IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-01-29
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02:42:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Yexo * r15291 /trunk/src/ (core/alloc_func.hpp station_gui.cpp station_gui.h):
02:42:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Cleanup: Move the station list widgets to their class from station_gui.h
02:42:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix: comment for ReallocT was wrong, the memory is not zeroed.
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03:07:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r15292 /trunk/src/unmovable_map.h:
03:07:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix(r15290): Incrementing something that is already set to the correct value is a bit of a no-no
03:07:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Also, protect against such misuse with an assert.
03:12:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r15293 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt station_cmd.cpp): -Feature [FS#2583]: Give a more meaningful message when towns refuse construction of noise-controlled airports
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07:30:24 <ccfreak2k> I visited bananas.openttd.org.
07:30:37 <ccfreak2k> I was a bit disappointed by the content found there.
07:37:28 <dihedral> ccfreak2k, it is the authors choice to publish stuff via bananas
07:37:28 <dihedral> and some have already uploaded updates
07:37:28 <dihedral> and others will latest with the release of 0.7 realize that their work will hardly be used if not in bananas
07:37:28 <Tefad> bananas they're the shit?
07:37:34 <ccfreak2k> I was hoping to see bananas.
07:40:44 <dihedral> ==5086== ERROR SUMMARY: 0 errors from 0 contexts (suppressed: 45 from 1)
07:40:44 <dihedral> ==5086== malloc/free: in use at exit: 14,400,046 bytes in 1,187 blocks.
07:40:44 <dihedral> ==5086== malloc/free: 3,829,168 allocs, 3,827,981 frees, 1,250,772,589,090 bytes allocated.
07:43:06 <dihedral> 23626 fairplay 16 0 389m 15m 3480 S 9 1.5 64:31.11 openttd
07:43:14 <dihedral> i have 1024MB mem on that machine
08:08:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15294 /trunk/src/yapf/yapf_rail.cpp: -Fix: accessing of inaccessible base
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08:53:21 <planetmaker> how's going, dih? :)
08:55:43 <dihedral> doing well pm, how about you?
08:56:23 <planetmaker> not bad either :)
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09:14:44 <dihedral> the one with the nick "Mark"
09:16:21 <dihedral> there is only with with the nick "Mark"
09:16:45 <planetmaker> Mark_ is the real one :P
09:16:51 <dihedral> yes - i know that :-P
09:17:08 <dihedral> Mark is just ideling in here....
09:17:31 <planetmaker> given the impressive nick list that can be said of 98% of the nicks here.
09:17:40 <planetmaker> And it doesn't matter, does it?
09:18:40 <Roest> why are you saying i'm idling?
09:18:55 <planetmaker> Roest: I said 98% :P
09:21:22 <dihedral> Roest, nobody mentioned your name, or am i mistaken?
09:23:51 <Roest> beside i saw svip, pm and dihedral talking, would have to count the nicks to determine if that's already 2% :P
09:24:31 <dihedral> 100 users, 3 makes more than 2% :-D
09:28:18 <petern> "can you clear out my mailbox"
09:28:27 <petern> "arrrrr! all my emails gone"
09:28:47 <petern> fortunately i am clever and kept a backup :p
09:29:51 <petern> FFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
09:30:37 <edeca> petern: Time to play with figlet ;)
09:30:47 <worldemar> time to breakfast >:]
09:38:50 <dihedral> boot people joining with the default nick name (configurable)
09:39:22 <dihedral> it is so annoying when they join
09:39:27 <dihedral> and then best 5 at a time
09:40:16 <dihedral> perhaps a check to match the first chars of the client name, so nobody joines with Player #1 either
09:40:25 <dihedral> or check the nick when they change their nick
09:40:36 <dihedral> so they dont rename to Player
09:41:10 <Roest> i nver checked, is Player the default for every language?
09:43:32 <petern> better idea: make the default name be blank, and don't allow joining (server and client side) if it is left blank.
09:44:38 <planetmaker> but then there needs to be a possibility to set the nickname from the GUI and not the openttd.cfg from within the title screen.
09:44:54 <planetmaker> currently you can only change it from a running binary when ingame afaik.
09:46:09 <planetmaker> err... mangled sentence.
09:46:22 <planetmaker> Nevertheless: you cannot change the nick in the join screen, can you?
09:46:51 * planetmaker gives petern a few more pebles and dots.
09:47:11 <planetmaker> he... I guess you can? :)
09:47:20 <petern> open the 'multiplayer' window
09:47:39 <planetmaker> At work it's a bit of a no-no. I always use autojoin :P
09:48:36 <petern> you can play the game but not open the lobby?
09:48:37 <planetmaker> I shouldn't start up OpenTTD on my workplace computer :)
09:48:59 <petern> in bright, er, black text
09:49:10 <planetmaker> he. sorry, yeah... I seem to recall faintly :)
09:49:17 <petern> el_en, yes, I couldn't be bothered to correct it.
09:50:23 <planetmaker> I wondered about what the error is with "Player name:" :)
09:50:24 <dihedral> petern, bank is good too
09:50:49 <dihedral> but making it an entry in the advanced settings would be good too
09:50:53 <petern> so said there was an error with it?
09:51:08 <dihedral> interface -> multiplayer
09:51:11 <planetmaker> sorry, I thought you :P
09:51:57 <petern> planetmaker, el_en was questioning me on "its" rather than "it's"
09:57:57 *** petern changes topic to "0.6.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (BaNaNaS: bananas, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs, Release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | 100% perfect English day."
