IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-01-31
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00:01:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: solution is easy, remove the bus and train service :p
00:02:51 <Elukka> so is there no way at all to get this scenario to work on other versions?
00:03:12 <Zuu> I shall keep that trick in mind to increase usage rate of roads, when I start work as a traffic planer when I have finished my studies. :-p
00:04:07 <Zuu> Elukka: Not without good knowledge about the savegame format and a hexeditor plus lot of time.
00:04:31 <Elukka> so basically its useless and i wasted a lot of effort
00:04:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: or the copy-paste patch might work ;)
00:04:56 <Zuu> You can play it on that specific cargodest devrsion.
00:05:02 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: great idea :)
00:05:14 <Elukka> i wont be playing this particular revision forever
00:05:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: pattern not found.
00:06:17 <Elukka> why does it save things particular to one version in the scenario file/save game?
00:06:47 <SmatZ> in what format should it save the game then?
00:07:17 <SmatZ> if you want 0.4.8 savegame format, create it in OTTD 0.4.8 :-p
00:07:30 <Elukka> i mean, why is something that amounts to just a map with trees, terrain and buildings particular to any version?
00:07:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: backwards compatibility is only maintained for official releases and nightlies, not branches or inofficial builds
00:07:47 <Elukka> this doesnt have forwards compatibility either
00:08:04 <Elukka> i'm just confused as to why having cargodest matters
00:08:16 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want forward-compatible savegames, play TTDPatch
00:08:22 <Rubidium> cargodest adds a few settings to the game
00:08:53 <Zuu> Including changes to the savegame format
00:20:00 <el_en> ah, Sternenteile is Star bits in english.
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00:37:22 * Sacro has quad core and a 9800GTX+ in preperation
00:39:49 <rortom> thats the same machine i developed RoR with :p
00:40:45 <Sacro> rortom: what new features? :D
00:40:52 * Sacro loves to break the pysics
00:42:01 <Rubidium> that doesn't say much about the amount of 'data'
00:42:25 <rortom> i knew that would come from you ;)
00:42:44 <rortom> let me search a changelog ...
00:45:16 <rortom> also, i saw some people publish code under creativecommons.org licenses
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00:45:56 <Rubidium> trunk has ~8 major features, ~75 features and ~50 significant (for 0.6 users) bugfixes since the 0.6 release
00:46:07 <Rubidium> that's ofcourse speaking of OpenTTD
00:46:35 <rortom> how you track those? flyspray?
00:47:43 <rortom> ah, thats what i am currently going through ...
00:48:50 <Rubidium> forgot to mention the 3000 commits ;)
00:50:32 <rortom> we are currently at 1873
00:50:48 <rortom> but we tend to merge well cooked features in a large commit
00:54:12 <Rubidium> rortom: you shouldn't say that you're going to release in X weeks as the chances are quite high you won't make it
00:54:43 <Rubidium> just release it when it's done and when people least expect it ;)
00:56:45 * Rubidium personally dislikes the concept of roadmaps too. It only makes people think a feature will be in and then they get disappointed when it doesn't make it
00:59:58 <rortom> Rubidium: we are done with coding, we are just waiting for the content :)
01:02:01 * Rubidium is happy we don't have to wait for the NewGRF authors
01:08:32 <rortom> writing changelogs is no fun :\
01:17:35 <rortom> svn logs contain too much info in our case ;)
01:23:39 <rortom> just got my traffic warning, used 906 GB / 1TB this month.
01:25:51 <rortom> i am really glad we have some mirrors
01:26:20 <rortom> we couldnt do the 4234 GB all in all by ourself
01:26:49 <rortom> (btw, someone has spare traffic?) ;)
01:30:07 <rortom> btw, how much downloads does openttd have per months?
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01:43:08 <rortom> searched that, thanks :)
02:02:30 <TinoDidriksen> rortom, spare traffic for what?
02:12:24 <Eddi|zuHause> why are there more win32 downloads than all other targets together?
02:13:06 <kd5pbo> There are more windows users?
02:13:17 <kd5pbo> Are there more Windows users?
02:13:22 <TinoDidriksen> Of course there are.
02:13:39 <Eddi|zuHause> more users there are windows?
02:40:22 <fjb> Non windows users checkout from svn. :-)
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02:43:43 <Sacro> I sometimes use svn, sometimes grab a tar.bz2
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05:33:23 <Vish> is there someone who can help me
05:33:56 <Aali> not unless you tell us what the problem is
05:34:49 <Vish> well i got openttd and it was working fine..... i was just fiddling with the resolutions and other settings.....
05:35:34 <Vish> so i must have maybe chosen a lower resolution or something so now the program is runnign witht the music and everything bu ti can see nothing
05:35:50 <Vish> no mouse pointer or anything....the screen is grey
05:36:12 <Vish> i uninstalled the program and reloaded it again but the same proble
05:36:57 <Aali> the config file is stored in your My Documents folder
05:37:25 <Aali> if you delete it, it should work again
05:37:58 <Aali> the My Documents folder or the config file?
05:38:52 <Vish> oh man ... u are a genius... it works
05:39:12 <Vish> i found it and deleted openttd in my docs and now the program works
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07:12:25 * dihedral has traffic spare....
07:21:46 <Eddi|zuHause> torrents were invented for such problems
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07:39:25 <grahamk> I was trying to install openTTD through the package manager in ubuntu but received an error message telling me that I needed the original TTD game files. Is this the case? and if so how would I obtain the files? I dont think TTD has been produced for quite some time
07:39:53 <Aali> well, technically, you can use OpenGFX
07:40:13 <Aali> so you're better off with the original graphics
07:40:33 <grahamk> is there anywhere i can get them?
07:40:49 <Aali> and well, if you look for them, you'll find them
07:41:10 <Eddi|zuHause> if you build it, he will come
07:44:10 <grahamk> hmmm... i think I might have found them :)
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07:53:22 <doc> I'm trying to set up suspended monorail. (to replace tram) but it always comes up as disabled. Anyone got any idea why?
07:53:28 <dihedral> is there no such info in ... say ... /usr/share/docs/openttd?
07:56:03 <dihedral> doc: are you missing some grf's?
07:56:59 <doc> dihedral: I don't think I should be. I used the download online content interface
07:57:49 <dihedral> well, there surely is info in the forums or on the grf's webpage?
08:00:21 <Eddi|zuHause> suspended monorail is a tram replacement, sure you looked in the right place, and have the appropriate vehicles?
08:02:06 <doc> Eddi|zuHause: I used the 'check online content' part of the initial openttd menu
08:02:11 <doc> so if it's wrong, it's wrong there
08:04:57 <dihedral> doc: it does not mean that all required dependencies are in the online content!
08:05:15 <dihedral> grfs can have dependencies to other grfs and some might come from different authors
08:05:30 <doc> and there's no dependency setup even for the ones you can download?
08:05:58 <dihedral> yes, but if the one author does not upload his stuff, then that's missing, and one cannot define a dependency to missing grfs
08:06:22 <dihedral> whats the name of the grf?
08:09:31 <dihedral> do you have any other tram grfs loaded? and what year is it?
08:10:26 <doc> I've unloaded them, and I've tried everything from 1990 to 2200
08:13:56 <dihedral> and the grf is loaded for your game
08:15:49 <dihedral> and it sais why it's disabled
08:15:56 <dihedral> why dont you say that right away?
08:16:09 <dihedral> Fatal:Unexpected sprite.
08:17:12 <dihedral> perhaps you want to post that to the forum thread
08:17:36 <doc> I said I was getting the same error as the post
08:18:55 <dihedral> just bump it, say that you are also getting it
08:19:19 <doc> so giving me hassle for not saying it is unfair
08:19:24 <dihedral> thought that it would had been fixed before it got uploaded to the bananas thingy
08:26:07 <dihedral> Rubidium, can you hide "Urban Suspended Monorail" from bananas? it's got an error and gets disabled (Fatal: Unexpected sprite.)
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09:13:35 <planetmaker> dihedral: if it stays the author has more incentive to fix it :P
09:14:11 <dihedral> if it's broken it should not be downloadable!
09:14:56 <dihedral> because it's broken?
