IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-02-12
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00:38:28 <fjb> Is there a recent cargodest patch without infrastructure sharing?
00:41:01 <Aali> fjb: did you check the cargodest thread?
00:41:48 <fjb> I did two days ago. I will have a look now.
00:42:36 <fjb> Ah, there is from yesterday.
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07:29:59 <petern> started my pc up and it's in windows 7 :o
07:33:27 <petern> just like windows really
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08:05:58 * dihedral pats petern on the head
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09:04:44 <Forked> Goooood morning openttd community
09:04:54 <dihedral> good morning Forked :-P
09:05:12 <Forked> now that it's a good morning, but at least it's morning :\
09:05:45 <Forked> not that it's a good day for spelling things either :7
09:12:30 <planetmaker> quite accurate, if you ask me :P
09:12:31 <dihedral> perhaps i should add: 'i am just a flourist, selling flowers others cut down for me, and telling people how best to take care of their purchased flowers'
09:12:31 * Forked takes a dump in mentioned garden
09:12:35 <Forked> ..to make stuff grow better!
09:13:53 <dihedral> Forked, did you parents help you grow that way too? :-P
09:14:29 <Forked> fed me mcdonalds food :\
09:14:32 <Forked> so pretty much, yep :p
09:15:01 <Forked> joke though, I have excellent parents :)
09:43:06 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: just register as translator :)
09:43:38 <planetmaker> I think it doesn't hurt. And if there are more people who occasionally fix a small thing, chances are much higher that the language will be up to date :)
09:44:13 <planetmaker> And logging into the translator screen, fixing a single string or two - no big deal and not much one has to learn actually.
09:47:00 <planetmaker> Doesn't take more time than posting it in the forums actually. So... come on :)
09:50:29 <dihedral> "if you have two apples, and someone gives you another one, how many apples do you have?" <- does not work with "carrot"
09:51:28 <planetmaker> well... just don't start another flame war...
09:51:50 <TrueBrain> that sounds like a good plan indeed ;)
09:52:58 <dihedral> planetmaker, i was thinking about replying, but i will not
09:53:06 <dihedral> i'll let others do that if they feel like it :-P
09:53:18 <TrueBrain> not replying at all seems a better method
09:53:24 <dihedral> i've had my fun already
09:53:37 <planetmaker> yep, more often than not, TrueBrain :)
09:53:43 <dihedral> i am quite chuffed of my post anyway :-D
09:53:58 <TrueBrain> I have to admit, yours was funny dihedral :p
09:54:03 <TrueBrain> but clearly he doesn't get it ..
09:54:12 <planetmaker> nope, he doesn't :P
09:54:22 <planetmaker> but that's his problem then.
09:54:32 <TrueBrain> some people, which did not yet reach the right age, don't know when to just stop talking ;)
09:54:38 <planetmaker> Most people will get it - and that's what's more important: the audience :)
09:55:21 <TrueBrain> whoho, WrightAI is downloaded 1000+ times on BaNaNaS! :)
09:55:41 <dihedral> i also love the "are you comparing apples with carrot?"
09:55:46 <petern> opengfx got downloaded about 30 times by me testing it :p
09:55:49 <dihedral> sure - i compare a bunch of apples with a single carrot :-D
09:55:59 * TrueBrain substracts 30 from the download number ... :p
09:56:55 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: last time I looked it hadn't reached 1000 yet
09:57:10 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: and now it did .. sigh ..
09:57:19 <TrueBrain> what kind of comment is that? :p
09:57:27 <planetmaker> :) It clutters the map with airports... :P
09:57:31 <Rubidium> only +13 since the last time I looked, which was like a few days ago
09:57:43 <TrueBrain> so? 1000+ is a nice number, me thinks
09:57:46 <TrueBrain> now stop spoiling the moment
09:58:20 <planetmaker> I'm always amazed how often still 0.6.3 is downloaded on a daily basis...
09:58:41 <TrueBrain> people LOVE OpenTTD :)
09:58:55 <planetmaker> yep. which is good so :)
09:59:18 <planetmaker> well... I guess we wouldn't be talking here, if we didn't :P
10:00:09 <Rubidium> don't forget to add the ~250 downloads a day from SF ;)
10:00:29 <TrueBrain> (just a random comment)
10:01:01 <planetmaker> he. openttd on SF isn't on my radar screen :P
10:02:00 <petern> oh, we still put releases on sf?
10:02:52 <dihedral> petern, last time was about a year ago.... which still was 0.6.3 :-D
10:02:54 <Rubidium> petern: yeah, got a nice script that does most of the work
10:03:31 <Rubidium> and then you have to manually add them all and I can't get bothered to set the OS/architecture/file type
10:03:34 <planetmaker> let computers do the work, if you can. Always a good plan
10:07:00 <Rubidium> and the number of downloads from SF dropped by a factor 8-10
10:09:40 <TrueBrain> and our outgoing bandwidth increased :p
10:09:52 <petern> i can mirror, you know :p
10:10:08 <TrueBrain> we can still grow 4 times our current size ;)
10:10:36 <petern> bandwidth costs me nothing, however
10:10:58 <TrueBrain> petern: but: 100 GiB space, rsync access, http/ftp read access, and I need the country it is located ;)
10:11:27 <dihedral> we dont have the disc space, but we have the bandwidth
10:11:54 <TrueBrain> oh, and if you want to mirror the private stuff, a seperate rsync access with no http/ftp read ;) (private stuff as in: svn backup)
10:13:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15455 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix: font autodetection didn't occur when directly loading a game via e.g. -g.
