IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-11-28
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00:33:10 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
00:33:53 <PeterT> What ever happened to DarkVater?
00:34:49 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Dark* could be DarkTakua (4 weeks, 4 days, 20 hours, 31 minutes, and 5 seconds ago), Darkvater (23 weeks, 2 days, 4 hours, 53 minutes, and 22 seconds ago), DarkSSHClone (36 weeks, 1 day, 4 hours, 14 minutes, and 41 seconds ago), DarkED (40 weeks, 4 days, 0 hours, 43 minutes, and 22 seconds ago), darks (46 weeks, 6 days, 14 hours, 33 minutes, and 10 seconds ago), dark (47 weeks, 3 days, 9 hours, 7 minutes, and 43 (1 more message)
00:35:03 <DorpsGek> Sacro: seconds ago), darkkid (2 years, 13 weeks, 3 days, 8 hours, 24 minutes, and 45 seconds ago), or Darkebie (2 years, 20 weeks, 6 days, 4 hours, 22 minutes, and 5 seconds ago)
00:35:17 <Sacro> DarkVater and DarkSSH are him
00:35:21 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 11 weeks, 3 days, 4 hours, 35 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <Bjarni> Belugas: there is no reason to write to PeterT. We already know he is unable to read anyway :P
01:05:50 <DorpsGek> _ln: Tron was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 41 weeks, 4 days, 11 hours, 42 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <Tron> gcc 2.95 is plain obsolete (even has several bugs in its C++ part). further at the very least the justifications given are extremely oversimplified.
01:07:12 <DorpsGek> PeterT: DarkVater was last seen in #openttd 23 weeks, 2 days, 5 hours, 25 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <Darkvater> I'm liking this
01:07:22 <DorpsGek> PeterT: I have not seen DarkSSH.
01:08:13 <_ln> DorpsGek: even i have, why haven't you?
01:17:46 <SpComb> what's the setting to control if trains ever try and turn around while waiting at signals?
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01:20:51 <PeterT> wait_for_pbs_path or something like that, SpComb
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02:02:34 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
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03:17:29 <SpComb> amazing how you can spend 15 years tweaking your passenger network, and then realize that it's only got a dozen stations
03:26:42 <SpComb> playing trunk@r18309 + cargodist@18284
03:26:47 <SpComb> , and it's been fine so far
03:27:49 <SpComb> one thing I'm missing is the more deeply nested tree in the station view
03:27:57 <PeterT> You merged trunk 18309?
03:27:57 <SpComb> as it is, you only see one level of next-hop
03:28:19 <SpComb> I patched trunk@r18284, and then updated to r18309 (newest at that point)
03:28:23 <SpComb> the merge was one line
03:29:19 <SpComb> r18284 would crash when you tried to build a station (catchment area for station of zero width or somesuch)
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04:21:46 <mickster04> does anyone know how to get 0.7.4RC1 with aptitude?
04:33:41 <mickster04> i need to use a command line to get the newest version
04:36:37 <mickster04> i think i can work around it
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04:51:50 <mickster04> man i am getting this server thingLD
04:51:56 <mickster04> command line is awesomeD
04:52:46 <mickster04> for future reference, wget the package, then install that, for ubuntu 9.1 you will need libicu38... so find that an wget it, i had it already downloaded...
05:07:33 <PeterT> Yeah, I always had trouble with the libicu38 part :-)
05:07:44 <PeterT> Oh, he isn't here anymore :O
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06:29:28 <Rakin> Which version of openttd uses the original ai
06:32:12 <Rakin> Which version of openttd uses the original ai
06:32:15 <Rakin> Which version of openttd uses the original ai
06:32:19 <Rakin> Which version of openttd uses the original ai
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09:47:53 <Ch0Hag> Why would anyone want the original AI?
09:49:39 <Rubidium> because they were better than the old AIs but not better than the current AI?
09:50:05 <Ch0Hag> SO it's a step forward if and only if you're using an ancient version of openttd.
09:50:09 <Ch0Hag> Which there's no need to do.
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10:19:21 <planetmaker> hm... Sm4tZ gave me once a command line option which allowed to start openttd for <n> ticks and have it exit then. But I don't recall and I don't find it.
10:20:54 <planetmaker> background: I'd like to compare speed of different binaries
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10:34:41 <petern> using the null video driver
10:40:54 <planetmaker> ah. that was the trick. Thanks :-)
10:41:22 <planetmaker> Completely different question, petern : Are you in possession of road tiles from the simutrans comic pak?