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09:59:24 <Roest> can't we make it google translation day?
09:59:33 *** petern changes topic to "0.6.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (BaNaNaS: bananas, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs, Release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | 100% perfect English hour, 10am to 11am GMT."
09:59:46 <petern> You've got one minute!
10:00:26 <petern> Maybe 11am to 12am GMT will be 100% perfect French hour?
10:00:39 <Roest> that's ok, i go to lunch then
10:00:49 * planetmaker will be silent the next two hours given the conditions ;)
10:01:11 <Roest> btw is it 11 GMT or 10 GMT right now?
10:01:35 <edeca> I say dear chap, what's this "btw" you mention?
10:01:40 <petern> It is 10am GMT, so it's just started.
10:01:57 <planetmaker> oh, it's one minute past the hour ;)
10:02:15 <dihedral> petern, you should have done that when Ammler used to say a lot in here :-D
10:02:28 * Roest puts on his fake english accent
10:02:53 <DorpsGek> petern: Ammler was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 3 hours, 14 minutes, and 58 seconds ago: <Ammler> heya dihedral
10:03:21 <dihedral> thanks for highlighting me :-P
10:03:34 <petern> We all got highlighted.
10:03:56 <dihedral> not like if you had said @nicks :-D
10:04:29 <petern> Hmm, apparently I have a news server. How odd.
10:05:24 <Roest> That's better than thinking oyu have one and finding out you don't
10:06:55 <petern> Possibly. The server is nowhere near my network...
10:09:19 <Roest> he uses W8 for wait where's the spelling and grammar police
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10:10:49 <Roest> i'm still looking for that toaster they showed us in the introductionary cs lecture, the one that get the weather forecast fromt he net and prints little suns or clouds on your toast
10:31:00 <Mark> I'm just so busy with playing OpenTTD all the time (atm I have 5 games running)
10:32:33 <dihedral> Mark, i just never saw you here before ;-)
10:32:52 <Mark> I've been sitting here for a while now.
10:33:00 <dihedral> yes, hence i said ideling :-D
10:33:09 <Mark> My first nick was MarkMc/markmc and then Markk
10:33:28 <Mark> But since Mark was free I took it :)
10:34:07 <dihedral> yes - i figured as much :-P
10:34:16 <dihedral> you playing any games online?
10:34:33 <Mark> I'm thinking about starting with that :)
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10:47:04 <dihedral> petern, the patch i posted earlier (no players) however is a good basis for a bad nick list ;-)
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11:18:11 * edeca returns from tea refreshed and rejuvenated
11:23:46 *** petern changes topic to "0.6.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (BaNaNaS: bananas, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs, Release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots"
11:24:08 <edeca> petern: English hour is over?
11:24:53 <petern> it's past 11am GMT so yeah it is
11:25:09 <petern> come 'n 'ave a go if u think yer 'ard enough
11:26:01 <edeca> Now you just sound Northern :\
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13:04:42 <jerker> bye bye folks, dont have time to lurk here no more. continue the nice work with OpenTTD and keep building the best junctions there are!
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13:10:53 <petern> takes a lot of time to lurk
13:11:08 <edeca> Yeah, I dedicate an hour a day to IRC lurking
13:12:39 <dihedral> and nobody is really interested in those junctions... so all that effort kinda was for the fuzzy rear end :P
13:12:54 <Pikka> who's got a fuzzy rear end?
13:12:59 <edeca> dihedral: What junctions were they?
13:13:08 <dihedral> ones for a fuzzy rear end :-D
13:13:15 <dihedral> they are in the wiki
13:13:16 <edeca> Pikka: Are there prizes?
13:13:31 <dihedral> i have no idea what names he gave them
13:13:33 <edeca> dihedral: The generic "4 way" whatever ones?
13:14:43 * edeca invents the "4 dimensional n-way superbad clovercrossmergeogrifier"
13:15:20 <edeca> "The slopes and the sharp turns make trains go slower." - north american train set would kill that one :(
13:17:40 <edeca> Woah, someone call the rail police ;)
13:19:21 <dihedral> go five times round just to get to go straight ahead :-D
13:19:56 <canidae> one of my more political friends playing ottd wondered if there's a patch that makes the income depend on the distance from eg. the nearest powerplant/coal mine rather than the distance between the station coal is picked up on and the power station it's delivered to, anyone know something about this?
13:21:20 <petern> gah, no junction templates are needed :o
13:21:38 <dihedral> yeah - get your political friend to join and express himself in a way one can understand it :-P
13:21:43 <edeca> petern: Actually it's useful to look at to learn from :)
13:22:22 <edeca> dihedral: Translation: "why isn't cargo payment based on the distance between industries, not distance travelled"
13:22:31 <canidae> what? despite some difficulty translating it's not _that_ hard to understand? :p
13:22:54 <edeca> Answer is probably that there is no (except cargodest) idea of where goods came from. But maybe I'm wrong.
13:23:04 <edeca> canidae: No, I just work with obscure people.
13:23:29 <edeca> petern: I thought so, because I couldn't figure how payment would work otherwise (i.e. time in transit)
13:23:30 <petern> cargo payment is *not* based on distance travelled...
