 <Ammler> the screen gamer.no used is one of the better..
11:55:08 <Ammler> heise.de used that ugly screen
12:04:32 <dih> just read the first line of a php optimization howto:
12:04:39 <dih> "PHP is a very fast programming language, ..."
12:09:13 <TrueBrain> it is faster than Shakespeare
12:09:38 <Noldo> fast to get fed up with
12:10:03 <ragzid> and faster than diarrhea?:)
12:19:06 <Rubidium> so it's a language for programming very fast, not for creating fast programs... just for creating programs fast
12:20:03 <nighthawk_c_m> if coded right I think it is quite fast - and far more flexible then html - unless one is a really good html coder
12:21:02 <peter1138> but php is infinitely slower than html :)
12:21:09 <dih> erm.... you are comparing php and html - you compare a language with 'painting'?
12:22:35 <nighthawk_c_m> Html is a code too - so are oaintinmgs and languages, but I will not argue about that
12:35:44 <ddfreyne> Io is the language with the slowest interpreter ever
12:36:00 <ddfreyne> HTML is not turing-complete so that doesn’t count ;)
12:55:35 <OwenS> Hmm... does that mean Brainfuck is the language with the fastest interpreter ever :-P?
12:57:54 <OwenS> I suppose if you go by instructions/second, not much can beat BF, but BF's useful IPS is abysmal :p
13:08:28 <Eddi|zuHause> if you encode the brainfuck instructions in 3 bits, you have a great machine language for a simple processor
13:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause> then you can start adding "useful" features like cache, registers, indirect addressing
13:11:46 <Eddi|zuHause> and piece by piece you add more complex operations, like arithmetical or logical operations
13:13:39 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause, BF is a turing tarpit... I think one would be better off starting from somewhere less so :p
13:14:43 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: i don't see why that has to be...
13:15:17 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause, by the time you'd added useful instructions, the only BF ones worth keeping would be + and - :P
13:16:10 <OwenS> And those only if you didn't have a reasonable add literal/sub literal
13:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> no, those are the ones easiest to throw away
13:17:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you need register operations, so < and > you can keep, + and - are "read" "modified version of < and >" and "store"
13:17:44 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have one register for the pointer, and one "cache" register that contains the value of the current memory location
13:18:01 <Mazur> Is there some way to pinpoint a spot one missed when converting to electrified rail?
13:18:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: sadly, no.
13:18:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: there was a very promising "tile highlighting" patch, but the creator disappeared before finishing it
13:20:00 <Mazur> No brightly coloured NewGRF set in which each type of rail has a distictive colour?
13:22:43 <Mazur> Would that not be the easiest method? Or am I talking bollocks?
13:23:01 <OwenS> Mazur, electrified rails don't have special graphics
13:23:26 <Mazur> Brightly coloured overlays, then?
13:47:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: if you use dutchcatw.grf, the catenary is more visible than the default one
13:50:10 <Mazur> I thought of a simple method:
13:51:32 <Mazur> Isolate the problem area, (or part of it), remove signals if necessary, set up waypoints with loops behind them, and send a dedicated temporary car-less engine to the waypoint.
13:52:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: of course you can make a grf that makes electrified rails in "alarm colours", but the problem then is that you cannot switch between "normal" and "highlighting" mode, like you can with track reservation or transparency
14:06:01 <nighthawk_c_m> maybe with 2 parameters ingame? or do they not work when the game already loded - like is being played
14:13:58 <welshdragon> Mazur: send a single electric loco out
14:14:10 <welshdragon> that's how I always check my conversions
14:15:11 <Mazur> Found out it was the signalling, which was pointing the wrong direction for the return tracks.
14:17:38 <welshdragon> could an overlay be used when placing signals which indicates the direction the signal permits?
14:18:19 <welshdragon> (i.e. <> for bi - directional, < for left and > for right)
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14:18:30 <nighthawk_c_m> it all is less problematic eith the 32 bit graphics as you can zoom in closer
14:18:31 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... if i have a map, and it says "15 Miles make one Degree", how much is one mile?
14:19:03 <Eddi|zuHause> nighthawk_c_m: there are many different miles
14:19:14 <Eddi|zuHause> nighthawk_c_m: you're talking about the "british imperial" mile
14:19:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe one degree is 111 km
14:20:03 <nighthawk_c_m> 1 nautical mile = 1.85200 kilometers
14:20:33 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: 1 degree can't be put in km, it depends on where you are :)
14:20:49 <TrueBrain> 55m at 70N, 90m at 90N I believe :p
14:21:38 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: longitude degree varies, latitude degree is constant...
