IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-02-01
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00:10:51 <Elukka> my heightmap is 666x666 pixels by coincidence
00:11:09 <Elukka> i resize it shoddily in paint and end up at 666
00:11:52 <goodger> you got it down to one of the nine triple-digit numbers randomly
00:12:21 <goodger> there are nine of them
00:12:27 <Zahl> and there is no such thing as coincidence *speaks with spooky voice*
00:12:45 <Elukka> i also got 666 kills in separate battles in rome total war twice
00:12:53 <Elukka> when i played WoW, i often critted 666
00:12:57 <Elukka> clearly, i am the devil
00:13:05 <goodger> if you're thinking of the number of the beast, that's 616, or so it seems
00:24:39 <Roujin> anyone remembers talk about the filtering of gui lists some days ago?
00:25:22 <Roujin> I got a working prototype of it now
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00:34:56 <Roujin> anyone can tell me quick how to check if a string starts with another string?
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00:36:36 <Roujin> strncmp(str1, str2, length of shorter string) ?
00:36:57 <Rubidium> something like that yes
00:39:45 <Roujin> strlen > O(1) I guess?
00:40:21 <Rubidium> it's definitely O(n)
00:40:42 <Rubidium> where n depends on how far the first 0 byte is
00:41:48 <Roujin> hmm hmm.. then I'll calculate it before the loop and save it in a temp var.. ah, works! sweet :)
00:42:26 <Roujin> I think it's in a presentable state now.. going to upload to flyspray :)
00:51:05 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r15303 /trunk/src/saveload/town_sl.cpp: -Fix (r12381): desync if a GRF used town's last month max. pass/mail
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00:51:57 <Eddi|zuHause> what does it matter if strlen is O(n) when strcmp is O(n) as well...
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00:55:05 <Rubidium> but it doesn't change the upper complexity bound
00:56:59 <Rubidium> though one could argue that the string comparison is O(1) in this case
00:57:15 <thingwath> if we compare only strings no longer then some n, then we may say it is O(1)
00:57:36 <SmatZ> if they differ in the first char, then determining the length is the slowest part
01:05:39 <Eddi|zuHause> why is determining strlen even necessary?
01:06:05 <TinoDidriksen> It is possible to implement a very fast string comparison by comparing 32-bits at a time and other tricks, but is it really a critical part?
01:07:07 <Eddi|zuHause> TinoDidriksen: no, it is not, because you are comparing utf-8 strings
01:07:23 <Eddi|zuHause> which means you have variable character length
01:08:53 <TinoDidriksen> Which makes no real difference...compare bits up until they differ, then go from there with more thorough checks. Still faster than breaking into characters first.
01:09:04 <Roujin> eddi: because I want to use strncmp to check if string A is the beginning of string B. do you have a better solution?
01:09:20 <Roujin> i.e. strncmp(a, b, strlen(a))
01:09:50 <TinoDidriksen> Roujin, is it critical that it is fast?
01:10:30 <Roujin> I wouldn't break my leg to have it as fast as possible
01:10:55 <TinoDidriksen> Then strncmp() will do fine.
01:11:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Roujin: but there are other functions than strncmp
01:11:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Roujin: basically you want to find the first differing character, and then check if the character of a at that position is 0
01:12:06 <Eddi|zuHause> saves calculating the length
01:12:16 <Roujin> if there is already something better suited for the task in standard libs or openttd, enlighten me :)
01:12:26 <Eddi|zuHause> how should i know
01:12:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i am not a c programmer
01:12:50 <Eddi|zuHause> in python i'd say "b.startswith(a)"
01:14:09 <TinoDidriksen> strncmp() is correct for standard C, but you run into issues if b is shorter than a so have to check that as well.
01:15:06 <Eddi|zuHause> TinoDidriksen: well, if he calculates strlen(a), he might as well check strlen(b), too
01:15:15 <SmatZ> TinoDidriksen: why? it will stop if a < b
01:15:22 <Roujin> Tino: If there are less than count characters in either string, then the comparison will stop after the first null termination is encountered.
01:17:19 <TinoDidriksen> Oh right...forgot strncmp() was safe enough. I'm used to paranoid coding and always knowing the length of everything.
01:18:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i say C/C++ is not the best language for beginner coders, there are too many side effects and corner cases to consider
01:19:32 <TinoDidriksen> Absolutely true, but C/C++ are the best once you know what you're doing.
01:20:18 <|Japa|> the only programming I ever did was on my C64
01:20:26 <Eddi|zuHause> no, only they are the most common, so usually they get you the furthest
01:20:55 <SmatZ> I started with basic, later I came to pascal... and I hated it!
01:21:12 <SmatZ> so I was coding in ASM for ~6 years...
01:21:38 <SmatZ> but then I started using linux, so I got C compiler... and I like C/C++ since then ;)
01:21:52 <TinoDidriksen> I wish D would get more recognition. That's C++ done right.
01:22:06 <SmatZ> I miss bitfields in D :-)
01:22:13 <TinoDidriksen> Either that or C++0x getting finished...
01:22:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i liked Pascal and hated C
01:22:29 <Eddi|zuHause> never did a lot of ASM
01:22:51 <TinoDidriksen> C++ has std::bitset ...
01:23:01 <Eddi|zuHause> ASM is fun and all, but it very soon gets very annoying if you are not heavily organised
01:23:32 <Eddi|zuHause> TinoDidriksen: what are the odds of them having to rename it to C++1x?
01:23:38 <SmatZ> TinoDidriksen: does it allow "packed unions" like bitfields? so you can access bits / bit groups in an int by names ;)
01:23:57 <SmatZ> btw, I like "restrict" in C99 :)
01:24:29 <TinoDidriksen> They shouldn't have to rename it to 1x. Many vendors are already implementing features from 0x, so it's getting usable.
01:25:28 <Eddi|zuHause> TinoDidriksen: then they have to finalise it this year
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01:38:05 <Elukka> why is it not possible to have two tracks on one tile, when it is done on diagonal track?
01:40:03 <Eddi|zuHause> because nobody programmed it
01:40:05 <Elukka> of course, that'd introduce the problem of jamming 4 tracks on one tile on diagonals...
01:41:05 <SmatZ> Elukka: please come back with not-so-tired ideas :-P
01:41:19 <Elukka> hey, you could easily fit 2 tracks on one tile
01:41:39 <Elukka> hmm... should i say the R-word...
01:41:43 <Elukka> yes, they'd also be more realistic
01:41:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but how do you make switches between them? or to normal rail tiles?
01:42:20 <Elukka> i have absolutely no idea
01:42:41 <Elukka> hey, it's 4 am, i have the right to be slow
01:43:03 <TinoDidriksen> If you really want to go realistic, you have to re-scale everything. Roads and rail should be much smaller compared to buildings.
01:43:04 <Elukka> uh, make stations that can accomodate tighter tracks? :P
01:43:27 <Elukka> tino, lets not even talk of complete realism :D
01:44:29 <|Japa|> every station I've seen have two tracks beween a pair of platforms
01:45:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: the question is a) when the platform does not fit on the track tile, how do you enforce having platforms on the neighbouring tiles? and b) how do you extend the newgrf spec and provide extensions of the default graphics?
01:45:31 <Roujin> SmatZ: whoops, that's nothing ^^
01:45:49 <Eddi|zuHause> |Japa|: i have seen ones that did not
01:46:11 <Roujin> I wanted to add something there, then noticed it wasn't necessary hehe
01:47:34 <Roujin> instead of removing it again seems I just commented it out, embarassing :P
01:49:18 <|Japa|> oh come on, is it that hard to check if there's a platform adjoining the track?
01:50:02 <|Japa|> only problem I can see is the fact that on the diagonals there'll be 4 tracks on it
01:51:09 <Elukka> only problem, besides the huge amount of programming pains :P
01:51:39 <Eddi|zuHause> <|Japa|> oh come on, is it that hard to check if there's a platform adjoining the track? <- yes. it is. because the current code does not check for platforms at all, it checks for station tiles
01:52:25 <|Japa|> I'm no programmer, so I'll just keep my mouth shut now
01:52:51 <|Japa|> and daydream about smooth curves
01:54:28 <Eddi|zuHause> how does one daydream at 3AM?
