IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-01-09
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00:17:43 <TrueBrain> pompiedom :)
00:17:47 <TrueBrain> it was btw a serious question joachim :p
00:20:55 <joachim> i hoped i could get away by smiling
00:21:39 <TrueBrain> ;) Bad boy :p
00:22:04 <joachim> i will look into learning c++ and see if i can contribute with anything
00:22:11 * TrueBrain waits for java to be compiled in his firefox ...
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00:22:33 <TrueBrain> hehe
00:22:35 <goodger> TrueBrain: firefox is coded in java now?
00:22:39 <TrueBrain> coding rarely is a real problem :)
00:23:05 <joachim> yeah, the coding standard is usually as much of a problem as the language
00:23:13 <TrueBrain> did I ever said that?
00:23:24 <joachim> or do you mean actually doing anything
00:23:26 <TrueBrain> I always wonder where that 11th finger keeps on popping up from
00:23:30 <joachim> oops. :)
00:23:35 <TrueBrain> joachim: hehe ;)
00:23:37 <TrueBrain> coding just takes time
00:23:44 <TrueBrain> but the ideas and how to code it, is mostly a problem for me :)
00:24:04 <TrueBrain> grr, mplayer at nice -19, still stalling because of some compiling running at the background
00:24:11 <joachim> everything comes with time and effort...
00:24:26 <joachim> which most people aren't willing to spend
00:25:06 <TrueBrain> very true :)
00:25:57 <goodger> how are you managing to compile java in a firefox-related context, then?
00:26:24 <Rubidium> try ionice -c 3 too
00:26:47 <TrueBrain> ionice -c 3 22812
00:26:47 <TrueBrain> execvp: No such file or directory
00:27:06 <TrueBrain> ah, -p
00:27:57 <TrueBrain> tnx Rubidium, a bit better (still poor)
00:29:38 <Rubidium> isn't -19 max priority?
00:29:55 <Rubidium> oh doh... it's mplayer's prio
00:30:21 <Rubidium> what did you ionice btw?
00:30:32 <Rubidium> and have you tried giving the compile nice 20?
00:30:59 <TrueBrain> mplayer :)
00:31:13 <TrueBrain> yeah ... compile is done now :p
00:31:38 <Rubidium> ionice -c 3 gives only io when idle, so odd it improved mplayer
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00:33:33 <TrueBrain> I didn't really use the value '3' :p
00:33:37 <thingwath> oh
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00:34:09 <[com]buster> Do the pros here know of any pending issues with toyland?
00:34:17 <thingwath> setting idle class with ionice usually really helps a lot
00:34:30 <TrueBrain> besides it looks ugly like hell?
00:34:49 <[com]buster> TB: I planned on using toyland-to-mars
00:35:10 <[com]buster> but whenever I start a server with a toyland map, any client desyncs
00:35:18 <[com]buster> whenever I start a temperate game, it doesnt
00:35:41 <[com]buster> independent of whether I have toyland2mars enabled
00:36:15 <TrueBrain> work for Rubidium, I guess ;) :p :p
00:36:33 <thingwath> for anyone, if used properly :-)
00:36:34 <[com]buster> the rest won't survive toyland? :p
00:36:51 <Rubidium> trunk or 0.6.3?
00:36:56 <[com]buster> trunk
00:37:04 <[com]buster> I have 14922
00:37:22 <Rubidium> then I've got no idea
00:37:53 <[com]buster> should I create a tracker ticket?
00:37:57 <Rubidium> yup
00:38:02 <[com]buster> will do
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00:43:43 <[com]buster> report:
00:44:00 <[com]buster> enjoy, I'd say
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00:45:51 <TrueBrain> I hate 64bit/32bit problems with firefox :(
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00:53:33 <Aali> 4>openttd - 1270 error(s), 25 warning(s)
00:53:35 <Aali> yay
00:53:39 <Aali> gotta love MSVC
00:53:52 <TrueBrain> concratz
00:54:28 <glx> Aali: usually you can ignore the latest errors are they are most likely caused by MSVC
00:54:53 <Aali> seems like it just corrupted its own datafiles and borked on every single file after that
00:55:19 <glx> yes he failed to update openttd.pdb after the first major error
00:55:30 <glx> or after too many errors
00:55:41 <Aali> that's... stupid
00:56:05 <glx> make just stops after the first error so it's not really different
00:56:38 <Aali> it's very different, MSVC doesn't stop
00:56:42 <Aali> it just keeps trying
00:56:47 <glx> the result is the same, compile failed
00:57:09 <Aali> and the real error ends up on top of 1269 useless errors
00:57:40 <glx> the list is well organised so it's not a problem
01:00:57 <TrueBrain> yeah, java support :)
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02:31:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r14929 /branches/noai/ (132 files in 15 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14890:14928
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03:16:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r14930 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_order.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: INVALID_ORDER was a valid order for AIOrder::IsValidVehicleOrder()
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07:20:49 <dihedral> good morning
07:23:24 <WhiteRhino> Morning.
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07:39:23 <petern> but is it?
07:42:36 <Eddi|zuHause> it is cold, somehow
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07:58:18 <dihedral> petern, depends
08:13:10 <dihedral> have you guys ever thought of setting up some continuous integration system for openttd?
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08:13:48 <Tim> Morning
08:13:56 <WhiteRhino> Morning.
08:14:08 <petern> dihedral, a what?
08:14:14 <Tim> Christmas is really late this year... So much new features these days :)
08:14:46 <dihedral> continuous integration
08:15:38 <dihedral> you either poll every x minutes for update in svn, or you install a hook script - either way
08:15:57 <dihedral> changes trigger a build, and the involved authors are notified if the build fails
08:16:37 <dihedral> but i guess the nightly setup is just that... polling every day at 2000 CET ;-)
08:18:34 <Tim> Does distant joining of stations work the same as in ttdpatch?
08:18:44 <Tim> I want to update the wiki...
08:18:49 <DaleStan> Not quite, I believe.
08:19:10 * dihedral waves hello to DaleStan
08:19:15 <Tim> Big diffference?
08:19:30 <Tim> It either has to go under: Features that are significantly different in OpenTTD
08:19:45 <Tim> or under TTDPatch features in OpenTTD
08:21:28 <DaleStan> Non majorly different. The difference is that TTDPatch always requires CTRL to open the Join dialog, while it's optional in Open in one somewhat rare case.
08:21:35 <DaleStan> *Not
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08:22:06 <Tim> Okay
08:22:27 <Tim> I guess that can then still go under ttdpatch features in openttd
08:23:10 <DaleStan> (That case being building a station/loading area that is adjacent to two or more stations.)
08:23:50 <Tim> What happens in TTDPatch if you do so without pressing CTRL? Does it just choose one?
08:24:23 <DaleStan> It errors out.
08:25:37 <DaleStan> Can't build station here ... \n Adjoins more than one existing station/loading area
08:26:53 <Tim> Okay, thanks :)
08:27:28 <Tim> Are vehicle introduction dates later than 2050 possible in TTDPatch?
08:27:57 <Tim> Just added the "Features only available in OpenTTD" and need some content, doesn't look too good empty ;)
08:29:13 <Tim> And the higher maximum speed for road vehicles?
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08:30:01 <DaleStan> After 2050, no. Higher speed limit!? Are you really asking that one? That's been in Patch for years. Possibly even a decade.
08:30:10 <Tim> ;)
08:30:45 <DaleStan> ... OK. So not a decade. But definitely years.
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08:36:05 <Tim> Well, i never really played TTDPatch...
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08:37:24 <WhiteRhino> Bedtime. Night, folks.
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08:46:47 <Tim> Hm, i'm just wondering... Shouldn't the wiki pages "New Features since version 0.x." not be renamed to "New Features in version 0.x+1"? So "new features since 0.5.0" would be called "New features in 0.6.0"
08:48:19 <Tim> I think that makes a bit more sense, since you could think that "New features since 0.5.0" would cover all the new features since that version, but it only covers the new features introduced until 0.6.0 came out...
08:49:05 <Tim> Of course, New features since 0.6.0 makes sense, since it is still current...
08:50:33 <Tim> And, additionally, it might be an idea to merge the (old) roadmaps to these pages, since both kind of list the same stuff.
08:53:27 <Tim> AND, an overview page might also be very useful...
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08:54:48 <Tim> I know this is a lot now... But i would volunteer to think of a good system on how to make all these pages and make an example of it on my userpage - That is, if it is not completely undesired and only if it has a slight chance of being added to the wiki
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09:18:42 <petern> The roadmap pages are generally junk anyway.
