IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-04-19
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02:24:24 <Pikka> that guy uploaded MB's grfs to bananas... D:
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03:42:14 <HerzogDeXtEr1> ahhhh openttd.org is down
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04:37:05 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16087 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r16079): slow trains wouldn't crash into eachother anymore
05:19:42 <George> frosch: [20:14:49] <frosch123> George: does ECS modify the cargo classes of goods and fruit? -> Not yet.
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06:48:17 <Alberth> another pirate in the channel.
07:00:01 <Rubidium> is it pirate day again already?
07:01:59 <Rubidium> nope, it's in 5 months
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08:00:15 <el_en> "Ab 21 Jahren", wtf, Volkswagen.
08:02:08 <Alberth> What do you expect? The car industry is desperate for attention in order to sell their cars.
08:04:09 <el_en> how do they enforce that, or is it just a meaningless cool-looking phrase?
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08:14:00 <Alberth> just as any other desperate industry, with maximal amount of non-negative publicity
08:15:17 <Alberth> ie yesterday I got a card from one of our postal services, where they invite me to check 'how green are you' at their website. Now if that isn't desperate :)
08:15:32 <goodger> VWAG is doing very well indeed
08:16:19 <Forked> Alberth: it was a trick.. you failed by wasting energy on taking a silly test :p
08:17:40 <Alberth> I failed by throwing the card into the bin, more likely
08:17:54 <Forked> you should have recycled it
08:18:37 <Alberth> (maybe they expected me to send it back to them.... Hmm, I failed again :p )
08:20:21 <goodger> their European subsidiary outclasses its corporate overlord by so much it's difficult to tell whether they'd be better off spun off
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08:30:42 <OsteHovel> When did the where to stop at the station came into openttd?
08:30:55 <OsteHovel> (far-end / near-end / middle) thing :P
08:33:26 <Alberth> At 2009-04-12 16:11:14
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09:05:55 <Rubidium> it is (and was back then) CEST
09:06:58 <Alberth> I should convince hg to use UTC everywhere! Much too complicated all those time zones :)
09:08:13 <jonty-comp> the internet should run on UTC
09:08:28 <jonty-comp> and then people configure their timezones at their end
09:08:54 <jonty-comp> then it can say "18:00 UTC/19:00 OTHERTIMEZONEHERE"
09:09:47 <Alberth> jonty-comp: yes, my computer does, but then you get these 'friendly' user-interfaces that convert the time stamp to a non-UTC one :(
09:10:04 <Rubidium> timezones are a flawed concept anyway
09:10:56 <el_en> just use Swatch Internet Time.
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09:12:31 <Alberth> I never trust a concept that has a name with a trade-marked brand in it.
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10:22:04 <frosch123> Thanks, but I do not need a "K"
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10:31:43 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16088 /trunk/src/ (21 files): -Codechange: merge HighLightStyle and ViewportHighlightMode as they are basically the same thing
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10:42:00 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: alberth * r16089 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Removing the ORDER_WIDGET_RESIZE_BAR widget
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11:40:29 <MapperOG> is there an official (alpha) package of the 32bbp graphics?
11:41:47 <Rubidium> depends on what one would could official
11:45:03 <MapperOG> I mean packaged from the coordinator of that subproject
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11:46:14 <Rubidium> that'd need a coordinator
11:47:25 <OsteHovel> Thanks Alberth (it was a little late to thank you but i was afk...)
11:47:46 <OsteHovel> Aint 32bpp support in SVN?
11:48:28 <Rubidium> support for 32bpp graphics is in OpenTTD since 0.6
11:50:09 <MapperOG> yes, support is in. But there's a project that aims to additional zoom levels (and resp. HiRes graphics), and it lookes pretty nice :)
11:50:25 <Rubidium> in-game or the screenshots?
11:51:02 <padshance> when is released ottd with a full 32bpp pack to play?
11:51:08 <padshance> its difficult to install :X
11:51:19 <frosch123> dbset 0.9 will be released as 32bpp only
11:51:25 <dihedral> it's difficult to install?????
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11:51:37 <padshance> Rubidium do you know where i can post my new huge portugal map?
