IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-02-24
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07:20:31 <kd5pbo> Will OpenTTD look for the graphics files if I run it as a dedicated server?
07:25:32 <kd5pbo> What's in sample.cat, anyways?
07:37:09 <planetmaker> and the "graphics" files are e.g. also used for map generation.
07:37:21 <kd5pbo> planetmaker: Oh. Thanks.
07:39:17 <planetmaker> height maps are after all also graphics ;-)
07:40:44 <kd5pbo> Wait, why would a dedicated server need sounds?
07:40:51 <kd5pbo> I thought that was client-side.
07:41:09 <planetmaker> it doesn't really need them. You could use the NoSounds baseset
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07:41:49 <planetmaker> kd5pbo: the basic files required to have OpenTTD run
07:41:59 <planetmaker> e.g. a sound set and a graphics set
07:42:44 <planetmaker> though OpenMSX sometimes is called music "base set", too - but that's not required anywhere
07:43:33 <planetmaker> "Base set" is the "B" in BaNaNaS ;-)
07:44:28 <kd5pbo> Ok, I give up. Where do I find it?
07:45:50 <planetmaker> bananas.openttd.org?
07:46:08 <planetmaker> Terkhen: thanks :-)
07:47:09 <kd5pbo> Better to download the sources and compile them myself, or does it matter?
07:47:45 <planetmaker> yes. It matters in the work you put in.
07:48:02 <kd5pbo> Yeah, but would I gain anything by compiling myself?
07:50:30 <planetmaker> and possibly means to find future problems and possibly even solve them yourself
07:50:54 * planetmaker likes logic applied in unexpected cases ;-)
07:52:10 <planetmaker> kd5pbo: unless you want to modify a sound, music or graphics set there's no point to compile it yourself
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08:05:39 <dihedral> planetmaker: hehe - i know a bunch of those people :-D
08:07:42 <dihedral> < planetmaker> kd5pbo: unless you want to modify a sound, music or graphics set there's no point to compile it yourself
08:08:03 <dihedral> i know a bunch of people who compile themselves where there is never a need too
08:08:07 * planetmaker also knows such people
08:08:11 <dihedral> a handfull of those guys run gentoo :-D
08:08:36 <planetmaker> but those people don't ask "what is catcodec" ;-)
08:08:48 <dihedral> no - they just emerge and man it :-P
08:08:53 <dihedral> at least they try to
08:11:17 <planetmaker> but then, merging and adding man is kind of a modification ;-)
08:13:18 <Rubidium> dihedral: is catcodec actually in gentoo?
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08:22:09 <dihedral> Rubidium: 09:08 < dihedral> at least they try to
08:23:11 <dihedral> there is bound to be some ebuild somewhere :-P
08:31:00 <Rubidium> dihedral: like the opengfx ebuild that just downloads the compiled opengfx?
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08:41:28 <planetmaker> hm, nice, two new prospective pieces of music for OpenMSX :-)
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08:56:48 <notjotham> hi, is it possible to swap wagons automatically during a route?
08:58:42 <notjotham> oh man, choice, that's exactly what i wanted
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09:08:38 <notjotham> refit seems to be greyed out, and no cargos are in the list
09:08:52 <planetmaker> It depends on the wagons
09:08:58 <planetmaker> Not every wagon can be refitted.
09:09:16 <planetmaker> I'm not sure, might be that default wagons cannot be refitted at all.
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09:12:04 <IPG> may you can use nars or dbsetxl included refittable wagons
09:12:57 <notjotham> my friends and i seem to just build coal runs
09:13:06 <notjotham> it's pretty unimaginative
09:13:16 <notjotham> what kind of runs do you guys find more enjoyable to tweak/build
09:17:52 <planetmaker> my personal favourites are games like #132 where we have a common main line and different (groups of) people develop different parts of the map with their own local networks
09:18:05 <planetmaker> (the image shows my ICE terminal :-P )
09:19:04 <notjotham> we're just using the rc1 with no fancy additions, so i guess no cargo areas
09:19:35 <planetmaker> well... "fancy" additions in that case are only the Japanese set newgrfs
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09:51:23 <Pikka> Eddi|zuHause: patch works great, thanks :D
10:05:21 <JVassie^> Pikka, teach me how to nfo
10:09:41 <Pikka> any questions, feel free to ask :P
10:10:06 <JVassie^> Im trying to do a remake of the British Stations .grf
10:10:10 <JVassie^> with more realistic layouts
10:10:24 <Pikka> ah, stations.. one thing I've never done much with yet :P
10:10:54 <JVassie^> mind you, the swiss set aint exactly finished either
10:13:31 <JVassie^> with a moderate code/programmer background
10:13:38 <JVassie^> nfo shouldnt be too hard i reckon
10:14:01 <JVassie^> compared to say, java?
10:14:47 <Pikka> mostly because nfo is a very simple language, and there's generally exactly one way to do any given thing.
10:15:12 <Pikka> and there's relatively little overhead, no structural stuff or anything like that
10:15:55 <planetmaker> and then the easy-to-remember 'keywords' come into play ;-)
10:16:24 <Pikka> planetmaker: you use a lot of comments
10:16:36 <planetmaker> Pikka, sure I do :-)
10:16:42 <Pikka> and keep the wiki open at all times :P
10:16:47 <planetmaker> But it doesn't help me much with not yet written code ;-)
10:17:07 <planetmaker> And yes, when I code NFO seriously I have like 6 wiki windows open at least :-)
10:17:14 <JVassie^> I wouldnt dare attempt it without the wiki open
10:17:17 <Pikka> well, once you've written the code for one vehicle, it's all just copypasta :)
10:17:25 <planetmaker> indeed. Very true
10:17:38 <JVassie^> planetmaker, you coded any stations before?
