IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-06-28
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01:57:44 <Nite_Owl> this is quiet time as most of the Europeans are asleep
02:02:39 <Audigex> aye, i probably should be too :-)
02:02:57 <Audigex> i would've thought there'd be more yanks on though?
02:03:10 <Audigex> what with it being about 5-11 ish over there
02:03:25 <Audigex> if my time zone guesses are right
02:04:01 <Nite_Owl> yanks are far and few between around here oddly enough
02:04:42 <Audigex> they dont have the same finesse for trains :-)
02:05:10 <Audigex> can you blame them? 50 varieties of diesel powerhouse
02:05:26 <Nite_Owl> US is not as heavily railed either
02:05:34 <Audigex> yeah, they love their cars
02:05:40 <Audigex> i always get bored with the NARS
02:05:45 <Audigex> nicely made, and looks good
02:05:56 <Audigex> but every single one is a hugely powerful diesel that tops out at 95mph
02:06:21 <Nite_Owl> Give the US Transition Set a try
02:07:40 <Nite_Owl> Similar to NARS but without the regearing and early start
02:08:12 <Nite_Owl> so you have to be a bit more selective in your loco choice
02:10:31 <Audigex> what's the regearing in the NARS?
02:10:40 <Audigex> I may have missed part of it :-)
02:10:52 <Nite_Owl> yes regearing - most of the diesels in NARS v2 can be regeared to be fast or slow
02:12:10 <Nite_Owl> with a loss of traction, HP, etc.
02:12:58 <Audigex> either way, i'm not a big fan of them just in terms of lack of variety
02:14:15 <Nite_Owl> The other US set I mentioned has lots of variety
02:15:45 <Nite_Owl> Approximately 75 different engines depending on climate
02:17:14 <Audigex> is that the "US Set" one?
02:17:22 <Audigex> i can't find the "transitional" one
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02:20:00 <Nite_Owl> be sure to get the ReadMe as well
02:20:11 <Audigex> little gent's room etc
02:29:01 <Nite_Owl> time to fly - later all
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09:02:19 <petern> what've i done wrong :s
09:05:03 <Alberth> trusting that you are safe for water falling from the sky?
09:15:08 <petern> i had forgotten a return statement at the end of a function
09:15:32 <petern> instead of the compiler complaining, it returned a pointer from somewhere else
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09:16:53 <TinoDidriksen> But had a return statement in a conditional?
09:17:43 <Tefad> talking about coding style
09:17:44 <TinoDidriksen> if() or other branch.
09:18:07 <TinoDidriksen> It should very much complain about no return path, but may not complain about one path not having one.
09:18:24 <Tefad> instead of falling throw to the bottom and modifying a default return value along the way through the function
09:20:31 <TinoDidriksen> -Wall -Wextra -ansi -pendantic
09:25:08 <petern> warning: unused parameter ‘argc’
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10:51:11 <planetmaker> And please tell me, if they don't work (especially windows)
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11:42:53 <George> Hi. Question about banans
11:43:20 <George> Would it be possible to have some "impotant change" flag for GRF?
11:43:53 <George> So, if a game is started with the previous GRF version, it should be forced to use the new one?
11:45:05 <Alberth> as soon as we can change newgrfs in-game, that would become a feasible option.
11:45:34 <Alberth> however, fulfilling the pre-condition may take a long time
11:46:20 <Ammler> not supporting doesn't mean, it isn't possible.
11:46:40 <Alberth> Ammler: you don't get red error messages with "game may crash" texts when changing newgrf's in-game?
11:47:09 <Rubidium> George: that requires OpenTTD to have a direct internet connection when loading *any* savegame
11:47:16 <Alberth> ah, you want a flag so you can force a crash :)
11:47:27 <Ammler> Alberth: yep, but it works, if you know, what you do.
11:47:54 <Rubidium> Ammler: history has shown most people do not know what they do
11:48:06 <Ammler> and a grf dev should know, if his grf is downwards compatible.
11:48:08 <Alberth> and with the flag, the grf author gets that control
11:48:59 <Rubidium> Alberth: only when the user consents to OpenTTD checking whether there is such a NewGRF each time you load/start a new game
11:49:46 <Rubidium> given the fact that lots of people still play offline *or* cannot connect to bananas from OpenTTD due to firewalls etc. this feature is bound to be incomplete
11:50:31 <Alberth> well, it could happen also when I upload a new grf version for the next game, then load the old game
11:51:02 <Alberth> (of course that is trickier as it implies copying of the flag to the user machine
11:51:04 <Rubidium> and what is a "impotant [sic] change"? And what NewGRFs should it exactly force to upgrade? What is people are using duplicate GRF IDs (YES that happens!)
