IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-04-07
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01:52:35 <yuriks> is there any disvantage to using path signals?
01:52:45 <yuriks> like, do they cost your more in maintenance or anything?
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01:59:15 <yuriks> I asked you about junctions before iirc =P
01:59:24 <PeterT> I don't believe that was me
02:00:44 <PeterT> I don't want to take credit if it wasn't me.
02:01:01 <yuriks> well, let's just let it at 'thanks' then =)
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02:25:24 <russell_h> is the opengfx, etc downloads site down?
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03:19:53 <Mazur> Man, I did some major, and I mean Major, retracking today.
03:22:03 <Mazur> 4, maybe 5 major crossroads, 10 cities, 10 villages...
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04:20:44 <Mazur> If you have a set of grouped trains on shread orders, and you actuvate the timerable on one of them, will hte timetable get shares, as well? And if so, will hte game space the set out over the trajectory they must follow?
04:21:13 <Mazur> shrad oorders, rather than shread.
04:50:17 <russell_h> does anyone know where I can download opengfx?
04:51:57 <Eddi|zuHause> google knows. the installer knows. the game knows, the website knows...
04:52:07 <russell_h> the website seems to be down
04:54:12 <russell_h> pretty much anything on openttdcoop.org as far as I can tell
04:55:16 <russell_h> ah, looks like things are mirrored on
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07:29:59 <Priski> hard to stay still after 4 cups of coffee
07:30:07 <Priski> yet I have nothing to do
07:33:55 <planetmaker> hm... openttd.org is also not really fast right now....
07:35:05 <planetmaker> 504 Gateway Time-out
07:36:37 <Priski> does not open for me either
07:38:43 <peter1138> but, being a professional sysadmin by trade, i have no rights on openttd's systems :p
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07:59:28 <zombie_monkey> any advice on which AI to use? all of the ones I've tried so far have crashed
07:59:40 <zombie_monkey> like, they don't even start
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08:02:50 <zombie_monkey> at the time they're supposed to start playing I get a message in the AI debugger
08:04:32 <planetmaker> then try the other ones :-)
08:04:47 <planetmaker> and try with their newest versions
08:05:02 <planetmaker> especially NoCAB gets currently very frequent updates.
08:05:27 <zombie_monkey> I tried NoCab, Admiral, Simple and Rondja
08:06:07 <planetmaker> Give them a 2nd chance. And also try CluelessPlus
08:06:19 <zombie_monkey> rondje didn't crash, and it built and HQ and stopped
08:06:24 <zombie_monkey> the otehr ones crashed
08:06:36 <planetmaker> Also those AIs can only get better, if you help the authors by making decent bug reports about their respective AIs.
08:06:48 <zombie_monkey> oh, wait, it crashed now
08:06:56 <zombie_monkey> planetmaker: yeah, I know
08:07:23 <zombie_monkey> it's just... am I doing something wrong?
08:07:40 <zombie_monkey> I mean sure, I'd love to help with bug reports but they're not working at all
08:07:41 <planetmaker> for the end user there's not much more you can do than start the AI.
08:08:20 <planetmaker> While all those AI are not 100% stable, they usually do the job for me quite fine, especially AdmiralAI.
08:08:34 <planetmaker> And then NoCAB and CluelessPlus and Rondje
08:08:55 <planetmaker> ChoCho might still be interesting but developement seems to have stalled.
08:10:26 <zombie_monkey> planetmaker: maybe you have to play on specific map settings so they don't crash?
08:22:55 <zombie_monkey> well I odn't know what the problem is but none of them work at all.
08:25:24 <Terkhen> what message do you get?
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08:28:51 <Terkhen> one of the few cons of having join / part in a different window
08:29:51 <ragzid> that's why I'm using irssi in default configuration :)
08:30:56 <ragzid> anyway, time to go to school, test of integration is waiting...
08:31:26 <jordi> blathijs, Rubidium: the Ubuntu stuff got an OK, it's now on the hands of the release team
08:32:30 <blathijs> jordi: You mean the sponsor OK, right?
08:32:47 <jordi> and I have instructions to prod release team members if they don't say anything soon
08:32:51 <jordi> this needs testing ASAP
08:33:35 <jordi> so I'll use more superpowers because I know a few of the release team members well
08:46:10 <Rubidium> yesterday 11740 downloads of OpenTTD (11219 of 1.0.0, 77% Windows, 15% Debian/Ubuntu, 4% Linux generic, 3% source). Furthermore 81960 BaNaNaS downloads (85% via the mirror). 138 GiB offloaded to the mirror, 77 GiB by our own server (80% of that HTTP traffic)
08:47:44 <planetmaker> Nearly 10x the usual load, if I see that correctly
08:48:35 <Rubidium> planetmaker: bandwidth wise it is (at least comparing to pre 1.0.0-beta)
08:49:21 <Rubidium> 2009 average is roughly 2000 binary downloads a day
08:49:49 <Rubidium> and some 15000 bananas downloads a day
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08:50:49 <jordi> Rubidium: who sponsors/pays for that bw?
08:51:14 <Rubidium> jordi: the main server, that's paid from the donations
08:51:36 <Rubidium> the mirrors are paid with appreciation
08:53:26 <planetmaker> but it seems only the smaller sub-peak might be slash-dot - related, given the download count of the last days...
08:54:24 <Rubidium> that second peak looks like Europeans coming home and downloading OpenTTD or so (after checking out the website at work)
08:55:32 <planetmaker> so... 3-4k downloads due to slashdot :-)
08:56:19 <TrueBrain> 6000 is more like what would be expected
08:56:24 <TrueBrain> so that make 5000 slashdot
08:57:00 <Rubidium> probably a bit more because of it being a tuesday which has less than in weekends and because monday was a holiday in Europe, i.e. TB's expectation is probably right/a little too high
08:58:15 <TrueBrain> we btw got 3760 visitors from slashdot
08:58:24 <Rubidium> and that's optimistic because with 1.0.0-beta1 we saw peak-40% after 5 days
08:58:25 <TrueBrain> (which have their 'referer' active)
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09:03:16 <zombie_monkey> hm, so the problem is nothing compiles, there are erros in the libraries, and sometimes the ais can't find the libraries
09:03:29 <zombie_monkey> someone in the forums has the same problem
09:03:51 <zombie_monkey> btw, downloading most things except ronje is not reflected in the online content download interface
09:04:01 <zombie_monkey> although I can see them in ~/.openttd/ai/
09:04:41 <planetmaker> AI libraries are loaded automatically as a dependency
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09:53:10 <Galdar> What am I supposed to do if I want this for OSX, anyone here who can tell me how, or you guys might at have guide of some sort?