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09:20:05 <Tim> Yeah, since most of the points are added the exact time the feature hits trunk :D
09:20:12 <Tim> Like with YAPP ;)
09:20:58 <Tim> And the points listed are mostly identical with "Major new Features" from the "New features since..." page
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09:26:32 <Rubidium> roadmaps are especially junk because we have absolutely no obligations to follow them
09:26:53 <edeca> "what people want but might never get"
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09:27:06 <Rubidium> and previously they became kinda wish lists because everybody added whatever (s)he wanted to the list
09:27:06 <Tim> That's why they are protected from editing :D
09:27:13 <Tim> yeah
09:27:45 <Rubidium> and thus there were lots of things in the roadmaps that never got made and people started to complain a lot
09:28:00 <Rubidium> so we locked them
09:28:24 <Rubidium> and started adding stuff we were fairly certain of they would or could make it before the next release
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09:37:43 <petern> hehe, 0.1 to 0.3 in a month
09:37:53 <petern> and then 4 years for 0.3 to 0.6...
09:38:42 <Rubidium> and roughly 1 year between each major release
09:39:50 <Tim> Hm, thinking about my proposal from above again... How about merging all those new features pages also with the stable release pages? My idea would be to keep the pages like "OpenTTD 0.6.0/1/2/3", "OpenTTD 0.5.0/1/2/3" etc, and make a new page "OpenTTD 0.6.x Releases", "OpenTTD 0.5.x Releases" etc (more coming)
09:40:37 <petern> why do we even have a ttdpatch comparison page?
09:41:21 <Tim> On the "OpenTTD 0.6.x Releases" page there would be some general, interesting information for the normal user: The first beta published on that date, the first stable version at that date, a list of the stable versions. Then a list with new features, and maybe some other comments
09:41:23 <edeca> petern: For people coming from ttdpatch?
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09:41:47 <petern> people don't come from ttdpatch
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09:42:50 <Forked> I used the patch at first.. but when I took up TTD again some years later I went with open. I can't recall why, but I wub you guys now so I'll never go back
09:43:27 * Rubidium started with openttd because he couldn't get his head around the assembly
09:43:50 <petern> i started with simutrans
09:43:52 <Rubidium> and because I'm always having fights wit wine
09:43:53 <edeca> petern: Me too
09:43:54 <petern> god that was ugly :)
09:44:12 <edeca> Actually some of the graphics in simutrans now are really nice, but I prefer signalling and stuff in openttd
09:44:16 <petern> when i first played ottd it was like... "wow, the screen scrolls smoothly"
09:44:29 <petern> oh god, simutrans junctions :/
09:44:38 <edeca> Does it even *do* junctions? Heh
09:44:48 <edeca> Trains pick platforms randomly, things like that
09:45:19 <petern> lol
09:45:45 <petern> if i search for 'simutrans junctions' on google images, nearly every image is of ottd via tt-forums
09:45:53 <edeca> Was openttd a complete rewrite? Or did it borrow from the assembly in earlier versions?
09:46:04 <FauxFaux> Deep.
09:46:42 <FauxFaux> The older code in the current release is written in C, I'd rather compile it and read the asm.
09:46:52 <edeca> FauxFaux: You like ASM?
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09:50:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14931 /trunk/src/effectvehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#2512]: the "animation state" of the bubbles was stored in a variable that was not stored in the savegame. Using a variable that gets saved in the savegame solves the desync and makes it a bit clearer.
09:53:04 <petern> nice work
09:53:51 <edeca> "bubbles"?
09:54:00 <dihedral> MY bubbles
09:54:15 <petern> edeca, toyland
09:54:34 <edeca> Ah, toyland! :)
09:54:45 <edeca> Does anybody play that, really?
09:54:56 <Rubidium> yes
09:55:04 <edeca> Hehe, crazy people.
09:55:10 <edeca> I really like the graphics, I just find it harder to play
09:58:35 <petern> weirdo
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10:06:57 <petern> hmm, 22" 1680x1050 for £75 :o
10:07:36 <dihedral> not bad
10:07:50 <petern> ah, unfortunately i only have £105 to last the month :/
10:07:54 <dihedral> now that the pound is _that_ low, it's worth buying it stuff there :-P
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10:44:56 <edeca> It's OK, soon the Government will listen to all the people on BBC "have your say" and pay off all personal debt
10:48:31 <petern> oic
10:49:51 <edeca> I mean, that's the "obvious" solution, right? :)
10:55:38 <petern> is it?
10:55:52 <Rubidium> until you get a glimpse on how the monetary system works it is
10:56:20 <petern> hmm
10:56:24 <petern> this code is nasty :)
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11:09:53 <Eddi|zuHause> my head is exploding...
11:09:56 <petern> why?
11:10:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i concentrate too much
11:10:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so i get even less done...
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11:12:42 <petern> heh, we never did do a 0.6.4
11:13:44 <edeca> petern: </sarcasm> earlier, just the BBC have your say makes me laugh
11:13:49 <Belugas> [04:56] <edeca> I really like the graphics, I just find it harder to play <-- industry and animation wise, it is the best landscape of TTD
11:14:03 <edeca> "if the govt payed off all our debts it wud all b gd again"
11:14:16 <edeca> Belugas: Definitely, the animation is excellent! But why do you say about the industry?
11:18:03 <Belugas> industry chain. very good
11:18:05 <Belugas> mmh..
11:18:09 <Belugas> good -> food
11:18:12 <Belugas> breakfast!
11:19:11 <Tim> Belugas: That's why i suggested changing the default industries for temperate a little :) Yes, i know, it breaks NewIndustries and such ;)
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11:20:19 <Belugas> and thus, NO CAN DO ;)
11:20:24 * Belugas is really gone for food
11:21:12 <Tim> Too bad :(
11:21:32 <petern> why would we change the default industries when newgrf is around to make those changes?
11:21:49 <Tim> But we could do a NewGRF and have it always activated :)
11:21:58 <petern> nope
11:22:34 <Tim> Yes, i know... :(
11:22:50 <petern> why is it a problem?
11:23:03 <Tim> I just can't get over that factory that produces Goods out of Steel, Grain and Livestock :D
11:23:10 <petern> the facility is there to change something, and you can use that facility. forcing the changes you want on everyone is silly.
11:23:52 <petern> tinned food
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11:32:01 <TrueBrain> morning all
11:32:59 <dihedral> hello sir
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11:36:26 <Tim> Morning
11:37:07 <Tim> So, here we go, tell me what you think... The idea would be to replace the old roadmaps and new features since.. pages with that
11:37:26 <Tim> Still WIP, of course
11:37:34 <Tim>
11:39:09 <TrueBrain> You don't even know who did 32bpp :'(
11:39:43 <Tim> ^^ I will complete the list soon :)
11:39:58 <Tim> By searching in the trunk.hg
11:41:42 <Tim> did not find one way roads and timetables though
11:42:11 <TrueBrain> Look better :)
11:42:29 <petern> Obfuscated commit messages \o/
11:42:44 <frosch123> @openttd commit 9999
11:42:44 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Commit by rubidium :: r9999 /trunk (12 files in 5 dirs) (2007-05-31 15:15:00 UTC)
11:42:45 <DorpsGek> frosch123: -Feature: make it possible to disallow busses and lorries to go a specific way on straight pieces of road.
11:42:50 <frosch123> no revision is easier to remember :)
11:42:53 <TrueBrain> now they finally understand it sucks to use such commit messages :(
11:43:17 <petern> do they?
11:43:47 <Tim> Omg... How am i supposed to find that? :)
11:43:49 <Tim> But thanks
11:43:59 <TrueBrain> petern: it was more an expression of hope I guess :)
11:44:04 <petern> ah :)
11:44:32 <FauxFaux> You should do what we do at work, and use the commit message as the thing that gets shown to the customer for their bug being closed. OR NOT
11:45:36 <petern> -Fix: Customer is a cock and ... blah
11:45:57 <Tim> Timetables, anyone?
11:46:04 <TrueBrain> lets hope MSVC is not a customer :p
11:46:25 <petern> hehe
11:46:38 <frosch123> Tim: maedhros IIRC
11:46:59 <TrueBrain> Tim: svn log timetable.cpp?
11:47:35 <TrueBrain> @openttd commit 10236
11:47:35 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by maedhros :: r10236 /trunk (21 files in 4 dirs) (2007-06-20 19:17:22 UTC)
11:47:36 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Feature: Introduce a form of timetabling for vehicles.
11:48:05 <Tim> ehm, when searching at, could it be that it always only shows me the 10 first results and not all?
11:48:07 <Tim> Thanks!
11:49:13 <Tim> Any comments on that page? :)
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12:01:30 <Rubidium> Tim: you could've first taken a look at changelog.txt
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12:02:56 <Rubidium> Tim: your page shows classical signs of someone with German as first language
12:03:17 <dihedral> lol
12:03:42 <Rubidium> and how is e.g. PigLatin a feature?
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12:05:19 <Rubidium> Afrikaans as language would at least be a bigger thing
12:06:34 <Rubidium> piglatin's autogenerated anyways
12:06:38 <Tim> I meant rather the idea and general layout of the page rather than the specific content, since this is heavily WIP ;) The list there is from the "New Features since 0.5" and the 0.6 roadmap page...
12:08:02 <petern> pig latin is fucking pointless and should be removed
12:08:02 <Rubidium> the main question is: what's important and what's not?