09:15:03 <dihedral> and rises user questions
09:15:06 <petern> 118 * 91,. 0C "Sprites for autoroad GUI; no way "
09:15:06 <petern> ,... "to code them yet, included for potential "
09:15:06 <petern> ,... "future versions" 00
09:15:06 <petern> 119 sprites/susmon.pcx 258 792 09 13 20 0 4
09:15:41 <planetmaker> dihedral: why should broken things not be available? There might be people who want to fix it...
09:16:03 <dihedral> pm: via the content downloader?
09:16:10 <dihedral> seriously - that is really silly!
09:16:27 <planetmaker> so is the proposal to play newgrf correctness police
09:16:49 <dihedral> pm: the proposal is to avoid user confusion!
09:17:26 <dihedral> what the point would it be to download an osx update if it made your system unstable?
09:17:30 <planetmaker> I don't like to think for other people. And I don't want others to try for me
09:18:00 <dihedral> users will ask questions if they can download content via that feature and it does not work
09:18:08 <planetmaker> dihedral: exactly. So why stop people from doing nonsense, if they like
09:18:16 <dihedral> to avoid unnessesary stuff like that, you can hide them until they are fixed
09:18:23 <dihedral> besides, bananas is well watched anyway
09:18:30 <planetmaker> yes. they will. It's the grf author who needs to be directed to.
09:18:48 <dihedral> those who manage bananas and the author
09:19:05 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the aim is to reduce "support" effort
09:19:08 <dihedral> but those who download from bananas will most likely assume things they get from there work
09:19:18 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I understand that :)
09:19:27 <Eddi|zuHause> and repeatedly telling "it is broken, do not use" is extremely high and useless effort
09:19:30 <planetmaker> And I see the point in that.
09:19:45 <dihedral> then there is no 'and still'
09:19:52 <dihedral> they can fix it by getting it from the forums
09:20:15 <dihedral> those really interested in working on grf's dont get them from bananas
09:20:28 <dihedral> they just go 'bananas' trying to make the grf's :-D
09:20:31 <Rubidium> so contact the author directly instead of getting questions why it's missing from bananas
09:20:48 <Rubidium> after all... we don't guarantee anything works
09:22:11 <dihedral> so you are saying you dont maintain bananas?
09:22:35 <Rubidium> we're not going to fix everything that's broken and put up there
09:22:47 <dihedral> i did never say 'fix'
09:22:56 <dihedral> i said 'hide' so that others cannot download it
09:22:59 <Rubidium> removing it doesn't fix anything
09:23:06 <dihedral> (unless they know the id...)
09:23:36 <dihedral> unnessesary questions
09:23:48 <Rubidium> heh, I've got this savegame and downloaded X and X doesn't work
09:24:53 <dihedral> shame - i thought you were more interested in maintaining the downloadable content of bananas
09:25:18 <dihedral> maintain in a way that would cause less problems
09:25:52 <Rubidium> "cause less trouble" means fixing bugs ourselves
09:26:13 <Rubidium> hmm.. maybe we should remove opengfx and ecs too
09:26:17 <dihedral> that is not what i mean and you know that
09:26:18 <planetmaker> dih certainly is right that you could just disable broken content.
09:26:37 <planetmaker> but still, I think, it's rather a grf author's responsibility
09:26:54 <dihedral> Rubidium, bugs != gets disabled on load
09:26:55 <planetmaker> and maybe an annual or bi-annual check
09:27:08 <Rubidium> I could disable broken stuff, but what is buggy and what isn't?
09:27:26 <petern> at least disabled on load fairly obviously won't cause game problems
09:27:46 <dihedral> Rubidium, Fatal: Unexpected sprite. and then being disabled - i consider that fairly useless, dont you?
09:27:47 <petern> say if LV4 was on there, would we have to disable it because of graphical clitches in tunnels?
09:28:13 <petern> bananas is about providing content, not providing working content :D
09:28:17 <dihedral> petern: it does not rise user support does it now
09:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> not in the latest release
09:45:36 <Tefad> the number 11 seems arbitrary to me
09:46:00 <planetmaker> read the code, understand network packet sizes and you'll understand :)
09:46:32 <planetmaker> in short: 11 players * player_info_size <= max_network_packet_size
09:46:42 <planetmaker> or something along those lines
09:56:54 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 131.943
09:57:07 <planetmaker> I can make you a special edition with 131 max, Tefad :P
10:04:28 <Tefad> eh, try (exp(ln(2)*5)+exp(ln(2)*3)+2)*ln(-1)/sqrt(-1) instead. thanks.
10:05:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see why it wouldn't do that, except for the periodicity(?) of complex ln
10:06:20 <Tefad> the answer to that isn't integral, but it is real
10:07:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. it is common knowledge that ln(-1) can be calculated via the "world formula": e^(i*pi)+1=0
10:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> so the i's reduce themselves
10:08:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but still, ln(-1) is not one single number, but infinitely many
10:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> similarly, sqrt(-1) is two numbers
10:08:41 <Tefad> infintely many in the frequency domain but of zero magnitude
10:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i^2 = -1, (-i)^2 = -1, so sqrt(-1) = {i, -i}
10:09:44 <Tefad> depends on what i mean by sqrt()
10:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause> similarly, e^(2*pi*i)=1, so ln(-1) = {(2*k+1)*pi*i | k \in |Z}
10:11:05 <Tefad> if anyone is familiar with the Unix bc command they'll know its exponent function only takes integral values, however its e-exponential function e() takes floating point
10:11:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so ln(-1)/sqrt(-1) = {(2*k+1)*pi | k \in |Z}
10:12:08 <Tefad> i learned to exploit this to get any power of any base i want via a ^ b = e(l(a)*b)
10:12:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that is basic maths...
10:12:41 <Eddi|zuHause> for certain definitions of "basic" :p
10:12:45 <Tefad> but it'd been a while and i had no reference material so i dicked around until i found it
10:13:11 <Tefad> belonging to the integral domain
10:13:45 <Eddi|zuHause> nah... algebraic numbers are great fun ;)
10:14:36 <Eddi|zuHause> then add e and pi as special constants, and you can express almost all relevant numbers
10:15:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and you are still in a countable subset of |C
10:16:41 <Eddi|zuHause> (Algebraic numbers are those numbers who can be represented as a root of a polynomial expression)
10:17:18 <Eddi|zuHause> as such, i is an algebraic number, because it is root of the polynomial expression x^2+1=0
10:18:16 <Eddi|zuHause> e and pi are not algebraic numbers
10:18:41 <Eddi|zuHause> they are called "transcendent"
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10:28:48 <Tefad> transcendental functions
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11:07:01 <dihedral> Tefad, client names used to be in one of the UDP packets
11:07:35 <dihedral> more than 11 clients would exceed packet size
11:07:44 <dihedral> this part of the udp packet has been removed in the mean time
11:08:00 <dihedral> remember wwottdgd events?
11:08:18 <dihedral> we would do 55 clients, but it meant that we had to disable that part in the udp code
11:08:42 <dihedral> else the game crashed - which was the painful experience for wwottdgd/1
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12:32:19 <Noldo> dihedral: you got that patch through then?
12:33:05 <dihedral> more clients is not by me
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12:48:47 <Gekz> spotify doesnt even WORK in Australia
12:49:58 <el_en> well of course it doesn't, 'cause you're using it upside-down.
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13:44:56 <Elukka> to ensure compatibility with other versions (future trunk, really), what should i make them with?
13:45:02 <Elukka> the latest nightly, the stable version?
13:45:33 <Aali> newer versions always load older savegames
13:45:56 <Aali> older versions newer load newer savegames
13:46:33 <Rubidium> Aali: both are wrong
13:46:56 <Rubidium> newer stables load older stables
13:47:45 <Rubidium> the rest is just wishfull thinking; yes most nightlies load previous nightlies, but not always
13:47:47 <Aali> that nay be all you can be sure of
13:49:07 <Elukka> so i should make them with the newest stable+
13:50:23 <frosch123> make a heightmap :p
13:51:12 <Elukka> heightmap doesnt contain the rivers, lakes have to be fixed a lot, not to even mention cities, roads and industries
13:55:04 <Eddi|zuHause> it's really an oversight that heightmaps were not prepared for non-height information coded into the palette
13:55:06 <petern> if you wanted to use the 'freeform edges' feature you'd need to use a nightly
13:55:16 <petern> Eddi|zuHause, write a patch!
13:56:11 <Eddi|zuHause> or, an .ini file with stuff like town locations
13:56:25 <Elukka> a version-proof format for scenarios would be really cool...
