IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-01-04
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00:04:11 <WhiteRhino> Hate it when I'm buildin' trains and I get disconnected.
00:24:45 <Belugas> i hate it too, WhiteRhino. But in my case, i was building rails with Thomas's wooden set with my son when i got connected...
00:26:55 <Alberth> Rubidium: tnx for all the hints on what to do. I still don't understand the sprite count, though (assuming the arrow in sprite 0 is used). Tomorrow I'll try to use the new sprites in the program and see what happens (no doubt the offsets are still wrong).
00:28:40 <curosurf> anyone, know if 0.7.0 will feature more client network options, like favourite, and better sorting?
00:29:23 <curosurf> a real pain finding the right network game sometimes
00:29:37 <Alberth> curosurf: nobody knows until 0.7.0 hits the streets
00:30:14 <curosurf> and I'll watch the commit list
00:31:15 <petern> you could use a nightly
00:31:23 <petern> then you'd see what it does have
00:31:57 <Alberth> are there network servers that run nightlies?
00:32:05 <curosurf> Mmmmn, true. I like the surprise, better option would be to write patch myself
00:32:11 <curosurf> yes, there are a few servers
00:32:38 <Alberth> curosurf: yes, writing a few patches may increase the odds :)
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00:33:46 <curosurf> Alberth: or at least point out what needs changing
00:34:21 <Alberth> those are called suggestions and we have a whole forum full of them
00:35:46 <Eddi|zuHause> 80% of which are rubbish
00:36:00 <curosurf> jumping the gun a little
00:36:00 <curosurf> jumping the gun a little, I admit
00:45:10 <WhiteRhino> Curse you, Dialup. And all you stand for.
00:48:06 * Rubidium wonders where dialup is still common
00:49:29 <enra> outback australia mainly from experience ( work for an isp)
00:50:28 <curosurf> parts of rural UK, northern Scotland
00:50:41 <enra> ok - quite a few then lol
00:52:01 <Rubidium> those poor souls in those areas :(
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00:52:51 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently there are large parts in rural germany which still do not have DSL
00:53:22 <enra> gotta love the 56k gaming
00:53:39 <Wolf01> there are large towns in Italy which don't have DSL
00:54:04 <Rubidium> Italy also has large towns without garbage collection
00:54:25 <Eddi|zuHause> well, almost all major cities in east germany got brand new fibre lines after 1990
00:54:39 <Eddi|zuHause> which then turned out to be very expensive to upgrade for dsl
00:57:37 <WhiteRhino> Rubidium: I'm in Massachusetts. It's a nice place to live but hell on people who enjoy the internet.
00:58:15 * Sacro considers moving to america
00:58:19 <curosurf> Dunno, I'm happy with adsl
00:58:39 <curosurf> runs OpenTTD fine :-)
00:59:04 <Rubidium> that those guys at the northern end of Harvard Bridge haven't come up with a solution if it's that bad
01:00:02 <WhiteRhino> Oddly, Dialup works OpenTTD pretty well. Occasional skipping but mostly around autosave time. Though occasionally stuff just freezes and it takes awhile for the game to realize the network disconnected me.
01:02:08 <Wolf01> I wait until Little Britain night ends
01:11:53 <Wolf01> because it looks like your life?
01:13:27 <Eddi|zuHause> do i really want to watch doctor who confidential?
01:14:10 <Rubidium> doctor who at the proms is more interesting
01:14:22 <Rubidium> and better suited for writing a thesis
01:18:28 <Wolf01> ok, good night, this time for real
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01:26:39 <Belugas> [19:59] * Sacro considers moving to america <-- better to Canada, if yo ask me ^_^
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01:32:45 <WhiteRhino> Grar. Damnable modem.
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02:04:35 <joachim> when intercontinental airports hit in 2002, and i need to upgrade my airport hubs and their immediate connecting railways, i'm suddenly in 2020 and the game is over
02:05:29 <joachim> i'll shut up about daylenght patch from now :)
02:09:04 <WhiteRhino> Dang it.. I keep having trains piling up and waiting at signals.
