IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-01-30
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04:01:10 <janitor> will a city stop/resist growing if it's blocked on just side?
04:02:11 <janitor> or is there any other reason for why a city doesn't want to grow over ~70k, even by "expand" in the scenario editor
04:02:28 <janitor> (meant just one side)
04:04:09 <Aali> if the city can build new roads, it can expand
04:04:28 <Aali> but I don't know if there are any other restrictions in the scened
04:04:57 <janitor> it's stopped growing in the game, that's why i tried the scened
04:05:25 <kd5pbo> Does adding roads to a town help?
04:05:44 <Aali> well you can certainly have towns with over 70k population
04:06:25 <janitor> i know, and i have them
04:06:30 <janitor> just not this particular one
04:07:06 <janitor> it is being blocked in areas by stations and rails, but plenty of bridges and tunnels crossing them
04:08:02 <janitor> it grows very slowly by pressing expand
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07:00:01 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: is there a german word for city? or is it just stadt?
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09:08:12 <edeca> kd5pbo: If you add roads, the town will build round them, yes
09:14:23 * edeca drinks the first coffee of the day
09:14:25 *** Roest1 is now known as Roest
09:14:42 <planetmaker> he... good idea. Me goes preparing tea
09:15:11 <Roest> i could use the coffee pad a second time for oyu, that's as good as tea
09:15:59 <planetmaker> Thanks, I think I'll stay with the nice Darjeling I have here.
09:17:26 <edeca> Darjewho? It's fairtrade coffee all the way
09:19:07 <dihedral> a glas of hot milk is a lot healthier for you
09:19:56 <edeca> dihedral: Not if you drink 6 a day
09:23:15 <dihedral> it says 'a glass of' not 'glasses of'
09:31:22 <edeca> dihedral: And when you've drunk 50%, what state is the glass in? :)
09:34:33 <xerxesda1hat> hi guys, coding my first vehicle:
09:34:45 <xerxesda1hat> i'm setting the various properties for the engine
09:34:49 <dihedral> xerxesda1hat, great, post it on the forums :-P
09:35:05 <xerxesda1hat> peter told me i should set all the properties
09:35:21 <xerxesda1hat> does this mean, what, action 0 property 00 right through to 27 or whatever?
09:35:37 <xerxesda1hat> should i leave nothing to chance?
09:35:55 <Roest> thats always a good idea
09:36:09 <xerxesda1hat> fair enough, just seems a hella long line :P
09:36:23 <xerxesda1hat> dihedral: is this not really the appropriate place to ask questions like that?
09:36:39 <dihedral> why should it not be?
09:36:43 <Roest> dihedral didnt have his milk yet
09:36:49 <xerxesda1hat> lol i dunno you said post it on the forums
09:37:39 <xerxesda1hat> btw: put the hot milk away, grind some fresh beans and make yourself an espresso
09:37:44 <dihedral> just in case you were gonna say / ask some stupid questions :-D
09:37:57 <xerxesda1hat> all my questions are stupid :D
09:38:20 <dihedral> well, then even more post them in the forums, you get the right peoples attention in there
09:39:24 <xerxesda1hat> i wonder, offhand, what the market share is of ottd compared to patch
09:39:39 <edeca> xerxesda1hat: What he means if you're more likely to get a decent response in the forums
09:39:44 <dihedral> not intereseting imo
09:39:59 <dihedral> edeca, no i did not mean that actually
09:40:18 <xerxesda1hat> well in terms of whether one should bother making a grf compatible 100% with patch
09:40:47 <Eddi|zuHause> <xerxesda1hat> fair enough, just seems a hella long line :P <- you can put line breaks in there, and comment each property (recommended)
09:41:05 <xerxesda1hat> Eddi|zuHause: sounds sensible
09:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> because, as correctly observed recently, NFO is more a machine-readable than a human-readable language, which makes plenty of comments necessary
09:44:03 <xerxesda1hat> Eddi|zuHause: reminds me of writing assembly back when I had my C64
09:44:36 <xerxesda1hat> i wasn't aware you could put the line breaks in, didn't think grfcodec was all that flexible
09:48:42 <xerxesda1hat> hah! last time i thought i knew what i was doing with grfcodec it chopped up my sprites and gave me white squares in-game :P
09:49:01 <xerxesda1hat> good thing i backed up before decoding the grf again
09:51:19 <xerxesda1hat> never underestimate the power of ignorance
09:51:55 * dihedral hugs his ignore list :-D
09:53:31 <planetmaker> being friendly with an ignore list IMO doesn't qualify as grumpy :P
09:54:57 <dihedral> Roest, kinda sick :-P
09:55:32 <dihedral> anyway - i never said i was ignoring someone, i just said i liked my ignore list :-P
09:55:54 <Aali> is anyone not grumpy ever in #openttd?
09:56:09 <Aali> a bunch of old guys obsessed with an equally old videogame, what do you expect?
09:56:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and tomorrow on "weird fetishes" ...
09:56:43 <dihedral> Aali, "equally old".....
09:56:43 <Roest> i take offense in being called old
09:56:56 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: ... a guy obsessed about 'old' guys obsessed with an 'equally old' videogame?
09:57:02 <Aali> dihedral: relatively speaking :P
09:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i was intentionally not going into details :p
09:57:43 <dihedral> if TTD was as old as the average age of the people in here it would be darn old already (thanks to Belugas)
09:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i was 12 when i first played TT
09:58:52 <Roest> which doesn't mean anything, would be different if you said you were 12 when TTD came out
09:59:08 <Aali> well, TT is from 94, that makes it pretty darn old for a video game
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09:59:32 <dihedral> Aali, do you know Pheta Space Station ?
09:59:37 <dihedral> i used to play that :-D
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09:59:57 <dihedral> or hellcats over the pacific (hotp)
10:00:32 <Aali> dihedral: sorry, I'm not that old :P
10:00:48 <petern> assigning an access list to the correct one of 'in' or 'out' is quite important...