12:08:15 <Tim> Yes, true
12:09:01 <Tim> I now just thought that maybe the Major features should be in that table on the page, with revision, date, developer, and beneath should be a list with all features, with just revision number and commit log / name
12:09:34 <petern> revision, date and developer are all pretty ireelevant
12:09:38 <petern> but spelled correctly
12:11:02 <Tim> I think it is not that uninteresting for the major features
12:11:32 <petern> most of the stuff ends up with input from everyone
12:11:40 <Tim> But probably really not needed for every small feature
12:12:19 <TrueBrain> "who" did it is indeed very irrelevant in most cases
12:12:40 <TrueBrain> as also: "which revision" or "date" .. nobody really cares about that when downloading a stable version ;)
12:14:47 <Tim> Of course, someone who just wants to play does not care, but he wouldn't look at that wiki page anyway ;)
12:15:12 <TrueBrain> fair enough :)
12:15:18 <TrueBrain> just with the "who" I generally have a problem
12:15:34 <Tim> Just thought it might be nice to have a place where you can look up the new features and, for the major features, get some additional information without having to search for it
12:15:55 <TrueBrain> if not that you can rarely point to one (or several person), then because it is silly that if you make one big thing your name gets there, and if you make 1000 small things, you name never gets there :p
12:16:55 <TrueBrain> well, what is useful, is links to wiki pages with more info on the new feature :)
12:17:01 <TrueBrain> (how to use it ...)
12:21:35 <petern> yeah
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12:54:22 <Tim> So, going home, goodbye
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13:56:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r14932 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_order.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix (r14930): check more strictly the validity of order position
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14:02:45 <TrueBrain> lalala
14:03:06 <dihedral> ninininini
14:04:17 <Rubidium> night dihedral ;)
14:04:47 <dihedral> :-)
14:04:48 <dihedral> hehe
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14:06:02 <Eddi|zuHause> night... that's what i need right now...
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14:15:13 <TrueBrain> you guys are BORING!
14:15:19 <TrueBrain> that it might be said
14:16:15 <dihedral> you are mean - hurting our feelings like that! think we cannot read between those lines, eh?
14:16:26 <dihedral> we for sure see what you are trying to tell us!
14:16:26 <Forked> TrueBrain: you suck :\
14:16:49 <TrueBrain> yeah
14:16:52 <TrueBrain> that you guys are boring!
14:16:55 <dihedral> now Forked that is not quite true! and he's just trying to hurt his closes friends because someone hurt him before :-P
14:17:15 <Forked> Pretty sure I'm not a close friend, so I guess that makes me not boring :-) I withdraw my statement
14:17:39 <TrueBrain> Forked: you are boring!
14:17:44 <Forked> TrueBrain: you suck!
14:17:55 <TrueBrain> you want some too?
14:18:00 <TrueBrain> (ieuw)
14:18:32 <Forked> (I only have sexual relations with one person, and thats my fiancè .. or however the hell you spell it :p)
14:18:48 <Forked> and my definition of "sexual relations" is broader than bill clintons
14:18:59 <TrueBrain> :)
14:19:05 <TrueBrain> good to know there are decent people out here :)
14:20:06 <edeca> Forked: What's his name? :P
14:20:11 <mikegrb> lies
14:20:23 <TrueBrain> bad edeca ... bad bad edeca
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14:32:19 <Forked> edeca: it's not a guy :)
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14:32:36 <Forked> but I'm all for gay guys, not as much as I was though
14:32:41 <Forked> "more gay guys, less competition"
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14:51:02 <Aali> hmm
14:51:23 <dihedral> mmh
14:51:25 <Aali> someone messed up the NoAI merge with distant join
14:51:37 <dihedral> :-D
14:51:56 <glx> Aali: really?
14:52:03 <glx> more details please
14:52:10 <Aali> as far as I can see, AIRail::BuildNewGRFRailStation is still using the old parameter format
14:52:30 <glx> oops it's not in regression so I missed it
14:52:33 <Aali> and AdmiralAI complains about not being able to build railway stations
14:52:53 <TrueBrain> bad glx :p
14:52:57 * TrueBrain hugs glx :)
14:53:06 <Aali> I also noticed some default-AI-style terraforming with NoAI
14:53:24 <Aali> that one could be my fault
14:54:26 <Aali> let me try it with a clean NoAI
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14:55:01 <Yexo_> Aali: that terraforming is the result of AdmiralAi trying to terraform land to build a station, but as long as the station building fails, it'll try a different spot
14:55:12 <Aali> oh, right
14:55:40 <Belugas> helo
14:55:57 <dihedral> hello Belugas
14:56:24 <dihedral> Yexo - can that not be checked better?
14:58:22 <Aali> to be fair, the error wouldn
14:58:30 <Aali> 't make any sense in this case
14:58:40 <Aali> damn swedish keyboard layout
14:59:12 <mrfrenzy> Aali: that problem only exists with some improperly designed swedish keyboards
14:59:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14933 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: check the whether a pool item can be constructed instead of trying to make it and check for NULL.
14:59:29 <mrfrenzy> the proper ones don't have such a wide enter key and the ' key is where it's supposed to be
15:00:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14934 /trunk/src/oldpool_func.h: -Fix: in (extreme) cases CanAllocateItem could return true when there's not enough space.
15:00:39 <TrueBrain> hi Belugas :)
15:00:40 <Aali> switching keyboard is out of the question though
15:01:16 <Yexo_> dihedral: any ideas? the error returned in this case doesn't make any sense. In other cases, the most likely case is that someone else build a station between the time of fiinding a good place and trying to build there. Local authority disallowing is already checked for
15:01:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14935 /trunk/src/ (oldpool.h oldpool_func.h): -Fix [FS#2498]: the new operator may not return NULL, so don't.
15:01:36 <Aali> I have an old DEC keyboard from the early 90's, not giving it up :P
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15:06:01 <TrueBrain> airspeed set to 1/1 is a good money maker :)
15:06:02 <TrueBrain> haha
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15:11:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r14936 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix: INDUSTRYBEH_ONLY_NEARTOWN bypassed the clear-test and could e.g. result in incomplete clearing of protected houses.
15:13:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r14937 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_rail.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix (r14929): of course I failed to sync correctly
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15:26:43 <petern> TrueBrain, and it was fixed that way for a long time ;)
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15:29:19 <TrueBrain> cargodest sure makes the challenge to get all cargo transported away :)
15:30:09 <petern> sync it!
15:30:14 <petern> i gave up ;)
15:30:21 <Aali> i synced it yesterday
15:30:23 <TrueBrain> not knowledgeable enough :)
15:30:34 <petern> Aali, oh... how? :p
15:30:42 <Aali> and today I fixed a bug in that sync :P
15:30:44 <TrueBrain> with his syncing machine!
15:30:45 <petern> hehe
15:30:54 <petern> some of it is not obvious
15:31:17 <Aali> I have PhilSophus's ITiM hg queue
15:31:24 <Aali> he did the order class patch
15:31:34 <Aali> said hg queue includes the cargodest version ;)
15:31:45 <petern> well
15:31:46 <petern> that's cheating
15:32:10 <Aali> heh
15:32:27 <glx> the only way to sync correctly is to use hg merge
15:32:59 <Aali> good thing I used hg merge, then
15:35:01 <Aali> if you want to try it out, here's the bundle;
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15:50:55 <Tim> ...and i am back again ;)
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15:54:13 <Aali> hmm
15:54:40 <Aali> which part of ottd is responsible for the length of trains NoAI's build?
15:55:23 <TrueBrain> huh?
15:55:27 <TrueBrain> the AI? :s
15:55:59 <Aali> AdmiralAI managed to build a train that's like, 1/100th of a tile too long, so it's blocking the station
15:56:13 <Aali> using tropic refurbishment set
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15:58:18 <glx> I'd sau grf gave wrong length to openttd
15:58:28 <glx> *say
15:59:04 <Aali> the length shouldn't ever change though, it's a very simple grf
15:59:32 <Aali> (and if the length didn't change, how could it possibly give the "wrong" length?)
16:01:28 <TrueBrain> hmm .. PBS just fucked up :s
16:01:30 <TrueBrain> no idea why ..
16:01:45 <glx> TrueBrain: cargodest?
16:01:46 <Rubidium> probably because you were working on the junction
16:01:50 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: no
16:01:52 <TrueBrain> glx: yes
16:02:04 <glx> it probably needs a sync :)
16:02:18 <TrueBrain> hmm .. the trains 'reversed' or something
16:02:37 <glx> indeed sync needed ;)
16:03:18 * glx tried but he doesn't know enough cargodest's source
16:03:53 <TrueBrain> we all have that problem ;)
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16:04:15 <TrueBrain> I am trying to move away 7k pax ..
16:04:16 <TrueBrain> hard :p
16:04:23 <glx> you'll fail
16:05:27 <Rubidium> use ships
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16:06:14 <TrueBrain> it is (running cost) cheaper to run aircrafts over distances than using trains :)
16:06:44 <TrueBrain> ha .. 4.5k ..