09:54:11 <peter1138> there are some OS X builds floating around, i suppose
09:54:22 <dih> someone at the tt-forums built 1.0.0 for os x
09:54:29 <dih> never tried it - perhaps pm knows more
10:06:57 <Galdar> this one works well :)
10:07:14 <dih> Galdar: on which os exactly?
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10:13:02 <nico> i was wondering where the downloaded AIs were stocked
10:13:18 <nico> because I tried moving the folder to another computer who cannot access the internet to get the AIs
10:17:17 <nico> or, how could i change the default port to download the in game contents?
10:19:37 <blathijs> nico: What port exactly and why do you want that?
10:20:41 <jordi> blathijs: I need someone to test 1.0.0 in lucid and confirm SDL works ok
10:20:43 <nico> cause the port of the in-game downloader is blocked here
10:20:59 <nico> i vpn'd at home to download the files using the in game downloader
10:21:10 <nico> then transfered the openttd folder
10:21:24 <nico> and there wasn't any of the things i had downloaded, yet they are present on the distant computer
10:22:00 <OwenS> nico, they're stored under your user profile folder
10:23:03 <jordi> dih: also, I'm happy with how well openttd works on squeeze right now. :)
10:23:14 <blathijs> jordi: I'm already booting up beta-1 in Virtualbox :-)
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10:23:30 <blathijs> Though it seems to be either really slow or not working right now
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10:39:33 <blathijs> Perhaps without ACPI
10:40:11 <Noldo> dual booting is the way to go
10:40:38 <blathijs> Noldo: Not for just doing some testing on the openttd package, really
10:40:51 <blathijs> Noldo: Also, I don't have any free disk partitions for dual booting :-)
10:41:30 <blathijs> s/free disk partitions/unassigned lvm space/
10:41:59 <blathijs> I've already had to free up space to download the ISO :-)
10:42:07 <TrueBrain> omg, not that discusion again
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10:43:47 <TT1a1a1> first off, congrats on the release of version 1
10:44:05 <TT1a1a1> second, what can i do to get on an authorities good side?
10:45:05 <OwenS> TT1a1a1, good service, tree bribes
10:45:10 <planetmaker> good service to stations in their area of influence and patience
10:45:31 <TT1a1a1> cant get a foothold in the area
10:45:49 <planetmaker> First build your stations while it is allowed, then the infrastructure.
10:45:52 <OwenS> Then tree bribe them: Demolish all their trees and replace them. They forget you demolished them in the first place :p
10:45:56 <planetmaker> For now build in another city :-)
10:46:27 <TT1a1a1> ah, ill try the tree bribe
10:46:38 <TT1a1a1> could do with a better way to do that
10:46:55 <TT1a1a1> maybe a 'assainate council leader' option
10:47:35 <TT1a1a1> no other cities left, playing the UK scenario and have been spending my time linking up scotlands towns
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10:51:20 <dih> fast forward, start over, ...
10:54:30 <TT1a1a1> whats the plan now that version one is out? are there plans to expand it out to new features?
10:55:06 <planetmaker> no. It will be left as is and we all now start working on OpenRealism
10:56:03 <planetmaker> a moderately funny answer to a moderately sensible question :-)
10:56:03 <dih> a commercial clone of openttd just more realistic
10:56:44 <planetmaker> Well... anyone could even sell it :-)
10:56:45 <dih> there already is a contract with atari
10:57:20 <dih> had a legal battle with CS, but he lost
10:58:31 <planetmaker> TT1a1a1, honestly: sure it will go on. There's no "vision" yet as what constitutes a version 2.0, though
10:58:59 <dih> but everybody has a vision of what could be done
10:59:09 <dih> at least i assume they do ^^
10:59:10 <planetmaker> but development already progressed passed 1.0
10:59:16 <planetmaker> with some very nifty features :-)
10:59:28 <planetmaker> dih, I don't think so.
10:59:36 <dih> uh... what have i missed in the past 10 days?
10:59:41 <planetmaker> Many people have a length wishlist of this and that patch or so.
10:59:50 <dih> at least yexo should have some bright ideas ^^
10:59:54 <TT1a1a1> definitely, im well impressed so far
11:00:03 <planetmaker> collection of ideas != vision :-)
11:00:26 <dih> but a vision requires ideas ^^
11:00:42 <dih> at least that kind of 'vision' ^^
11:01:04 <TT1a1a1> i dont think the ideas are the issue, its how to deliver them inside the game
11:01:22 <TT1a1a1> whether they are turned on or not
11:01:44 <planetmaker> The issue of a new vision rather is "what general direction do we want to go" - not the level of "this feature or that"
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11:02:05 <planetmaker> cargodist + 3d + multicore + mmorp is no vision.
11:03:37 <planetmaker> I think adding "multicore" in some way to the vision might be a good thing; maybe also a re-worked client-server model
11:04:33 <planetmaker> I don't say it's easy, I'm aware of all the threads which result in "not possible"
11:05:04 <dih> the gui just was reworked ^^
11:05:05 <planetmaker> But given the way hardware development goes, the trend clearly is that people don't own the super high end computer anymore, but the number crunching is done on servers.
11:05:11 <Noldo> openttd is a single core app bt desing
11:05:16 <planetmaker> And bandwidth gets cheaper
11:05:50 <planetmaker> I don't claim I have an idea on the implementation side nor any detailed idea about it. But *something* in that direction might seem sensible.