10:03:15 <Rubidium> wow... in 1952 there already was a computer game with an AI
10:03:27 <Rubidium> now that's quite old for a video game
10:04:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i assume it was a chess AI
10:05:02 <Rubidium> although it depends on what you call an AI whether you'd classify this AI as AI
10:05:58 <Eddi|zuHause> a program making decisions not directly reacting on user input
10:07:06 <Rubidium> anyhow, it's a perfect tic-tac-toe 'player' for the game called 'OXO'
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10:20:33 <Elukka> ok so i thought i could try making an US scenario
10:20:52 <Elukka> is there anywhere where i can find information on what type of industry is dominant in what area?
10:21:13 <Roest> they dont have any industry it's just service and banks
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10:22:22 <Elukka> what do people usually do when they make real world maps?
10:22:26 <Elukka> do they just plonk them down randomly?
10:23:33 *** petern sets mode: +q dihedral!*@*
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10:23:59 <Aali> it doesn't really matter since all those industries will be pretty much randomized later on anyway
10:24:11 <Aali> unless you service them all from the very beginning
10:24:23 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany we have these fancy books called "Atlas", they have topographical, political AND economical maps of each area of the earth
10:24:28 <petern> edeca, even better, getting ip masks correct is quite important...
10:24:44 <xerxesdaphat> Eddi|zuHause: sounds like an almanac
10:24:55 <petern> reversed netmask? whyever not!
10:25:30 <xerxesdaphat> Elukka: why not check on wikipedia? they normally list things like that w.r.t. various states and regions
10:26:21 <Elukka> list of somethingsomething, somethingsomething per state?
10:26:42 <Eddi|zuHause> xerxesdaphat: Atlas, of course, is a person in the greek mythology
10:27:00 <Eddi|zuHause> generally pictured carrying the world on his neck
10:27:43 <xerxesdaphat> just in the general article it says it's all about dairy products, apples, eggs etc.
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10:27:53 <Elukka> i think i'll research a bit and make a simple map for myself
10:28:04 <Elukka> for reference, if i ever get to making the scenario
10:28:41 <xerxesdaphat> Eddi|zuHause: I've still got my 1986 Reader's Digest Atlas
10:28:49 <xerxesdaphat> complete with East Germany and teh USSR :D
10:29:33 <Eddi|zuHause> that'll do. american economy did not do much since then... except... crash twice
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10:30:18 <Elukka> last time i tried to do anything, i couldnt get a heightmap from anywhere
10:32:19 <xerxesdaphat> thinking aloud, i wonder if it's possible to use google earth for things like that
10:32:42 <Elukka> there's an SRTM plugin for google earth
10:32:54 <Elukka> found it in the heightmap guide in the forum
10:33:02 <Elukka> however, i only saw the banner, not the download links
10:33:08 <Elukka> even though all of them were ticked on
10:33:44 <Elukka> google maps has accurate enough heigh data... too bad there's no way to get it out of it :/
10:35:12 <Elukka> if i'm doing the whole of united states (and probably some canada and stuff) i dont really need a huge res heightmap
10:35:23 <Elukka> yes, that's what i tried to do
10:35:43 <Elukka> oh yay, someone in the forums has made on
10:38:55 <Elukka> hmm, it has more central america than canada...
10:39:16 <Elukka> ok, is anyone here capable of making a heightmap?
10:39:37 <Eddi|zuHause> there is nothing in canada much further north from the border
10:40:13 <Elukka> i could cut off half of it... i dont want to lose florida, though
10:40:16 <Elukka> but i really dont need uruguay
10:41:11 <dihedral> Roest, you could do a map making use of the free form map edges ;-)
10:41:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem of heightmaps is, the further you go away from the equator (or other projection center), the higher the distortions get
10:42:06 <Roest> dihedral look at the date posted :)
10:42:17 <Elukka> damn earth for being round and all
10:42:36 <dihedral> look at the words i wrote
10:43:02 <dihedral> not 'why is it not using...' but 'you could....'
10:43:11 <Roest> that town placement patch was pretty cool, too bad he dropped out of sight so fast
10:55:54 <Eddi|zuHause> gnah... chances are, the last 3 episodes of pushing dasies will be shown in germany before they are shown in the usa
10:57:22 * Rubidium hopes they aren't dubbed in German the ;)
10:58:49 <Eddi|zuHause> you hope wrongly...
10:59:24 <xerxesdaphat> finally figured out action 4 so my NZR DE Class is no longer a Ploddyphut Diesel :D
10:59:25 <thingwath> German is such a beautiful language...
10:59:37 <xerxesdaphat> now, onto the xrel/yrel :'(
10:59:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but german dubs are of less quality than the original, usually
11:00:46 <Rubidium> ah well, strange release dates happen more often
11:01:17 <thingwath> most of dubs are of less quality than the original
11:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it is rumoured that the last 3 episode do not air at all, but get released on the DVD set only
11:01:49 <xerxesdaphat> it was all cocked up because of the writer's strike, wasn't it
11:02:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the second season had a huge drop in ratings
11:02:56 <xerxesdaphat> oh there was a second season! hah, takes a while for american shows to air in the antipodes
11:03:30 <Elukka> yay! the heightmap worked pretty well
11:03:31 <Eddi|zuHause> they started showing the second season here last week
11:03:33 <Elukka> now to do some research
11:04:18 <Elukka> ...the great lakes need some water though
11:07:44 <edeca> Elukka: Where did you get the heightmap from?
11:07:58 <Elukka> some random guy in the forums who had posted it
11:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> a grf for rivers
11:08:22 <Elukka> yeah, but what does it actually do?
11:08:27 <Elukka> enables water above the sea level?
11:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> similar to canals, except you cannot build them in the game
11:08:46 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can have slopes
11:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause> especially, you can make lakes
11:09:12 <Elukka> shame you cant get multiple climates on one map...
11:09:57 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: Cool, so you could have lakes in the mountains?
11:10:00 <Elukka> are rivers traversable by boats?