16:07:15 <TrueBrain> 4k .. getting there ;)
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16:10:28 <TrueBrain> k, time for some food :) Bye all :)
16:13:42 <George> Rubidium: about FS2514 - how I can collect more information to help you?
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16:21:31 <Aali> glx: it's actually a problem with AdmiralAI
16:21:34 <Aali> Yexo :)
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16:26:21 <OwenS> TrueBrain, I'll leave this for your return: Your train didn't happen to reverse at a normal signal then sit forever in a PBS block did it? ;-)
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16:35:02 <Yexo> Aali: what train grf are you using?
16:35:14 <Aali> tropic refurbishment set
16:35:39 <Yexo> and what cargo did the too long train transport?
16:35:59 <Aali> copper
16:36:17 <Aali> it only builds too long trains when the engine is long though
16:36:24 <Yexo> that shouldn't matter
16:36:27 <Aali> with short engines, its okay
16:36:44 <Yexo> it builds the engine and then adds wagons until the total train is too long, then it removes the last wagon
16:37:09 <Yexo> did the train become too long after reversing maybe?
16:37:45 <Tim> Hm, if you build the train yourself, which length does it show in the depot?
16:37:58 <Tim> Maybe it shows e.g. length 8, but in reality is more like 8,5
16:38:23 <glx> then it's grf fault :)
16:39:16 <Yexo> Tim: the length shown is determined by ottd iirc, so it'll display 9 if the lenght is 8,1
16:39:26 <Aali> this grf doesn't use any fancy callbacks or anything
16:39:37 <Yexo> Aali: what train was it (type)?
16:39:49 <Aali> let me see if that sell attempt fails..
16:40:38 <Tim> Yexo: Yes, but maybe the grf tells OTTD that the train is 8 tiles long, when it is like 8,1 in reality. If you build the train yourself, you could see whether this is the case
16:41:35 <Aali> Tim: that makes no sense
16:41:45 <Yexo> Tim: the lenght of the train is the length the grf tells it has, both in the depot and after that. The only problem can be is that the length of the train can be changed via callbacks that are called when leaving the depot and when reversing
16:41:49 <petern> if it tells ottd it's 8 tiles long then it's 8 tiles long
16:42:08 <Tim> okay :)
16:42:38 <petern> not that a grf ever 'says' such a thing
16:42:48 <Tim> :D
16:43:07 <Aali> Yexo: reproduced it with Class 25C engine and the smallest Water Tankers
16:43:11 <petern> it can only set individual engine/wagon lengths
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16:45:37 <Yexo> Aali: I can reproduce thatby hand in recent trunk (in the depot it shows length 10, but the tile just before the station is not cleared). So it's either a newgrf or a trunk issue.
16:46:23 <Rubidium> it recalculates the length (including newgrf callbacks) just before leaving the depot
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16:47:19 <petern> what is the actual problem? heh
16:47:42 <George> Rubidium: about FS2514 - any ECS vector causes crash
16:47:42 <Rubidium> a train's too long
16:48:10 <Yexo> petern: the train show length 10 (5 tiles) in the depot, but as soon as it leaves the depot and goesto a 5-tile long station, it doesn't clear (with pbs) the rail tile just before the station, thereby blocking other trains
16:48:10 <petern> an AI built a train too long for a platform?
16:48:54 <Yexo> no, the AI builds a train that has exactly the right length (when it's in the depot), but the length changes as soon as it leaves the depot (by means of a newgrf callback).
16:49:15 <Yexo> either that or there is a bug in trunk, but I doubt that, as this same problem was fixed by Rubidium some time ago
16:49:44 <Aali> I've got the grf right here, which callback/var/property am I looking for?
16:49:46 <petern> then it's a newgrf bug cos the length shouldn't really change
16:50:15 <petern> 0x11
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16:50:29 <frosch123> the length is cached and verified that it does not change outside of depots
16:50:36 <petern> or prop 31
16:51:01 <DaleStan> I'd be surprised. That'd require, at best, an incompetent newgrf author, and likely a malicious one. It's not that hard to not check the stopped/running state in that CB.
16:51:11 <Yexo> frosch123: does that include the time of leaving the depot, or is it allowed to change between displaying in the depot and leaving the depot?
16:51:18 <frosch123> btw. there was some bug some month ago, were too short front engines stopped too early
16:51:43 <frosch123> it should only change, when wagons are arranged, refitted, etc...
16:52:20 <frosch123> +h
16:52:28 <petern> DaleStan, yeah, it takes effort to make it change :)
16:52:40 <Yexo> frosch123: should or can?
16:52:59 <Aali> hmm
16:54:58 <Aali> the grf does mess with the length, but I have no idea why
16:55:18 <Aali> or when
16:56:34 <Aali> oh
16:56:37 <Aali> now I see it
16:57:09 <Aali> AdmiralAI refits AFTER checking the length
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16:57:26 <tom0004> yay! stuck pixels :|
16:57:49 <Yexo> Aali: does refitting cause the wagon length to change?
16:58:05 <Aali> wait, that's not right..
16:58:11 <petern> it can do
16:58:12 <Aali> you can't even refit those wagons
16:58:18 <petern> heh
16:59:23 <goodger> tom0004: wikipedia suggests flashing primary colours at high speed
16:59:27 <Aali> the engine (Class 25C and some others) returns different values for different CargoID's though
16:59:38 <petern> that's normal
16:59:42 <petern> you can't refit outside of a depot
17:00:03 <Yexo> Aali: that still doesn't explain the issue in trunk with the class 25 and water wagosn
17:00:04 <petern> goodger, a hammer would do it
17:00:11 <Aali> Yexo: indeed
17:00:16 <goodger> petern: would have to be a very small hammer
17:00:30 <Yexo> I'll fix the (possible) problem with having a too long train after refitting though
17:00:44 <goodger> I can barely see subpixels at 15cm away
17:01:19 <Aali> could it be possible that the callback only activates when it leaves the depot?
17:01:26 <frosch123> Aali: you should really send the train to depot, and check whether it is too long, or whether the train stopped before reaching the end of the platform
17:02:13 <Yexo> frosch123: I already did that. The train shows length 10 in the depot, but it doesn't fit in a 5-tile station
17:02:16 <Aali> so, when you build it, it isn't carrying anything, you add some wagons (and the callback isn't called here) but when you leave the depot it suddenly has a cargo type?
17:02:36 <Aali> or is that not how it works?
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17:07:37 <Aali> frosch123: it is stopping too early
17:08:34 <Aali> I can make it fit in the station by start/stopping it manually
17:08:38 <frosch123> @openttd commit 14526
17:08:38 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Commit by rubidium :: r14526 /trunk/src (station_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp) (2008-10-24 20:53:57 UTC)
17:08:39 <DorpsGek> frosch123: -Fix [FS#2379]: make sure trains stop at the end of a station; a 3/8th length train did stop 2/8th of it's length too early causing a 63/8th long train not to fit in a 4 tile station.
17:09:12 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i am one power outlet short...
17:09:35 <Aali> frosch123: one small problem, this is r14927
17:10:23 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: you can have this one *holds up*
17:10:54 <goodger> I just unplugged a monoxide detector from it; after I noticed the words "made in w. germany" on the detector, it tripped my circuit breaker
17:10:57 <frosch123> so does it also apply to trunk, or only noai. create a savegame with trunk without ais, with only the single train grf, and one depot, one station and one train that shows the problem, and post that to flyspray
17:12:38 <frosch123> he, the old bug was reported by yexo, so blame him :p
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17:16:00 <frosch123> it also helps when the last rail track before the station is horizontal/vertical, so you can see where the last wagon is located
17:17:10 <Aali> I've made a save with two identical trains, one loading, one thats really in the station, you can clearly see that they're not in the same position
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17:19:14 <Eddi|zuHause> better question... i have an extension now, but which one can i safely unplug, to plug the extension in?
17:19:29 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: monitor?
17:19:55 <goodger> enjoy digging around in your cable mass trying to trace the monitor's power cable to the power strip
17:20:34 <Yexo> frosch123:
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17:21:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i took the one where i was pretty sure of that it's the external harddrive
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17:24:17 <Aali> bah, I posted a flyspray entry too :P
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18:06:04 <petern> so
18:06:41 <goodger> so...
18:06:49 <petern> so!!!
18:07:21 <goodger> well then!
18:10:36 <Belugas> nope
18:10:38 <Belugas> not me
18:10:41 <Belugas> Happy Songs for Happy People
18:18:29 <Yexo> Rubidium: docs/landscape.html is not yet updated to reflect the fact that 15 companies are now possible.
18:19:01 <Eddi|zuHause> write a flyspray task ;)
18:19:33 <Yexo> too lazy now to do that :p
18:24:15 <Belugas> or a patch...
18:25:30 <Yexo> I just found out that docs/landscape_grid.html is outdated too, and I'm not sure I can update them both correctly
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18:34:29 <Yexo> I want something like CompanyMask, but for IndustryTypes. What would be the best way to create that (given the current limition of 64 industry types per game)?