10:17:41 <planetmaker> actually... I write it once and include the file several times ;-)
10:18:21 <planetmaker> JVassie^, the devzone has the code for some station sets, though
10:18:28 <planetmaker> You might try to look at it.
10:18:36 <JVassie^> [sweet voice] Link pls?
10:18:37 <planetmaker> I don't know how much it is commented and how good
10:19:29 <JVassie^> mind you i could try the nfo of the .grf im trying to update :p
10:19:41 <planetmaker> dutch stations and modern stations are there
10:20:02 <planetmaker> uh... de-compiled NFO is not the most readable one.
10:20:27 <JVassie^> basically im trying to code something whereby there isnt platform between each piece of track
10:21:03 * TrueBrain loves latest XKCD :)
10:21:18 <JVassie^> where the |z| is paltform
10:21:40 <notjotham> are there any mods that change depots into something that looks more like a works yard?
10:21:48 <notjotham> be nice if they had to bet he same length as trains etc
10:24:11 <JVassie^> the grf im using only has 441 sprites
10:24:28 <JVassie^> (according to grfcodec)
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10:38:17 <JVassie^> looking through modernstations nfo now
10:39:56 <JVassie^> ever so slightly confusing
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10:46:40 <JVassie^> is compression value of 09 the norm?
10:49:07 <JVassie^> Pikka, apologies if this is a silly question :p
10:49:13 <JVassie^> When building up a .pcx from scratch
10:49:28 <JVassie^> Do I need to write the blue numbers in myself?
10:49:34 <JVassie^> leave space for them?
10:57:31 <JVassie^> XeryusTC, you dont happen to be around do you?
10:57:58 <JVassie^> are you free to have a quickchat about some of your nfo pls?
10:58:24 <JVassie^> ok, im looking at the alderville_station.nfo
10:58:52 <JVassie^> at the end of each sprite declaration
10:59:01 <JVassie^> you have something like this
10:59:02 <JVassie^> / Sprite 0, ID 42D, Platform (north)
10:59:25 <JVassie^> basically, how are you arriving at ID 42D?
10:59:54 <JVassie^> did you just pick it randomly as the start point?
10:59:58 <XeryusTC> it is the id at which station sprites start
11:00:16 <JVassie^> so im making a remake of the british stations grf
11:00:27 <JVassie^> however my nfo iskinda limited
11:00:41 <JVassie^> so sorry for the nooby questions :p
11:01:27 <JVassie^> also btw, im a little confusedregarding xrel and yrel
11:01:30 <XeryusTC> having the wiki at hand is very useful when coding NFO
11:01:41 <JVassie^> the bit i found on the tutorial isnt very helpful IMO
11:01:47 <JVassie^> aye i have several wiki pages open :p
11:02:18 <XeryusTC> xrel and yrel are used by OTTD and TTDP to align the sprite properly to its bounding box.
11:02:30 <JVassie^> 1 sprites\alderville.pcx 1 7 09 24 42 -31 -3 // Sprite 0, ID 42D, Platform (north)
11:02:32 <XeryusTC> xrel relates to the x offset for the sprite, and yrel for the yoffset
11:02:55 <dihedral> \o/ XeryusTC you are alive :-P
11:02:57 <XeryusTC> -31 -3 means that the sprite gets moved 31 pixels to the left and 3 pixels up
11:03:23 <JVassie^> using that page as a basis for the bounding box?
11:04:24 <XeryusTC> use the same as i linked too
11:05:24 <XeryusTC> basicly you should read everything in the action 0 :o
11:05:50 <JVassie^> im still declaring sprites, let alone an action 0 yet
11:05:56 <XeryusTC> well, not everything, just the things which are needed to define basic stations
11:06:33 <XeryusTC> so property 08, 09, 0B (if you wish to use callbacks), OC, 0D are very useful, 11 and 14 too
11:06:47 <JVassie^> righteo, will look into them :)
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11:09:29 * JVassie^ shall try your values of x and y rel and see how it looks xD
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11:11:16 <XeryusTC> what i've found is that sprites covering an entire tile need an xrel of -31 and an yrel equal to the height of their bounding box
11:11:44 <JVassie^> so -3 because the platform is 3 pixels high?
11:12:02 <XeryusTC> however, platforms generally have weird x and y rels :o
11:12:04 <JVassie^> where is it measured from, the topmost corner of the sprite?
11:12:36 <XeryusTC> i dont know, you usually have to find it through experiment
11:12:52 <XeryusTC> TTDP has a useful feature for it, it allows you to change the x and yrel while in game
11:13:16 <JVassie^> so in theory, if a platform is the same size (and same rotation) it would have the same xrel and yrel
11:13:41 <XeryusTC> xrel and yrel is mostly affected by the size of the sprite
11:14:15 <XeryusTC> IIRC the sprite gets drawn with its topleft corner in the middle of the bounding box
11:14:46 <XeryusTC> or the northmost corner of the bounding box (north being up in this case, not the openttdcoop compass)
11:15:00 <XeryusTC> i use the openttdcoop compass almost everywhere :P
11:18:10 <JVassie^> omg ivedone 4 sprite declarations, i feel prouf of myself xD
11:19:55 <JVassie^> now time to do an action 0
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11:20:14 <PeterT> You're coding, JVassie^?
11:20:28 <JVassie^> BritishStations Set v2
11:21:11 <JVassie^> think im calling it Modular Stations though
11:24:18 <XeryusTC> hmm, i have got a Modern Station Set
11:25:31 <Pikka> <JVassie^> Do I need to write the blue numbers in myself? <- no you don't. :P sorry, was at dinner.
11:25:55 <Pikka> you can arrange your sprites anyhow you like. you can have every sprite as a seperate .pcx file if you want.
