IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-01-10
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00:00:12 <TrueBrain> ah, the world has entered
00:00:14 <TrueBrain> we are now all safe
00:01:47 <Sacro> petern: i created a custom shell script to pass it
00:02:31 <Sacro> you changed it after 0.6.3
00:03:05 <Sacro> you shoudl ask what version someone is running in future
00:03:23 <TrueBrain> what a nasty thing to say :(
00:04:13 * Sacro listens to the TTD music
00:06:31 <petern> well you were the one talking about it "working before" :p
00:06:47 <Sacro> that might have been using pulseaudio...
00:08:03 <TrueBrain> Yexo: do it like NoAI
00:08:30 <Yexo> I was afraid that was going to be the answer
00:08:36 <petern> why have a MAX_REGIONS?
00:09:18 <Yexo> petern: that'll be removed since I have to write custom save/load code anyway
00:10:15 *** cond_zenith has joined #openttd
00:10:16 <TrueBrain> Yexo: or do: town_name1, disallow_industries1, disallowed_industries1, town_name2, disallow_industries2, ...
00:10:51 <petern> TrueBrain has all the best ideas
00:11:10 <cond_zenith> who do I talk to if I am having trouble logging into the wiki?
00:11:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the admin of the internet
00:11:39 <TrueBrain> only the easiest ones petern ;)
00:12:01 <cond_zenith> lol Eddi|zuHause, I'll get right on that
00:12:53 <cond_zenith> seriously though, I had to try about 10-15 times to login yesterday
00:13:00 <cond_zenith> and today it just wont login
00:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> just talk about terrorism, bomb building and "raubmordkopieren", and at least mister Schäuble will get to you shortly
00:13:09 <cond_zenith> and I'm sure I have the right password
00:13:12 <TrueBrain> but you did succeed in the end?
00:13:28 <cond_zenith> yesterday I succeeded, today I didn't
00:14:05 <cond_zenith> maybe I need to try typoing my password, and I fluked it yesterday
00:14:54 <cond_zenith> the other thing that doesn't help is it doesn't tell me if I got the captcha right
00:15:52 <Sacro> when openttd closes, timidity keeps playing
00:16:14 <Sacro> that's a lie and you know it D:
00:16:15 <petern> this is because timidity is shit
00:16:24 <Sacro> but does OSS have midi support
00:16:33 <TrueBrain> finish the sdl_mixer patch, and stop using MIDI sound
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00:16:49 <petern> sdl_mixer plays midi fine ;)
00:17:00 *** OtherRhino is now known as WhiteRhino
00:17:13 <TrueBrain> even so, I would usggest to stop using MIDI :p
00:17:49 <petern> Sacro, run timidity an alsa sequencer mode, then call pmidi instead of timidity
00:17:50 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a proposal for FOSS compatible music...
00:18:26 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: WAV not good enough?
00:18:33 <knl> wait, you can load your own MIDIs on ottd?
00:18:40 <knl> other than the stock .gm files
00:18:42 <petern> also, are you still stuck with oss? haha
00:18:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean the music, not the music format
00:18:51 <cond_zenith> the gm files are midi files
00:18:54 <petern> knl: well you can replace the .gm files with ... other midi files...
00:19:01 <Nite_Owl> Need to feed - later all
00:19:14 <Aali> knl: you could also play whichever music you like in another stand-alone player!
00:19:31 <knl> yeah aali that's really amazing
00:19:38 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I am sure we can find a few composers :)
00:19:38 <cond_zenith> I've been playing OTTD music in another player
00:19:47 <cond_zenith> cause timidity sucks
00:20:03 <knl> well I dunno about you, but all I had to do to get the music to work was to >install< timidity
00:20:18 <knl> i didn't even have to reopen TTD, it started working right there >_>
00:20:34 <cond_zenith> I had to do that and flip a coin every time I started ottd
00:20:42 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: but, please, make them not as depressed as the opengfx creators...
00:20:59 <TrueBrain> (what is depressed about it?)
00:21:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the dark colours
00:21:23 <Sacro> petern: running timidity++ as a daemon faiols :(
00:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the empty looking buildings
00:21:29 <TrueBrain> make a 8bpp-bright blitter ;)
00:21:29 <Sacro> ALSA lib seq_hw.c:457:(snd_seq_hw_open) open /dev/snd/seq failed: No such file or directory
00:21:41 <Sacro> probably cos I don't have alsa
00:21:51 <petern> oh you and your fucking stupid oss only sound card
00:22:17 <petern> and you removing alsa support from your kernel?
00:22:19 <glx> seems you don't have hardware sequencer
00:22:22 <cond_zenith> people still use OSS?
00:22:29 <TrueBrain> does it still exist?
00:22:32 <knl> also I can't get over the fact linux only allows a single software to deliver sound to the speakers
00:22:40 <Sacro> and yes, 4.1 just came out
00:22:45 <world> deprecated, but exist )
00:22:55 <cond_zenith> knl: depends on sound card and driver
00:23:13 <cond_zenith> and recent ALSA's set up software mixing by default
00:23:16 <glx> knl: you just need a "mixer"
00:23:18 <world> Sacro: linux-2.6.28 says that
00:23:25 <TrueBrain> pulseaudio feeds multiple sounds to my soundcard :)
00:23:30 <glx> and force all apps to use it
00:23:32 <knl> but I don't really mind, I don't use ubuntu for pretty much anything
00:23:33 <Sacro> world: it's not part of the kernel source but it is still in dev
00:23:44 <Sacro> hmm, i should try kicking pulseaudio again
00:24:00 <TrueBrain> pulseaudio doesn't like my pausing mplayer ..
00:24:00 <cond_zenith> this fucking wiki is pissing me off
00:24:03 <TrueBrain> I can't resume after that
00:24:12 <world> by the way: what is "oss-only soundcard"?
00:24:16 <TrueBrain> cond_zenith can't win from simple software :)
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00:24:49 <petern> world, one without alsa support
00:25:29 <world> petern: never mind that possible )
00:25:33 <petern> probably some creative piece of shit that makes great claims but turns out to actually just be a DAC and everything done in software
00:26:49 <cond_zenith> well I think I solved half the problem
00:27:07 <cond_zenith> firefox was remembering the wrong password
00:27:27 <knl> that's probably an issue, maybe
00:27:43 <cond_zenith> what firefox was remembering should be the right one
00:27:49 <cond_zenith> but I guess I made a typo
00:27:59 <Aali> petern: actually, its the other way around, creative makes okay cards, their drivers suck balls
00:27:59 <cond_zenith> and duplicated that typo when I logged in yesterday
00:28:59 <petern> "okay" but nothing special
00:29:03 <petern> usually with hidden gotchas
00:29:10 <petern> like the emu10k's fixed 48000...
00:29:33 <petern> hehe, gravis did that :D
00:29:54 <petern> gravis ultrasound with 32 polyphony midi
00:30:28 <petern> except it ran at some stupidly low sample rate when using all the voices
00:30:52 <petern> was 32 with the rest done in software :D
00:31:19 <TrueBrain> tnx for your monologe :)
00:32:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14949 /trunk/src/ (126 files in 17 dirs): -Cleanup: pointer coding style
00:32:14 <TrueBrain> nice patch killer Rubidium :p
00:33:02 <Rubidium> should we de-DeMorgan some stuff too?
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00:37:50 <cond_zenith> well that's embarrasing
00:37:59 <cond_zenith> turns out my password was blank
00:38:40 <cond_zenith> why does the wiki even allow that
00:39:19 <petern> just to make you come on irc and embarrass yourself
00:39:51 *** cond_zenith is now known as ConditionalZenith
00:40:32 <knl> and then post it on bash.org!
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00:54:04 <ConditionalZenith> do signals still need to be 2 way for a train to pick the free one?
00:55:41 <Aali> if they are two-way, a train will NEVER pick the red one, which may be useful (and may also be bad) but is a bit of a hack
00:56:01 <Aali> in short, build one-ways unless you know you need a two-way
00:56:07 <ConditionalZenith> I just remember in the past, if they were one way, they would always pick the closest
00:56:17 <Aali> its not like that anymore
00:56:24 <Aali> pathfinders are much smarter
00:56:44 <ConditionalZenith> yes, it's come a long way since the origianal
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01:01:27 <goodger> the original pathfinder didn't seem to bother finding a path, but instead just drove in the general direction of the target
01:02:15 <Aali> thats how my "pathfinder" works when I'm going somewhere I've never been before :P
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01:06:17 <Eddi|zuHause> <Aali> if they are two-way, a train will NEVER pick the red one, which may be useful (and may also be bad) but is a bit of a hack <- there is a setting to turn that off...
01:06:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be default off, imho...
01:06:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but mo is too h, i suppose...
01:07:11 <ConditionalZenith> in which case should a train pick a red 2 way signal?
01:07:36 <Aali> if the red two-way signal leads to a better path :)
01:07:37 <ConditionalZenith> unless we make the pathfinder start looking at which way a train is going
01:29:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i found that treating signals as dead end generally only leads to lost trains
02:27:38 <DorpsGek> Belugas: someone was last seen in #openttd 50 weeks, 0 days, 7 hours, 35 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: * Someone here is gay
02:28:49 <ConditionalZenith> how will we get someone to do all our stuff if he wont come on IRC
02:29:22 <goodger> ConditionalZenith: go to his house and poke him?
02:29:34 <ConditionalZenith> I don't know where he lives :(
02:30:31 <goodger> yell "Someone! help!" and follow the first person who comes running toward you
02:31:59 * Belugas runs away from the hail
02:32:50 <Yexo> Belugas: about FS#2520, I think coolerkry wants to set the start date for new games to a specific date instead of only to a year. Your close messages seems to indicate you understood him differently
02:34:34 <Yexo> anway, I need sleep! good night all
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02:37:37 <Belugas> well... one day, people should really learn to express themselves more clearly
02:37:52 <Belugas> cannot GUESS what they want all the time
02:38:35 <goodger> Belugas: actually, in english, you are expected to. sentences mean more than the sum of their parts and sometimes are completely unrelated to their parts, it's maddening
02:39:32 <Belugas> shall we turn bugs.openttd.org to french only ?
02:39:43 <goodger> that might be amusing
02:40:06 <ConditionalZenith> until you get people who just run their bug reports through google translate
02:41:18 <Eddi|zuHause> in german, sentences mean exactly what they say, but you need at least a push down automaton to parse them, and when you translate them to english, they end up as three separate sentences
02:41:42 <goodger> actually google translate is shockingly capable nowadays
02:41:50 <goodger> it even correctly translated "superlative" into russian
02:42:39 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you notice with my sentences, they would never be as long as this if i were native english speaker
02:42:55 <ConditionalZenith> I'm not sure
02:43:14 <ConditionalZenith> I'm a native english speaker, and my sentences can get pretty long
02:43:34 <goodger> sentences can be pages long
02:43:43 <goodger> you just have to use a semicolon instead of a full stop
02:44:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i used sentences of half a page in an essay in german class.
