IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-02-25
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00:00:51 <planetmaker> hm... Dutch: muziekset or geluidsvervangingsset ?
00:01:38 <Rubidium> I've 'fixed' that one myself
00:02:16 <glx> hmm seems I have some translation to do
00:02:21 <planetmaker> Yeah well. So you want to do the commit? Otherwise I'd push those changes to OpenMSX
00:02:21 <IPG> then, I open the Hungarian thread in General OpenTTD
00:03:19 <Rubidium> planetmaker: feel free to commit/push
00:03:48 <Rubidium> the german one is in general
00:04:29 <planetmaker> More people read general ;-)
00:05:42 <planetmaker> It helps to make some detailed proposals right away, IPG :-)
00:06:38 <IPG> it will be i think first a general "theres a bug fix it man" and others topic
00:07:06 <IPG> is it allowed to use own language in these topics, or only parallel, or neither?
00:07:53 <Rubidium> I think the mods are against that
00:07:57 <Yexo> where possible, use english
00:08:15 <Yexo> people who translate have to grasp the english too, otherwise they can't translate
00:08:56 <Zuu> Hmm, I can only think of a very very formal translation of "credits" to Swedish :-s
00:08:57 <planetmaker> Granted, translation threads in English 'feel' awkward.
00:08:58 <Yexo> and if it'd be in whatever-language-other-then-english new people will start asking questions about openttd in general in that topic, if they don't know english
00:09:25 <glx> hmm orig_dos.obg miss default origin ;)
00:09:32 <planetmaker> After all you discuss your own mother tongue in and the intricacies of that language in English
00:09:35 <Zuu> But maybe it is already used somewhere in the about-dialog :-)
00:10:00 <Rubidium> glx: you're not translating them directly in svn, are you?
00:10:21 <Rubidium> I'll add the missing default on the next flush of base set translations
00:10:32 <Eddi|zuHause> IPG: the german topic is in english, except for the actual translations
00:11:00 <glx> Rubidium: I'll give you a diff ;)
00:11:39 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I'm still not convinced that it helps the topic itself. But then - it's an English forum.
00:11:53 <Zuu> Hmm, "You can find it on your Transport Tycoon Deluxe CD-ROM" - it could be translated to either "den" or "det" depending on the surounding text. :-)
00:12:23 <Zuu> Only one of them would be the correct one.
00:13:06 <Rubidium> it's something like "$file is missing. $message"
00:19:47 <Zuu> Now I'm trying to figure out how to write "please redownload from BaNaNaS" without including den/det as for eg AIs and scenarios would use different words for 'it' :-D
00:20:28 <Eddi|zuHause> add gender support for base translations! :p
00:21:14 <Rubidium> Zuu: it won't be used for AIs/scenarios; only for the base sets (graphics, sound, music)
00:22:13 <Zuu> Good, because it is the last word in a combined word thet determines which 'it' to use and all three would end with 'package'. :-)
00:22:50 <planetmaker> Rubidium: is there a way to detect whether a base set is outdated and give the user a hint to get a newer version?
00:23:10 <planetmaker> I've seen already quite some screenshots where people use old OpenGFX with missing sprites
00:23:14 <Rubidium> not without going to banananananananananananananas
00:23:46 <Rubidium> or hardcoding versions in OpenTTD binaries
00:24:06 <planetmaker> both is... not satisfactory... hm
00:24:29 <Eddi|zuHause> make openttd home-phoning by default ;)
00:25:52 <Yexo> add a version in openttd that is increased every time new graphics gets added, then add the same number to all graphic set obg files, check for obg-version >= openttd-version
00:26:11 <Zuu> A GUI-wise blocking (but running the download asynchron from the GUI-update process) update dialog with a cancel button that show when OpenTTD starts should do it. Possible also with a confirm button before even trying to connect online.
00:26:21 <Yexo> but that'll warn every time if there is no update for the graphic set
00:26:32 <planetmaker> Bananas = Back doors And Ntwork administration Assumed. No Authorization Seeked
00:27:31 <planetmaker> Yexo: might be an interesting idea.
00:27:50 <planetmaker> Because every additional gui sprites makes a base set look ugly at some point
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00:31:01 <Rubidium> planetmaker: it'd mean releasing a new version of OpenGFX 'now'
00:31:02 <Zuu> Yexo: Sounds like something rather more doable.
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00:31:30 <planetmaker> Rubidium: yeah...
00:31:34 <Yexo> add a version field to obg files, default to 0 if not present
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00:31:41 <Yexo> set openttd-version to 0
00:31:58 <Yexo> next time graphics are added the openttd-version will be 1 and current opengfx is outdated
00:31:59 <Rubidium> Yexo: but preferably people update to the most recent version, i.e. 0 is not enough
00:32:01 <planetmaker> Yexo: in case OpenTTD has a new sprite and complains.
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00:32:22 <planetmaker> It'd be bad, if then it complains and there's no 'cure' in form of a 'fixed' or updated GFX
00:32:52 <Rubidium> and isn't it meant to 'force' the users to get the new version that contains the shade sprite?