01:54:46 <Elukka> i give up... is anyone else able to generate heightmaps of areas?
01:55:20 <Elukka> apparently the srtm plugin only runs on older versions of google earth, which dont exist or dont work anymore
02:22:13 <Roujin> well, I'd be happy about some comments on the filtering patch.. ('sides that freak commented nonsense line, SmatZ :P hehe) If I didn't mess something up, it should be usable in all kinds of places: Filter sign list, filter purchase list for specific cargoes, etc. :)
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02:23:05 <SmatZ> interesting is there is already "Filter signs" patch
02:23:38 <Roujin> but this is a more general approach (I hope)
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02:26:53 <Roujin> so if these changes to GUIList were in trunk, Zuu could keep the GUI changes of his patch and define a callback function for the filtering he needs..
02:27:04 <Roujin> SmatZ: did you apply the second patch only?
02:27:22 <SmatZ> second patch? ... /me looks
02:30:45 <SmatZ> yay, it's a Celestar! ;-)
02:31:16 <Roujin> uhm.. okay o_O I swear it compiled for me... checking...
02:32:00 <DorpsGek> Celestar: Darkvater was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 2 days, 5 hours, 55 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Darkvater> interseting
02:32:32 <SmatZ> Roujin: even gcc 4.1.2 doesn't compile it
02:33:35 <SmatZ> Roujin: gcc 3.4.6 compiles it though...
02:33:57 <Celestar> hm. installing XP64 as a guest OS takes "approximately" 28 minutes
02:34:39 <Roujin> aha. well. I do not really know what I did that may have upset gcc 4.1.2 oO
02:35:24 <SmatZ> Roujin: I am using 4.3.3 :)
02:35:42 <SmatZ> almost as ancient as 2.95.3 ;-)
02:36:18 <Roujin> well, I am using MSVC right now, and that didn't complain either :P
02:37:21 <SmatZ> well it compiles with -fpermissive ;)
02:38:33 <SmatZ> but it's not in CFLAGS for OTTD
02:38:51 <Roujin> okay I see what I did there
02:39:19 <SmatZ> hmmm no it doesn't compile with -fpermissive, I forgot to switch gcc
02:40:01 <Roujin> I named a function "Filter", but also a struct.
02:40:10 <SmatZ> no gcc 3.4.6 doesn't compile it neither
02:42:53 <Roujin> well well the difference between compilers :P should I hate gcc now that it doesn't like what I did, or MSVC that it didn't give me any hint that I'm possibly doing a stupid thing? :D
02:43:19 <Roujin> going to rename the stuff and upload a new version quick..
02:43:38 <SmatZ> everyone who uses both hates MSVC
02:59:55 <goodger> you should always blame MSVC
03:01:07 <goodger> do read things properly, Celestar
03:01:10 <SmatZ> grep sometimes logs | wc -l
03:01:11 <Celestar> oh. I read "should not"
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03:07:43 <Roujin> so... finally. I hope this compiles on gcc now too
03:08:41 <Roujin> but now I have to catch some sleep.. much too late already -__-
03:14:02 <Celestar> can anyone recommend some free antivirus for XP? :P
03:15:52 <glx> but I don't know if they are compatible with xp64
03:18:35 <Celestar> I only need to turn the netnotworking into networking
03:19:34 <goodger> it's gone the way of norton
03:21:08 <glx> I have no problem with avg
03:22:11 <Nite_Owl> neither do I except that it is no longer going to support the ancient OS I use on some of my computers
03:23:49 <Nite_Owl> Windows 98 for the curious
03:24:23 <glx> my win98 box is still on 6.5
03:25:24 <Nite_Owl> 7.5 here but AVG support stops at the end of Feb
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03:44:27 <Celestar> dis AVG stuff costs money, doesn't it?
03:45:41 <goodger> it's gone the way of norton, as I said. poking its tendrils into your system
03:45:54 <Celestar> goodger: other suggestions?
03:46:01 <glx> it's easily uninstalable (unlike norton)
03:46:09 <Celestar> maybe I should install Sophos
03:46:25 <goodger> I hear good things about avast
03:46:33 <goodger> it's the AVG of the twenty-first century
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03:48:21 <Nite_Owl> no - AVG has a free version
03:48:51 <goodger> thanks go to glx for that information
03:48:53 <glx> the free version doesn't have all the things similar to norton
03:49:04 <goodger> it's still slow, though
03:49:53 <Nite_Owl> sorry - I got dropped and missed a bit
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03:54:27 * Celestar thinks the mozilla devs should be executed for setting the default download location to the desktop
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03:56:57 <Nite_Owl> it is easy to change the download location
03:58:13 <Nite_Owl> tools -> options -> main
03:59:39 <Nite_Owl> although this is an old version of Firefox - it may have changed
04:03:59 <Nite_Owl> I use a specific 'download' folder
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09:55:48 <Wolf01> could I ask if is possible to browse the grf list by folder and not like the windows' search function? Now I have a lot of grfs separated in folders (vehicles, infrastructures, industries...) all subfolders of the newgrf folder placed in the data folder, see: http://wolf01.game-host.org/OTTD_related/newgrf_folders.PNG
09:56:52 <Wolf01> having a lot of grfs ends up with an infinite list of grfs and I always miss something because they are always mixed up
09:57:16 <Ammler> Wolf01: afaik, it is quite hard, else it would already be implemented in the "better newgrf gui"
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09:58:33 <Wolf01> maybe it's time to drop the listbox and use something like the advanced settings tree
09:58:55 <Alberth> I was waiting for someone to figure that out :D
09:58:58 <Ammler> some newgrfs matches more then one category
09:59:00 <Prof_Frink> What about doing away with the "Add NewGRF" window and simply having an on/off toggle for any grfs it can find in the main newgrf window?
09:59:40 <Wolf01> Ammler I mean the browsing of grfs not the loaded grfs
10:00:37 <Wolf01> the "categories" then are the phisical folders
10:01:02 <Alberth> Ammler: duplicating the entries would be a possibility, I think
10:01:20 <Wolf01> it is where you downloaded the grfs, if you have a grf which belongs to 2 categories you simply place it in the newgrf folder
10:02:00 <Ammler> how does bananas know which one you want?
10:02:37 <Wolf01> and it doesn't require any change at grfs
10:03:10 <Alberth> Can we not consider 'directory' to be one form of category?
10:03:39 <Alberth> or 'path of the grf', rather
10:03:39 <Wolf01> it changes only the way of showing the grfs the game finds, showing you the same folder tree you make in your filesystem to divide the grfs
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10:04:25 <Ammler> Alberth: we do that already in the coop pack, works well, imo.
10:04:45 <Ammler> the categories are from grfcrawler
10:04:56 <Alberth> Wolf01: it is a matter of time until someone wants to add other categories
10:05:07 <Wolf01> i don't want categories
10:05:08 <Alberth> Ammler: yes, the coop pack structure is very useful
10:05:36 <Wolf01> I only want a tree view on the "ADD GRF" popup
10:05:41 <Alberth> well, maybe a directory structure is enough
10:05:47 <Ammler> those folders are not just for the categories, it handles also the orders.
10:07:25 <Alberth> Ammler: how can that be done in a less-controlled environment such as bananas?
10:07:40 <Ammler> dependencies contolling
10:07:51 <Ammler> already something there, afaik
10:08:20 <Alberth> Ammler: you mean download dependencies?
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10:09:13 <Ammler> well, it is only a part
10:10:09 <Alberth> yes, grf dependencies are more complicated, I fear
10:10:33 <Ammler> it would need "wiki-style" edit rights
10:10:56 <Ammler> as most authors don't care much about other grfs.
10:11:16 <Alberth> Good morning Roest, you should read the past 15 minutes IRC about newgrf window changes
10:12:37 <Roest> Alberth is the a weblink to the channel history?