14:21:46 <TrueBrain> you didn't specify :p
14:21:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the map didn't either ;)
14:22:05 <TrueBrain> so it is an ambigious map :)
14:22:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but using a varying degree without specification is a bit useless :)
14:22:29 <TrueBrain> if you zoom in enough, it will be fine
14:23:48 <Eddi|zuHause> 7.4km sounds like the right range :=)
14:23:50 <Mazur> Can anyone suggest a good page about using a NewGRF? How to load/activate etc. All the basics for an OpenTTD newbie.
14:24:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: wiki.openttd.org
14:24:54 <Mazur> I'll dig further, there, thanks.
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14:49:08 <SpComb> bah, failed my first attempt at the final Settlers II roman campaign mission :(
14:51:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought you read the walkthroughs?
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15:00:39 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: it isn't that detailed
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15:04:02 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: mainly it just tells you who the enemies are and what their stance on you is, and approxiate directions that you have to advance
15:04:13 <welshdragon> how can we help you ImaNewbie?
15:04:19 <SpComb> I ran out of both soldiers and stone simultaneously
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15:04:45 <ImaNewbie> i'm wondering that myself
15:05:00 <ImaNewbie> i heard this is the place where open TTD people are
15:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: in S2TNG there's a mission where you have to rush through an enemies territory before you find gold
15:05:39 <Eddi|zuHause> don't know if that exists in S2 too, never made it that far
15:05:39 <planetmaker> here are open (-minded) people and OpenTTD people - and some are even both, some are one at most ;-)
15:06:22 <Eddi|zuHause> ImaNewbie: no, this channel is about discussing settlers...
15:06:48 <Eddi|zuHause> ... or webservers :p
15:06:54 <planetmaker> common typos actually
15:06:57 <Eddi|zuHause> ... or programming languages :)
15:07:57 <Eddi|zuHause> at least those seem to be covering todays topics :)
15:08:01 <TrueBrain> it RARELY is about OpenTTD, that is true
15:08:12 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: don't forget 'miles'
15:08:20 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause, and BF-inspired processor architectures?
15:08:35 <TrueBrain> OwenS: what has your boyfriend have to do with it?
15:08:39 <ImaNewbie> i said "where OpenTTD people are" not "where OpenTTD is frequently discussed"
15:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: that's just a slight spinoff from programming languages
15:11:28 <OwenS> TrueBrain, I was referring to the somwhat vulgar programming language :p
15:11:55 <TrueBrain> owh, really? Hmm .. who would have guessed
15:15:08 <ImaNewbie> anyhow a friend recomended me the game like... 2 days ago
15:15:27 <__ln__> ImaNewbie: and now you are seeking help for your addiction?
15:15:56 <__ln__> remember to eat and sleep
15:16:01 <ImaNewbie> yes, i'm looking for other addicted people to form an Anonymous Tycoons support group
15:16:58 <KenjiE20> we have one, it's TT-Forums :P
15:19:12 <Rubidium> nobody's anonymous here
15:21:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Hello, i'm Eddi, and i'm a Tycoon.
15:22:11 <ImaNewbie> i see i'm gonna feel right at home here :)
15:23:04 <Rubidium> hi, I'm Rubidium and time outside OpenTTD goes too fast when playing OpenTTD
15:23:38 <Belugas> Hello, i'm Belugas and I'm a white dolphin without dorsal fin
15:24:09 <OwenS> Hello, I'm Owen and I kill hard drives...
15:24:30 <planetmaker> Hi I'm planetmaker and I take pride in creating fjords like in Norwegian fjordlands
15:25:16 * Eddi|zuHause slaps planetmaker with a towel
15:25:44 * planetmaker fences that off with my own towel
15:25:54 <KenjiE20> now there's two hoopy froods
15:26:00 <Belugas> Hello, I'm a towel and I like to spank people
15:26:48 <KenjiE20> hi crazy, I'm a bowl of petunias
15:27:17 <TrueBrain> you really used to be a snake
15:27:48 <TrueBrain> but what is this strange thing I feel at my .. well .. lets call it my tummy? Wind .. yes, wind, wind is a good name. What is coming at me at a crazy speed .. round ...ound ... ground! Hello ground, wanne be friends?
15:29:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19584 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3744]: Crash when pressing 'h' (non-stop) in the order window of a ship or aircraft
15:29:58 <TrueBrain> pressing 'h' non-stop, or is 'h' non-stop?
