IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-04-18
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00:02:34 <Patrick> now I want to build a kinematic sculpture out of my trains
00:07:38 *** NightKha_ has joined #openttd
00:09:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx_
00:12:19 <[wito]> Patrick: as in "pile-up"?
00:12:32 <[wito]> almighty mother of all pileups?
00:12:46 <Sacro> Does anyone actually care about GPL violations in the development forum?
00:13:10 <Patrick> nope, massive explosions
00:13:37 <[wito]> so a 500-train crash, then?
00:14:18 <Patrick> Sacro: that palm guy at it again?
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00:14:59 <Sacro> Patrick: no, Bilbo, he's posted binaries and removed the LICENCE
00:15:12 <Patrick> is this a "nice but dim"
00:15:30 <Sacro> some people clean out all the readmes and such
00:15:33 <Patrick> as in, some guy shooting us his own nightly
00:15:36 <[wito]> (for the giant screenshot
00:15:45 <Patrick> oh, bugger, forgot to check
00:15:57 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx_
00:16:15 <Patrick> tell me when you've got it and I'll take it down
00:17:02 <[wito]> wget says ETA 5 minutes; but give me 15 to be on the safe side
00:18:36 <Forked> Sacro: hmm, crap. I take it the LICENSE and readme.txt etc do not automatically end up in the bin/ folder when you compile? It looks like I've done the same in at least one win32 compile (using mingw).
00:19:55 <Sacro> so technically you are breaking the law :p
00:20:02 <Forked> yeah I figured, I just wasn't aware
00:22:21 <[wito]> Actually, if memory serves, you are only required to provide the source code and license on demand; if the nature of the license is disclosed
00:23:02 <Sacro> [wito]: the licence isn't disclosed
00:23:21 <[wito]> not even a note in the interface or COPYING?
00:23:29 <Sacro> not sure about the interface
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00:23:45 <MapperOG_> can I join two stations afterwards?
00:24:31 <Patrick> well, the middle is boring
00:24:39 <Patrick> I would have doctored it if I'd had the tools
00:25:02 <[wito]> I don't think the tools to work with these images exist. :P
00:25:15 <Forked> Sacro: is the file "COPYING" (as well as readme.txt) enough?
00:25:50 <Sacro> Forked: yep, so long as you offer source for 3 years
00:26:44 <Forked> I've just been compiling other peoples diff against trunk. Would I get away with offering just the .diff inside that archive? :p
00:27:28 <MapperOG_> when I use drag an drop, what will decide the direction the station will face?
00:27:29 <[wito]> I might have to break out the old libpng and write a C application to slice Giant Screenshots. :P
00:27:40 <MapperOG_> the direction I first move in or the direction I end?
00:27:40 <[wito]> MapperOG_: the direction switcher
00:27:57 <Sacro> Forked: you could risk it and hope openttd is still hosting
00:28:09 <Sacro> though if they stop in 1 year and people still ask you for source you could still be liable
00:28:33 <Forked> law is complicated and at times annoying stuff (no offence intended anywhere..)
00:29:07 <[wito]> In other words; never offer binaries. ;)=
00:32:43 <[wito]> Patrick: I just realized something
00:33:08 <[wito]> 34kpx * 69kpx * 4B works out to 8 gigabytes of ram I don't have. :P
00:33:24 <[wito]> I'll have to figure out in the morning how to peruse the screenshot
00:33:38 *** KingJ is now known as kingj
00:33:53 <[wito]> I might end up with a neat little slicer application to make giant screenshots usable, who knows
00:34:31 <[wito]> also, my hat is of to zlib
00:34:51 <[wito]> compressing 8gb of image data to 32 megs, a job well done, I say
00:41:43 <MapperOG_> 3 big houses + stadion = more passangers than 8 small ones?