13:57:03 <Rubidium> Elukka: use the TTD scenari editor
13:57:19 <petern> it can't be version proof
13:57:27 <Elukka> ok, reasonably version proof
13:58:35 <Eddi|zuHause> is there an "export as heightmap" functionality in the scenario editor?
13:59:34 <petern> Eddi|zuHause, write a patch!
13:59:45 <Elukka> i made a scenario yesterday, but because i made it with the cargodest branch i cant play it on any other version
13:59:53 <Elukka> even though cargodest doesnt do anything regarding scenarios
14:00:13 <Rubidium> settings are part of the scenario
14:00:25 <Rubidium> and thus are the cargodest related settings
14:00:46 <Eddi|zuHause> an alternate storage system was also discussed since the beginning of time...
14:01:05 <Aali> a "scenario" is really just a savegame
14:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause> mainly, it would need to save (name,value) pairs
14:02:15 <Elukka> i just dont really understand why
14:02:33 <Rubidium> 2 save formats == twice the work
14:02:48 <Eddi|zuHause> if that were implemented, many savegame bumps (especially of inofficial patches) could be avoided
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14:03:12 <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: what about when a setting changes name?
14:03:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: you are screwed
14:03:30 <Elukka> i can appreciat it would be more work
14:03:36 <Elukka> man, i suck at typing today
14:03:54 <dihedral> no... just "you suck"
14:03:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: if you want to introduce a conversion function, it will require a version bump
14:04:44 <Aali> so, basically you use the same system, just separate settings from the actual savegame?
14:05:11 <Elukka> it seems weird to save settings of patches in the scenario, because they dont really have anything to do with it
14:05:13 <Eddi|zuHause> no... you are reading stuff into it...
14:05:15 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: almost all settings that get added to the savegame change the savegame format slightly too, i.e. adding stuff that it didn't know about before. So loading that savegame in an older version must not be done, so the savegame bump doesn't matter anyways
14:05:28 <dihedral> Elukka, scenario = save game
14:05:47 <dihedral> now, assume you have a save game, where you alloed 90 degree turnes and you built according to that
14:05:55 <petern> please bear in mind it is possible to have a scenario that starts with competitors already set up... stations, vehicles, etc...
14:06:04 <Elukka> thing is, why is it the same thing?
14:06:19 <dihedral> and then you load that save game with previously having set 90 degre turns forbidden
14:06:21 <Elukka> there are no 90 degree turns or cargodest things in the scenario, they only apply when you start to play
14:06:48 <Elukka> i understand if you use something like the map edges patch
14:06:50 <dihedral> they apply to the save game
14:07:29 <dihedral> that in fact now only applies to map generation iirc
14:07:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but there is an economy, even though there are no industries yet. the available cargos and cargo payment rates and other stuff have already been set up
14:07:39 <Aali> Elukka: a separate scenario format is alot of work, and no-one wants to do it, so unless you're going to write a patch and maintain it forever and ever you'll just have to learn to live with it :P
14:07:52 <Eddi|zuHause> this stuff, that generally happens at world generation, must be stored in the scenario
14:08:05 <Eddi|zuHause> no matter if you actually used it or not
14:10:21 <petern> Eddi|zuHause: "varaction2 support for bridges"
14:10:43 <petern> should i rumble through my 'lost patches' directory? :p
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14:12:13 <dihedral> Rubidium, can authors disable their own grf's at bananas?
14:13:31 <Rubidium> yes; just set the works till version X correctly
14:13:52 <Rubidium> effectively disables them to be shown from newer version of OpenTTD
14:14:03 <Elukka> so the reason is that its a lot of work
14:14:06 <Elukka> thats a sensible reason
14:17:18 <Elukka> i might try another scenario, this time of just the great lakes
14:17:31 <Elukka> the srtm plugin in the guide doesnt work, so i have no idea where to get one
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14:17:42 <dihedral> can you not start a chat with /dev/null?
14:18:33 <Elukka> i'm wondering whether it's just me or if the service doesnt exist anymore
14:19:18 <Eddi|zuHause> an rtfm plugin? where can i get one of those?
14:19:38 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, requirest tracker?
14:20:06 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: next to the stfu plugin?
14:21:28 <Elukka> dihedral, have you tried it?
14:22:05 <dihedral> worcester college of oxford university used to use it, i dont know if they still do
14:22:21 <frosch123> hmm, if something is buggy and inconsistent in ottd, and it is even more buggy and inconsistent in ttdp, should I then just set up my own interpretation of the newgrf specs...
14:23:00 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: honestly, that reads like an april's fools version :p
14:23:17 <dihedral> but it's a serious thing
14:23:22 <dihedral> not so nice to work with
14:23:28 <dihedral> not so nice to set up
14:23:38 <dihedral> rt was a real pain up my fuzzy rear end
14:23:53 <dihedral> rtfm was not as simple as i had assumed either
14:24:34 <petern> frosch123: more inconsistent in ttdp?
14:24:55 <frosch123> yes, and more buggy
14:25:02 <Elukka> ...am i the only one here who deals with heightmaps?
14:25:23 <petern> are you on the engine id thing still?
14:25:39 <petern> possibly, Elukka, i've never loaded one
14:26:20 <frosch123> no, now I am on CB15, CB36 'capacity', 'use first refittable cargo as default cargo' and traditional capacity mulitpliers for refitting when not using cb15
14:26:56 <frosch123> wrt. the engine id thingie, I guess it is all fine, the change should be documented for var60, and well varc6 was never documented
14:27:00 <dihedral> Elukka, why dont you just open threads in the forums
14:27:22 <Elukka> i feel worse pestering the forums than irc for some reason :P
14:28:06 <dihedral> dont you have a poisonous reptile you could play with?
14:28:36 <frosch123> they should use livery refit instead of var c6 if they want reliable behaviour :p
14:28:42 <Elukka> nah, it's not poisonous and it's sleeping
14:28:59 <dihedral> then talk to that thing instead!
14:29:05 <Elukka> i cant interrupt his sleep!
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14:29:54 <Rubidium> that sounds really improbably
14:31:19 <Rubidium> putting it on a flat surface and hitting it with a frying pan should interrupt its sleep
14:32:10 <dihedral> Rubidium, i'd rather but Elukka on a flat surface and hit him with a frying pan
14:32:29 <Elukka> that wouldn't be very nice
14:32:57 <dihedral> none of my last 10 lines were very nice
14:33:03 <dihedral> have you piked up on that yet
14:34:02 <Elukka> fear, for i will send this after you
14:35:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought frying pans are for handling orcs?
14:35:27 <Elukka> he doesn't like water that much...
14:35:32 <Eddi|zuHause> english grammar is difficult
14:36:17 <Eddi|zuHause> try cleaning out the terrarium, i don't think that boots and plastic bags are supposed to be in there
14:36:49 <Elukka> naturally they live in southeastern asia, although this one is from sweden and i'm from finland
14:36:54 <Rubidium> Elukka: tihiaiti iisi jiuisiti aididiiinigi ii'si eivieiriyiwihieiriei... ;)
14:37:21 <Eddi|zuHause> you forgot the äääs ;)
14:37:46 <Eddi|zuHause> finnish is made up to 50% of ä ;)
14:38:18 <thingwath> down with the vowels
14:40:42 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i was just googeling for "häufigkeit von buchstaben finnisch", and klicked on a link there, and google tells me that this site is probably infected by malware...
14:41:36 <thingwath> (ah, it's czech, sorry)
14:41:47 <valhalla1w> good to know its a global problem :P
14:44:41 <Eddi|zuHause> "i'm feeling lucky" today :p
14:45:10 <valhalla1w> its just that the links are broken :P
14:45:11 <De_Ghosty> maybe it's the server cluster i'm conencting to
14:45:13 <Roest> Results 1 - 10 of 33.100.000 for is google broke
14:45:13 <thingwath> only it has finally realised how dangerous the internet is.