10:13:58 <petern> /dev/md/3 427G 25G 381G 5.9 [ ] /home
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10:25:13 <dihedral> TrueBrain, the questions would more be if you trusted us that much
10:25:25 <TrueBrain> dihedral: svn is public anyway
10:25:40 <dihedral> i thought some parts were not
10:26:11 <TrueBrain> svn is completely public
10:26:15 <TrueBrain> just no write access
10:26:45 <dihedral> we can definately mirror that if you want
10:27:00 <dihedral> you could even use svnsync for that!
10:27:35 <TrueBrain> and we have no interest in a private sync only ..
10:27:45 <petern> so yeah, my server is in the UK...
10:28:02 <dihedral> TrueBrain, what do you mean with a 'private' sync only?
10:28:23 <TrueBrain> dihedral: that I personally am more interested in binaries mirroring
10:28:43 <petern> hmm, vservers don't have virtual drives, do they?
10:28:50 <petern> so i could set up a vserver...
10:28:59 <TrueBrain> but using LVM is easier
10:29:19 <dihedral> depending on the virtualisation software, you can setup either
10:29:21 <petern> what i saw was more like a chroot filesystem
10:29:29 <petern> dihedral: vserver is a specific virtualisation software
10:29:38 <TrueBrain> very specific even ;)
10:29:59 <TrueBrain> petern: well, 'virtual' might be a bit much to call it, but you can enable hard quota on a drive which vserver obeys
10:30:05 <TrueBrain> but I only use LVM :)
10:30:19 <petern> what i mean is i don't need to allocate 100GB and then find only a small bit of it is used :p
10:30:36 <TrueBrain> just reduced the binaries from 21 GiB to 13 GiB .. lol :)
10:30:39 <petern> the filesystem would have to sit on my /home
10:30:46 <TrueBrain> petern: so quota ;)
10:34:06 <TrueBrain> every night it grows with 150 MiB, if there are no branches and such ..
10:34:31 <dihedral> stables onlyl and nightlies for the past week
10:37:07 <dihedral> TrueBrain, but who sais it would have to be kept on the mirror?
10:37:33 <dihedral> besides - how often does someone come along and download some 2 month old nightly
10:37:54 <TrueBrain> leave the policy decisions to us ;)
10:37:59 <Rubidium> dihedral: how often does someone come along and download a more than 1 week old nightly?
10:38:22 <dihedral> it would defeat the purpose
10:38:36 <Rubidium> hmm... let me guess... OpenTTDcoop starts a new map every few days, right?
10:38:59 <dihedral> dont know how often they have a new game
10:39:24 <petern> hmm, okay, a vserver guide that mentions woody... not good :p
10:39:25 <dihedral> that was never a part i really payed attention to :-P
10:39:40 <dihedral> petern, better than potato :-P
10:40:02 <TrueBrain> dihedral: so can I suggest not to make any suggestions how long we should keep things around? :)
10:40:46 * petern ponders a name for the vserver
10:41:57 <petern> --hostname --domain :o
10:42:08 <TrueBrain> weird domain name :p
10:42:27 <petern> does it matter what OS? if not i'll have etch on it
10:42:27 <dihedral> TrueBrain, please post suggestions to the suggestion forum :-D
10:42:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15456 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Fix(ish): add strgen support to add 'directional formatting codes', so one can guide the bidirectional rendering a bit better.
10:42:49 <TrueBrain> petern: all I require is rsync access, and ftp/http read access :)
10:43:14 <TrueBrain> mirrors in generally carry both, yes :)
10:43:14 <petern> okay, it needs vserver for ftp ;p
10:43:57 <petern> although it's handy to keep it separate anyway
10:44:42 <petern> heh, debian and ubuntu mirror
10:44:53 <TrueBrain> the http just looks much more pretty!!! :)
10:47:40 <TrueBrain> petern: also a fedora mirror :p
10:50:56 <TrueBrain> damn, google is slow again ..
10:52:42 <petern> do you need rsync over ssh or plain rsync?
10:53:30 <TrueBrain> let me find you the public key for it ..
10:57:41 <TrueBrain> I hate it when websites don't load, because a banner fails to load ...
11:02:30 <TrueBrain> and google is failing on my more and more ... connection timeout, connection failure
11:12:20 <petern> so many screens open ;(
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11:16:43 <TrueBrain> lol, that is a nice cleanup ;)
11:20:20 <fjb> Or get more virtual desktops. :-)
11:31:48 <planetmaker> [11:38] <Rubidium> hmm... let me guess... OpenTTDcoop starts a new map every few days, right? <-- well, on average I'd say once a week we start a new game
11:32:10 <planetmaker> so far we didn't have a problem with obtaining the nightly the server runs - at least not I know of :)
11:32:21 <planetmaker> But one week span might just be a tad too short
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11:33:13 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: it is 60 days ;)
11:33:22 <planetmaker> that's certainly sufficient.