11:05:58 <dih> openttd is very low on bw compared to other games, but again, comparing, openttd has a huge state
11:06:55 <dih> erm - run a css server at home with it's 800GB traffic a month and see what your isp tells you ^^
11:07:06 <planetmaker> yes. So there might be some trade-off between bandwidth and CPU usage to be considered
11:07:22 <dih> yes, but the css state is small
11:07:32 <planetmaker> dih, Those servers surely cannot be run from your dial-up, I know.
11:07:49 <dih> 100 mbit, goot latency.....
11:08:59 <jordi> Rubidium, blathijs: this is looking good.
11:09:19 <Mazur> (Well, yes, it is afternoon, I know, I just played rather late, of course.)
11:09:38 <jordi> Rubidium: oops, I hadn't seen your reply
11:10:05 <jordi> Rubidium: thanks for the input
11:10:31 <blathijs> jordi: Yeah, I saw. I'll stop trying to get Ubuntu running now (Trying to compile openttd using only a ramdisk and 512MB of RAM turns out to be hopeless :-p)
11:12:41 <Mazur> Would it not be great, if you could predefine a number of combinations of items, so you can build them in one go?
11:12:50 <Rubidium> blathijs: just take the package from OpenTTD's site
11:14:35 <Mazur> Like for instance: I have a developing idea of how to implement a train station, if I could predefine the oombination(s), I would keep forgetting to build all the details like a busstop, a lorry bay and a depot.
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11:16:15 <Mazur> Or to buy adjacent land for expansion when the time comes.
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11:22:15 <Mazur> Idea 2: I would be most convenient, if in train orders one could designate trains as either: Stopping Train (Meaning visit each station along the road) or IC (Meaning: Only visit those stations mentioned, pass the rest by if possible).
11:22:47 <Rubidium> you can already do that
11:23:02 <Rubidium> go non-stop to vs go to
11:23:09 <Mazur> Non-stop does the second half, not non-stop the first.
11:25:07 <Mazur> Idea 3: Would it not be convenient to be able to have trains run from the end backwards through the list, instead of having to visit each intervening station again for say, a stopping train?
11:25:31 <Rubidium> that idea's not new either
11:25:33 <Mazur> Ooptional, of course, one might want a circle line.
11:26:11 <Rubidium> no, but it's suggested literally hundreds of times
11:26:45 <Mazur> Well, I was bound to have a non-original idea, as well.
11:28:55 <Mazur> I was a bit disappointed yesterday, when a group of 4 sharing trains took a different route back to the starting point, through a very crowded and overused station. But I'll be using waypoints in the future.
11:30:00 <Mazur> I find Signs to be dreadfully helpful, by the way, I've been using them a lot yesterday when revamping my train network.
11:30:59 <Mazur> Making a sign everwhere where I was redesigning, to help memorise which track was supposed to go where.
11:31:30 <Mazur> Cleared out most of my spaghetti.
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12:05:49 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19571 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3739]: The timetable button was not automatically raised (sbr)
12:06:16 <planetmaker> Rubidium, should be restarted
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13:00:03 <Jupix> what's a XXXX_z0m.png file?
13:00:27 <Jupix> heh hee, i was asking for that, wasn't i
13:01:06 <Jupix> point was, what's its relation to 32bit-EZ
13:06:34 <Belugas> sir master Rubidium, i humbly bow in front of you and present my most sincere salutations
13:06:57 <dih> oh my - this is getting ugly ^^
13:10:32 <blathijs> jordi: Awesome, Ubuntu granted the exception :-D
13:10:33 <dih> imagining belugs with his oh so sincere salutiataions ^^
13:11:12 <__ln__> dih: you can't dereference belugas unless he's a pointer
13:15:51 <Rubidium> blathijs: that'll make many people happy!
13:15:51 <Belugas> i point out me deference to those who i consider worth it :)
13:15:59 <Belugas> you had yours too, dih ;)
13:16:28 <Rubidium> blathijs: so, only the "sparc" issue remains (did you or jordi poke sparc@buildd.d.o?)
13:19:02 <Rubidium> blathijs: did "we" ever test installing our OpenTTD packages over Debian's?
13:20:17 <jordi> blathijs: ha, fantastic
13:20:29 <jordi> hopefully 1.0.0 is a good enough version
13:20:38 <jordi> because getting 1.0.1 is going to be fscking hard
13:21:20 <Rubidium> jordi: but then they can download "our" package which should get all the other stuff from Ubuntu's repository
13:22:28 <jordi> "our" package is made by blathijs I assume, right?
13:22:37 <Rubidium> jordi: nah, by our compile farm
13:22:42 <jordi> ie, it's compatible, no file collisions, etc?
13:22:55 <jordi> "made by" means the debian/ dir is the same as in Debian
13:23:12 <Rubidium> no, it's slightly different to not make two packages
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13:23:28 <Rubidium> and the changelog's content is different
13:23:32 <jordi> uhm. hopefully it has the necessary replaces
13:23:35 <Rubidium> the rest should (now again) be the same
13:24:34 <blathijs> Rubidium: Hmm, I was going to test that, but I think I didn't
13:24:39 <Rubidium> oh, and it doesn't have the depends/recommends yet
13:24:56 <blathijs> jordi: It should have the necessary stuff, it just hasn't been tested yet I think
13:25:09 <blathijs> Rubidium: I'll try to test that later today
13:25:31 <Rubidium> lovely... 1.0.0 won't replace 1.0.0-1 :)
13:25:58 <jordi> Rubidium: what do you mean "replace"?
13:26:10 <jordi> absence of Debian revision implies -0, if you mean that
13:26:39 <Rubidium> jordi: that it fails to downgrade it (not sure whether that's right or not)
13:26:52 <Rubidium> building a .deb with a much newer version to properly test it
13:27:19 <blathijs> Rubidium: Downgrade what to where?
13:29:28 <blathijs> Hmm, I see that now as well. It considers removing openttd-data (which it should), but doesn't for some reason I don't understand
13:29:48 <blathijs> Perhaps because it is a downgrade? That's probably what you mean by building a newer version, then.
13:29:59 <blathijs> Rubidium: Why is the version number 1.0.0, not 1.0.0-1 ?