15:30:10 <TrueBrain> you got to love those statements :)
15:31:53 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: whatever crashes your OpenTTD
15:32:26 <ImaNewbie> i believe it's called the "elevator button syndrome": pressing a button non-stop hoping it will make things go faster
15:33:12 <Belugas> TrueBrain! My hero and my inspiration!
15:33:51 <Rubidium> actually, there *are* elevators where pressing the "close door" button makes the elevator not stop on floors where people want to enter the elevator
15:34:27 <OwenS> Rubidium, being rude *and* going faster in one button? awesome
15:36:03 <Rubidium> OwenS: it actually makes sense
15:36:21 <KenjiE20> you have to hit close door and the desired floor together iirc
15:36:54 <Rubidium> if the elevator is full, waiting for a timeout to close the door and to stop at floors just to wait for the timeout makes it less efficient
15:37:29 * KenjiE20 np: H2G2 - The Primary Phase Disc 1
15:37:54 <OwenS> KenjiE20, you need to make sure it goes on the #ottdc charts too ;-)
15:38:00 <Rubidium> but then... in Europe those things usually get used for the rudeness... after all people in Europe seem to be more egocentrical than in e.g. Japan
15:40:11 <Rubidium> was really a shocker when coming back from Japan that once in Europe people where standing still on both sides of the escalator again; I had never seen that happen in Japan
15:41:00 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19585 /branches/1.0/ (18 files in 5 dirs): (log message trimmed)
15:41:00 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
15:41:00 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Feature: [NewGRF] Support for extended text code 0x9A 11, print qword (r19570)
15:41:00 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Change: Sync Debian packaging updates from Debian, but keep building a single package (r19572)
15:41:00 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: Crash when pressing 'h' (non-stop) in the order window of a ship or aircraft [FS#3744] (r19584)
15:41:02 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: Graphs were not properly updated when going toggling keys (i.e. companies) (r19574)
15:41:04 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: The timetable button was not automatically raised [FS#3739] (r19571)
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15:51:06 <Eddi|zuHause> ] <TrueBrain> but what is this strange thing I feel at my .. well .. lets call it my tummy? Wind .. yes, wind, wind is a good name. <-- we have a name for "tummy winds" :p
15:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> (actually two, depending on direction :p)
15:54:44 <Rubidium> no, never heard of those...
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16:07:30 <planetmaker> Rubidium, want another transcript with desync? Then pull :-)
16:07:41 <planetmaker> It's actually a continuation though, of the old
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16:10:22 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I'll look a bit later
16:13:31 <planetmaker> It won't run away :-)
16:16:14 <Mazur> Here's an interesting one: Two trains, shared orders, separate double tracks, transport coal between the two endpoints. No other stations or connections to the dual track. Yet both claim being lost.
16:17:57 <Mazur> Because it was bugging me, I already made one skip a destination, so I can;t make a save for those interested in tracking the bug. Sorry, wasn't thinking.
16:22:13 <Mazur> And yes, there are depots along the line, one at both ends, easily accesssible.
16:23:04 <Rubidium> lovely... 01:22 another company takeover + desync, 01:37 preceded by cache mismatches and company takeover (so there might be two), the 18:07 one doesn't have company takeover
16:24:36 <Rubidium> could you ask damaso about his OS and where he got the binary from?
16:24:50 <planetmaker> Rubidium, as it doesn't seem to be really bothersome on the server side, we could also run that on the trunk server
16:26:02 <Mazur> Eddi: "Oh, no, not again."
16:26:22 <Rubidium> planetmaker: it was meant to be not too bothersome this way :)
16:27:13 <planetmaker> official OpenTTD binary on mandriva linux 64bit is the answer to the 18:07 incident
16:27:50 <Rubidium> you might consider disabling autosave when using -ddesync=3
16:28:12 <planetmaker> but they're cycled through anyway
16:28:59 <Rubidium> but two autosaves after eachother at server side is a bit noticable at client side
16:30:28 <ImaNewbie> anyone know a decent source explaining how to build railroads?
16:30:46 <planetmaker> ImaNewbie, the wiki? Or maybe also the openttdcoop wiki?