11:51:50 <frosch123> and to which grfs should it apply, only the previous version (how shall it detect that), or shall isr 8 force upgrading from isr 1
11:51:56 <Rubidium> and what if I use ECS alpha1 town vector and George says ECS final 27.9 is an "important change"? Should it update? Bets are it is vastly incompatible
11:52:27 <Rubidium> frosch123: shall isr 8 with "important change" force downgrade from isr 9?
11:52:54 <Ammler> the current problem now is also, if you have the newest version of a grf but also an older "buggier" version, if you then load a save with a 3rd version (somewhere between), then it could load the older buggier version.
11:52:56 <Alberth> and force from 8 -> 9 too :)
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11:53:39 <frosch123> so, only solution: wait for noai to establish an approved solution for ais, and the do the same for newgrfs including "minimal savegame version"
11:53:47 <Rubidium> Ammler: but *forcing* an update doesn't solve your problem!
11:54:05 <Ammler> forcing a update would mean, it needs versioning
11:54:31 <Rubidium> you *just* need a versioning system in NewGRFs
11:54:33 <Korenn> I don't want games to force anything on me. it can suggest stuff to me, but I should have the control
11:55:19 <Rubidium> preferably one that tells me what version is newest and what version is the (newest) *compatible* version for a savegame
11:55:38 <Ammler> Rubidium: why is that such a big issue?
11:56:44 <Ammler> compatiblity "should" be there with the GRFID
11:56:58 <Rubidium> Ammler: if I've a savegame with ISR 8.0 and ISR 8.1 and ISR 9.0 on my hard disk (available for OTTD), which one should it chose? The compatible one or the incompatible but newer one?
11:57:33 <Rubidium> Ammler: we ALL know that GRFIDs are not changed at all, regardless of the specs kindly suggesting to that on incompatible changes
11:57:36 <Ammler> he, isn't that obvious?
11:58:05 <Rubidium> with either "forcing" or "take the newest" you're screwed
11:58:16 <Alberth> no, in particular if I hate the new features in 9.0
11:58:35 <George> Rubidium: It may need a field to choose version to replace
11:58:38 <Ammler> Alberth: I meant of course 8.1
11:59:14 <Ammler> as 9.0 should have a new GRFID
11:59:40 <Rubidium> Ammler: we all know that that ain't going to happen unless enforced
12:00:14 <Alberth> Ammler: so can you not extend in a backwards compatible way and call that 8.1? I still am getting new stuff I don't necessarily want
12:00:16 <Ammler> well, sometimes, they do, sometimes not
12:00:31 <Ammler> but mostly because they aren't aware of the need.
12:01:02 <Ammler> it is something introduces from OpenTTD
12:01:34 <Rubidium> the request to change grfid when making it incompatible?
12:01:42 <Ammler> that you load another GRID with same ID
12:01:56 <George> Rubidium: What is wring in adding versions to GRFs?
12:02:16 <Ammler> ttdpatch does only look for the path
12:02:20 <George> As soon as it tested with AIs ..
12:02:21 <Rubidium> George: nothing, just that it is something that someone needs to do
12:02:58 <George> Rubidium: I hope AIs code can be used? at least as idea?
12:04:16 <Ammler> Alberth: if you don't want to update, don't download teh newer version.
12:05:15 <Ammler> well, indeed, updating shouldn't be forced but somehow supported.
12:05:45 <Alberth> Ammler: how do you find out you don't like the new features then?
12:06:15 <Ammler> but now it does load a random grf, why is that better?
12:07:32 <Ammler> so wouldn't be loading the newest compatible be best alternative?
12:08:28 <Ammler> (and if the exact same newgrf is availabe, giving a option to update)
12:09:02 <Alberth> Don't know. As long as the user is in control, it does not matter much what you propose by default.
12:09:33 <Ammler> hmm, well, you could update by removing and readding
12:10:49 <Ammler> he, now I see, it isn't a big thing with the gui, you have that problem only on the console.
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12:34:57 <welshdragon> i'm not the server admin
12:35:18 <welshdragon> but is2 beta 3 seems to be causing a lot of desyncs
12:40:02 <Ammler> welshdragon: could you reproduce them?