02:44:57 <Belugas> anyway, fs2520 should be meaningless, even if he expressed it better, saying stuff like"you should be able to indicate the exact date at which the game should start"
02:45:01 <Aali> I can make infinitely long words and still be grammatically correct in my native language
02:45:05 <Eddi|zuHause> gave me bonus points for grammar, but malus points for style...
02:45:28 <Belugas> like... who fucking care about the 13th or 15th of june 1935 to start it?
02:45:40 <ConditionalZenith> "malus points", I'm not quite sure that's right
02:46:15 <goodger> ConditionalZenith: in latin, "bon" is the opposite of "mal"
02:46:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the funny thing with german sentences is, you can not only attach them to one another, but also split a sentence, and embed another whole sentence in them. the meaning of the original sentence can be completely changed by the last word, which may be several pages futher :p
02:46:27 <Aali> Belugas: and if you really want that, you could just start it in singleplayer, fast forward to that date and save it again
02:47:17 <ConditionalZenith> in english, malus doesn't mean "negative" or "penalty", like your context suggests
02:47:34 <ConditionalZenith> it can mean "evil", etc.
02:47:48 <Eddi|zuHause> you occasionally end up with huge stacks of finite verb forms, which you need to close the sentence-brackets ;)
02:48:12 <goodger> ConditionalZenith: it can mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean
02:48:14 <Eddi|zuHause> ConditionalZenith: sure you don't mean "malicious"?
02:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> malus is the opposite of bonus, that is what i learned, and that is what i mean
02:48:58 <goodger> *nod* malus is a genus of apples, it has no other defined meaning
02:49:18 <goodger> it being the opposite of bonus would make absolute sense etymologically
02:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> "das wäre ja logisch, wo kämen wir denn da hin"
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02:53:15 <ConditionalZenith> malicious can mean that too
02:53:34 <ConditionalZenith> but that is generally put with an action, rather than a noun
02:53:55 <goodger> ConditionalZenith: you're saying malicious is an adverb?
02:54:24 <ConditionalZenith> I think technically it is an adjective, it is just mostly used as an adverb
02:54:56 <goodger> er... no, it is an adjective
02:55:01 <goodger> the adverb form is "maliciously"
02:55:02 <ConditionalZenith> and malus is hardly used at all
02:55:16 <ConditionalZenith> you are right
02:55:40 <ConditionalZenith> I was meaning in common usage, one would usually apply malicious only to an action
02:56:09 <ConditionalZenith> as in "that action was malicious"
02:56:28 <ConditionalZenith> and typically one wouldn't say "that person is malicious"
02:56:45 <ConditionalZenith> even though it is probably technically correct
02:57:41 <ConditionalZenith> anyway, I'm no linguist, and it's probably showing
02:58:11 <goodger> I've said that before
02:58:21 <goodger> but I'm trolling... sorry
02:59:20 <ConditionalZenith> your trolling is more subtle than I am used to
03:00:06 <goodger> heh, ludicrous situation
03:00:27 <goodger> the top three quarters of english are latin
03:00:49 <goodger> in fact, the word "quarter" is latin
03:00:58 <goodger> or latinate, at least
03:01:35 <ConditionalZenith> I thought most european languages had many words largely rooted in latin
03:02:11 <Eddi|zuHause> english and german are fundamentally different in these aspects
03:02:43 <Eddi|zuHause> because england was konquered and developed by the romans, while the germans defeated them and drove them out of their territory
03:03:03 <ConditionalZenith> konquered should be conquered
03:03:12 <ConditionalZenith> more english craziness
03:03:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i noticed ;)
03:03:58 <goodger> ConditionalZenith: french, spanish, catalan, italian and portugese are all latinate; german, norwegian, swedish and dutch are germanic. english is germanic by grammar and common words, and latinate by complex words
03:04:01 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany, latin was only used by the highly edjucated people, for example clerics
03:04:32 <goodger> the same in england, but french merged into the common tongue around 1200
03:04:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r14950 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: MSVC projects and source list update
03:05:21 <goodger> we have three words for the same thing: "royal", "regnant" and "kingly" --- french, latin, germanic respectively
03:05:37 <goodger> it's a sordid mess in theory, but it has produced a lovely rich language
03:05:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the basic people spoke their germanic language ("theodisce" ~> "deutsch" meaning "spoken by the people")
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03:06:23 <Eddi|zuHause> it has traded a rich grammar for a rich vocabulary
03:06:29 <goodger> ah, that's where deutsch comes from. I always wondered why germany's name is different in all languages --- I suppose "allemand" is french for the same thing?
03:07:07 <Eddi|zuHause> no, "allemand" in french comes from a germanic tribe "Allemannen", which resided in the south west of modern germany
03:07:10 <goodger> it doesn't need a rich grammar, it has an incomprehensible system of auxiliaries and idiom \o/
03:07:33 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure about that deduction ;)
03:07:37 <goodger> that just leaves the issue of the word "germany"
03:07:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that's of latin roots
03:07:59 <goodger> which as far as I can tell was plucked from the air by the English in the late 19th century
03:08:31 <Eddi|zuHause> they called the land they were trying to conquer "germania"
03:08:49 <Eddi|zuHause> until they were driven out of there at 9 A.D.
03:09:03 <goodger> 9 AD? sounds a bit specific?
03:09:11 <Eddi|zuHause> in the so called "battle of teutoburg forest" or "varus battle"
03:09:42 <goodger> the roman empire amuses me because the US has clearly not learned from the story of its collapse
03:09:45 <Eddi|zuHause> 9 A.D., as in the year 9 after christ's supposed birth
03:10:20 <goodger> thought you meant the ninth century until you specified a battle
03:10:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that's one of the few battles that were called after the losing side
03:10:54 <goodger> I really should sit down and read up on history. my understanding even of 1970s britain is pretty appalling
03:11:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of THE most influential turning points in europe's history
03:12:10 * goodger dutifully looks it up here and now
03:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a saying in germany
03:13:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "what happend in the year 59 A.D.?"
03:13:31 <Eddi|zuHause> "the 50th anniversary of the battle of teutoburg forest"
03:14:39 <goodger> I feel weird talking to foreigners because my country has been politically stable since the 1500s. it's something of a unique case
03:15:00 <goodger> germany has not even been stable since I was born :S
03:15:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that was after you were invaded 6 times ;)
03:15:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r14951 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Revert: partly what has been done on r14950. That would teach me to update repos before
03:15:37 <ConditionalZenith> My country just has not much history
03:15:55 <ConditionalZenith> (Australia that is)
03:15:57 <goodger> ConditionalZenith: indeed :P
03:16:29 <goodger> "if we dumped a load of convicts on an island and left them to it for 200 years, what would they say to us on our return?" "g'day."
03:16:33 <Sacro> about as much history as strangeways
03:16:50 <ConditionalZenith> well there were a lot of non-convicts who came too
03:16:59 <goodger> yeah, I know, it's a joke :P
03:17:04 <ConditionalZenith> and most of the convicts had only committed minor crimes
03:17:30 <ConditionalZenith> and personally, I don't say g'day
03:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: incidentally, the inherent instability of germany can be traced back to the outcome of the battle in 9 A.D. ;)
03:17:50 <Sacro> goodger: just don't go to brisbane
03:18:16 <goodger> the worrying thing is that for 100 years, the US was doing rather better than the UK, despite being founded by a lot of religious nut-jobs we had effectively deported; and now australia is doing _much_ better than us, despite being founded by a lot of convicts that we had officially deported
03:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause> (several times removed, of course)
03:18:42 <ConditionalZenith> how are you defining "better"?
03:19:43 <goodger> ConditionalZenith: well, the US was a beacon of freedom and egalitarianism (unlike the UK even now), and (again unlike the UK) australia does not have record-breaking budget deficits and a recession
03:19:57 <ConditionalZenith> ahh, well we don't yet
03:20:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the sad thing is, the USA started to perform "better" once germany started to evict... people...
03:20:19 <ConditionalZenith> wait a bit until the US gives us a recession
03:20:35 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like 2 months ago?
03:20:50 <ConditionalZenith> yeah, it will take time to hit us badly tohugh
03:21:24 <goodger> ConditionalZenith: I am informed that the australian dollar has collapsed along with the iron ore export market, but that unemployment is not skyrocketing due to the use of a large budget surplus to fund a civil engineering programme that will shortly create internal demand for the same iron ore
03:21:46 <ConditionalZenith> well I haven't followed things that closely
03:21:51 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: "people"? are we talking about 1946?
03:21:52 <ConditionalZenith> but that sounds about right
03:22:10 <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: you seriously need to learn history...
03:22:38 <Eddi|zuHause> 1933-1945, nazi-reigned germany
03:22:50 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: you said worryingly. I know a number of germans were naturalised into the US in the years after the war ended
03:22:52 <ConditionalZenith> 1945 or 1944?
03:23:33 <ConditionalZenith> I thought the allies occupied Germany in 1944
03:24:14 <Eddi|zuHause> they hardly managed to set foot on continental europe in 1944
03:24:38 <goodger> ergo, if those germans included former nazis, who might be assigned the status of "people" including the quotes rather than people, then one might think it a sad thing that they improved the situation in the US
03:24:58 <goodger> do you mean the 19th-century US immigration from europe?
03:25:47 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean the massively increased amount of "non-aric" people who were fleeing from suppression and imprisonment, potentially death
03:25:53 <goodger> ConditionalZenith: comparatively, the UK is almost entirely dependent upon its banking sector, which is of course collapsing due to the subprime mortgage cock-up, and its retail sector, which is collapsing because it requires funds from the financial sector. we have barely any manufacturing industry left. to top it off, we have massive budget deficits, caused by a chancellor who for ten years thought he could spend more and
03:25:53 <goodger> tax less, but conceal it by awarding contracts to private companies
03:26:02 <Sacro> In Windows Internet Explorer 7, a Web site cannot set a cookie if the following conditions are true:
03:26:05 <Sacro> * The Domain attribute is in uppercase characters. * The Domain attribute has an odd number of characters.
03:26:43 <ConditionalZenith> "In Windows" well there's your problem :P
03:26:45 <goodger> Sacro: send the complete text of what you're reading to the Daily WTF
03:28:29 <goodger> the subject of 1933-1945 germany makes me squirm. I constructed a few political ideas that I later realised were implemented by the nazis, and felt rather sick at having thought they were good
03:29:04 <Belugas> hahahaha!!!! "I take it upon myself to" <----- lovely!!
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03:29:51 <Eddi|zuHause> several "concepts" that were implemented under the nazi reign are still valid
03:30:06 <Eddi|zuHause> for example that the government collects taxes for the churches
03:30:26 <Eddi|zuHause> or the "Autobahn" system that they used to reduce unemployment
03:30:35 <goodger> yes, they were good ideas
03:30:48 <goodger> I refer to the practise of shooting disabled people
03:31:06 <goodger> or, if The Pianist is anything to go by, throwing them off balconies
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03:31:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that is a less common practice, nowadays :p
03:32:18 <Sacro> it's kind of stopping evolution
03:32:46 <joachim> "04:09 < goodger> we have three words for the same thing: "royal", "regnant" and "kingly"
03:32:58 <goodger> yes, that's what I thought --- could we accelerate the evolutionary process by allowing people to die where they would die in the wild?