11:10:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but not the slopes
11:10:25 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to bypass them with a lock
11:11:04 <Elukka> damn you, you just caused me a lot more work because now i have to place rivers too
11:14:44 * edeca searches for screenshots
11:20:31 * edeca needs counselling after learning that
11:33:03 <petern> why are most lcd displays not height adjustable?
11:33:33 <edeca> petern: Sucks, doesn't it. That's the only use for a yellow pages nowadays
11:33:55 <edeca> And it's silly, you pay extra for one with height adjustment and then adjust it exactly once, when you first install it :)
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11:35:22 <Aali> looking at my desktop; old crappy lcd is height adjustable, new fancy lcd sits on top of my haskell book
11:36:02 <petern> i should put mine on a few
11:36:14 <petern> my neck is permanently down...
11:36:36 <edeca> My posture is awful too
11:36:48 <edeca> Added to that a 1:30 commute every day and my back aches :)
11:37:34 <thingwath> hm, if I didn't have a laptop, I guess I would mount display on wall
11:37:35 <petern> apparently your arms should reach out to the top of the monitor
11:37:44 <petern> i don't think that really applies to modern huge LCDs...
11:38:26 <edeca> Heh I have a 22" widescreen LCD next to a 19", if my arms touched them I'd probably have burnt retinas
11:39:42 <thingwath> and you can actually see something on it?
11:42:16 <thingwath> so I need new glasses :-(
11:42:51 <Gekz> I have only one eye that works
11:44:12 <thingwath> that is enough, depth perception isn't needed for computer displays :)
11:45:21 <petern> unless you stick your arms out
11:45:32 <petern> and smack the display...
11:45:56 <petern> apparently the monitor should be an arms length away
11:46:08 * petern wonders where to place his second monitor :p
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13:05:58 <edeca> petern: Place it on my desk! :)
13:17:48 <xerxesdaphat> now, has anybody have any clue, that when i load my train grf in conjunction with the UK Renewal Set, the y-axis alignment in the depot window seems different?
13:21:19 <petern> edeca, it's a 15" 1024x768... are you sure?
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13:27:42 <planetmaker> I'm still a bit puzzled about the tt-forums thread with mp_void / mp_water
13:27:57 <planetmaker> with free-form the water edges become un-buildable?
13:28:26 <Yexo> planetmaker: open a new game with all water edges, scroll to the north edge and change the setting
13:28:41 <Yexo> you'll see the tiles changes from water to void tiles
13:29:05 <planetmaker> ok :) Which means I cannot do anything with that tile anymore, right?
13:29:34 <Yexo> same as you can't do anything on other tiles outside the map :)
13:29:47 <xerxesdaphat> petern: i was looking at that but i thought offset meant something else
13:29:52 <planetmaker> yeah, ok :) Thanks a lot. :)
13:30:00 <Yexo> with freeform edges on, a 64x64 map is actually 62x62. With the settinf off it's 63x63
13:30:51 <xerxesdaphat> actually no i was looking at something in callbacks
13:30:52 <planetmaker> ah, there it goes :) No wrapping :)
13:31:16 <xerxesdaphat> petern: thanks once again for being patient with noobs :D
13:31:38 <Yexo> that was never the intention, as then a lot more code needs to be adjusted
13:32:05 <planetmaker> Yexo: no, sure. I'm also quite convinced that it's not a good idea.
13:33:10 <Yexo> I think it could be fun to have the option to play on a wrap-around map, it's just very hard to code
13:33:59 <planetmaker> That of I'm convinced :)
13:37:48 <edeca> Yexo: Definitely! One way rail tracks circling the globe ;)
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13:47:11 <Elukka> you know, its actually kinda interesting to make this scenario
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13:47:26 <Elukka> i get to look at places in google earth that would otherwise not occur to me
13:55:41 <edeca> Elukka: Shame ECS doesn't have an alien factory to plonk in Nevada
13:58:49 <Rubidium> aliens aren't produced in Nevada
13:59:33 <edeca> I didn't suggest they were processed there.
14:00:03 <Rubidium> producing is what a factory does
14:00:29 <edeca> Heh. When irony goes too far.
14:02:15 <edeca> Are current affairs going to be incorporated into openttd? "The Government has sent car factory workers home on leave for 4 months, vehicle production halted!"
14:02:36 <Rubidium> just write a newgrf to do that
14:08:28 <Elukka> you know whats the problem with big projects like this
14:08:33 <Elukka> first i'm all "yay, this is cool"
14:08:40 <Elukka> then i lose motivation :/
14:09:03 <Elukka> i have one other scenario i deserted
14:09:11 <Elukka> my 3D folder has about 20 models i havent done
14:09:21 <Elukka> my drawings folder has probably about 50 unfinished things
14:21:02 <edeca> Elukka: My brain is full of whacky ideas like that :)
14:21:49 <Elukka> i kinda semi-finished this
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15:10:34 * Celestar finds his appearance to have astonishingly little effect
15:10:53 <Roest> anyone seen celestar lately?
15:11:19 * Celestar pokes Roest with ... something :P
15:12:16 <Celestar> I have completed my research project \o/
15:12:26 <Celestar> only thing that remains is writing my dissertation :P
15:13:12 <Roest> i used to say that last year when i finished programming and only the writing remained
15:15:14 <Roest> you will find out that "only" isn't quite the right word
15:15:58 <Celestar> it WAS a bit of ironic, the 'only'
15:16:48 <Celestar> especially since I hate, and suck at, writing
15:18:55 * Celestar throws his XP installation CD outta the window.
15:21:50 <Celestar> I got this new laptop. It took me 25 minutes to install an Opensuse 11.1 from scratch. For the past 4 hours, I have attempted to install XPSP2 from the installation CD.