12:40:29 <welshdragon> Ammler: /join #is2-prozone
12:59:42 <Ammler> dbg: [grf] [2cc_trainset.beta_2.02/2ccdj.grf:1] FeatureChangeInfo: Invalid pseudo sprite length 4 (expected 6)! <-- could that desync?
13:00:20 <Rubidium> not really as it happens for all clients
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13:39:26 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> indeed. Probably is patience ~age^x with x > 1 <- you might wanna limit age to >0, too ;)
13:39:46 <Eddi|zuHause> and add a personality constant
13:40:09 <Eddi|zuHause> some people are never really going to be patient
13:41:13 <Alberth> he just discussed the general shape of the curve :p
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13:44:58 <Eddi|zuHause> <petern> planetmaker, impatient <- the last time i tried to put up a rule when to use which prefix, it came out like: "un-" when the word starts with a vowel, "im-" when it starts with a "p", "ir-" when it starts with an "r", and "in-" when it starts with another consonants... but probably there are more exceptions than words following this rule ;)
13:46:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and yes, i am reading a day-old backlog :p
13:46:27 <Alberth> You can always explicitly list the words that you support by the rule :p
13:48:16 <Eddi|zuHause> all those have a double meaning with your question ;(
13:49:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but then there are words like inedible
13:49:57 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and i forgot "illogical"
13:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> all that is so much easier in german...
13:51:03 <Eddi|zuHause> in 95% of the cases it is "un-" in german
13:54:47 <Alberth> Unfortunately, I could not follow German instead of French in high school
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14:30:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16680 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Codechange: don't go through all the station unloading stuff when there is no vehicle at the station
14:33:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16681 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Codechange: only resolve the company once for vehicle payment instead of each time a cargo packet is delivered
14:36:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16682 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Codechange: make (static) industry list used to trigger the industries' production compile unit static instead of passing it around as pointer
14:36:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: breaking fonsinchen's patch? :p
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14:40:20 <Rubidium> I am breaking my own patch though
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15:13:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16683 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: move the cargo payment handling to a seperate class. Based on ideas of fonso/fonsinchen.
15:17:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r16684 /trunk/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: Add maxdim function for Dimension struct.
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15:32:25 <petern> doesn't r16678 mean some pointless copying of data in some cases?
15:32:50 <petern> returning a struct rather than a pointer to a struct
15:33:35 <petern> in Get(Production|Acceptance)AroundTiles
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16:13:20 <rasco> or does anyone else know whether basecosts.grf is in content.openttd.org?
16:13:26 <rasco> because i cant find it there
16:15:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it is there
16:15:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i got it from there a while back...
16:16:16 <Eddi|zuHause> if in doubt, it should also be on grfcrawler
16:16:16 <rasco> theres only Modified Building Costs
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16:16:40 <rasco> well but i need people to be able to get it via in-game downloader
16:18:00 <Ammler> rasco: I can upload it
16:18:04 <Eddi|zuHause> actually you don't. you can create a game locally with basecosts, then remove the grf from the savegame
16:18:23 <Eddi|zuHause> then load the savegame on the server
16:18:31 <Eddi|zuHause> so people do not need the grf
16:18:51 <Eddi|zuHause> this is one of the rare cases where removing a grf actually works
16:19:02 <rasco> Eddi|zuHause: uhhh but i have random maps
16:19:07 <rasco> Eddi|zuHause: my server is on 24/7
16:19:17 <rasco> Ammler: that would be reeealy cool
16:20:20 <Rubidium> :O more underused servers
16:20:52 <rasco> Rubidium: whaddya mean?
16:21:09 <Rubidium> on average number of players < number of servers
16:21:18 * Belugas thinks that users creating servers are acutally users who like to see the game running with zero intervention on their part...
16:21:22 <Rubidium> meaning that on average you are alone on a server
16:21:30 * Belugas goes back to freaking real life
16:21:36 <rasco> my server is pretty well visited :)
16:22:15 <Ammler> rasco: it is there, just hidden from main stream users ;-)
16:22:30 <Ammler> but it should be accessable if loaded on the server
16:23:00 <Ammler> if not, tell me, then I need to change min version
16:25:14 <rasco> Belugas: care to explain more exactly what you mean
16:25:19 <Ammler> it isn't a really nice code
16:26:22 <Rubidium> rasco: what Belugas means is that servers need to be managed in some way otherwise people will cheat/'deface' your server
16:26:32 <Rubidium> and give it a bad name etc.
16:27:07 <rasco> yup, i have 4 or 5 admins, and discard town destroying commands and stuff like that
16:27:19 <rasco> could be more admins but oh well..