13:23:39 <canidae> no, distance from station to station
13:24:20 <canidae> but that means you can bypass several power stations as you earn more by longer distances (to a certain limit)
13:25:52 <Yexo> canidae: just image your idea is implemented. Now you have a profitable coal mine -> powerplant route (say it's 150 tiles long). You get paid for the whole 150 tiles since there are no other close power plants / coal mines. At this moment a coal mine opens 20 tiles from the powerplant. Should you now only get paid for 20 tiles instead of 150?
13:26:12 <canidae> Yexo: actually, i asked the very same question :)
13:26:22 <Yexo> canidae: no, you did not
13:26:25 <canidae> Yexo: his opinion is "yes, payment should drop"
13:26:30 <canidae> i asked him the same question :)
13:27:08 <canidae> hmm, lemme check log. i think he said something more
13:27:18 <edeca> Or perhaps you've got a supermega-steel mill bonanza with 50 feeding lines and 20 consumers, should you get less for delivering *further* to that rather than a local one?
13:28:14 *** Gekz__ is now known as Gekz
13:28:16 <Yexo> or you play with ECS vectors and want to deliver vehicles. (Nearly) all raw cargo industries accept them, but most of the time there are only 1/2 vehicle factories per map
13:28:19 *** Gekz_ is now known as Guest302
13:28:50 <edeca> Yexo: Heh, my current game has a car factory with a farm right next to it, I'd quite like a little more profit than 1 tile :)
13:28:52 <dihedral> is payment not based also on the rating of the cargo at the station, travel time, etc?
13:29:13 <Yexo> dihedral: no,only on travel time and distance between stations
13:29:19 <Yexo> between station flags actually
13:29:50 <Yexo> station labels, the sign with the station name
13:30:07 * dihedral hugs distant join stations
13:30:16 <canidae> he added "it's possible it should be based on that someone else delivers to a lower price"
13:30:42 <dihedral> to the same power plant or in the map canidae
13:30:52 <Yexo> canidae: I agree that the economic model of openttd could use some improvement, but it's not that simple
13:31:06 <edeca> dihedral: Yeah, they lead to some interesting uses. Like building a 1x1 station (or even a pretty newgrf tile) next to an industry and the main station miles away. Same for stations in towns
13:31:12 <edeca> dihedral: Though I try not to 'cheat' like that :)
13:31:47 <dihedral> Yexo, how come then, if time did not matter, i could have a maglev line and a steamer line, and the mag lev makes more cash?
13:32:09 <Yexo> dihedral: travel times matters, just station rating does not
13:32:14 <dihedral> edeca: that is not cheating
13:32:16 <canidae> dihedral: either to the same power plant or from the same coal mine. i'm not sure what makes more sense, economics isn't my thing
13:32:23 <dihedral> and a pretty newgrf tile is also a station in those situations
13:32:24 <Gekz> dihedral: it is cheating lol.
13:33:04 <Yexo> cheats are a feature too!
13:33:07 <edeca> dihedral: Heh well it can be abused for interesting purposes :)
13:33:16 <dihedral> not that much though
13:33:18 <Gekz> it's merely an exploitable feature
13:33:27 <dihedral> Gekz, tell you something shall i?
13:33:33 <Rubidium> well... just finish cargodest and then add the possibility for cargo to get destinations before they get to the station (i.e. destinations where there's no station yet like iirc simutrans)
13:33:34 <Gekz> all because it's a loophole doesnt make it ethically incorrect.
13:34:00 <dihedral> i worked for a company where all rma requests (over 600 appliances) were shipped to taiwan and back, just for repairs, and we made a profit
13:34:07 <dihedral> the client never got to know that had happened
13:34:08 <edeca> Rubidium: I don't follow what you mean about "destinations where there's no station yet"?
13:34:11 <Gekz> Rubidium: 1200 people want to go to a town with the population of 8!
13:34:22 <Gekz> edeca: people want to go to a town
13:34:28 <Gekz> so you put a station there
13:34:49 <edeca> Gekz: But would that show up as current demand, or potential but unfilled demand?
13:34:49 <dihedral> Geks: perhaps over the entire map yes :-P
13:34:56 <edeca> Gekz: i.e. does it affect your passenger rating?
13:34:57 <Rubidium> 'current' cargodest: when cargo gets to the 'origin' station it gets a destination somewhere reachable from that staton
13:35:18 <dihedral> Rubidium, which is tricky :-P
13:35:33 <dihedral> because sometimes it picks stations where the transport link cannot hold the load
13:35:33 <Rubidium> what I propose is that it determines a destination to any place (reachable or not) as extra difficulty
13:35:58 <dihedral> if there is no link for that route, you get the subsidy :-D
13:36:39 <canidae> Rubidium: that sounds pretty cool, would make the game more challenging
13:36:51 <Rubidium> so no cargodest == easiest, cargodest to reachable station == 'medium', cargodest to any destination == hard
13:37:04 <Rubidium> just means that someone needs to finish that
13:37:31 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: someone was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 0 weeks, 4 days, 18 hours, 45 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: * Someone here is gay
13:37:33 <edeca> Rubidium: In hard mode, would you suggest that your rating is affected by not delivering then?
13:37:38 <Rubidium> ^ preferable that someone ;)
13:37:49 <planetmaker> Everyone wants someone to work on it which means effectively noone will do it :P
13:38:43 * Rubidium still has challenges enough without cargodest, so I don't need it
13:38:57 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: I have not seen noone.
13:39:17 <DorpsGek> canidae: I have not seen anyone.