10:14:07 <Ammler> this gui has also drag&drop -> easy sorting :-)
10:14:20 <Wolf01> that way is not easily readable, but at least they are sorted
10:15:17 <Roest> too bad grfs dont have a category flag
10:15:49 <Ammler> could be managed from banans
10:16:07 <Ammler> like dependencies and orders
10:16:08 <Alberth> Ammler: nah, should be part of the grf itself
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10:16:26 <Ammler> Alberth: just think about old grfs
10:16:37 <Alberth> we had a long discussion about that last week
10:17:06 <Alberth> Ammler: yes, but anything outside the grf is not robust enough
10:17:29 <Ammler> wiki-style would solve that
10:18:10 <Alberth> what do you want to edit exactly?
10:18:29 <Ammler> categories/dependencies/orders/parameters
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10:20:22 <Ammler> dependencies and orders is mostly given by category
10:20:45 <Ammler> like category vehicels is exclusive
10:21:42 <Ammler> and the main order like landscape->infrastructure->industries->stations->vehicels...
10:21:52 <Alberth> I don't disagree with the fact that we'd need this information, but bananas doesn't seem like the right place for it to me
10:23:36 <Ammler> but since bananans, nobody will read reames anymore, and infos like how to set newbridges parameters for naroads will go lost.
10:23:37 <frosch123> [11:24] <Ammler> and the main order like landscape->infrastructure->industries->stations->vehicels... <- what is your reasoning for that?
10:23:41 <Roest> are there still unused bytes in the grf spec that could be utilized?
10:23:52 <Ammler> frosch123: experience ;-)
10:24:29 <frosch123> Roest: you can append as much as you like to action8, just that it is not very useful when noone uses it
10:26:07 <Alberth> Ammler: I am more thinking in the direction of a seperate program. You give it grfs, and it decides in what order to load. It can also generate additional data like parm information
10:26:40 <Ammler> Alberth: yes, a newgrf presets repo :-)
10:26:40 <frosch123> e.g. it was also suggested to add a version number to a grf, so the newest one would be chosen, if the exact same it not available. but it seems grfids are already hard enough to deal with
10:27:11 <Ammler> frosch123: last byte of grfid should do that
10:27:27 <Roest> alberth i think the dependency issue can be solved by some auto sorting, that just moves grf down the list, though that would screw up your manual sorting
10:27:33 <frosch123> ammler: grfid should be changed, if the grfs are incompatible
10:27:47 <Alberth> you could distribute a data file for the program with bananas though
10:27:50 <Ammler> well, not sure about that anymore
10:28:08 <frosch123> but noone does that, e.g. industrial stations still have the same grfid as version1, egrvts has the same id as grvts
10:28:40 <Alberth> Roest: auto-sorting is nice, but you do need data on how to sort, and the grf itself is not going to tell you that.
10:28:40 <frosch123> bananas is better in that point, as it can check those stuff and enforce an incremental version
10:28:46 <Ammler> frosch123: if they would change the ID, you can't update the set on a running game.
10:29:03 <Ammler> so you are on the safe side, but who likes that :P
10:29:20 <frosch123> well, what does upgrading help, if it is not compatible either?
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10:29:35 <Ammler> not everything changes
10:30:02 <Ammler> so you send all trains to depot->update->fix stations->release trains.
10:30:43 <Ammler> but if I could choose, I would like also they change the ID
10:31:03 <Roest> Alberth: what we have now is when you hit the submit button is a status ok or not loaded because it has to be after something else, now the auto thing could move such grfs down the list and try a submit every step
10:32:19 <Ammler> Roest: sorting mostly just gives some glitches
10:32:28 <Alberth> Ammler, frosch123: maybe the ID checking is too precise?
10:32:32 <Ammler> not sure, how openttd will detect that
10:32:57 <doc> I'd like an easy way to change tracks. I've got rails and trains running on them. Would love to be able to upgrade the entire lot to maglev but means starting that line's trains from scratch
10:33:39 <Alberth> doc: you did find the 'upgrade' button in the bar?
10:33:54 <doc> Alberth: that's fine for the tracks, but you put trains into depot and can't upgrade those, can you?
10:34:47 <Alberth> doc: ah, no you cannot. You'll have to build one new train and clone the others, I am afraid.
10:35:00 <doc> Alberth: right, and therein lies the pita :/
10:35:21 <Ammler> doc, you can clone the orders
10:35:32 <Roest> wasnt there a patch that did just that a while back?
10:35:37 <doc> yeah, but on a track with about 60 trains it's tedious :)
10:35:50 <Ammler> and if you upgrade to maglev, you need less trains anyway
10:36:03 <Ammler> so train managment is needed.
10:36:14 <Alberth> you know you can copy the orders while cloning?
10:36:18 <doc> yeah, but it's easier to do that once the trains are running
10:37:01 <doc> Alberth: I'm not really cloning the train though. Just the orders
10:37:12 <doc> anyway, sleep time. night
10:38:52 <Ammler> why doesn't banans read the name and desc from the grf itself?
10:40:20 <Rubidium> because the name contains the version and the description's often too long
10:40:53 <Rubidium> and there's no way to reliably fix both problems
10:41:18 <petern> there's no description
10:41:26 <petern> or it doesn't contain useful information
10:43:51 <Ammler> the most authors needed to make a update for bananas anyway, i.e. license
10:49:45 <petern> That doesn't make sense :p
10:50:15 <Ammler> but it looks like that. :-)
10:52:01 <Prof_Frink> Wow, this queue is longer than the M25
10:52:51 <Alberth> Prof_Frink: luckily, you can simply add another road next to it :)
10:53:47 <Prof_Frink> Nah, the AI code should've thought of that
10:58:24 <Prof_Frink> They should just be glad that the lorries-driving-through-each-other bug hasn't been fixed
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11:02:56 * Prof_Frink uploads a giant screenshot
11:05:26 <Wolf01> uhm... a 35 seats double decker bus refitted to carry the impressive number of ... 8 tourists
11:05:52 <Roest> that's some luxus tourist bus now
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11:06:51 <Roest> it now has a bar and a pool on the upper deck
11:07:15 <Wolf01> it's me or I can't see anymore the color rectangles on the comboboxes on the color scheme gui?
11:07:58 <Roest> though i wonder how the handling would be with like 5000 litres of water on the uppder deck of a double decker
11:08:02 <Eddi|zuHause> tourists is a very wrong cargo imho
11:08:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: 35/4 = 8 [rounded]
11:08:38 <|Japa|> if you would refit it for the guys around here, it'd take at least 200
11:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the conversion factor for "other" cargo
11:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> because the vehicle did not specify a capacity callback
11:09:53 <Wolf01> SHIT! I forgot to enable the engine pool -.-
11:10:51 <Wolf01> Prof_Frink maybe if you don't use spaces next time :P
11:12:08 <Ammler> openttd shouldn't generate such file names, either :-)
11:12:58 <el_en> Ammler: don't blame openttd for firefox's bugs.
11:13:00 <Roest> write a patch, should be just one line or so, replacing spaces with underscores
11:13:10 <Ammler> el_en: not firefox here
11:13:18 <Prof_Frink> Wolf01: Maybe if you patch openttd so it doesn't use spaces
11:13:21 <Ammler> my irc client can't handle it
11:13:42 <el_en> Ammler: not there, but at Prof_Frink's.
11:14:08 <Ammler> firefox should be able to handle that link
11:14:22 <el_en> Ammler: also your irc client is not to blame, because URLs do not contain spaces.
11:14:27 <Prof_Frink> konqui certainly can, and that's where I pasted it from
11:14:57 <Ammler> el_en: never blamed my irc client :P
11:15:05 <el_en> ah, konqui is broken too then, like firefox 3. the relevant part is "where I pasted it from".
11:15:37 <Eddi|zuHause> invisible stations, how silly
11:16:57 <el_en> because a URL does not contain spaces, and you can get ones with spaces from firefox or konqui, then clearly firefox and konqui are broken.
11:17:15 <Wolf01> and next time, please tell us that is a football-field-sized picture, so I don't open it and my comp runs better
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11:18:09 <Prof_Frink> [11:02:55] * Prof_Frink uploads a giant screenshot
11:19:48 * Wolf01 have the chat view little enough to miss a sentence sent 15 lines before the link :P
11:20:39 <Prof_Frink> Well, it took that long to upload
11:20:49 <Prof_Frink> And you should pay attention more.