00:32:57 <Yexo> planetmaker: it's not that bad, just assume that new graphics are only added in trunk, not in release branches
00:33:14 <Yexo> then there is only a big problem if a release is made without opengfx being up to date
00:33:33 <planetmaker> Well, that can usually be helped to not happen
00:33:46 <Yexo> but then what is worse: having users complain they want an update but there is none of users complaining their graphics are wrong
00:33:46 <planetmaker> at least it worked for beta-1 ;-)
00:36:16 <Zuu> At least after the new base package has been released I gues it is better that the users know how to resolve the issue (update the base backage)
00:36:23 <planetmaker> both is bad, so the current situation is easier :-)
00:36:51 <Yexo> planetmaker: that was or course the worse case situation (update needed,but not yet available)
00:36:59 <Yexo> after an update is available you get the situation:
00:37:12 <Yexo> users complain about wrong graphics or get a warning they should update
00:37:16 <planetmaker> well. It will happen. At least for brief periods of time
00:37:28 <Yexo> some will then complain they don't understand to upgrade, but you'll always get stupid complains
00:37:57 <Yexo> as long as those brief periods of time are nightlies only, I don't think it's a big problem
00:38:19 <Zuu> The error message could contain wordings like that they should check for a newer version. Of course all users will wait a time and then ask. Some will wait very short time and thus be annoying.
00:38:21 <Yexo> the nightlies themself are ocasionally broken too (as in, don't even start). Not often, but it happens
00:38:34 <planetmaker> Well, yes. Having that for stable would be bad. But as said: that can be helped and worked for the first beta
00:38:56 <planetmaker> At least if the change is only one additional GUI sprite
00:39:57 <planetmaker> So... mostly I withdraw my implicit feature request ;-) - or make it only work for stable releases
00:41:04 <Rubidium> planetmaker: if (using(openttd-nightly)) use(opengfx-nightly); // problem mostly solved
00:41:46 <planetmaker> but a person might update stable and re-use and old, inappropriate opengfx
00:42:12 <planetmaker> but I guesss... they should know how to use bananas
00:42:13 <Rubidium> yes, but in that case the upgrade warning should 'just' work
00:43:08 <Rubidium> although it'll be quite opengfx specific, i.e. it won't work for newer versions of OpenSFX/OpenMSX
00:43:41 <Rubidium> nor will it work when there is a massive bug in OpenGFX and you want people to update to the fixed version and nothing changed in between for OpenTTD
00:44:07 <IPG> zuu, i read your translate (base set), and i want to comment: in other languages like hungarian the whole text means a fully other thing if you not change the order of the words :)
00:45:47 <IPG> omg it's 1:45, i must go to sleep
00:46:43 <Zuu> Sounds like a good idea. Night
00:52:09 <planetmaker> > nor will it work when there is a massive bug in OpenGFX and you want people to update to the fixed version and nothing changed in between for OpenTTD <-- also true.
00:52:21 <planetmaker> so... no way except phoning home. Which is out-of-question
00:58:31 <Eddi|zuHause> the versioning thing suggested does not sound bad
00:59:03 <Eddi|zuHause> every time a sprite gets added to openttd, increase the version, tell all the opengfx users that their set is outdated
00:59:40 <Eddi|zuHause> alternative: fall back to openttd[dw].grf for missing opengfx sprites
01:03:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19234 /trunk/bin/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Update: base set translations for French, Hungarian, Italian and Swedish
01:10:22 <aber> this is not as bad as Microsoft, but hey don't claim to use valid html markup
01:11:35 <glx> aber: some errors/warnings are just weird
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01:30:12 <Yexo> glx: as far as I can see all are valid (although there are a lot of duplicate warnings/errors)
01:31:25 <glx> they are valid yes, but most url errors/warnings are just caused by first one :)
01:31:45 <Rubidium> solution: remove the image :)
01:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause> solution: remove macos port :p
01:36:05 <glx> music and sound too then ;)
01:36:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't look down that far...
01:37:14 <glx> a class would be better in this case
01:40:17 <glx> there are also 2 CSS errors
01:42:28 <glx> hehe all news with links to the forum are "wrong"
01:49:24 <PeterT> SmatZ: What does varioussizes.diff do?
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07:40:50 <Terkhen> taking up a project after two months of pause is difficult :/
07:43:57 <roboboy> if I was to test the DOS port of OpenTTD would it be prefered if I tested it under DOS 6 or DOS 7?
07:45:57 <roboboy> I plan to resurect an old PC on the weekend which is only capable of runing NT4 or 95 or older
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07:47:25 <Terkhen> isn't DOS 7 part of Windows 95?
07:48:23 <ccfreak2k> Yes, Windows 95 and 98 had DOS "7" in it, I think.
07:50:26 <roboboy> ME had DOS 8 im not sure if 98 had it or 7
07:51:12 <roboboy> but would it be better to test it under standalone DOS or the DOS that comes with 95?
07:55:06 <Terkhen> I don't know for sure, but DOS 7 seems unofficial; I'd go with 6
08:03:47 <Terkhen> I'll try OpenTTD in my old 386 some day to see what happens, it barely satisfies Transport Tycoon Deluxe requirements
08:23:08 <roboboy> where should I search to find the code that looks after the various keyboard shortcuts?
08:26:30 <Terkhen> most of them are at toolbar_gui.cpp (search for 'Q')
08:26:55 <ccfreak2k> IIRC keystrokes are sent/filtered by individual GUI elements.
08:27:10 <ccfreak2k> The toolbar catches the mosr.
08:27:58 <Terkhen> Ctrl+Click shortcuts are coded in a different way, IIRC the variable was called _ctrl_pressed
08:29:18 <ccfreak2k> There's an SDL event loop in one of the files; I'd start there.