11:29:55 <XeryusTC> Pikka: that would be quite silly imo, as grfcodec needs to parse every pcx file, and every file needs to keep to the x4 pixels constraint etc
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11:39:15 <Gorillagram> I do, for regular hand-drawn graphics, keep every vehicle, industry, etc as a seperate pcx, though.
11:47:54 <JVassie^> XeryusTC, how hard is it do you know to do something like the CanSet do for the buffers?
11:48:13 <JVassie^> And display different facing sprites depending on which sides it has station/track tiles
11:48:19 <XeryusTC> not too hard, i have used it in the dutchset too, although it is a bit buggy :o
11:48:30 <XeryusTC> the canset does it better
11:48:39 <JVassie^> Basically, i'd like to do somethign similar with platform ends (sloping bits)
11:48:47 <JVassie^> and point them down towards track
11:48:53 <JVassie^> easier than having a south and a north
11:49:09 <XeryusTC> people can also build sloping bits in the middle (if you have slopes like the industrial set's ramps)
11:49:23 <JVassie^> fortunately, this is pax only :p
11:50:09 <XeryusTC> i know, but people will always use stuff as it was not intended to be used
11:50:40 <JVassie^> basically, it should either look like
11:51:07 <JVassie^> and if they try to do =\= it will change it to === automagically
11:51:25 <JVassie^> thats far down the line though
11:51:31 <JVassie^> still working on first action 0
11:55:17 <JVassie^> XeryusTC, your first action 0
11:55:17 <JVassie^> 1 * 10 00 04 0A 01 ID_ALDERVILLE_COURT 08 MODERN_STATIONS // Put the station in the "Modern stations" class
11:56:01 <XeryusTC> 0x0A properties, 1 ID, ID_ALDERVILL_COURT is specified elsewhere
11:56:11 <XeryusTC> then come the properties, starting with 08
11:56:22 <JVassie^> which takes a string?
11:56:28 <JVassie^> so i could MODULAR_STATIONS in?
11:56:47 <XeryusTC> no, MODER_STATIONS is defined in the same file as ID_ALDERVILLE_COURT
11:57:01 <XeryusTC> you should replace it with a 4 byte string
11:57:31 <XeryusTC> whatever you want to use as the short name for your newgrfs
11:57:53 <JVassie^> so for example, brstatsw.nfo means short name of brstatsw
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11:59:34 <planetmaker> <XeryusTC> you should replace it with a 4 byte string <-- why?
11:59:55 <JVassie^> oh i see what youve done
12:00:01 <JVassie^> in the modern_set.nfo file
12:00:07 <XeryusTC> planetmaker: because that is what the nfo specs say :P and i suspect JVassie^ isn't using a makefile atm :o
12:00:07 <JVassie^> #define MODERN_STATIONS "MSTS"
12:00:31 <JVassie^> #define ID_ALDERVILLE_COURT 07
12:00:48 <planetmaker> oh... the station classes you mean? yeah
12:01:11 <planetmaker> I guess so at least. I never looked at stations ;-)
12:01:28 * JVassie^ is reading the makefile file intro
12:01:31 <JVassie^> making more sense now
12:02:08 <JVassie^> so doing it makefile way is better?
12:02:37 <JVassie^> for someone who is new to it all
12:02:40 <planetmaker> depends :-) I prefer it.
12:02:55 <planetmaker> But it needs you being at least moderately comfortable with make, too
12:03:03 <JVassie^> i didnt go down the route of makefile
12:03:10 <JVassie^> how would i do the #define's in the same .nfo file
12:03:27 <XeryusTC> planetmaker: i just ran your Makefile for newgrfs for the first time, and it decided to delete all my .pcx files :s
12:03:48 <planetmaker> XeryusTC, that's bad. you probably used it wrongly then ;-)
12:03:59 <planetmaker> there are a few file names which clean will delete.
12:04:28 <planetmaker> that dir should stay un-touched
12:04:39 <planetmaker> and I've never seen it being deleted in any project
12:04:58 <XeryusTC> or does it start to behave odd when you have your nfo files in the same dir as the makefile?
12:05:03 <planetmaker> But in order to tell *what* went wrong, I'd need to look at the files you used
12:05:26 <planetmaker> XeryusTC, that might be. It expects the a dir called sprites/nfo
12:05:35 <planetmaker> At least by default
12:05:40 <XeryusTC> i know, and thus i edited it to ./ :P
12:06:10 <planetmaker> yes, I assume then it may go wrong.
12:07:18 <JVassie^> asked for that i guess
12:08:01 <planetmaker> XeryusTC, it was designed with a structure in mind. Misusing it may have side effects :-P
12:08:17 <planetmaker> Any case, I shall bear that in mind when I re-write the Makefiles
12:08:22 <XeryusTC> i have a structure, it's just different :P
12:08:38 <planetmaker> see. And make tells you it's wrong
12:09:14 <JVassie^> XeryusTC, any idea how to do defines within the same nfo file without using makefile pls? :)
12:09:30 <XeryusTC> you need to use makefiles
12:09:34 <XeryusTC> as it relies on gcc :P
12:09:43 <JVassie^> probably asking thewrong thing then
12:10:13 <JVassie^> how would I go about setting a name for the tile and which class it fits into without using makefile?
12:10:36 <planetmaker> oh, tile, not title.
12:10:40 <planetmaker> another action then.
12:10:54 <JVassie^> that confused me more :(
12:11:12 <JVassie^> got an action 8 done already
12:11:17 <planetmaker> instead of the thing you defined somewhere else you have to put it into the same place
12:14:08 <DaleStan> <JVassie^> XeryusTC, any idea how to do defines within the same nfo file without using makefile pls? :) <-- Run it through gcc manually.