11:21:13 <Wolf01> whoa, that's a record! FF using 660mb of swap!
11:21:57 * |Japa| puts the image into his download manager
11:22:01 <Wolf01> and I'm not able to close it :|
11:22:16 <Wolf01> the only thing which works is the chat
11:23:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no problem with the picture
11:25:44 <el_en> me neither, except that i can't do anything else with firefox in the meantime. and it's still loading.
11:25:46 <|Japa|> I'd not have a problem if I wan't already downloading Cygwin on a shared connection
11:28:12 <|Japa|> and the owner of hte connection is miserly about it
11:29:50 <|Japa|> I am embarking on a futile quest
11:31:59 <|Japa|> to wreak havok with the ottd source untill I manage either to put myself to sleep, or get two trains on one track
11:33:52 <|Japa|> I'm gonna attempt to somehow get a track to go like this: ---<===>----
11:33:58 <|Japa|> all with one tile with
11:34:13 <|Japa|> I have a 0.1% chance of success
11:34:54 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you "just" have to mimic road vehicle movement ;)
11:35:36 <|Japa|> straights should be relativeley simple....
11:36:00 <|Japa|> it'lll be turns that'll be hard
11:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> those should just be transitions to regular track
11:38:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r15304 /trunk/src/saveload/vehicle_sl.cpp: -Fix [FS#2587]: When loading savegames use the roadtype of the front vehicles just like it is done on construction.
11:41:55 <el_en> interesting, i was able to increase my ADSL2+ connection speed by 1200 kb/s by adjusting hidden settings on the ADSL modem.
11:43:29 <stillunknown> kilobit/s or kilobyte/s?
11:44:24 <Eddi|zuHause> can i do that with my DSL 1/3, too?
11:44:51 <el_en> kilobits naturally, as i wrote.
11:45:19 <Roest> what hidden setting did you fix, did you close your wireless and your neighbour cant download porn anymore?
11:52:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15305 /trunk/src/sound/allegro_s.cpp: -Fix (r15299): missing include
11:55:45 <Elukka> 2 tracks per tile, looks like
11:55:47 <|Japa|> something that is about al likeley to happen as MS goin OSS
11:55:51 <Elukka> now go code it damnit :P
11:56:13 <petern> why not have smaller tiles?
11:56:15 <Elukka> i'd love it if tracks didnt use so much space...
11:56:27 <petern> oh, because people want bigger tiles because they're idiots
11:57:15 <|Japa|> rais thescale of everything, effectivley making hte tiles smaller, and giving lcloser zoom!
11:57:36 <petern> if openttd could support longer vehicles (like George wants) then you could have rails fill a tile
11:57:37 <|Japa|> I need to look before I press enter
11:57:39 <Elukka> yeah, it'd only require redoing everything! :P
11:57:58 <petern> Elukka: yeah but that's only everything
11:58:00 <Elukka> i'd be content with 2 tracks per tile
11:58:09 <Elukka> have a normal track option and a double track option
11:58:21 <petern> you can't have two tracks per tile (except those horizontal/vertical tiles)
11:58:35 <Elukka> sure you could, if someone coded it :P
11:59:09 <Roest> i tend to believe it when peter says you can't
11:59:18 <|Japa|> I ran out of books to read, so now I'm gonna read the ottd source untill it starts making sense
11:59:53 <|Japa|> tho... the last thing I coded was for the C64, sooo.....
12:00:07 <petern> you need to rewrite the train controller, the collision detection and the 3 pathfinders
12:00:11 <|Japa|> don't expect anything in the next 10 years from me :)
12:00:12 <petern> just to start with, heh
12:00:32 <frosch123> and the vehicle pos hash
12:00:43 <petern> frosch123: that was my second item ;)
12:00:48 <frosch123> and building removing tracks, ...
12:01:19 <Elukka> see! it's possible, just not bloody likely
12:01:23 <Roest> can do a new map array while you're at it
12:01:28 <frosch123> oh, the topic was more tracks, not longer vehicles :s
12:02:09 <|Japa|> longer vehicles ~= tracks closer together
12:02:30 <petern> train collision detection takes no account of shorter vehicles
12:02:30 <|Japa|> both probably need equiviland amounnts of work
12:03:01 <petern> frosch123, longer vehicles == lots of articulated parts ;)
12:03:06 <Elukka> i'd put more tracks before longer vehicles
12:03:18 <Elukka> LV4 long vehicles are already huge
12:03:28 <petern> Elukka, you missed the point
12:03:29 <frosch123> hehe, when you allow wagons with length > 8/16, you can bulldoze a tile in the middle of the train while it is driving on horizontal/vertical track :p
12:04:12 <|Japa|> playing with the US trainset in the 1800's when all the vehicles are that long is.... interesting
12:04:58 <Elukka> i'm torn on whether i like nars2 or the old version better
12:06:13 <Elukka> wait, i think i'm confusing different sets
12:06:38 <Elukka> was it the american transition set which had real vehicle colours?
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12:09:26 <Elukka> for some reason, i thought they were the same set
12:09:54 <Elukka> that's what i'm torn on, then :P
12:10:00 <Elukka> do i like nars2 or the transition set better
12:11:07 <petern> if you read the documentation of nars2 you'll find something about parameters that might interest you
12:11:39 <Elukka> it had something about different colour schemes for each player, but it doesnt have the pretty logos and real colours
12:12:38 <Ammler> loading saves with "noAI"-ais is possible?
12:12:54 <petern> 2livery cycleMany locomotives in the set have four different liveries. Normally, player 1 gets livery 1, player 2 gets livery 2, etcera. The value of this parameter is added to the player number; for example, if the parameter = 2, then player 1 will get livery 3
12:13:38 <petern> the sprites are too small to see logos, but you do get 'real' colours on some things
12:14:01 <Elukka> there are little logos on the transition set!
12:14:07 <petern> suspended monorail replacing trams is... quite silly
12:14:07 <Elukka> i'm not entirely sure i've figured out parameters
12:14:34 <petern> i have a horse-drawn suspended passenger cart :o
12:14:59 <Ammler> src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqapi.cpp:679: void sq_pop(SQVM*, SQInteger): Assertion `v->_top >= nelemstopop' failed.
12:15:07 <Elukka> what exactly would i write if i wanted player 1 to have all the liveries?
12:15:53 <Ammler> SmatZ: update the server, seems to work in trunk
12:16:09 <Ammler> or is that fixed after current nightly?
12:18:12 <SmatZ> Ammler: it was fixed ~3 days ago
12:18:24 <Wolf01> 10 passengers in that little space?
12:18:43 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Commit by Yexo :: r15284 trunk/src/ai/ai_instance.cpp (2009-01-27 13:11:11 UTC)
12:18:44 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: -Fix [FS#2582] (r15045): Parameters were popped from the squirrel stack twice.
12:18:52 <svip> |Japa|: Quite strange houses for 1835.
12:19:36 <Ammler> svip: yeah, old houses and industries are needed :-)
12:19:48 <Elukka> guh... i downloaded stuff from the national map seamless server, thinking i'd get elevation data
12:19:56 <Elukka> i got a 300 mb geotiff which has simple geometric shapes
12:22:29 <|Japa|> combine that with the roadset that gives horse carriages, and force somebody to make sailing ships, and wre all set :P
12:33:12 <Ammler> newships have one, afaik
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12:43:53 <Elukka> i have a huge resolution heightmap
12:43:58 <Elukka> however, i cant get this program to save it
12:44:22 <Elukka> it gives me a very informative "ERROR: Unable to create output file"
12:45:06 <Roest> it's most likely unable to create an output file
12:45:23 <Elukka> this isnt a good way to get heightmaps for ttd :/
12:45:29 <Elukka> but there is no other way that actually works
12:48:00 <Elukka> i still have no idea how people make their scenarios... is there some top sekkrit heightmap service?