11:33:34 <planetmaker> If we don't finish a game in 60 days something is seriously flawed :P
11:33:35 <TrueBrain> (minimal value, mostly it is a bit longer)
11:33:54 <dihedral> so now you allow mirrors to only keep nightlies for 60 days?
11:34:19 <planetmaker> dihedral: mirror means to be a mirror - not a dump ;)
11:34:34 <dihedral> planetmaker, TrueBrain has his own vision ;-)
11:34:46 <TrueBrain> no, planetmaker says it correct
11:34:47 <petern> the mirrors go back to 2004 ;p
11:35:06 <dihedral> planetmaker, also, when you stand a dump in front of the mirror ......
11:35:23 <planetmaker> that's another issue. But the case when I do :P
11:35:46 <planetmaker> having a shower before solves the issue ;)
11:35:56 <planetmaker> mirror becomes opaque :P
11:36:46 <planetmaker> or whatever. dued.
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12:26:13 <Swallow> Is there a way to change / fix base costs in a running game?
12:27:52 <Ammler> Swallow: over scenario edtior
12:28:11 <planetmaker> which is not exactly "running game"...
12:28:34 <Ammler> base costs are ugly anyway ;-)
12:29:41 <Swallow> I'm trying to get 2cc set to work in an old ttd scenario, but all my trains cost 500/year now :S
12:30:29 <planetmaker> Swallow: museum trains just stand around and don't cost. they rust. ;)
12:31:50 <Swallow> I'll go with cheap trains, the game isn't about money anyways
12:32:44 <Ammler> Swallow: load the game in the scenario editor
12:33:00 <Ammler> and change difficult settings
12:33:16 <Ammler> (not sure, if that is still needed)
12:34:15 <planetmaker> Swallow: did you set any parameters?
12:34:19 <Ammler> iirc, with save difficult settings, it changed the base costs, maybe that is possible in the game itself, too?
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12:34:54 <planetmaker> hm... which gives me the idea to make a (non network safe) entry in the advanced settings called "base costs" :)
12:35:21 <planetmaker> but first things first :P
12:37:22 <Ammler> (or what was the first?)
12:37:44 <dihedral> fonts things first :-P
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12:40:35 <Ammler> imo, best would be, let newgrfs change basecosts only for itself and change "general" basecosts over advanced settings.
12:41:06 <planetmaker> which is a big change. And needs serious coding
12:41:38 <planetmaker> and needs guarding by yet another setting which enables this feature.
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12:58:52 <fjb> All the base cost changing grfs would be almost useless then.
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13:00:23 <Ammler> I guess, pikka wouldn't worry about.
13:01:26 <fjb> But what would it really change?
13:01:56 <Rubidium> the difficulty in the first year
13:01:56 <planetmaker> basecost conflicts between deifferent vehicle sets
13:02:08 <planetmaker> :D And possibly that
13:04:37 <fjb> But even with the same base cost are the sets not ballanced.
13:04:49 <Ammler> it would make the base costs "transparenter", you don't have to look on every newgrf, which basecost it changes...
13:05:03 <petern> are you guys *still* going on about the stupid base costs? :o
13:05:06 <planetmaker> fjb: fair enough, yes
13:05:07 <fjb> It would be better to allow 16bit costs.
13:05:39 <petern> 16 or 32 bit. quite so.
13:05:42 <Ammler> petern: we all go to remove them :-)
13:06:03 <petern> shame that callback results are 8 or 15 bit only :(
13:06:04 <planetmaker> fjb: probably true
13:06:38 <fjb> Isn't that in the new gtf proposal the frosch postet?
13:06:50 <planetmaker> petern: speaking in ignorance of the specs probably: newgrf version 9 :P
13:07:01 <Ammler> fjp, you would still have the problem with the old grfs
13:07:29 <fjb> Most vehicle grfs are under active development.
13:07:55 <fjb> At least the useful ones.
13:08:53 <fjb> And 16 or 32 bit costs would allow a better cost range inside the set as well.
13:09:17 <petern> fjb, no it's not in frosch's proposal
13:10:55 <Ammler> what against just "jail" newgrf basecost to the properities of that grf.
13:11:34 <fjb> Each grf would need a private copy of all base costs.
13:12:35 <Ammler> is there a grf, except the 2 from pikka, which really want to change the BASE?
13:13:32 <Ammler> most grfs missuse that already anyway.
13:13:33 <fjb> And then add on sets would probably fail because they expect the base set to change the base cost.
13:14:26 <fjb> Making the base costs private would not stop grf authors from misusing the base cost.
13:14:46 <Ammler> but it would not influence other newgrfs.
13:15:04 <planetmaker> but it wouldn't be clean.
13:15:15 <petern> ^ how to support loading of 32 bit callbacks
13:16:50 <Ammler> hmm, maybe the dbset changes some basecosts, like tracks and signal costs.
13:16:56 <petern> dbset changes all base costs
13:17:39 <Ammler> petern: I mean, basecosts, which doesn't have to do with the set iself, like running costs and such.