15:22:05 <Celestar> the installer bluescreens before it even gets to the GUI
15:23:06 <Celestar> maybe I should just virtualize it
15:23:24 <Roest> xp doesnt like it when there is linux on your hd
15:23:51 <Roest> i always install xp first then linux after it
15:24:06 <Roest> and yes i'm serious, found out the hard way
15:24:25 <Celestar> I normally do, but I hadn'T any XP CD when I first got it
15:24:57 <Elukka> i still havent got the great lakes done
15:26:27 <edeca> You can install Windows after Linux fine, you just have to sort out the MBR from a boot CD after
15:26:40 <edeca> If windows bluescreens before the GUI though, that's trouble :)
15:27:42 <Roest> but it's easier to do it in the right order, saves you a major headache
15:28:52 <Roest> i have xp, vista and linux on my machine, if i dont install it in that order too it gets messy
15:30:14 <Celestar> yeah, but I need OpenGL, and I'm not sure vmware supports it
15:31:15 <edeca> Celestar: 6.5 does DirectX 9, never tried opengl
15:31:30 <edeca> Celestar: So it's positive at least that they are starting to support 3D natively
15:31:45 <Celestar> even the free version?
15:32:42 <edeca> I don't know, I use the paid version.
15:38:12 <Sacro> Celestar: virtualbox latest has opengl
15:39:36 <edeca> I use Workstation 6.5. But if virtualbox has opengl, that would be cool too
15:40:40 <Roest> is it still so that small airports give a higher crash chance later in the game?
15:40:59 <Celestar> Sacro: yes, so I read.
15:45:26 <angelo2> what's the use of having virtual machinse and all these os in a pc?
15:45:44 <Sacro> angelo2: i prefer to have linux as my main OS
15:45:59 <Sacro> as it is x86_64 so can use my full RAM
15:46:15 <Sacro> and then an XP guest machine so that I can run Visual Studio
15:46:36 <goodger> huzzah for visual studio
15:46:59 <goodger> the only text editor that takes longer to load than windows itself
15:47:26 <Celestar> on my T42p, XP took about 120 seconds to load
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15:52:34 <Roest> is there a way to specify which AI to use in a scenario or is that random between the available AIs?
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15:56:58 <Roest> somehow all my ottd questions are ignored :(
15:58:46 <edeca> I think the answer is no. The client can set specific AIs for a game, but I don't think you can any other way
15:58:50 <edeca> But I'm probably wrong, as usual
16:00:36 <petern> if VS takes longer to load that windows, you need more than 128MB ram...
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16:08:59 <edeca> Are you just doing the great lakes?
16:10:48 <Elukka> it's the united states and little bits of canada and mexico
16:10:53 <Elukka> no guarantees it'll ever be finished :P
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16:18:26 <SHRIKEE> if an airplane crashes, does that affect the amount of passengers on airports?
16:18:41 <SHRIKEE> like, the rates drop a bit, less passengers...
16:19:51 <petern> i think they all go elsewhere
16:20:12 <edeca> SHRIKEE: Your rating will drop, yes.
16:20:45 <SHRIKEE> but stay passengers away?
16:20:58 <SHRIKEE> because theyre scared or something?
16:21:07 <edeca> No, because you have poor ratings.
16:21:14 <edeca> Openttd doesn't have emotions.
16:21:29 <SHRIKEE> woulod be an interresting feature though ;)
16:21:46 <edeca> Yeah, sure. The banker should wink at you when you take out a loan.
16:21:53 <SHRIKEE> when an accident happens, or maybe a few times that people in the area stay away from that type of transport
16:22:51 <SHRIKEE> traffic giant has a mechanism like that though
16:23:00 <SHRIKEE> people can be unhappy or scared for all sorts of things
16:23:08 <SHRIKEE> and thus stay away from that tramline or bus
16:38:20 <Elukka> the great lakes area is 500x300 squares
16:39:55 <Elukka> depending on what you mean by to scale
16:59:49 <Elukka> how can i get the rivers in their right place :/
16:59:53 <Elukka> they arent on the map...
17:00:47 <Roest> convert map tile into utm coordinates, get river coordinates from google maps, draw river, profit
17:01:14 <Elukka> what's an utm coordinate, how do i get the coordinates from google earth and how does this help in the game? :P
17:01:52 <Roest> it doesn't help you at all, i have no clue and was only half serious
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17:02:34 <Elukka> oh, i thought you knew stuff :(
17:02:48 <Roest> been pretending all the time
17:05:17 <Roest> but seriously i think the only way is to get a map, look where the rivers are and put them in manually
17:05:38 <Roest> or put the rivers in your heightmap
17:07:24 <Elukka> since i already spent hours on the great lakes
17:07:43 <Roest> should've done the small and medium lakes first
17:08:30 <Elukka> i dont see that many anyway
17:08:42 <Roest> ok my attempts on humor fail at you
17:08:59 <Elukka> you, me, or us both suck at humor
17:09:22 <Elukka> first you say something that sounds like genuine advice
17:09:40 <Elukka> then you have a good suggestion, drawing them on a heightmap
17:09:53 <Elukka> then you say something that again sounds like advice
17:10:08 <Roest> actually the first one wasn't really a joke but not really practical either
17:10:58 <Roest> if you can estimate a real world coordinate for map tile it should be easy to get the right locations for rivers but it's alot of effort
17:11:36 <Elukka> is it more than attempting to look at maps?
17:13:04 <Roest> dunno, guess i'll see for myself, i decided to add rivers to my scenario
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17:42:24 <SHRIKEE> i'm wondering, in the yearly balance sheet. there is a category "other" and somehow i spend 17k on that every year. it grows a bit as my company grows... what "other" costs are they?
17:48:41 <Roest> expensive hookers or just many?