14:45:47 <Elukka> it says everything has malware
14:46:04 <De_Ghosty> that's what u get for worknig with ms
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14:49:56 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i can't find statistics for finnish... anyway, more than every 6th letter in german is "e" (english: every 8th)
14:52:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and every 2500th letter is a "y" (english: every 50th)
14:53:10 <thingwath> there had to be some reason for the qwertz nonsense
14:53:47 <Eddi|zuHause> less common than the "y" are only "x" and "q"
14:54:17 <Rubidium> even looks like that Google's malware diagnostics/faq servers are in denial
14:55:55 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i needed many tries before getting an actual page
15:03:47 <Eddi|zuHause> hm.. i'm pretty sure i have seen a statistics over the average word length, but i can't find it
15:14:06 <Zr40> what does it take to get patches into svn?
15:16:25 <Zr40> you have to have access for that though
15:20:10 <Zr40> well, I mean, what does it take for someone to commit a patch? :)
15:21:34 <Eddi|zuHause> a review, testing, documentation (not necessarily in this order)
15:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and another bribe
15:23:38 <Zr40> what kind of reviews, tests and documentation?
15:25:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd file that under bribe ;)
15:29:22 <Zr40> well, I've got this nice patch that works nicely
15:29:58 <Zr40> not even a complicated change
15:30:18 <Zr40> but it's just sitting there in bugs.openttd.org since 2006
15:33:15 <Rubidium> then it's probably not that trivial/uncontroversial as you say it is
15:33:52 <Zr40> it's just not as complex as, say, the one frosch123 linked :)
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15:39:15 <Aali> better yet, just upload one to the FS task
15:39:48 <Aali> anyway, that thing makes the finances window (which is already quite large) into a monster window
15:40:30 <petern> the patch is still as ugly as it ever was. sorry.
15:40:34 <Aali> and I don't really see the benefit, you can easily work that out in your head
15:40:51 <Aali> not to mention the calculations are wrong in that screenshot :P
15:41:17 <Zr40> that's been fixed years ago :)
15:41:53 <Zr40> care to elaborate, petern?
15:42:25 <Aali> huge block of code with mostly identical lines? yeah that is nasty
15:43:06 <Zr40> indeed. But I can't use a nice loop because the order doesn't match
15:43:46 * petern has a go at reworking it somewhat
15:44:14 <Zr40> just found a bug caused by manually applying the old one
15:47:55 <Zr40> ok, I've uploaded the new patch
15:53:41 <Zr40> well, Aali, about the size, I don't think that's avoidable
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15:54:02 <Zr40> the font could perhaps be made smaller, but that would make it an unreadable mess of numbers imho
15:54:16 <Celestar> edeca: you around? :)
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16:00:29 <Celestar> vmware workstation segfaults
16:03:38 <Elukka> hmm... i ought to try a finnish trainset
16:04:06 <Elukka> i dont have any grf related skills, but those can be acquired
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16:32:54 <Rubidium> did you know this game is usually played with o and x and in a 3x3 field? ;)
16:38:02 <petern> Zr40: ^ loops are not the evil you make out in the fs comments...
16:41:59 <Celestar> where's edeca when you need him?
16:42:20 <Rubidium> there where you're when he needs you
16:42:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Edeka is 2 roads around the corner
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16:47:48 <dihedral> Celestar, nice to see you here again, how are you?
16:53:50 <dihedral> well.. not so well :-P
16:56:02 <Celestar> vmware workstation seems to be a pita
16:56:14 <dihedral> had a fever of 39.5 degrees centegrad yesterday
17:10:44 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Celestar
17:20:17 <Celestar> from the win7 download site:
17:20:18 <Celestar> You'll need some technical skills, like knowing how to:
17:20:20 <Celestar> Burn an ISO file to make an install DVD (A good example of what we mean by “technical”)
17:22:18 <frosch123> "(A good example of what we mean by “technical”)" <- is that from the site, or did you added that?
17:24:20 <thingwath> isn't it technical skill? if not, then what? artistic? :)
17:25:56 <Rubidium> frosch123: sounds like a nice reduction of code (unification) to me
17:26:41 <Rubidium> as in cooking or going to the edeka (or competitor)
17:26:54 <frosch123> hehe, the most lucky part of it is, that it is so broken/inconsistent that we do not really have to stay compatible with anything before :)
17:28:25 <frosch123> as in taking some flour, eggs and milk and but the stuff in a pan (not all at once)
17:29:02 <Celestar> I _hate_ recovery CDs
17:29:08 <Rubidium> sounds like making pancakes ;)
17:29:29 <Forked> recovery CDs only recover all the crapware they push on you when you buy a new pre-installed computer :)
17:29:49 <Celestar> and that you, in a vain effort, tried to remove after switching it off the first time
17:30:02 * Celestar is glad he bought his new laptop without software (=
17:30:18 <Forked> first thing I do when I get my hands on a new computer is reinstall it...
17:30:21 * Rubidium doesn't really care about the software on a new laptop
17:30:46 <Celestar> Rubidium: well, not. unless it causes the comp to take 2 minutes to boot
17:30:48 <Rubidium> first thing is inserting the UTP cable in and boot from network to install Linux
17:30:59 <thingwath> without software as in "with freedos" or really without anything?
17:31:32 <Celestar> thingwath: unpartitioned HDD
17:31:49 <thingwath> huh, who sells that?
17:32:00 <Celestar> via the academic program
17:32:24 <Celestar> well, it costs 100 EUR less than with VB/XPPro
17:32:41 <Celestar> but now I seem to have misplaced my XP CD :P
17:35:27 <Elukka> just to make sure: if i do a scenario with the latest stable, will it be usable on future versions?
17:35:51 <dihedral> read what you were told you earlier
17:36:15 <Celestar> VMware workstation apparently supports CPU hotplug
17:36:29 <Celestar> I wonder what the guest-XP sais if I "unplug" one of the CPUs?
17:36:52 <Celestar> yeah. nothing anymore ...
17:37:31 * Rubidium expected a: your hardware changed, please reactivate Windows
17:37:50 <Eddi|zuHause> <Celestar> but now I seem to have misplaced my XP CD :P <- you find it on TPB then :p
17:38:32 <dihedral> Rubidium, only as of 3 components, no?
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17:42:22 <Celestar> theoretically, if I download that but still have a valid Key/license ...
17:42:40 <Celestar> Rubidium: because TPB are ThinkPad Button for me :P
17:42:55 <SmatZ> software piracy? in my #openttd ?
17:42:56 <Forked> the copy is not illegal as long as you have a license is it? Consider it as backup of your lost cd
17:43:14 <Forked> however sharing it probably is
17:43:23 <Rubidium> SmatZ: downloading it is legal in the NL
17:43:27 <Wolf01> no, the backup should be made with your own cd or it is illegal
17:44:17 * Rubidium doesn't know whether using it once downloaded is legal though
17:44:23 <Wolf01> but the question is: and when the seller doesn't provide you the cd but only the factory restore dvd?
17:44:50 <Rubidium> but then, the EULA is fairly pointless in Europe too
17:45:05 <Wolf01> the EULA is not valid in many countries
17:45:22 <SmatZ> Wolf01: I downloaded CD image in case I had valid CD key (but I didn't receive the CD) ... well, it was friend's computer
17:45:38 <SmatZ> valid CD key = that stupid sticked with CD key
17:46:06 <Forked> even if the key it valid doesn't automaticly mean you own the license though? :p
17:46:14 <Rubidium> download: to transfer (as data or files) from a usually large computer to the memory of another device (as a smaller computer)
17:46:55 <thingwath> Wolf01: without valid licence you can't use the software :)
17:47:06 <Rubidium> now what IF I see the CD/DVD player as the 'large computer' and the HDD the 'large computer'... is installing illegal? It's downloading after all
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17:47:29 <Forked> Rubidium: what if it's a network install? :)
17:47:52 <Rubidium> after all, my CD player's bigger than my HDD and data gets passed directly between them using DMA
17:47:53 <Celestar_> Forked: I haven't _lost_ my CD. it's on my office desk :P
17:48:00 <SmatZ> I would consider a server that fits in 1U rack to be smaller than my computer
17:48:23 <petern> i've never seen a 1U rack
17:48:56 <Celestar_> well, but you have seen 1U servers, aven't you?
17:49:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: yes, copying from CD to HDD is illegal, unless permitted by the license
17:49:35 <SmatZ> I failed in transforming my thoughts to English words :-p
17:49:52 * Rubidium always thought those 1U things were the pizza boxes of the admins ;)
17:49:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but copying from CD to RAM (temporarily) in order to execute is not (according to german copyright laws)
17:50:34 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: what if the only way to see the license is by copying it first?