00:42:09 <Chrill> how about decreasing the amount of huge letters? :)
00:43:23 <Patrick> I've upgraded it to have 10 tracks in each direction
00:43:27 <Patrick> gonna really pile on the ore
00:44:04 <jonty-comp> I wish I had the patience to get that far in a game:p
00:45:52 <Patrick> well, I used to get bored quickly
00:46:01 <Patrick> but this is interesting emergent behaviour
00:53:08 <Forked> Sacro: by the way.. thank you for making me aware :-)
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06:56:32 <dihedral> jonty-comp> [02:44:04] I wish I had the patience to get that far in a game:p <- i dont even have the patience to stay in one :-P
07:02:41 <LA> not too fine.. knee is borked
07:04:04 <LA> Yeah, they have always said that sports is unhealthy :D
07:04:27 <LA> basically played football and one guy slided into my legs
07:04:44 <LA> but that was over a week ago already :P
07:05:26 <dihedral> what's the prospect of healing?
07:05:51 <dihedral> i.e. will you be able to do sports again?
07:06:05 <Rubidium> I'd say it depends on the sport
07:06:10 <LA> Well.. it'll take a few weeks.. I won't take part in any PE lessons this year anyway I guess
07:07:01 <LA> I wouldn't have to use the golf club, when I have those walking sticks :D
07:07:10 <LA> have no idea how they are called in English
07:07:28 <dihedral> i just know a bunch of people who had something like that happen, and their knee was borked happily ever after ^^
07:07:45 <goodger> my knees have mysteriously self-borked
07:08:31 <LA> dih, well I actually didn't break any bones.. Just some [insert the English word for "sidemed"] here
07:08:44 <goodger> actually, crutch means the same as crotch \o/
07:09:29 <Rubidium> Many competitive video games could be considered mind sports.
07:09:33 <goodger> you tore some ligaments.
07:09:36 <Rubidium> (according to wikipedia)
07:09:38 <goodger> that's... amazingly painful
07:09:59 <goodger> you'll be on the crutches for a good eight months, methinks
07:10:42 <dihedral> all they do is sit in front of that screen all day long :-P
07:10:51 <LA> goodger: Not exactly.. First they said that two weeks, but it'll be a bit more
07:10:53 <Rubidium> so playing OpenTTD on a goal server might be considered a mind sport
07:10:55 <goodger> estonian "sidemed": literally "links", "ties", "connections", "contacts"
07:11:17 <goodger> LA: ah, yours was less severe than my mother's, then...
07:11:36 <goodger> oh, wait, you might be talking about tendons :/
07:11:39 <LA> yeah, but it still hurts.. Especially if I try to sleep for example
07:11:53 <Rubidium> so... when are the olympics going to cover OpenTTD too?
07:11:55 <LA> well I don't know the English terminology for those things
07:12:17 <LA> Rubidium: When you set some goal to OpenTTD scenarios :D
07:12:19 <goodger> meh, let's say ligaments
07:12:24 <dihedral> Rubidium, ask openttdcoop if they consider it a sport :-P
07:13:26 <LA> Yep, just found out from Internet :D I hurt my right knee's lateral collateral ligament :P
07:13:43 <LA> because it's kind of "lateraalne kollateraalne side" in Estonian :D
07:15:31 <goodger> phonologically, that looks suspiciously like finnish
07:16:48 <dihedral> no wonder... his knee is... fin(n)ish(ed)
07:16:57 <LA> goodger, Estonian and Finnish are VERY closely related :P
07:17:18 <goodger> yes, this became obvious when I remembered where Estonia actually _is_
07:18:04 <goodger> I need to stop confusing Estonia and some country in the Yugoslavia that I hallucinated
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07:24:42 <LA> uhh.. the firefox syndrome - 20 tabs opened :o
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07:33:14 * el_en recommends watching "Watchmen"
07:39:34 <dihedral> "watch men" sounds gay ^^
07:44:26 <dihedral> i was wondering if anything was bound to happen with that bus
07:47:44 <petern> not started anything yet
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07:48:56 <dihedral> not started != not planed to start :-P
07:49:32 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: alberth * r16076 /trunk/src/terraform_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Added nested widgets to terraform windows.