02:10:56 <joachim> then send less trains or make more exits :)
02:11:16 <WhiteRhino> I did have three trains going to a two-wide station.. *reroutes*
02:12:37 <joachim> that shouldn't be a problem
02:13:23 <joachim> or do you mean the trains were longer than the station length?
02:13:38 <WhiteRhino> I didn't think it would either given the distance.. probably had to do with my having all three on full load. Been a long time since I played this game.
02:15:27 <joachim> could you post a screenshot of your station?
02:16:34 <joachim> three trains on a two track station should never be a problem
02:16:55 <joachim> unless you have a one-track exit/entry
02:18:30 <WhiteRhino> It's one station with a two-track with one-way signals leaving from it.. but another set of two-track and one-way signals kind of connects to the side of the.... damn it.
02:18:45 <WhiteRhino> Every time I start enjoying playing again, the network bumps me. Maybe I should stick to one-player. x.x
02:19:33 <joachim> you said it was a long time since you played, when was that?
02:20:10 <WhiteRhino> Err... *thinks* I'm 25 now and I first started playing my freshman year of highschool.
02:20:55 <WhiteRhino> I mean, it's like riding a bike for the most part. I probably just bottlenecked things with a misplaced signal or something.
02:21:25 <joachim> did you use pre-signals?
02:21:50 <WhiteRhino> *cough* Not entirely sure what those are. I know of signals and one-way signals..
02:22:50 <WhiteRhino> Reconnecting to the map now. Hope things didn't bottleneck again while I was gone this time.
02:22:52 <joachim> there are really many new features that you should read up on
02:23:56 <joachim> especially signalling for making efficient rail networks
02:36:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i was never really fond of the whole "read up on the standard solutions" idea...
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02:40:40 <WhiteRhino> Wow. That's the most I've made with planes like.. ever.
02:44:17 <joachim> if all i knew about was the two-way signal and the one-way signal from ttd, i'd prefer to read up on the basics and technicalities before exploring or having explained the possibilites
02:44:36 <joachim> of the new signals :)
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03:08:14 <WhiteRhino> Bah. And just when I was trying to get rid of a handful of goods trucks that were just driving up and down one street.
03:15:19 <WhiteRhino> Apparently a lot of people want to go from the UK to Saudi Arabia.
03:15:56 <JJAx> Do you like the Aviators Aircraft set?
03:15:59 <WhiteRhino> Got six Darwin 300s going to and from each airport and none of them leave without being full.
03:16:29 <JJAx> The Aviators Aircraft set features the 500 seater A380.
03:16:55 <JJAx> And you can configure the A300 to become a Beluga.
03:16:56 <WhiteRhino> I usually keep away from airplanes and ships like they were covered in plague; I generally make suck for cash.
03:17:39 <JJAx> Do you like airplanes in OTTD?
03:17:44 <WhiteRhino> My fleet of six Coleman Counts were making 16k pounds a trip. These new ones make 80k a trip.
03:18:03 <JJAx> You should get the aviators aircraft set,
03:18:05 <WhiteRhino> I do so far, though I'm only running standard TTD with a fresh OTTD download.
03:18:41 <JJAx> it has the A300 and Beluga, A380, and the concorde with an animated nose.
03:19:33 <JJAx> Coleman Counts are actually Vickers Viscounts.
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03:21:04 <JJAx> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ERROR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
03:21:06 <JJAx> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ERROR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
03:21:07 <JJAx> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ERROR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
03:21:09 <JJAx> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ERROR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
03:21:10 <JJAx> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ERROR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
03:21:28 *** WhiteRhinoPSO is now known as WhiteRhino
03:27:00 <WhiteRhino> Still have never made a decent profit using boats.
03:27:49 <WhiteRhino> Geeze. Meanwhile this one of my six planes has made 487,000 pounds this year alone.
03:31:06 <joachim> how does that work with cargodest - does the individual vehicle profit mean anything?