17:51:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the word of the german copyright is something like: "temporary copies for technical reasons are permitted without license"
17:52:08 <Wolf01> like "I want to try it... for a year or.. five"
17:52:13 <Celestar_> we have a download service of microsoft products for the uni :)
17:52:18 *** Celestar_ is now known as Celestar
17:52:32 <Rubidium> then you need to hurry
17:52:52 <Rubidium> activation (for me) requires calling MS
17:53:10 <Wolf01> Celestar, I want to mess up your roadstops (in case you didn't know it already) do you have any short term projects for them?
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17:53:30 <Rubidium> Celestar: are you sure? It's the experience I've got from using MSDN AA
17:53:31 <Celestar> Wolf01: yes, but I'm not working on them. you wanna fix DTRS?
17:53:42 <Celestar> Rubidium: yes, it depends on the site apparently.
17:53:59 <Roest> Rubidium: i can activate my msdnaa windows just normally over the net
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17:54:07 <thingwath> I was able to activate MSDNAA XP without calling anywhere.
17:54:22 <Wolf01> Celestar, no, I'm only trying to add them the graphics for the slopes, since I already made possible to build stations on slopes
17:54:34 <Celestar> Wolf01: that should work out just fine
17:54:35 * Rubidium slaps the person responisble for that then
17:54:37 <Eddi|zuHause> you may make temporary copies if they are an integral part of an otherwise legal use
17:55:02 <Eddi|zuHause> or if you are just mediating between other parties in a network
17:55:22 <Celestar> at uni, windows is cheaper than SLES :(
17:55:26 <Eddi|zuHause> meaning you can legally run proxy servers ;)
17:56:13 <Roest> which reminds me i have to get everything from msdnaa before i leave the uni next month ^^
17:56:32 <Celestar> does anyone run XP 64bit btw? does it WORK?
17:56:38 <thingwath> msdnaa software is limited to noncommercial use, I think
17:56:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r15298 /trunk/src/company_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2588]: don't start another AI company in MP when there are too many companies
17:56:51 <Celestar> thingwath: my laptop is noncommercial.
17:56:56 <Celestar> since I use XP only for gaming.
17:57:00 <Celestar> which is noncommecrial :P
17:57:33 <Celestar> now, if I would take part in some world championships, which offer prize money, is that non-commercial?
17:57:48 <Eddi|zuHause> when does "commercial" start?
17:58:11 <Eddi|zuHause> if you write a diploma thesis, and a company pays you during that time?
17:58:15 <Rubidium> if it would be your job, then I'd say yes. In any other case: food for a judge
17:58:33 <Celestar> I've got to head out a bit. dinner time
17:59:06 <Rubidium> heading out for dinner sounds like a sound plan
18:02:30 <Eddi|zuHause> if i overview the copyright correctly, the easiest plan to legally download movies is to get a doctor to attest you a disability of going into cinemas ;)
18:03:05 <Aali> and be allergic to DVDs?
18:09:40 <Zr40> petern, could you add your rewrite of my patch to FS?
18:12:33 <frosch123> interesting request, I would have expected a different one :p
18:13:02 <Eddi|zuHause> "could you commit [...]" :p
18:21:40 *** bandi_zz-sleeps is now known as bandi_zz
18:33:48 <dihedral> Rubidium, does it sound like a semi good idea if server admins could specify whether joining clients only join existing companies / spectators, and that way force them to start new companies once they have connected?
18:34:19 <dihedral> would decrease the number of people who join + create a company, and leave as soon as they see the map or some of the settings etc.
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18:34:52 <dihedral> rephrase - would decrease the number of unused companies created by clients joining and leaving after seeing the map / some of the settings
18:39:48 <Elukka> they get declared bankrupt because of loan interest eventually, but it takes time
18:41:17 <dihedral> Elukka, that aint the point
18:41:33 <dihedral> there is a feature that allows clients to move between companies in the game
18:41:44 <dihedral> and lets them create new ones if they are a spectator
18:42:24 <dihedral> and now that the feature exists, it would perhaps be useful if clients could be made to join as spectator and continue from there
18:42:25 <Eddi|zuHause> means force people to join as spectator, and then create a company if the map/settings/players suit them
18:43:29 <petern> dihedral, .patch or it, er, never happened.
18:43:49 <dihedral> or perhaps also allow them to join already existing companies
18:44:03 <Aali> I was just going to say that
18:44:11 <dihedral> petern, the move thing is already included
18:44:16 <petern> remove "New company" and "Spectate game" and merge them to "Join game"
18:44:23 <dihedral> my question is rather is it interesting
18:44:40 <petern> and "Join game" does the same as what "Spectate game" did
18:44:49 <dihedral> petern: either that, or allow admins to set their servers up individually
18:45:17 <dihedral> i.e. let them chose if it's possible to create company upon join
18:47:10 <petern> "dihedral, .patch or it, er, never happened."
18:47:41 <dihedral> i will write it if you guys think it's worth it
18:48:37 <petern> only problem i forsee is people joining unpassworded companies instead of spectating
18:49:08 <petern> that's what would happen if you did it the way i suggested
18:49:22 <dihedral> it can happen either way
18:49:47 <Aali> thats not really a problem though, is it?
18:50:08 <dihedral> well, some people (esp on stable games) have fun in destroying games for others
18:50:17 <Aali> doesn't really matter if they're spectating or not as long as they don't start useless companies
18:50:27 <dihedral> they join unprotected companies and waste their money on flooding the map
18:51:16 <Aali> I guess it could get confusing for new players though, spectate tends to imply that you wont be participating in any way
18:51:34 <Aali> so they'll join an existing company instead, which hides the new company button
18:52:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why petern's suggestion was to rename the button
18:52:47 <Aali> however, if the only thing you can do is spectate, they'll join and ask for help
18:53:14 <Aali> perhaps only allow directly joining passworded companies as another option?
18:53:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the join message can say "you are currently a spectator, to create a company [...]"
18:54:24 <Aali> well, the ask for help part is a good thing, I've got no problem with that
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18:57:19 <dihedral> welcome message is set by the server
19:00:07 <Aali> I think you should go with a setting with 4 options; new clients can do anything (same as it is now), new clients can join any company, new clients can join passworded and new clients can spectate only
19:00:41 <Aali> that should cover most people's needs :)
19:01:28 <Rubidium> what's the use for 'join any company'?
19:01:44 <Rubidium> and does that imply ignoring passwords?
19:02:23 <frosch123> I guess he did not meant 'join a random company'
19:03:10 <dihedral> join any random company, even if it's pw protected :-P
19:03:21 <Aali> some people might want to run servers where companies are "free-for-all" (no passwords) and still not allow random clients to create useless companies
19:03:34 <Aali> yeah, thats exactly what I meant :P
19:12:34 <Rubidium> dihedral: you've got OSX, right? If so, can you reproduce FS#2585?
19:14:32 <frosch123> Sacro: be careful, you might be forced into OSX maintance-slavery
19:14:58 <Rubidium> yeah, lets assign Sacro to FS#1140
19:15:03 <Sacro> frosch123: I can't even compile it
19:18:13 <Rubidium> then add the cacert root certificate ;)
19:18:28 * Sacro tries to figure out what he's doing
19:19:06 <Rubidium> we don't fancy paying several hundreds of dollars a year for a SSL certificate that's supported by all major browsers OOTB
19:19:41 *** Celestar1 has joined #openttd
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19:21:41 <petern> still too much when cacert is available
19:21:43 <Rubidium> petern: not for the kind of certificate we use
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19:27:55 <dihedral> Rubidium, i have no issues with 15297
19:29:13 <dihedral> appart from when the game is windowed but maximised, and i move the mouse down to the hidden dock and back into the game (after the dock appeared), then i have the default osx mouse on top of the openttd mouse, and i can get rid of the osx mouse my very quickly moving the mouse back down to the dock and back up again
19:29:32 <dihedral> but that has been the case for a long time now
19:29:45 <dihedral> fullscreen: no issues at all
19:30:01 <dihedral> and i have a few more apps open than just itunes :-P
19:30:28 <dihedral> though i must add, i have 10.4
19:30:35 <dihedral> the bug report might very well be for 10.5
19:30:38 <Rubidium> so it's kinda confirmed; you can get the osx mouse
19:30:59 <dihedral> i can get the os x mouse
19:31:05 <dihedral> but not in full screen
19:31:09 <petern> 19:29 < dihedral> but that has been the case for a long time now
19:31:14 <petern> IT'S NICE THAT PEOPLE REPORT BUGS ISN'T IT
19:32:11 <dihedral> i told bjarni a few times, just never wrote a bug report
19:33:08 <dihedral> however, i get a nasty mouse behaviour if i am in window mode and the window is smaller than the screen
19:33:19 <dihedral> then the openttd mouse and the osx mouse are at different locations
19:33:21 <Sacro> dihedral: i see that bug
19:33:27 <dihedral> and move simultaneously :-)
19:33:44 <dihedral> what i mentioned or what the fs report mentiones
19:36:19 <Sacro> hmmm, I see that fs bug
19:37:36 <Sacro> I seem to scroll off randomly
19:37:43 <Sacro> what is the required result?