18:35:14 <Yexo> I could use vector<bool>, but I heard there was something against that?
18:35:30 <Rubidium> uint16 an hasbit/setbit?
18:35:56 <Yexo> uint16 for 64 types?
18:36:17 <Rubidium> yes, using goodgers integers
18:36:31 <Rubidium> +'
18:37:23 <Yexo> does hasbit/setbit work in uint64 (does that type exist in openttd?)?
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18:38:45 <petern> 1n!
18:38:52 <el_en> petern!
18:38:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see a particular reason why it wouldn't
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18:41:14 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: me neither, but I don't know much about other platforms openttd works on
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18:42:39 <petern> there should be a dos nightly ;)
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18:45:17 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there is a TTDPatch for DOS, why isn't there an OpenTTD for DOS?!?!11einself
18:45:42 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: there isn't?
18:46:06 <Rubidium> the major reason there no nightlies of it is the fact that it kinda fails on real hardware
18:46:13 <Rubidium> <- but in dosbox it works
18:46:16 <Eddi|zuHause> well, not in binary form...
18:47:01 <DaleStan> why isn't there an OpenTTD for DOS?!?!11einself <-- Because OpenTTD for DOS would have to be compiled with L4 and L5 starting at [fs:0] and [gs:0]. :p
18:47:59 <Eddi|zuHause> err... that's kinda too technical...
18:48:35 <George> Does CB 11 not work for the first RV in consist? It looks like it has always a length of 8. Is that intended?
18:48:36 <OwenS> DaleStan, Why not just use DPMI and sidestep real mode segmentation? :P
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18:50:39 <DaleStan> OwenS: Because [fs:si] only takes three bytes, while [DWORD+esi] takes five. (It's a reference to the hassle that is patching L4 and L5 accesses in TTDPatch.)
18:51:30 <frosch123> George: it is called, but maybe at the wrong moment, i.e. before all articulated parts are built
18:51:39 <Aali> sweet, a reproducable MSVC crash
18:52:26 <George> and if the vehicle is not articulated?
18:52:38 <el_en> Bjarni!
18:52:49 <Bjarni> that's me :)
18:56:57 <George> DaleStan: Wiki says about prop 21 for trains "This property does not work for the first vehicle in a train (i.e. the engine)". Why is it impotant?
18:57:33 <Aali> glx: got another "fun" NoAI bug for you :)
18:57:45 <glx> explain
18:58:17 <Aali> if you activate AIs in multiplayer clients will try to run AIs (from Load_AIPL) which obviously asserts instantly
18:58:25 <DaleStan> <Yexo> I could use vector<bool>, but I heard there was something against that? <-- The problem with vector<bool> is that it is not a container. If you don't need iterators, then I think everything should work.
18:58:32 <glx> and please go in #openttd.noai for all noai related stuff :)
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18:59:01 <George> AFAIR, my tests long ago in TTDP with CB 11 worked rather fine (I had a train of two parts - 50% and 37% shorter)
18:59:02 <DaleStan> George: Ask patchman.
18:59:23 <DaleStan> That's before my time.
18:59:31 <George> DaleStan: Is he here?
18:59:43 <DaleStan> He's in the other place.
18:59:50 <George> What place
19:00:08 * glx guesses #tycoon
19:02:53 <petern> Bjarni... exists?
19:03:02 <George> OTTD devs: Would it be possible to allow smaller lengths of the first engine in the consist? (see comment to prop 21)
19:03:58 <Bjarni> I have been busy for a while (and ill so I didn't feel like coding/being online) and people assume that I died or something :S
19:04:54 <el_en> Bjarni: well you said you've been ill and in a hospital, and then you disappear for over a month...
19:05:13 <glx> Aali: it's because TrueBrain did something wrong in r14917 :)
19:05:36 <Aali> right :)
19:06:02 <Bjarni> el_en: right... well I didn't die or go to any hospital this time XD
19:06:41 * petern stops being licked to death
19:06:53 <Bjarni> licked?
19:07:11 <Rubidium> George: do you know what nightly is the last known working one for FS#2514?
19:07:23 <Rubidium> and thus which one is the first broken
19:08:06 <glx> Aali: try
19:08:47 <George> I have only 14845, but if you'll tel me how to download ones inbetween, I can download and test
19:09:26 <glx> George:
19:10:53 <George> glx: I'll try
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19:18:59 <George> glx: and why win32 version is not represented in folder?
19:20:29 <el_en> has everyone noticed that €1 ≈ £1, and taken advantage of that?
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19:20:52 <Yexo> George: there was a bug last night so compiling failed iirc
19:22:20 <George> Then I suppose the problem may be because I loaded win9x version and did not had a look, that it is not win32 version. Than it is not strange that it crashes :)
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19:23:02 <OwenS> el_en: I've noticed, to my disadvantage :-(
19:23:12 <Wolf01> hello
19:23:49 <George> at least 14937 works fine again and I can't reproduce any crash I had
19:29:05 <Bjarni> hi Wolf01
19:29:20 <Wolf01> hello Bjarni
19:29:36 <De_Ghosty> NOT_REACHED triggered at line 948 of ..\src\string.cpp
19:29:41 <De_Ghosty> fix it
19:29:42 <De_Ghosty> fix it
19:31:11 <Wolf01> you have hands, fix it yourself :D
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19:34:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14938 /trunk/src/ (settings.cpp settings_gui.cpp): -Fix: some small inconsistencies w.r.t. "0 is disabled" setting handling
19:39:33 <De_Ghosty> i can't commit
19:39:42 <De_Ghosty> what's the point of fixing it
19:39:53 <Wolf01> make a patch and send it to devs
19:40:01 <Wolf01> they will be happy
19:40:06 <edeca> De_Ghosty: Eh, that's silly, where do you think some feature enhancements are from?
19:42:24 <el_en> well De_Ghosty has a point.
19:43:03 <Alberth> ...
19:43:04 <Rubidium> De_Ghosty: what's the point in fixing a bug we (the devs) are not experiencing?
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19:43:22 <edeca> Why should the devs bother coding for platforms they don't use? Or adding features they don't like?
19:43:45 <el_en> edeca: well do they bother?
19:44:10 <edeca> el_en: For features, sure. For platforms, possibly not as much
19:44:37 <De_Ghosty> what indeed
19:44:41 <petern> platforms like OS X? :p
19:44:48 <De_Ghosty> who use osx
19:44:49 <Rubidium> just look at OS X... it doesn't work for all languages
19:44:51 <De_Ghosty> drop!
19:45:00 <De_Ghosty> lol
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19:46:27 <edeca> And most of the devs seem to speak english, why should they bother translating? ;)
19:46:55 <Rubidium> do devs (except glx) translate?
19:47:06 <edeca> Rubidium: You provided the framework for it, I'm assuming
19:47:20 <edeca> Rubidium: You at least committed it, which means you accept some responsibility for making it work
19:47:28 <edeca> Rubidium: Heck, I was sticking up for you! ;)
19:48:07 <Rubidium> more languages is more an educational thing ;)
19:48:16 <nicfer> I would like that houses weren't so spacious in OTTD
19:48:24 <edeca> Heh, maybe I should play in German or something
19:48:24 *** fjb has joined #openttd
19:48:30 <fjb> Hello
19:48:49 <edeca> Vorsprung durch technik and all that
19:48:52 <edeca> fjb: Hello!
19:48:54 <nicfer> currently a house can hold 65 inhabitants, which is kinda unrealistic
19:49:09 <petern> nicfer, go away
19:50:04 <Eddi|zuHause> edeca: "Überholen ohne einzuholen"
19:50:20 <nicfer> reducing the houses' capacity would have more effects than more realism
19:50:35 <Rubidium> nicfer: go write a newgrf
19:50:37 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: I agree
19:50:39 *** nicfer was kicked by Belugas (FUCK REALISM !!!)
19:50:47 <petern> ah ha
19:50:49 *** nicfer has joined #openttd
19:50:57 <Rubidium> someone got really annoying ;)
19:51:02 <Belugas> yar!!
19:51:16 <nicfer> I'm not going totally for realism
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19:51:29 <petern> a house as shown in game does not represent an individual house
19:51:43 <nicfer> what molests me is the scaling
19:51:46 <Eddi|zuHause> edeca: that was a propaganda phrase that was used in east germany, usually in conjunction with a statistics of the next useless product they could find, which had higher production rate than west germany
19:52:02 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: Heh! I made sure it wasn't rude then just agreed :)
19:52:38 <energetic> I am tring to build ottd, installed vs2k8, tortoisesvn, downloaded code, tried compiling. FAIL with 7 errors - errors like "cant find png.h". This makes me believe I do not have all source files?
19:52:45 <Eddi|zuHause> translation means something like "overtaking without catching up"
19:52:48 <nicfer> bus stops of the size of a house?
19:52:55 <edeca> energetic: It's much easier to compile in cygwin
19:52:59 <nicfer> that affects more than realism
19:53:03 <Rubidium> energetic: openttd depends on some libraries and related headers
19:53:15 <edeca> nicfer: It's pointless arguing about specifics, but sure as hell most busses are longer than my house is wide.