08:31:19 <roboboy> I found what I was looking for
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08:47:47 <roboboy> lets see if I can change what ctrl s does in openttd
08:48:20 * roboboy waits for OpenTTD to build
08:54:03 <planetmaker> roboboy, it creates a screenshot ;-) At least usually
08:54:34 <roboboy> and I wanted to change it to bring up the savewindow
08:54:57 <planetmaker> hm. For me there's a difference between command+s and ctrl+s ;-)
08:56:26 <roboboy> yey my changes worked
09:04:03 <roboboy> hm I could look at it, but im not fluent in C++ yet
09:05:32 <planetmaker> let me highlight the only important word: _yet_ ;-)
09:25:24 <Rubidium> dihedral: !"not fluent"
09:26:05 <dihedral> !!fluent does it too... if you want to define it that way :-P
09:26:14 <dihedral> at least it would in some languages
09:26:59 * peter1138 ponders some random data
09:27:25 <dihedral> cat /dev/random | peter1138
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09:28:32 <peter1138> doesn't work in a GetRandomBits() function :(
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09:42:30 <OwenS> Why must people make docxs? :(
09:42:55 <Noldo> because their office version pushes them to
09:43:11 <Rubidium> OwenS: to show everyone that they have folded for MS' ribbon crap
09:43:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19235 /trunk/src/newgrf_railtype.cpp: -Add: [NewGRF] Add 2 bits of pseudo-random data for rail types, based on tile location.
09:43:21 <OwenS> They're a pain to open because everthing goes "Ooh! This is a zip file" (At least ODF is recognized widely now)
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11:06:24 <Peping> I'm quite new to the idea of playing OpenTTD on my cellphone. Are there actually any (even unofficial) builds of Openttd for Windows Mobile?
11:06:44 <peter1138> oh, including unofficial, probably
11:07:09 <Rubidium> wasn't there like an ancient version?
11:07:18 <Rubidium> ancient as in five year-ish old
11:07:50 <Peping> I know about 0.6.0 for WinCE. What about 1.0.0? Has anybody announced that he'll build it form WinCE?
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11:20:17 * roboboy wonders if DJGPP will run under DOSBox and compile OpenTTD under DOSBox
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11:22:35 <roboboy> well its likely on Sunday I will have to compile OpenTTD for DOS myself anyway
11:26:43 <peter1138> roboboy, why wouldn't it work? it's made for dos...
11:27:05 <peter1138> although i dunno if it will actually compile openttd :)
11:28:42 <roboboy> DOSBox might not implement all the bits of DOS a compiler needs as DOSBox is aimed at games (Yes I know Windows 3.11 will run under DOSBox)
11:29:13 <peter1138> no, dosbox just emulates a dos-based pc
11:29:20 <peter1138> a compiler won't need anything special
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11:45:59 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19236 /trunk/src/misc/binaryheap.hpp: -Codechange: move method code into class definition (skidd13)
11:46:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19237 /trunk/src/misc/binaryheap.hpp: -Codechange: use types directly and prefer uint instead of int (skidd13)
11:46:54 <PeterT> Where is this skidd13 person?
11:46:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19238 /trunk/src/misc/binaryheap.hpp: -Codechange: Unify the HeapifyDown code (skidd13)
11:47:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19239 /trunk/src/misc/binaryheap.hpp: -Cleanup: Move the HeapifyDown code into its own method (skidd13)
11:47:56 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19240 /trunk/src/misc/binaryheap.hpp: -Codechange: Unify HeapifyUp code (skidd13)
11:48:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19241 /trunk/src/misc/binaryheap.hpp: -Cleanup: Move the HeapifyUp code into its own method (skidd13)
11:49:02 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19242 /trunk/src/ (misc/binaryheap.hpp pathfinder/yapf/nodelist.hpp):
11:49:02 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Perfer pointer instead of reference (skidd13)
11:49:02 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Cleanup: merge PopHead() and RemoveHead() into Shift()
11:49:29 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19243 /trunk/src/misc/binaryheap.hpp: -Codechange: rename var's to fit better to common style (skidd13)
11:50:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19244 /trunk/src/misc/binaryheap.hpp: -Codechange: Remove function call if consistency-check is not used (skidd13)
11:51:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19245 /trunk/src/misc/binaryheap.hpp: -Codechange: apply coding style to binary heap (skidd13)
11:51:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19246 /trunk/src/misc/binaryheap.hpp: -Doc: CBinaryHeapT (skidd13)
11:52:17 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19247 /trunk/src/ (misc/binaryheap.hpp pathfinder/yapf/nodelist.hpp): -Codechange: Rename methods to fit better to common style (skidd13)
11:53:47 * roboboy skips setting DJGPP up
11:54:09 <roboboy> I shall look for other more likely easier routes
11:57:46 <dihedral> Yexo: where did that come from?
11:57:50 <dihedral> have not seen skidd in a long time....
11:58:33 <Yexo> skidd has been busy lately
11:58:47 <dihedral> i thought he left openttd.... for studies
12:00:35 <peter1138> is there any nice openssl gui tool? i need to make a key and request, and i always forget the command line options...
12:02:24 <peter1138> that does not generate ssl keys
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12:08:04 <SpComb^> why are the ships/harbors in Settlers II so buggy :(
12:09:17 <SpComb^> all my far too rare soldiers just walk back and forth between harbors, and the ships just drive around empty 95% of the time
12:09:31 <peter1138> planetmaker, why do you think it does?
12:09:41 <Ammler> peter1138: webmin or the tool from the authorization
12:09:54 <planetmaker> peter1138, as l=h ;-) nvm
12:10:24 <peter1138> "tool from the authorization" ... bit vague
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12:11:49 <Ammler> I mean, those companies, which certs your keys do also mostly support nice generation of those...
12:16:21 <dihedral> yikes - that looks like skidd did do a lot in the last few weeks
12:27:58 <roboboy> what is the best way for me to compile OpenTTD for DOS? build a cross compiler under Mingw?
12:31:27 <dihedral> where will the r20k party be?