08:07:21 <Rubidium> tralllannoyingllalalaal
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08:33:57 <DorpsGek> Alberth: brianetta was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 2 days, 11 hours, 38 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Brianetta> here is fine
08:33:57 <Rubidium> there's no patch bot here
08:34:28 <Pikka> but there is in the other place
08:36:27 <LA> the dark and scary #tycoon channel
08:37:21 <Pikka> "the other place" is how members of bicameral parliaments in the UK and Australia refer to the other chamber, innit.
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08:38:19 <LA> interesting tho, even if rubidiu m hasn't joined #tycoon atm, he knows exactly what's going on there..
08:38:36 <LA> three wuts there already this morning
08:39:19 <Rubidium> LA: more like 6 (if you count wutz as wut)
08:39:23 <Pikka> there's a lot of it about
08:39:34 <LA> Well, since when I joined, 3
08:42:11 <dihedral> is it "violate something in the treatment of the people..." or "violate something by the treatment of the people...."
08:43:07 <Rubidium> when in doubt, rewrite the sentence
08:43:30 <dihedral> "These are the articles of the Human Rights Convention that are violated by the treatment of detainees in the detention camp in Guantànamo."
08:43:31 <Rubidium> "the treatment of the people violated something"
08:43:38 <petern> in UpdateStationAcceptance()
08:43:56 <petern> there is code to determine the acceptance area
08:44:19 <petern> it then checks that it is exactly the same as the cached acceptance area
08:44:35 <petern> can this not be removed to just use the cached acceptance area?
08:46:55 <Rubidium> guess you can (though top/bottom are reversed)
08:52:30 <petern> yeah, seems to be for some reason :/
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09:07:11 <jacky59> hello, I recently installed openttd 7.0 and tried to download and install noai from the online contents menu
09:07:33 <jacky59> when I try to load a saved game with AI, openttd freeze
09:07:50 <jacky59> tried on both windows / linux: same :/ ??? I guess it's a known issue ?
09:08:47 <Rubidium> you've got a big map and you probably downloaded 'the wrong one'
09:09:02 <Rubidium> i.e. the one that doesn't play nice
09:09:58 <jacky59> what would be the limit on map size for AI to be capable to "restart" after a save ?
09:09:59 <Rubidium> and with "not nice" I mean it's doing all it's calculations when "starting" the AI instead while it's "running"
09:10:25 <jacky59> so basically, I need to wait ? it is not crashed ?
09:10:48 <Rubidium> yes, though that waiting can take *very* long
09:11:17 <Rubidium> and the major problem is that "we" cannot do much about it except flaming the AI writers to not do that
09:11:29 <jacky59> to test because that was the only AI with some "save function " if I am not wrong
09:11:32 <Rubidium> yup, nocab is known to be not nice
09:12:10 <jacky59> what do you think about having a kind of popup saying "looks like your map is really huge, and you want to play with AIs... that might not be a great idea"
09:12:24 <jacky59> when you start a new game..
09:13:56 <jacky59> the strange thing is that when I start the new game, everything is smooth... and when I load it, freeeeze... so when did the AI did its calculation from the start to the saved point ??
09:15:25 <Rubidium> the AI is trying to reconstruct something which seems to be failing horribly
09:15:38 <Alberth> jacky59: AI's should play 'nice', and not do a lengthy calculation when started. Unfortunately, not all AI authors follow that guide-line.
09:15:58 <jacky59> which AI is "nice" ? is it documented somewhere ?
09:17:28 <Alberth> jacky59: you might want to read the forum topic of an AI to see whether people have reported this problem, but otherwise, no.
09:17:34 <jacky59> that's it, I waited now it loaded the game...
09:18:06 <jacky59> forum : that's a nice idea however.. where is the ai forum :p if you click on the forum link on the openttd.org page, you don't see an AI forum :/
09:18:41 <Rubidium> it's a subforum of the "general openttd" forum
09:19:02 <jacky59> ahh I didn't saw it first
09:19:06 <jacky59> well... thx for help !
09:19:21 <jacky59> what AI would you recommend ?
09:19:55 <Alberth> jacky59: I never play with AIs, so no idea
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09:23:30 <Rubidium> Alberth plays hard CORE OpenTTD ;)
09:24:08 <dihedral> i only play single core ^^
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09:37:33 <jonty-comp> dihedral: multithread the AIs!