12:15:06 <JVassie^> A typical DaleStan answer
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12:17:24 <Ammler> JVassie^: I use simple bash for my mini grs
12:17:36 <Ammler> could also work with batch :-)
12:22:46 <JVassie^> this code: "0C FE 0D FB"
12:22:59 <JVassie^> means that the size may only be 1x3
12:23:53 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie^: if you want to use "#define" in an .nfo file, you have to run "cpp nfo-file > second-nfo-file" to resolve the defines
12:24:10 * JVassie^ isnt going down the route of #define
12:24:17 <JVassie^> too advanced for me atm
12:24:31 <JVassie^> still struggling with an action0 ;)
12:24:38 <XeryusTC> then it only runs the preprocessor :P
12:24:50 <Eddi|zuHause> XeryusTC: yes, cpp is the preprocessor ;)
12:25:19 <JVassie^> XeryusTC, if its a bit mask for properties 0C and 0D
12:25:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you can use other macro languages, like MB appears to use m4
12:25:36 <JVassie^> how did you get 251 and 254?
12:25:57 <XeryusTC> you leave some bits out
12:26:10 <JVassie^> if i wanted to set any length
12:26:14 <XeryusTC> every bit set is disabling a x or y button in the build window IIRC
12:26:16 <JVassie^> but width of only 2 or 4
12:26:26 <JVassie^> thats what the spec says
12:26:32 <XeryusTC> for any length you can leave the entire property out
12:26:44 <XeryusTC> you dont need to define both 0C and 0D
12:27:08 <JVassie^> so in this case i just need 0C for # of platforms
12:27:21 <JVassie^> and then disable 1, 3, 5, 6 and 7
12:27:50 <XeryusTC> although OTTD doesn't listen to 7+ :s
12:28:37 <JVassie^> 1 + 4 + 10 + 20 + 40 + 80?
12:28:59 <XeryusTC> i just go by bits :P
12:30:22 <XeryusTC> that is what you would want to end up with
12:30:33 <XeryusTC> that is, if a bit set is disabling that button
12:31:06 <JVassie^> F5 seems way to high if just adding bit values up?
12:31:16 <JVassie^> unless im confused about how the bit mask works
12:31:38 <JVassie^> bit 0, 1 width, value 1, correct?
12:31:47 <XeryusTC> well, i find translating from bits to hex easier
12:32:06 <XeryusTC> JVassie^> 1 + 4 + 10 + 20 + 40 + 80? <- you use hex btw, but added them in decimal
12:32:12 <XeryusTC> that might be your problem :P
12:32:44 <XeryusTC> adding those in hex also leads to F5 :D
12:33:18 <JVassie^> i thought the values were in dec
12:33:25 <JVassie^> lesson learnt on that count :p
12:33:31 <XeryusTC> that's why i prefer to think in hex mostly while coding nfo :P
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12:35:01 <JVassie^> only need properties 08 and oC i think
12:35:05 <JVassie^> for a basic bit of platform
12:35:51 <XeryusTC> and 09 if you wish to use custom sprites
12:36:16 <XeryusTC> but it might be that you can just use the last action 1 block without specifying property 09, not entirely sure
12:36:32 <XeryusTC> as action 1 is refered to by action 2 via action 3
12:37:19 <XeryusTC> but that is where knowledge turns to just do what you've learned ;) i dont understand the action chain fully
12:37:36 <JVassie^> if im defining 4 directions, i just need 09 04 followed by the sprite tiles themselves?
12:38:23 <XeryusTC> you only define 2 directions, times the different amount of tiles you want to define
12:38:52 <XeryusTC> but ttdp crashes if you only define two tiles (one for each direction) as it needs tile 3 and 4 too
12:38:55 <JVassie^> 3 tiles for the court bit
12:39:21 <XeryusTC> *2 sides in this case
12:39:39 <XeryusTC> i think, dont know if i'm thinking about the same alderville :P
12:39:54 <JVassie^> the court is on both sides
12:40:09 <JVassie^> where i want the platforms to appear like this
12:40:20 <JVassie^> ie only on the outer edges
12:40:40 <XeryusTC> hmm, that is quite complex for the first platform already, as it needs a bit of varaction2
12:40:58 <XeryusTC> but you'd need to define 2 tiles times 2 directions indeed
12:41:12 <JVassie^> platform on both sides of each track
12:41:21 <XeryusTC> but the alderville code does the same thing, plus a bit extra for the second platform from the top
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12:42:19 <JVassie^> no chance you fancy coding this is there? xD
12:42:40 <XeryusTC> not really, i'm trying to fix the modern set for a release currently :P
12:43:07 <JVassie^> thats the pic im using to referencewith btw
12:43:10 <XeryusTC> (which will take all day i guess)
12:46:19 <JVassie^> thats some mockups I did of a couple of possible layouts
12:46:27 <JVassie^> good thing is most sprites are already done
12:46:34 <JVassie^> they just need coding in a different way :p
12:48:04 <XeryusTC> oh, there is a small problem with the roof imo if you code it like that, but that is purely astetics
12:48:16 <JVassie^> what sort of problem?
12:48:23 <JVassie^> and which picture? the middle one?