03:31:45 <joachim> if not, what does it mean?
03:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> joachim: the vehicle profit is essentially the same as transfer credit
03:34:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the company only gets real income on final delivery
03:34:20 <WhiteRhino> I've got a question: for a fleet of coal cars, which would be better for the stations, full ones or drivethroughs?
03:35:11 <Eddi|zuHause> drive through stops have some problems with multistop
03:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. combining several roadstops to one station
03:35:30 <WhiteRhino> Hm. I think I'll stick to normal depots, then, since there's ten of them going.
03:36:53 <joachim> Eddi|zuHause: but they add up to way more than the actual profits, so the transfer credits are, eh.. transferred?
03:43:12 <WhiteRhino> I've got a single truck stuck in the crux of three one-way streets all pointing toward him.. and no exit. And the roads are owned by the botplayer and so I can't destroy them. I think that truck's stuck forever.
03:44:50 <joachim> it'll suffer in hell with my two passengers who still can't find a route to unknown station
03:48:44 <WhiteRhino> Wow. 889,000 pounds per year highest for each plane.
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03:53:38 <LordNokon> is there a way to edit aircraft speeds
03:53:45 <LordNokon> without alot of trouble??
03:55:10 <joachim> probably needs a little trouble then
03:56:52 <LordNokon> any ideas on how to do that
03:57:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the TV program at 5AM is even worse than the one at 5PM
03:58:02 <LordNokon> dont worry eddi, here in south africa, is always useless stuff to watch doesnt matter what time of the day
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04:10:52 <WhiteRhino> ..Keeps telling my Road Vehicle #15 has too few orders. It's stuck, it can't move. ><
04:11:29 <WhiteRhino> Ooh, that makes up for it. 40k on a single coal train shipment.
04:14:37 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
04:15:17 <Eddi|zuHause> how did you get a road vehicle stuck?
04:16:54 <WhiteRhino> Well, I'm on one of the Mega maps.
04:17:06 <WhiteRhino> This one's made to resemble europe, russia, etc.
04:17:37 <WhiteRhino> Highways were made to go around the map, one side one way, the other the other way. The guy who made the map tried to make little turnaround areas.. but this one is screwed up.
04:18:22 <WhiteRhino> Three roads all one-way to a single intersection. The roads are owned by his player, as is the road along the flat of the T-intersection. I can't build roads to get the car out and it can't get out because of the one-ways.
04:19:32 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like fun :p
04:19:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the only option is to talk to the owner
04:20:17 <WhiteRhino> Gah! Train crashhh...
04:20:49 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can stop the vehicle, and set the "check orders" option to "except stopped"
04:22:21 <LordNokon> im playing on the hugh maps, the trainsignals, isnt there a easier way to say one track goes to unload, and one to reload.
04:23:03 <LordNokon> i no you can drag and drop, but you stil have to change each of the signals by hand
04:23:09 <WhiteRhino> I just had a traincrash 'cus I screwed up trying to make a two-track "u-turn" sort of deal.
04:23:32 <LordNokon> ive got like 1000 tracks going a very very long distance
04:23:42 <LordNokon> any suggestions to this problem of mine??
04:24:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to change the first signal to the correct way
04:24:16 <Eddi|zuHause> then it will copy that signal
04:24:35 <LordNokon> oh ok thank you thank you thank you
04:24:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if that is implemented in 0.6.3 already, but you can also try ctrl+drag, it will then copy the signal even along curves
04:25:43 <joachim> WhiteRhino: if it is ai you could perhaps buy the company
04:26:17 <joachim> should ai really build one-way-roads anyway?
04:26:47 <WhiteRhino> No, it's the server's player, clanmega.warlink.eu
04:27:07 <WhiteRhino> And his company is worth 3 billion.
04:27:28 <WhiteRhino> I think buying out the server's company could get me banned anyway. ;)
04:28:04 <WhiteRhino> Damn. 104k (now using dollars) in a single coal train.