10:41:54 <planetmaker> hm, ok. Then I was wrongly informed :-)
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10:45:28 <planetmaker> do you still follow your road / track types idea actually?
10:49:58 <Ammler> petern: didn't you once publish a hg repo with comic roads?
10:50:16 <Ammler> he, sorry then planetmaker :-P
10:51:16 <petern> Ammler, yes i did, but i had drawn those myself
10:51:41 <petern> planetmaker, the code is all still there, waiting for someone to pick up on it
10:51:45 <Ammler> well, those were nice, iirc ;-)
10:52:09 <petern> Ammler, they're still there
10:52:24 <petern> Ammler, but there wasn't a complete set of roads
10:52:46 <Ammler> I guess, planetmaker has someone who would like to work on roads
11:05:11 <planetmaker> Is there a public repo for those roads? Or would you mind to share them with me / with Auge for this purpose?
11:25:36 <Ch0Hag> Can you replace a vehicle with the same type, newly built?
11:32:52 <Alberth> in the advanced settings, under the vehicles->autorenew, you'll find the settings
11:33:06 <Alberth> an update of the wiki would be appreciated :)
11:37:00 <Ch0Hag> When do vehicles decide to renew themselves?
11:37:19 <Ch0Hag> At least two of these crusty old buses have services themselves without being upgraded.
11:37:27 <Ch0Hag> And two others got upgraded when I wasn't looking.
11:37:48 <Alberth> why you want it, what happens, a picture, perhaps
11:38:30 <Ammler> Ch0Hag: isn't that explained on the 2nd link Alberth posted?
11:38:34 <Alberth> (12:38:18 PM) Ch0Hag: When do vehicles decide to renew themselves? <-- is that at the wiki?
11:38:37 <Ch0Hag> Anyone who's ever played tt for more than 5 minutes knows why you want it.
11:39:02 <Ammler> Ch0Hag: not everyone ;-)
11:39:10 <Ammler> some disable breakdowns
11:39:27 <Ch0Hag> Locomotion frequently gets to the point that I spend all my time renewing trains.
11:40:15 <Ammler> how many trains can you have with locomotion?
11:40:34 <Ch0Hag> I don't know. I never got that far.
11:40:45 <Ch0Hag> I was always too busy renewing them o build new ones.
11:40:55 <Alberth> well, a discussion of openttd.cfg variables is not the first that comes to mind when thinking about autorenew ;)
11:41:18 <Ch0Hag> Yeah that seems more like it wouldn't be an advanced option.
11:41:38 <Alberth> maybe you are an advanced player ;)
11:48:49 <Ch0Hag> If it were a marketable skill, I'd have enough experience to walk in to any job.
12:03:16 <Ammler> autorenew is a gui setting?
12:04:29 <Ammler> or is that the old from "patches" time?
12:14:31 <Alberth> I don't understand thos questions. What is a 'gui setting'? what 'patches' do you refer to?
12:26:40 <Ch0Hag> Train 1 breaks down milliseconds after leaving the depot, so I tell train 2, which is now blocked, to ignore the signal.
12:26:43 <Ch0Hag> And it goes into the depot.
12:29:12 <Alberth> have some patience with trains :)
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13:25:20 <_ln> omfg, someone has finally renamed "patch settings" to something more sensible
13:28:17 <frosch123> what are you doing in this channel, if you haven't used ottd for a year?
13:29:23 <Rubidium> someone must have lived in a cave for a very long time...
13:30:05 <Alberth> september 8, 2008: (svn r14275) -Change: Rename 'Configure patches' to 'Advanced settings'. to be precise :)
13:30:33 <frosch123> wasn't it even backported?
13:31:38 <_ln> frosch123: talking off-topic things, of course. and i haven't had time to play within the past year.
13:33:11 <Alberth> possibly due to the swittch to the tree-ish view of the advanced settings.
13:33:26 <_ln> besides, i tend to get kicked almost every time i talk something on-topic.
13:35:02 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r18310 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Introduce widgets for the names of the parts in the advanced face editing window,
13:38:47 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18311 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: no need to hardcode locations of some 'random' windows
13:40:53 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r18312 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Simplify the nested widget part arrays of both face windows, and move a bit towards merging.