12:48:36 <XeryusTC> the girders crossing the hall have glass in them
12:48:54 <peter1138> they do in the mockup as well
12:49:07 <JVassie^> i just havent put the glass in
12:49:10 <XeryusTC> yes, that's what i meant
12:49:21 <XeryusTC> but it would require some special coding to prevent that
12:49:25 <XeryusTC> making it even harder :P
12:49:28 <peter1138> you can do it with newgrfs
12:49:39 <JVassie^> if you look at the bottom right picture
12:49:46 <JVassie^> thats how the roof would look
12:49:58 <JVassie^> the only difference is the arrangement of the platform underneath
12:50:13 <JVassie^> the set is basically trying to give more options regarding platform layout
12:50:15 <XeryusTC> JVassie^: yes, and that roof has glass in the cross girders in the hall, while irl it is only at the front and rear girders
12:50:26 <JVassie^> XeryusTC, ah ok i see what you mean
12:50:30 <JVassie^> it doesnt look too bad IMO
12:50:35 <XeryusTC> but well, that is up to personal taste
12:50:48 <JVassie^> a perfect version would get rid of the middle ones
12:50:52 <JVassie^> regarding the layout
12:50:57 <JVassie^> for most platform pieces
12:51:26 <XeryusTC> but well, it comes somewhat near the complexity of Berlin Hauptbahnhof
12:51:37 <XeryusTC> well, only like 15% :P
12:52:01 <XeryusTC> that station cost me 3 days to code :o
12:55:48 <Rubidium> huh? You can't even code a realistic Berlin Hbf
12:58:14 <Eddi|zuHause> we need underground and bridge stations! :p
12:58:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and bendy stations! :=)
12:59:41 <XeryusTC> Rubidium: well, the only thing missing is the huge bend and the sbahn/local platforms :P
12:59:52 <XeryusTC> but the glass hall is coded ;)
13:00:18 <Rubidium> XeryusTC: what about the dozen or so underground platforms?
13:00:28 <XeryusTC> Rubidium: well, the only thing missing is the huge bend and the sbahn/local platforms :P
13:00:44 <XeryusTC> those are underground platforms IIRC ;)
13:00:52 <XeryusTC> although, not entirely sure about that
13:00:57 <Rubidium> some sbahn in above ground
13:01:15 <Rubidium> under the big glass 'tunnel'
13:01:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the sbahn is above ground, the underground sbahn is planned, the other underground platforms are long distance
13:01:29 <planetmaker> IIRC two main railways cross there at different levels
13:01:44 <XeryusTC> well, the only thing that is coded is the glass hall :o
13:02:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the east-west railway is above ground (4 long distance, 2 local), and north-south is underground (8 long distance, 2 local [planned]) i believe
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13:03:27 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: that sounds about right with what I remember when I was there
13:04:23 * SpComb^ got off the train at platform 13 yesterday
13:04:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i was there a few days after they opened it
13:08:59 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: there's a U-Bahn Hauptbahnhof since mid 2009
13:09:46 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: those are names
13:11:00 <Eddi|zuHause> besides English must be capitalised in English ;)
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14:46:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r19224 /trunk/src/ (27 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: change parameters passed to ShowErrorMessage() a bit
14:50:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r19225 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Feature: show warnings and errors in console as well, not only in a message box
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16:37:35 <Markk> It's only -5 celsius outside. :)
16:39:24 <Belugas> think it's quite the same
16:41:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it's thawing here :(
16:45:12 <thingwath> 2 months of snow aren't much, but still beter than... uhm... last year? or the previous one? I can't remember.
16:46:59 <Bjarni> no new snow right now, but there sure is a lot outside
16:55:01 <Bjarni> imagine handling this at the switching yard. It could take just a little bit longer than it would during the summer
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16:58:05 <dihedral> go fix the os x port!
16:59:38 * Bjarni casts spell of fixation on the os x port
17:00:11 <Bjarni> it appears it's able to resist even the strongest magic known to man
17:03:44 <XeryusTC> Bjarni: don't you posses the power of... *dramatic effects* black magic?
17:04:19 <Bjarni> officially I only posses the power known to man
17:04:54 <XeryusTC> you are a mac user, you have sold your soul anyway
17:05:03 <XeryusTC> you must've got some benefits out of that deal
17:05:21 <Bjarni> This is typical. I post an image about real life and boom people start talking about magic (totally unrelated to the picture)
17:05:49 <Bjarni> <XeryusTC> you must've got some benefits out of that deal <-- yeah I got a mac
17:06:18 <dihedral> probably cost him his black magic :-P
17:06:37 <Bjarni> yeah my mac is white xD
17:06:59 <dihedral> i thought you were (somewhat) good at coding that mac stuff...
17:07:10 <dihedral> ops - where did that come from?
17:07:26 <XeryusTC> Bjarni: that isnt really beneficial imo :P
17:07:50 <Bjarni> actually.... it's not like I suck, but I'm generally not very good with graphics :(
17:08:16 <Bjarni> I don't find it very interesting either (two facts, which might be linked)
17:11:54 <Bjarni> I'm disappointed in you guys. I went into the freezing winter and took a picture and all you do is ignoring it >_<
17:12:04 <dihedral> which way would you link it? you dont like graphics so you never had the interest in doing that kind of coding? or you were never really good at (that part) of coding, so you never wanted to increase interest in graphics :-P
17:12:10 <Rubidium> dihedral: you did put the emphasis on *were*, right?
17:12:50 <Bjarni> dihedral: actually I tried to solve it... you don't want to try the result
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17:16:39 <aber> Bjarni: What did you solve?
17:23:09 <Bjarni> actually I solve a lot of stuff all the time
17:23:24 <Bjarni> you will just not hear about the non-OTTD related stuff :p
17:24:18 <planetmaker> fluoric acid solves nearly everything...
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17:25:01 <planetmaker> some other things resist, too ;-)
17:25:04 <Belugas> as well as a big fucking kick in the butt to headless jurks in big clean offices
17:25:24 <planetmaker> wow. That came out of nowhere ;-)
17:25:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i think Belugas is just dilbert in disguise :p
17:25:42 <Bjarni> it came out of Belugas
17:26:01 * Belugas would love to be able to do what he said
17:26:01 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: you could be on to something
17:28:36 <Sacro> manlove from steve jobs
17:29:02 <Bjarni> make: *** No rule to make target `love'. Stop.
17:29:30 <Bjarni> looks like steve isn't a target
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18:00:03 <OwenS> Hey, GCC, see that "-lpthread"? It means link against PThreads, please do so...