04:28:39 <joachim> doesn't really say anything without reference points :)
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04:31:09 <WhiteRhino> Not sure if it went through before I got disconnected, but.. you could always join the map I'm on and take a look. =P
04:37:43 <WhiteRhino> I'm in !Mega's Europe Map Classic 3.
04:41:55 <WhiteRhino> The server I'm playing on, was telling Joachim.
04:51:55 <WhiteRhino> Lost connection to the network again. Perfect opportunity to grab some dinner.
05:03:18 <WhiteRhino> Each time I try to reconnect the network dumps me again and I don't know why.
05:11:58 *** darks_ is now known as darks
05:15:28 <WhiteRhino> ...It keeps doing it. I'll load the map and right as I get control, it kicks me back to the menu.
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05:44:38 <WhiteRhinoPSO> Huh. Well, whatever happened to kick me out of the map each time I reloaded it, now me and the only other actual player's companies are gone.
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07:06:53 <De_Ghosty> where i report bugs again?
07:15:57 <WhiteRhino> Check the wiki? Maybe there's a contact link.
07:20:13 <WhiteRhino> Ooh, Mars graphics instead of Toyland.
07:55:24 <Alberth> De_Ghosty: read the topic
07:56:54 <Alberth> WhiteRhino: I tend to get errors due to rivers with the mars graphics. Do you have them too?
08:00:42 <WhiteRhino> I didn't see any errors for the short time I played. Seems that a train you get in 1950 isn't so good at dragging nine cars of toffee around.
08:01:41 <WhiteRhino> I'm actually trying out a sub-arctic 64x64 map. Working coal, oil and livestock/grain back and forth across a single small town.
08:02:08 <Alberth> WhiteRhino: you'd see the errors in the newgrf window (a red warning triangle).
08:02:17 <WhiteRhino> Ah, no, didn't see any of them.
08:02:20 <Alberth> as for power, add an extra locomotive
08:02:55 <Alberth> and no long slopes :)
08:03:04 <WhiteRhino> Didn't think about that. And while trying to make a very quick alteration to track, my two trains collided and exploded, so I gave up on the 64x2000 map, but I plan to revisit that kind of game.
08:05:04 <Alberth> how does a map of 64 play? I never tried that (but I play very little, I am mostly digging around the in the source code)
08:05:25 <WhiteRhino> It's freakin' tiny. Anything other than cars would be a waste of money.
08:05:36 <WhiteRhino> And even then, I've got ten cars driving around on the map and that's probably too many.
08:05:37 <Alberth> (like now, I first have to build a openTTD binary before I can play :) )
08:06:04 <WhiteRhino> One depot handles recieving grain, livestock and oil, while exporting food and coal. There's long backups.
08:06:33 <WhiteRhino> The good part of 64x64 maps is that once you handle all the possible movement of items, you automatically get any subsidies. =D
08:06:47 <Alberth> depot? (I thought they were for servicing only)
08:07:05 <WhiteRhino> Station thingy. I've got a central depot in the middle of the town.
08:07:24 <Alberth> I normally set subsidies to the lowest possible 1.5 or so, and never bother about them
08:07:51 <Alberth> you know you can have several road stations? as long as they are placed next to each other
08:07:57 <WhiteRhino> Usually I don't either since I can't stand making passenger lines. I did well in that multiplayer game, though, since the towns were big and close together.
08:08:45 <WhiteRhino> Ooh, that opens things up nicely. Thanks, man.
08:09:18 <WhiteRhino> With the subsidy, I'm making 1,700 per truck on wheat, though.
08:11:26 <WhiteRhino> ...A new company was launched.
08:13:30 <WhiteRhino> Geeze. There's two more companies on this tiny island now.. and both of them are using monorails.
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08:14:54 <WhiteRhinoPSO> Grr. Damned connection.
08:15:06 <Alberth> haha! two stations with a single tile of track in between, no doubt
08:16:14 <WhiteRhinoPSO> Well, one guy is using one train and two wagons of coal... sadly making 3k per trip instead of the 5k per year each of my trucks makes.