03:33:17 <goodger> no, I later concluded, we must not
03:33:19 <joachim> so do we (.no), not special
03:34:12 <goodger> ConditionalZenith: heheh
03:35:45 <goodger> my current ethical dilemma is, is it ethical to kill a potential human because they will be born with cystic fibrosis or the "breast cancer gene" or Down's syndrome? currently I think "yes" for nonviable foetuses
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03:36:36 <goodger> the difficulty lies in determining when something stops being an organism and starts being a human
03:36:55 <joachim> did you consider any human will probably contribute in earth's destruction?
03:37:13 <Tefad> holy crap is this #openttd or #crazyethics
03:37:30 <joachim> goodger: what? is a human not an organism?
03:37:44 <thingwath> umm, being human and not organism is not very easy
03:38:03 <Tefad> but yes that is an ambiguous statement
03:38:13 <goodger> I mean an organism as in, a life-form but not a person
03:38:30 <Tefad> sadly organism has no exceptions
03:38:30 <goodger> when does a fertilised egg turn into a person?
03:38:56 <joachim> goodger: what is your earliest memory?
03:39:01 <goodger> sentience appears only at age three-ish
03:39:26 <Tefad> i think i remember being two
03:39:40 <Tefad> like five memories or something
03:40:00 <goodger> joachim: my third birthday party, only brief glimpses though. earliest memory I have of having an opinion on something specific is when I was four
03:40:27 <goodger> oh, I remember moving house aged three, as well
03:40:29 <Tefad> i remember killing a hamster when i was 3 or so
03:40:32 <joachim> ok. you started being a person about three then, should be okay to kill you until that
03:40:47 <goodger> I find that morally unacceptable
03:40:49 <thingwath> I have no real memories about anything before ten years :) just random fragments
03:40:52 <Tefad> i didn't know about suffocation and air-tight containers...
03:41:06 <goodger> Tefad: ah. I'll bet you didn't know about death either
03:41:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you can have centuries worth of discussions on this topic
03:41:10 <joachim> well, i think the transition you're asking for happens well after birth, not before
03:41:15 <Tefad> goodger: not really : D
03:41:27 <Tefad> i think i was more along the lines of "aw i broke it"
03:41:40 <Tefad> but i knew my mother would be pissed so i hid it from her
03:42:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the catholic church thinks even "potential humans" (as in sperms) should be cared for the same way as humans
03:42:32 <Tefad> also at age 7 i knew how certain things worked better than how my mother did
03:42:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they are called "computer" :p
03:43:05 <goodger> I would be profoundly disgusted if someone proposed killing babies aged two because they had a hereditary disease. I think we have to go on the date when the organism can survive outside its mother
03:43:27 <Tefad> goodger: homeostasis it is.
03:43:48 <goodger> Tefad: I remember initially not being able to fathom reading and then suddenly finding it pathetically easy
03:43:51 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever point you chose, there are unlimited amount of people who will argue against you
03:44:16 <Tefad> Eddi|zuHause: indeed. i don't find it a topic to have a firm opinion in
03:44:19 <thingwath> they are all going to die anyway, so why should I care...
03:44:20 <joachim> we need to focus on defending against AI
03:44:21 <Tefad> more of a consensus thing.
03:44:27 <goodger> and also the twenty-four-hour clock; I couldn't understand that at all for ages, and then, shortly afterward, I didn't know about analogue clocks
03:44:32 <ConditionalZenith> viability outside the womb depends on the level of medical technology available
03:44:48 <Tefad> ConditionalZenith: zero medical technology permitted.
03:44:49 <goodger> ConditionalZenith: shall we say an absence of medical technology?
03:44:58 <Tefad> that isn't homeostasis if machines are involved.
03:45:19 <ConditionalZenith> well there are premature births, which would have resulted in the baby's death
03:45:25 <Eddi|zuHause> let's head back to the stone ages, where child death rate was >70%
03:45:34 <Tefad> Eddi|zuHause: sounds like a plan
03:45:36 <thingwath> Tefad: then expect like 1/5 of losses, at least
03:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and often dragged the mother with them
03:45:49 <Tefad> would keep stupid people from having sex
03:46:06 <Tefad> if they know it could end in death or great emotional discomfort
03:46:20 <goodger> wait, wait, we're not talking about withholding medical treatment
03:46:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that idea worked back then, either :p
03:46:40 <goodger> we're talking about the age at which a foetus has human rights
03:46:56 <goodger> I agree with "homoeostasis"
03:47:10 <thingwath> 18 or 21, depending on country where you are ;)
03:47:11 <joachim> you are assuming a philosophy where humans have rights
03:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: sure, if you argue about withholding genetic treatment, you may as well argue about medical treatment
03:47:36 <goodger> I'm not talking about withholding genetic treatment at all
03:48:07 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you are doing "genetic conditioning" of a population
03:48:25 <goodger> I'm talking about the age at which a human foetus goes from being something that can be discarded because it's broken to being a human being that you must not murder
03:48:53 <goodger> which is the problem with genetic screening
03:49:26 <goodger> if you detect that a foetus has Down's syndrome, should you abort it? what should be the maximum age beyond which you must _not_ abort it?
03:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also argue the same way the other way around, when does someone stop to have the right of maintaining his "alive" status (as in aided deaths in hospitals)
03:50:33 <joachim> or should there be a maximum age...
03:50:36 <Eddi|zuHause> when do you judge "higher values" over something that the person in question might object to, if it had the chance?
03:50:37 <goodger> my cold clinical mind tells me to abort it unless it is capable of homeostasis, because its quality of life will be so poor, but I'm not sure I could bring myself to kill a living thing
03:51:08 <ConditionalZenith> joachim: age isn't the sole determiner of quality of life
03:51:08 <joachim> how do you know it's quality of life will be "so poor"?
03:51:09 <Eddi|zuHause> or when do you let the next-of-kin decide?
03:51:26 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: when the patient is incapable of making a rational decision
03:51:42 <joachim> many people live great lives with down's
03:51:57 <goodger> yes, but their lives would be infinitely improved without it
03:52:14 <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: exactly, so then turn that around again, when does a person start to be able to do "rational" decisions?
03:52:15 <ConditionalZenith> goodger: that argument can be made with almost any condition
03:52:37 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: a foetus can't make any form of decision, you have to decide for it
03:52:50 <goodger> I'd say you should analyse the individual's psyche
03:53:05 <goodger> ConditionalZenith: I know, I'm using Down's as an example
03:53:34 <Eddi|zuHause> so it would be ok to kill a 3 year old that is diagnosed with down's syndrome, because it cannot make a rational decision?
03:53:35 <ConditionalZenith> I just don't see where you are going. Is that an argument for aborting?
03:53:52 <Eddi|zuHause> simply by their parent's decision?
03:54:05 <goodger> if I conceived a child [not bloody likely] and the screening process revealed cystic fibrosis, as a better example, I would find myself wanting to abort it because such a child does not deserve such suffering throughout its shortened life, but not wanting to kill the baby because it deserves life anyway
03:54:42 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: no, that baby has already been born --- and no, I do not know why that makes a difference to me
03:54:42 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what that is...
03:55:01 <Eddi|zuHause> does that have a german name?
03:55:14 <thingwath> do you really want to care about child with Down syndrome, if you don't really have to?
03:55:32 <ConditionalZenith> do you want to care for any children if you don'
03:55:38 <joachim> Eddi|zuHause: 04:09 < goodger> we have three words for the same thing: "royal", "regnant" and "kingly"
03:55:40 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: Mukoviszidose
03:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it's also an interesting fact... most medical terms have a perfectly simple german variant, but the english use latin-based terminology
03:55:41 <ConditionalZenith> damn my keyboard
03:56:59 <goodger> thingwath: I don't consider the parents wanting to care for the child a valid point. to say "abort, I don't want to have to deal with a Down's child" would be incredibly weak and selfish
03:57:36 <joachim> have you met anyone with down's?
03:58:52 <goodger> joachim: yes. I can't imagine he was aware of having it. it was decidedly... well, pitiful is too harsh, but I can't think of a better word
03:59:07 <goodger> I am aware of sounding like a monster while saying that sentence
03:59:19 <joachim> did he seem to suffer?
03:59:49 <goodger> not explicitly, but his quality of life was certainly reduced
04:00:07 <joachim> i know about a bunct of people "suffering" from down's, and they live richer lives than many of us normals
04:00:08 <thingwath> goodger: Is it selfish to expect something in return when having a child, which is... very expensive and hard work?
04:00:10 <goodger> down's is a very bad example, sorry
04:00:34 <joachim> might be our social system, but i don't think down's is a very good example
04:00:43 <goodger> thingwath: "you touch it, you bought it!"
04:00:57 <OtherRhino> You could think that a child with Down's syndrom doesn't have the same Quality of Life scope that someone without it has. Maybe for him, he's at the high end of his scope.
04:01:24 <goodger> OtherRhino: I consider absolute values more important
04:01:35 *** OtherRhino is now known as WhiteRhino
04:01:46 <goodger> joachim: of quality of life. I know it's not measurable
04:02:14 <WhiteRhino> If a person is born blind, they know nothing but being blind; their scope of Quality of Life involves being blind.
04:02:35 <goodger> to say that a man's quality of life is good compared to his expectation does not negate the fact that his quality of life is poor compared to others'
04:03:35 <thingwath> goodger: But I think we assume, that I know this before the birth.
04:04:02 <WhiteRhino> I dunno. I think that if someone doesn't know more than what they were born with, then you can wish they had been born "normal" but feeling sorry for them doesn't fit as well. The person could be having a happier life than most "normal" people.
04:04:22 <goodger> well, if they are, then fine
04:04:42 <thingwath> Most likely he has. But what about the parents?
04:05:04 <joachim> what about people who experience life on a higher level than you, goodger
04:05:34 <goodger> if he is not happier with the condition, as in the vast majority of heritable diseases, then it would be better for him not to have it; and at that point, you must compare having the condition to not living, in terms of suffering
04:05:39 <Eddi|zuHause> "relative" to which "authority" do you define "absolute" "values"?
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04:05:44 <goodger> joachim: what about them?
04:05:50 <joachim> should they abort you?
04:06:09 <goodger> they didn't need to, I very nearly aborted myself
04:06:09 <joachim> you won't reach their absolute value of "true life"
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04:07:07 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: I think you have to define it as an index
04:07:55 <goodger> joachim: if I am suffering with the condition I hypothetically have, then it may well have been more humane to abort me rather than allow me to live and suffer
04:08:33 <joachim> but then, most people will suffer during many and long periods of their lives, it's part of it
04:09:07 <goodger> I would certainly be happier without asperger syndrome, but not to the extent that I would rather not exist than have it
04:09:43 <joachim> well, humans aren't objective when it comes to not existing
04:09:55 <goodger> joachim: basic principle of sentience: sentient beings shun suffering. if you think suffering is part of the human experience you're correct, but if you think it should not be minimised, then that would class you as some sort of sadist
04:10:28 <goodger> yeah, I prefer to exist
04:10:53 <OtherRhino> What about the medical saying "If it hurts, that means it's working?" =P
04:11:19 <thingwath> It is not so great to be.