09:37:42 <jonty-comp> then you can play one AI on each core :P
09:37:57 <dihedral> i cannot play one ai on each core
09:38:06 <dihedral> i can play against an ai on each core though :-D
09:38:32 <jonty-comp> it'd be good if you could connect clients to a multiplayer game as AIs
09:38:42 <jonty-comp> then you could run an instance of openttd on each core :D
09:38:47 <dihedral> just need to patch your client
09:39:14 <dihedral> he then marked two spots on the map and let the ai's pathfinder connect them with tracks :-D
09:39:38 <Alberth> can you not run AIs at the server?
09:39:47 * jonty-comp is waiting for a report to generate
09:40:04 <dihedral> i am now on page 7.... of 15
09:40:05 <Alberth> and connect yourself as client
09:40:16 <jonty-comp> Alberth: yes, but if you have the AI at a client then it can run on a single core
09:40:27 <jonty-comp> then you can have 4 AIs running on 4 different cores!
09:40:35 <dihedral> + you then use your own 'ai' to assist you
09:40:50 * jonty-comp builds looping tracks and bridges everywhere
09:40:59 <dihedral> i.e. - i want to upgrade all my tracks + trains to maglev :-P
09:42:06 <dihedral> hehe - would be a way to do copy & paste :-D
09:42:21 <dihedral> watch what i am building, and build it somewhere else :-D
09:43:28 <Alberth> copy & paste also allowed moving afaik (ie copy & delete, followed by pasting one tile shifted)
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09:45:21 <Alberth> it would be interesting if it can move the mouse-cursor around, and interact with the windows. Then you can make an interactive tutorial.
09:46:03 <LA> but how were the tutorials at original ttd done
09:46:11 <LA> I don't even remember those :D
09:47:25 <Alberth> I think more or less the same. At RCT, I remember I could start a tutorial and take over any time. Also, I could move the mouse-cursor by moving the mouse while the tutorial played.
09:47:55 * LA thinks he still has rrt II on cd
09:49:18 *** kingj is now known as KingJ
09:55:07 <petern> what does !!! mean in admiralai speak?
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10:14:44 <Patrick> I remember doing a ttd tutorial once and a random event toastered at the bottom of the screen
10:14:50 <Patrick> distracted the mouse, threw it off-kilter
10:14:57 <Patrick> and the rest of the tutorial was broken
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10:29:54 <frosch123> never got around to commit it :p
10:30:52 <frosch123> last time the assertion was triggered was the broken title game of 1.4
10:36:25 <frosch123> oh noes, I missed a "0." :/
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11:08:22 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r16077 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Cleanup (r14456): Remove some code that is only used for some assertions, that haven't been triggered for a while.
11:13:36 <Yexo> petern: it tried to build a drivethrough roadstop there, but it failed
11:15:11 <Yexo> it was a bug that that sign was build
11:15:31 <Yexo> it should only be build with the proper setting turned on, but I forgot to check that setting in a few places
11:19:30 <petern> (how can i tell what version is running)
11:19:53 <Yexo> and it's fixed, but not in any public version
11:20:08 <Yexo> hmm, dunno if you can tell when running a dedicated server
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11:47:48 <petern> Your script made an error: parameter 2 has an invalid type 'null' ; expected: 'integer'
11:48:02 <petern> *FUNCTION [DeleteDeadEnd()] /home/openttd/.openttd/content_download/ai/AdmiralAI.20.tar/admiralai.20/road/routebuilder.nut line [212]
11:48:15 <petern> (i guess i'm using v20 ;))
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11:56:21 <petern> is it possible to restart it, keeping the same company?
12:19:00 <petern> the old landscape generator doesn't leave a 1 tile gap of water around the edge :s
12:19:12 <petern> on the top edges anyway
12:24:08 <Rubidium> then disable the freeform edges ;)
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12:59:14 <Patrick> when was the cap on station waiting cargo removed?