13:42:46 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r18313 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Decide the size of the widgets displaying values of parts in the advanced face window dynamically.
13:43:27 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r18314 /trunk/src/timetable_gui.cpp: -Fix: Disable 'start date' button for timetable windows of other companies.
13:44:05 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r18315 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Remove fixed minimal sizes of the other widgets in both face windows.
13:45:15 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r18316 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Introduce selection widgets to enable turning parts of the face window on and off.
13:48:09 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r18317 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Merge both face windows into a single window description and widget parts array.
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13:54:40 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18318 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: add an enum value for manual window placement
14:07:21 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r18319 /trunk/src/timetable_gui.cpp: -Fix: Timetable window wrt. big/small fonts.
14:30:12 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18320 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Codechange: make the terraform and transparency window not use absolute location but manually calculate based on toolbar size etc.
14:36:56 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18321 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#3331]: make the toolbars also calculate their top location based on the main toolbar's height instead of hardcoding that
14:42:47 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18322 /trunk/src/ (48 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: remove the WDP duplication; no need to tell the same twice.
15:00:57 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18323 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3330]: credits were drawn on the border of the window
15:02:01 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18324 /trunk/src/ (22 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: there's no need for a default size when the window isn't resizable
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15:12:38 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r18325 /trunk/src/ (51 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Use GetSpriteSize() instead of hard {SETX}. Also make the 'current order'-arrow in order and timetable GUI RTL aware.
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15:21:47 <TrueBrain> (just wanted to spoil the endless commits without any conversation)
15:21:53 <_ln> good evening to you too, sir
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16:10:44 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r18326 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Fix (r18325): Missing signedness conversion.
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16:26:13 <SpComb> man, cargodist is hard
16:26:24 <SpComb> the stations have like waaaay too many passengers
16:27:10 <SpComb> but it still has annoying issues like if you build a tram station in a big town next to a major train station, then you've suddenly got 1500 passengers that all want to ride the 35-passenger tram
16:27:21 <SpComb> a distance of five tiles or so
16:27:47 <PeterT> that's cargodist for you
16:30:57 <SpComb> and figuring out the passenger flows is still a bit cryptic
16:31:04 <SpComb> I've been using capacity vs planned flow so far
16:31:18 <SpComb> (i.e. planned flow > capacity -> increase capacity)
16:32:09 <Rakin> which version of openttd has the original ai
16:33:54 <frosch123> 0.6.3 has a broken old ai, if you mean that one
16:35:19 <Rakin> where can i get a transport tycoon deluxe with the original ai which work in vista
16:35:30 <frosch123> google for ttdpatch
16:36:37 <Rakin> can u give me a link with ttd and ttdpatch
16:38:40 <PeterT> Or use the broked AI :-p
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16:56:53 <SpComb> and on top of it, said trams are earning negative amounts of money whenever they stop
16:56:58 <SpComb> how the heck does that happen?
16:57:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you are using transfers
16:58:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not really negative, but you earn less than was previously expected when unloading at the intermediate stop
16:58:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so for the last stop you earn (real amount) - (sum of all transfers)
16:59:09 <Eddi|zuHause> which may be negative, especially if going backwards
17:01:15 <PeterT> it's a strange system, yes
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17:13:02 <PeterT> -Sacro- VERSION irssi v0.8.14
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17:31:49 <Ch0Hag> Do town ever upgrade their bridges?
17:31:54 <Ch0Hag> Wooden bridges are ugly.
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18:05:54 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but you can overbuild them
18:06:20 <SpComb> boo, are there no terminus-style tram stops?
18:07:11 <Eddi|zuHause> anything to come in that direction will depend on the newgrf airports to be finished
18:19:15 <PeterT> What's not finished about NewGRF Airports?
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18:22:54 <Alberth> yexo made a first step, but haven't seem him a long time
18:23:30 <Ch0Hag> So it doesn't so much need to be finished as started.
18:24:17 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it WAS started (twice)
18:35:44 <Alberth> Ch0Hag: lots of projects get started here, but only few also finish
18:36:00 <Alberth> (or get to a working state)
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18:42:21 <PeterT> Alberth: Good way to put it
18:45:46 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r18327 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:46 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:46 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: catalan - 26 changes by arnau
18:45:46 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 24 changes by josesun
18:45:46 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
18:45:47 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
18:45:47 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: greek - 30 changes by
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20:15:31 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r18328 /trunk/src/ (44 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Remove last usage of {SETX} from strings.