12:48:49 <Roest> i think i did it as described int he first post
12:50:10 <Roest> It is not known yet whether it was on the correct route. apparently not
12:50:26 <Rubidium> they shouldn't make busses that are 9 pixels high when the bridge clearing is only 8 pixels
12:51:21 <Aali> clearly this accident was the GRF designers fault
12:51:41 <Elukka> eh... i thought graphics that are too big just clip through things
12:53:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: if you only had mapgen ;)
12:53:26 <Elukka> can mapgen get me heightmaps of real areas?
12:54:06 <petern> i think that's all it can do...
12:55:04 <Elukka> google finds stuff about mars rovers
12:56:24 <Elukka> and i am not sure how mars rovers can help me
12:58:56 <Aali> make a mars scenario, duh
13:05:27 <Alberth> Buy one, and let it do map generation of the area you are interested in
13:06:50 <Elukka> buy? i dont like the word buy :P
13:07:30 <Elukka> there's a ton of free data, it's just that it's almost impossible to get to it and get it to a png heightmap
13:12:48 <Eddi|zuHause> the data is not free if you have no way of handling it
13:19:22 <Elukka> in the guide, it appears he is using google earth 3
13:19:35 <Elukka> "Google Earth has encountered a problem and needs to close."
13:20:47 <Elukka> it cant be this hard to get a heightmap...
13:21:21 <Elukka> i've tried everything i can think of now
13:21:36 <Elukka> the srtm plugin does not work
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14:27:09 <Sacro> If I had a nickel for every time I’ve insulted Americans, I’d go to the bank and exchange it for some proper currency.
14:27:26 * edeca throws Sacro a complimentary nickel
14:30:10 * Sacro takes it to get it changed to some proper currency
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14:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a loophole in the german euro transition
14:33:25 <Eddi|zuHause> 1 Pfennig was (or actually still is) worth 0,51 Cent
14:33:47 <Eddi|zuHause> so if you go to the bank and want to exchange 1 Pfennig, they have to give you 1 Cent, because they have to round it
14:33:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so you almost double your money ;)
14:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it was widely abused, though ;)
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14:34:50 <thingwath> the only problem is, that almost nothing * 2 is still almost nothing
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14:37:26 <el_en> hmm, in finland the smallest coin in use was 10p (worth 1.68 cents), and the smallest euro coin is 5c. that's almost 3 times!
14:39:18 <Sacro> smallest Ukrainian coin I saw was 5 kopek
14:39:22 <Sacro> that's about half a penny
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15:09:13 <frosch123> petern: why is the maximum aircraft speed the minimum of the property and cb 36 result?
15:10:16 <frosch123> he, that is less than two years ago
15:10:55 <petern> i think it was something to do with breakdowns...
15:11:53 <Prof_Frink> There be white stuff falling from the sky!
15:13:41 <Prof_Frink> Attempting to, anyways
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15:21:10 <OwenS> Prof_Frink: Attempting to? Is it being blown back up or something? ;-)
15:22:31 <petern> should i get a cheap X stand or an expensive Z stand?
15:24:54 <Prof_Frink> OwenS: It's stopped.
15:25:14 <Prof_Frink> petern: An inbetween Y stand.
15:25:39 <OwenS> How about an "a" stand (Wrapping arround to lower case :P )
15:26:39 <petern> Prof_Frink, ho ho ho :p
15:28:16 <OwenS> Aah, for that you want a @ stand ;-)
15:40:19 <svip> Apparently my client crops off lines a bit too early.
15:40:33 <svip> If an @ is not followed by anything, its rightmost pixels are gone.
15:41:16 <Sacro> a yorkshireman dosn't remove his '@ for anyone
15:41:36 <Sacro> <Sacro's housemate> Oh hai!
15:47:15 * OwenS wonders why his QTableView refuses to reorganize itself likt it's told to
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15:51:54 * OwenS wishes Faith would stop sitting in front of his main monitor
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16:10:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r15306 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Deduplicate code by adding Engine::GetDisplayMaxSpeed(), GetPower() and GetDisplayWeight(). (and using them)
16:13:06 <|Japa|> my engine is still in preeschool
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16:21:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r15307 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (5 files): -Fix: AIVehicle::GetCurrentSpeed() should also use km-ish/h instead of mph. (Documentation by Rubidium)
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16:24:15 <petern> return ::GetVehicle(vehicle_id)->GetDisplaySpeed() * 16 / 10;
16:24:24 <petern> isn't that going to have silly rounding effects?
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17:02:02 <welshdragon> also, how bad is the buffering?
17:03:28 <dihedral> Rubidium, src/video/cocoa/event.mm:101
17:03:34 <dihedral> that is what will hide the os x mouse
17:04:28 <dihedral> src/video/cocoa/wnd_quarz.mm:709 is what checks if the mouse is in the openttd window or not
17:04:55 <dihedral> however, if the openttd window is covered by the doc, the doc forces the os x mouse to be shown
17:05:39 <dihedral> and due to the if (_show_mouse), when the mouse leaves the dock area, and is still in the openttd window, it does not get hidden again
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17:10:13 <joepie91> can anybody help me with cargodest problems?
17:10:27 <edeca> Not if you don't specify the problem
17:10:50 <joepie91> i set up a multiplayer server with Mega's Europe Map (some people might know it) and I am running the cargodest build, but the problem is that the Kuwait oil thingy doesnt put anything in the station
17:11:03 <joepie91> it has a very high production, but no goods appear at the station, while i am sure its in range
17:11:12 <joepie91> it always worked on regular builds, just not on the cargodest build
17:11:43 <joepie91> anybody has experience with this problem?
17:12:18 <frosch123> did you already send a vehicle to the station?
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17:13:12 <joepie91> three trains are running in a circular circuit
17:13:52 <joepie91> one station is the oil plant, the other is the oil refinery thingy (dont know the exact translation, i'm playing in Dutch :)
17:14:31 <dihedral> cargodest does not work with that map
17:14:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r15308 /trunk/src/ (13 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Deduplicate km-ish/h -> mph conversions.
17:14:58 <Elukka> are you sure the wagons carry the right stuff?
17:15:10 <Sacro> in the middle of the oreo!
17:15:14 <Sacro> no, that's the white stuff
17:15:50 <dihedral> then that's settled :-P
17:15:52 <Prof_Frink> The dutch are still silly.
17:16:35 <joepie91> there are correct wagons
17:16:40 <joepie91> i might just have an idea...
17:16:42 <Rubidium> and the English buy a Dutch bank for several billions and go almost bankrupt on that
17:17:00 <edeca> And no english bank bought it :\
17:17:14 <edeca> It just got fucked up in iceland, and british savers were screwed over
17:17:50 <Rubidium> Sacro: ABN Amro isn't Icelandic
17:18:18 <Sacro> my money is with the Hong Kong/Shanghei Banking Coorporation
17:20:08 * frosch123 got a letter that his money is safe up to 1 125 033 000 €
17:20:43 <joepie91> ah, the oil thingy is working now... it had something to do with my new experimental track layout... it never caused problems in the original, but it seems that it doesnt work with cargodest :P
17:20:57 <joepie91> thanks for the help anyway :P
17:21:04 <OwenS> Sacro: With a truly international name :p
17:21:15 <joepie91> about the banks.... iceland is the only seriously failing bank
17:21:35 <joepie91> in the netherlands we also had Fortis, but that wasn't a Dutch bank; it's from Belgium :)
17:21:41 <Prof_Frink> Iceland's not a bank, it's a supermarket.
17:22:03 <joepie91> ON SALE NOW: Banks.. buy 2 get one free!
17:22:06 * OwenS notes that his bank was recently taken over :p
17:22:25 <thingwath> Iceland... it's a bird, it's a plane... no, it's a supermarket!
17:22:46 * fjb has some money on a swiss bank. :-(
17:23:00 <edeca> Just have no money, works for me
17:23:03 <OwenS> Isn't Iceland's debt something like 400% of GDP?
17:24:21 <Rubidium> according to Wikipedia RBS paid £10bn for (part of ABN) and had to write off more than £20bn on that acquisition... sounds to me like they've lost at least £10bn on it... now who's silly?