16:30:57 <planetmaker> Or look at the savegames in our PublicServer archive
16:31:08 <planetmaker> (linked from the wiki.openttdcoop.org )
16:31:22 <ImaNewbie> checking out the coop wiki
16:31:43 <planetmaker> beware. We're insane ;-)
16:31:57 <planetmaker> you could also youtube for some tutorials
16:33:21 <ImaNewbie> i hope you don't mean a powerpoint presentation with someone slowly reading the bullet points :)
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16:43:56 <Rubidium> hmm, those cache mismatches have actually happened quite often
16:44:04 <Rubidium> more often than company takeovers
16:44:18 <Rubidium> but then, they have happened so often that it might not be a problem
16:44:27 <Rubidium> or at least not THE problem
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16:53:05 <Rubidium> yay... the cache mismatch stuff seems to be reproducable from an autosave :)
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17:07:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19586 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix: some false positives in cache validity checks because cache = v->cache doesn't necessarily write all sizeof(Cache) bytes
17:12:46 <Eddi|zuHause> ... so does that fix the desyncs?
17:14:48 <Rubidium> no, just removes false positives in the cache mismatch thing
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17:16:44 <fonsinchen> There are desyncs in trunk?
17:18:01 <fonsinchen> Maybe I can help debugging them (before I start debugging those in cargodist ...)?
17:18:34 <Rubidium> there might be one that seems to be related to buying a bankrupt company in 1.0.0
17:18:55 <Rubidium> there are false positive for the cache validity checks
17:19:42 <fonsinchen> yes, if it's about buying a bankrupt company it might explain some things in the OTTDC cargodist test game.
17:20:06 <Rubidium> planetmaker: want a logging of crashed trains in the 'stable' game?
17:20:22 <fonsinchen> The first desync there happened when Alberth bought my bankrupt company.
17:20:49 <Alberth> I got out just in time :p
17:21:48 <OwenS> Cargodist's tendency to bankrupt companies exacrebating them :p
17:21:51 <fonsinchen> uh, do you suspect it has something to do with crashed trains? I think I had a train crash right before that.
17:22:24 <Rubidium> oh... epiphany time...
17:22:45 <Rubidium> it didn't happen in 0.7.x because there the buy-other-bankrupt-company thing was broken (read: missing)
17:23:07 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: no, crashed trains cause false positives in the cache validity checks
17:23:34 <Rubidium> because they randomly spin around wagons without updating the "curve speed limit"
17:27:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19587 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp:
17:27:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Fix: false positive in cache validity checking when a train crashes; the max
17:27:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: curve speed depends on the 'angle' between wagons and with wagons spinning
17:27:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: around randomly without updating the max curve speed cache that leads to
17:27:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: "seeing" a difference. As the caches aren't useful for crashed vehicles anymore,
17:27:58 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: just ignore those vehicles
17:35:32 <planetmaker> interesting thing those "false positives" :-)
17:35:41 <planetmaker> Rubidium: yes I would like to see that :-)
17:36:00 <planetmaker> Rubidium: should we start a new logging or is it fine to just continue?
17:36:17 <Rubidium> planetmaker: current logging is fine; I'll just ignore the cache mismatches
17:36:24 <Rubidium> anyhow, look at the cache mismatches for the crashes
17:38:25 <planetmaker> I guess the cache mismatches anyway cannot be turned off in 1.0, I assume?
17:38:38 <planetmaker> (except if we run a modified binary ;-) )
17:39:33 <planetmaker> But we could (also) turn it on in trunk. But as I haven't seen it there on our PS really, it remains to assume that it might be a MP - related thing
17:39:37 <planetmaker> with more than one company
17:40:24 <Rubidium> you won't see the cache mismatches unless -ddesync>=2
17:40:29 <planetmaker> Rubidium: yet another right now. If you want...
17:40:56 <planetmaker> ... pull it (again)
17:41:41 <planetmaker> anyway... I might be off till tomorrow night and at most only randomly until then. Catch you later :-)
17:42:06 <planetmaker> I might start a new game later tonight though on the server.
17:43:40 <Rubidium> no direct buyout, but there was one a while ago
17:45:23 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19588 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt czech.txt):
17:45:23 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:23 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: catalan - 3 changes by arnau
17:45:23 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: czech - 3 changes by Harlequin
17:49:41 <Rubidium> just blame Gentoo...
17:51:36 <Rubidium> other distros seem to be naming it openttd-open[gsm][sf]x (other being Fedora, Debian, (Open)SUSE)
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17:53:47 <Phazorx> i knew i could count on you Rubi :)
17:55:38 <Phazorx> part one: how simple/complex would be to dumb down one of existing PFs (original is most likely candidate) to stop behaving like destination based and replace al logic by situational random switches on split based on presented options?