04:12:01 <joachim> infinitely greater and worse than not to be.
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04:12:20 <goodger> unfortunately if I had been tested positive for some heritable condition, my parents could not ask me [as I am now] whether I would rather not exist, nineteen years ago, because I [as I am now] didn't exist nineteen years ago. they would have had to make the decision themselves
04:13:37 <goodger> ^ the preceding sentence contained clauses of extreme temporal complexity and should not have been read by young children
04:15:39 <goodger> trying to explain that sentence causes me to think of myself as an emergent property of a neural network. this is getting rather metaphysical
04:16:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, like the kind of young children that sits up at 5AM and reads IRC channels of supposed train simulation games
04:16:37 <WhiteRhino> Supposed? Now you're saying TTD may or may not exist? >.>
04:16:57 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: a joke. "the following program contains scenes of extreme violence and should not be viewed by young children" is used on US television
04:17:18 <WhiteRhino> Day is night and night is day. The rain is falling up!
04:17:50 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany they only use phrases like "Diese Sendung ist für Zuschauer unter 16 Jahren nicht geeignet"
04:18:45 <goodger> we just have a watershed hour
04:19:02 <goodger> before 9pm, very limited content restrictions
04:19:06 <goodger> after 9pm, anything goes
04:19:46 <WhiteRhino> Meanwhile over here I can still watch stuff like Curious George at like 2am.
04:20:02 <goodger> WhiteRhino: I didn't know the president had his own television programme
04:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> it's more differentiated here, i think, something like: at 20:00, 12 years, 22:00, 16 years, 23:00, 18 years
04:20:20 <WhiteRhino> That's just bad. =P
04:20:39 <goodger> WhiteRhino: you must admit, there are definite similarities
04:20:48 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: makes limited sense ^_^
04:21:02 <WhiteRhino> Just because the President of the last eight years looks vaguely simian.. >.>
04:21:23 <goodger> ha! "vaguely" indeed...
04:21:37 <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: means if you show 24 at 22:00, you have to cut more scenes than if you show it 23:00
04:21:55 <Eddi|zuHause> and before that, you shouldn't even bother
04:22:18 <goodger> you have to cut scenes even at the 18 rating? :S
04:22:38 <WhiteRhino> You can say "asscrack" and "bitch" on TV, but one radio station I know of will cancel out the word "porno" in a particular song. *shrug*
04:22:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if they "have to", but it is very common
04:22:57 <WhiteRhino> And those words are said at 7pm weekdays.
04:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> usually scenes of extreme violence...
04:23:18 <joachim> Eddi|zuHause: in germany?
04:23:25 <goodger> the problem with having the 18 rating at 2300 is that, by the time a film ends that starts at 2300 for ratings purposes, it will be 0040, which is too late for most >18-year-olds to go to bed
04:23:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they cut like 10 minutes off each dexter episode...
04:23:54 <Eddi|zuHause> which aired after 23:00
04:24:07 <goodger> WhiteRhino: the BBC has subtly introduced the word "bitch" into EastEnders, which is watched by people aged 8 and up, and is broadcast at 7:30
04:24:21 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: some scheduling thing, surely?
04:24:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't watch it, because the dubbing is so extremely bad
04:24:44 <goodger> dubbing is always extremely bad.
04:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause> not only scheduling
04:24:58 <thingwath> dubbing is sometimes good :)
04:25:05 <goodger> trouble is, subtitles are not accessible to the blind
04:25:16 <joachim> only if you can choose audio channels
04:25:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, dubbing is potentially degrading quality, but even then, dexter was at the extreme lower end of the scale
04:25:40 <goodger> so you kind of have to dub it _and_ provide subtitles in order to make it accessible
04:25:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it was done by the second cheapest dubbing company in germany
04:25:57 <Eddi|zuHause> and dubbing is a big market in germany
04:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's not like there are only 2 companies
04:26:52 <Eddi|zuHause> shows that are known to have exceptionally good dubs are "House" and "Scrubs"
04:27:17 <goodger> you're missing out on the legendary voice of hugh laurie!
04:27:27 <joachim> i think the last time there were complaints about norwegian tv were when the public state broadcasting showed porn
04:27:36 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, i have not seen a single episode of house
04:27:43 <joachim> other than that, anything goes :)
04:27:47 <goodger> you know, his american accent is so good that most of the production staff never realised he was English
04:27:57 <goodger> including the director and casting agent
04:28:13 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a law in germany against broadcasting pornography
04:28:18 <goodger> (he uses the accent all the time on the set, to stay in character)
04:28:22 <WhiteRhino> I know I didn't 'til I saw him on something like Conan O'brien.
04:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> which lead to the invention of the "soft porno"
04:29:01 <goodger> WhiteRhino: I suggest you investigate "Blackadder the Third"
04:29:23 <goodger> it involves hugh laurie in his natural habitat: an english accent and a silly costume
04:29:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i associate "blackadder" with something mr. bean-ish
04:29:41 <joachim> and then he says his limp is fake
04:29:48 <joachim> and that he's not really a doctor
04:30:22 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: it has the same actor, but with spoken dialogue :P it's very good indeed, very biting satire
04:30:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it aired a long time ago, here...
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04:31:35 <goodger> here also, it was made in the 80s
04:31:42 <goodger> we repeat it every so often ^_^
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05:04:08 <WhiteRhino> Hmm. Perhaps I should play some Diablo tonight.
05:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever "night" is at your place
05:08:46 <WhiteRhino> Well, as it's 12:08am, I suppose it's technically Saturday morning now.
05:09:35 <WhiteRhino> I just have to decide between a standard character with which I could later play online or multiplayer, or a character in the Hellfire addon which I also own. >.>
05:26:21 <WhiteRhino> I think Battle.net is down. >.>
05:29:24 <WhiteRhino> I could still play via lan. It seems I'm having trouble finding a v1.09 patch for the game that's not a dead link.
05:30:08 <WhiteRhino> If the one at FilePlanet doesn't work then I guess I email Blizzard and ask why all the links on their support page are dead. =P
05:30:55 <goodger> WhiteRhino: suggest you try gameshadow
05:33:23 <goodger> I think I need a new CO detector
05:33:36 <goodger> this one is emitting a faint whistling noise and has "made in west germany" written on it
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05:34:26 <Eddi|zuHause> well, probably it is 20 years old then...
05:34:49 <goodger> also, when I plugged it in this afternoon, it tripped the circuit breaker
05:36:11 <goodger> hmm, apparently the sensor elements are meant to last three years
05:39:21 <goodger> I am concerned that wikipedia contains advice on how best to commit suicide using carbon monoxide
05:39:49 <goodger> "as carbon monoxide poisoning via car exhaust has become less of a suicide option, there has been an increase in new methods of carbon monoxide poisoning such as burning charcoal or other fossil fuels within a confined space, such as a small room, tent, or car."
05:42:03 <WhiteRhino> That's not advice, that's just information. =P
05:43:10 <goodger> it sounds very much like advice
05:43:28 <WhiteRhino> With a busted CO detector, is sleep the best option? >.>
05:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause> it's wikipedia, you can always edit it...
05:43:50 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: the admins appear to dislike me
05:45:00 <goodger> WhiteRhino: the wood burner on the other side of this wall is not currently running, and I only installed the detector yesterday [after complaining that the new wood-burner might generate CO and I might get poisoned by it _again_]
05:45:27 <WhiteRhino> Ah. Just sayin'. =)
05:45:34 <goodger> I think if the air contained an acutely toxic dose I'd have been knocked out by now
05:45:56 <goodger> but I will buy another detector tomorrow
05:46:11 <goodger> I'm surprised to find that the incidence of fatal CO poisoning is so high
05:46:45 <goodger> anyway, must sleep. night
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09:51:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14952 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: unify the "can vehicle go to station" tests
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10:41:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14953 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix (r14952): the "available aircraft" list caused a crash
10:42:13 <edeca> dihedral: Photoshop? :)
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10:46:25 <Roujin> rubidium: GetStationByTile(this->window_number); <-- the window number is a tile?
10:47:14 <Rubidium> depends on the window what the exact meaning is
10:47:40 <petern> cos using the stationid wouldn't make sense ;)
10:48:10 <Rubidium> mixing stationids and depotids == trouble
10:48:25 <Eddi|zuHause> not if you want a chance to unify these between transport type
10:48:27 <Rubidium> after all Roujin's talking about the depot window
10:48:46 * Alberth fall-through in switch() is confirmed to work
10:48:53 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, an airport may have multiple hangars
10:49:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that's one of the most useless quitmessages i have ever seen
10:50:35 <Rubidium> better than hydra's impossible to fulfill quit message
10:51:55 <Roujin> if an exit status of zero indicates success and a nonzero value indicates failure, an exit status of "an exit status of zero indicates success, and a nonzero value indicates failure" indicates failure, because "an exit status of zero indicates success, and a nonzero value indicates failure" is nonzero.
10:52:38 <Roujin> thus, worldemar failed.
10:53:17 <Alberth> Roujin: under the assumption that there are no other outcomes than success and failure
10:53:52 <petern> that is what was stated
10:54:00 <Roujin> well, his statement was not only that 0 means success, but also that everything else means failure
10:54:22 <Roujin> there may be other outcomes than success and failure, but they are NOT_REACHED() ;)
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10:54:30 <Rubidium> but what if it exited without an exit status?
10:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause> reminds me of "the 'finally' clause of a try statement is always exectuted"
11:01:54 <Alberth> or a non-numeric status
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11:18:17 <edeca> Heh, realistic acceleration rocks. Two trains in a straight line, one has +140 extra bags, the other overtakes it
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11:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: non-numeric is also non-zero
11:24:15 <petern> edeca, what does that have to do with 'realistic' acceleration?
11:27:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: because the language definition does not say "if checks for zero-ness"
11:28:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it says "check anything that could vaguely resemble a boolean"
11:28:57 <edeca> petern: I thought realistic acceleration was based on how loaded it was
11:30:04 <dihedral> acceleration does not influence max speed you know :-P
11:30:25 <dihedral> but how fast you can ......... accelerate to it :-P
11:30:39 <edeca> Yes, indeed, both reached full speed in the end
11:32:33 <Eddi|zuHause> what makes you think that "unrealistic" acceleration is not based on how loaded it was?
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11:33:10 <edeca> That's a good point, was unrealistic acceleration based on how loaded it was?
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11:36:52 <TrueBrain> grrr ..... my email client hangs AGAIN :(
11:36:58 <TrueBrain> always on one account ..
11:37:15 <petern> simply power/weight for original acceleration
11:37:28 <petern> therefore, a vehicle with less in it will accelerate faster
11:37:42 <petern> (or rather, have a higher acceleration ;))
11:38:53 <edeca> Ah, I didn't know that :)
11:40:09 <edeca> What does realistic acceleration get based on then? Friction between the pixels? ;)
11:41:03 <petern> velocity, friction, air drag
11:41:30 <edeca> Hm, that's pretty complicated!