17:49:08 <Jerre> nice expensive call girls
17:49:47 <Jerre> why do you think the hq gets bigger
17:49:54 <Jerre> it needs to hold more hooker
17:50:05 <SHRIKEE> it's the largest already :P
17:50:37 <Jerre> then i guess the quality of the hookers must increse
17:55:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r15296 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup: remove redundant _MSC_VER >= 1400 checks, older versions aren't supported anymore. One check in stdafx.h is enough
18:06:17 <Belugas> SHRIKEE, if i'm not mistaken, OTHERS cover -> profits/loses from shares operations, buying bankkrupts, funding iundustries, Town actions
18:07:21 <SHRIKEE> well bribes and stuff go there
18:07:27 <SHRIKEE> but even if i don't do anything there is a sum
18:07:46 <SmatZ> also _prices.build_station >> 4 each month
18:13:55 <frosch123> pff, how is "Use first refittable cargo type as default cargo" supposed to work wrt. the capacity divisors (4 passenger == 2 mailbag == 2 goods boxes == 1 other cargo)
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18:17:38 <frosch123> we can of course add the cargo type to those accessable from the purchase list, but that does not really solve the multiplier problem
18:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> pff, how is "Use first refittable cargo type as default cargo" supposed to work wrt. the capacity divisors (4 passenger == 2 mailbag == 2 goods boxes == 1 other cargo) <- what are those, anyway?
18:23:50 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: TTD allowed refitting of ships, maybe also aircraft. those multipliers were used to adapt the capacity for different types of cargo
18:24:28 <frosch123> i.e. a ship carrying 100 passengers, could be refitted to 50 bags of mail, 50 boxes of goods, or 25 units of any other cargo
18:25:21 <frosch123> though TTD is so much in the past, that I do not know whether planes or ships or both were refittable
18:25:55 <Roest> i think i remember having coal planes
18:25:56 <frosch123> usually you replace those weird things with callback 15, but that is only called when you refit, not when bulding
18:26:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and do these multipliers still apply anywhere?
18:26:15 <frosch123> yes, when you do not use callback 15
18:26:55 <Eddi|zuHause> so... use every occurance of these with a callback 15?
18:27:08 <SmatZ> frosch123: planes were refittable (and they aren't in OTTD) I think
18:27:57 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: i think the refit options were reduced to "sensible" ones... e.g. valuables, goods
18:28:08 <frosch123> well, I do not know what breaks when you call callback 15 on construction and in the purchase list
18:31:46 <Elukka> heh, i've never played ttdpatch
18:32:03 <SmatZ> only cargo ship is refittable
18:32:04 <Elukka> it was attractive back when openttd didnt have a lot of its features, but i never got around to installing
18:34:14 <Eddi|zuHause> custom bridgeheads/basetunnels are still missing
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18:35:57 <frosch123> ok, in ottd 0.1 those multipliers only apply to aircraft, which is easy as they only have a default passenger capacity
18:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r15297 /trunk/src/lang/ (21 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-01-30 18:45:08
18:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 1 fixed by tucalipe (1)
18:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 1 fixed by arnaullv (1)
18:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 1 fixed by Hadez (1)
18:45:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 fixed by Excel20 (1)
18:45:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 fixed by jpx_ (1)
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18:59:13 <el_en> glx: i decided to switch back to VMware Server 1.0.8.
19:16:15 <Belugas> [13:28] <SmatZ> frosch123: planes were refittable (and they aren't in OTTD) I think <-- they were in Openttd, at least until someone wh works in aeronautics cut that out, in the name of realism ;)
19:17:06 <Elukka> umm, in real life, there are many planes that are used both for cargo and passengers
19:17:45 <Elukka> i think in openttd terms, real planes could carry passengers, mail and goods
19:17:50 <Elukka> not ore or something, though...
19:17:57 <Belugas> and if memeory serves me well, another someone who works nicely with a beer nearby did manufactured a patch to get them back in, but alas, did not got it into trunk
19:18:25 <Elukka> are you talking about planes being able to transport everything?
19:18:31 <Belugas> Elukka, in OpenTTD world, planes are just another mean of tranport, no more no less
19:18:42 <Elukka> that wouldnt make much sense
19:19:19 <Elukka> it's not... you'll hate me for this.. realistic
19:19:27 <Belugas> you;re too addicted to reality to see otherwise
19:19:40 <Belugas> OPEN YOU EYES TO THE REALITY OF OPENTTD
19:19:51 <Belugas> you're in a differnt world
19:19:53 <Elukka> openttd is based on reality
19:20:11 <Elukka> so why make silly jumps out of reality?
19:20:22 <Belugas> and i would even go as to say "INspired"
19:20:33 <Belugas> by reality instead of based
19:21:29 <Elukka> when a game is based on something distinctly real, like the transport business, the roman empire, or world war 2, i like it to be reasonably realistic
19:22:03 <Belugas> what makes you think that CS did the game to reflect reality?
19:22:13 <Belugas> you are putting intentions to his work
19:22:15 <petern> when a game is based on something distinctlky real, like a racing simulator, or a train simulator (bve?) i like it to be realistic
19:22:29 <petern> and flight sims, of course
19:22:41 <Elukka> in real life, we have the transport business and the things that go on in the game
19:22:45 <Elukka> of course it reflects reality
19:23:00 <Elukka> note, i didnt say its an exact simulation
19:23:02 <petern> anything that involves a tile landscape can shun reality when it wants to
19:23:26 <Elukka> why do sawyer's original intentions matter at this point, anyway?
19:23:38 <petern> like in zombie panic, people complain when the guns are not realistic enough...
19:23:48 <petern> but, uh, the zombies... they're realistic?
19:23:58 <SmatZ> is real world discrete or not? energy is discrete, but is space?
19:24:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> SmatZ: yes, space is believed to be discrete
19:24:20 <Elukka> i'm assuming the guns are real
19:24:26 <Noldo> SmatZ: ask the quantum physisist
19:24:38 <Elukka> so its justified to criticize them, assuming it wants a degree of realism
19:24:41 <Elukka> even if it has zombies
19:25:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> but quantum level is not "realistic" either :)
19:25:08 <petern> not if making them totally realistic adversely affects gameplay
19:25:29 <Elukka> i find it often doesnt
19:26:01 <Noldo> it must be just your realism then
19:26:31 <Noldo> do you happeen to know how they operated signals before electricity?
19:26:39 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
19:26:40 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: discrete so it can be "tiled", or discrete so you can move by some minimal distance, but not discrete in the angle you move?