13:39:25 <Rubidium> client_name planetmaker noone
13:39:37 <Rubidium> dihedral: IT DOESN'T WORK! :(
13:39:39 <petern> implement supply and demand...
13:40:03 <petern> you set your own prices and the industries choose which to use :p
13:46:16 <dihedral> Rubidium, it's client_name <client-id> <new-name>
13:46:30 *** planetmaker is now known as noone
13:46:53 * Rubidium slaps noone into writing what noone wants to write
13:47:00 <dihedral> well, then you can do all the work noone
13:47:11 <dihedral> Rubidium, "wants" :-D
13:47:28 * noone doesn't do somebody's work :P
13:47:40 <noone> actually it's a registered nick :P
13:47:43 <dihedral> good, because it's anyones work actually :-P
13:48:10 <dihedral> i should register 'nickserve' .... enough people mistype it when they want to identify :-D
13:48:25 *** noone is now known as planetmaker
13:49:18 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: noone was last seen in #openttd 1 minute and 38 seconds ago: <noone> actually it's a registered nick :P
13:49:38 <dihedral> you could have left a more clever nick
13:52:25 <edeca> Yexo: That's quite cool (though the idea isn't explained well by the screenshots)
13:52:52 <edeca> Yexo: The economy throughout the year could also give rise to changing prices, could even possibly store some goods (e.g. wheat) in specialised stations
13:53:33 <Yexo> edeca: 1) It wasn't my idea nor my patch. 2) the patch is a complete mess
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13:58:24 <edeca> Yexo: Eh I just mean it's the beginnings of a good *idea*, implementation aside
14:05:20 <Elukka> i think those are my longest trains so far..
14:08:08 <SmatZ> hmm I should play Half-Life once agaain...
14:08:12 <edeca> Elukka: Sheesh, do they even accelerate? :)
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14:08:27 <Elukka> i have 4x cargo weight
14:08:39 <Elukka> they go to full speed just after they clear the station
14:08:45 <Elukka> well, full speed is 88 kph...
14:09:32 <dihedral> SmatZ, the oldie game or 2?
14:09:55 <Elukka> there's only one slope
14:10:01 <Elukka> those locos are powerful :P
14:10:58 <edeca> I'm starting to prefer more shorter trains in general, except for really long-haul
14:11:28 <Elukka> long trains look cooler :P
14:11:38 <Elukka> also, when that line was started there really wasnt money for more locos
14:12:47 <SmatZ> dihedral: both of them :) though I finished HL ~10 times, but HL2 only once ;)
14:13:03 <SmatZ> I was very impressed by HL speedrun :)
14:15:34 <dihedral> SmatZ, i had scripts that would make hl2 go into bullet time, which was a bunch of fun too
14:15:38 <dihedral> just took longer to play :-D
14:17:05 <dihedral> SmatZ, you also play css?
14:17:34 <SmatZ> dihedral: ont much, I didn't have original CD key...
14:17:47 <SmatZ> but CS is too boring for me :(
14:19:03 <SmatZ> the original unreal tournament, not 2003, not 2004
14:19:50 <petern> hmm, i have it installed at thome
14:19:52 <edeca> petern: Are you eversoslightly pedantic in real life? :)
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15:16:41 <petern> lol, another 'undo' thread...
15:20:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, quite ignoring
15:20:38 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
15:25:01 <Eddi|zuHause> "Trains have to turn right to go left." <- i wished they would scrap that sentence from every junction...
15:25:39 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: You prefer "it's a bit backwards, guv" ?
15:25:53 <lewymati> im trying to play on LAN
15:26:12 <lewymati> after client join to my server
15:26:12 <Eddi|zuHause> edeca: it is just irrelevant
15:26:30 <lewymati> its being disconected
15:26:41 <Roest> but what if trains have to go right to go left
15:26:46 <lewymati> tryied already few times
15:26:50 <lewymati> what could be the reason?
15:26:57 <Roest> clinet is the same version?
15:26:57 <Eddi|zuHause> all rail pathfinders handle the complete path
15:27:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so trains will not go lost
15:28:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "Speculation of angled track in the nightly builds under existing bridges" <- that looks not very up to date :p
15:30:11 <lewymati> ok, it was client firewall i guess
15:30:54 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: all train pathfinders are A* based, and find a path, if it exists
15:31:59 <Eddi|zuHause> YAPF is mostly feature-equivalent to NPF. it is only optimised for speed
15:32:39 <Eddi|zuHause> NTP is also a complete pathfinder, but not very extendible, which was the reason for developing NPF
15:33:07 <Eddi|zuHause> and OTP was removed from pathfinder options long before i found out about OpenTTD
15:34:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the only actual difference (except penalties) that i know of is that YAPF can handle paths that involve turning around in a depot
15:34:42 <petern> hence ideas about removing NTP/NPF that got forgotten...
15:35:28 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: Does anybody use those as a real path?
15:35:34 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: what about hash collisions?
15:35:41 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: Does it help with forced servicing or something?
15:35:52 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: i don't understand the question.
15:36:12 <Eddi|zuHause> edeca: yes, forced servicing. some people seem to do that
15:36:33 <petern> is there any reason to have NPF?
15:36:41 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: NTP uses static tables when it's searching
15:37:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know anything about the internals of NTP
15:37:22 <SmatZ> petern: actually, the major problem are ships...
15:37:28 <SmatZ> CPU load with many ships...