17:25:56 <thingwath> Arise, ye starvelings from your slumbers... :o)
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17:34:08 <joepie91> erm, one more question... if you run a (dedicated) multiplayer server with the cargodest build, is cargodest enabled by default? or do i need to enable it in some way?
17:42:07 <dihedral> joepie91, have a look at your config file!
17:42:24 <dihedral> if you want to run a dedicated server, you should not find too much of an issue in reading that file
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17:47:32 <Belugas> I do customer-service, you do customer-service... no... LIES, I'M the only one who does it during weekend !
17:47:58 <glx> even worse, it's sunday :)
17:48:50 <thingwath> how is sunday different?
17:49:23 <Belugas> indeed... sunday, saturday... all the smae, lately :S
17:49:40 <Belugas> and whjat's more, i was about to enjoy our new netbook :(
17:49:48 <Belugas> nice leetle macihe...
17:50:26 <thingwath> I'm enjoying my beer. :-)
17:54:07 <Belugas> how i wish you were here
17:54:28 <Belugas> swimming in afish bowl
17:55:00 <thingwath> I still have about 400 ml of happiness. :o)
17:55:53 <edeca> petern: Get drunk then, free temporary happiness!
17:56:19 <dihedral> i would not mind getting to know your world edeca
17:56:19 <petern> how can i get drunk if i have none?
17:58:43 <edeca> dihedral: You've never make potato alcohol? :)
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17:58:50 <edeca> Heh, I hadn't considered the cost of the actual alcohol. Darn.
17:58:58 * edeca accepts the hole in his plan
18:00:25 *** valhalla1w is now known as valhallasw
18:15:45 <Belugas> better than a whole in his pants!
18:17:31 <Sacro> that's more of a verbal pun
18:17:32 <bandi_zz> did the standard engine stats change lately?
18:17:56 <bandi_zz> I feel my engines much less capable in my new game
18:18:23 <bandi_zz> or maybe I just played too much with maglev
18:18:39 <bandi_zz> these A4 engines feel crappier
18:21:39 <bandi_zz> I'm playing from the trunk
18:22:08 <dihedral> edeca, and where do the potatoes come from? mama buys them for ya?
18:22:14 <glx> realistic acceleration changed lately
18:23:19 <dihedral> to the BelugasAlgorithm, for extra non-realistic feeling
18:23:29 <bandi_zz> did you change the gravity constant?
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18:30:20 <DorpsGek> Darkvater: I have not seen cel.
18:30:28 <Darkvater> geeh, no tab completion :P
18:30:28 <Belugas> and my support session is OVER!!! you hou!!!!
18:30:31 <DorpsGek> Darkvater: celestar was last seen in #openttd 14 hours, 36 minutes, and 4 seconds ago: * Celestar thinks the mozilla devs should be executed for setting the default download location to the desktop
18:30:48 <Belugas> hello Darkvater, bye Darkvater ;)
18:31:04 <Darkvater> glx: any luck with the new freetype library? I see the new nightly still is not AA-enabled
18:33:15 <Darkvater> ah, good glx, now I need to bug Rubidium to add these libs to thenightlies :)
18:33:34 <glx> we were waiting for you to confirm it works correctly :)
18:33:46 <glx> and Rubidium is eating right now
18:33:54 <OwenS> petern: Can you send some of your coldness my PC's way? :P
18:34:29 <Darkvater> glx: so what am I supposed to test?
18:34:35 <petern> gravity constant? haha
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18:35:03 <glx> Darkvater: compile openttd with these libs and see if AA is correct
18:35:20 <Darkvater> meh.. you guys are evil :)
18:35:31 <Darkvater> I have to login as admin and make backups
18:36:02 <glx> the we can publish the updated openttd-useful package
18:36:55 <Darkvater> btw, what's the thing with the map-edge transform? it's greyed out for me on genmap
18:37:20 <glx> enable it in advanced settings
18:37:34 <joepie91> erm, does anybody know of any currently operating cargodest server?
18:37:47 <joepie91> where there are actual people playing
18:38:07 <petern> is there one listed in the in-game server list?
18:38:30 <joepie91> i found one from openttdcoop, but its paused and inactive
18:38:39 <joepie91> and Jezeku's server or w/e but it seems kinda abandoned
18:38:45 <joepie91> plus it needs a lot of newgrfs -_-
18:39:13 <joepie91> which are not from a pack
18:39:49 <Darkvater> glx: why does it need to be enabled?
18:40:52 <Darkvater> heh, how does openttd build if I don't have libicu anywhere :O
18:40:55 <glx> ask Yexo, it's his feature
18:41:38 <Darkvater> you guys should sync about this stuff :)
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18:42:41 <Darkvater> glx: no, something esle :). on my HD
18:43:27 <glx> you don't have openttd-useful 2.0 ?
18:43:50 <Darkvater> hmm, it seems I do cause it links.../me searches
18:44:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> Darkvater: the ability to disable it is because sometimes maps cannot be converted (the top left and top right row of water gets converted to void tiles)
18:44:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> the question is why it is not default on...
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18:45:14 <dihedral> joepie91, openttdcoop server will run if you have at least 2 people in the game
18:45:25 <Darkvater> "unresolved external symbol _CLSID_DirectMusicLoader"
18:45:51 <Eddi|zuHause> wrong version of the DX SDK?
18:46:02 <Darkvater> yes, but it worked a few days ago
18:46:07 <el_en> wrong operating system?
18:46:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r15309 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt: -Fix (r15307): Update regression. (Thanks glx)
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18:47:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r15310 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files): (log message trimmed)
18:47:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-02-01 18:46:42
18:47:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 1 fixed by arnaullv (1)
18:47:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 1 fixed, 6 changed by Hadez (7)
18:47:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 fixed by jpx_ (1)
18:47:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 fixed by glx (1)
18:47:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 1 fixed, 4 changed by planetmaker (5)
18:47:36 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: TrueBrain's commit messages sounded funnier ;)
18:48:04 <planetmaker> serious business :P
18:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> really, you should grep the NoAI logs for "regression" and "project" ;)
18:48:59 <Darkvater> ok, I'll just disable dm for now
18:50:01 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: 'project' is more common from me after TB commit :)
18:50:49 <Darkvater> is it just me or does compiling take forever now? :(
18:50:57 <Darkvater> it seems I'm back on my 1GHz machine
18:50:58 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: I guess with not doing it once I am not yet worthy enough to join the tomato club
18:51:27 <frosch123> Darkvater: SmatZ is the expert for compile time
18:51:51 <Darkvater> hell, it's not even release mode
18:57:13 <planetmaker> there was afaik a steep rise in compile time with NoAI inclusion
18:58:54 <joepie91> [offtopic] YAY my cargodest server is running :) and it's actually working :P [/offtopic
18:59:11 * edeca throws rocks at joepie91 for failing to close tags properly
19:00:36 <SmatZ> Darkvater: noai merge increased compile time by ~25%
19:00:56 <edeca> SmatZ: It was already slow for me, so a few more minutes doesn't matter :)
19:01:06 <glx> SmatZ: inaccurate, you upgraded your system at the same time ;)
19:02:00 <OwenS> Suggestion: Do multiple compilations in parallel if you don't already :p
19:02:09 <Zuu> 11->15 minutes was my change when NoAI got into trunk. So more like 45-50% :)
19:02:16 <planetmaker> that should be default... OwenS
19:02:28 <Zuu> If I remember the numbers correct now, many days has gone since then now... :D
19:03:22 <SmatZ> I really don't understand why it takes that long time for you :(
19:04:37 <OwenS> Generally takes 2 mins tops for me to do a full build, GCC 4.3.2, Athlon X2 4600+...
19:04:48 <planetmaker> let's check what's timing on my machine...
19:06:08 <energetic> I am not sure it is a feature though :)
19:06:10 <planetmaker> that's a statement
19:07:17 <energetic> err... network probs website?
19:08:03 <energetic> my own netowrk maybe
19:08:08 <OwenS> 3s configure, 1m26s make -j3
19:09:05 <SmatZ> but I had everything in ccache :-P
19:10:31 <Wolf01> 25s configure, 15m and some seconds to make everything
19:10:55 <SmatZ> real 1m12.423s (without ccache)
19:11:05 <petern> i don't know what i get
19:11:17 <petern> before noai i got around 18s for a full debug compile
19:11:21 <thingwath> how to turn of ccache for a single build?