16:27:49 <Ammler> 1 is already more then 90% of the other servers have. ;-)
16:27:55 <rasco> of course its not soo easy to find trusworthy ones especially when it's a high score server
16:52:17 <Ammler> what's a high score server?
16:54:53 <rasco> the game ends when one company reaches a company value of x
16:55:17 <rasco> the companies on the first places get scores
16:55:39 <rasco> (works with !login etc. commands in chat)
17:03:07 <Ammler> rasco: can you define different goals?
17:03:17 <Ammler> or just company value?
17:03:39 <rasco> at the moment it's only company value
17:03:49 <rasco> but i had a server back a few months ago where
17:04:04 <rasco> where you had to connect at max 10 cities with one train
17:04:24 <rasco> the more cities the train passed the more points you got
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17:04:44 <rasco> (quite a dirty hack in coding terms, but it worked :))
17:06:30 <Ammler> when do the best players usually play?
17:08:58 <rasco> at what time of the day?
17:15:16 <Ammler> when is it worth to join?
17:20:28 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
17:24:54 <rasco> maybe european evening time
17:25:08 <rasco> like for example now there are 12 players on speedy 2
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17:36:09 <Ammler> rasco: how long does a game take?
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17:40:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r16685 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt:
17:40:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-06-28 17:40:12
17:40:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: korean - 3 fixed, 28 changed by leejaeuk5 (31)
17:44:18 <rasco> it depends on the goal of course
17:44:30 <rasco> goals are from 1 to 50 million
17:44:43 <rasco> so, it can take an hour or a couple of hours
17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r16686 /trunk/src/lang/german.txt:
17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 4 changes by planetmaker
17:48:55 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: finally it accepts spaces in {G ...} and {P ...}? ;)
17:51:12 <Ammler> he, you finally agreed to switch :-P
17:52:06 <Ammler> rasco: do all "Goal" servers use same code base?
17:53:56 <rasco> all speedy's use my code
17:54:12 <rasco> and back until 0.6.3 there was kurt's
18:07:16 <rasco> are you interested in it?
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18:31:12 <Ammler> rasco: we do sometimes a coopetition 2vs2 or also with yexo's head-2-head branch
18:33:01 * Ammler is wondering, if there would be interests in a permanent running head-2-head server, which automatically restarts
18:33:43 <Ammler> but people, who use custom builds is very limited
18:37:07 <Ammler> he, 15 clients on your server but all are silent
18:46:07 <rasco> yea most people dont talk alot :/
18:46:33 <rasco> ive been thinking aobut doing something for teamplay
18:48:00 <Ammler> current server has no "real" competive place
18:48:15 <Ammler> everyone does service his own industries/towns
18:49:13 <planetmaker> [20:38] <Eddi|zuHause> [19:48:55] planetmaker: finally it accepts spaces in {G ...} and {P ...}? ;) <-- already supported for a bit. But WT3's search function made searching easier :)
18:51:44 <rasco> well alot of people are not very "aggressive"
19:10:26 <rasco> Ammler: any ideas how it could be improved?
19:11:19 <Ammler> he, I started a company
19:12:02 <Ammler> but I didn't check the start year
19:12:41 <Ammler> there is no trains in default set until 1950, you know?
19:13:09 <rasco> oh damn is it 1930? gah, i forgot to recompile
19:13:56 <Ammler> you could use 2cc set with parameter 9
19:15:59 <rasco> ah there is one train available? pheww..
19:16:06 <rasco> okay no problem then. just freakin early :)
19:22:10 <Ammler> well, you have the same engine now for 20 years
19:24:58 <rasco> i changed the starting_year randomizer to include more early years a while ago. maybe i should change it back. what do you think?
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19:28:15 <Ammler> rasco: well, if you play for 2 hours, starting at 1930 with default set is stupid.
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19:30:40 <Rubidium> why would you recruit people for the army in here?
19:31:56 <Ammler> oftc has very bad spam filter
19:32:01 <Rubidium> [x] unfit (for the Dutchies: ongeschikt)
19:32:07 <Ammler> I never see such things on freendoe
19:32:28 <Alberth> I have already served out majesty :)
19:33:10 <Ammler> I am at day 200, need around 230
19:34:25 <Rubidium> Ammler: that you don't see it on freenode might very well be due to:
19:34:27 <rasco> hehe, click this button to be recruited
19:34:41 <Rubidium> a) freenode kicking people without actually doing something wrong
19:34:59 <Rubidium> b) you are not in a 'public' (by connection) enough channel
19:35:47 <Rubidium> after all, those bots usually roam using whois
19:36:07 <LadyHawk> i have some fun experiences with freenode as well
19:36:12 <Rubidium> freenode, the server where you can't join #openttd
19:37:21 <LadyHawk> i was in a channel that was forced to leave
19:37:38 <LadyHawk> because we were victims of an attack
19:38:13 <LadyHawk> same happened on dalnet
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19:39:00 <LadyHawk> are these guys um... getting blocked in the spamfilter?