15:37:42 <petern> SmatZ, that affects NPF too
15:37:53 <petern> hence the original pathfinder is needed for ships
15:38:11 <SmatZ> petern: so you want to remove NPF and leave OPF only for ships?
15:38:30 <petern> i'd *like* yapf for ships to be fixed...
15:38:49 <SmatZ> there are real-game scenarios where either one of PFs does the lowest CPU load
15:38:51 <petern> while OTP is less intensive, it's .... urgh
15:39:13 <petern> isn't YAPF helped by having buoys?
15:39:45 <SmatZ> so is OPF ... OPF won't find a path when buoys are too far from each other
15:39:46 <petern> are they forced now? i believe originally with YAPF you could have orders at any distance...
15:40:22 <Aali> you need bouys with YAPF now too
15:40:24 <SmatZ> I think they are forced when you create the order, but not when you remove the buoy in the middle
15:40:28 <SmatZ> and similiar situations
15:41:11 <SmatZ> but it wouldn't be hard to just say "ship is lost" in the situation the next order's destination is too far
15:41:23 <Aali> I was just going to say that :)
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15:42:13 <Aali> and if you do that, you can drop OPF completely
15:42:32 <Aali> YAPF is "good enough" with ships over small distances
15:43:45 <petern> requires some kind of system to keep them up to date, for example if landscape changes
15:44:53 <Aali> there's just one small problem, someone has to implement it :)
15:45:04 <petern> Aali! such a good volunteer :D
15:45:18 <petern> isn't yapf cached anyway?
15:45:21 <Aali> sorry, no interest in ships
15:45:47 <petern> or ... that was the problem, it only caches nodes, and each water tile is a node?
15:45:49 <Aali> yapf caches rail layouts, no? not per-vehicle?
15:46:10 <SmatZ> maybe even each trackdir is a node
15:46:32 <SmatZ> but in water, there is a junction at each tile
15:46:51 <petern> so can yapf cache a node list... hmm
15:47:29 <SmatZ> // YAPF type 1 - uses TileIndex/Trackdir as Node key, allows 90-deg turns
15:47:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: yapf caches rail segments, i.e. continuous stripes of rail without junctions
15:48:16 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: and signals?
15:48:32 <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: which is what I meant to say
15:48:49 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: i think signal penalties are done differently
15:49:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. the segment cost considers the signals, but not the signal state
15:49:27 <Aali> actual signal penalties are recalculated every time, no?
15:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm not sure
15:49:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: for the first 10 signals, and the last signal, the signal state is calculated
15:50:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the number of 10 is configurable, i think
15:51:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe it was chosen with coop-style rail networks in mind, with signals every 2 tiles
15:51:29 <Eddi|zuHause> with "sparse" signalling, you could probably get away with 2 or 3 signals
15:52:04 <Eddi|zuHause> also, signal state is kind of meaningless with path signals
15:52:34 <edeca> Sheesh, signals every other tile?
15:52:46 <petern> yes, idiots, the lot of them
15:53:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe the signal penalty calculation was not updated for the default-red signals
15:53:22 <Eddi|zuHause> which may get you weird results
15:54:24 <glx> edeca: luckily it's now possible to build bridges over signals
15:55:29 <petern> "don't get a TN display, they suck"
15:56:14 <petern> neglecting to mention that other types have more latency
15:57:23 <edeca> glx: Yeah, whoever implemented signals/diagonal track under bridges deserves a big thank you :)
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16:08:04 <edeca> Mm, I've just tried gnome for the first time in ages and it's actually quite nice
16:08:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that were tron and celestar, afair
16:09:05 <Belugas> and rushed in by celestar, against tron's permission. based on tron's opinion, it was not ready to hit trunk
16:09:19 <petern> well it did have a few bugs :)
16:14:46 <Belugas> plus, iirc, tron had many more stuff he wanted to add
16:14:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Yexo * r15295 /trunk/src/road.cpp: -Fix [FS#2591] (r15190): Towns tried to build roads outside the map.
16:15:56 <edeca> Belugas: More stuff like what?
16:17:18 <SpComb> heh... is the freeform map edges thing in trunk now? :)
16:18:06 <Belugas> is it? ho.. my... is it really ?please... tell me it is....
16:18:18 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you are imagining this
16:20:17 * Belugas goes back to sleep... heerrr to work
16:22:25 <SpComb> all those invalid-tile behaviour things seem to hint at it
16:22:30 <Sacro> Belugas: to peruse some gentlemens' magazines?
16:22:38 <SpComb> there's a lot of assumptions in the OpentTTD code about the edge tiles of the map
16:24:26 <SpComb> did you fix all the unsigned-integer map indexes used in while loops?
16:24:40 <SpComb> they would wrap right around to four billion if initialized to zero
16:25:59 <Belugas> Sacro, i[ve got a wife. yuo know, a REAL woman? no need paper dolls, me ;)
16:26:24 <petern> i don't know if Sacro is aware of such things
16:27:44 <Yexo> SpComb: if you find any cases, please report them. openttd will assert / crash soon enough if you encounter one
16:31:38 <SpComb> hmm, sorry, that was ScaleByMapSize
16:32:17 <SpComb> the use of TileOffsByDiagDir was another one, running that on a tile at the edge was fatal
16:32:24 <SpComb> *TileOffsByDiagDir loops
16:33:51 <Yexo> SpComb: if you enable the setting, the tiles at the north border are MP_VOID tiles (so a 64x64 map is actually 62x62), most thing only run those TileOffsByDiagDir only on valid tiles
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17:41:03 <dihedral> what does the english say?