18:02:25 <Rubidium> try gcc -v and see if it passes it to ld, if so blame ld not gcc
18:02:51 <OwenS> Looks like I actually need to pass "-pthread" rather than "-lpthread", since it also needs to link libpthread_nonshared.a
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18:45:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r19226 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 31 changes by Kayos
18:45:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: catalan - 9 changes by arnau
18:45:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 7 changes by habell
18:45:53 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: esperanto - 112 changes by Ailanto
18:45:53 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
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19:35:28 <__ln__> does it sound terribly formal to say "heutzutage"?
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19:47:49 <Frankr> Can anyone here help me
19:48:14 <aber> What was the question again?
19:48:28 <Frankr> I'm trying to add text into another text, stacking
19:48:39 <Frankr> i have this code but it won't work
19:48:48 <Frankr> 79 * 16 04 03 FF 01 \wxd018 " Emirates" 00
19:49:01 <Frankr> -1 * 0 04 03 FF 01 \wxd0AA "Liveries: \81\d0\18" 00
19:50:14 <Yexo> Frankr: define "it won't work", does nforenum give an error, does grfcoded give an error, do you get only one text in game, don't you get any text at all in game?
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19:50:29 <Frankr> sorry it gives me this error
19:50:50 <Frankr> "//!!Error (161): Offset 17: Text ID D0 18 is not a valid text ID.
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19:52:05 <Yexo> have you tried \81\18\d0" ?
19:53:01 <Iseldra> Anyone know a neat channel where I can find someone to play openTTD with ^^?
19:53:13 <Frankr> "//!!Error (161): Offset 17: Text ID 18 D0 is not a valid text ID.
19:53:42 <Belugas> Iseldra: they all are dirty, i have not swiped the dead bodies yet
19:53:43 <Frankr> a group or an individual
19:53:49 <Iseldra> Sorry to interrupt ^_^
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19:56:04 <Frankr> try #openttdmegaclan or #openttdcoop
19:56:41 <Belugas> Iseldra: it was a joke... not saying you were interupting ;)
19:57:33 <Frankr> Yexo: Do you think it is a bug then?
19:58:00 <Yexo> Frankr: I'm not sure yet, I'm trying to reproduce it now
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20:08:54 <Yexo> Frankr: what happens if you ignore that error and try it ingame?
20:09:10 <Frankr> i actually haven't tried that
20:10:50 <Frankr> Stupid me, just assuming it wouldn't work
20:11:34 <Yexo> it would be helpful if you can create a very small nfo file (maybe just those 2 lines + a header) and post that in the nforenum topic on the forum
20:12:01 <Frankr> will do, i'll put an ignore on that error
20:17:31 <notjotham> are there any mods that change depots into something that looks more like a works yard?
20:18:16 <notjotham> oh no, using the wrong jargon
20:19:10 <dihedral> it's a difference - and not a small one ;-)
20:19:14 <Yexo> I'm not aware of a grf that changes depots into work yards
20:19:32 <Yexo> notjotham: the problem here is that "mod" can also mean a source code patch
20:19:41 <Yexo> so we prefer either "patch" or "grf/newgrf"
20:19:51 <notjotham> ok, i assume there would need to be programatic changes to add works yards anyway
20:20:05 <notjotham> since they'd basically be stations that reset the service interval
20:20:48 <notjotham> it just feels kinda cheap atm that my whole train goes into this tardis and yet i can't even haul daleks
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20:25:31 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that heavily depends on context
20:26:06 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i use the word fairly often
20:27:21 <Eddi|zuHause> notjotham: there once was a "drive through depots" patch, not sure how useful that was...
20:27:56 <Frankr> I was just writing up a small nfo for the nforenum topic like Yexo had asked
20:28:26 <notjotham> yeah i was just getting the train back from the countryside the other day and realised that's what i was missing, work yards
20:28:34 <Yexo> it was only needed if nforenum behaved incorrectly, which it did look like as it works, but as frosch123 pointed out nforenums error was correct
20:29:01 <Frankr> Thanks Yexo and Frosch123 for both your help
20:29:22 <frosch123> unless it complains on d4xx as well :p
20:29:38 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: ok, so i don't need to start avoiding the word either.
20:32:08 <Frankr> no it doesn't complain Frosch123, it seems to work fine just going to test in game now
20:35:19 <Frankr> works like a charm thanks again
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21:14:16 <Zuu_> Jumping in and jumping out.. :-)
21:18:33 <__ln__> quite off-topic... does the expression "jag är hemma från Xyzköping" exist in sweden, or is that something purely finlandsvenska? (the meaning of expression being "i am originally from Xyz", not "i just returned home from Xyz")
21:19:23 <Zuu_> "jag är hemmahörande från xyzköping" works better.
21:19:36 <Zuu_> or "jag är ifrån xyzköping"
21:20:06 <Zuu_> or "jag kommer ifrån xyzköping"
21:20:46 <Zuu_> the 'i' in ifrån can be omitted if you want as well. Depending on how strict you want to be.
21:21:37 <__ln__> ok... but since i saw a native finlandsvensk use exactly the "jag är hemma från" construct, i guess we can conclude it is valid finlandsvenska. (i can feel the finnish influence in that form)
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21:22:49 <Zuu_> Possible. I don't know Finnish nor the dialect they speek up in north Sweden. But it is not far from what I would use.
21:24:06 <Bjarni> <PeterT> Bjarni is here? <-- apparently not when you said that ages ago :P
21:24:22 <__ln__> Zuu_: the spoken, informal finlandsvenska has many direct loan words from finnish, so it could sound interesting to swedes. :)
21:25:04 <__ln__> what! Bjarni appears on channel without joining!