17:56:11 <Phazorx> so essentially pf would just move train within limits of game engin towards next green signa
17:56:23 <Phazorx> stop if there are none and choose randomly one if there are many
17:56:34 <Rubidium> just let them return "there's not path"
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17:57:03 <Phazorx> Rubidium: well, performance optimization is one of key aspects of this question
17:57:06 <Rubidium> although, that probably won't work right
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17:57:31 <Phazorx> so i'd rather not have any patching at all since none is needed
17:58:24 <Phazorx> this comes from cooper's realm where we sometimes use crazy networks, which guide trains by logic and have no need for PF such (trains dont even have orders somtimes)
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17:59:25 <Rubidium> Phazorx: having no orders gives you the 'random' behaviour you're probably looking for, but it won't work right in ALL cases
18:00:46 <Phazorx> we did notice that, and random behavior is not all that is desired, chances are - by not having PF overhead we wul be able to squeeze more fun out of the game, as in d more and go further
18:01:26 <Phazorx> so, a very silly PF would be nice
18:02:08 <Phazorx> think about simple p2p networks that default (and most current) AIs build - the get no benefit of PF features either
18:02:53 <Phazorx> essentiall complicated PF routines are mosty trying to overcome network design flaws of some kind at larger scle of things
18:07:20 <Phazorx> anyway... that was part one... which is largely based on assumption of it being possible and easy... as well as that someone is willing to look into that
18:07:40 <Phazorx> part two is related to time estimates and chances of that ever making to trunk :o)
18:08:32 <Phazorx> which is quite a bit to ask for... but wouldnt make sense to make it another custom patch for coopers and deny it to public
18:10:04 <Alberth> it wouldn't, but that does not mean it should be added to trunk. Publishing the patch at a forum would be sufficient
18:10:45 <Alberth> lots of custom openttd versions are being built and distributed that way
18:10:57 <Rubidium> I don't know what potential problems you're going to cause with a "no order, no pathfinder, let funky signalling figure it out" approach
18:11:20 <Rubidium> so, can't say anything useful about chances or time estimates
18:13:48 <Phazorx> Alberth: openttdcoop's public server uses official revisions only, that way we can reach more players
18:15:18 <Phazorx> Rubidium: i was under assumption that people who look into code pretty much every day would have a clue about things like that... but to me it looks like removing things mostly and hacking it fugly rather than developing a new and shiny PF
18:16:17 <Alberth> main problem is not the change itself, it is deciding there are no other bad effects, I think
18:16:53 <Phazorx> there are bad effects - trains might not get where they normally would and are lost by definition
18:17:05 <Rubidium> Phazorx: what you're asking breaks a lot of assumptions OpenTTD is built upon and when breaking assumptions all bets are off
18:17:34 <Phazorx> Rubidium: is the state machine of moving vehicles within engine documented anywhere in some form i can look at?
18:17:38 <Rubidium> it took almost two years to revamp the window system and that "only" assumed a fixed size for widgets
18:17:55 <Phazorx> heh, visual changes are known to do that :)
18:18:09 <Phazorx> and window framework is no little deal
18:18:21 <Rubidium> Phazorx: no; actually, there are no moving vehicles without engine
18:18:46 <Rubidium> hmm, or did you mean another "engine"?
18:18:55 <Phazorx> i mean game engine :)
18:19:03 <Phazorx> rather than choochoo engine
18:20:13 <Alberth> simplest way may be to start at the PF, and trace back what uses it
18:21:11 <Rubidium> in any case there's probably no clear documentation of (all) aspects of vehicle movement
18:21:30 <Rubidium> even then there're many different parts about it that you probably don't care about
18:21:32 <Phazorx> to me simpliest way always was to comprehend what people who did the base for it wrote
18:22:16 <OwenS> Phazorx, I'd guess a bunch of it was written by people who are no longer developers ;-)
18:22:17 <Phazorx> but i would like to know what things are in PF domain and how often it is being talked to
18:22:18 <Rubidium> anyhow, I'd say ChooseTrack
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18:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause> why not simply write a new pathfinder, and hook that in the existing abstraction?