13:17:50 <petern> dbset changes all base costs
13:17:53 <fjb> dbset is really outdated by now. But we will soon ( :-) ) see a new version.
13:18:37 <Ammler> all others just change the base to have better cost bandwith for their set itself.
13:18:50 <planetmaker> but I think the attrocities concerning meddling with all costs won't get better there
13:19:28 <fjb> No, some other sets change really unobvious base costs. Was that nars 1?
13:19:53 <Ammler> which is bad anyway, imo.
13:19:55 <planetmaker> well. That's superseeded by nars2.
13:20:37 <fjb> Yes, but it was an example that not only dbset misuses base costs that are not obvious.
13:21:27 <Ammler> and is there a serious reason to allow that?
13:21:39 <planetmaker> backward compatibility
13:21:47 <fjb> And more than 8 bits for the costs would be a great relief for all grf authors. German road vehicles set hat the same problems.
13:22:12 <Ammler> planetmaker: you mean loading old saves?
13:22:23 <fjb> You never know what grfs would break in strange ways.
13:22:34 <planetmaker> That. And that the current behaviour is what grfs were designed for.
13:23:05 <Ammler> how can disabling basecosts for grfs break a game?
13:24:06 <fjb> I guess a lot more current grfs would break.
13:24:40 <planetmaker> Ammler: _I_ don't know the details enough to judge. But it probably is very easy to find those cases, if one knows the code
13:25:08 <fjb> 16 or 32 bit costs are the way to go, hopefully compatible in both TTD projects.
13:25:14 <Ammler> fjb: that is why you should keep it for the grf itself.
13:25:42 <planetmaker> Ammler: with 16 or 32 bit costs grf don't need to access basecosts anymore.
13:26:24 <planetmaker> so newer newgrfs may behave nicely then
13:26:25 <fjb> Ammler: But then a private copy of every base cost is needed. That could break grfs that change base cost with a reason.
13:27:08 <Ammler> fjb: yeah, a example would be nice ;-)
13:28:03 <petern> that would break grfs that change base costs for a reason
13:28:26 <petern> which base cost would you apply to clearing a tile?
13:28:35 <planetmaker> like modified building costs :)
13:28:43 <fjb> It is not my duty to bring examples for grfs that would break. It is yours to assure that no grf would break by the changes that you are proposing.
13:29:02 * petern ponders a non-adjustable 50th base cost that just tracks inflation
13:29:08 <Ammler> why change that with newgrs and not with difficult settings?
13:29:39 <planetmaker> backward compatibility :)
13:30:08 <planetmaker> did I say that already? :P
13:30:24 <petern> that sort of change is what it is there *for*
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13:31:08 <fjb> Base costs remind me of the A20 gate. :-(
13:32:53 <fjb> A feature was misused and now we have still crippled hardware only to be compatible.
13:34:32 <fjb> But modern OS' don't missuse it anymore but use a clean way (32 or 64 bit wide addresses). And we should implemend a way that new grfs don't have to misuse a feature anymore.
13:35:13 <petern> the A20 gate is still there, however :)
13:35:37 <fjb> Even DOS ist still there. So old grfs will be.
13:35:41 <petern> probably emulated though :)
13:36:17 <fjb> DOS relies on the A20 Gate, old grfs rely on the current base cost behaviour.
13:38:20 <fjb> Are 16 or 31 bit costs addable to TTDP? Probably.
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13:46:44 <Ammler> fjb: you can't compare base costs with that, if you would disable basecosts for GRFs, it would only change some prices, also backwards compatibilty is safe (as you could set the base costs with the difficult settings advanced window :-P
13:48:09 <planetmaker> it's spring here.
13:49:41 <Ammler> we got around 1m new today
13:51:15 <dihedral> Ammler, snow soup :-D
13:51:19 <NukeBuster> oh, I wish we had a decent amount of snow here.
13:54:32 <dihedral> petern, now that was very mature!
13:54:43 <thingwath> I wish the snow here would not melt and freeze at the same time.
13:54:48 <dihedral> besides, you missed the [] :-P
13:55:06 <dihedral> thingwath, how is that even possible?
13:55:28 <thingwath> quite easily at a temperature around 0 celsius
14:13:07 <Ammler> that is another buster
14:20:02 <dihedral> that's the only buster i know :-P
14:24:18 <planetmaker> there may be some block busters... :P
14:34:00 <dihedral> nicely rescued planetmaker
14:35:36 <dihedral> you should nick yourself 'planetsaver', but then, if that were your nick, i'd blame you for not saving alderan
14:37:32 <planetmaker> no no. I still want to win the price for the Norwegian fjords
14:38:18 <Roest> someone else got that one already
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15:17:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15457 /trunk/src/ (51 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: typo in stringid.
15:18:30 <dihedral> Alain is funny - i cannot even code, can he?
15:23:47 <Rubidium> dihedral: you not being able to code doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't able to code
15:25:53 <dihedral> shame the 'can he?' did not point out what i actually meant :-P
15:26:45 <Rubidium> there's a difference between knowing what you meant and replying on what you actually say
15:32:39 <Rubidium> I reckon that he can't code though
15:36:09 <Roest> i somehow doubt he is going to succeed
15:36:23 <Rubidium> what patch pack has succeeded?