11:42:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it's actually rather simple
11:42:49 <edeca> Cool, "special features: tilt"
11:43:24 <Eddi|zuHause> tilting gives higher speed in curves
11:43:34 <Eddi|zuHause> or at least it is supposed to
11:43:47 <Eddi|zuHause> some vehicle sets also make tilting visible
11:44:31 <edeca> I'm using pikkabirds set at the moment
11:44:51 <edeca> But the Eurostar train has 3 times the power and a higher top speed, so I probably wont bother with pendolinos
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11:50:57 <edeca> Is there any rason a "close airport" style patch hasn't been introduced?
11:53:05 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: Nobody has written a good one? It's not a feature for trunk?
12:33:48 <Tim> In the windows-console, cmd, how can i terminate a process?
12:34:30 <Tim> specifically an endless loop :D
12:35:58 <Tim> a process in the console itself ;)
12:39:17 <Rubidium> shutdown -s -t 1 doesn't terminate *a* process?
12:39:34 <Rubidium> and lots of people probably don't know what strg means
12:40:11 <Tim> And i can't enter shutdown... If it is counting towards infinity :D
12:41:11 <Tim> Hm, i am confused... In C++, if i have: int x = 5; for (; x ; x--) { cout << x << endl;}, i do understand that for each loop x decreases by one, but why does it stop if it is zero? The condition for terminating the loop is just "x", right?
12:41:55 <Rubidium> the last thing printed will be 1
12:42:18 <Tim> i would expect the conditio nto be x = 0
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12:44:30 <Rubidium> x is also an expression
12:45:55 <Rubidium> even x = 1 is an expression, which might give nice results in loops ;)
12:48:02 <Rubidium> for (int x = 5; "loop till you drop"; x--) .... is a nice infinite loop
12:48:15 <Rubidium> unless you use break/return in the loop body ofcourse
12:50:24 <Tim> Yes, i had an almost similar loop already :D
12:50:32 <Tim> That was the one i wanted to stop...
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13:00:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14954 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt order_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#1890]: sharing/cloning/inserting of orders that the/a vehicle (in the shared list) can't go to (wrong station type etc)
13:01:30 * frosch123 prefers commit messages like "fix property xx of feature yy" :/
13:01:49 <Rubidium> petern: can you now remember what you couldn't remember in FS#1832?
13:02:30 <frosch123> he already remembered, that there are only 256 parts per station
13:02:53 <frosch123> though as TTDP supports 16x bigger stations than OTTD does....
13:03:19 <Rubidium> TTDP supports 256x256?
13:03:27 <frosch123> yes :) as big as the map
13:03:34 <Rubidium> that's like... more than the map
13:04:52 <frosch123> though maybe when you can only build 14x14 parts at once, you cannot reach 256x256
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13:12:53 <TrueBrain> so ... anyone a nice story to tell?
13:14:56 <Rubidium> @tell >TrueBrain story
13:14:56 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Error: I haven't seen >TrueBrain, I'll let you do the telling.
13:15:05 <Rubidium> @tell TrueBrain story
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13:33:52 <George> frosch123: About yesterdays question of glx. Would it be possible to provide some flag for articulated vehicle, that would prevent their splitting on turnung?
13:34:05 *** Osai^zZz is now known as osai
13:34:42 <frosch123> and it is not possible
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13:41:34 <George> Sorry, it was Eddi|zuHause. [01:34:21] <Eddi|zuHause> what i said previously: i believe, what is needed, is a flag/callback/whatever for certain articulated vehicles to specify "no bend", and the drawing code handling them, as drawing them relative to the position of the of the previous vehicle, not on the position of the current vehicle
13:43:29 <George> frosch123: Would there be diagonal roads someday in OTTD?
13:45:08 <George> Good, Then I'l make curvature code based on 2 parts, not 3 parts
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13:59:04 <Wolf01> anybody who wants to help me on sloped stations?
13:59:50 <frosch123> he, did you modify GetFoundation_Station in the mean time?
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14:00:12 <Wolf01> I tried, but with no effects
14:00:48 <frosch123> no effects? I would expect the vehicles to follow the slope
14:01:09 <frosch123> ah, there is also GetSlopeZ_Station
14:01:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14955 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix: newgrf station specs didn't get deallocated when building a new station part over them.
14:02:13 <frosch123> well copy the needed stuff from GetSlopeZ_Track and GetFoundation_Track
14:02:30 * Wolf01 waits some ages until VS80 is ready
14:05:29 <Wolf01> ok, now it seem to be ready
14:08:06 <Wolf01> ok, compiling... let me see if it does work
14:13:18 <Wolf01> good it crashes on start
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14:30:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14956 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt newgrf_station.cpp station_cmd.cpp):
14:30:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#1832]: building new station parts didn't allocate a new station spec
14:30:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: effectively breaking variable 41. This was due to the limited number of station
14:30:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: specs that we can have per station. This fix makes newly build station parts
14:30:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: create a new spec until one cannot allocate new station specs anymore and it'll
14:30:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: revert to the old behaviour (sharing station specs).
14:39:10 <Tim> How about setting realistic acceleration and forbid 90 turns as standard options?
14:39:32 <Alberth> Tim: forbid 90 degrees turn breaks the ai
14:40:04 <FauxFaux> Clearly replace the AI!
14:40:45 <Alberth> FauxFaux: what do you think is the NoAI branch for?
14:41:06 <petern> Rubidium, i also had a patch that stored the build date for each part individually, but apparently it wasn't want
14:41:47 <SmatZ> petern: did you store the date in the map array?
14:43:13 <Alberth> SmatZ: we should use a VCS to save map changes :P
14:43:57 <SmatZ> Alberth: do you want a rollback? :-)
14:44:59 <Alberth> yeah, and branching for what-if tests :)
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14:48:11 <petern> why does it need changing?
14:48:34 <Tim> dunno, it's just a hell lot better with it enabled...
14:49:21 <Tim> And people new to the game might not change it and then wonder what kind of trains we have that can't climb a slope but go around 2*45 corners without losing speed :)
14:50:06 <Tim> They can still change it back, i just think it would make a better default setting...
14:50:18 <petern> i'm fairly sure that trains do lose speed around bends...
14:51:42 <SmatZ> ==> Tim isn't perfectly right in his statements (trains lose speed at each direction change - even in cases where new acc code doesn't cause slowdown), but I like the idea of setting it "true" by default
14:53:02 <Tim> True, i just had a look and they do loose speed, but still they go around very small bends quite fast... And what is really annoying is the slooooow climbing of slopes :)
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15:28:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r14957 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2516]: Do not abort train movement, when we are just about to reach the end of the platform.
15:54:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r14958 /trunk/src/ (7 files):
15:54:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange [FS#1923]: when checking for unique names, compare only with manually set names
15:54:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: There are situations that aren't solvable (because of different language files),
15:54:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: so if the user really wants to have duplicated name, allow him to do so. It
15:54:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: solves desyncs between server and clients using different languages. It behaves
15:54:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: the same in SP and MP, so users won't see the different behaviour as a bug (and
15:54:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: even checking in SP could be worked around by the user).
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16:04:01 <dihedral> SmatZ: that looks like a nice commit :-)
16:05:19 <SmatZ> dihedral: not very nice, but the only consistent solution :-/
16:05:34 <dihedral> a solution _is_ nice
16:05:55 <dihedral> phew - i was about to give you a hug too :-D
16:07:13 <Aali> frosch123: your fix for FS#2516 seems to have had an unwanted side-effect
16:08:21 <dihedral> because i thought of TrueBrain - he does not feel comfortable with "man hugs"
16:09:13 <Rubidium> dihedral should really read the manual entry for hugs
16:09:15 <frosch123> Aali: what did I broke?
16:09:17 <Aali> frosch123: trains now fit in the station just fine, but on the way out they "jump" forward and become lost (I get the warning message)
16:09:41 <Aali> smaller trains dont become lost but still do the jump
16:10:53 <frosch123> this "jump" is weird
16:12:51 <Aali> you can see it clearly by reversing a train while it is loading
16:13:05 <Aali> when you reverse it, it doesn't fit in the station anymore
16:13:44 <frosch123> yeah, the funny thing is, trains never drove to the end of the platform (since r1, so like since TTD), just that it did not matter, when the last wagon was long enough
16:14:40 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: is there already a 'ltstr' (for std::map) on a global level?
16:15:03 <SmatZ> FS#2516 should be invalid then, there should always be a space before the train
16:15:20 <SmatZ> but not when in front of a signal...
16:15:45 <SmatZ> people need to know how long the train will be when waiting for green
16:15:50 <SmatZ> and also how long the station should be
16:16:25 <Rubidium> not in OpenTTD itself AFAIK
16:16:27 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: mind if I add one in stdafx.h or so?
16:16:32 <SmatZ> when waiting for green signal, the train is usually few ticks before the tile end, right, frosch123?
16:16:32 <TrueBrain> I keep on defining it now in several files :)
16:16:39 <TrueBrain> struct ltstr { bool operator()(const char *s1, const char *s2) const { return strcmp(s1, s2) < 0; } };
16:16:45 <TrueBrain> I have 3 of those in different .hpp files now
16:16:53 <TrueBrain> multiple defines to avoid silly include-trees
16:17:11 <frosch123> SmatZ: it just suppressed the reversing
16:17:36 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: do you really need std::map, or is SmallMap enough too?
16:18:10 <TrueBrain> typedef std::map<const char *, int, ltstr> SettingValueList;
16:18:46 <Rubidium> looks like it, as long as you don't depend on a sorted key list
16:19:29 <TrueBrain> if (key == this->data[i].first) return this->data[i].second; <- doesn't really work for strings ;)
16:19:37 <TrueBrain> so no, SmallMap is not enough
16:21:05 <TrueBrain> you can introduce a SmallStringMap
16:21:12 <TrueBrain> but I don't see how that would be better than std::map
16:21:47 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: smaller code and compile time
16:22:14 <TrueBrain> so make me a SmallStringMap, and I will be more than happy to use it :)
16:22:21 <TrueBrain> just runtime would be slower
16:22:26 <TrueBrain> (lineair search instead of optimized search)
16:22:39 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: depends how big the set is :)
16:23:13 <TrueBrain> if n > 2, that already holds
16:23:32 <SmatZ> but if you used std::string (.....), (key == this->data[i].first) would work for strings ;)
16:23:44 <SmatZ> are you sure std::map has special versions for const char *?
16:23:56 <TrueBrain> I dislike using std::string :)
16:23:59 <TrueBrain> for many many reasons :)
16:24:02 * dihedral is gonna make lots 'n lots of food.......
16:24:17 <TrueBrain> it doesn't need special version, as you give the sorter function
16:24:50 <SmatZ> not function, but a class
16:25:04 <TrueBrain> the () operator of the class
16:25:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14959 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt settings.cpp): -Fix [FS#2508]: wrong defaults for service interval when switching between service interval in days and service interval in percentages.