08:16:36 <WhiteRhinoPSO> Yeah, I make $830 per truck per trip.
08:17:14 <WhiteRhinoPSO> The other computer player has one station and just isn't building any track.
08:20:35 <WhiteRhinoPSO> Hey! His monorail just took out one of my oil trucks!
08:21:07 <Moodles> how do you change the angle of screen?
08:21:20 <Alberth> Moodles: out a book under it
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08:21:40 <Moodles> in openttd, i need to see behind something.. i cant remember how to do it
08:21:58 <WhiteRhino> Make the thing you're trying to see behind transparent? Under the wrench-button on the left.
08:22:59 <Alberth> and there is a 'transparency settings' window available from the tool bar to set your preferences
08:23:28 <WhiteRhino> Startin' to hate the sound of those monorails going by..
08:24:41 <Alberth> I have no sound from OpenTTD since my last 're-install'. It does have some advantages... :)
08:25:18 <WhiteRhino> Given that lots of older games I've been playing don't seem to recongize my sound card, having TTD with sounds is awesome. =P For now. Back in the day I never much dealt with monorails and maglevs.
08:29:13 <WhiteRhino> Meanwhile the terrible movie that is Dr. Dolittle 3 playing in the background is what's truly grating on my nerves.
08:31:05 <WhiteRhino> Hmm. Wonder if I could change all these cars to monorails.. maybe run them all on a bit circular track around the island like a roundabout.
08:33:26 <Alberth> You pretty soon need a double track, so trains can pass a broken-down train, instead of getting stuck behind it
08:33:41 <Alberth> (unless you play with break-downs disabled)
08:34:12 <WhiteRhino> Gah! I moved a station a little and the second computer raced in with her own crap.
08:34:56 <WhiteRhino> Ohhh, this is hopeless. =P Mostly did it as a joke anyway. I'm off to bed, see you folks tomorrow.
09:15:56 <petern> i must have ttdpatch's algorithm wrong :o
09:26:34 <Alberth> I hope it will be, modifying my patch sequence is driving me mad :(
09:28:06 <yorick> you need to fix the settings gui strings truncated and make the tabs go inline too :)
09:30:10 <Alberth> Yesterday a part of the sequence got committed o trunk, and the remaining part needed some changes to make it trunk-ready. So I am making changes in a patch sequence of (currently) 15 patches, moving back and forth. Luckily, hg has mq support
09:31:39 <Alberth> I have a patch for the "fix the settings gui strings truncated" problem, it is called 'CodeRefactor: Windowing code moving towards OO', waiting in FS#1905. Unfortunately, the current patch is too big, and I don't know how to break it up
09:32:34 <yorick> heh, I don't think they like moving the enire windowing code
09:33:16 <Alberth> The move to OO Window objects was largely due to my patches.
09:33:44 <Alberth> Now I need to modify the widgets (ie they need to know how large they become, and re-size themselves).
09:34:39 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
09:35:11 <Alberth> I have a solution for that, but you need a hierarchy of widgets instead of a flat array. That is a very fundamental change.
09:38:18 <Alberth> I see no better solution that to introduce widgets classes, and instantiate a tree of these things, but the class hierarchy code is big, and connecting with the existing way of handling widgets is difficult to impossible as far as i can see
09:39:20 <yorick> the copy paste patch currently needs 9 bits for storing terrain and 4 bytes for buildings :/
09:40:19 <yorick> (terrain and buildings are separate arrays)
09:40:46 <Alberth> you don't copy from map to map directly?
09:41:24 <yorick> that'd be nice when saving and loading
09:42:08 <Alberth> you'd lose ^X, but that is not too bad imho
09:42:47 <yorick> how about moving, but demolishing first?
09:43:12 <Alberth> you paste destructively
09:43:35 <yorick> yes, but building is in multiple levels
09:44:37 <yorick> first terrain, then railway, then signals
09:45:13 <Alberth> but you always have the source tile don't you? (unless you paste at exactly the same place, but that is trivial to solve)
09:46:08 <yorick> operations change neighbouring tiles
09:47:25 <Alberth> are you not further away from the source tiles then?