15:37:05 <Roest> none but they were fun to play with for a while
15:37:39 <Rubidium> the problem with them is they release one, maybe two and then they're dead again
15:37:48 <Rubidium> and people keep whining for updates for eons
15:38:11 <Rubidium> and reporting bugs in the patch packs
15:38:31 <Rubidium> the only one that did not die quickly was MiniIN
15:38:45 <Rubidium> but that's like three? years ago already
15:40:18 <Roest> hey mine went on for 3 months ^^
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15:42:11 <Roest> nice planetmaker pointed him to this channel so he can ask dihedral for help
15:42:30 <planetmaker> [16:18] <dihedral> Alain is funny - i cannot even code, can he? <-- dih. Before I started off with wwottdgd/2, I didn't programme anything in C/C++ for probably 10 years.
15:43:04 <planetmaker> And three months later or so wwottdgd/2 was held. So, yes, he has a chance, if he's willing to learn. He seems to
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15:47:19 <Rubidium> Roest: looking at the patch pack thread your patch lived from mid april to early may (less than a month) based on the date of the first non-editted comment and the last edited time of the last binary post
15:48:08 <Roest> hmm did i make 9 version within two weeks?
15:48:40 <Rubidium> given the comments at least 8 in the two weeks
15:49:07 <Rubidium> that's based on the first reference to the v2 one
15:49:36 <Roest> think the main problem was including paxdest and other patches that weren't maintained by their authors anymore
15:49:56 <planetmaker> these things are always a problem for patch packs.
15:50:00 <Roest> if you just take up to date patches such a pack can survive a while
15:50:32 <Mark_> i think i found a bug: if a train has only invalid orders in its order list its speed isn't shown anymore in the status bar
15:50:39 <Mark_> tested with newest nightly and no newgrfs
15:50:41 <planetmaker> My clientpatches still work - but they may not always contain every patch which was there previously. And clientpatches are easy as I don't have to worry about savegames :)
15:51:34 <Rubidium> MiniIN (last reincarnation) was 26/5 - 27/2 (9 months)
15:51:36 <planetmaker> So, I guess it doesn't count as "patch pack" :P
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15:51:48 <planetmaker> (mine, not miniIN)
15:52:39 <TrueBrain> I read a question about MiniIN on the forums today :s
15:52:42 <TrueBrain> makes your head spin .....
15:53:07 <planetmaker> there're people in the German one who actively promote that to far more than it's worth.
15:53:56 <Ammler> he is still playing r8???-MiniIN
15:54:17 <Rubidium> Ammler: are you sure, I though he played 6???-MiniIN
15:55:01 <planetmaker> Ammler: seems. At least partially
15:55:12 <planetmaker> or whatever version of miniIN
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15:57:15 <Ammler> oh, seems like he removed the old complete packages
15:58:51 <petern> openttd_2.zip contains everything
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16:11:47 <dihedral> <planetmaker> And three months later or so wwottdgd/2 was held. So, yes, he has a chance, if he's willing to learn. He seems to <- Alain has been a guest on my server for some time now, i recall him not really being anywhere near any type of 'coder'
16:12:24 <planetmaker> it shall be seen :)
16:18:40 <fjb> Btw, what happened to the community patch pack?
16:19:39 <Roest> i can only guess but i'd say it suffered from patch authors not submitting anymore?
16:21:25 <fjb> Did they ever release anything beside announcements?
16:26:35 <Ammler> wwottdgd also needs a map creator
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16:28:58 <fjb> I need a way to bribe the ai to make its bridges wider.
16:34:42 <TrueBrain> wider .... I wonder how that would work
16:35:04 <kd5pbo> When is the next wwottdgd"
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16:38:31 <planetmaker> kd5pbo: when there's someone willing to start preparing for it :)
16:39:01 <planetmaker> willing to invest a bit time in preparing a decent patchpack for it and organizing a good sceanrio :)
16:40:19 <Eddi|zuHause> <kd5pbo> s/"/? <- syntax error ;)
16:40:46 <TrueBrain> petern: I aborted the syncing for now; will continue with it after tonights nightly :p
16:45:14 <kingj> How can I disable automatic new industry generation during game? Can't seem to find an option anywhere
16:47:22 <Ammler> needs a newgrf, afaik.
16:50:04 <Ammler> fjb: there was around 1 beta, but it was called civ, iirc.
16:50:45 <Ammler> the last try to make a community patchpack was nomicin.
16:59:43 <Ammler> wow, your GRF reached the crawler, so it lost joke state?
17:00:10 <frosch123> I put it there, after it passed 100 downloads or so...
17:00:22 <frosch123> If I had put it on bananas it would have 1000 of course :)
17:01:43 <frosch123> Ammler: what's the point of the ottdcoop 7.3 grf in bananas ?
17:02:20 <frosch123> I did, nothing happened
17:02:36 <Ammler> to show the players, where they can download the other grfs...
17:04:07 <Ammler> it shouldn't be showed over web and general download gui
17:06:28 <frosch123> hmm, Luxembourgish, I always thought they just speak french...
17:06:49 <planetmaker> frosch123: due to popular demand, it might indeed be an idea to upload your stop-industries grf to bananas...