11:51:44 <welshdragon> afternoon Swallow
11:51:45 <dihedral> frosch123, "full" is the keyword in the question
11:51:59 <padshance> i did one and i can release to all players have fun with my country xD
11:52:01 <dihedral> padshance, forums or bananas
11:52:06 <welshdragon> padshance, www.tt-forums.net
11:52:34 <welshdragon> bananas.openttd.org
11:53:02 <frosch123> padshance: if you are using ottd 0.7 you have a "download online content" button in main menu, which offers lots of scenarious and heightmaps already
11:53:33 <frosch123> well, but that stuff is called bananas
11:53:35 <padshance> and i want give to all players
11:54:33 <welshdragon> padshance, upload it to tt-forums.net and bananas
11:55:28 <padshance> i try to open bananas site and say me error
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12:00:28 <OsteHovel> I have a 32bpp .tar file that i have downloaded for openttd that haves some new grapics...
12:00:35 <OsteHovel> and i have copied it into data/
12:00:42 <OsteHovel> but how get openttd use the file
12:01:29 <OsteHovel> Seach for the file with the NewGRF thing
12:01:36 <OsteHovel> But it does not show up
12:01:50 <dihedral> have you considered reading / searching for documentation
12:02:06 <dihedral> perhaps "searching for" before "reading"
12:02:07 <OsteHovel> Seaching at the wiki :P
12:02:22 <OsteHovel> Thats where i found the .tar file :P
12:03:00 <dihedral> when i search for 32bpp i get 3 pages
12:03:18 <petern> you need to use a 32bpp blitter
12:03:28 <petern> which is set in the config or via -b
12:03:47 <dihedral> i was just searching in the wiki to find that :-P
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12:35:44 <MapperOG> how to use the additional zoom levels?
12:45:31 <glx> patch, compile, get the tars, use a 32bpp blitter
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12:47:09 <MapperOG> so it's not in the current 0.7.0
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12:52:49 <MapperOG> will it be included into future versions?
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13:06:36 * welshdragon is wondering if he should attempt to update infrastructure sharing to latest nightly
13:10:53 <Swallow> what is the difference in revisions between IS repo and trunk?
13:11:31 <welshdragon> well, having not looked i can't telkl
13:12:06 <welshdragon> i'm trying to create a win32 binary that's all
13:12:38 <welshdragon> having not been around for 4 days i haven't seen what the updates have been
13:13:59 <welshdragon> (and nor do i have any idea where to start)
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13:21:45 <Aali> (that was 3 minutes ago)
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13:23:20 <welshdragon> (i had got TortoiseSVN
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13:31:38 <welshdragon> hmm, where to unzip MInGWPORT?
13:31:52 <welshdragon> (it doesn't say on wiki)
13:32:49 <welshdragon> do i need it for windows?
13:33:22 * welshdragon currently only has his PC
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13:34:38 <welshdragon> Rubidium, do i need the MinGWPORT if i am running windows?
13:35:06 <welshdragon> ok... wasted download then
13:35:10 <Yexo> welshdragon: if you just need an hg client on windows, you can download tortoisehg
13:35:10 <Rubidium> mingwport is only for getting and easily building some libraries that you mind find useful
13:35:30 <Rubidium> why would you need mingw anyways?
13:35:39 <Rubidium> besides compiling win9x compatible binaries
13:35:49 <welshdragon> to build a win32 binary of ISbeta2
13:36:40 <welshdragon> that's the main reason
13:36:51 <Rubidium> can be done with MSVC too
13:37:51 <welshdragon> i don't have MSVC tools on this pc i *think*
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14:11:32 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r16090 /trunk/src/ (50 files in 4 dirs): -Fix: s/Slovakish/Slovak/ (unimatrix)
14:42:15 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r16091 /trunk/src/ai/ (ai_gui.cpp api/ai_log.cpp): -Change [FS#2778]: Reverse the order of the lines in the AI debug window
14:46:30 <[wito]> Is there a "native" japanese town names file?
14:47:38 <Yexo> native as in built-in? in that case no
14:48:57 <[wito]> because the JapanSet one is a bit one-tracked
14:53:57 <Pikka> you could make your own, wito :] town names are probably the easiest grf to make, especially if you just want to make a list of real names rather than using the random component system
14:55:16 <welshdragon> or just rename them in the scenario editore
14:55:24 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: alberth * r16092 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2829]: Resizing the order window also resizes the button bars.