19:53:19 <edeca> nicfer: Perhaps you're really rich.
19:53:32 <energetic> ok, and those libs arent donwloaded when I checked out ottd 063...?
19:53:59 <Rubidium> energetic: no, but take a look at
19:54:18 <edeca> energetic: Try cygwin too, there's a great tutorial on the wiki and it works well
19:54:23 <nicfer> in multiplayer, it's common to see companies steal passengers from others in cities
19:54:24 <Belugas> nicfer, how many times should it be repeated ??? IT's a game, with its OWN REALITTY. DOn't try to adjust it to yoyurs, enjoy it for waht it is.goddam
19:54:28 <dihedral> can anybody let me stream it crows?
19:54:31 <dihedral> *crowd
19:54:44 <edeca> dihedral: Have you tried turning it off and on again?
19:54:45 <petern> "steal passengers" haha
19:55:01 <energetic> tnx rubidium. the link I followed in the wiki is almost empty:
19:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> <nicfer> bus stops of the size of a house? <- a bus is not significantly shorter than an average 1 family home
19:55:41 <Rubidium> energetic: if only you looked at the few links at the bottom of that page ;)
19:56:00 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: Like I said, busses are bigger than my house ;)
19:56:15 <nicfer> how could 8 companies make profit from taking passengers from a small city?
19:56:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that relation is one of the closest to being "realistic"
19:56:36 <energetic> ah, its a doorway page...
19:56:40 <energetic> now i see....
19:56:42 * edeca gives up and goes to play
19:57:02 <energetic> edeca:
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19:57:16 <edeca> energetic:
19:57:22 <edeca> Ooh, secret talking!
19:57:25 <energetic> i tried cygwin before, a few more times, but i seem to always fail on default
19:57:35 <energetic> with cygwin
19:57:48 <energetic> where i seem to succeed by default with vs2kx
19:58:12 <edeca> energetic: Aah :)
19:58:13 <energetic> dont ask me why, i prolly am MS indoctrinated.... cant help that.
19:58:17 <edeca> energetic: What fails, out of interest?
19:59:27 <energetic> edeca: it's a psycho thing. I have to learn vygwin each time again. after a long time, i get it running with stutters. i know its nice though.
19:59:42 <edeca> energetic: I'm the other way round, I use linux more so am used to it
19:59:47 <energetic> its more that _I_ fail, instead of cygwin.
19:59:48 <edeca> energetic: I guess it depends what you're used to
19:59:48 * nicfer gets interesed in the shared structure patch
20:00:28 <edeca> nicfer: What's that?
20:01:39 <petern> it is a patch for infrastructure that is shared
20:01:48 * edeca googles
20:02:08 <nicfer>
20:02:27 <nicfer> it was infrastructure, not structure
20:04:01 <nicfer> and any chance of getting the airport noise function extended to road/rail stations and docks?
20:04:35 <edeca> nicfer: Code it yourself damnit :)
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20:07:17 <edeca> Hm, what could be wrong if ottd crashes due to newgrfs but doesn't list those which are 'missing'?
20:08:05 <Rubidium> then it failed somewhere else in the saveload
20:08:20 <edeca> Hm, I built with debug, let's see if that helps
20:08:29 <edeca> Or I could just start a new game with some new newgrfs, that might be more fun
20:08:59 <edeca> Weird, it loaded now I ran with -d1 :)
20:09:05 <Alberth> edeca: also enable core dump
20:10:22 <nicfer> oh, other question, would be possible to place railways without owner (or owned by a city)?
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20:10:51 <edeca> nicfer: What for?
20:11:10 <energetic> Can I use the directx sdk of nov 2008 instead of aug 2007?
20:12:17 <Rubidium> energetic: no, you can't
20:12:22 <energetic> ok tnx
20:12:33 <nicfer> it would be useful for when companies go bankrupt with track sharing
20:12:41 <energetic> the FAQ says different though
20:12:45 <nicfer> currently it's possible with roads
20:12:51 <Belugas> shut up troll
20:12:52 <energetic> "Install the version November 2007 or later"
20:12:57 <Rubidium> then someone fracked up the faq
20:13:10 <Rubidium> cause august 2007 is the last one with directmusic
20:13:16 <Rubidium> anything later doesn't have that
20:14:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14939 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp:
20:14:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Follow standard *ChangeInfo() pattern for global variables during
20:14:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: reservation. Whilst not strictly necessary for global variables, following the
20:14:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: same pattern makes it easier to follow. This also solves the long standing
20:14:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: ChangeInfoResult/bool warning for MSVC.
20:14:34 <Rubidium> oh... what the FAQ says is install something, then extract the august 2007 version and copy some files
20:14:59 <Rubidium> which means mixing directx sdk versions and that might work, but I wouldn't bet on it
20:15:46 <glx> wow we finally got this warning fixed
20:15:49 <Yexo> I've followed that faq (using the directx sdk august 2008) and the only way I can compile now is by disabling music
20:16:51 <Rubidium> so it's official... a fracker updated the directx sdk version to the latest without testing, just because there was a new sdk
20:17:10 <edeca> :)
20:18:18 <Rubidium> anyhow... I'm not touching it as I can't test whether what I would be saying actually works
20:18:42 *** nicfer has left #openttd
20:18:59 <Rubidium> but all I know is that the directx sdk august 2007 worked (as of august 2008 with msvc 2008) and later ones miss directmusic
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20:26:42 <Nite_Owl> Hello all
20:27:12 <dihedral> hu-hu
20:30:30 <Nite_Owl> I am guessing that I should respond with Hello dihedral ?
20:34:03 <frosch123> lol, George: The vehicle callbacks never ever change the bounding box
20:34:11 <frosch123> they overlap instead
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20:37:32 <George> frosch123: Looks like they do. When I chane that grf so that all the vehicels are articulated, BBs are shown shorter. Do you need a screen shot?
20:38:15 <frosch123> also in corner?
20:38:18 <George> All this behaviour makes me very confusing.
20:38:25 <glx> George: to reproduce the newgrf window crashes I just need to open and close the window?
20:38:50 <George> frosch123: No, not in corners
20:39:57 <George> glx: FS 2514 - 14920 for win9x under win32? yes
20:40:17 <glx> no crash for me :/
20:40:41 <frosch123> George: you can see in your 7+4+5 that all BB have length 8
20:40:45 <frosch123> the same applies to trains
20:40:45 <Yexo> I have another (maybe the same) crash with the newgrf window
20:41:05 <Yexo> Open it, select any preset and then click on one of the newgrfs
20:42:04 <Yexo> that is using r14936 btw
20:42:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r14940 /trunk/src/ (news_gui.cpp statusbar_gui.cpp statusbar_gui.h): -Fix: let the statusbar know the current news are invalid or bad things will happen
20:43:05 <George> glx: in r14937 I simply run the game and minimize the window. Then the crash window popups
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20:47:21 <energetic> tnx for elaborating, rubidium
20:50:01 <George> frosch123: what a pity that you have closed FS2518 soo quickly! I could put some more GRFs and screen shots there :)
20:50:17 <petern> for what reason?
20:51:19 <frosch123> George: why do you bother about the bounding boxes? the articulated parts have the correct distant to each other nevertheless
20:52:27 <George> I hope they are, but I'm looking for a way to control it. I supposed I could use BBs to control it
20:52:48 <petern> to control what?
20:53:31 <George> I want to make longer RVs in a form like 6-4-6, where only the midle part has graphics, while other are invisible
20:54:12 <George> petern: to control position in the TTD world (BBs) to achieve less glitches
20:54:55 <petern> the bounding box is not really the cause of glitches when trying to use longer vehicles
20:55:26 <George> As you can remember, I planned to do LV5 in 2008-th. I asked to provide large RVs, but got ananswer to make them articulated. Now I decided to try it the articulated way
20:55:55 <George> petern: Can you suggest other way to controll glitches?
20:58:25 <glx> George: what AI is/are used in FS#2514 ?
20:59:05 <George> admiralai = start_date=12,use_busses=1,use_trucks=1,use_planes=1,use_trains=1,build_statues=1,always_autorenew=0,depot_near_station=1,debug_signs=0
20:59:05 <George> BigBrain = start_date=12,use_busses=1,use_trucks=1,use_planes=1,use_trains=1,build_statues=1,always_autorenew=0,depot_near_station=1,debug_signs=0
20:59:05 <George> Jinjaba = start_date=12
20:59:05 <George> saintai = start_date=12
20:59:05 <George> Convoy = start_date=12,Agressive=1
20:59:07 <George> pathzilla = start_date=12,latency=0,aggressive=1
20:59:07 <George> wrightai = start_date=12,min_town_size=500
20:59:34 <George> I suppose OTTD uses AIs listed in cfg file?