16:25:12 <TrueBrain> which tells you how it is implemented :)
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16:26:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14960 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: add some this where appropriate (Alberth)
16:29:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14961 /trunk/src/ (42 files in 3 dirs): -Update: remove the string from r14960 from the other languages too.
16:30:37 <TrueBrain> but any alternative is welcome, else I would like to put the ltstr at some more global spot
16:31:04 <TrueBrain> core/stdstringmap.hpp :p
16:31:12 <Alberth> Rubidium: which string?
16:31:41 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: core/smallstring.hpp ;-)
16:31:52 <Rubidium> oh... /me is messing up ;)
16:32:06 <TrueBrain> that requires me implementing a SmallStringMap ;)
16:32:12 <Rubidium> ah well... the number's close enough
16:38:19 <Swallow> Out of curiosity: why is MAX_SPECLIST an enum instead of a static const? (newgrf_station.cpp)
16:39:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14962 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: add the concept of patch entries and patch (sub) pages
16:40:17 <TrueBrain> enums are so much better :)
16:40:26 <TrueBrain> that question can be generalized I guess :)
16:41:34 <Rubidium> maybe because there's no concept of static const in C?
16:42:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14963 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: remember what entry was clicked instead of the index (Alberth)
16:42:59 <frosch123> hmm, that "jump" is normal behaviour when reversing at line end, so not introduced by r14957
16:45:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14964 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: hide the length of a patch page behind a function (Alberth)
16:46:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14965 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: remember the patch entry instead of the page and index of the entry for handling the "input box" (Alberth)
16:47:49 <SmatZ> hmm isn't there a command switch for 'find' to stop after the first match? :-x
16:49:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14966 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: simplify and generalise finding patch entries (Alberth)
16:51:20 <SmatZ> Rubidium: yeah, but it still takes the time until it scans whole filesystem :-/
16:51:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14967 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: split the drawing of the window into several smaller functions (Alberth)
16:52:38 <SmatZ> Rubidium: that's it, thanks!
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17:12:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14968 /extra/ottd_grf/split/ (openttdgui.nfo openttdgui.pcx): [OTTD_GUI] -Add: + and - in circle sprites (Alberth)
17:13:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14969 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: make drawing trees possible (Alberth)
17:15:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14970 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Change: move all (patch) settings to a single "page" (Alberth)
17:23:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14971 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Change: the colour of the patch page text so it becomes more visible as it changed background (Alberth)
17:24:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14972 /trunk/src/lang/ (42 files in 2 dirs): -Update: do r14971 also for the non-English strings (Alberth)
17:26:23 <Wolf01> seem that Rubidium is busy on applying a great patch
17:27:04 <frosch123> revolutionising the gui :)
17:27:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14973 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: recursively fold subpages (Alberth)
17:28:20 <Wolf01> frosch123, I tried playing around with the GetFoundations_Station function, but also if I tell it to return FOUNDATION_NONE doesn't change anything o_O
17:29:00 <frosch123> then you should also take a look at DrawTile_Station
17:29:09 <frosch123> esp. where DrawFoundation is called
17:29:16 <frosch123> maybe also in newgrf_stations
17:29:48 <frosch123> and keep watching for the walls on the backside of south-neighboured tiles
17:30:09 <Wolf01> I don't think is only a drawing issue, but also the train still fall down from the step between the 2 station tiles
17:30:31 <frosch123> that should be GetSlopeZ_Station
17:30:53 <Rubidium> and prolly CanEnterTile or whatever it's called
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17:35:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14974 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt settings_gui.cpp): -Change: reorder/reorganise the entries of the settings window (Alberth)
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17:39:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r14975 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r14957): Do not immediatelly move the train when leaving the station and the destination is not yet known.
17:40:24 <frosch123> Aali: today is the day of experimental commits, so try to break it again :p
17:40:41 <Aali> never thought you'd ask :P
17:44:08 <Tim> Cool, a new order for all the settings *thumbsup*
17:53:37 <petern> think i preferred the tabs :p
17:54:20 <Tim> That is to be in Tabs, which are called according to the headlines (that was the suggestion)
17:55:00 <Tim> Under WinXP, do i need anything else than TortoiseSVN to get the source (and maybe apply patches) and MinGW to compile the game myself?
17:56:30 <energetic> maybe buildootd or any other ide supprting c++
17:56:58 <energetic> openttd-usefull can be usefull to.
17:57:01 <Alberth> Tim: not exactly, that file included difficulty & options too.
17:58:14 <Tim> So only the advanced-setting-tab-layout was changed to a single-page-layout?
17:58:49 <Tim> Ah right, BuildOTTD, forgot about that :)
17:58:58 <Tim> But can you do it with MinGW too?
17:59:05 <Tim> Since i have that installed anyway...
17:59:25 <Alberth> yep, with a tree-view for the settings
17:59:26 <Rubidium> mingw can compile ottd
18:00:41 <Rubidium> it needs some libaries though
18:03:44 <Wolf01> OH! Finally a difference! the train is below the station and the station is over the foundations
18:05:17 <Aali> this new settings gui will take a while to get used to..
18:05:40 <Aali> I think we'll be better off though, the old interface gets very messy with so many options on the same page
18:07:50 <Wolf01> AHA!!!! it works it works!!!!!
18:08:04 <Wolf01> now I need only a sloped station graphic
18:09:25 <Wolf01> thank you frosch123 for pointing me in the right direction :D
18:10:56 <Aali> frosch123: oops, even short trains get lost now
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18:11:36 <Aali> no improvement at all :/
18:12:00 <frosch123> what means "short train"
18:12:18 <Aali> doesn't cover the entire platform
18:13:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r14976 /branches/noai/src/ai/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
18:13:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: move more code from AIController to AIInstance
18:13:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: redirect 2 more functions to their right layer
18:14:13 <frosch123> drive-through- or terminal-station?
18:14:36 <Aali> ah, it works without PBS
18:14:54 <frosch123> without pbs it works, yes :/
18:15:26 <Aali> with PBS everyone gets lost
18:15:49 <frosch123> so, what is better? current behaviour, or before r14957 ?
18:17:52 <petern> behaviour that works :D
18:18:01 <Aali> without r14957 these trains will block the tile before the station, which is clearly wrong
18:18:31 <Aali> but they shouldn't get lost just because they're leaving a station either :)
18:18:55 <frosch123> well, the problem is the train starts driving before it has found a path or whatever
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18:20:06 <Aali> ideally, I would also like to see the reversing problem fixed, but that's not nearly as important
18:20:41 <Aali> if you can make the trains not lose themselves that would be fine :P
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18:40:06 <Zuu> Probably already mentioned, but i find it funny someone want to download MS Paint. (Graphics Forum)
18:40:46 <goodger> that app remained unchanged for...oh...
18:41:44 <Zuu> And many students insist on argumenting of how nice the program is, while I'm pretty alone using a vector program to draw my figures for my technical reports. :s
18:42:24 <goodger> yeah, it's pretty horrendous
18:43:21 <Zuu> Okay for cropping screenshots and copy-paste to word but not for making illustrations from scratch.
18:43:56 <goodger> well, people do use it to create illustrations from scratch
18:44:22 <goodger> but only in the same way that people race double-decker buses round racing circuits
18:44:23 <blathijs> goodger: I heard the office team has been working on Paint and it will get a "ribbon" in Windows 7
18:44:45 <goodger> blathijs: it doesn't need a ribbon, it has only three features
18:44:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r14977 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files): (log message trimmed)
18:44:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-01-10 18:44:17
18:44:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 4 fixed by khaloofah (4)
18:44:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 26 fixed by tucalipe (26)
18:44:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bulgarian - 3 fixed by Ar4i (3)
18:44:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 3 fixed by arnaullv (3)
18:44:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 35 fixed by tifached (35)
18:45:17 <blathijs> goodger: Perhaps it'll be a small ribbon then :-p
18:45:26 <Sacro> blathijs: it already has it
18:45:58 <blathijs> Isn't build 6780 of Windows 7?
18:46:15 <blathijs> Ah, yeah that's what I meant
18:47:04 <goodger> two tabs kind of ruins the idea of the ribbon IMO
18:48:03 <Zuu> Yea, maybe it has some hided tabs you can enable in settings like the Development tab for Word.
18:49:20 <goodger> the trouble with the ribbon is that it's a good idea with a horrific implementation
18:49:22 <Zuu> Would be interesting if they equipped Paint with VBA macros :p
18:51:01 <glx> easier to draw fractals ;)
18:51:16 <goodger> would be interesting if they equipped paint with image-editing tools
18:51:47 <glx> does it have real png support now?
18:54:05 <Zuu> Yesterday I had a look on batch/cmd scripting for renaming a bunch of files from a video camera so a directory prefix get added to the file names. Actually I was impressed by the documentation they had for the FOR command. Took me only 2 hours to write the script, with limited knowledge of batch/cmd scripting.
18:55:28 <glx> using powershell or standard cmd ?
18:55:50 <Steve-N> would have taken like 2 seconds with a proper sh
18:56:13 <Steve-N> (ok 2 minutes with the proper man pages with it)
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18:56:45 <Prof_Frink> Steve-N: ABS, not man pages.
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18:59:45 <Zuu> If you know perl good enough just rename is sufficent in Linux.
19:00:34 <Steve-N> right, anything but a dos script will do
19:04:32 <Zuu> Sure, but have you actually taken a look on it. I grew up with Mac OS (6-7-8 or so) and have mostly only heard people bashing the batch script format. But after spent some time on it it proved to be far better than I've heard about it. Sure different from sh/bash/zsh/etc. but not impossible to get things done either.
19:07:01 <Steve-N> sure, made quite some $@%%@$ batch scripts on machines on which nothing else was possible/allowed. it totally sucks. still is full of bugs and every new dos version introduces a new incompatibility with previous versions.
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19:22:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14978 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: simplify the control flow of the OnClick of the settings window
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19:23:14 <Wolf01> no nightly this evening?
19:24:05 <petern> probably still compiling
19:24:42 <Rubidium> it takes roughly half an hour to compile all targets
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19:30:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14979 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt newgrf.cpp): -Fix: Disable a NewGRF from loading if it contains multiple Action 8s
19:31:18 <petern> Wolf01: it's there now
19:48:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14980 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Change: shuffle around some more settings to make them more logically grouped/ordered
20:17:52 <Wolf01> argh! refitting a train cost more than its year income
20:24:54 <Wolf01> (and I think that topic should fit more in the development forum)
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20:29:40 <Zuu> Sloped stations that's something new :)
20:30:12 <petern> diagonal stations was cooler :p
20:33:16 <Zuu> That I must have missed, don't remember seeing a diagonal station patch.
20:34:10 <petern> it was a few years ago :)
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20:38:33 <petern> *** petern has joined the game
20:38:33 <petern> *** Game paused (connecting client)
20:38:33 <petern> *** Game unpaused (client connected)
20:38:33 <petern> *** Game unpaused (enough players)
20:38:35 <petern> dbg: [net] Closed client connection 7
20:38:38 <petern> *** petern has left the game (connection lost)
20:38:40 <petern> *** Game paused (not enough players)
20:38:43 <petern> Error: [net] Trying to execute a packet in the past!