12:32:05 <dihedral> if my dad is still ... there .... then no
12:32:41 <Rubidium> oh, and for what it's worth... opengfx does not work out-of-the-box on DOS
12:36:52 * orudge probably still has his hacky patches somewhere to get networking working via WaTTCP
12:38:35 * dihedral only knows WaTTheFuck
12:39:12 <Rubidium> though I kinda abandoned the DOS port because 'we' couldn't get it to work on real hardware
12:39:13 <orudge> I recall running a server on FreeDOS which I could happily connect to from other machines
12:39:18 <orudge> it was a little slow alas
12:40:03 <orudge> Rubidium: hmm, Allegro issues I guess? At least, I tend to find getting high-res games, etc, to work on real machines to be quite a challenge if you don't have a suitably old graphics card
12:40:34 <roboboy> well i'm likely to be setting up an old PC with DOS on it on Sunday
12:40:55 <roboboy> the machine came with Win98 on it
12:41:14 <roboboy> ill have to hunt graphics card drivers though
12:49:57 <planetmaker> <Rubidium> dihedral: at pm's <-- do you know by heart the current commit count?
12:50:53 <planetmaker> s/count/rate/ ;-)
12:51:19 <Rubidium> 73 last week, 300 last month
12:51:21 <planetmaker> 975 is the offset of the current svn repo, right? hm... :-)
12:51:48 <planetmaker> so about two months, 1st April ;-)
12:53:11 <Rubidium> april first is in 5 weeks
12:53:38 <Yexo> +- 10 per day, so 1st april we'll be around r19600
12:54:05 <planetmaker> so... yes :-) Feel invited for the 20k party :-)
12:54:53 <planetmaker> The Dutch invasion ;-)
12:54:53 <roboboy> what is the best way for me to compile OpenTTD for DOS? build a cross compiler under Mingw?
12:56:05 <Rubidium> roboboy: I don't know what the best way is; ask DJ. I'm cross-compiling from Linux
12:58:39 <orudge> roboboy: in theory you should just be able to download and install DJGPP, although you'll want to install a more comprehensive UNIX-like environment
12:58:47 <orudge> all of which can be found on the DJGPP site
12:58:58 <orudge> I think last time I built OpenTTD for DOS though, I also cross-compiled via Linux though
13:00:27 <peter1138> shouldn't be hard to just grab the bits and try it
13:01:31 * orudge grabs peter1138's bits and tries it
13:01:32 <Rubidium> yup, it's like 20-30 minutes work for downloading a complete i386 chroot + the required binaries/libraries
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13:04:00 <supdood> is it possible to play a multiplayer game with ai?
13:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> <SpComb^> why are the ships/harbors in Settlers II so buggy :( <-- they reworked ships for S2 TNG
13:05:45 <Forked> too bad about the new DRM in settlers 7..
13:06:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19248 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp stdafx.h): -Fix: DOS 'port' did not compile anymore
13:09:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Forked: let's hope they'll go down because of that...
13:12:42 <dihedral> 13:54 < planetmaker> so... yes :-) Feel invited for the 20k party :-)
13:12:57 <dihedral> shall we write that into tt-forums? :-D
13:13:39 <planetmaker> I know that my flat has not unlimited space ;-)
13:14:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd be more worried about the parking space for the caravans :p
13:14:46 <planetmaker> the big unknown on a general announcement is the amount of people
13:14:50 <dihedral> well - at least i see no hindereance as to why not :-P
13:14:58 <planetmaker> haha @ Eddi|zuHause
13:15:10 <planetmaker> I'll let them part at 'versity
13:15:14 <planetmaker> it's not too far.
13:20:22 * roboboy installs linux in Virtual PC
13:22:26 <Rubidium> though it works (for what I could test) in dosbox
13:32:12 <planetmaker> he... too long filenames
13:32:17 <planetmaker> I haven't seen that in long ;-)
13:38:42 <SpComb^> there used to be a harbor there, but the ship got stuck and my soldiers kept going there to turn around, so I removed it
13:39:14 <SpComb^> it's annoying because S2 is pretty bug-free otherwise
13:39:45 <roboboy> it seems to be stuck in fast forward
13:40:11 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: is that supposed to be an "expedition"?
13:49:08 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... how can canadian station set detect presence of dutch catenary, when dutch catenary is loaded as static grf?
13:57:16 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: and multiplayer?
13:57:27 <Eddi|zuHause> in single player
13:58:37 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: it's loaded so detectable
13:58:45 <glx> static or not doesn't matter
13:59:04 <Rubidium> actually, in MP trying to detect a static NewGRF means the static NewGRF gets disabled
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13:59:31 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, so it works completely different from what i imagined...
14:10:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r19249 /trunk/src/ (ai/api/ai_road.cpp road_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#3642](r18803): start and end tiles were swapped in CMD_REMOVE_LONG_ROAD
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14:53:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19250 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#3643]: with RTL languages clicking a horizontal scrollbar that could not scroll could cause a crash
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15:54:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19251 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf_config.cpp newgrf_config.h):
15:54:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Codechange: add a contructor to GRFError and use it to allocating errors more uniform.
15:54:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Fix: some grf error messages didn't free the previous error messages, creating a memory leak
15:57:48 <U1> I guess this question comes up alot but is there any way to get airports with greater bandwith?
15:58:24 <Rubidium> newairports! (don't know how finished it is though)
15:58:49 <U1> heard it was a pain with the pathfinding on the tarmac
15:59:16 <Eddi|zuHause> that is done by predefined state machines
15:59:17 *** Frankr is now known as Guest593
15:59:25 <Eddi|zuHause> defined by the GRF
15:59:44 <U1> Rubidium: but thanks, ill check it out :)
15:59:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but like Rubidium said, it's still unfinished
15:59:59 <U1> i think ill check it out anyway, im a sucker for airplanes
16:00:34 <Yexo> as user it's currently worthless
16:00:54 <Yexo> there are no aircraft grfs yet with a big capacity, and the spec will most likely change
16:03:05 <U1> the zepelin bay looks awesome tho
16:04:22 <Yexo> but that one isn't coded yet
16:04:38 <U1> i like where its heading :)
16:08:48 <U1> oh cool. public airports seems nice
16:12:35 <Ammler> but those blimps are like helicopters or is that also new feature with newairports?