17:41:10 <Roest> pm why do you let me know?
17:42:56 <planetmaker> {WHITE}{TOWN} local authority refuses permission for airport due to noise concerns <-- @ dihedral
17:43:21 <planetmaker> if you're that Ralph of the German translation, then yes
17:43:34 <Roest> ^^ not that one, just one
17:43:37 <planetmaker> Because that Ralph obviously overwrote my submission :)
17:43:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the english one seems to be missing a pronoun
17:44:01 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: sure? Sounds ok to me in English
17:44:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd put a "this" in there
17:44:33 <Eddi|zuHause> as well as a "dieses" in the german translation
17:45:01 <planetmaker> des or dieses doesn't matter, does it?
17:45:15 <Roest> i'd actually would make it local authority refuses permission for aiport construction
17:45:39 <planetmaker> Roest: no. Noise is the reason which needs to be mentioned
17:45:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and i'd put "aus Lärmschutzgründen" at the end
17:46:04 <dihedral> Laermschutzregulierung :-D
17:46:37 <dihedral> pm, i think your translation is correct
17:47:06 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: also there: I think the important fact should be stressed by putting it last: you may not :P
17:48:08 <planetmaker> but I don't mind either. Most important to me is that not a general refusal can be read out of the message :)
17:48:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the important fact is not that it was refused, but why it was refused
17:48:42 <planetmaker> Like: you may build Tempelhof near the city centre. But not Berlin-Brandenburg international :)
17:48:52 <Eddi|zuHause> that it was refused can be seen by the red box appearing
17:49:07 <Roest> how about "town says no"
17:49:53 <planetmaker> my hirarchy is: error->error type->error reason :)
17:51:01 <planetmaker> it would IMO be more important to know (and distinguish) between "land isn't level enough" and "not allowed to build"
17:51:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and my reasoning is that the error type is already heavily influenced by the context action
17:52:23 <Eddi|zuHause> there are only few error types which can be caused by an action, the error reason is already enough to distinguish
17:52:26 <planetmaker> but when building an airport, you can get both of those types: "not suitable", "not allowed", "already owned" probably, too
17:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause> error type is important if there are many error reasons for one type
17:53:27 <dihedral> i need a netbubbles (www.netbubbles.de) or something of that nature
17:54:40 <Eddi|zuHause> not allowed: town rating, and not allowed: noise limit are the only reasons for that type (or did i miss one)
17:55:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and either of these reasons already imply the type
17:55:20 <dihedral> Roest, i am on the admin and one of the dev teams
17:56:11 <Roest> hmm u could link it to the number of trains in a public game
17:56:36 <dihedral> i am gonna link it to the build status on the continuous integration server
17:57:03 <Roest> Derzeit knnen leider keine Bestellungen angenommen werden! too bad
17:57:59 <dihedral> well, the guy lives here in karlsruhe
17:58:02 <dihedral> i have his address :-P
17:58:04 <Roest> 198 euro not exactly cheap
17:59:11 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: Those are the messages which the local authority may return. And therefore... you know faster that it's noise, if it isn't last in the sentence.
17:59:19 <planetmaker> and I think it sounds better :P
18:00:19 <Eddi|zuHause> what? the first and the last part of the sentence are easiest to read, the middle falls under the table if you are just skimming a text
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18:01:36 <planetmaker> omg, dihedral . You'd end up as mega geek, if you buy that!
18:02:17 <dihedral> if you get to trigger bubbles and light changes correctly
18:02:47 <planetmaker> you got a point with that, Eddi|zuHause
18:03:42 <planetmaker> still it sounds to my ears worse.
18:04:34 <dihedral> pm: i just need an alternative, as i cannot order that very thing
18:04:50 <planetmaker> dihedral: do it yourself :)
18:05:03 <dihedral> not enough time for that
18:05:15 <dihedral> ausbildungs projekt arbeit
18:05:17 <Roest> dihedral i think 10 of those would be totally awesome
18:05:21 <planetmaker> should be feasable. Nice weekend project, if you know the hardware and software stuff.
18:05:44 <dihedral> well... communicating with the hardware will be easiest
18:05:57 <planetmaker> actually... it might indeed be a nice semester task, too :)
18:06:49 <dihedral> you want to build it for me?
18:06:56 <dihedral> company will buy it from you :P
18:07:49 <Roest> your boss will want it in his office and will ask you why your websites aren't bubbling enough
18:08:18 <dihedral> the thing will be in the office of the dev team i work with
18:08:37 <dihedral> and after that there will be another one for the other dev office
18:23:02 <Roest> nice peter, maybe architecture isnt dead after all
18:23:23 <thingwath> isn't the number 16 that strange thing from ttd?
18:25:37 <thingwath> that is more an sculpture than architecture, isn't it?
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18:39:44 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, they have the hundertwasser building in darmstadt, but not the one in wien
18:42:42 <Roest> how about an undo button?
18:43:10 <dihedral> he's really asking for it
18:44:44 <Yexo> what is the easiest way to contact a translater? habell managed to translate "Manual" to "handleiding". A correct translation, but 100% wrong in context
18:46:14 <dihedral> is there not an email feature for notifying translators?
18:46:18 <dihedral> or is that still duff?