19:11:52 <planetmaker> core2duo @ 2GHz (Macbook)
19:11:52 <SmatZ> ./configure --with-ccache CFLAGS="-march=barcelona -s -fmerge-all-constants -pipe" --enable-assert
19:13:30 <OwenS> I suppose I could have done -march=k8 if I wanted :p
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19:15:23 <OwenS> Well, if I really wanted, -march=k8 -O3 -funroll-loops and so on :p
19:15:59 *** Brianett1 is now known as Brianetta
19:16:06 <thingwath> 3 minutes for a complete build, that's fine
19:16:33 <Brianetta> Anybody got Andel's new website's URL?
19:16:48 <Eddi|zuHause> what's an Andel?
19:17:36 *** mortal` has joined #openttd
19:18:07 <Brianetta> Got it: www.lund-conlon.co.uk
19:18:18 *** Mortal is now known as Guest48
19:18:18 *** mortal` is now known as Mortal
19:19:27 <Darkvater> glx: libraries are good, work both on 2005/2008
19:19:33 <Darkvater> so what's the deal here?
19:19:59 <Darkvater> MSVC2005 compile time 1m09s, MSVC2008 compile time 3m46s
19:20:04 <Darkvater> debug mode both of them
19:20:38 <Eddi|zuHause> my system is an Athlon 2000 or something...
19:21:36 <OwenS> I would have said whole program optimization, but it's a debug build
19:21:57 <Darkvater> OwenS: I'm not stupid :)
19:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> 64 bit takes twice as long to compile. makes sense :p
19:23:27 <Darkvater> Rubidium: unless 2008 builds 32 AND 64 at the same time..but that would be very stupid
19:25:47 <Rubidium> lovely... who's idea was it to make font names translateable? Now Windows might (under some circumstances) return the translated font name and freetype then doesn't know that font as it expects the untranslated font name
19:27:09 <SmatZ> Darkvater: sorry :( I have no idea
19:28:25 <Darkvater> hmm 2008 release mode doesn't link?
19:28:46 <Darkvater> unresolved std::exception
19:29:13 <Rubidium> sounds like your MSVC2008 install is quite broken
19:29:49 <Darkvater> but glx: the libs are good
19:33:32 <Roujin> SmatZ: got my patch to compile under gcc yesterday?
19:35:36 <Roest> oops shouldn't scroll up and think i reply to a current comment
19:36:03 <SmatZ> Roujin: works for me :)
19:36:42 <Roujin> and, got any comments?
19:37:18 <Roujin> well, no comment means everything is working, so that's fine hehe :D
19:38:19 <SmatZ> Roujin: filtering for "w" or "d" shows "LumberMill PS" in the contents window - why?
19:38:46 <Roujin> because one of its tags starts with w or d.. if not, it's a bug
19:39:31 <SmatZ> I expected it to filter by name :)
19:39:41 <Roujin> it filters for tags, not for names ;) but the filter callback function could easily be changed to do something else e.g. filter by name
19:39:53 <Roujin> or even, both name and tags
19:41:16 <Roujin> or one could define any number of filtering functions, and include a drop down somewhere in the window to select between them
19:42:53 <Roujin> this should also be nice for vehicle purchase windows
19:43:10 <Roujin> which are crowded when using big and/or multiple vehicle grfs
19:43:42 <Roujin> I know there also was a patch for this already (I think)
19:48:07 <petern> why does the vehicle group gui use icons...
19:48:14 <Darkvater> hmm do you guys think there is some way to dramatically reduce startup time?
19:48:28 <Rubidium> remove all your NewGRFs ;)
19:48:33 <dihedral> compiletime would be way nicer :-P
19:48:39 <Darkvater> I have quite a few grf files in the openttd directory and on every launch the pc is busy for at least 10/15s parsing all of time
19:48:54 <Darkvater> I wonder if some cache ala the old spritecache might help
19:49:11 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Commit by tron :: r2833 /trunk (3 files) (2005-08-07 17:52:41 UTC)
19:49:12 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Remove saving of sprite cache data:
19:49:13 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: the benefits are questionable, it's error prone, undocumented and hasn't been widely used for ages, if ever
19:49:19 <Prof_Frink> Darkvater: Nah, just add a splash screen
19:49:46 <dihedral> Prof_Frink, nice one
19:49:56 <petern> that cache is irrelevant
19:50:15 <Roest> wow takes 1sec for me with the coop grf pack
19:50:18 <petern> you need an md5sum, action 8 and 'network safety' cache
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19:50:29 <petern> if it's a debug build it takes time
19:50:43 <petern> if it's release build it just depends on disk cache, heh
19:50:57 <Darkvater> I'll have to check what is actually being used from those grfs but some database with md5sums and the scanned action X's should probably work
19:51:05 <Darkvater> ey; too slow again petern :P
19:51:08 <Rubidium> 10-15 seconds? That sounds like the startup time of a debuglevel 3 binary in valgrind with lots of NewGRFs on my 1.6 GHz 4 year old laptop ;)
19:51:23 <Darkvater> it's a laptop that it takes so long on
19:51:30 <Darkvater> it's about 5s on my desktop machine
19:51:32 <petern> it's disk access slowing it
19:52:46 <OwenS> Perhaps add support for grf.gz? :p
19:53:09 <OwenS> zlib's gzip wrappers are super easy to use anyway, so it's mostly a matter of s/f/gz/ :p
19:53:41 <Darkvater> okay I gotta reinstall windows soon
19:53:42 <petern> our file access is abstracted anyway
19:54:02 <OwenS> In that case you could also add support for grf.bz2 :p
19:54:08 <OwenS> And tar.gz and tar.bz2 ;-)
19:54:11 <Darkvater> either way why 2005 is about 3.5x faster than 2008 is a mistery to me
19:56:17 <George> What value should return CB 2D to get dark blue AND green for 2CC vehicle?
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19:58:17 <petern> first colour + second colour * 16
20:00:28 <frosch123> plus offset read using action D
20:02:29 <George> First colour = dark blue (no change), second color = dark green (NO CHANGE)
20:03:06 <George> Im not sure what color is the second CC is mapped to
20:03:18 <Roujin_> anyone else interested in my filtering for GUILists patch? :)
20:05:38 <SmatZ> Roujin_: + void SetFilterType(uint8 n_type)
20:05:52 <SmatZ> I think assigning is just fine :)
20:05:54 <frosch123> dark green is number 6, darg blue is number 0, the offset is not constant
20:05:58 <SmatZ> no need to verify it differs ;)
20:06:35 <George> frosch123: Not constant? And what should I do?
20:07:58 <SmatZ> - * @param l The sport conditions we want to use
20:08:20 <Roujin_> SmatZ: whoops, that came from C&Ping SetSortType
20:09:10 <SmatZ> Roujin_: + void SetFilterState(bool state)
20:09:10 <Roujin_> yep, it says "sport type" in trunk. ^^
20:09:39 <SmatZ> err nothing, not nicely possible
20:10:02 <Roujin_> SmatZ: that's also a direct copy of SetListing
20:11:34 <Rubidium> Darkvater: the new openttd-useful is on the website and I've just updated the CF, so from tomorrow it should use the new libraries
20:23:21 <George> frosch123: and after I reead patchvar 11 to param 08 for example to access it with var 7F, how can I tell that the result is CB 2D result? It looks a bit stupid to make a test for 4000h possible values and returning the result C000h+value.
20:24:25 <frosch123> George: when you specify zero cases in the varaction2, it will return the computed result
20:24:41 <frosch123> alternatively you can also use action6
20:26:46 <George> I understand the solution with action 6, but what did you mean with the first solution?
20:30:12 <George> what should i put instead of xx xx?
20:30:53 <frosch123> "Since 2.0.1 alpha 57, nvar=0 is a special case. Instead of using ranges, nvar=0 means that the result of an advanced calculation (or, if no calculation is performed, the adjusted variable value itself) is returned as callback result, with bit 15 set. This is useful for those callbacks where many different return values are possible and it is easier to calculate them than list them in ranges. The default value must still be specified,
20:30:53 <frosch123> and will be used in case the variable(s) used are not available."