13:33:09 <Rubidium> blathijs: because I didn't add the -1 in changelog I think; after all, it's not an official Debian package
13:33:39 <blathijs> Rubidium: No, but it's not a Debian native package either (which is what the current version number says)
13:33:56 <blathijs> Something like 1.0.0~openttd.org-1 might be better, then?
13:34:00 <Rubidium> blathijs: but as jordi says, it implies -0
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13:34:18 <Rubidium> so I guess we'll just go with -0 from now on (if I don't forget)
13:35:16 <blathijs> Not sure if -0 is distinguishable from no debian revision everywhere
13:35:47 <blathijs> How about -1~openttd.org ? That's similar to what bpo does?
13:36:26 <blathijs> Rubidium: Btw, upgrading from Debian rc3 to openttd.org 1.0.0 doesn't work either, same error
13:36:47 <Rubidium> ah, shouldn't have added the Conflicts, that conflicts with Replaces
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13:42:42 <blathijs> Rubidium: Dunno, I thought it was obvious from reading the policy manual before, but now I don't exactly get the difference between the two uses of Replaces anymore
13:43:13 <blathijs> jordi: Any comments on that?
13:47:47 <blathijs> Rubidium: It seems aptitude handles the Conflicts line just fine, when I put the openttd.org version in a repository
13:48:15 <blathijs> Even when downgrading
13:52:11 <blathijs> Rubidium: Removing the Conflicts line just makes things more confusing
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13:52:48 <blathijs> Rubidium: It does install, but it keeps openttd-data around (since there are some files that aren't replaced, like stuff in /usr/share/doc/openttd-data and some directories in /usr/share/games/openttd/)
13:53:22 <blathijs> Let's ask #debian-devel
13:53:45 <Rubidium> so the 'current' package is 'better' :(
13:54:51 <Rubidium> and how to force the package building to perform the patch for openttd-wrapper?
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13:58:54 <blathijs> Rubidium: Using dpkg --auto-deconfigure does work
13:59:27 <blathijs> Rubidium: Which is what dpkg suggests when it fails
14:01:09 <Rubidium> now I only need to figure out how to get the openttd-wrapper patch applied when creating the package
14:01:25 <Rubidium> from just a source checkout + ln -s os/debian debian
14:03:46 <blathijs> Rubidium: Do you have quilt?
14:04:12 <Rubidium> blathijs: yes... tab completing words doesn't work :(
14:04:14 <planetmaker> what kind of openttd-wrapper patch is that you talk about?
14:04:36 <blathijs> Rubidium: Try running "QUILT_PATCHES=debian/patches quilt push -a" before building
14:04:59 <blathijs> planetmaker: It's a patch to make the .desktop file call openttd-wrapper instead of openttd
14:05:11 <blathijs> planetmaker: And the wrapper captures stderr and shows it if needed
14:05:39 <planetmaker> ah... so that even non-xterm users are able to capture that? Nice :-)
14:05:40 <blathijs> planetmaker: It's ugly (uses xmessage), but it beats silent failure :-)
14:05:58 <planetmaker> yup, very much so.
14:07:13 <blathijs> Rubidium: What do you use for building? Just calling dpkg-buildpackage?
14:08:16 <Rubidium> debian/rules binary (at the moment at least)
14:09:24 <blathijs> Rubidium: It seems dpkg-buildpackage doesn't do any patch application either, so that won't matter
14:10:50 <blathijs> Rubidium: Only dpkg-source does so, but then you need to build a source package and then extract it, since dpkg-source doesn't just seem to have a "only apply patches" command
14:10:57 <blathijs> Rubidium: So using quilt is probably best
14:12:56 <blathijs> Rubidium: If you want to minimize the diff, I'd still install everything into debian/tmp and just put a single line "debian/tmp" into openttd.install
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14:17:27 <Rubidium> yay... the package works
14:17:40 <Rubidium> now I only need to 'fix' the compile farm
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14:18:47 <blathijs> Rubidium: As for the replaces/conflicts thing, #debian-devel thinks it is intended to work like this (though they're not entirely sure) and don't know how to fix this in the package
14:19:10 <Rubidium> okay, then we'll leave it at conflicts + replaces
14:19:21 <Rubidium> and I'll mess with the CF after tonight's run
14:19:25 <blathijs> Rubidium: but I guess our users that are smart enough to run "dpkg -i" in a console are probably smart enough to add the --auto-deconfigure when dpkg suggests so
14:23:10 <Rubidium> okay, going from 1.0.0-1 to 1.1~svn-0 and back seems to go fine (for -> 1.1~svn-0 the --auto-deconfigure is needed)
14:23:41 <Rubidium> now some time for something else
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14:52:02 <Mazur> Is there a way to have a platform allow two trains to unload, one after the other?
14:52:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19572 /trunk/os/debian/ (14 files in 3 dirs): -Change: sync Debian packaging updates from Debian, but keep building a single package
14:52:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19573 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Fix (r19541): Special cargos did not appear at the refit list.
14:54:52 <Mazur> Looking on the web I did not find it can, so i suppose not.
14:55:32 <Mazur> Of course, leave a gap in hte station with a signal between.
14:57:42 <Mazur> Except they'll start stopping at the first signal again, of course.
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15:20:36 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19574 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Fix: graphs were not properly updated when going toggling keys (i.e. companies)
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16:10:13 <Mazur> Any comments? I saee the eight platform is not loading, and have not yet deciphered why.
16:10:15 <planetmaker> Mazur, you should seriously consider to open a thread about your findings in the tt-forums.
16:10:31 <planetmaker> Just not sure wheter screenshots or problems ;-)
16:10:53 <Mazur> Should I? I'd hardly expect to do any groundbreaking work here.
16:11:10 <Mazur> Only my first game, still.
16:12:09 <Mazur> planetmaker: Well, I can be a problem, I suppose.
16:12:29 <planetmaker> I don't know wether it's ground working ;-) But it might a) be easier to review, if coherently described in a single posting and b) fetch the attention of those people who like to deal with that - but which aren't always online
16:13:53 <Mazur> Is this a polite way to say: Shut up, this is not the right place, you're bothering us?