20:24:57 <frosch123> TrueBrain: do you feel like repairing wt3, if i break it? :p
20:25:20 <TrueBrain> so don't break it :)
20:25:38 <frosch123> can wt3 deal with stuff being removed from -export-commands
20:26:09 <TrueBrain> dunno .. it should reload it once in a while, no idea if that would work
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20:27:54 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r18329 /trunk/src/ (strgen/strgen.cpp table/strgen_tables.h): -Remove: [strgen] Support for {SETX} and {SETXY}. Let it rest in peace as NewGRF relict.
20:29:14 <TrueBrain> Files /var/www/finger.openttd.org/scripts/strgen-updates/inst_dir/trunk/commands.txt and /var/www/finger.openttd.org/htdocs/strgen/trunk/commands.txt differ
20:29:15 <TrueBrain> Files /var/www/finger.openttd.org/scripts/strgen-updates/inst_dir/trunk/version.txt and /var/www/finger.openttd.org/htdocs/strgen/trunk/version.txt differ
20:29:18 <TrueBrain> at least that is picked up correctly :)
20:29:31 <TrueBrain> no idea then what :p
20:30:07 <TrueBrain> nope, WT3 didn't noticed it yet
20:30:53 <frosch123> does it compile strgen itself? :o
20:31:09 <TrueBrain> it can ask you to do it, but that might lag too much
20:31:31 <Zuu> was you able to solve the bananas upload issue?
20:31:31 <frosch123> dunno, it could wait for the nightly
20:31:39 <Zuu> or did it even solve by itself :-)
20:31:47 <frosch123> sorry truebrain for summoning you
20:32:00 <TrueBrain> Zuu: no idea; the error was completely weird
20:32:10 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I wouldn't reply if I wouldn't want to :p
20:32:37 <Zuu> TrueBrain: So you tried to upload yourself and it worked all fine?
20:33:05 <TrueBrain> and I want to bet if you try it now, it works :p
20:33:32 <TrueBrain> every time we restart django, it works ... and if it fails, it is impossible to find out why
20:34:56 <Zuu> hmm, that looks like development. I have given myself a development ban for the rest of the evening for having developed far to much the last days. :-)
20:34:59 <TrueBrain> frosch123: weird .. despite the fact all notification went okay, WT3 never updated itself :(
20:35:32 <TrueBrain> but okay .. SETX and SETXY are no longer valid commands
20:35:37 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18330 /trunk/src/ (32 files in 6 dirs): -Cleanup: remove some unneeded includes
20:39:37 <frosch123> yeah, now we only need to silently remove the support for them from newgrf without anyone noticing :p
20:40:04 <TrueBrain> just commit it, but don't let CIA announce it!
20:41:56 <glx> just make it not explicit ;)
20:42:36 <TrueBrain> or ask Rubidium for a commit message :p
20:43:07 <Zuu> There should be a method to escape commit messages so that they can not be understood by users :-)
20:43:20 <TrueBrain> well, escape them! :)
20:44:16 <TrueBrain> @base 36 2 RemoveSETXfromNewGRFsupport
20:44:16 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 10010010011110010001010111000000011100100001100111100000100001001011101101111011100111101100011110101010100001011101001110001011101010101001
20:44:17 <frosch123> maybe, when the string codes are mentioned in decimal, no nfo coder would recognise them
20:44:45 <Rubidium> frosch123: 1 hex is still 1 dec
20:45:06 <frosch123> ok, but at least 31
20:47:13 <Zuu> Or jus Lojban / Esprento and hope that not too many people actually know them.
20:47:18 <TrueBrain> "dambumirri dambumirri rulu" <- you got to love wikipedia :)
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21:08:11 <_ln> so the Berlin wall wasn't always built exactly at the border, interesting
21:08:30 <Eddi|zuHause> _ln: no, the wall was not on the border
21:08:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it was well into east german territory
21:16:10 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> yeah, now we only need to silently remove the support for them from newgrf without anyone noticing :p <-- how about making it proportional to font size/other stuff? like make it a fraction of the width of <letter> (e.g. 'M'), where with the default font, that fraction gets close to 1?