21:25:36 <Bjarni> I didn't appear on channel :P
21:25:53 <PeterT> * Bjarni (~Bjarni@Bjarni.pwn) has joined #openttd :-P
21:29:15 <Zuu> Sorry, my 3g-phone dropped the connection (I'm on the train to "staden jag är ifrån" (the town I am from)) ;-)
21:29:45 <Zuu> Or actually, not really where I'm from from the beginning, but where I live.
21:29:47 <Bjarni> wireless connections sucks big time
21:30:27 <Zuu> Been on 3g the last 2 days as I didn't borther to get the access code for the office network at the company where I'm doing my thesis.
21:31:00 <Zuu> 3G in central stockholm works farily okay. As long as you have your phone connected to the electricity constantly. :-)
21:31:56 <Nite_Owl> it also apparently causes timeouts
21:32:23 <Eddi|zuHause> dropped connections have the tendency to time out, yes.
21:32:48 <Zuu> Yea, but that is when you sit on a train going some 160 km/h or so or happen to get behind a hill.
21:33:17 <Bjarni> Zuu: so you are saying that you sit in an office with free internet access, but you didn't bother to get the password so you pay for 3G internet access instead?
21:33:38 <Zuu> While UMTS is much better at doing handovers than GSM, it was not designed for fast moving between cells.
21:34:12 <Zuu> Bjarni: Yep, because I only used like 100 Mb a day and got 5 GB a month.
21:34:24 <Rubidium> no mobile phone networks are designed for fast hand overs
21:34:44 <Zuu> got to get off the train soonish. cya later
21:35:16 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why trains have "onboard" cells
21:35:17 <Bjarni> joining just to leaving?
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21:42:54 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: you are on a train too?
21:43:11 <Eddi|zuHause> something like that :p
21:43:33 <Bjarni> don't use IRC while driving :p
21:43:51 <Bjarni> look out the front window instead or stuff could happen
21:44:32 <Eddi|zuHause> but... what about auto cruise?!?
21:45:22 <Bjarni> you are legally responsible for constant monitoring of your unreliable device
21:45:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19227 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Reorganization of parameters at CmdBuildRoadStop.
21:47:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19228 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Move an additional check from CmdBuildRoadStop to CheckFlatLandRoadStop.
21:47:19 <Nite_Owl> read an article a while back about a woman suing a caravan company because she put her caravan on cruise control and then left the driver's seat to go in the back to make a sandwich
21:48:20 <Bjarni> I think she won because the caravan company failed to write that driving wasn't allowed without a driver
21:48:34 <Bjarni> the fact that traffic laws bans it didn't matter in court o_O
21:49:11 <notjotham> saw this movie idiocracy, it's a poor movie, but possibly it was a good script, there are some funny ideas in it in retrospect
21:52:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19229 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: Allow to build multiple road stops using drag and drop (Based on Wolf01 work)
21:52:49 <Bjarni> warning: NUL character seen; rest of line ignored <-- o_O
21:53:03 <Bjarni> I thought I could have NULL chars, but a NUL char... that's new
21:53:06 <notjotham> idiocracy was much the same as the above anecdote about the retard operator
21:53:29 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19230 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: Allow to remove multiple road stops using drag and drop.
21:55:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19231 /trunk/ (6 files in 5 dirs): -Feature: Allow overbuilding of road stops.
21:55:47 <Nite_Owl> would that be Ctrl + drag and drop as it is for removing roads ??
21:56:20 <Terkhen> Nite_Owl: Ctrl + build station is already used by distant join
21:56:40 <__ln__> Bjarni: NULL is a pointer conceptually, do not confuse it with characters.
21:56:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: the NUL character is the character with the byte representation "0"
21:57:15 <Bjarni> how did I type that one with my keyboard? :)
21:57:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: in c-contexts, this means "end of string"
21:57:32 <Nite_Owl> so then bulldozer and drag and drop
21:57:48 <Bjarni> aber: I know, but I didn't type \0
21:58:01 <Bjarni> in fact I have no idea what happened
21:58:11 <Bjarni> but the error is gone again
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22:35:14 <Ammler> hmm, renum uses hex for ids...
22:35:29 <Ammler> that could be changed since escape support
22:40:55 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19232 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19231): Forbid overbuilding drive-through stops using a different orientation.
22:41:39 <SpComb^> Eddi|zuHause: I did the Settlers II / Roman Campign / Mission V \o/
22:42:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19233 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix: the -M command line option did not work
22:42:04 <Eddi|zuHause> congrats, i suppose :)
22:43:03 <SpComb^> I snuffed out the yellow one, now I'm almost done with the red one
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22:43:29 <PeterT> Is there a -M on windows?
22:44:31 <Zuu> Terkhen: Nice that you did add compatibility layers for NoAI.
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22:57:00 <Terkhen> I have tested them but I'm still a novice in NoAI, tell me if there are any problems :)
22:58:16 <IPG> in the forum of translation of base sets
22:58:34 <IPG> i see the hungarian translation, as not correct enough... :S
22:58:50 <PeterT> Highlight the differences you've made
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23:05:22 <Rubidium> oh... a crazy UTC-6+-ish guy
23:05:46 <Bjarni> I'm kind of cautious about greeting crazy people. I risk they talk to me about nonsense and then I can't get away
23:06:10 <Rubidium> getting away is *easy*
23:06:39 <Bjarni> besides I refuse to provide information to "spais"
23:06:48 <Bjarni> ok maybe I will if it's false information
23:06:54 <CrazySpai> Abbus and Costello?
23:07:12 <Bjarni> that's two guys at my local church
23:10:04 * Eddi|zuHause takes note: whenever Bjarni gives information, it's false.
23:12:30 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Then I suggest you ask him something interesting. :-)
23:12:32 <CrazySpai> My next obstacle to tackle: Learning how to use multiple trains on the same track.