16:14:51 <planetmaker> not really :-) This is the IRC channel related to openttd, both playing and developing, so it's the right place :-)
16:15:08 * Rubidium votes for wrong refit
16:15:54 <planetmaker> But... looking at that station, Mazur - it's horribly inefficient.
16:18:21 <Mazur> I suppose so, but from the "far end"/"middle end"/"near end" option I surmised it might be possible to use one platform for two trains simultaniously, and this is the test case.
16:18:54 <Mazur> So initially I just built a double length station, to test it out.
16:19:40 <Mazur> It became quickly clear I'd jumpewd to the wrong conclusion.
16:19:58 <planetmaker> you can skip the lone entry and exit, if you like, though it cuts on your station's through-put
16:20:45 <Ammler> he, seems like moving DevZone to nginx solved our issues :-)
16:21:13 <planetmaker> (what you see in that image is actually 6 stations - as a single station or saw mill cannot accept the amount of wood which we shipped there :-P )
16:21:21 <planetmaker> Ammler, that's very good news :-)
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16:36:55 <Mazur> Interesting study material, planetmaker. I bookmarked them both, for when I understand signals better, as well.
16:37:23 <planetmaker> Mazur, rather bookmark our PublicServer archive ;-)
16:37:33 <planetmaker> It has ~170 games of that style
16:38:03 <Mazur> Seen a few the examples there, too.
16:38:25 <planetmaker> some call it insane, some have fun with it ;-)
16:38:47 <Mazur> For now I'm using this station as a test case, also for learning loading speeds.
16:38:52 <planetmaker> If I play alone, I build usually something in between ;-) Efficient but dynamically grown
16:39:09 <planetmaker> loading speed is given by the wagons.
16:39:26 <planetmaker> And only drastically slower, if the station is too short
16:39:52 <Mazur> I mean which platforms load fastest.
16:40:18 <Mazur> I've noticed a bias towards certain positions.
16:41:13 <planetmaker> It doesn't matter
16:41:31 <Mazur> If the production is to the side of the platforms, for instance, the one nearest fills way faster than the farthest.
16:42:02 <glx> some are good to test PF performance :)
16:42:12 <planetmaker> all station tiles are equal
16:42:40 <planetmaker> probably §1 of the declaration of independent stations or so :-P
16:42:52 <Ammler> [18:38] <planetmaker> some call it insane, some have fun with it <-- insane is fun :-P
16:42:58 <Mazur> You sure? I thought I'd quite often seen the last train to arrive be one of the first to leave. And most certainly the percentage filled goes faster.
16:43:30 <planetmaker> Mazur, the choice of which train gets loaded - that might be a function of the station tile. Dunno
16:43:42 <planetmaker> But the loading speed: I'm 99.5% sure that it doesn't matter.
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16:43:56 <planetmaker> The 0.5% might be some kind of transient and weired bug.
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16:44:39 <Ammler> glx, our current game is good to test pbs interval, we usually use 1, there we were able to drop cpu from 90 to 50% with rising it to 10
16:44:40 <Mazur> Not if there are no nearer trains, but in a full station, nearest gets filled first. Or so I thought to have seen.
16:45:41 <Ammler> the first time I saw a real game influenced from it
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16:54:51 <planetmaker> Mazur, I'm quite sure it's not nearest, but rather the one which occupies the tile with the lowest ID
16:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i would have guessed the train with the lowest ID...
16:57:44 <planetmaker> But I'm quite sure it does NOT depend upon the distance to the source of the cargo ;-)
16:58:04 <Eddi|zuHause> what a crazy idea :p
16:58:16 <Mazur> Well, that's what I'm trying to find out, by observation.
16:58:17 <planetmaker> which in the case of a station embedded within a town would be quite difficult to determine
16:59:14 <Mazur> Well, I just don't know, do I? :-) But I will.
17:01:02 <Mazur> Just as I will learn all the pitfalls, problems and benefits of using one type of signal over the other, where which type is best, in other words, how to really use them.
17:01:09 <planetmaker> Mazur, then start reading the source code ;-)
17:01:36 <planetmaker> that will most reliably tell you the priority for loading one train or another.
17:01:44 <Mazur> I'd rather not, I expect there is a lot of it.
17:01:58 <planetmaker> 30k lines or so ;-)
17:02:05 <Belugas> naaa... just a few lines...
17:02:22 <Mazur> And I prefer to postpone that until I understand the game mechanics better from playing.
17:02:29 <planetmaker> so... finally... BBQ is being heated :-)
17:02:37 <planetmaker> catch you later :-)
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17:02:53 * Mazur is also starting on dinner.
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17:11:09 * Belugas has finished his lunch during meeting-conference call
17:24:12 <ddfreyne> is it possible to irrigate land?
17:24:16 <ddfreyne> (probably a silly question)
17:24:35 <Eddi|zuHause> is this civilisation?
17:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> ddfreyne: what would irrigated land do to a transport company?
17:25:31 <ddfreyne> Eddi|zuHause: give me a little bit of space to fund another industry
17:26:03 <Eddi|zuHause> ddfreyne: what do you think irrigation means?
17:26:19 <ddfreyne> convert desert to green land
17:26:31 <ddfreyne> well, technically not irrigation, but you get the point, I hope
17:27:18 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that is only possible in the scenario editor
17:28:15 <ddfreyne> right, is what I thought
17:28:22 <ddfreyne> hence the (probably a silly question) :)
17:33:54 <Belugas> at least, you have the honnor of being the first to ask that question :)
17:34:40 <peter1138> yes, we need settlers, phalanx and other units
17:34:51 <peter1138> irigating and fortifying our territory
17:37:01 <Belugas> archers are considered as an army feature
17:37:07 <Eddi|zuHause> phalanx... sure... but the game can't handle B.C. dates...
17:37:26 <Belugas> and TTD is against any form of violenc, apart from trains creaching trunks
17:37:42 <glx> there were no trains at time so not a problem :)
17:39:32 * ddfreyne ships cannons to New Frentown
17:39:47 <Belugas> sipping is good, using is not :D
17:40:40 * andythenorth is upset that TTD people die in vehicle crashes
17:40:40 * ddfreyne sips on his cannon… mm, delicious
17:41:05 <ddfreyne> vehicle crashes? we’re talking war casualties here!