16:14:33 <Benny> I've forgotten how to set game settings with rcon again...
16:15:04 <Benny> rcon *pass* set setting raw_industry_construction 1 doesnt work
16:15:36 <Benny> rcon *pass* set 'setting raw_industry_construction 1' doesn't work either
16:16:01 <U1> just rcon *pass* <command>
16:16:40 <Benny> wait what? password after the command?
16:17:28 <Benny> error, command or variable not found
16:17:31 <U1> rcon pass "setting raw_indystry_constryction 1"
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17:13:07 <SpComb^> hmm, the sixth roman campgin mission is a little more tricky
17:13:27 <SpComb^> because they actually attack you first :o
17:14:05 <Noldo> 4. was the one with ships for the first time?
17:14:33 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
17:23:40 <Eddi|zuHause> in S2TNG they reworked the missions a bit, because they removed the vikings
17:27:10 <peter1138> surprising, drivers for my wacom tablet are still developed
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17:28:53 <peter1138> er, whoops, didn't mean to place that
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17:46:13 <SpComb^> Noldo: yes, chapters 1-4 are tutorials, 5 onwards is more challenging
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18:27:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19252 /trunk/src/console.cpp: -Fix [FS#3639]: writing (console) output to a file failed on Windows if the date would not be logged.
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18:46:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r19253 /trunk/src/lang/ (20 files): (log message trimmed)
18:46:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 1 changes by Kayos
18:46:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 5 changes by Kwokfu
18:46:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 8 changes by VoyagerOne
18:46:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 2 changes by SmatZ
18:46:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: danish - 21 changes by beruic, silentStatic
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18:52:17 <planetmaker> hm... how do I go there: I have a list of files (which reside in my current dir and sub dirs) and I want to copy the whole thing in a sub dir of my current working dir.
18:52:38 <planetmaker> cp -r $filelist directory
18:53:34 <Belugas> i'd grab a mouse to do that
18:53:45 <planetmaker> filelist = `hg st -A | grep -v '? ' | grep -v 'I '`
18:53:47 <Belugas> that must be why i have a cat :S
18:54:01 <planetmaker> Belugas, yes, but... that's not a good use in a makefile ;-)
18:56:37 <planetmaker> hm... I need a list of dirs, first create the dirs, then it would work...
18:57:22 <Zuu> I sometimes use -R for recrusive copy, though I don't remember the difference now. :-)
18:57:39 <planetmaker> the man page tells me it's synonymous
18:58:36 <OwenS> -R tends to be more widely accepted
19:06:37 <Eddi|zuHause> is there a version of TBRS for the NARS-style "narrow" rails?
19:06:40 *** ajmiles has joined #openttd
19:12:03 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: for i in $(hg st -A | grep -v '? ' | grep -v 'I ' | cut -f2 -d' '); do dirname $i; done | sort | uniq <--- for the dirnames
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19:35:19 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
19:39:38 <Eddi|zuHause> when the cat follows the mouse cursor with his eyes, i sometimes fear he will jump at the screen...
19:40:40 <aber> Historic versions of the cp utility had a -r option. This implementation
19:40:41 <aber> supports that option, however, its behavior is different from historical
19:40:41 <aber> FreeBSD behavior. Use of this option is strongly discouraged as the
19:40:41 <aber> behavior is implementation-dependent.
19:46:40 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, thanks :-) That will do the trick :-)
19:47:00 <planetmaker> (I know with a bit of delay, was afk :-P )
19:53:22 <Belugas> delay? someone mentionned a delay? I WANT MY GUIT AND MY DELAY!!!!
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19:58:35 * planetmaker wants a certain person's music as midi files
19:59:39 <Belugas> a certain other person told me about the wish of someone else of bloody midi files
19:59:56 <Belugas> and... let say... it's quite not possible...
20:00:03 <planetmaker> so I was told :-(
20:00:21 <Belugas> i cannot make my parts midi files, not to mention the effects i'm using
20:00:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19254 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_config.cpp newgrf_text.cpp): -Codechange: simplify newgrf text code by introducing a few helper functions
20:00:31 <Belugas> even peter's parts might be hard to
20:00:40 <Belugas> plus... those are all imporvisations
20:00:51 <planetmaker> well, no worries :-) it seems some people caught a bit fire. Which is nice to see
20:00:56 <Belugas> imagine.. we'd had to reperfomr it all, using who knows what
20:01:22 <planetmaker> Belugas, why re-perform? Just play away and then pick what is good ;-)
20:01:30 <planetmaker> That was my initial idea behind the question
20:01:44 <planetmaker> But not everything would possibly fit the topic
20:01:53 <Belugas> honestly? none wold, i'
20:02:09 <Belugas> we're all but jazzy :D
20:02:24 <planetmaker> yes, so? Does it all HAVE to be jazz?
20:02:48 <planetmaker> I'm quite ready to also accept other style.
20:05:32 <peter1138> we could wire up the live stream to the in game player
20:05:39 <peter1138> then we have to play music 24/7
20:05:42 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19255 /trunk/src/ (15 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: encapsulate GRFIdentifier in GRFConfig instead of subclassing it
20:06:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19256 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: use a constructor/destructor for GRFConfig to make sure all members are properly initialized
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21:06:10 <peter1138> hah, router upgraded, and i can now ssh out
21:07:20 <Rubidium> security upgrades! :)
21:08:09 <peter1138> when from v1.00b01 (20040204, or something) to v1.00b02 (20040610)
21:08:33 <Rubidium> why? Now systems at your little end of the internet can't hack my ssh server! That's more security for ME!