19:38:33 <Rubidium> Sacro: talking about FS#1140? Then I've got absolutely no clue. I'd say ask Bjarni :(
19:39:17 <Sacro> Rubidium: i think he's dead or something
19:39:21 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 1 day, 0 hours, 10 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <Bjarni> hi Wolf01
19:40:34 <Rubidium> Sacro: so is the OSX port
19:42:08 <dihedral> Rubidium, can you make a change at bugs please? when specifiying os x, perhaps let them (the reporters) choose from 10.3.9 10.4 and 10.5?
19:42:44 <Sacro> I don't know OSX coding
19:43:15 <Rubidium> dihedral: that'd mean a lot of work maintaining an enormous list of different versions of OSX, Windows etc.
19:43:45 <Rubidium> (can't specify versions per OS)
19:43:52 <Sacro> Rubidium: hmm, well yes
19:44:13 <Sacro> OSX panther, osx tiger and osx leopard
19:45:04 <dihedral> Rubidium, you dont have to maintain all of them, it just makes it easier when trying to reproduce
19:45:21 <dihedral> if it's 10.5 and the bug does not exist for me, then what can i do to fix it?
19:47:23 <Rubidium> people should just mention the exact version in the details
19:47:34 <Sacro> Rubidium: well we could drop support for 10.3
19:47:46 <Rubidium> Sacro: I rather drop support for 10.5
19:47:46 <Sacro> lets face it, it's a well old version
19:48:40 <dihedral> Sacro: why drop 10.3 now, as long as their are no issues with 10.3?
19:50:02 <Rubidium> 10.3 and 10.4 run faster than 10.5 intel (with a specific GPU driver)
19:51:10 <dihedral> depends on the model of the intel mac :-P
19:51:27 <dihedral> and on the model of the ppc mac
19:51:39 <Roest> hmm would it be possible that scenarios use the KI settings from the main menu, meaning which ones too load?
19:51:44 <Rubidium> dihedral: it actually depends on the GPU driver
19:52:51 <Rubidium> only for new scenarios
19:53:44 <Roest> that's saved with the scenario?
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19:54:16 <Roest> could thta be overwritten by loading one into the editor and saving again?
19:55:15 <Rubidium> as that would mean breaking any settings made before in the scenario
19:55:54 <Rubidium> it'd also mean some conversion functions (when switching settings) aren't ran making the scenario invalid
19:56:19 <Roest> so in order to play an old scenario with a certain AI i have to delete all the others
19:56:50 <Rubidium> you can't configure them in-game?
19:57:13 <Roest> either i'm blind or i really can't
19:57:31 <Rubidium> ask Yexo about that ;)
19:59:10 <Rubidium> otherwise you can start an ai using start_ai <name> from the in-game console
20:16:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r15299 /trunk/src/ (225 files in 13 dirs): -Cleanup: remove many redundant includes
20:30:29 <Prof_Frink> Wow, that host's shoutier than KCOM.COM
20:32:09 <dihedral> yes, i know .edu, just never seen anyone here with that
20:33:25 <dihedral> sm is no orientation of yours, is it?
20:33:43 <Rubidium> on a saturday afternoon 'round tea time being at school?
20:34:22 <petern> tea time? bit early for that
20:35:06 <Rubidium> well, he still has to commute to a proper place to drink tea ;)
20:35:14 <dihedral> any time is tea time
20:40:00 <RS-SM> I have my tea here, in the library, my TTD ready, and I'm good
20:40:08 <RS-SM> and wait, are you all English?
20:45:39 <RS-SM> Grandfather came from one of your colonies
20:45:39 <petern> OH MY GOD WE HAVE A CRITICAL SITUATION IN THE PETERN HOUSEHOLD
20:46:01 <petern> Prof_Frink is a winner
20:47:10 <petern> i could open the wine...
20:47:35 <Rubidium> ... the wisky's already opened
20:50:36 <Rubidium> ... the brewery is next door, they're still open and sell to end users
20:51:12 <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: Install a pipeline!
20:52:23 <Sacro> we are making a brewery here
20:52:27 <Elukka> make a complicated miniature railway beer transportation network instead
20:52:32 <Elukka> much awesomer than pipelines
20:53:26 <Prof_Frink> Nah, having a set of pumps in the kitchen would be better.
21:01:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15300 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: remove an unused icon and remove the references to swedish forgotten in r6358.
21:02:52 <Eddi|zuHause> @openttd commit 6358
21:02:52 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by Darkvater :: r6358 trunk/ottdres.rc (2006-09-03 16:02:15 UTC)
21:02:53 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Codechange: update resource file to reflect development tree (0.5.0.0) as file
21:02:54 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: version, and added revision number. Also remove SWEDISH resources.
21:10:11 <el_en> what sort of SWEDISH resources?
21:14:16 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like the stuff that gets displayed in windows when you click on file properties
21:15:16 <glx> just remember who started openttd :)
21:16:47 *** Celestar has joined #openttd
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21:27:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r15301 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Feature [FS#104]: Add option to group and subtotal expenses list in the company finance window. Concept from Zr40.
21:33:01 <Belugas> strange is your language
21:33:05 <Belugas> and i have no decoder
21:33:20 <Belugas> what don't you make your intentions clear?
21:33:27 *** masdaskl has joined #openttd
21:34:17 <masdaskl> hello.. i have a question.. is openttd always going to require the original TTD data
21:34:22 <Belugas> i've got nothing to say
21:34:40 <petern> until somebody makes a replacement sample.cat ...
21:34:45 <Elukka> not once opengfx is done, i think
21:34:51 <petern> incidentally, i should finish my catcodec...
21:35:07 <masdaskl> so.. is it in developement or still concept
21:35:09 <petern> so far it extracts to .wav files (except the corrupt one, heh)
21:35:30 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
21:35:36 <Belugas> masdaskl, search for opengfx on the forums :)
21:35:38 <petern> replacement data has always been possible. we're not making it though.
21:37:19 <masdaskl> is it a goal to move away from the copyrighted material so openTTD can be distributed freely
21:38:43 <Sacro> any manouvre from point a to point b makes point b a goal
21:41:12 <Belugas> masdaskl, why do you think about it?
21:42:41 <masdaskl> Belugas: about what?
21:43:04 <Belugas> about your question...
21:44:40 <masdaskl> i would hope that was the goal.. but petern stated that the openttd wasnt developing the openGFX .. so i thought id ask
21:47:01 <el_en> masdaskl: it's questionable whether the opengfx would be considered not to be a derivative of the original graphics.
21:47:27 <masdaskl> i dont undestand what your saying..
21:47:55 <masdaskl> to close to the original copyrighted artwork... ?? is that what your saying?
21:48:29 <el_en> yes, it is quite close.
21:48:48 <masdaskl> so.. it may be to close to a copyright infringement to use ?
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21:49:48 <masdaskl> is the plan to dev new GFX work.. or to rework the current openGFX
21:50:48 <petern> the developers have no plans for that because none of them are artists
21:51:12 <Belugas> hey... that's so not true!!
21:51:17 <masdaskl> i ask because i was looking at playing the game.. but i dont own a copy of ttd
21:51:20 <Belugas> I'm a great guitarist!
21:51:34 <petern> you can play with opengfx, but it's not made by the developers
21:52:18 <masdaskl> future official support ?
21:52:43 <el_en> i think any new graphics that is created will always be quite close to the original graphics, as long as the graphics needs to be exactly the same size as originally, and have same purpose.