17:41:28 <glx> competition for transport is a war :)
17:41:32 * andythenorth is not talking war
17:41:56 * ddfreyne is a Nikon guy, really
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17:42:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i want cannons on my ship!
17:42:44 * Belugas was aiming for a D5000, but could not afford one. so got a 1000D instead
17:43:11 <Belugas> funny how they had the "D" reversed depending of the brand...
17:43:37 <Belugas> go Eddi|zuHause, go! Draw them nice and nifty!
17:44:41 <peter1138> Canon themselves switched the D a few times
17:44:50 * andythenorth is in a world of FAIL
17:45:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19575 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: estonian - 18 changes by Jaanus
17:45:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: hebrew - 13 changes by dnd_man
17:45:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: korean - 2 changes by junho2813
17:45:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 5 changes by 2rB
17:45:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: portuguese - 5 changes by JayCity
17:46:57 <Belugas> you're right, peter1138. i learned something today
17:47:55 <Belugas> EOS D2000, EOS D6000, EOS D30, EOS D60
17:48:07 <Belugas> everything else is xD
17:49:22 <Belugas> wooo... EOS D6000 : a whoopy 6 megapixel slr
17:49:31 <Nite_Owl> But are they all SLR's
17:49:55 <Nite_Owl> no matter where the D is ??
17:50:20 <aber> if prefer '0' | ('1'..'9') ('0' .. '9')*D
17:50:33 <Belugas> the D is just for Digital
17:54:23 <Belugas> pour some boiling oil!
17:54:59 <Nite_Owl> tough to pour from a one story home
17:55:11 <Nite_Owl> unless I clamber up on the roof
17:55:30 <Nite_Owl> while carrying a pot of hot oil
17:55:52 <Nite_Owl> would not the plastic melt\
17:56:43 <Nite_Owl> they will be gone soon enough - they never stick around for too long
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18:02:23 <Nite_Owl> I cannot get the tree that hangs over my car trimmed this time
18:02:56 <Nite_Owl> it would have been a perfect time too since my car is in the shop and not under the tree
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19:01:47 <Mazur> How does servicing work? I have a train last services in october 2310, we are now in may 2313, 2.6 years later, service interval is on 150 days, what gives?
19:02:48 <Nite_Owl> does the train have easy access on its route to a depot ?
19:03:12 <Mazur> Yes, at every station along the route twice, usually.
19:03:54 <Mazur> I have not put a service order in its list.
19:04:23 <Mazur> I'm not (yet) sending it manually, I wanted to check the automatics.
19:04:43 <Rubidium> have you disabled breakdowns?
19:04:49 <Nite_Owl> do you have "breakdowns" turned off ? do you have "no service if breakdowns turned off" on ?
19:05:11 <Mazur> I've not enabled it, more like.
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19:07:52 <Mazur> Yep, that was the bugger.
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19:08:13 <Mazur> No servicing is breakdowns are 0.
19:08:50 <Mazur> Nah, i'm still to green for that.
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19:09:40 <Nite_Owl> change it from within the saved game with the Advanced Settings
19:10:05 <Nite_Owl> just changing it in the cfg will only effect new games
19:10:22 <Mazur> If I start a new game, will the default settings or my altered settings be used?
19:10:46 <Nite_Owl> depends on where you made the changes
19:10:53 <Alberth> new games use settings from the main menu, existing games use settings from the stored game
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19:11:20 <Mazur> Through the interface. Guess I'll have to run through the config file, as well.
19:11:45 <Nite_Owl> the main menu will change the cfg
19:12:21 <Nite_Owl> I think it is on exit
19:12:24 <Mazur> Well, I do regularly exit.
19:13:17 <Mazur> I can;t read if my trains keep howling their mournful calls to me.
19:14:04 <Nite_Owl> so make the changes on the main menu, exit out of the game, go back into the game, and start a new game for the changes to take place
19:15:09 <Nite_Owl> otherwise make the changes on the Advanced Settings menu from within a saved game - which will only effect that saved game
19:28:42 <Mazur> Until you exit that saved game...
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19:29:28 <Nite_Owl> no - the changes will be saved with the game
19:29:51 <Nite_Owl> or within the saved game
19:31:47 <Mazur> Another weird thing: I have an engine only 5 years out of 20 old, yet it's reliability is listed as 0%? It does very long range 11 car coal hauling.
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19:34:28 <Anon7469> you play tycoon in network ?
19:34:52 <PeterT> Anon7469: You mean multiplayer?
19:35:19 <Anon7469> i want to taste it^^
19:35:31 <Anon7469> so many years i play this game
19:36:08 <Anon7469> but i didn't succeed in joining a lan
19:36:54 <Alberth> LAN means your local network
19:37:15 <Anon7469> sorry i mean to say multiplayer online
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19:37:48 <PeterT> why didn't you suceed?
19:37:53 <PeterT> what server, and what version?
19:37:57 <Alberth> MP on the Internet is done by selecting "Internet" instead of LAN
19:38:09 <Nite_Owl> Mazur: Reliability is based on the last time the engine was serviced
19:38:54 <Anon7469> i don' have the good OTTD
19:39:28 <PeterT> You need the same version as the server
19:39:29 <Nite_Owl> if you have been having trouble with servicing then that is why the reliability is 0%
19:40:17 <Nite_Owl> without breakdowns turned on reliability becomes a non issue
19:41:44 <Mazur> Ah, thanks, Nit_Owl, so I should just add servicing to that groups orders. Or lower their service interval.
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19:42:09 <PeterT> Anon7469: sort by compatibility
19:42:28 <PeterT> it will only show servers that have the same version as you
19:43:21 <Anon7469> is it the red light ?
19:43:39 <PeterT> Hit the little button about the flags
19:44:58 <PeterT> You downloaded 1.0.0 and installed it, right?