21:09:24 <ccfreak2k> Your little endian.
21:10:35 <Rubidium> peter1138: hmm, that's even from before the Debian SSH debacle
21:10:47 <peter1138> the router doesn't have ssh...
21:14:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r19257 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: minor coding style fix
21:15:06 <ccfreak2k> "Debian" doesn't spring to mind with "security" unless you mean "lack of".
21:15:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it's called "Debian stable", not "Debian secure" :p
21:15:59 * SmatZ always consider Debian to be one of most secure distros :-/
21:16:44 <__ln__> Debian "if-it's-too-hard-to-patch-then-we-leave-it-unpatched"
21:17:03 <OwenS> __ln__: i've never seen them leave a security issue unpatched
21:17:36 <Rubidium> ccfreak2k: I'd say Debian is better w.r.t. OpenTTD security support than either Ubuntu or Gentoo
21:18:21 <OwenS> Rubidium: Gentoo's Gentoo, and Ubuntu probably goes "Debian are tracking it; let's wait on them and steal their work" :p
21:18:26 <__ln__> OwenS: I don't have any references at hand, but for example some ancient version of Firefox in stable, and some ancient version of PHP. (You know, they only backport, no version upgrades in stable.)
21:18:44 <__ln__> And I'm not talking about the most current stable here.
21:18:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19258 /branches/1.0/src/ (11 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
21:18:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
21:18:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Feature: [NewGRF] Add 2 bits of pseudo-random data for rail types, based on tile location (r19235)
21:18:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Writing (console) output to a file failed on Windows if the date would not be logged [FS#3639] (r19252)
21:18:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Some GRF error messages did not free the previous error messages, creating a memory leak (r19251)
21:18:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: With RTL languages clicking a horizontal scrollbar that could not scroll could cause a crash [FS#3643] (r19250)
21:18:53 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Start and end tiles were swapped in CMD_REMOVE_LONG_ROAD causing too much road to be removed [FS#3642] (r19249)
21:18:55 <OwenS> __ln__: They fix the bugs. Stable gets no new versions; it's part of it's definition and RHEL is the same
21:19:11 <Rubidium> OwenS: Ubuntu is "it's in multiverse, so we can't be bothered even if someone makes debdiffs for us"
21:19:24 <ccfreak2k> The whole idea of vendor-specific patches makes me cringe.
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21:19:58 <OwenS> ccfreak2k: Never look at Fedora (or similar)'s GLIBC patchlist then
21:20:02 <Rubidium> gentoo is already waiting 2 months to 'stabilize' 0.7.5
21:20:20 <Rubidium> ccfreak2k: so you're using LFS?
21:20:21 <__ln__> OwenS: That is assuming the fixes are small enough to be backported with the available resources.
21:20:28 <ccfreak2k> I'm using Slackware, actually.
21:20:52 <OwenS> __ln__: Of course. But they fix all security bugs I've seen. If it's a functionality bug, they can leave it.
21:21:53 <OwenS> (Ubuntu & Debian have standardized on the fork named eglibc. Fedora could never do that, though, since Unlrich "I'm-not-discussing-this-it's-not-a-bug" Drepper works for Red Hat
21:23:59 <Rubidium> ccfreak2k: what version of zlib is slackware using?
21:25:05 <Rubidium> so they at least changed something since its release
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21:32:36 <DJNekkid> if anyone might be interested im gonna broadcast from tonights gig ... im starting in a little more then an hour
21:36:47 <planetmaker> gah. what a pain. kwin went bye bye.
21:37:07 <planetmaker> And I copy & pasted the single letters of kwin from the browser to a xterm in order to restart it
21:37:23 <sparr> so, "differs from TTD" seems to be a factor in the importance of bugs in openttd, am i right?
21:37:26 <planetmaker> as the xterm didn't accept keyboard input anymore - but mouse copy& paste worked :-P
21:39:30 <andythenorth> every time I go in the 2.0 thread I want to post a fail icon :|
21:39:40 <Rubidium> aber: my *recent* experience with user supplied patches is that 1 in 2 backfires enormously, i.e. results in total failure to compile
21:40:01 <Rubidium> user supplied patches for Mac OS X issues that is
21:41:46 <Rubidium> so I rather focus on fixing 1.0 bugs/issues that involve the supported platforms than some unsupported platform that has the tendency to horribly break somewhere else if a change is made
21:42:18 <frosch123> did someone look up the old 1.0 thread?
21:42:55 <frosch123> what will be in 1.0 or so
21:43:07 <frosch123> just like the current 2.0 spam :)
21:43:23 <frosch123> i am quite sure there was one
21:43:25 <Rubidium> frosch123: if the storm settles we'll move it to suggestions :)
21:43:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19259 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19230): Road stops were not removed in case of bankruptcy.
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21:44:53 <ccfreak2k> Why is Nite_Owl awake right now/
21:45:43 <Nite_Owl> because he got up a little while ago as he usually does
21:45:58 <Rubidium> ccfreak2k: he's using tor and is actually in central Romania or so
21:47:03 * Nite_Owl goes to sleep when the sun comes up and awakes in the late afternoon
21:49:18 <supdood> how do i play a scenario in multiplayer?
21:49:32 <supdood> do i start it in singleplayer and save, and then load in multiplayer?
21:49:37 <sparr> planetmaker: was investigating a bug with competition between stations, and the general vibe i got was that the importance of the bug was related to whether or not the behavior differed from TTD
21:53:51 <ccfreak2k> supdood, using the GUI?