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23:18:03 <Eddi|zuHause> catapults are crazy
23:18:07 <Eddi|zuHause> if used correctly
23:21:17 <Bjarni> catapults can use up all your stone and get you stuck if used incorrectly
23:21:32 <SpComb^> this is the map that features huge walls of stone in your way
23:21:40 <SpComb^> I had 1k stone in my HQ at one point..
23:22:00 <SpComb^> but myes, 27 catapults ftw
23:24:45 <Rubidium> IPG: while you're fixing the translation, could you also add the translation for openmsx to it?
23:25:13 <IPG> I'll finish it in few minutes
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23:29:09 <Nite_Owl> shades of 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail'
23:30:32 <Zuu> PeterT: Did you find it by accident? :-p
23:30:49 <Zuu> I guess it is what 42 is to life but for OpenTTD ;-)
23:31:34 <PeterT> he is Hungarian, I beleive
23:31:53 <IPG> his name is hungarian... but i did not see him ever translating...
23:32:19 <PeterT> Do you think it's a good idea to package SimpleAI with 0.7 and above so that people can't complain about not having the old ai?
23:32:34 <Zuu> My (real) name is Swedish, but I did never see me translating using the webtool :-)
23:32:56 <IPG> Rubidium, how can I found out who is official translator of a language? :) (just for ask)
23:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: no, the arguments for the decision to not distribute any AI still hold
23:33:18 <Zuu> Also SimpleAI isn't old AI.
23:33:27 <Eddi|zuHause> the ones that you have to use the search function for...
23:33:53 <Zuu> Which is partly why there is no default tram set as well.
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23:36:09 <Zuu> If <random linux dist> wants, they could have a AI-package which is recommended for the OpenTTD package. But even that solution has its drawbacks. The AIs will soon become old (not last version) and users will not know that they should start by updating them to the last version.
23:36:16 <IPG> but it shows the active ones only
23:36:58 <Zuu> If they have to find out how to download them, they will at the same time find out how to update their custom content.
23:37:06 <Rubidium> IPG: how can an inactive translator (i.e. someone who hasn't translated) be a translator?
23:37:22 <IPG> have account and permission
23:37:36 <planetmaker> Zuu: most people probably use plain vanilla as they get it from an install, though
23:38:39 <Rubidium> oh, then add TrueBrain and me as official translator for all languages :) Not that we do translations, but we have the permissions
23:38:52 <Rubidium> i.e. looking at permissions is pointless
23:39:05 <glx> any devs can be translator too ;)
23:40:32 <IPG> okay, but if more people are translating a language, there will be other ideas, have to talk about it to uniformize, and sometimes it's very hard to find all the translators...
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23:40:48 <IPG> in the wt2 there was an option to send email to the translators
23:41:17 <Rubidium> IPG: yeah, and *that* email function did not work
23:41:57 <Nite_Owl> Need to feed - later all
23:42:03 <Rubidium> there even once was something like translators-hu@openttd.org, but that didn't work either
23:42:35 <Ammler> you could grep commit log to find other translators
23:42:45 <Rubidium> also discussions via email get 'lost' quite easily. It's better to have something more permanent, e.g. a forum thread about the translation.
23:43:06 <Rubidium> that can be read later by new translators, allows input from non-translators and such
23:43:17 <IPG> I think in the near future I won't need this, but in the past sometimes it was hard to find some people... :)
23:43:17 <Rubidium> it seems to work quite well for the German translation
23:43:31 <CrazySpai> I'm going to jump into this conversation mid way through!
23:43:45 <IPG> nowadays we are translating the hungarian together with alyr...
23:44:29 <IPG> but there are some people who did make some translates... and if they have an idea to translate they wont know how to do some things... but the forum thread is a good idea
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23:44:54 <IPG> but I dont know what's up with oklmernok or Miham... :S
23:45:58 <Rubidium> Miham got hit by reality
23:46:38 <Rubidium> maybe a wiki page with different translation threads should be linked from the FAQ of WT3
23:47:02 <Rubidium> then you can link from the wiki page to the german, hungarian and other threads
23:47:34 <planetmaker> maybe a good idea. And / or link to language-specific pages
23:47:50 <planetmaker> There some principles which the particular translation follows could be outlined
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23:48:14 <planetmaker> And 'default' translations of frequent words which have non-unique translations
23:48:26 <planetmaker> tracks = Gleise? Schienen?
23:48:35 <planetmaker> it should be consistant and only one of those
23:48:39 <Zuu> Sounds good. Translating a word is simple but maintaining a consistent translation requires some house rules.
23:49:12 <planetmaker> apropos translations, Zuu. The base sets still miss a Swedish translation. All of them ;-)
23:49:31 <Rubidium> even the English translation isn't 100% consistent
23:49:42 <Zuu> Well, there should be one for OpenGFX which I made.
23:50:02 <Zuu> But the others are yet to be done. :-)
23:50:04 <planetmaker> right :-) That's still then there :-)
23:50:25 <planetmaker> I just checked the translation thread
23:51:18 <planetmaker> Uhm... Rubidium Brumi pointed out a blunder in OpenMSX description: it's a MUSIC set. Not a SOUND set.
23:51:51 <planetmaker> could you please fix that in the first posting?
23:52:00 <IPG> hmm, at the last 999 revs all the hungarian translation made by alyr, petert and me
23:53:14 <IPG> and one by leiric, in the second thousand... who is he? :)
23:54:13 <IPG> 9 months ago oklmernok was also working...
23:59:06 <Rubidium> planetmaker: time to poke Terkhen again :(
23:59:32 <Rubidium> the other translations use 'music' according too googol translate
23:59:46 <planetmaker> I hope he isn't too ticklish ;-)
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