20:38:45 <petern> openttd: /home/petern/ottd/nightly/src/openttd.cpp:144: void error(const char*, ...): Assertion `0' failed.
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20:39:56 <petern> that's on a dedicated server... how can it execute a packet if it's paused? heh
20:40:52 <Nite_Owl> Oops - sorry petern - I did not mean to interrupt your lack of game
20:46:57 <petern> and it messes with pause
20:48:46 <dihedral> [21:39] <petern> that's on a dedicated server... how can it execute a packet if it's paused? heh <- CMD_COMPANY_CTRL
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20:49:49 <dihedral> try joining as spectator instead of starting a new company :-P
20:50:39 <frosch123> haha, so it survived the first 5 minutes :p
20:50:48 <Aali> trains do get lost when you reverse them in-station with PBS
20:50:57 <Aali> but all the other issues seem to be gone
20:51:39 <petern> dihedral: how would that help?
20:52:26 <frosch123> Aali: at least that is no new issue \o/
20:53:14 <Aali> and its only an issue if you trigger it on purpose :P
20:53:14 <dihedral> that is like the only docommand i know of, that runs when the game is paused
20:53:30 <dihedral> well - and the unpause
20:53:58 <petern> that is blatantly untrue
20:54:06 <petern> loads of commands work when paused
20:54:28 <petern> and this is the server failing
20:54:35 <petern> it seems if you have a server running
20:54:39 <petern> with a client connected
20:55:13 <petern> and then load an existing game or start a new one, the client will try to reconnect (why does it do that?) and the server will from then on not work properly until it's restarted
20:55:36 <petern> it needs the client to reconnect to cause it to mess up, though
20:56:03 <petern> if you disconnect first, then newgame, then connect, it's fine
20:56:54 <dihedral> uh - that's new then
20:57:05 <dihedral> because with 0.5.3 i never used to see issues with that
20:57:48 <dihedral> again - it would be interesting to see if that happens, when you are spectator
20:58:09 <dihedral> because then your client rejoins to spectator and not some invalid company
21:00:32 <petern> and yes, of course it's new
21:00:40 <petern> why would i run a 0.5.3 server?
21:01:49 <dihedral> when you had clients connected and you ran newgame they would reconnect!
21:02:46 *** NukeBuster has left #openttd
21:04:27 <OwenS> Hmm - I wonder how difficult it would be for me to write a hardware accelerated blitter
21:05:34 <OwenS> It would firstly be able to offload palette lookups
21:07:06 <OwenS> All 8-bit textures would be uploaded as GL_LUMINANCE textures, then a shader would look up their values in a 256 entry 1D texture using GL_NEAREST mapping (to avoid minification & interpolation artefacts)
21:07:37 <glx> petern: this behaviour happened before but it has been fixed IIRC
21:07:50 <glx> maybe recent changes broke it again
21:08:48 <OwenS> Using the correct projection matrix, you could continue to consider the screen as a (0...width-1, 0...height-1) pixel screen then just use GL_QUADs to render sprites
21:10:29 <frosch123> aren't there already two opengl blitters?
21:12:09 <OwenS> Theres apparently an experimental OpenGL blitter
21:16:18 * OwenS can't help but wonder what their progress is like
21:16:47 <el_en> a coworker of mine made one back in 2004, and it hasn't been released in public.
21:17:07 <petern> they falter when zoomed out
21:18:42 <OwenS> (I'd test but it seems it's not in my (custom compiled) nightly)
21:21:04 <OwenS> I'd assume they may be hitting the graphics card's batch limitation :s
21:28:43 <dihedral> oh c'mon, you could run the entire app on todays graphics cards :-P
21:29:09 <TrueBrain> dihedral: make a patch for that :)
21:29:41 <TrueBrain> petern: I made one too :) Makes 4 ;)
21:31:15 <OwenS> dihedral: Graphics cards suck at if()s :p
21:35:00 *** NukeBuster has joined #openttd
21:58:40 <dihedral> TrueBrain: not quite my field of .... expertise :-P
21:59:34 <goodger> actually, a recent graphics card is probably more powerful than most PCs in use today
22:00:03 <OwenS> goodger: Not really. GPUs aren't turing complete
22:00:36 <OwenS> Well, they are, but theyre turing tarpits ;-)
22:00:58 <glx> they are dedicated to one task only
22:01:10 <dihedral> goodger: so you average computer's power of those in use to be < 800 MHz?
22:01:24 <OwenS> dihedral: My GPU is 500Mhz. But it has 96 cores ;-)
22:02:06 <OwenS> The reason why branches are a very bad idea on GPUs is because it can't parallelize the shader nearly as well
22:02:22 <goodger> dihedral: speaking in terms of TFLOPS
22:02:33 <goodger> does your desktop PC deliver 1.5 TFLOPS by itself?
22:02:43 <goodger> new graphics cards do
22:02:52 <dihedral> the one i have at work? :-P
22:03:15 <OwenS> goodger: Yes. But it's integer performance is probably abysmal
22:05:07 <goodger> OwenS: likely. the power remains
22:05:41 <Aali> goodger: do you brush your teeth with a chainsaw?
22:05:53 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
22:06:24 <goodger> Aali: no, but the chainsaw's motor still has more power than the toothbrush's
22:06:57 <Aali> yes, but that power is useless for the task at hand
22:07:01 <OwenS> New graphics cards have good integer performance, but still suffer more from branches than a 32-level pipeline Pentium 4 - and thats saying something!
22:07:14 *** energetic has joined #openttd
22:17:33 <goodger> WTF does "no,later" mean?
22:17:47 <Zuu> I've never seen the "don't" GRF :)
22:18:04 <Nite_Owl> The forums have hit a new level of funny lately
22:18:41 <frosch123> goodger: I thought you were the native-speaking one :p
22:18:50 <goodger> frosch123: precisely :P
22:18:51 <frosch123> but yes, the poll is hillarious :)
22:19:20 <goodger> "no, later" is usually considered to mean "do it later, rather than now" --- but this makes no sense as a poll response :S
22:19:54 <frosch123> perhaps you are too busy with playing with other newgrfs, so you cannot survice yet another newgrf to play with :p
22:21:53 <goodger> that makes even less sense :P
22:28:12 <George> frosch123: Would it be hard to implement FS2521?
22:29:15 <frosch123> no, I just wondered whether it is correct to add it to that variable. i.e. others would want to get an uphill/downhill bit
22:50:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14981 /branches/noai/ (15 files in 5 dirs):
22:50:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: reworked how AI settings were stored in Settings (partly based on patch by Yexo)
22:50:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: introduced an AIConfig layer, which keeps track of AI settings (partly based on patch by Yexo)
22:50:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: reworked most of the codeflow regarding above subjects (partly based on patch by Yexo)
22:53:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14982 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai.cpp: [NoAI] -Codechange: cut down on the includes
22:54:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14983 /branches/noai/src/ai/ (ai.h ai_config.hpp api/ai_controller.hpp): [NoAI] -Codechange: prepare for rename
22:59:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14984 /branches/noai/ (21 files in 5 dirs):
22:59:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: renamed ai.h to ai.hpp (we are C++ after all)
22:59:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: renamed ai.cpp to ../saveload/ai_sl.cpp, as that was what it was doing
22:59:48 <George> frosch123: of cause using other var is not bad too
23:00:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14985 /branches/noai/projects/ (openttd_vs80.vcproj openttd_vs90.vcproj): [NoAI] -Fix (r14984): paint me yellow and call me a banana, I forgot MSVC again (oh dear ...)
23:00:52 <TrueBrain> 1 commit every 2 minutes .. I wonder if I can keep that up :p
23:03:25 * TrueBrain starts to make oneline-commits :p
23:03:55 <TrueBrain> enough code-changing for one day ... VERY dull I can tell you ... most boring job ever ...
23:04:18 <frosch123> [00:03] <TrueBrain> 1 commit every 2 minutes .. I wonder if I can keep that up :p <- you won't keep up with finding names of fruits
23:04:41 <TrueBrain> frosch123: you would be suprised ;)
23:05:09 <TrueBrain> never underestimate the creativity of a madman :)
23:05:51 *** Dred_furst` has joined #openttd
23:06:04 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: start with mabolo ;)
23:06:55 <TrueBrain> weird piece of fruit
23:07:36 <frosch123> QUESTION to the channel: did anyone ever assigned serviceintervals to individual vehicles?
23:07:57 <glx> I even don't do it generally
23:08:08 <TrueBrain> VERY VERY long ago :)
23:08:20 <TrueBrain> but then the default was 120, and no way to change that ;)
23:08:40 <Rubidium> frosch123: technically yes, in the "mood" of the question I'd've to say no
23:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i once tried to set them all higher when breakdowns were off
23:09:45 <Rubidium> conditional age order + service order + autoreplace - breakdowns == autoreplace when the vehicle gets 'old'
23:09:53 <frosch123> I can only remember that I was several times quite annoyed that changing the default interval does not apply to all vehicles
23:10:13 <frosch123> then i got uses to setting it to 800 days and use force-depots or whatever they are called
23:14:05 <TrueBrain> I ahve to say, I am suprised you can still manage it per vehicle :)
23:14:12 <TrueBrain> 200 trains .. haha :)
23:15:34 <frosch123> would someone notice, if that would be removed :p
23:16:05 <TrueBrain> doubtful; but why would you want to do that?
23:16:09 <Rubidium> yes... your friend from tt-ms.de and then he'd have a 6th point
23:16:47 <frosch123> 6th point, sounds like my recent post :p
23:17:10 <Rubidium> but then, who cares about him
23:17:42 <Rubidium> it's always interesting how wrong people can sometimes be
23:19:05 <TrueBrain> makes me still wonder why someone would want to remove it :) Is it in your way? :p
23:19:28 <frosch123> however, TrueBrain: troublesome is changing percentage/time-interval when there are already vehicles built, as well as changing it from disabled to enabled
23:20:15 <frosch123> s/it/serviceintervals/
23:20:52 <Roujin> how about a button for resetting it to default again?
23:21:07 <Roujin> like you can now reset names of towns, stations etc. to default?
23:21:16 <Roujin> would that also solve your problem?
23:21:52 <frosch123> though percentage... how many in this channel know whether service-percentage means reliability dropping by or to the specified relative or absolute amount
23:21:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14986 /trunk/src/timetable_cmd.cpp: -Doc: small error in a comment (PhilSophus)
23:22:27 <TrueBrain> I always assumed it meant that if the reliability is below N%, it would service itself :p
23:22:56 <frosch123> so "to" and "absolute": both wrong :p
23:23:26 <TrueBrain> so a failure by design ;)
23:23:37 <Roujin> but speaking about removing stuff.. now after the restructuring of the advanced settings window (and I made a screenshot of it and added information to the wiki), I noticed some options that could in my opinion easily be removed
23:24:00 <Roujin> e.g. show vehicle speed in status bar
23:24:10 <Roujin> who would want to disable that? :/
23:24:16 * frosch123 is always surprised how many options are already now present in the gui :/
23:24:37 <Roujin> or Always show long date in the status bar
23:24:40 <TrueBrain> there can't be enough ;)
23:24:55 <TrueBrain> MORE MORE MORE MORE!