20:59:51 <Yexo> George: yes
21:00:25 <George> AI folder has the following dirs:
21:00:27 <George> 05.01.2009 23:14 <DIR> admiralai
21:00:27 <George> 05.01.2009 12:28 <DIR> BigBrain
21:00:27 <George> 27.12.2008 21:13 <DIR> Convoy
21:00:27 <George> 18.07.2008 20:23 <DIR> Jinjaba
21:00:27 <George> 09.01.2009 17:26 <DIR> library
21:00:29 <George> 27.12.2008 14:24 <DIR> pathzilla
21:00:29 <George> 09.01.2009 17:26 <DIR> regression
21:00:31 <George> 27.12.2008 21:16 <DIR> robotAI
21:00:31 <George> 27.12.2008 21:17 <DIR> saintai
21:00:33 <George> 09.01.2009 17:26 <DIR> wrightai
21:00:43 <glx> compress the folder and attach it to the task :)
21:00:55 <glx> will be easier for me
21:01:01 <George> AI folser or OTTD folder?
21:01:05 <Yexo> <+glx> compress the folder and attach it to the task :) <- you should lookout with that for AIs that don't specify a licence :p
21:01:40 <glx> Yexo: I just don't want to search for them on the forum
21:01:53 <glx> George: AI folder + openttd.cfg
21:02:14 <Yexo> glx: I don't care myself, and I don't think anyone does
21:02:33 <glx> and AIs are not like newgrf anyway :)
21:02:49 <Yexo> that doesn't say they can't have a licence :)
21:03:02 <George> glx: done
21:03:27 <petern> guys
21:03:57 <petern> just make a statement that AIs must be ... blah blah blah distributable blah blah blah
21:04:02 <petern> although
21:04:16 <petern> whatever :)
21:04:33 <Yexo> petern: that's impossible
21:04:57 <Yexo> for the new tournament server it'll hopefully be a requirement though that submitted Ais are gpl
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21:09:54 <George> frosch123: Sorry, was mistaken about BBs. Confused myself :(
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21:21:58 <dihedral> does anybody know the name of the title song of the it crowd?
21:24:32 <Sacro> yes
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21:26:07 <dihedral> Sacro: care to share?
21:26:15 <Sacro> I don't know it personally
21:26:20 <Sacro> but someone must
21:27:30 <mrfrenzy> probably knows
21:29:06 <joachim> wikipedia knows the composer
21:30:48 <Aali> found and fixed another bug in my cargodest merge \o/
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21:41:05 <el_en> why didn't anyone tell me the СССР had two very successful rovers on moon?
21:44:35 <petern> < those were the days
21:45:48 <Sacro> what happen?
21:46:27 <joachim> somebody set up us the bomb
21:46:53 <joachim> oh.
21:47:03 <joachim> that was the thing
21:47:33 <Belugas> el_en, why didn't you tell us you were interested in knowing that? And why should we care about that anyway?
21:50:41 <dihedral> ha ha ha
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22:14:50 <SmatZ> el_en: because of anti-cccp propaganda?
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22:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> <George> I want to make longer RVs in a form like 6-4-6, where only the midle part has graphics, while other are invisible <- what i said previously: i believe, what is needed, is a flag/callback/whatever for certain articulated vehicles to specify "no bend", and the drawing code handling them, as drawing them relative to the position of the previous vehicle, not on the position of the current vehicle
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22:36:02 <Tim> Hm, too bad, i'd love to have a cargodest build with the new features in trunk... :-/
22:36:05 <George> Eddi|zuHause: And why should it be ARTICULATED? IMHO (devs has other opinion) it would be better to have single vehicles of a larger size, like it was done in TTDP.
22:36:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r14941 /branches/noai/src/saveload/ai_sl.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix (r14841): remove an unneeded file (sync failure again \o/)
22:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> George: because longer vehicles do not fit in tunnels, whereas two half-vehicles would
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22:37:12 <frosch123> this discussion is silly, long vehicles will always glitch as there is just no room on the tiles
22:37:19 <frosch123> even the current vehicles are too long :p
22:37:24 <Eddi|zuHause> if the front half drives into a tunnel, the back half would be drawn like a normal vehicle
22:37:38 <energetic> when is 0.7 planned?
22:37:50 <frosch123> right after dbset 0.9
22:38:05 <Rubidium> and just before ttdp 2.5
22:38:46 <energetic> okok i mean, is there any timeframe 07 is expected?
22:38:49 <Aali> Tim: that's not a problem if you can compile it yourself
22:38:50 <Eddi|zuHause> will be packaged with duke nukem forever
22:39:11 <energetic> jjust curious ;)
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22:39:45 <George> frosch123, Rubidium, Eddi|zuHause:
22:39:49 <Tim> But would i not have to merge cargodest to trunk myself then? I'm sure there would be errors which i can certainly not sort out myself ;)
22:40:07 <George> Ideas? I need to come to some solution about LV5
22:40:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i will not be starting openttd for at least one week...
22:40:44 <frosch123> George: take a look at dbset, it also has long engines (some electric ones) which are made of multiple parts
22:40:55 <frosch123> they look ok on straight track
22:41:05 <frosch123> on slopes and in corners there is generally no solution
22:41:25 <Aali> Tim: I have a bundle with the merge I've done, which should work properly now :P you'd just have to unbundle that in the hg repo, update and compile
22:42:26 <George> frosch123: I understand, that everything is very bad from every side :S , but something has to be dine
22:42:33 <George> I want LV5
22:42:49 <frosch123> just split the vehicles in multiple parts
22:43:09 <frosch123> and don't care when they move against each other in corners and on slopes
22:43:21 <George> How do you see the 15m single body bus to be splited?
22:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> in the middle...
22:44:33 <Tim> Aali: Hm, i guess it would take some time until i learn to do so ;)
22:45:05 <George> And a front part of a single body is turned according to the other? Eddi|zuHause, it would make everybody mad :S At least me for sure
22:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i suggested the "no bend" flag. it just has to be implemented...
22:45:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r14942 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai_instance.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix (r14878)[FS#2517]: don't forget to remove any references to a deleted object
22:46:11 <George> Eddi|zuHause: But how would it look like? I mean in corners?
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22:47:38 <frosch123> George: that is the best you can get
22:48:21 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the no bend flag does not help at all, as the vehicles would stick out of the tile and glitch with everything
22:49:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14943 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: remove some rogue spaces/replace some rogue tabs with spaces
22:49:11 <George> frosch123: Sorry, but imho is better.
22:49:23 <Eddi|zuHause> they glitch with _something_ for sure, but the main problems imho with long vehicles are:
22:49:43 <Eddi|zuHause> a) glitches in road stations, which would be impossible, since articulated vehicles cannot enter them
22:50:01 <Eddi|zuHause> b) glitches in tunnels, vehicles disappearing when half of it would still be visible
22:50:10 <Eddi|zuHause> both of these could be solved
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22:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause> glitches in curves are lesser, because there is usually more space at the "hangover" (:P) part
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22:51:36 <Eddi|zuHause> means as long as you do not overdo it with the length, it should usually be fine
22:52:16 <frosch123> George: as you like, just that they glitch with foundations, tunnels, depots, ...
22:53:00 <George> I know. I think I should Make a poll. Let's see what users think
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22:54:12 <petern> this is merely a problem for you, other sets don't seem to need vehicles so long
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22:56:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14944 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 5 dirs): -Cleanup: add spaces around some operators
22:57:30 <worldemar> Hi there! yesterday i had played openttd and noticed that my rail stations does not accept oil whet built 1 sqare far from oil refinery, but AI's do. Is it normal?
22:58:02 <glx> yes, not all tiles of an industry accept everything
22:58:12 <glx> use the query tool
22:58:14 <George> And is var 45 (Curvature info) avalable for RVs?
22:58:39 <Rubidium> for refineries the towers with the fire accept the oil
22:58:43 <frosch123> if (v->type != VEH_TRAIN) return 0; <- no
22:58:54 <petern> it could be though
22:59:14 <frosch123> but there is no reason to allow them :)
22:59:29 <frosch123> +not
22:59:44 <George> I suppose this would allow to apply both your and my solution
23:00:21 <George> frosch123: So, it could be done?
23:00:39 <Rubidium> so much can be done, but all takes time
23:00:39 <frosch123> it's a one-liner
23:01:15 <George> frosch123: Do you mean it can be done EASILY? Please!
23:05:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r14945 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Feature(ette): Support var 0x45 (curvature info) also for road vehicles.
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23:05:37 <Eddi|zuHause> lmao ;)
23:05:56 <George> Cool! Thank you frosch123!
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23:26:02 * TrueBrain waves :)
23:26:44 <Tim> Hm, what would you say, how long would it take to learn coding NewGRF Industries?