14:59:43 <Zariel> hm, whats the best roro station for large capacity (factory/sawmill/steelmill) station using PBS?
15:00:41 <Yexo> use that one, but remove all signals except the first presignal
15:00:50 <Yexo> replace that presignal with a pbs-signal
15:01:16 <Zariel> still toying with NN_SS mailline using pbs sideline junctions
15:03:03 <XeryusTC> Zariel: that entry is most likely more effecient with mainly presignals when using suffecient braking space/buffer space
15:03:40 <XeryusTC> also, that image is like ancient and made with npf still running it seems :o
15:07:35 <el_en> when will the whole game be implemented as a grf?
15:09:12 <Noldo> what on earth would that mean?
15:14:31 <Alberth> you don't need a openttd binary then any more, you could execute the grf file :p
15:14:35 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r16093 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Feature [FS#2808]: Add GetURL() as possible function to info.nut. If AIs implement it, that url is shown when the AI crashes and also in the AI selection window.
15:14:53 <Patrick> yapf is driving me nuts
15:15:07 <Patrick> my trains are turning into a red signal to save 10 tiles of space
15:15:16 <Patrick> and it's jamming my network
15:15:58 <Patrick> any way to do it without messing with the internals?
15:16:07 <Patrick> clever rail building tricks
15:16:24 <Yexo> maybe if you show a savegame/screenshot of the problem area
15:16:58 <XeryusTC> usually the problem is unelectrified track or wrong signalling related ;)
15:17:24 <Patrick> it's a priority to make 1 line merge jam-free with another
15:17:46 <Patrick> but it's being ignored some of the time - I checked the track and signalling, it's definitely right
15:18:29 <Alberth> Patrick: make the red-signal path longer or the detour shorter?
15:18:48 <Patrick> I already messed with travel paths a bit
15:20:02 <Patrick> if it 404'd try it again
15:20:38 <Patrick> waypoint oredump is just off-screen, it's a nonstop station that makes the inner rail have the best path by about 10 tiles
15:20:42 <XeryusTC> make the other lane a presignal too
15:20:49 <XeryusTC> or make the signal that trains turn to two way
15:21:45 <Patrick> bizzarely enough, making it a two-way worked
15:21:46 <Progman> Patrick: there can be also a bug in your network so the train can only reach his target by switching the line
15:22:08 <Patrick> no, the target is just off-screen as well and all 4 lines connect to it
15:23:19 <Patrick> THAT'S COMPLETELY RANDOM
15:23:30 <Patrick> making the entry signals 2-way has fixed the mistaken trains
15:23:42 <[wito]> there's some jazz on teh wiki about how one-way and two-way signals differ
15:24:21 <[wito]> one will have them choose the best path, ALWAYS; one will have them choose the green, ALWAYS
15:24:21 <Aali> red two-way signals have infinite penalty
15:24:26 <Yexo> Patrick: there is a different penalty for a red two-way and a red one-way signal
15:24:36 <Yexo> Aali: that depends on a setting iirc
15:24:40 <Patrick> a red two-way means a train could be coming the other way
15:24:44 <Patrick> hence, NEVER block on it
15:24:51 <Patrick> I can see the rationale now :D
15:25:03 <Aali> Yexo: sure, you can turn that off
15:25:17 <Aali> but per default, they are EOL
15:27:22 <Patrick> now, for my next invention
15:27:38 <Patrick> a pattern recognition rail that spots when there's a trainlength available as a slot on a line
15:27:51 <Patrick> and banks up a third train in a holding loop of the correct phase to fill it
15:27:55 <Patrick> rather than relying on random chance
15:28:32 <Patrick> I also want to deduce the equation for station platform length
15:29:15 <Patrick> if I have a nearly-packed line of nose to tail full speed 4 tile chimeras, it needs 10-12 platforms for a drop to ensure there's no blocking and no flow interruption
15:30:34 <[wito]> meaning that one can roll on while one rolls of!