17:07:22 <Ammler> then, I should also upload nothing.grf
17:07:33 <frosch123> well, if I distribute it too much, someone might find its bugs ...
17:08:39 <dihedral> <Ammler> [17:26:35] wwottdgd also needs a map creator <- i think there might be someone who is very talented in the forums
17:08:57 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> hmm, Luxembourgish, I always thought they just speak french... <- most people there are "tri-lingual"
17:09:08 <Ammler> i hope, you don't have the one from the megaclan in mind
17:09:35 <dihedral> the kid that made this very cool map
17:10:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Luxembourgish is kind of a german dialect, although they don't want it called like that :p
17:11:10 <planetmaker> like "don't tell a Flamish person that s/he speaks Dutch"?
17:11:31 <dihedral> planetmaker, "Were Can i get a Good compiler program to download and this is all new to me but i got time to learn alot about this" <- you really think that sounds very psoitive?
17:11:52 <Ammler> dihedral: we discussed that map once already here...
17:11:56 <dihedral> "what trunk do i start with becuse they come out like every day" <- HAHA
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17:12:11 <dihedral> now that is just awesome
17:12:14 <Ammler> dihedral: make AutoHEAD server :P
17:12:28 <dihedral> Ammler, i dont mean use that map
17:12:31 <dihedral> i mean use that author
17:13:19 <dihedral> planetmaker, first patch alain wants to include: *Distant-join-stations *
17:13:37 <Roest> that would be nice to have
17:14:11 <planetmaker> I read that thread. You may notice I even replied to that :)
17:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i could do that for him :p
17:14:24 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, svn co :-P
17:14:49 * dihedral presses ctrl+alt+c on Eddi|zuHause
17:15:10 <dihedral> yes planetmaker i am just highlighting the lovely things
17:16:05 <dihedral> yeah... funnily enough :-P
17:16:22 <planetmaker> Most people react in a way like "oh, I've to actually install a compiler?! No, thanks.".
17:16:47 <planetmaker> See the wonderful thread where Nekomaster demands binaries
17:17:04 <dihedral> this guy never touched the source, does not know what a patch looks like or how to apply it - yet as picked out a pretty tough list of things he'd like to include
17:17:17 <dihedral> heck - he does not even know how to google!
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17:17:32 <dihedral> planetmaker, which thread is that?
17:17:45 <dihedral> that sounds like fun
17:19:21 <planetmaker> and there's another.
17:19:51 <dihedral> i prefer letmegooglethatforyou
17:21:21 <dihedral> planetmaker, lovely that is :-)
17:23:06 * dihedral waits for something clever to pop up in his mind that he could add :D
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17:23:49 * dihedral thinks of the other buster
17:26:21 <Eddi|zuHause> damn, i cannot play without cargodest...
17:26:44 <Roest> then dont play without it
17:27:13 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, then help updating it ;-)
17:27:30 <planetmaker> rewrite it w/o boost :)
17:27:46 <dihedral> if you dont it'll die and you will then even end up playing without it eventually
17:27:59 <Roest> does it use bost for more than the network graph?
17:28:14 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it uses only bgl
17:28:34 <Roest> remains the question why it needs that graph
17:28:48 <Eddi|zuHause> (but that has loads of internal boost dependencies)
17:28:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Roest: for pathfinding
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17:29:25 <Roest> oh true, somehow i was only thinking the minimap
17:29:36 <Eddi|zuHause> it only generates cargo when there is a path through the graph, and only choses destinations which are reachable
17:29:57 <Eddi|zuHause> display on the minimap is a sideeffect ;)
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17:30:17 <Eddi|zuHause> that part was adapted from one of the previous paxdest patches even
17:32:11 <Ammler> but the minimap is nice
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17:35:54 <Roest> anyway i guess boost isnt really the problem isn't it?
17:39:16 <dihedral> *PLONK*Awards 2009 <- Eddi|zuHause, lovely one
17:41:31 <planetmaker> Yep. It'll get my vote :P
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18:09:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r15458 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Missing 'static'.
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18:28:09 <fjb> Can somebody please add accident statistics to level crossings an airports. :-)
18:29:13 <frosch123> write a noai that does that :p
18:29:39 <glx> frosch123: an AI only get news about his vehicles
18:30:08 <glx> there are enough leaks with that ;)
18:31:32 <frosch123> remove the "vehicle not profitable" event, and limit the eventqueue to 100 events
18:32:39 <Eddi|zuHause> suggestion: only show the 10 vehicles with the lowest income, not all with negative income
18:32:47 <RK> hi. IIRC there was a kind of web based savegame viewer vor OTTD. Anyone got an idead where to find it?
18:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> or spread the news out over the months, not all at the same time
18:33:33 <glx> RK: I don't remember any tool like that
18:34:03 <frosch123> I guess he meant SpComb's stuff, but it was a running game, not a savegame
18:34:25 <frosch123> IIRC TB also did something like that somewhen
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18:35:51 <Eddi|zuHause> didn't orudge try something like that?
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18:38:37 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: yes, but that isn't public, yet, afaik.
18:41:34 <Ammler> frosch123: how do you read the details about a grf on the webpage?