19:45:27 <Nite_Owl> Mazur: Actually you could raise the service interval since it really does not matter
19:45:29 <PeterT> because you can't join 0.6.0 servers if there are none
19:47:15 <Nite_Owl> the main reason to keep the "turn off servicing if breakdowns are set to none" setting on is so that you can still use the auto replacement feature
19:47:33 <Anon7469> this is so beautiful
19:50:51 <Nite_Owl> I play with breakdowns set to none - servicing on when breakdowns are set to none - vehicle servicing set to 365 days (once a year) - and I use go to depot orders when maintenance is needed
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20:05:10 <peter1138> hmm, newzbin still running, heh
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20:10:06 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19576 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_gui.cpp settings.cpp settings_func.h): -Codechange: Unduplicating parse_intlist().
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20:24:18 <moot> So I understand the basics of the game, but I can't seem to make any profits. I start with a hanful of bus stations in the three or so biggest cities, but my profits never amount to more than 3k a year, is there something I'm missing?
20:24:44 <moot> hm, okay, that's really vague
20:24:57 <Alberth> buses are not the most profitable way of making money
20:25:29 <moot> Obviously. I just figured I should start small
20:26:33 <Nite_Owl> coal mines to power plants with trains at approx. 60 to 90 tiles distance
20:26:47 <Alberth> coal with a train is better, or a long airplane connection
20:28:14 <Alberth> if you like pax, you can do a train service between two cities, but you need a lot of trains for a regular service
20:28:14 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r19577 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_gui.cpp settings.cpp settings_func.h): -Codechange: apply coding style to names of functions in settings.cpp
20:28:54 <Alberth> especially in the beginning when the engines are slow
20:30:01 <Alberth> under 'graphs' there is a 'cargo payment' window that shows how much you get for each type of cargo
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20:32:57 <TrueBrain> orudge: did the tt-forums bandwidth increased with our /.?
20:35:33 <moot> Managed to crash trains within the first five minutes
20:36:02 <moot> Not yet. I've never run a line with more than one train on it
20:36:11 <moot> hell, I haven't even been playing for a full day
20:36:46 <Alberth> the 'ignore signal' button tends to be dangerous :p
20:37:30 <moot> I'm still working on setting up a business that doesn't go bankrupt in the first decade
20:37:38 <moot> haven't even begun to touch signals
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21:00:22 <sbizna> is there already an OSX build of 1.0.0 floating around?
21:00:44 <PeterT> General OpenTTD forums
21:01:03 <sbizna> is there a reason it's not on the download page?
21:02:05 <PeterT> I asked for that topic to be sticked, and yet people don't see it.
21:02:46 <sbizna> I just put some time into building one of my own, when I could've saved it if I'd Googled a litte harder
21:03:14 <sbizna> I knew it didn't have a Mac dev
21:03:28 <sbizna> mine runs okay on Snow Leopard
21:03:35 <__ln__> does that version contain the original data files?
21:04:19 <sbizna> I smooshed the OpenGFX and OpenSFX data files into it
21:06:11 <sbizna> I should be more specific... by "runs okay" I mean "starts up..." I haven't stress tested it yet.
21:09:07 <andythenorth> I have been building my own Mac nightlies for ages (10.5). I have few problems
21:15:13 <moot> finally have a profit margin
21:15:22 <moot> I just needed the right start
21:15:43 <andythenorth> coal is the money maker in the standard game
21:15:57 <andythenorth> or passengers between two cities with about 1,000 inhabitants
21:16:42 <ddfreyne> I funded two industries (£4M) and still make a yearly profit now :)
21:18:29 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r19578 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Codechange: do not accept commas at invalid places in ParseIntList()
21:19:52 <planetmaker> Rubidium, you might want to grab the desync data
21:22:23 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r19579 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Codechange: auto-raise 'Enable/Disable all' buttons in the Cargo payment rates window
21:23:02 <ddfreyne> moot: in my experience, cargo types don’t matter that much… the further away source and destination are, the bigger the pay (but the longer it is under way, the lower the pay, so train speed matters)
21:23:15 <planetmaker> ~25 minutes ago one occured.
21:24:01 <ddfreyne> moot: when using multiple trains, build two parallel tracks in opposite directions and use basic signals for each direction… stations need signals to; they’re a bit more advanced
21:24:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r19580 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: auto-raise 'Enable/Disable all' buttons in the Smallmap window
21:24:40 <Rubidium> planetmaker: lovely... only after (almost) 2 hours
21:24:55 <planetmaker> seems to take (always) that long
21:25:01 <planetmaker> but not 100% sure
21:25:44 <Rubidium> for a server running 6.5 hours
21:25:59 <planetmaker> Though perception with single - digit number of cases can be easily caused by bad statistics
21:26:34 <Rubidium> @calc (747946 - 738945)/74
21:26:34 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 121.635135135
21:26:45 <Rubidium> @calc (747946 - 738945)
21:27:10 <Rubidium> 9000 days, that's a lot
21:30:03 <Rubidium> [2010-04-07 22:53:46] cmd: 000b6998; 00000023; d; 000000; 00000004; 00000000; a880043;
21:30:10 <Rubidium> last command before the desync
21:30:24 <fjb> ddfreyne: That are the exit Signals for the platforms.
21:31:01 <ddfreyne> fjb: with path signals those should not be necessary, should they? it’s already a path-signalled block, after all
21:31:14 <Rubidium> [2010-04-06 23:01:06] cmd: 000b10c6; 00000015; 6; 000000; 0000000e; 00000000; a880043;
21:31:24 <Rubidium> that's from just before the other desync
21:31:32 <Eddi|zuHause> ddfreyne: they become necessary in case you want to extend the line on the other end
21:31:46 <ddfreyne> Eddi|zuHause: ahh! good point, thanks
21:31:57 <moot> I've yet to wrap my mind around signals
21:32:26 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, they look better
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21:32:40 <fjb> Path signals are easy. Throw them in where a waiting train would not block anything important.
21:33:15 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r19581 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Codechange: auto-raise 'All facilities/cargos' buttons in the Station list window
21:33:29 <ddfreyne> path signals are very powerful… i love them for terminus stations
21:34:02 <planetmaker> Rubidium, what does that tell me? I'm not quite into reading those command logs yet...
21:34:03 <ddfreyne> terminus stations with lots and lots of tracks and lots of entries/exits :)
21:34:40 <planetmaker> 00000000 a880043 is the same...