12:59:22 <Patrick> I have 26k waiting :(
13:01:13 <frosch123> though I doubt it was removed, just raised :p
13:05:23 <Patrick> wow, I got my rating down to 0
13:05:54 <Rubidium> IIRC it's something like 32768, but after 4096 cargo runs away faster than normal
13:07:59 <[wito]> I've connected half the map, it's 1971 and I have 100 trains. :P
13:07:59 <Patrick> I have 300 trains waiting for me to redesign this station
13:08:21 <Patrick> and I industried myself into a corner, ore mines are blocking where I want trains to go
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13:22:04 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16078 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Change: do not show stop location for via orders; they don't stop there
13:25:11 <[wito]> 150 trains, stuff getting sluggy all up in here. :P
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13:43:18 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16079 /trunk/src/ (train_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp):
13:43:18 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2824]: insanely fast trains would not stop in time for stations
13:43:18 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Fix: insanely fast trains would sometimes 'jump' over waypoints/via stations within a tick, which would cause the order not to be processed causing the train to go in loops until (with luck) it 'hit' the tile
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14:12:41 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: alberth * r16080 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Introducing a constant for order-list line height.
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15:03:14 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: alberth * r16081 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Doc: Adding/fixing some Doxygen comments.
15:14:47 <EirikhO> How do I hide bought land marks in OTTD 0.7.0
15:17:00 <Aali> you get a newgrf to replace the graphics
15:17:43 <jonty-comp> hmm, I thought that was in the transparency options
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15:29:01 <petern> that's a nasty error when trying to join an AI company
15:29:14 <petern> is it possible to bump the player to spectator instead?
15:32:01 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: alberth * r16082 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Completed the widget numbers of the advanced settings window.
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15:44:28 <Yexo> petern: when NoAI was still a seperate branch, it was impossible to join an AI company (the button was greyed out)
15:44:35 <Yexo> somewhere after merging that went wrong
15:45:12 <glx> IIRC it's impossible through the GUI
15:45:35 <Yexo> glx: that's the problem, it isn't anymore
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15:52:13 <Patrick> my new goal is to have a 1,000 train station
15:52:17 <Patrick> 10 tracks, 60 platforms
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15:55:55 <Yexo> that depends on the trainlength and the length the trains have to travel
16:19:03 <Patrick> man, you're right, my 500 train, 30 platform, 4 track station prototype left me completely unprepared for the challenge
16:19:44 <Patrick> going both ways on a 2048 map
16:19:58 <Patrick> it could probably hold more than that
16:22:24 <Patrick> the limiting factor is building enough primary industries inside the maximum station spread + catchment area
16:22:32 <Patrick> so I'll have to cheat them up a bit
16:24:33 <[wito]> 512*512; pax/mail only, 1k trains, possible? ;)=
16:25:23 <frosch123> I can easily have 1k trains in a 1x1 depot
16:25:38 <Patrick> not easily, think of the clicks
16:25:46 <Patrick> [wito]: actually, half the map would be train
16:26:04 <Patrick> my mainline is 20 wide and 2000 long and it's mostly full
16:26:55 <[wito]> think 4-length trains and stations
16:27:14 <[wito]> they could all fit back-to-back on a 4*2000 mainline
16:27:29 <Patrick> I'm using 4-tile trains
16:28:08 <fjb> I love gcc. What is the meaning of: two or more data types in declaration specifiers
16:28:12 <Patrick> the absolute max station spread is 64
16:28:22 <Patrick> and that limits me to 60-ish tracks or 10 by 10
16:28:43 <[wito]> it limits you to 64 tracks, 64 tiles long
16:28:50 <Aali> I know a certain savegame with 2500 trains on 512x512
16:29:10 <Patrick> my entry/exit multiplexers are that long
16:29:29 <[wito]> you might need more than one station
16:29:45 <[wito]> try a coal station and a iron station shipping to a steel mill with PBIO
16:29:58 <Patrick> well, that's what I just had