21:53:17 <Belugas> mmh... could be, maybe not... let say the game will support alternative base gfx
21:53:18 <masdaskl> thats what i was pondering.. figured they needed to be the same dimension
21:53:24 <petern> the developers provided the ability to use non-original graphics more easily
21:53:49 <petern> just a different set of people work on opengfx
21:53:50 <Belugas> that's waht i wanted to say, but i did it not as brilliantly :S
21:53:53 <masdaskl> do any of yall use the openGFX.. or do yall own the org ttd
21:54:16 <petern> i own a copy of ttd myself
21:54:24 <el_en> what's the license of openGFX?
21:54:33 <petern> i think they settled on gpl
21:54:52 <masdaskl> what would you of chose ?
21:55:01 <Sacro> cos then you have the whole 'what format' issue
21:55:03 <el_en> hmm, then someone could actually package openttd with opengfx in some distro.
21:55:33 <petern> most likely is an opengfx package, and make openttd depend on it
21:55:56 <Sacro> openttd-data or something
21:56:03 <petern> Sacro, shut up, all the license considerations were taken on the forums already
21:56:09 <petern> and no, cc-by-sa-nc is not suitable
21:56:18 <Sacro> but then with banana you don't need to include them
21:56:32 <Sacro> petern: I think LGPL would be better
21:56:53 <el_en> what about the copyright-free midi music that Sacro found?
21:57:36 <petern> who plays with the music on? :p
21:58:14 <el_en> i do, on mac. on linux the music won't play.
21:59:39 <Belugas> yall? what the heck does yall mean???
22:00:26 <Belugas> oh... ok... and why didn't you wrote it as such in the beginning?? :P
22:00:47 <Belugas> let me guess... you are american?
22:01:34 <el_en> Belugas is from Canada, where they have a 20-hour clock.
22:02:12 <masdaskl> 21 hour clock really?
22:02:46 <Belugas> and Obama is thinking about using it, in order to boost productivity
22:02:48 <masdaskl> looking now for some info..
22:03:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that the bird is the word
22:04:16 <masdaskl> i cant find any info on a 21 hour clock on google or wikipedia
22:04:47 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's the opposite of the 28 hour day
22:05:14 <Belugas> yeah... only maericans are still under the 24 hours rule
22:05:29 <masdaskl> says that only qubec use a 12 hour clock
22:05:31 <Belugas> americans... not maericans
22:05:55 <masdaskl> qubec doesnt use the 12 hour clock
22:06:24 <Belugas> indeed not, we're using the 21 one :)
22:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you know, 28 hour days mean you have 6 days per week
22:06:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and 21 hours per day, means you have 8 days per week
22:06:57 <masdaskl> Belugas: do you have a link.. for more info
22:07:06 <petern> thailand has a 6 hour clock
22:07:28 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, they have insanely long weeks
22:07:59 *** Phoenix_the_II has quit IRC
22:08:14 <Belugas> well... i could send you a photo of my watch, but i'm heavily in debugging stuff for work :P
22:08:15 <el_en> an hour of canadian time has 65 american minutes.
22:09:25 <masdaskl> never heard of such.. hows the economy
22:09:59 <petern> at least the bankers can afford their bonuses
22:11:03 <masdaskl> IMO our economy is about to go down the drain
22:11:16 <masdaskl> crime is .. outrageous right now..
22:11:22 <masdaskl> no one is working and people cant pay there bills
22:12:16 <petern> # laaaaaaaaa la laaa, la la
22:13:24 <petern> Sacro: they're thereing their theirs :o
22:14:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it's weird how the native speakers are always the ones who write worst
22:14:13 <Sacro> petern: don't fear the repear?
22:14:23 <Rubidium> petern: the intro of the third Symphony of Nelson?
22:14:27 <el_en> over their people can't pay they're bills, their poor
22:14:28 <petern> Sacro knows of last.fm
22:14:28 <masdaskl> spell check and typing lingo have killed my spelling..
22:14:36 <masdaskl> not to mention the growing spanglish ..
22:14:59 <masdaskl> spanish and english mixed
22:15:04 * el_en has heard of spanglish before
22:15:23 <Eddi|zuHause> we only have denglisch hier
22:15:37 <Eddi|zuHause> ice cream, you scream?
22:15:41 <petern> avez vouz heardez mon farts?
22:16:14 <petern> si senior < spanglish :D
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22:16:42 <Mortal> el_en, that description screams rickroll to me
22:17:01 <masdaskl> so.. who thinks the US pulls out of iraq and deploys massive troops to afgan
22:17:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never understood this "rickroll" thing...
22:17:42 <xerxesdaphat> I think they should deploy massive Uhl Mail Vans to Truninghill
22:17:45 <el_en> i've never seen this "rickroll" thing, and i think i'm happy this way
22:18:01 <davis_> barackroll > rickroll anyway
22:18:57 <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of which... i need something to eat
22:19:37 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: sausageroll > breadroll
22:19:58 <petern> except if it has gristle
22:21:00 <Eddi|zuHause> how do i have to imagine a sausageroll?
22:21:28 <Sacro> how do you make a swissroll?
22:21:39 <Eddi|zuHause> what's a swissroll?
22:22:28 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: you know nothing
22:22:38 <Elukka> the great oracle of wiki knows everything, though
22:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i do know stuff... but not under their foreignish names
22:23:20 <el_en> i'm not going to click on any of those links.
22:23:52 <Sacro> hmm, is this el_en the same as the old ln?
22:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> no, he's the new and improved el_en!
22:24:53 <Eddi|zuHause> now with longer nick!
22:25:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and with English Only!
22:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but! more e violates the english rules
22:27:21 <Eddi|zuHause> only 12,7% of all letters may be "e"s
22:30:27 <el_en> over all text ever written in english?
22:30:59 <thingwath> are non-ascii characters possible in irc nicknames?
22:31:19 <Eddi|zuHause> The license agreement from Sun for JDK 1.2.1.
22:31:20 <Eddi|zuHause> The teaching philosophy of a computer science professor from a liberal arts college in Minnesota.
22:31:22 <Eddi|zuHause> A letter of recommendation for a national competition for innovative uses of technology in collegiate teaching.
22:31:53 <Eddi|zuHause> thingwath: yes, the IRC standard does not forbid them. no, most IRC servers forbid them
22:32:19 <Belugas> i dare you to try and show us how it would go!
22:36:01 <Belugas> ho god.... what a nasty little bitchy bug...
22:36:13 <Belugas> what an ass i can be from time to time :(
22:36:26 <Elukka> hmm... nars2 has company colours
22:36:32 <Elukka> i much preferred the real colours in the older version :/
22:36:53 <el_en> if you are using an ancient character set called... damn, i forgot what it was called.. then some ASCII characters such as [{}] are actually äö something.
22:38:48 <thingwath> ä and ö are not very useful for me :)
22:41:25 <Belugas> Elukka, you know why i've suggetsed building time? as an irony. People want SOME part of OPENTTD to be more realistic, but would not ALL the parts of it, 'cause it would not be fun anymore... It was just an exmaple.
22:41:33 <el_en> this is relevant to IRC because i think that charset and those characters have affected the IRC RFC somehow.
22:44:41 <Elukka> belugas, i wouldnt want absolutely everything to be realistic either
22:45:15 <Belugas> that's the situation that irritates me
22:45:23 <Elukka> in the context of the whole game, it's not a black and white realistic vs. unrealistic case
22:45:24 <Belugas> you wnat a part of it, but not it all
22:45:37 <Elukka> so in your mind, there is no middle ground?
22:45:55 <Elukka> there are things that would be more fun were they to be more realistic, then there are those that would be less fun
22:46:02 <Belugas> middle ground shifts as soon as someone wants a new piece of realism
22:46:35 <Belugas> there are things that would be fun indeed, but some others that are added just to make it alike that will not bring anything more to the game
22:46:38 <Elukka> sensible costs are one thing that would make the game more fun to play... and why not make them realistic if you're doing it anyway?
22:47:03 <Belugas> it would not make the game more fun to play, at all.. only in your mind.