18:42:01 <Ammler> or did you with the client?
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18:46:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r15459 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:46:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-02-12 18:45:56
18:46:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 5 fixed, 3 changed by Ludslad (8)
18:46:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 18 changed by Excel20 (18)
18:46:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 3 changed by planetmaker (3)
18:46:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 changed by alyr (1)
18:46:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: ido - 27 fixed by Cecile (12), Selene (15)
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18:49:14 <SpComb> RK: not that I know of
18:49:27 <SpComb> one person once wanted to develop one with me, but I never heard from him again after the first day
18:49:57 <RK> which is more relevant to my interests :-)
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18:51:37 <orudge> The Repository (which I still haven't quite finished(!)) features the ability to view lots of data from within saved games, including maps
18:51:40 <orudge> but not an isometric view
18:51:44 <orudge> that would be technically possible
18:51:48 <orudge> but rather server-intensive, and perhaps a bit much
18:52:51 <RK> I remember a not live view based on a giant screenshot, cut into smaller pieces and with a google maps-like interface
18:56:16 <TrueBrain> RK: very nice url :)
18:56:40 <TrueBrain> I once made a proof-of-concept for something simular with dune :) Javascript allows a lot of shit nowedays :)
19:12:47 <SpComb> RK: google-mapsy for a big static image isn't too hard
19:13:40 <SpComb> I wrote the Javascript and Python for that some time ago
19:14:26 <SpComb> although it did load the whole PNG image into memory, but it's hard to find an image lib that lets you do it any better
19:19:02 <Roest> yorick i just compiled like 10 minutes ago, must be you doing it wrong :)
19:19:02 <yorick> it must be the compiler cache that doesn't like the downgrade, it works now :P
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20:05:13 <Nite_Owl> "People come and go so quickly here" - Dorthy in the Wizard of Oz
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20:38:54 <TrueBrain> pff .. 90 minutes for a nightly ... that is what happens when the CF starts using only one core .. lol
20:40:24 <TrueBrain> in a prior compile one virtualbox vm crashed
20:40:31 <TrueBrain> a case that is very hard to detect
20:40:39 <TrueBrain> as result, two threads became blocked
20:40:56 <TrueBrain> (one because of the crash, a second because of trying to boot a VM that just crashed :p)
20:41:53 <TrueBrain> I really need to rethink the compile farm (again)
20:42:08 <TrueBrain> besides the weird link-drops of the eth0, it starts to show other impossibilities ...
20:42:23 <planetmaker> he... a task I don't envy you for. Though I admire the work you put into it.
20:42:24 <Eddi|zuHause> fifth time is the charm ;)
20:42:34 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: would be the 3rd, but sure
20:42:44 <TrueBrain> it is a really complex job and collection of scripts ..
20:42:53 <TrueBrain> although this time it is much more clear what is going on .. still ... tricky
20:43:09 <TrueBrain> I need better error-checking .. which is amazingly hard to implement ..
20:44:19 <planetmaker> hm, yes... That's eating most of my daily time too: detecting anomalies in my data which hinder usual processing of the input :S
20:44:34 <planetmaker> works 95% of the time great - but one needs to know at least when the 5% happen :S
20:45:03 <TrueBrain> most of my friends come to me when they have such problems .. writing things to limit that is mostly very simple
20:45:16 <TrueBrain> but ... this ... too many platforms, with too many different things
20:45:40 <planetmaker> he, yeah. How many different binaries? A dozen?
20:45:41 <TrueBrain> "detecting of an error is more valuable than the error itself"
20:45:59 <TrueBrain> take Windows in our case ... even if a build fails, it still produces a .pdb file
20:46:17 <TrueBrain> I consider this a bug of MSVC .. but it is VERY annoying, as build failures in windows are simply not detected (it produced an output file after all)
20:46:19 <planetmaker> ... whatever that is...
20:46:36 <planetmaker> it produces an exe?
20:46:46 <TrueBrain> pdb is a debug file
20:47:11 <TrueBrain> when you send a crash report to MSVC, together with a pdb file, it will tell you where it crashed, like a backtrace
20:47:16 <TrueBrain> but the beauty of it: also on release files
20:47:59 * TrueBrain considers giving buildbot a spin ...
20:48:03 <TrueBrain> still doesn't solve my biggest problem
20:48:09 <TrueBrain> but at least makes a few things a bit easier :)
20:48:14 <glx> TrueBrain: yes it tells where, but often the variables are just wrong ;)
20:48:28 <TrueBrain> glx: you can't have it all :)
20:48:39 <glx> so for the why it's another story :P
20:48:52 <Roest> TrueBrain you need to ponder it first
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20:52:45 <TrueBrain> Roest: why would I need to do that?
20:52:49 <TrueBrain> didn't know you could command me like that ;)
20:53:27 <Roest> that was a follow up on yesterdays ponder discussion
20:54:29 <TrueBrain> which I didn't follow
20:54:32 <TrueBrain> so a bit useless comment
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21:04:46 <TrueBrain> any of you any other suggestions (besides buildbot)
21:11:38 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: a list is nice, handson experience is better
21:16:53 <Roest> oh man the pizza guy picked up an empty delivery box
21:22:10 <Roest> well the reason why i ordered was that i'm out of coke to mix with rum, but now i'm hungry too
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21:33:37 <TrueBrain> so nobody here did any work with such software .. sad .. :p
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21:49:20 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: that makes you happy? :p
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21:51:37 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: haven't seen him for ages :)
21:57:42 <el_en> why don't spaniards like openttd?