23:26:48 <Eddi|zuHause> no use waving after him, he is probably long gone after 7 minutes :p
23:27:17 <Tim> Aim: Creating my own Industry-Set based on the original industries, with some changes and some new industries
23:27:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Tim: two days, two weeks, two years
23:27:57 <Eddi|zuHause> two days to learn NFO basics, two weeks to learn newindustries basics, two years to design a set
23:28:07 <Tim> Uff
23:28:11 <Tim> How frustrating *g*
23:28:23 <TrueBrain> sounds like a nice estimated :)
23:28:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14946 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Fix: copying a location from the extra viewport to the main viewport did not cancel vehicle following
23:28:45 <frosch123> Tim: when you know how to program a micro controller with no registers except one accumulator you should be good prepared
23:29:10 <frosch123> infact newindustries without graphics should be the easiest newgrf task
23:29:12 <Tim> Haha, good one
23:29:17 <Eddi|zuHause> if only anyone had done a high level language to be transformed into nfo...
23:30:14 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14947 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix [FS#2519]: vehicle following did not update the location from where to smooth scroll, thus any new viewport center would smooth scroll from the location where you were just before you started following the vehicle
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23:30:39 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: feel free
23:30:43 <TrueBrain> I supply you with the basics
23:30:45 <TrueBrain> you do the rest
23:30:45 <TrueBrain> k?
23:30:47 <joachim> thanks Rubidium
23:31:07 <joachim> (since most comments seems to be complaints or requests)
23:31:11 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i have the basics... (the thread and a preview version is in the forums)
23:31:18 <Eddi|zuHause> what i need is time...
23:31:25 <TrueBrain> fair enough :)
23:32:15 <TrueBrain> like we all need :)
23:32:31 <Tim> Hm, which grf features some nice Passenger-Train-Stations? As an addition to the ISR-Set
23:32:44 <Tim> I know there are many different, just give me one good one :D
23:33:05 <frosch123> newstations only has passenger stations, so maybe you find some nice :p
23:33:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i practically only use MB's stations
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23:36:05 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: btw, url?
23:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... search for "newgrf description language" in the ttdpatch graphics forum
23:36:51 <Eddi|zuHause> don't expect too much ;)
23:36:54 <TrueBrain> I hate searching :)
23:36:57 <TrueBrain> but tnx anyway :)
23:42:03 <Sacro> timidity is dropping instruments :(
23:42:35 <Eddi|zuHause> does it smash guitars on the stage?
23:42:45 <Sacro> how do i pass timidity parameters? need to tell it -Od
23:43:23 <Eddi|zuHause> from the config file?
23:44:00 <Sacro> ahh
23:44:09 <Sacro> alias timidity=timidity -Od
23:44:30 <Tim> So, finally i'm about to set up my new game :) With BaseCostsMod, Expensive Bridges, ECS Town, Basic and Machinery, DBSetXL, GRVTS, NewShips, Aviators Aircraft, ISR and NewStations :)
23:44:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd have said: extmidi = timidity -Od
23:45:04 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: doesn't work
23:45:05 <Eddi|zuHause> what is "expensive bridges"?
23:45:20 <Sacro> hmm, do i need to use padsp
23:45:28 <el_en> are there any platforms currently that have an endianness other than big or little?
23:45:39 <Sacro> hmm
23:45:46 <Eddi|zuHause> and why not use total bridge renewal? they look lovely :)
23:46:11 <Eddi|zuHause> el_en: i am certain there is, but i don't think they are actually widespread :p
23:46:13 <glx> <Eddi|zuHause> i'd have said: extmidi = timidity -Od <-- invalid since r14909
23:46:16 <Sacro> right, timidity can play it just fine
23:46:21 <Sacro> glx: what is the replacement?
23:46:22 <OwenS> el_en: I presume PDPs don't count :p
23:46:40 <glx> musicdriver = extmidi:cmd=...
23:47:01 <glx> instead "extmidi = ..."
23:47:09 <el_en> indeed PDPs were middle-endian, but i suppose they are a bit out of scope for most coders, even the ones who like old systems.
23:47:23 <TrueBrain> I hate microsoft ... everyone was getting used to using QR barcodes to give information to phones via the camera ... now microsoft has invented his own format, completely different .. AND stores information on THEIR global server .... /me hates microsoft
23:48:11 <Tim> hmhmhm... Why doesn't DBSetXL work? Isn't it suited for arctic? :-/
23:48:20 <Sacro> glx: musicdriver = extmidi:timidity -Od
23:48:21 <Sacro> ?
23:48:22 <Eddi|zuHause> the microsoft definition of "standard": whatever the others agreed on, we do it differently!
23:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Tim: no, only temperate
23:48:45 <Sacro> @version 14909
23:48:45 <DorpsGek> Sacro: version takes no arguments
23:48:47 <Eddi|zuHause> or arctic with alpine grf
23:48:48 <glx> Sacro: yes (if I understood the commit message)
23:48:51 <Sacro> @history 14909
23:48:53 <Sacro> err,
23:48:58 <Sacro> @commit 14909
23:48:58 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Commit by peter1138 :: r14909 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2009-01-08 12:05:14 UTC)
23:48:59 <DorpsGek> Sacro: -Codechange: Remove global option for the extmidi driver and make it a driver parameter with the name cmd instead. This means if you have an "extmidi = ..." line in your config you must change it to "musicdriver = extmidi:cmd=...", in the [misc] section.
23:49:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: musicdriver = extmidi:cmd=timidity -Od
23:49:55 <frosch123> Tim: could be your first exercise :) create a grf that does nothing but uses the grfid of "alpine" :p
23:49:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r14948 /trunk/src/ (statusbar_gui.cpp statusbar_gui.h): -Codechange: enumification and more comments in the statusbar code
23:50:04 <Sacro> that doesn't work
23:50:25 <Sacro> sigh
23:50:45 <Tim> frosch123: And what would be the use of that? :)
23:51:09 <Sacro> of course it doesn't help that openttd keeps removing the last quote
23:51:10 <frosch123> then you can use dbset in arctic, though I guess you would need the ecs addition to transport arctic cargo
23:51:21 <Sacro> petern: it keeps doing s/"$//
23:51:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Tim: it tricks the disabling check in dbset
23:51:27 <Sacro> it is most annoying
23:52:07 <Tim> I got the extension... And i only need to place a grf containing the grfid of arctic somewhere in my grflist?
23:52:23 <frosch123> s/arctic/alpine/
23:52:24 <Eddi|zuHause> not arctic, alpine
23:52:28 <petern> you can't supply parameters directly
23:52:30 <petern> (yet)
23:52:46 <Sacro> petern: so revert the commit
23:52:49 <Sacro> at least it worked before
23:52:59 <petern> you couldn't before either
23:53:07 <Sacro> i used an alias before
23:53:09 <Sacro> that worked
23:53:19 <glx> it should still work
23:53:26 <Tim> And what is the alpine climate? ;) Thought the snowy one was called arctic
23:53:37 <glx> Tim: alpine grf
23:53:44 <Sacro> also, is the end supposed to be in double quotes? cos it keeps removing them
23:53:58 <petern> quotes? what?
23:54:14 <frosch123> Tim:
23:54:19 <glx> Tim: temperate industries and graphics with variable snow line
23:54:20 <Sacro> musicdriver = extmidi:cmd=timidity -Od
23:54:22 <Sacro> is that right?
23:54:39 <petern> no parameters
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23:54:43 <petern> parameters will not work
23:54:59 <Sacro> so how do i pass parameters?
23:55:02 <petern> you can't yet
23:55:07 <Sacro> you could before
23:55:08 <petern> unless you hardcode it
23:55:10 <Sacro> using an alias
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23:55:12 <petern> no you couldn't
23:55:17 <petern> well
23:55:19 <petern> that's using an alias
23:55:23 <petern> you can still use an alias
23:55:25 <Sacro> i'm sure my alias timidity=timidity -Od
23:55:28 <Sacro> worked just fine
23:55:38 <petern> assuming you mean shell alias
23:55:43 <Sacro> yep
23:55:50 <petern> although
23:56:02 <petern> timidity=timidity -Od seems stupid
23:56:10 <Tim> Couldn't i just edit the DBSetXL-grf to be suited to arctic, or is that complicated?
23:56:10 <Sacro> does it?
23:56:20 <petern> naming an alias the same as the command?
23:56:22 <petern> yes
23:56:35 <Sacro> I don't see why
23:56:37 <petern> however
23:56:43 <petern> if that worked before, it'll work now
23:56:46 <Sacro> alias ls = ls --color=auto is just fine
23:57:01 <petern> well, never mind :p
23:57:02 <Sacro> my distro came with that one
23:57:14 <petern> musicdriver extmidi:cmd=timidity
23:57:18 <petern> er
23:57:21 <Sacro> all i want is to get timidity using oss not alsa
23:57:21 <petern> musicdriver = extmidi:cmd=timidity
23:57:45 <Yexo> What is the easiest way to add an array of structs (instead of a struct with arrays) to the savegame/config file as settings? see
23:58:10 <petern> which is, in fact, the default
23:58:15 <petern> so musicdriver = extmidi would be fine
23:58:19 <Sacro> hmm
23:58:29 <Sacro> grr, timidity plays it just fine
23:58:32 <Sacro> openttd doesn;t
23:58:56 <petern> it's called exactly the same. i didn't change that
23:59:18 <Sacro> is it $@ for all arguements?
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