20:32:35 <frosch123> wrt. the default value, I guess it is never used in ottd, just return C000h
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20:33:28 <George> thank you, I'll make a try
20:35:59 <Roujin> SmatZ: should I change the things you mentioned in my patch and make a new version?
20:36:26 <SmatZ> Roujin: I think it is not needed :)
20:39:32 <George> frosch123: Thank you, this works
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20:40:25 <Roujin__> wow, now I already have two underscores
20:40:40 <frosch123> George: what is the \2* for ?
20:40:59 <NeCKeL> Hi there... I've start a server... BRasuKas server... IP 189.4.116.188:3979
20:41:41 <George> frosch123: [22:58:27] <@petern> first colour + second colour * 16 > this _*16_ is \2* 1a 20 10 00
20:42:18 <NeCKeL> Someone from Brasil or Portugal
20:43:09 <frosch123> George: but advanced actions do not follow 'multiply before add'
20:43:25 <frosch123> you coded (6 + var8) * 16 + 7
20:44:23 *** Roujin__ is now known as Roujin
20:44:30 <frosch123> I would have expected 6 * 16 + 7 + var8
20:44:44 <frosch123> if var8 is the result from actionD
20:45:07 <frosch123> though of course you could just do '0x67 + var8'
20:45:32 <George> do you mean 2CC (var8 here) olaso affects CC?
20:45:46 <OwenS> Mmmh... I love the smell of laser printers in the... evening?
20:46:08 <frosch123> actionD returns the spritenumber of the first 2CC recolour sprite (darkblue & darkblue)
20:46:26 <Roujin> dihedral: what's funny there?
20:46:37 <frosch123> the other 2CC colours follow this first sprite
20:46:55 <dihedral> Roujin, auto-downloading newgrfs (rejected)
20:47:09 <OwenS> And I hate it when I forget to open the paper output tray, and everything falls off into the feed tray... where it gets used as input -_-
20:47:19 <Roujin> well, that one actually means auto-downloading newgrfs from the server one is connecting to
20:47:27 <Roujin> which was indeed rejected
20:48:32 <George> frosch123: does first 307h becomes changed or there two tables? (in patchvar 11 and in 307h)
20:48:59 <George> frosch123: you made me confused
20:49:29 <frosch123> 307h is constant as it is from trg1r
20:50:00 <frosch123> but the 307h block only contains 16 colors (1CC)
20:51:11 <frosch123> or do you want to disable recolouring?
20:51:43 <frosch123> then you can just return C307h
20:52:58 <George> yes, but I want to disable recolouring of BOTH the CC and 2CC
20:53:32 <frosch123> yes, just return 8307h in that case
20:53:52 <frosch123> "Since mapping 775 doesn't change any colours, you can return it to disable the company colours and leave all magic blue in your sprite alone."
20:54:50 <George> magic blue is fine but GREEN for 2CC becomes changed to 2CC of my company (purple)
20:55:57 <frosch123> 307h does also not change magic green
21:02:49 <George> Did not work in R15235, but I've downloaded R15310 and it works fine.
21:03:46 <frosch123> @openttd commit 15286
21:03:46 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Commit by frosch :: r15286 /trunk/src (3 files) (2009-01-27 19:44:36 UTC)
21:03:47 <DorpsGek> frosch123: -Fix: Refitting did not invalidate vehicle-colour-maps of road-vehicles, ships and aircraft, as well vehicle-length of road-vehicles.
21:04:16 <frosch123> impressive, the callback exists for years, and in one week it is encountered by three :p
21:04:47 <George> Then, what should I return if I want CC be used from the company, and 2CC not applied (while the veh property defines it as 2CC vehicle)
21:06:04 <frosch123> var43 player info specifies the company colour
21:06:26 <George> you mean I need to calculate it
21:06:28 <frosch123> you have to add that to 307h
21:06:49 <frosch123> I guess calculating is the easiest way
21:06:58 <George> Well, and if I want CC be not applied and change 2CC only?
21:07:32 <frosch123> easiest would be, if you draw the sprite using CC, and read 2CC from var43
21:07:52 <frosch123> else you have to do again the actionD thingie
21:10:48 <George> Thank you frosch123. Now I have to go to sleep, but I hope to test this tomorrow evening.
21:11:22 <frosch123> good, I also should go to sleep, but dinner is still missing :/
21:17:02 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> impressive, the callback exists for years, and in one week it is encountered by three :p <- Uwe, Pikka and George?
21:19:43 <frosch123> yes, I guess those three :)
21:34:40 <Darkvater> Rubidium: great, thanks :D
21:35:28 <Darkvater> petern: I'll look into this cache time permitting :)
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22:11:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r15311 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix (r15126): Obiwan error
22:12:47 <Prof_Frink> Turning off your lightsabre when fighting a dark lord of the sith?
22:22:23 <el_en> curious that Yoda is only Master and not a PhD.
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22:24:31 <Prof_Frink> And we know that the Doctor will always beat the Master.
22:25:28 <thingwath> and Darth Vader was an associate professor?
22:32:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r15312 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): (log message trimmed)
22:32:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Handle closing of drop down menus when clicking in a window in a
22:32:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: single place, instead of in the OnClick event for some windows. This
22:32:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: standardises behaviour so that clicking anywhere in a window will close its drop
22:32:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: down menu, which happened before for some windows but not all. In addition the
22:32:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dubious feature of hiding a drop down menu by opening the same menu has been
22:32:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: removed. This only caused wasted CPU cycles as a whole new list was generated
22:32:57 <petern> OpenTTD: and then destroyed. Breathe.
22:35:50 <petern> microsoft have created an installer that automatically unpacks temporary files to my I: drive
22:36:03 <petern> I: is a linux partition
22:36:38 <Rubidium> Microsoft's installers are generally stupid anyway
22:36:47 <Rubidium> and not standardised at all
22:37:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what ever happened to the TEMP dir?
22:38:48 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: probably they got bug reports about the installer unpacking itself causing the "HDD almost full"-popup with the cleanup tool that clears the temp directory
22:42:02 <Eddi|zuHause> windows users report bugs?
22:42:06 <Rubidium> like the directx 7 sdk installer: winzip self extractor which extracts some windows extractor tool which extracts the installer which then extracts (and installs) some data files
22:42:49 <glx> and leave all extracted stuff in temp
22:43:34 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: whenever I'm testing something on Windows and I get crashes I send a report to MS (even when it's a segfault in my own code); if they care to spawn that window they want to have something to work on
22:48:54 <petern> yes, that I: drive has the most space on it
22:49:48 <glx> why does it see your linux partition ?
22:50:09 <glx> they don't have drive letter on my install
22:50:12 <Prof_Frink> windows ext2/3 fs driver
22:50:38 <petern> which doesn't support the same set of attributes as fat/ntfs
22:50:47 <petern> hence the installer failed to work
23:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause> el_en: if you mean "metre", yes, many french-derived words are written with "-re" in BE, and "-er" in AE
23:18:10 <el_en> surely i know about -re vs. unitedstatesian -er.
23:21:12 <Eddi|zuHause> what about the genitive?
23:22:48 <el_en> is it typical to refer to city districts like that?
23:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you didn't ask about "typical"
23:23:20 <thingwath> you asked whether it is valid, not typical :)
23:23:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but not the other way round
23:23:58 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, neither
23:24:28 <el_en> i'm having a descriptive rather than prescriptive approach to what is valid.
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23:26:30 <el_en> well, what about, are there any spanish words where 'll' is pronounced as /ll/ and not /j/?
23:27:21 <smeding> i figure there might be in instances where the syllable boundary is in between the Ls
23:27:25 <smeding> apart from that i have no clue
23:27:54 <el_en> in catalan there are, but they use a · to express that. e.g. "Paral·lel" (a subway station in Barcelona).
23:28:46 <Eddi|zuHause> el_en: i have never encountered those
23:29:45 <el_en> m'kay, i don't remember hearing about such either.
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