19:26:49 <Elukka> how would realistic guns in a shooter make the gameplay worse than semi-realistic guns?
19:26:59 <SmatZ> but then it could happen two particles can never meet... ignore it :)
19:27:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: ever had a shooter where you could get an atomic bomb?
19:27:30 <Eddi|zuHause> it is certainly "realistic"
19:27:31 <SmatZ> Elukka: because of simulated recoil?
19:27:48 <Noldo> Elukka: they have to be cleaned
19:27:53 <Belugas> CS created the game. He made it the way it is. He decided of the different proportions as they are. We have to leave with it, keeping the game in a state of CLOSE to reality but still far enough to make it a fantasy world, which it is. There are for more reality-breach than reality-realism on it to make it ... unreal
19:28:17 <Elukka> i dont want my character to need to shit every once in a while
19:28:22 <petern> i found a solution to the reality problem
19:29:13 <Elukka> we dont really know CS' intentions
19:29:21 <Elukka> and even if we did, why should we care too much?
19:29:25 <thingwath> petern: do you have a patch? :)
19:35:19 <dihedral> Elukka, you needent care too much! the devs do, if you dont like it, checkout trunk and do your own branch somewhere... its open source after all
19:36:11 <Belugas> Elukka, easy enough: 1) the intentions are quite visible within the actual state of the game 2) we have to preserve the feel of the original game, since it was soo popular people are still playing it
19:36:46 <Elukka> theoretically, if someone had a way of implementing curved tracks
19:36:51 <Elukka> would you have it or not?
19:37:15 <Elukka> because i remember you saying it wouldnt feel like ttd
19:37:24 <Belugas> mayube, if it was made in a very good manner, and cold be toggled on/off
19:37:36 <Belugas> indeed, itr would not be ttd-ish
19:37:43 <Belugas> thus, i would not play with it
19:37:44 <Elukka> things like that arent really intentions of CS, but technical limitations
19:37:45 <blathijs> Elukka: I've spent it a great deal of thought, and it was even taken into account in the map array rewrite years ago
19:38:16 <blathijs> Elukka: But currently it is really not technivally possible (yet), nor do I think we really need it
19:38:27 <Belugas> Elukka, now it's my turn to ask you what do you know about CS's intentions ;)
19:38:37 <Elukka> it was a thought experiment!
19:38:45 <Elukka> yeah, it's not the most crucial thing
19:38:59 <Elukka> i know that 1994 technical limitations were not his intentions :P
19:38:59 <dihedral> realism is not crucial in that game at all
19:38:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you can add quite some curved tracks by considering the trackbits on neighbouring tiles
19:39:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but then you need a lot of graphics
19:39:09 <blathijs> Elukka: Adding curved tracks for extra gameplay is one thing, but I don't think it should be because that will make things more realistic (realism sucks)
19:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> a) for the tracks
19:39:28 <dihedral> Elukka, you know rollercoaster tycoon?
19:39:31 <Eddi|zuHause> b) for the vehicles in at least one more set of angles (22.5°)
19:39:48 <dihedral> now lets talk again about 'technical' limitations at that time
19:39:51 <Eddi|zuHause> c) more offsets for vehicles, to go along the curved tracks
19:40:15 <dihedral> one carrage in rc had like 6700 sprites
19:40:30 <petern> graphics for tracks is a problem that could be solved at the same time as my railtypes patch
19:40:35 <dihedral> to go round the curves
19:40:48 <Elukka> in rc it could be implemented, but not in tt
19:41:12 <dihedral> there is no need for it in OpenTTD
19:41:42 <dihedral> besides: why dont you try to code it?
19:42:25 <petern> or play locomotion, hehe
19:42:59 <dihedral> sim city... whats the realism there?
19:43:05 <Elukka> sim city 4 is fairly realistic
19:43:19 <dihedral> then play sim city 4
19:43:41 <dihedral> this is about TTD not sim city 4 (and i never mentioned sim city 4, i mentioned sim city)
19:44:30 <Elukka> why would i play sim city 4 when i want to play a transport game?
19:44:31 <dihedral> we are not even at 0.7 yet
19:44:42 <Elukka> i said i disagreed with some points, not that i hate the game and dont want to play it
19:44:49 <dihedral> why would you moan about the game you want to play so much?
19:45:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, openttd 4 might very well be a 3d game ;)
19:45:17 <dihedral> you get to drive the train....
19:45:33 <Elukka> i dont think discussing our opinions on realism is really moaning
19:45:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and you can follow each individual passenger through the network ;)
19:45:58 <dihedral> oh - and you have traffic
19:46:10 <dihedral> and an undo button incase you drive you train over a truck
19:46:30 <Elukka> heh, i remember you could drive trains in locomotion
19:46:36 * dihedral thinks of c&c renegade
19:51:18 <dihedral> i cannot believe that kid got at me for my 'bad undo in topic' comment :-D
19:52:06 <Elukka> i wouldnt mind an undo button in the scenario editor...
19:53:09 <Elukka> i didnt even request it, i said i wouldnt mind it
19:53:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it's an undo knob, it is totally different from an undo button!
19:53:53 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't even be mad at him for not finding anything when searching for "undo knob" :p
19:54:36 <dihedral> Elukka, you would probably not mind copy & paste either, right?
19:54:57 <Roest> actually i'd really like to see c&p in trunk
19:55:14 * dihedral runs in circles screaming
19:55:46 <dihedral> what is the point of c&p?
19:55:55 <Elukka> copying and pasting things.
19:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause> in all the year(without s) that i played the MiniIN, i used the copy paste feature exactly once. to try out what it does.
19:56:00 <dihedral> everything will 1. look the same, 2. will have the same issues
19:56:06 <dihedral> you will never learn to improve
19:56:12 <Roest> makes tedious things not tedious
19:56:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i have absolutely no tedious things that this feature would make less tedious
19:56:40 <Belugas> Elukka, being in scenarion or in game mode, it's basically the same
19:56:58 <dihedral> read the code and find out
19:57:02 <Elukka> i had to reload an older save about 3 times when doing the great lakes
19:57:03 <dihedral> search the forums and find out
19:57:07 <Elukka> ah, you mean it would be a pita to code
19:57:11 <Roest> nobody force you to use it but why not offer it to the one that want to
19:57:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i want 100.000€, does that mean i get them?