09:48:10 <yorick> and saveload is needed, yes :)
09:50:20 <Alberth> you could forbid such pastes. If there is enough money, you can always work around that limitation by first pasting it elsewhere.
09:51:37 <Alberth> or maybe the user can do some terraforming him selves beforehand
09:52:05 <yorick> too much limitations :p
09:52:44 <Alberth> to some extent, yeah. On the other hand, it may give you points to break the patch in smaller pieces
10:14:47 <enra> ok - sooo not happy - laptop failed so now i had to reformat and lose my new ottd graphic sets :(
10:15:10 <enra> (yay for the desktop working still)
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10:16:18 * yorick likes the ottd new realistic most
10:16:41 <petern> but that is using floats
10:17:27 <petern> ttdpatch's dependence on mass seems... over the top
10:20:47 <petern> yorick, i had an idea though
10:20:53 <petern> similar to pathfinding
10:21:28 <petern> ttd original / ottd realistic / ttdpatch / ottd-tweaked
10:23:32 <petern> one other thing that could possibly be modelled is jerk
10:24:02 <petern> probably not necessary though :)
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10:30:44 <petern> using ttdpatch's coefficient is not going to work
10:30:56 <petern> because the values for that are tweaked for ttdpatch's 'realistic' acceleration :/
10:32:30 <petern> i missed a line out in ottd's old realistic
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10:35:22 <petern> missed out the 35 * mass * speed / 1000
10:35:39 <petern> which is supposed to be general mechanical resistance
10:35:50 <petern> axle bearings and the like
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10:50:43 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14821 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Change [FS#2390]: make the road grids of town match, when all are using the same road layout ofcourse (cirdan)
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11:11:26 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14822 /trunk/src/ (8 files): -Change: save 'build station' settings in the config file, like drag'n'drop and and show coverage area (Rexxars)
11:15:38 * petern adds on acceleration output
11:15:51 <petern> which does different from effective tractive effort due to rounding
11:16:47 <petern> the jaggies in ttdpatch with a high mass are irrelevant
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11:32:43 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14823 /trunk/src/ (date.cpp date_type.h industry_cmd.cpp): -Document: some variables/structs (Alberth)
11:33:28 <Alberth> a nice surprise, I had forgotten I did that :)
11:37:30 <Rubidium> the benefits of a bugtracker...
11:41:30 <Alberth> Until you have 100+ issues waiting for you ;)
11:41:58 <Rubidium> depends on how you define an issue
11:47:09 <Rubidium> there's only 28 bugs, of which 6 aren't for trunk and another 5 aren't be reproducable (and likely mistaken users)
11:48:12 <Rubidium> and there're less than 100 patches, most of questionable intent/quality
11:48:13 <Alberth> Can disabled NewGRFs make the path finder crash? (follow_track.hpp:108, assertion failed)
11:48:51 <Alberth> ok, that's the most likley cause then.
11:49:39 <Alberth> Indeed, the OpenTTD tracker is nicely small indeed.
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12:07:52 <Alberth> Rubidium: the "prevent industry closure after building a station next to it" patch is of such questionable quality, apparently?
12:08:12 <qball> owh I hate it when that happens
12:08:14 <matias> one question: i've made some bus stops and busses, but they seem to make no revenue
12:08:26 <petern> don't use transfer orders
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12:08:47 <Alberth> allow people to get in the bus
12:09:10 <Alberth> matias: search for feeder service
12:09:17 <Rubidium> Alberth: it conflicts with newindustries
12:09:47 <Alberth> Right, that would qualify as a problem :D
12:10:07 <petern> could you just build random one tile stations to keep industries open, just in case?
12:10:08 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14824 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#1725]: mouse events could be treated twice (illogict)
12:10:11 <Rubidium> then there's the issue "what is recent"?