21:59:28 <dihedral> why do we have so many stupid users in the forums?
22:00:20 <dihedral> and most importantly
22:00:25 <dihedral> why does the sun set
22:01:57 <el_en> because if sun would get, it should be a const function.
22:03:18 <dihedral> now that is the best explaination i have gotten for that question in all the years i have asked it
22:04:51 <Rubidium> dihedral: that's a famous chicken-egg problem; why does the sun rise?
22:05:07 <Rubidium> if it didn't rise, it didn't need to set
22:05:09 <dihedral> Rubidium, you should read more calvin & hobbes
22:05:40 <Rubidium> but then half of the earth would be pretty cold, the other part a bit warmer, thus there'll likely be massive storms
22:06:01 <planetmaker> or as "nice" as on Venus...
22:06:12 <Rubidium> so you wouldn't see the sun setting/rising
22:06:49 <Rubidium> so it sets so you can (occasionally) see the sun instead of always having bad weather
22:06:56 <dihedral> hmm... however if you managed to make the sun move around the earth....
22:07:17 <dihedral> Rubidium, i'd live on the sunny side
22:07:39 <planetmaker> dih: I'd prefer the terminator in that case
22:07:44 <Rubidium> dihedral: there would be no sunny side due to the massive storms due to the temperature difference
22:07:53 <el_en> there would be zone of constant sun set/rise.
22:08:08 <dihedral> the storms would not be in the center of the sunny side
22:08:16 <dihedral> they'd be at the edges :P
22:08:17 <planetmaker> they'd be globally
22:08:34 <dihedral> negative nit wit :-P
22:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... this revised knight rider is definitely getting better, but i fear it is too late for the series, after the screwed up start
22:09:24 <Roest> it cant be any good without the hoff
22:10:06 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> dihedral: that's a famous chicken-egg problem; why does the sun rise? <- because Susan rescued the Hogfather
22:10:28 <dihedral> but there are no cherries at this time of the year
22:11:41 <el_en> will sarah connor chronicles get better?
22:12:06 <Roest> at which episode are they here?
22:12:07 <Rubidium> the answer to all those questions is ofcourse 42
22:12:20 * dihedral will not disturb el_en whilst asking his rhetorical questions
22:12:25 <Roest> nah there isnt episode 42 yet
22:12:26 <Rubidium> Roest: like episode 3 ;)
22:13:09 <Eddi|zuHause> most people say it gets better in season 2
22:13:14 <Roest> scc is at 2x13 in the US, i'd say it's ok
22:13:17 <dihedral> Rubidium, what kind of answer is that? :-P
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22:14:06 <el_en> sarah connor chronicles has some interesting plot details sometimes, but it tends to be too much of running away mindlessly, and the big plot advancing way too slowly.
22:14:31 <Eddi|zuHause> el_en: at which point of the series are you?
22:14:38 <Roest> well after all we know how it ends
22:15:14 <dihedral> and where is the bus with those people inside it who are interested in sarah conner and her chronicles?
22:15:43 <Rubidium> dihedral: 42nd street?
22:16:04 <dihedral> and now tell me that line 42 fixes all bugs
22:17:14 <Noldo> no, but by changing it you can have your pick from 42 different bugs
22:17:18 <el_en> Eddi|zuHause: i've watched most episodes made, i.e. at about season 2 ep 10.
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22:26:05 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15460 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (46 files): -Fix [NoAI]: don't require an instance to exist in the scope for static functions and limit exposure of the internal function GetClassName.
22:29:55 <el_en> damn, i just noticed i've been <10 km away from netherlands last year.
22:29:56 <Eddi|zuHause> "Pünktchen, Pünktchen, Komma, Strich"
22:30:03 <Eddi|zuHause> "Fertig ist das Mondgesicht"
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22:50:11 <Sacro> i thought we are asking file format questions
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22:55:15 <Ammler> Sacro: I did, I was wondering what's up with png on the log viewer
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22:55:56 <planetmaker> /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Frameworks/QD.framework/Headers/Quickdraw.h:3735: error: new declaration 'short int OTTD_Random()' /Users/ingo/ottd/fixing/src/core/random_func.hpp:86: error: ambiguates old declaration 'uint32 OTTD_Random()'
22:56:28 <planetmaker> how do I avoid that? I just added a system include in fontcache.cpp...
22:56:48 <Rubidium> include it before stdafx
22:57:29 <planetmaker> ah. will try that. thx. now it's last
23:05:56 <planetmaker> ok... compiles, though without function so far :)
23:06:11 <planetmaker> more on that Saturday, I guess :)
23:08:29 <Ammler> ah, past 0, uh, lucky me.
23:29:14 <SpComb> the old logs also redirect to the equivalent new URLs now
23:47:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15461 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/serbian.txt: -Fix (r15459): massive removal of strings from serbian.
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