19:58:13 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: nobody forces you to use 100k€ :P
19:58:19 <dihedral> and why not offer the money to those who want it, you dont have to use it if you dont want to
19:58:37 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: Depends. Are you a bank? Did you lend people money who couldn't afford to pay you back?
19:58:53 <Prof_Frink> If so, add a couple of zeros and ask again.
19:59:01 <Belugas> thing is, for the engine, most of it is exactly the same, scenario or game more are really much more about a very few rules and guys
19:59:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: does "i think i deserve it" count?
19:59:14 <Elukka> hey, is it my memory or was there a patch that added a "click once to get signals every nth tile on this whole line" feature?
19:59:26 <Roest> so any serious arguments it or just i don't need it so everyone else doesn't
19:59:28 <planetmaker> old feature, Elukka
19:59:52 <Elukka> the feature is in the game?
19:59:58 <Elukka> and i have just not been using it this whole time
20:00:12 <dihedral> Elukka, drag and drop signals over the entire line existed already
20:00:44 * dihedral pictures the 'user' placing signals every 2 tiles manually
20:00:53 <planetmaker> Elukka: try the same with building bridges, stations, signals
20:00:58 <Elukka> "hey, could we get some pie?" "the free pie feature is old, its been in the game forever" "what wait you've been getting pie and i've been missing out?!" "yes"
20:01:02 <Elukka> this is my genious tired analogy
20:01:30 * dihedral extends his ignore list
20:02:31 <Prof_Frink> dihedral: I have no need to picture it.
20:02:54 <Elukka> are there more major rivers in north america that i should add, besides rio grande and mississippi?
20:03:40 <planetmaker> no, wait. McKencie, I think is its name
20:04:13 <Elukka> fair amount of work to go through all of them and look their width up though!
20:04:40 <planetmaker> I should trust my intuition...
20:05:12 <planetmaker> St. Lawrence is big enough for ships mostly. And was an important explorer path to Hudson bay
20:05:29 <Prof_Frink> Is it bad that I typed that URL in and it worked?
20:05:54 <planetmaker> :) Might be infectuous :P
20:05:58 <Elukka> i only have a part of rio grande and most of mississippi
20:06:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the mississippi has at least half a dozen side rivers
20:06:13 <Elukka> because i dont really want to fill the map with smaller rivers
20:06:14 <Eddi|zuHause> of significant size
20:06:30 <Elukka> should i make mississippi two tiles wide?
20:06:34 <Eddi|zuHause> then ther's stuff like the hudson river
20:07:17 *** Mortomes has joined #openttd
20:08:17 <Belugas> followed by Local Authority
20:09:10 <Elukka> i like how there's a swastika shaped building in a us naval base
20:09:39 <Belugas> yurk... and he's watching army stuff :(
20:10:24 <Wolf01> into the vomit? /me vomits too XD
20:10:58 <Prof_Frink> Eeek! It's an uber-pea!
20:11:02 <Belugas> high five to the Wolf!
20:11:30 <Eddi|zuHause> appetit, i think
20:12:12 <Eddi|zuHause> what's an über-pea?
20:12:30 <thingwath> And I was about to have dinner.
20:12:44 <Prof_Frink> Attack of the Uber-Pea
20:13:21 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't remember if i actually saw that...
20:13:55 <Prof_Frink> It is rather good.
20:15:51 *** FloSoft has joined #openttd
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20:29:22 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... why does my university webspace say 404? the files are there, they have not moved...
20:30:12 <fjb> There server has moved? :-)
20:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause> if it were permissions, it would say 403, wouldn't it?
20:30:56 <Eddi|zuHause> most likely, the admins screwed up...
20:32:01 <Eddi|zuHause> ~> dir public_html -ld
20:32:02 <Eddi|zuHause> drwxr-xr-x 4 [...] 2009-01-23 15:12 public_html
20:32:39 <dihedral> put a .htaccess in there and allow indexing :-D
20:33:01 <Eddi|zuHause> and the files in there are of similar permissions
20:37:15 <thingwath> yup, permission error most likely would not lead to 404 error
20:45:49 <Wolf01> uh... compilation failed on network_content.cpp
20:46:41 <Wolf01> C:/msys/home/OpenTTD/trunk_b/src/network/network_content.cpp:392: error: `unlink' was not declared in this scope
20:56:17 <Wolf01> msvc seem to be able to compile it
20:59:48 <doc> ok, what trick am I missing when it comes to oil rigs? 50% of production shipping but I have ships sitting there losing me money every year
21:00:32 <planetmaker> do you have full load orders?
21:00:55 <Wolf01> timetables might do the trick
21:01:10 <planetmaker> they help A LOT, wolf01 :)
21:01:11 <doc> hmmm, have to look into timetables then
21:01:19 <planetmaker> especially with those ships :)
21:01:45 <Eddi|zuHause> doc: do the ships actually earn money at the destination?
21:01:49 <Wolf01> try a "stay at station for 15 days"
21:02:03 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you did not catch the oil accepting parts of the refinery
21:02:27 <doc> they're transferring to a train
21:02:43 <doc> maybe I should watch it for a bit
21:02:46 <Eddi|zuHause> did you use "unload" instead of "transfer"?
21:03:10 <planetmaker> and "leave empty" at the train station
21:03:21 <Elukka> we have hydrogen cyanide leaking around in finland from a factory fire
21:03:24 <Elukka> also known as zyklon-b
21:03:26 <doc> nope, transfer and take cargo (of which there is none)
21:03:48 <petern> # flower king of flies
21:03:51 <planetmaker> you ships have "take cargo" at the train station?