15:33:56 <Patrick> signals on bridges first
15:34:14 <Patrick> or, disable the pathfinder and the "I'm timid" signals on depot exits
15:34:20 <Patrick> have 30 trains in the same tile
15:34:28 <Patrick> not pathfinder, collision detection
15:37:37 <Patrick> next question: loading times
15:37:49 <Patrick> I reckon 10 platforms per mainline
15:42:42 <Patrick> also, whoever pushed the station builder window into mainline is a saint
15:42:55 <Patrick> no longer do I have to demolish a build path into the center of a city to get my catchment area up
15:43:30 <[wito]> Patrick: you could always creep with drive-thru road stops, tho'
15:43:47 <Patrick> aah, that's a new(ish) feature I didn't think of
15:44:18 <[wito]> of course, just deleting a single building and plopping a rail station is a lot simpler
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16:04:56 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r16094 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Fix: AIDebug window profiled the blitters by invalidating itself unconditionally on repaint. OTOH it was not invalidated in other cases when needed.
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16:09:46 <petern> oh, distant join stations
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16:31:44 <Xaroth> thar, new update AutoTTD.
16:32:00 <Xaroth> sf takes longer and longer :/
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17:17:51 <fjb> I still don't get it why people don't build a bus line line instead. That would actually grow the town and gives far more income than one station tile.
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17:26:08 <[wito]> fjb: a station tile grows the town as well
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17:49:39 <fjb> More stations grow the town faster.
17:50:15 <jonty-comp> as long as they transport stuff
17:50:19 <[wito]> How far is NewGRF airports from trunk?
17:50:30 <jonty-comp> about as far as you can get
17:50:39 <jonty-comp> especially as it's now closed down
17:50:47 <jonty-comp> unless you mean the new one Pikka's masterminding
17:51:01 <jonty-comp> which, according to richk, will take about eleventy hundred years
17:52:11 <fjb> Bye bye, Neverwinter time.
17:58:52 <[wito]> Why all the talk of FSMs in the airport discussion?
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18:02:19 <Patrick> don't wanna grow towns
18:02:23 <Patrick> they get in the way of industry
18:04:56 <petern> cos it uses a finite state machine...
18:05:06 <petern> not a flying spaghetti monster, unfortunately
18:10:23 <[wito]> petern: that I get, but does it have to?
18:11:37 <[wito]> It might have been said before, but couldn't it be implemented as, say, a microcosm railroad, using signal logic and known-node paths instead of an FSM?
18:12:00 <De_Ghosty> should impilment fsm as a train manager :o
18:12:16 <De_Ghosty> his noodle appendages will make everything better
18:20:21 <[wito]> I believe the proper term is "noodly"
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19:55:53 <batti5> i just have a sugestion, in ottd thare should be a way to use 32bpp files like grfs, and also a possibilty to upload 32bpp packs from bananas, its a good idea or not?
19:57:17 <frosch123> that is already possible
19:57:55 <frosch123> you just need 8bit fallback graphics, as ottd does not know what to do if you join an other game that used those 32bpp grfs and you do not use a 32bpp blitter
19:58:50 <batti5> yes? i did not know, howe it works, can you load the in game? and bananas?
20:00:29 <frosch123> basically you use a normal grf, e.g. the romanian trainset, and attach 32bpp graphics to it, which are used instead of the 8bpp graphics of the grf, if a 32bpp blitter is present
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20:33:25 <TrueBrain> pam pam pam pam padadada da
20:50:35 <Rubidium> MS Proofing Tools says it's spelled incorrectly
20:52:07 <TrueBrain> you believe an MS tool?!
20:53:17 <Rubidium> what proof is to be believed?
21:03:48 <Xaroth> hm, are there any specified formats for custom builds (h2h, cargodest etc)
21:04:08 <Rubidium> format in what sense?
21:04:34 <Xaroth> #.#.# [rc] for official releases
21:05:04 <dihedral> they are not official openttd releases
21:05:06 <Rubidium> they usually take the hg revision number
21:05:12 <dihedral> they can basically do what they like!
21:05:33 <Xaroth> dihedral: was talking about the real releases like 0.7.0
21:05:42 <Xaroth> those all use the same format
21:06:00 <dihedral> you mentioned 'custom builds' (h2h, cargodest etc)
21:06:38 <Xaroth> cargodest only has one release on the binaries thing anyhow
21:21:40 <dihedral> with regards to the query from masterserver and the 'updater'
21:21:48 <dihedral> are there differences in the packets sent?
21:22:24 <Rubidium> in tcpdump speak sport differs
21:26:39 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16095 /trunk/src/ (rail_gui.cpp viewport.cpp viewport_type.h): -Change/Feature-ish: make the first 4 rail building tools behave more like autorail
21:28:08 <dihedral> Rubidium, i meant, anything different which could possibly make an ISP block the packet?