23:25:00 <TrueBrain> we want to outdo TTDp! :)
23:25:01 <frosch123> why are my typos always logical inverting?
23:25:25 <Roujin> why the heck would someone want to have only the month and year while unpaused, and the day only when paused?
23:25:48 <Rubidium> because (s)he wants to play TTD
23:26:01 <Roujin> okay, that was TTD behavior.. but hey, it's an improvement
23:26:04 <frosch123> 00:28] <Roujin> why the heck would someone want to have only the month and year while unpaused, and the day only when paused? <- is that a setting oO
23:26:21 <TrueBrain> welcome frosch123, in the world of endless settings :)
23:26:26 <Roujin> frosch123: IIRC that's the behavior when you deactivate "Always show long date in the status bar"
23:26:54 <frosch123> ah well, I read it as "do not show month and year, but only day" when paused :p
23:27:05 <TrueBrain> I believe I have almost all settings ACTIVE
23:27:37 <glx> even the mouse related ones?
23:28:20 <Roujin> Rubidium: Since when does OpenTTD have the same principle as TTDPatch - "If the player wants he can disable everything so that he plays vanilla TTD"
23:28:23 * glx should start openttd to see how is the "new" GUI
23:28:26 <frosch123> [00:29] <TrueBrain> I believe I have almost all settings ACTIVE <- but only because you play noai :p
23:28:34 <TrueBrain> Roujin: from origin?
23:29:03 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I never played NoAI :$
23:29:08 <TrueBrain> I wouldn't know how AdmiralAI behaves ...
23:29:19 <TrueBrain> I just noticed I have 50% of the settings OFF in fact ..
23:29:24 <TrueBrain> (well, of interface)
23:29:32 <glx> Roujin: at least you can do that at runtime
23:29:41 <TrueBrain> and Inflation is off :p
23:29:44 <Zuu> glx: I just started OpenTTD for the same reason, what a refreshing thing...
23:29:52 <TrueBrain> the rest is all on :)
23:30:31 * glx needs to redo some translations ;)
23:31:08 <frosch123> or increase the default width :p
23:31:23 <Roujin> There are more serious changes to vanilla TTD than displaying the full date when unpaused, or displaying the speed of a vehicle in its window, that are not disable-able.
23:31:30 <Eddi|zuHause> <Roujin> Rubidium: Since when does OpenTTD have the same principle as TTDPatch - "If the player wants he can disable everything so that he plays vanilla TTD" <- since elrails got introduced, and people revolted against the fact that disabling elrails was a cheat, not a setting
23:31:33 <Zuu> Will need some time to get used to, but interesting and refreshing change of the advanced settings window.
23:31:39 <glx> but I did them without knowing how it would look
23:31:52 <TrueBrain> Roujin: don't use them ;)
23:32:30 <Roujin> Will the old ai build new airports?
23:32:44 <TrueBrain> don't talk about the old AI please
23:32:59 <Roujin> but I want to play vanilla TTD, with a vanilla TTD AI...
23:33:28 <Zuu> I would like to suggest some visual spacing under a open group of settings.
23:33:36 <goodger> also *slaps TrueBrain's wrist*
23:33:48 <frosch123> "Automatically build semaphores before: 1600" <- my favorite setting :)
23:33:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Roujin: you can always reimplement the old ai as a new ai
23:34:12 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: no you can't
23:34:15 <frosch123> no, it would bankrupt
23:34:16 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: nope, impossible
23:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a different issue :p
23:34:35 <TrueBrain> no, you simply can't
23:34:39 <TrueBrain> cheating no longer is an option :)
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23:35:04 <Zuu> TrueBrain: Well, player can cheat, so why shouldn't AI be able to use the Cheat window? ;)
23:35:40 <glx> Zuu: cheat window doesn't prevent you to pay for terraforming
23:35:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: the ai used different cheats
23:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause> like terraforming for free
23:36:10 <Zuu> Yea I know, but getting lot of money would be almost the same.
23:36:13 <frosch123> though you could call it "seismology AI" in memory of one of the nicest bug reports :)
23:36:14 <Rubidium> free +60 station rating or so
23:36:50 <Zuu> Rubidium: That one would be harder with the player available cheats.
23:38:28 <Zuu> hmm, but a AI that uses coop-style money makers, to be able to play as the old AI :)
23:38:34 <Roujin_> anyway, my point is.. there are a bunch of settings that bring only a benefit when activated, and the only reason I can imagine for deactivating those is for having a "nostalgic TTD feel", and those could imo at least be removed from the gui
23:39:13 <Zuu> Or Roujin_ Or have a nostalgic category maybe?
23:39:23 <Roujin_> can still leave it in the .cfg for those hypothetical TTD nuts :)
23:40:14 <Roujin_> (thesis: those who care about such will always stay with TTDPatch anyways :P)
23:40:25 <TrueBrain> I think Zuu has a nice idea there yes
23:40:29 <TrueBrain> put it in their own category :)
23:40:36 <frosch123> "drawing of high bridgepillars" is not even a nostalgic patch option
23:40:59 <frosch123> it is more like a debug option
23:42:22 <TrueBrain> 8bpp-debug blitter is a nice debug option ;)
23:42:40 <frosch123> it should be the default on 1st april
23:42:46 <Roujin_> Another candidate is imo "Enable building of very long trains".
23:42:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14987 /branches/noai/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp saveload/oldloader.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix (r14984): compile failure
23:43:15 <frosch123> Roujin_: you can also change it into a configurable length
23:43:23 <Zuu> Roujin_: But disabling that one can have a point in MP.
23:43:24 <frosch123> though you would need to remove the old autoreplace hack
23:43:54 <Zuu> Though I would rather limit it by setting station spread to something small.
23:43:55 <Roujin_> Zuu: I see your point, but then it should be a configurable option like frosch123 just mentioned
23:44:14 <Zuu> yea frosch123 has a point there.
23:44:48 <Roujin_> frosch123: what's about that hack?
23:45:17 <frosch123> the setting limits the number of vehicles, not counting articulated parts, and not caring about vehicle length
23:45:51 <frosch123> i.e. I would expect the train length to be limited, instead of the number of wagons
23:45:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14988 /branches/noai/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix (r14984): makedepend failure
23:46:36 <Roujin_> and that would be significantly harder because of newgrfs and callbacks and all that I guess..
23:48:09 <TrueBrain> I feel a patch coming up :)
23:48:18 <Roujin_> oh? I'd have guessed that it is impossible to guess the length of a wagon before actually buying it and attaching it to the train
23:48:35 <frosch123> Roujin_: the same is done for wagon removal :)
23:48:50 * goodger has an idea for a global warming patch that increases the sea level every 10 years
23:49:34 <Zuu> I just got the idea to put a search box on the patch window, but I guess I soon become mr Search. :p
23:49:36 <OwenS> goodger: What do you do then when it's at level 16? :P
23:49:48 <Roujin_> OwenS: game over, everybody loses.
23:49:51 <Zuu> OwenS: Install the more height levels patch
23:50:14 <Roujin_> you should set it up so that it reaches level 16 exactly at 2050.
23:50:31 <Roujin_> that would then serve as explanation why the game "ends" in 2050 ;)
23:50:45 <OwenS> The city i'm working on in #ottdc would just have a couple of skyscrapers above the water level (IRL) :P
23:51:15 <goodger> OwenS: you've got a value for the height of a TTD heightlevel then?
23:51:23 <TrueBrain> bah ... then you download a random movie thinking: this should proof interesting ... and after 2 minutes you notice: I have already seen this one!!
23:51:48 <OwenS> goodger: Judging by the heighto the skyscrapers vs hills :p
23:52:18 <Roujin_> frosch123: then why is it impossible to guess the cost prior to actually buying it? key word NOTEST and such..
23:52:22 <frosch123> [00:49] <Roujin_> and that would be significantly harder because of newgrfs and callbacks and all that I guess.. <- though vehicles changing their length on refit could cause headache
23:52:40 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: serves you right for downloading a movie :p
23:52:49 <frosch123> Roujin_: it is? only in 0.6, or?
23:52:52 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I guess ..
23:53:29 <frosch123> Roujin_: or do you mean when the train is outside of a depot?
23:53:40 * goodger is amused by latest copyright infringement advertisements
23:53:45 <frosch123> i.e. the fs#"weird autoreplace behaviour"
23:54:36 <OwenS> My 1TB HD is rapidly filling up with ripped DVDs =S (Raw rips that is - left in their original MPEG-2)
23:54:57 <goodger> OwenS: time to whip out the old ffmpeg then...
23:55:10 <goodger> I suggest h264 but I have no idea what bitrate
23:55:11 <OwenS> goodger: That would reduce the quality ;-)
23:55:41 <Roujin_> frosch123: I'm talking about certain comments in code (command.cpp)...
23:55:46 * frosch123 gave up to collect movies, they become boring
23:55:50 <Roujin_> CMD_CLONE_VEHICLE: Both building new vehicles and refitting them can be
23:55:52 <Roujin_> * influenced by newgrf callbacks, which makes it impossible to accurately
23:55:54 <Roujin_> * estimate the cost of cloning a vehicle. */
23:55:57 <glx> OwenS: with correct settings it reduce size only
23:56:02 <frosch123> clone != autoreplace
23:56:12 <goodger> OwenS: actually you can reduce h264's bitrate to ludicrous degrees without reducing the quality
23:56:18 <goodger> glx: that's not a good thing
23:56:28 <frosch123> and yes, cloneing could also be done, but it would mean more work
23:56:47 <OwenS> goodger: Unless I have x264 hogging my PC for days, I can see the quality difference
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23:57:05 <Roujin_> ah. okay. sorry for mixing up things..
23:57:13 <OwenS> My eyes are too good at detecting blocking artefacts =S
23:57:21 <TrueBrain> OwenS: so it is time to start using bluray :)
23:57:32 <OwenS> TrueBrain: Then my HD would fill up faster!
23:57:40 <goodger> OwenS: it is perfectly possible to reduce bitrate without introducing such artefacts
23:58:01 <OwenS> TrueBrain: I have these DVDs in my collection
23:58:04 <goodger> notably, divx doesn't even seem to introduce blocking artefacts
23:58:15 <glx> the only cheap bluray player is the PS3
23:58:16 <OwenS> goodger: You haven't been paying enough attention!
23:58:34 <TrueBrain> glx: yup :) But raw downloads are for free ;)
23:58:37 <goodger> I've been paying plenty of attention
23:58:43 <TrueBrain> goodger: clearly you are looking with your 11th finger ..
23:59:03 <OwenS> TrueBrain, But it's far easier to play them over the network on the PS3 than shuffle through my shelves. And never mind that I have Region 1 DVDs that my PS3 and DVD players refuse to play ;-)
23:59:23 *** WhiteRhino has joined #openttd
23:59:38 <TrueBrain> crack your DVD player :) But yeah ... I do the same with my xbox :)
23:59:45 <TrueBrain> streamng is always easier :)
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