18:46:58 <Roest> i also want to contact this dutch guy
18:47:26 <Roest> i still wanna know how they make tomatoes from water
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18:48:04 <Belugas> shit... you've mist it
18:48:12 <dihedral> i mean the bus with all the people inside who want to know
19:02:12 <dihedral> it's a kind of magic
19:03:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i even know this song :p
19:04:29 <Roest> hmm every tape that spends enough time in a car radio turns into a queen album
19:06:10 <dihedral> brian may's son was once in the class my aunt tought
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21:00:41 <el_en> what happens if the disks of mirrored hardware RAID are changed to bigger ones?
21:01:30 <Roest> i read today is the 60th aniversary of murphy's law
21:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> el_en: the bigger drive is only partially used
21:02:15 <el_en> Eddi|zuHause: what about when eventually both disks are bigger than initially, and equal size?
21:02:52 <Eddi|zuHause> then you need to look if your raid controller has an "expand" feature
21:03:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and afterwards, expand the filesystem
21:04:35 <el_en> oh, it has "* Online Capacity Expansion and RAID Level Migration. "
21:12:57 <edeca> el_en: You mean, JBOD :)
21:14:29 <edeca> el_en: Is it real RAID, or fake RAID?
21:15:14 <el_en> very real, i wouldn't have written "hardware" otherwise.
21:15:30 <edeca> el_en: Even some hardware cards aren't real raid :)
21:15:45 <edeca> el_en: And no onboard 'hardware' RAID on desktop motherboards is real
21:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that heavily depends on the definiton of "real"
21:16:59 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: Doesn't do processor offload is #1
21:17:11 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: Battery backup for #2 (especially for RAID5)
21:17:26 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: Doesn't need shitty 'drivers' should probably be #1.5, but that normally comes with #1
21:18:00 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: Has more memory than my wristwatch? :P
21:18:51 <el_en> when the boss gave us big enough budget for a new server, i had no intention of wasting money on a fake raid.
21:19:44 <edeca> el_en: Heh sorry, I get grumpy when so many people on IRC brag about their amazing RAID setups and then moan that they don't wory right
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21:21:37 <el_en> that card costs something like 350 euros. 4 ports.
21:22:14 <edeca> I got burned by RAID once, since then I'm careful.
21:22:40 <Aali> I have an amazing software RAID setup, ph33r me!
21:23:09 <edeca> Aali: There's *nothing* wrong with software RAID if you understand it ;)
21:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause> what was your problem? switching raid controllers?
21:23:43 <Aali> and the box is pretty powerful and does nothing but serve files
21:23:53 <Aali> so I actually get great performance
21:24:21 <el_en> the fact that the root usually can't be on RAID makes software RAID less fault-tolerant.
21:24:32 <Roest> raid for speed or for safety?
21:24:41 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: Nah, mirrored 2 disks. Both filled (due to my wonky scripting probably). Then a block died on one, which killed the filesystem. fsck couldn't run because of the lack of space. I forget what happened to the backup drive, I think it was dead
21:24:48 <edeca> Roest: Both! But in different circumstances ;)
21:24:56 <Aali> I only need speed though
21:24:58 <edeca> el_en: It can in linux with a suitable initrd?
21:25:03 <Eddi|zuHause> el_en: root? that should not be a problem, at most /boot is
21:25:09 <Aali> I have an unmirrored stripe array
21:25:23 <Aali> all the data on it can be recreated from various sources
21:25:44 <Roest> maybe i'm lucky but i havent had a hd fail in 20 years
21:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> stripe is nasty... if one HD fails, the whole data is lost, not only the data on that failed disk
21:26:04 <Roest> so maybe some day i'll care about raids
21:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a failing hard drive
21:26:11 <edeca> Roest: What manufacturer for HDDs?
21:26:17 <Roest> until that i live in my own happy world
21:26:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and i am lacking like 100GB space to empty it, and send it in for possible warranty replacement
21:26:43 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: Setup a few gmail accounts!
21:26:43 <Roest> i had IBMs through the 90s, now it's samsung
21:26:59 <el_en> edeca: well yes, in redhat-based distros the installer creates the root and /boot on raid, iirc.
21:27:00 <edeca> Roest: Yeah, I want a 500GB F1, but nobody stocks them any more :(
21:27:04 <Eddi|zuHause> edeca: how many years do you expect me to upload this stuff at 64kbit?
21:27:11 <edeca> Roest: I looked at some specs, the samsungs look great
21:27:14 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: Just a few!
21:27:28 <edeca> el_en: Yeah, same for most if you don't install custom :(
21:27:37 <Eddi|zuHause> until then, i have no reason to bother with warranty anymore
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21:30:07 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: Besides, 100GB of disk space now is about EUR20!
21:30:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but i already bought a new 1TB HD for christmas
21:30:52 <Eddi|zuHause> half of which i got sponsored
21:31:42 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: As long as it wasn't a Seagate ;)
21:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the failing one is a seagate (but i think earlier model)
21:32:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the new one was a western digital
21:32:16 <Roest> would that be worse than WD?
21:32:35 <edeca> Shame about their finances ;)
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21:34:10 <el_en> kind of surprising that an Intel server motherboard has an integrated Matrox graphics card.
21:34:52 <el_en> and the motherboard also has EFI besides BIOS, how common is that?
21:35:11 <edeca> el_en: Intel are leading the development
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21:35:31 <Roest> i dont know why i just said that
21:49:22 <el_en> does anyone know why a user cannot log in to VMware Server 2.0 even though the group he belongs to is given the Administrator role in setup?