21:29:27 <Rubidium> that there is no udp packet within the last X seconds from the user to the server? i.e. an unasked UDP 'connection'
21:29:39 <Rubidium> that the source port of the packet is different
21:29:51 <dihedral> the user is with the same isp i am with
21:30:06 <dihedral> i shall try things from here to see if its related to the isp
21:33:53 <dihedral> Rubidium, can you check if advertising 88.66.137.70 is showing the same symptoms?
21:34:13 <dihedral> or are servers not advertised right away?
21:37:02 <Rubidium> there's no server with that ip
21:37:35 <Rubidium> so it didn't reply on the query of the masterserver
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21:43:08 <Quarks> hey rubidium, I assume you know who dih was talking about ;)
21:43:58 <Quarks> and thanks for the quick reply in the forum...
21:44:09 <Quarks> even though i still havent found the error
21:44:14 <dihedral> i think it's got to do with the isp
21:44:25 <Quarks> yeah thats what i am assuming
21:44:51 <Quarks> try connecting to quarks.game-host.org:27015
21:45:26 <Rubidium> try registering again; I restarted the updater so it takes another port
21:45:51 <Quarks> just restarted the server
21:46:15 <Quarks> it says advertising successful
21:46:51 <Quarks> which port does it use?
21:47:26 <Quarks> (not important at the moment because i disconnected my router, i was just interested)
21:47:38 <Xaroth> const int NETWORK_MASTER_SERVER_PORT = 3978
21:47:44 <Rubidium> the updater uses a random port
21:48:01 <dihedral> it connects _from_ a random port ;-)
21:48:04 <Rubidium> though the master server querying the client uses a random port too
21:48:23 <Xaroth> think the ISP's don't like that much randomness
21:49:38 <petern> maybe Xaroth needs to find out how udp/tcp/etc works
21:51:23 <Xaroth> petern: I know enough.
21:51:27 <Quarks> is there a way that an ISP can block certain requests? like the one that the master server sends to a game server?
21:52:04 <Rubidium> maybe not intentionally though
21:52:23 <Quarks> probably not... i wonder what the use of blocking OTTD would be
21:52:43 <Quarks> and its not that everything is blocked, its just the master server request
21:52:57 <Rubidium> e.g. my ipv4 never receives the advertise done packet even though it's sent; it just hangs somewhere in some piece of stupid hardware that tries to do NAT but fails
21:53:45 <petern> Xaroth, not enough if you think isps don't like "much randomness"
21:54:07 <Quarks> i recently installed ipv6 (on winxp) just to try out whether i could ping the OTTD page
21:54:25 <Xaroth> petern: google 'humor'.
21:54:38 <Quarks> and i think it was just after that, that i wasnt able to host any more
21:54:43 <Rubidium> Xaroth: google '/ignore'
21:55:08 <Quarks> so yeah dont know if that has anything to do with it
21:56:43 <Rubidium> could you actually ping OpenTTD on IPv6?
21:57:07 <Rubidium> hmm, registering on IPv6 requires a recent nightly
21:57:42 <Quarks> i was able to ping openttd.org with ipv6
21:58:11 <Quarks> but since im not too familiar with ipv6 and what it does (except the basics) i figured i didnt need it yet
21:58:28 <Quarks> and i read that winxp's ipv6 protocol is only experimental
21:59:21 * Rubidium wonders what MS means with experimental
22:00:15 <Quarks> probably that its ready to be used but that they cannot be held responsible for errors resulting from the use of ipv6
22:00:33 <petern> i always understood that to be a 'yeah we've done it but it probably doesn't work. don't sue us'
22:01:45 <Rubidium> isn't the "don't sue us" part of the SHOUT TEXT you always get splut in your face when installing it?
22:03:03 <Quarks> so rubidium, i dont wanna be annoying... but do you have any other idea what i could try to find out whats wrong?
22:03:30 <Rubidium> sadly enough I do not have any more ideas
22:04:14 <Quarks> for sharing your knowledge :)
22:24:47 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16096 /trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp: -Fix [FS#2849]: connect tried to validate too much of the company ID with too little information on hand
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continue to next day ⏵