22:47:12 <Belugas> oince you're filthy rich, you can afford everyting
22:47:19 <Belugas> so... it's an illusion
22:47:26 <Elukka> that's a problem to which i don't know a solution
22:48:04 <Elukka> as it is, in modern times in ottd you can make the most money with planes
22:48:15 <Elukka> you dont need to do anything at all but plop down airports and buy planes and forget about it
22:48:28 <Elukka> it's not realistic, nor is it as fun as it could be
22:49:00 <Belugas> for some users , it is
22:49:15 <Belugas> nobody is satisfied with what they have
22:49:16 <Elukka> some people find it fun that planes are much, much better from a financial standpoint than any other method?
22:49:30 <Elukka> (while also being easier)
22:49:46 <Belugas> some people (if not most) are using the game as it is, a transport game
22:49:47 <Elukka> real life is a great model to use
22:49:54 <Belugas> any means to get filthy rich is good enouhg
22:49:56 <Elukka> in real life, all methods of transport are viable and used a lot
22:50:12 <thingwath> well, in fact, I usually just use the cheat to get few hundred millions and then not care about money at all
22:50:22 <thingwath> if it were possible, I would just turn money off :)
22:50:27 <Eddi|zuHause> el_en: that's what happens when you let finns draw up a specification...
22:50:28 <Elukka> trains dont obsolete trucks or buses, planes dont obsolete trains
22:51:01 <Belugas> in real life, it takes years to byuild a bridge. you do not wanted to go there, but saying that real life is a great model, you're doing that, implicitely
22:51:15 <Elukka> again, everything need not be realistic
22:51:26 <Elukka> there's already a kind of middle ground
22:51:30 <Elukka> some things are realistic, the others are not
22:51:40 <Elukka> how can you accept that?
22:51:53 <Elukka> there are real things, there are unrealistic things
22:52:06 <Elukka> it's not completely fictional, nor is it a simulator
22:52:16 <Elukka> this implicitly means some things are realistic while some are not
22:52:16 <Belugas> ho? a bridge created in one day is realistic?
22:52:36 <Elukka> all the methods of transport are real, though
22:52:49 <Elukka> as are cities growing, industries being built and forests growing
22:52:50 <Belugas> so who is to say what could be realistic as much as openttd is?
22:52:56 <xerxesdaphat> what i want, that would annoy the hell out of all the grand-scale ottdcoop-types, is a shunting system, turntables, with trains that don't magically turn around on a single piece of track
22:53:03 <Sacro> Belugas: l can rattle up a bridge in an afternoon
22:53:07 <Belugas> the cities are growing VERY reaslitaly indeed
22:53:10 <xerxesdaphat> that's what the `advanced settings' is for though
22:53:12 <Elukka> could you reword that?
22:53:23 <Belugas> the industries are prodcing very realiscally
22:53:34 <Elukka> i didnt say everything is 100% realistic
22:53:42 *** petern changes topic to "0.6.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (BaNaNaS: bananas, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs, Release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | Discussion of realism is now a quietable offence"
22:53:46 <Elukka> sensible costs wouldnt mean that either
22:53:47 <Belugas> and they do not ask for merchandise, they just accept whatever we throw at them
22:53:51 <Elukka> hey, it's an interesting discussion!
22:54:12 <Eddi|zuHause> lucky enough, i only ever talk about "realism"
22:54:22 <Belugas> what about stations? passengers waiting for MONTHS to climb a bus...
22:54:49 <Elukka> as openttd is based on real transport industry and has all the same basic things they do and the same methods of transports, realism in there would mean everything would be balanced and every method of transport would be viable
22:55:29 <Belugas> guess what, the game is not balanced, at all, so it is not as based on real transport as you would like it to be
22:56:04 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly, the main problem is not that the game is not "realistic", but it is not balanced
22:56:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but balance has nothing to do with "realism"
22:56:18 <Elukka> eddi, i'm suggesting real life is a good basis to balance it on
22:56:21 <Elukka> as real life balances itself
22:56:23 <Belugas> let say thatthe game borrows from reality, instead of being based on
22:57:54 <Elukka> would you not find it fun if trucks, buses, aircraft from small commuters to massive jets, ships of all sizes and all kinds of trains were viable and worked well?
22:58:34 <Elukka> in real life, all these are used and are financially viable in different situations
22:58:46 <Elukka> thus, if you based the balance on real life, everything would have their uses
22:59:02 <Elukka> you could make breaks from reality where it would not be fun
22:59:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: it's the right intention, but the wrong argument
22:59:31 <Belugas> let see... planes will have to leave, even if they are not full. Yoi will get bankrupted if you could not service fast enough the stations
22:59:49 <el_en> but not everything is viable in real life either. for example, trains mostly aren't.
22:59:58 <Belugas> planes speeds will have to be adjusted, as well as trucks
23:00:02 <Elukka> there are huge amounts of trains in the world
23:00:13 <Belugas> we would need to lower the time speed too
23:00:36 <Belugas> well... that's the price to pay
23:00:42 <Elukka> that's one thing i see as a good break from reality, it wouldnt be any fun if new vehicles never appeared
23:01:14 <Belugas> you are diverging formthe goal for the same exactly reason i'm not fund of adding realism
23:01:20 <Belugas> it would not be as fun
23:01:28 <Elukka> diverting from what goal?
23:02:01 <Elukka> i was arguing why, in the correct places, realism would in fact be fun
23:02:34 <Elukka> i think it will have to be considered whether any new feature is actually fun
23:03:02 <Elukka> realism and fun are not mutually exclusive
23:03:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: "realism" is not a goal, and most times not even a means, at best it is a side product.
23:03:30 <Belugas> i never said the opposite... that is what it means by adding to the game play
23:03:41 <Elukka> basing the balance on realism would increase realism, but it wouldnt be the main goal
23:06:36 *** lneckel has joined #openttd
23:07:05 <lneckel> someone speak portuguese here
23:07:39 <el_en> true realism would be that you are given a pre-built network of trains, road vehicles and all, which are taking more money than they produce. and your task is to close down lines, sell away vehicles and do whatever necessary to rescue the company.
23:08:55 <lneckel> hey... how can I make my dedicated server write a welcome message when a player join on it?
23:09:17 <Elukka> i think instead of playing a single manager, you're really a weird hivemind amalgamation of all the chairmen of that company ever :D
23:09:24 <thingwath> no fun with the real world, it's already too fucked up.
23:09:24 <Belugas> i think the answer can be found on the wiki
23:09:31 <Elukka> that's another acceptable break from reality
23:09:51 <Belugas> look for scrip sowmthing
23:10:06 <Belugas> i can't find either, but it's because i do not have the luxury to search
23:10:25 <lneckel> i was searching and trying some stuff
23:10:37 <lneckel> but i couldn't do nothing
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23:11:14 <Elukka> now to make a northeast corridor map
23:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> lneckel: most likely, by modifying a file in the scripts directory
23:12:14 <lneckel> hum... nice... I'll try it
23:14:29 <Rubidium> what version of OpenTTD are you using?
23:15:14 <Eddi|zuHause> next to the data directory, where you put your original TTD files
23:16:20 <Rubidium> hmm... there isn't a script for 'on-join' it seems
23:17:53 <Rubidium> that basically means that you need to run an autopilot
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23:18:26 <Rubidium> hmm, oh... there's no example file
23:18:34 <lneckel> hum... sorry, but... what is an autopilot?
23:18:41 <Rubidium> lneckel: never mind ;)
23:18:54 <Rubidium> locate your openttd binary (openttd.exe)
23:19:16 <Rubidium> then make a directory named 'scripts' in the same directory where openttd.exe is
23:19:20 <Rubidium> go into that directory
23:19:34 <Rubidium> and make a file that is called on_server_connect.scr
23:20:25 <Rubidium> and add to following to that file: say "Hello client"
23:20:47 <Rubidium> should say 'hello client' to all clients when someone joins
23:21:15 <lneckel> i've tried this before, but i didn,t read about a "scripts" directories... thanks, I'll try...
23:22:09 <lneckel> OOOOOOO.... it works... thanks, very much!
23:32:01 <lneckel> hey, how can i change the servers language
23:32:16 <lneckel> that little flag that appears on the game...
23:51:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15302 /trunk/bin/scripts/ (3 files): -Add: example file for on_server_connect.scr and document it in the scripts readme
23:54:43 <el_en> CONGRATULATIONS NYU.EDU FOR YOUR CAPS LOCK KEY.
23:55:22 <el_en> or is it "congratulations .. on"?
23:57:09 <thingwath> all caps and correct grammar?
23:57:10 <Tefad> 'on your ability to use your..."
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