16:30:06 <Patrick> ore->steel->goods->town
16:30:21 <Patrick> splitting the 10-track mainline into OOOOSSSGGG
16:30:26 <[wito]> Pikka's Basic Industries. ;)
16:30:28 <Patrick> I don't want to play with multiples any more
16:30:39 <Patrick> this is all about taking stations and load balancers to the limit
16:31:12 <Patrick> now I plan to just have CCCCCCCCCC on each side
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17:07:12 <Patrick> I could have one "row" of stations in front of another
17:07:27 <Patrick> with one gap every 5 or 6 platforms to let the other ones through
17:07:55 <Patrick> or a gap of 2 and have 3 sets of 6
17:08:05 <Patrick> each feeding off a mainline
17:08:22 <Patrick> crap, I've obsoleted my design before I started
17:09:48 <[wito]> you could also have a 121 121 mainline
17:10:14 <[wito]> with four platforms after one another; each feeding from the outer tracks onto the inner
17:11:01 <Patrick> then I'd need a separate load balancer
17:11:07 <Patrick> I was doing it at the exits
17:12:02 <[wito]> well, that'd be a 1221 1221 line, of course
17:12:07 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16083 /extra/ottd_grf/split/openttdgui.nfo: [OTTD_GRF] -Change: remove unneeded offset from shared orders sprite
17:12:30 <[wito]> really doesn't matter, but I'm thinking 1221 1221 could look really cool. :P
17:14:37 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16084 /trunk/bin/data/ (5 files): -Change: remove (soon to be) unneeded offset from the shared order sprite.
17:21:44 <Patrick> I've got 90 platforms into this space
17:22:05 <Patrick> even with both sides of the station coated in steroid-pumped 2048 industrries it wouldn't be enough
17:22:13 <Patrick> and that's with a spread limit of 44
17:22:44 <[wito]> I don't think a single engine can pull that train, if you pardon the pun
17:23:55 <Patrick> each platform is only 4 trains long
17:24:28 <Patrick> 6 platforms and 2 passthroughs
17:24:38 <Patrick> this is going to be epic
17:25:05 <Patrick> assuming that 6 platforms can cope with a constant stream, I know they can for the unload
17:25:19 <Patrick> oh crap, I'll have to build another one at the other end
17:25:30 <Patrick> roll on copy/paste - is there a patch for that?
17:26:06 <Yexo> yes, just look in the forums
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17:47:46 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r16085 /trunk/src/lang/ (danish.txt estonian.txt simplified_chinese.txt turkish.txt):
17:47:46 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-04-18 17:47:27
17:47:46 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: danish - 6 changed by ThomasA (6)
17:47:46 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: estonian - 31 fixed, 26 changed by kristjans (57)
17:47:47 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 1 fixed, 25 changed by ww9980 (26)
17:47:47 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: turkish - 10 fixed by Emin (10)
17:48:11 <EirikhO> How do I help translate?
17:50:03 <Yexo> send a mail to translator@openttd.org, mention the language you want to help translating
17:50:31 <Yexo> then wait until and account is made, and start translating at translator2.openttd.org
17:52:37 <Alberth> In the mean time you can update the wiki :p
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18:59:39 <MapperOG> is there a "strategy guide" somewhere, that talks about aspects like "a train shouldn't always stop on all stations but try to get long distances to gain profit..
19:04:00 <Yexo> the highscores are stored in there
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21:09:09 <fjb> Where is Eddi when you need him?
21:10:48 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16086 /trunk/src/ (tile_type.h tilehighlight_type.h viewport.cpp): -Codechange: magic numbers substitutes by enums and some type safety
21:15:59 <fjb> Hm, would be wake on wan in this case, I guess. And is Eddi himself connected to the net?
21:18:58 <el_en> Eddi has been offline so long that he must be planning something.
21:19:06 <el_en> something evil. such as graduating.
21:20:00 <fjb> That would be really evil...
21:20:49 <el_en> that's the excuse Darkvater and Bjarni have used for huge offline times.
21:21:27 <Nite_Owl> not as evil as alligator rape
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22:51:50 <Nite_Owl> Time to feed - later all
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23:33:00 <Patrick> ok, it's going to cost me 100 million to populate my new network with trains
23:33:06 <Patrick> I think I got it a bit wrong somewhere
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continue to next day ⏵