21:54:20 <supdood> ccfreak2k: yes, only have the client, rc1
21:54:43 <ccfreak2k> I'm looking at the GUI window for it, and there's "Generate random new game" and a list of scenarios.
21:55:14 <supdood> in multiplayer i only see generate random new game :/
21:55:36 <ccfreak2k> Do you -have- any scenarios?
21:55:57 <supdood> got 4 scenarios if i press, play scenarios
21:56:33 <Zuu> Does anyone know a wiki page that lines out which direction is north/west etc and/or 0, 1, 2 etc.?
21:57:05 <Zuu> Eg -1, -1 in relative coordinates then.
21:57:20 <ccfreak2k> I don't know what coordinate system is used.
21:57:39 <planetmaker> <supdood> do i start it in singleplayer and save, and then load in multiplayer? <-- yes
21:57:44 <Nite_Owl> I thought North was upper right hand corner ??
21:57:48 <Zuu> Just made an AI that placed 8 relative signs with the relative coordinates on them.
21:58:40 <planetmaker> Nite_Owl, the corners of the map are up, left, right and down
21:58:43 <Zuu> Would need to encode dirrections as a number 0-7 or something. Would be nice to use the same encoding as OpenTTD uses, but is not neccessary.
21:58:48 <planetmaker> So, upper right corner is difficult ;-)
22:00:01 <Zuu> I'm trying to separate constructing airports from building the feeder drop bus stops and would like to make it search outwards from the airport/train station/etc.
22:00:39 <Nite_Owl> Upper right corner of monitor then
22:00:41 <Rubidium> Zuu: take a look at direction_type.h
22:01:23 <planetmaker> sparr, if it has always been that way (also in TTD) it's not really a bug
22:01:35 <Belugas> mmh... time to hit the roads
22:01:43 <planetmaker> Doesn't mean that things cannot be changed with good reason - and given proper context
22:02:04 <Zuu> Rubidium: Thanks, just what i was about to assume, given that up (screen-coordinates) is north.
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22:06:09 <Nite_Owl> did not the TTD map icon have an arrow pointing to the upper right corner of the screen as North or did I remember wrong ??
22:11:10 <planetmaker> coop uses for a reason unknown to me upper left as North
22:11:23 <sparr> Nite_Owl: i believe different TT/TTD documentation referred to the top of the screen or the top right of the screen as north
22:11:46 <sparr> planetmaker: yeah, this is the opposite. was one way in ttd, was implemented "wrong" in openttd version 0.1 (afaik), has been wrong ever since
22:16:01 <ccfreak2k> Gotta love those grandfathered-in bugs.
22:20:58 <sparr> Nite_Owl: one simple reason to prefer the top left or top right (edge of the map), instead of the top (corner of the map) is because you can draw a compass with arrows and labels pointing at the edge, but not at the corner.
22:21:15 <Zuu> Oo, if you search for "direction" you don't find the "directions" page in the wiki.
22:21:18 <sparr> draw with track, that is :)
22:21:22 <Zuu> How do you add a redirect?
22:22:26 <sparr> also, one might argue for the row/column tile numbering as a basis for directions
22:22:35 <sparr> with the first row running west to east along the north edge of the map
22:22:37 <planetmaker> sparr, you can draw a compass pointing each of the 8 directions...
22:22:54 <planetmaker> though the 4 principal ones are easier.
22:22:56 <sparr> planetmaker: not with arrows or text :)
22:23:09 <Nite_Owl> I was only going by what I remembered that icon to be which is what I always used in my own head
22:23:17 <planetmaker> with tracks is what we do
22:23:20 <sparr> and they won't all cross in the center unless you use double track for the diagonals
22:23:38 <sparr> Nite_Owl: it's confusing enough that I usually try to refer to landmarks
22:23:44 <sparr> "in the corner by Cityville"
22:26:40 <Zuu> I just didn't find it as I searched for "direction"
22:27:11 <Zuu> I've created an image with relative tile coordinates and indexes too which I'll either put there or in the NoAI section.
22:28:23 <ccfreak2k> I use the "official" compass because it's easier to understand.
22:28:33 <Zuu> sparr: That's not the one used in OpenTTD source code.
22:28:49 <sparr> Zuu: interesting. where do direction names come into play in the source?
22:28:57 <Zuu> I prefer to stick to the one used in the sources for my AIs.
22:29:23 <Zuu> [23:00] <Rubidium> Zuu: take a look at direction_type.h
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22:29:50 <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: the names are in direction_type.h, also they are used for station naming
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22:30:35 <Zuu> In PAXLink I will use it to store the relative dirrection from a station where clear tiles have been found so that I can rotate the bus stops in a good way.
22:31:30 <OwenS> Since nobody seems to have mentioned, and I'm curious, is the north vector (1, 1) or (0,0)? :-P
22:31:48 <Eddi|zuHause> PS: the X axis points towards south-west, and the Y axis points towards south-east
22:32:36 <sparr> not calling Y+ "North" is confusing
22:32:57 <planetmaker> sparr, quite not so ;-)
22:33:13 <planetmaker> it all depends upon definitions
22:33:22 <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: direction of X and Y is according to the right hand rule
22:33:26 <sparr> Zuu: I should point out that the comments in direction_type.h say that different directions are used "in you games" :)
22:33:36 <OwenS> sparr: Thats something I agree with. Theres a reason my projects's north vector is (0 0 1) rather than OpenGL's default (0 0 -1). Even though that requires massaging things slightly :-P
22:33:54 <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: huh? that only dictates their relative orientation, has nothing to do with absolute
22:34:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it comes by (0,0) being the top corner, and z being upwards (screen)
22:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause> leaves only one direction for X and Y
22:34:39 <sparr> OwenS: yeah, been there. in my head, Z+ is "up", Y+ is "north", and X+ is "east", and I'd rather write wrappers to keep it that way than have to constantly remember conflicting systems
22:35:00 <OwenS> sparr: Heh. In my head, X+ is east/right, Y+ is up, Z+ is north/forward
22:35:30 <sparr> my bias is based on paper maps
22:35:46 <Zuu> sparr: Are you saying that 1, 0 is North?