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18:29:16 <Eddi|zuHause> as far as i have understood you simply want it to do a BFS to look whether the next signal is green
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18:31:32 <Eddi|zuHause> so basically you want to look at all places using "_settings_game.pf.pathfinder_for_trains" and add your DumbPathfinder there
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18:34:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the trickiest part i presume to be depot handling
18:35:30 <Eddi|zuHause> (you want to find depots even if they're not in the current block, because the check is probably not done all the time)
18:37:16 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but... the signals should guide the vehicle to the depot, not the vehicle itself
18:37:30 <Phazorx> hmm... depots are probably something tricky
18:38:17 <Phazorx> since they are per train thing rather than per train stream
18:39:21 <Phazorx> but easiest would be with per block check on top level
18:39:36 <Phazorx> would work even better for all practical usage of depoting trains anyway
18:39:54 <Phazorx> it doesnt matter which depot train goes in for a service or an upgrade
18:40:24 <Phazorx> am i correct assuming that currently "send to depot" order is a generic order issues aside of schedule?
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18:43:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "Go to depot" is triggered by three situations: a) player manually gives a depot order from the train window, b) train has service order in vehicle's schedule, c) every few days the train checks whether it needs servicing, searches a nearby depot, and if it found that, issues service-in-depot
18:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> a) can also be triggered from other places like the train list
18:48:00 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: that's a trigger, but what is th mechanism under it?
18:48:15 <Phazorx> a temporary current order is added to the schedule queue?
18:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: just do what i said earlier, the source code is better structured than you think :)
18:48:42 <Phazorx> so a PF normally tries to path to it regulary as train moves?
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18:49:09 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: i'll do that as soon as svn co completes :)
18:49:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that takes like 10 seconds?!?
18:49:26 <OwenS> Phazorx, should have done a git clone :P
18:49:39 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: not up, co!
18:50:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: ok, 20 :p
18:50:13 <Phazorx> but you are correct, igot some issues there :/
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19:27:32 <andythenorth> if any kind of goal system existed, sho
19:27:46 <andythenorth> should it require certain newgrfs?
19:28:05 <andythenorth> that is incredibly badly worded and typed. ignore me
19:28:15 <andythenorth> I'll go and do something more useful :P
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19:39:19 <welshdragon> andythenorth: like draw graphics?
19:39:38 <andythenorth> like cook dinner
19:45:17 * andythenorth is remarkably tired
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20:28:33 <__ln__> why is a raven like a writing desk?
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21:15:12 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19589 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Change: add some more useful information to the desync log and unify the formatting
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21:26:42 * Eddi|zuHause imagines a black-and-yellow striped whale...
21:26:58 * OwenS ponders Eddi|zuHause' sanity
21:27:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm almost as bad as TrueBrain :p
21:27:46 <__ln__> have you been thinking about words that begin with the letter 'M'?
21:27:56 * Prof_Frink puts his underpants on his head and sticks two pencils up his nose
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21:29:45 * Eddi|zuHause wonders if the joke with "Walross" could possibly be translated into english...
21:32:51 <Eddi|zuHause> part two: "Walross" [=walrus] sharing the same word stem as "Wal" [=whale]
21:33:01 <Eddi|zuHause> part three: SpComb mixing things up :)
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21:34:32 <OwenS> If Prof_Frink is sticking underpants on his head and pencils up his nose, I'll just shoot him for wasting my time...
21:35:32 <Eddi|zuHause> (ethymological question: what does a walrus [=Wal|ross] have to do with whales [=Wal] and steed [=Ross])
21:35:54 <SpComb> you can't ride a whale
21:39:03 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: the worm is the spice...
21:40:04 <__ln__> walk without rhythm, it won't attract the worm
21:40:11 <SpComb> whereas I could easily see someone photoshopping a saddle onto a Walrus
21:40:21 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: There's no walruses in wales.
21:41:03 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i don't think they had photoshop when the name was introduced
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21:57:13 <BWJM> I have a question... Why can't I remove a train station block when it says "Train in the way" when there clearly is not a train occupying that space?
21:57:53 <blathijs> BWJM: Because there is a train in another part of the station?
21:58:17 <BWJM> Lots... It's a 6x5 station.
21:58:22 <BWJM> I have to clear them all out?
21:58:41 <blathijs> BWJM: Yup, since the station will be removed in its entirety
21:59:00 <Rubidium> or use the bulldozer to remove parts
21:59:04 <blathijs> if you want to remove just a part of a station, use the build station tool and then click the bulldozer icon (IIRC)
22:01:37 <BWJM> I just cleared out all trains and rebuilt the station entirely.
22:01:58 <BWJM> How do I prevent the domes on stations from appearing?
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23:01:12 <entw> hi, newbie question: i'm in year 1965. how do i build electrified depots?
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23:04:09 <Rubidium> click on the rail thing, keep it pressed and notice the dropdown
23:04:21 <FauxFaux> If it doesn't work, push harder.
23:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that link looks like an Obiwan in the date :p
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