21:04:04 <Eddi|zuHause> doc: yes, there is, the oil you just unloaded from the ship
21:04:21 <planetmaker> then they're bound to have the same oil for an eternal sight-seeing tour abord
21:04:48 *** xerxesda1hat has joined #openttd
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21:06:20 <petern> i don't get the question :o
21:06:40 <frosch123> the road vehicle that returned 116 for var c6 in 0.6.3, returns 0 in trunk
21:07:34 <frosch123> can be seen by the grf used in fs#2587. though the author was that evil not to report it, but release a different grf for trunk :p
21:08:29 <petern> problem is that engine_offsets really is irrelevent :/
21:09:12 <petern> and the spec never specifies which should be used
21:11:00 <frosch123> well, the new behaviour is easier for the grfauthor :)
21:11:16 <frosch123> just that 0.6.3 and likely ttdp behave differently
21:11:27 <petern> for trains there's no difference
21:11:42 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 750*67/3/2/2500
21:11:42 <petern> and it's probably never been used for ships or aircraft...
21:11:47 <petern> (could be wrong though)
21:12:08 <petern> i'd prefer if we could leave it out the offsets
21:14:07 <frosch123> so, document 0.6.3 as broken?
21:14:44 <Eddi|zuHause> "it's a feature" :p
21:15:05 <petern> how does it behave in ttdpatch? :o
21:15:23 <petern> then 0.6.3 is not broken
21:15:41 <petern> can we document it a change? :o
21:16:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but... with an engine pool, why should there be offsets?
21:16:48 <petern> the question is, how many real sets are out there that are actually broken by the change?
21:17:09 <petern> it does not affect trains, so that's most sets excluded
21:18:21 <frosch123> well, var 60 is unlikely used. affected are only those rv/tramsets that use the same ids for articulated parts
21:18:22 <petern> it is cleaner without. what number should you use it you decided to assign engine id 65534...
21:18:48 <petern> so that's egrvts, which seems to work fine
21:19:01 <frosch123> egrvts uses the new behaviour :)
21:19:29 <frosch123> though I wonder why they do not use livery overrides
21:19:40 <petern> lack of understanding, probably ;)
21:22:05 <frosch123> "GRVTS2 v0.1" does not use that variable
21:22:46 <frosch123> quite old grf before engine pool
21:23:06 <petern> not on general release, is it?
21:23:20 <petern> (though it doesn't matter, heh)
21:23:41 <frosch123> do you really think I know where the grfs on my hdd are from?
21:25:45 <Wolf01> how do I check zlib version?
21:26:01 <Wolf01> (and maybe libpng too)
21:40:13 <SpComb> hmm... any germans present? I need some translation help
21:40:34 <SpComb> as in, how to express "some kind of document proving that I'm actually a student at an university this semester" in german
21:41:02 <frosch123> Immatrikulationsbescheinigung
21:41:23 <Prof_Frink> frosch123: That's not a real word.
21:41:29 <Prof_Frink> It's not long enough to be German.
21:42:02 <SpComb> frosch123: awesome, thanks
21:42:59 <petern> "an university" ? i dunno...
21:43:37 <Eddi|zuHause> petern: if you pronounce the "u" like god intended them to.
21:45:01 <petern> as i don't believe in a god...
21:45:08 <petern> i pronounce it properly
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21:45:28 <petern> # DIAMOND HARD BLUE APPLES OF THE MOON
21:47:36 <Wolf01> ok, I compiled fine this time... but after a look at the drawing code I closed the window :P
21:50:55 <SpComb> my German probably sucks when writing complicated emails like this one :/
21:51:29 <SpComb> but maybe I can pass myself off as a German who just wrote this out quickly
21:53:10 <el_en> why not write in swedish
21:53:12 <SpComb> but I've got the "mfg" and everything
21:53:30 <SpComb> I don't know swedish at all
21:57:00 <glx> Wolf01: just update libpng
21:57:09 <glx> I guess you already have zlib 1.2.3
21:59:32 * Belugas is rushing to the nearest bus station
21:59:41 <Belugas> nightall and good weekend
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22:34:16 <Prof_Frink> That's doing funny things to my terminal.
22:34:50 <Prof_Frink> It changes length when I highlight part of it!
22:36:34 <Elukka> goddamn but the mississippi has a huge number of major tributaries
22:36:40 <Elukka> and i cant find a decent map of des moines :/
22:38:13 * Sacro wonders where all the sheilas are
22:38:21 <Elukka> i cant decipher where this actually is
22:38:27 <Elukka> is the river to the east mississippi?
22:39:47 <Elukka> what's the one to the west`
22:40:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> a big empty void
22:40:21 <Nite_Owl> not sure what the one right next to the city is
22:41:06 <Nite_Owl> The one further west should be the Missouri
22:41:14 <Elukka> heh, there actually is a river piddle
22:45:11 <Prof_Frink> Elukka: Yes, it's just west of here.
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23:40:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> what about using freeform map edges?
23:40:30 <Elukka> what's a freeform map edge?
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23:40:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> no need for water at the edge
23:41:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> "Allow terraforming of the map edge" or something
23:44:08 <SmatZ> what version are you using?
23:45:12 <Elukka> something bizarre with the cargodest patch
23:46:22 <SmatZ> you know clean trunk won't be able to load your map
23:47:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> even future versions of cargodest are unlikely to load your map
23:47:24 <Elukka> i didnt think scenario files were that fussy
23:47:35 <Eddi|zuHause2> generally speaking: do not make scenarios with modified builds
23:47:41 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
23:47:55 <petern> scenario == save game with a different extension
23:49:15 <Elukka> it actually saves data related to cargodest in the scn file?
23:50:31 <Nite_Owl> if you still have the heightmap just load it into a different version - like clean trunk
23:51:32 <Elukka> i've spent about 6 hours doing rivers and stuff, so that wouldnt help much
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23:54:20 <Elukka> "Broken save game - Invalid chunk size"
23:56:51 <Zuu> Heh, built a nice (looking) highwaysystem in my SimCity4 map, but most citienses takes the bus or train so it is not very much used. :-)
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continue to next day ⏵