21:50:14 <el_en> giving the same role to the specific user does grant him the access to log in.
21:50:31 <edeca> Maybe you need to refit the engines? Or use PBS? Crikey, check #vmware on freenode ;)
21:51:19 <el_en> yes, forgot to mention, no additional grfs loaded in VMware!
21:51:51 <glx> el_en: create a new account for it
21:52:28 <glx> (and I hate the web interface :) )
21:53:12 <glx> and autofit guest doesn't work
21:54:36 <el_en> glx: i didn't notice any option to create accounts, and the system accounts and passwords seem to work otherwise.
21:54:40 <Roest> el_en you the the vmware total conversion renewal grf
21:55:09 <glx> el_en: yes I needed to create a new windows user with a password
21:55:24 <el_en> ugh, no windows, linux.
21:55:45 <glx> but I guess it's similar with linux :)
21:55:58 <glx> a user with password and correct rights
21:56:23 <el_en> did you try granting access to groups?
21:56:54 <el_en> because giving the administrator role to individual users seems to work, but giving it to a group does not.
21:57:28 <el_en> and wtf is the point of giving role (i.e. access) to a group if it doesn't imply that users of that group can enter.
21:57:32 <glx> I have "vmware" member of "Admins"
21:58:48 <glx> my other admin users don't have a password ;)
21:59:35 <el_en> m'kay, well since there are only 3 or 4 people who need the access, i might as well list them separately, but would be more elegant just to list the group.
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22:00:00 <el_en> since giving access to individual users does seem to work, and they can log in.
22:00:04 <Roest> wait you have admin user without a password?
22:00:19 <glx> I have a __vmware__ group but I don't know what it does
22:00:31 <el_en> Roest: is that surprising on windows?
22:01:12 <glx> Roest: yes my normal login doesn't have a password (mono user desktop)
22:01:17 <Roest> i would call it surprising for a system administrated by someone who knows what he's doing
22:01:55 <glx> the only way to login is to be in front of my computer
22:02:33 <Roest> and you have to clear the mine field to get there, if you passed the electric wiring
22:03:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you got to praise the person at microsoft who was wise enough to not allow remote login to users without password :p
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22:04:58 <bandi_zz> any developers around?
22:05:08 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: So that's on MS developer saved from hell
22:05:40 <bandi_zz> so I have a question about this hot new feature, called bananas
22:05:54 <bandi_zz> It works very nicely :-)
22:06:09 <bandi_zz> not exactly that type of question
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22:07:07 <bandi_zz> when I select a feature like an AI or grf
22:07:13 <bandi_zz> I can see its version
22:07:39 <bandi_zz> would it be possible to see the release/upload date as well
22:07:50 <bandi_zz> you know, just to feel its age
22:08:02 <glx> if there's a new version you are warned
22:08:06 <bandi_zz> opengfx 2.4 alpha doesn't mean much
22:08:53 <bandi_zz> but if I browse something new, then I can see wheter it is one week old, or like two years
22:09:22 <Roest> that info is kinda useless if there isnt anything newer tho
22:09:25 <glx> upload date are at most 2 weeks old ;)
22:09:46 <bandi_zz> maybe it will remain so :-)
22:09:53 <glx> even for 6 months old grfs
22:09:53 <bandi_zz> but I don't think so
22:10:04 <Roest> u still have to make sure your AIs dont evolve into skynet
22:10:18 <bandi_zz> is there a skynet check?
22:11:18 <bandi_zz> so you implemented it
22:11:27 <bandi_zz> but in which change set?
22:11:44 <bandi_zz> I don't want to grep through the whole sorce
22:12:47 <Roest> well it's something to be aware of, is your pc collecting raw materials yet or downloading human anatomy files from the net?
22:12:57 <edeca> Roest: Which pays better rates?
22:13:26 <bandi_zz> just playing sudoku, chess and go
22:13:34 <edeca> Roest: I've got nothing wrong with my computer harvesting organs, as long as I'm earning dollars
22:14:06 <bandi_zz> and I am actually using a laptop
22:14:13 <edeca> bandi_zz: A laptop *computer*
22:14:16 <bandi_zz> does it increase the risks?
22:14:17 <Roest> nothing wrong about that, it's just the take over the world thing that's where it's getting dangerous
22:14:32 <bandi_zz> @edeca ok, that's more precise
22:14:46 <edeca> Roest: Meh, that's why I've got the skynet2000 firewall
22:14:56 <bandi_zz> I can disable the wireless with a press of a button
22:15:06 <bandi_zz> it makes me feel more comfortable
22:15:37 <Belugas> bye bye, nighty night
22:16:13 <edeca> Roest: Realism is overrated
22:16:54 <bandi_zz> btw it would be nice two sort the industry list according to two aspects
22:17:08 <bandi_zz> like type first and production second
22:17:15 <bandi_zz> makes browsing more fun
22:17:20 <Roest> that what the suggestion board is for
22:17:35 <edeca> bandi_zz: That will cost 1/2 a pint of blood. Line up to donate.
22:17:53 <Roest> you can also suggest an undo button while you're at it
22:18:26 <edeca> Roest: Are you drinking?
22:18:51 <edeca> Roest: Detective skills.
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22:28:08 <el_en> glx: btw, do you know if some version of vmware-server-console works with server 2.0, or is the browser add-on the only option?
22:28:36 <glx> I didn't find any other way
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