22:35:59 <OwenS> One area I'd say DirectX is more clued than OpenGL, but you can fix it anyway simply
22:36:44 <OwenS> (With the added oddity that now all of your vertices get wound in DirectX order rather than OpenGL order)
22:36:51 <sparr> Zuu: (X,Y,Z)... (1,0,0) is east, (0,1,0) is north, (0,0,1) is up. that's how it works on most paper maps.
22:37:11 <Zuu> Ok, though I've used x,y :-)
22:37:13 <Eddi|zuHause> what's a "paper map"?
22:37:15 <sparr> paper maps of the northern hemisphere east of the prime meridian :)
22:37:48 <sparr> but Z+ being "up" SEEMS universal, except when it comes to programming
22:38:10 <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, more importantly, where did he get 3D paper from?
22:38:12 <sparr> X and Y being parallel to the reference horizantal surface
22:38:22 <ccfreak2k> Maybe it's a cardboard box?
22:38:48 <sparr> I think MilkShape3D also defaults to Y+ being "up"
22:39:02 <Eddi|zuHause> programming coordinate systems is "fun", because the screen coordinates have their Y axis reversed...
22:39:18 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Not on OS/2 :p
22:39:26 <OwenS> (Hence the upside-downness of .bmps)
22:39:51 <Zuu> " * This enum defines 8 possible directions which are used for
22:39:54 <Zuu> * the vehicles in the game. The directions are aligned straight
22:39:54 <Zuu> * to the viewport, not to the map. So north points to the top of
22:39:54 <Zuu> * your viewport and not rotated by 45 degrees left or right to get
22:39:54 <Zuu> * a "north" used in you games.
22:39:54 <Zuu> " Sounds to me like north is up in screen coordinates.
22:40:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, north is up.
22:40:12 <ccfreak2k> Didn't I say that a while ago?
22:40:19 <Zuu> Why is sparr then trying to convince me that it is 1,0 or 0,1 then?
22:40:22 <Eddi|zuHause> (0,1) in screen coordinates, (-1,-1) in map coordinates
22:40:45 <Zuu> Oh, he was using screen coordinates...
22:40:58 <Zuu> well, then I don't need to re-make my image :-)
22:41:47 <ccfreak2k> Let's argue over something else now.
22:44:35 <Eddi|zuHause> really funny it gets when it comes to distances...
22:45:09 * andythenorth is pretty certain where the north is
22:45:12 <Eddi|zuHause> (-1,-1) is length 2 when it comes to calculating delivery distance, 1.4 when it comes to pathfinder distance, and 1 when it comes to vehicle movement distance
22:45:12 <Zuu> Yea, got some Sweref99 coordinates to intreprete today. :-)
22:45:52 <OwenS> Delivery does manhattan distance? O_o
22:46:37 <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of the problematic unbalances in the game
22:46:40 <OwenS> Even when I'm doing visibility calculations for ~10000 objects I don't resort to manhattan (I stick with square distances since I just need order :P )
22:46:41 <sparr> and trains move faster diagonally
22:46:47 <sparr> so diagonal deliveries are doubly bonused
22:49:28 <Eddi|zuHause> it would be fairly simple to just switch to 1-distance for deliveries, quite more problematic to switch to square/euclidean distance for vehicle movements
22:50:02 <sparr> stupid game exploit question...
22:50:32 <sparr> when is the location of the source station recorded, for use in calculating delivery distance?
22:51:48 <Eddi|zuHause> there once was a bug when the location of the source station was calculated on delivery, and might have been deleted since then, and (0,0) being assumed instead
22:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how that was fixed
22:52:07 <sparr> interesting, as that would affect my idea
22:52:16 <sparr> my idea being to move the source station while the vehicle is en route
22:53:53 <OwenS> Record source industry? :-P
22:55:32 <sparr> when does the delivery timer start?
22:59:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r19260 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: another minor coding style fix
23:01:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19261 /extra/masterserver_updater/src/ (shared/mysql.cpp shared/newgrf_config.h updater/udp.cpp): [MSU] -Fix (r19255): make the master server code compile again
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23:10:52 <OwenS> Hmm. /me adds a "const" specifier. String a, b; (a + b) = c is silly and should not compile!
23:14:20 *** Coco-Banana-Man has quit IRC
23:17:12 <Zuu> no squirrel destructor? :-(
23:17:55 <Zuu> Having to revert values at all function exit points explicitly sucks :-(
23:19:24 <Zuu> Neither is there a try - finally statement.
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23:26:14 <Progman> is there a documentation file of the general layout of the grf format? (not the nfo files)
23:27:06 <Rubidium> lmgtfy.com?q=grf%20format
23:29:27 <Progman> this doesn't say there is a spritecounter at the beginning
23:31:26 <aber> "with no meta-information" I would say this is inspired by a c String
23:31:34 <Progman> nor the pseudo sprites are in the format {size} 0xff {data}
23:31:37 <Rubidium> Progman: that's because the spritecounter is not part of the GRF file format
23:32:14 <Rubidium> e.g. the base graphics grfs don't have a sprite counter
23:32:41 <Rubidium> also in grf.html "if infox==0xff, the sprite is a special type...."
23:34:11 <Rubidium> i.e. it mentions pseudo sprites, only doesn't call them that
23:34:14 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
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