19:39:13 <LadyHawk> with /!\ in their part message by any chance?
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19:46:19 <Ammler> LadyHawk: same happened here with opendoom clans, afaik.
19:48:26 <SpComb> more like fighting amongst themselves
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20:10:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r16687 /trunk/src/ (settings_gui.cpp window.cpp window_func.h window_gui.h): -Codechange: Perform re-initialization of windows with nested widgets after a language change.
20:25:19 <SmatZ> I was thinking about making channel +m and use "delayed autovoice" feature
20:25:36 <SmatZ> but it needs someone with ops to be connected
20:25:44 <SmatZ> with client with ability for that
20:25:55 <SmatZ> (konversation can't do delayed autovoice :-/
20:26:12 <SmatZ> glx: yeah, but I am afraid too many people would be forbidden to join then :(
20:26:24 <SmatZ> maybe only when there is a wave of spam :)
20:29:40 <Ammler> can't the bot do that?
20:30:02 <SmatZ> DorpsGek isn't user-friendly when I ask him for "help"
20:32:03 <frosch123> autovoice? so the average join-anyonehere-leave-noob has to skip the anyonehere part?
20:32:33 <rasco> Ammler: do you have any recommended settings for base_costs together with av8?
20:33:14 <Ammler> it should theoretically support it, but I said, it is very old ugly code
20:33:37 <SmatZ> frosch123: do you mind? :)
20:33:55 <frosch123> might become quite in here :)
20:33:56 <Ammler> well, autovoice after around 5 secs is already fine
20:34:04 <SmatZ> frosch123: maybe he will think there is anyone actually here when someone gives him voice ;)
20:34:16 <Ammler> or does such a spamer stay longer?
20:34:36 <SmatZ> no... it joins, spams and leaves in 1 second :)
20:34:52 <SmatZ> but I am afraid it can change in future...
20:34:54 <Ammler> DorpsGek could also make a motd with links to the wiki and search
20:35:35 <Ammler> SmatZ: you just have to be faster then ;-)
20:36:09 <frosch123> hehe, "enter the second word of the page about transfers in the wiki to gain voice"
20:36:49 <planetmaker> frosch123: why 2nd?
20:36:56 <planetmaker> You want people to read it.
20:37:01 <frosch123> planetmaker: randomised
20:37:04 <planetmaker> 2nd last of 3rd paragraph
20:37:34 <SmatZ> Supybot seems to know to autovoice only people on "autovoice list"
20:37:59 <SmatZ> <*status> No such module [autovoice]
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20:50:05 <Ammler> [22:37] <SmatZ> Supybot seems to know to autovoice only people on "autovoice list" <-- same with znc according to the help
20:51:39 <LadyHawk> [28/6][20:46:22] <Ammler> LadyHawk: same happened here with opendoom clans, afaik. << those bots just seem too familiar to me
20:52:03 <LadyHawk> they're a major pain in the bum on my own irc server
20:52:19 <LadyHawk> they keep changing their spam
20:52:23 <LadyHawk> and never stop coming
20:53:25 <LadyHawk> it's some irc proxy bullsh*t and once you start using it, it turns you into a spambot because their software goes and spams
20:57:51 <Ammler> autovoice of znc does voice immediately, that wouldn't work
21:09:33 <andythenorth> thoughts on cable cars?
21:10:06 <LadyHawk> i thought you could set a delay in znc Ammler?
21:11:47 <LadyHawk> hmm i can't see it anywhere
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21:23:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r16688 /trunk/src/ (intro_gui.cpp town_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Some cleanup of intro screen and town directory.
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22:23:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r16689 /trunk/src/ (intro_gui.cpp town_gui.cpp widget.cpp window_gui.h): -Codechange: Allow for rendering of parameterized text of nested widgets in Window::DrawWidget, adapt intro and town directory windows.
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22:42:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r16690 /trunk/src/yapf/yapf_node_rail.hpp: -Fix [FS#3002]: Missing debug string for ESRB_SAFE_TILE in YAPF debugging helper.
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