21:16:57 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the only usage of setx i know of is indenting stuff in vehicle purchase list for oversized sprites
21:17:38 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and DanMacK threatening to use it all over the place ;)
21:17:44 <frosch123> the second theoretical usage is to create columns in some kind of table, but haven't seen one yet
21:18:18 <frosch123> but actually this topic has been discussed too much :p
21:18:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i know, but it didn't come up with a solution
21:18:43 <TrueBrain> Random stats: 1000+ users registers to OpenTTD.org webservices
21:18:55 <TrueBrain> (wiki, bugs, BaNaNaS, translator)
21:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: so that's about 1% of the player base?
21:19:24 <TrueBrain> have you count our player base?
21:19:38 <TrueBrain> it is 1000% of the irc users of OpenTTD :p
21:19:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i think Rubidium made an estimate recently
21:20:01 <Eddi|zuHause> coming up with a number around 100.000
21:20:05 <TrueBrain> then we first need to talk about what you define as 'player base'
21:20:25 <TrueBrain> ever downloaded? Keeps updating? Plays more than once?
21:22:07 <TrueBrain> either way, about << 10% who visit openttd.org has an account :)
21:22:16 <TrueBrain> (14,000 unique people a day visit openttd.org)
21:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> interesting would be a uniqe visitors per year, but you can't really get stats about that
21:24:55 <TrueBrain> even Google doesn't go that far :p
21:25:20 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can hardly track dynamic ips for more than one day ;)
21:25:44 <TrueBrain> you could in theory track a /24 or so, and use User-Agent and surf-behavoir to match them
21:26:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i think my IP jumps more than a /24 every day
21:29:00 <TrueBrain> I don't understand dynamic IPs in these days, but okay .. that is another story :p
21:29:16 <frosch123> long life for ipv4 !
21:29:52 <_ln> i have a dynamic ip that has been unchanged since june 2008.
21:30:05 <TrueBrain> this week a company called and offered network hardware .. so I told them we require them to carry IPv6 (layer3 switches) .. it was silent for a moment, and the response: sorry, our switches do not support that. Well .. bye then!
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21:31:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the ISPs here are not keen on switching to IPv6 either...
21:31:24 <TrueBrain> no ISP is .. "customers do not want it", they reply
21:31:36 <TrueBrain> well, I am happy to have our ISP IPv6 ready and serving
21:32:37 <TrueBrain> although at first they did not want to give us a /48, but only a /96 ... after a long talk that lucky is a /64, still .. relatively small
21:34:29 <Eddi|zuHause> how many bits is it over all? 128? so you have still more addresses than the entire IPv4 space?
21:34:44 <TrueBrain> but they also go a LOT faster :)
21:35:03 <TrueBrain> you link 1 domain to 1 IPv6, as it was meant to work
21:35:14 <_ln> is the IPv6 porn project already online?
21:38:34 <_ln> there was/is a plan to offer good quality porn movies for download for free, but only through IPv6.
21:38:59 <_ln> to make IPv6 more popular.
21:39:54 <fjb> Hope they would not use stripped down IPv6.
22:01:31 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: are you thinking what I'm thinking, i.e. "huh?!?"
22:05:42 <_ln> are you thinking what I'm thinking, i.e. "theonion.com"
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22:11:51 <Fast2> Do you really use the word "panzerkampfwagens"?
22:12:33 <frosch123> Fast2: try the abbreviation
22:14:35 <Fast2> That's PKW (which means ""Personenkraftwagen").
22:15:12 <frosch123> you must be living in a weird universe, if it means that
22:17:28 <Fast2> According to your nickname, I assume you're german, so you should know the meaning of "PKW"
22:19:10 <frosch123> sorry, i was joking, you are right
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22:20:07 <Fast2> Now I'm completely confused
22:20:39 <Rubidium> nah, frosch123 isn't German... he's Deutsch
22:20:59 <frosch123> does that matter in a worldwide nation empire?
22:21:58 <_ln> besides, in a worldwide empire, is there even a need for a generalized term of a volkswagen?
22:22:08 <_ln> due to lack of other brands
22:22:49 <Fast2> frosch123: Ah, I reconstructed your mind.
22:23:34 <frosch123> _ln: i guess you are mixing up german dictatorships. the article is not about the one with only one brand for everything
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23:54:50 <SpComb> first long-distance electric train \o/
23:54:53 <SpComb> and it's not even 1971
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23:57:02 <Rubidium> like... I know a (relatively) long distance electric train in 1964
23:57:50 <Rubidium> (assuming 500 km can be considered long distance)
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