21:36:15 *** Hirundo is now known as Jasper
21:36:32 *** Jasper is now known as Hirundo
21:37:03 <Nite_Owl> Time to fly - later all
21:37:51 <Rubidium> planetmaker: same command, only different company taking over different company
21:38:11 <Rubidium> planetmaker: however, the a880043 happens only once in both logs
21:38:21 <Rubidium> planetmaker: and only shortly before the desync
21:38:46 <Rubidium> and you with #openttdcoop not having problems with it is simply because you never go bankrupt
21:40:31 <Eddi|zuHause> do you desync-debug trunk or cargodist?
21:40:35 <Rubidium> although I now realise that some useful information is missing in commands-out.log
21:41:53 * AC6000 sneaks in and takes a seat
21:42:19 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: neither
21:46:15 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: 1.0
21:48:04 <planetmaker> not bad albeit quite busy :-)
21:49:16 <AC6000> so am i, i have to paint a 7 1/2" gauge locomotive and the livery is a pain to do...
21:52:44 <planetmaker> please fit me in as I don't recall: what set do you paint that for?
21:52:58 <planetmaker> in any case it looks like a nice engine :-)
21:54:21 <planetmaker> uhm... ... I'm probably subject to amnesia as it seems that I should know that you paint those engines... but I don't ;-)
21:55:02 <AC6000> oh, well its my first time painting one :P
21:55:21 <AC6000> it gunna be real fun to do the logo <_<
21:56:01 <Eddi|zuHause> how much is 7 1/2" in real measures?
21:56:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that is certainly not much :)
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21:56:59 <planetmaker> 2.25m is too much. Doesn't make sense...
21:57:14 <planetmaker> or isn't that the rail size?
21:57:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds about right
21:57:57 <Eddi|zuHause> because 1:87 is about 16mm gauge
21:58:00 <AC6000> and its gunna be fun to lug a 700 lbs loco around the shop on a dolly ._.
21:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause> 1435mm or something is standard gauge
22:00:10 <planetmaker> two horse backs ;-)
22:00:41 <Eddi|zuHause> 4' 8.5" (what a weird measure)
22:01:23 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 16.4942528736
22:01:41 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 11.9583333333
22:01:46 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1435/120*87
22:01:46 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1040.375
22:02:11 <aber> the question is, who invented a standard for horse backs...
22:02:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the same guys that also invented a standard for horse power...
22:04:18 <glx> and the fun when you need to change bogie to cross a frontier ;)
22:04:39 <Eddi|zuHause> they do that in Brest ;)
22:04:53 <Eddi|zuHause> they raise the whole train at the station
22:05:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and put the new gauge bogies underneath
22:05:48 <Eddi|zuHause> from france to spain they had variable axles, i think
22:05:53 <__ln__> in soviet russia the gauge is 1520mm though
22:06:44 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany the new tracks are also slightly wider, when the trains are supposed to go faster
22:09:53 <aber> if a horse goes faster, it needs more space
22:10:35 <aber> its harder to coordinate the legs
22:13:02 <Eddi|zuHause> these damn horses...
22:14:13 <AC6000> so, anyone up for a "friendly" game of ottd? :P
22:14:25 <TrueBrain> can I bring my gun?
22:15:08 <AC6000> and one quick question...
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22:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "shoot first, ask later"
22:16:25 <AC6000> Infrastructure sharing or no Infrastructure sharing? :P
22:17:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that wasn't quick at all...
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22:31:22 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19582 /extra/website/frontpage/templates/frontpage/download.html: [Website] -Change: mention mirror of OpenGFX, OpenSFX and OpenMSX downloads
22:38:09 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19583 /extra/website/ (5 files in 5 dirs): [Website] -Change: some minor website changes that have accumulated over time
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22:41:30 <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to "elementary" commits? :p
22:42:26 <Rubidium> me not really having a clue what changes belong together and which don't
22:42:49 <Rubidium> nor having a clue what over half of the changes tries to fix
22:46:04 <TrueBrain> and I have no clue how to commit from that machine :p
22:46:27 <TrueBrain> (and I am WAY too lazy to make a patch and commit it on my workstation :p)
22:52:12 <orudge> TrueBrain: we were on slashdot, eh? I hadn't noticed
22:52:45 <orudge> higher bandwidth yesterday, indeed
22:52:50 <orudge> albeit not significantly
22:53:05 <TrueBrain> was just checking ;)
22:53:10 <orudge> how about on openttd.org?
22:53:31 <Rubidium> what is tt-forums' monthly (or daily) bandwidth use?
22:54:12 <Rubidium> orudge: little under 215 GiB yesterday (138 for the mirrors, 77 for the main server)
22:54:30 <orudge> generally around 230GB of HTTP bandwidth per month for tt-forums
22:54:33 <orudge> Rubidium: and what's normal these days?
22:54:41 <orudge> when not on slashdot :)
22:55:13 <Rubidium> orudge: 600-700 GiB a month for the main server
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22:57:21 <Rubidium> although some 10 GiB a day (little less than half of total) of that was BaNaNaS and with 1.0.0 BaNaNaS goes mostly over the mirrors. Currently at about 85% of BaNaNaS downloads goes over the mirrors.
22:57:52 <Rubidium> so that would mean 400 GiB for this month could be seen as the "base-line"
22:58:01 <Rubidium> for the main server that is
22:58:30 <TrueBrain> yesterday we have twice as much hits on the httpd, and in fact everything just doubled for a good portion of the day
22:58:36 <Rubidium> first six days did 275 GiB and today seems to be quite busy too
22:59:06 <TrueBrain> so we finally produce more bandwidth than tt-forums ;)
22:59:36 <Rubidium> of which ~200 GiB was pure HTTP traffic for the main server
22:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause> orudge: while you are here, i have an annoying problem in the forum
23:00:10 <Eddi|zuHause> orudge: i turned off images in the forum preferences, but now when i click on an attachment, it doesn't have a mime type set
23:00:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so it doesn't open in the image viewer
23:00:25 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: finally? We have more than 230 GiB a month for quite a while already; was 800 GiB over April 2009
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continue to next day ⏵