12:10:32 <matias> hmm.. why does the bus get revenue, but it wont propacate?
12:10:56 <Alberth> there is not much you can do about closing newindustries, I understood
12:11:03 <mrfrenzy> read about transfers in the docs matias...
12:11:26 <Alberth> petern: yes, you could, but it costs money
12:11:56 <Alberth> Rubidium: that's why I made it a constant ;)
12:13:52 <Alberth> petern: I think having an industry announce closure while you are busy putting infra structure in, is much worse
12:14:12 <entropy> anyone knows how i can connect eggdrop with openttd dedic?
12:14:32 <Alberth> but alas, the solution is not good enough currently
12:14:57 <Alberth> entropy: what's an eggdrop?
12:15:29 <Alberth> ah. OpenTTD doesn't speak to IRC bots
12:16:04 <Rubidium> entropy: use autopilot to make an IRC bridge, then eggdrop can talk with OpenTTD via that bridge
12:19:50 <TrueBrain> Yexo: an other problem with 'rays' I had: it is very hard if you only have the points .. you need to make the lines on a 'sandbox' image or what ever to make it fast ... and some regions are WAY too big for that :p
12:21:22 <TrueBrain> (and intersection calculation on 500+ points is terrible slow :p)
12:26:12 <matias> hmm.. how to load and unload passengers at the same time?
12:26:34 <mrfrenzy> just visit the station, no additional load, unload or transfer settings should be enabled
12:27:35 <Swallow> Bug report: The following order list causes the game to freeze as soon as it tries to reserve a path through waypoint X:
12:28:16 <Swallow> Problem seems to be in the lookahead code
12:29:54 <Swallow> VehicleOrderSaver.SwitchToNextOrder doesn't protect itself from infinite loops properly
12:31:26 <Swallow> I'm already making another one :)
12:33:22 <TrueBrain> nobody keeps you from making 2 :p :p
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12:38:05 <qball> has goodger calmed a bit down? or is bitten down on the fact that we where bit ching about his bit error?
12:38:22 <TrueBrain> qball: stop trying to be funny ;) :p
12:38:55 <Yexo> TrueBrain: you don't have to draw the lines to calculate intersections, and it can be done in O(n) with n = number of points
12:39:12 <TrueBrain> Yexo: try to make an algorithm for that, in O(n) ;)
12:39:41 <TrueBrain> all algorithms I found, ar ein O(n^n)
12:39:49 * qball grabs his algorithm design book
12:41:08 <TrueBrain> anyway, even with the sandbox idea I had earlier, I have leaking regions :(
12:47:37 <Yexo> that needs some special casing for horizontal lines, but otherwise it should be fine
12:48:04 <TrueBrain> lines = [line(p0, p1), line(p1, p2), line(p2, p3), ..., line(pn, p0)] (n lines) <- and there is your problem ;)
12:48:26 <Yexo> why? I assume you have the points in order, right?
12:48:55 <TrueBrain> try to put this in C code :)
12:49:56 <Yexo> for (int i = 0; i < n; i++) { lines[i].p1 = points[i]; lines[i].p2 = points[(i + 1) % n]; } <- like that?
12:50:12 <qball> can I quickly ask an offtopic question. I need a way to take over the vista laptop (of my grandma) over the internet. but it must be safe (ssh like + public keys?)
12:50:20 <TrueBrain> oh, you mean that with lines.. fair enough .. now the rest in C :p
12:50:35 <TrueBrain> qball: Windows and SSH .. lol :p
12:50:42 <TrueBrain> (it is possible, just ... :p)
12:50:52 <qball> TrueBrain: well I tried installing a ssh server
12:51:24 <Yexo> TrueBrain: to keep it simple, I'd take y=0 for the crossing line. Calculating intersections is easy, then you just have to sort those
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12:51:54 <TrueBrain> calculating intersections is far from easy :)
12:52:17 <TrueBrain> even more as there are 'ghost' intersections (intersections outside the line)
12:52:54 <TrueBrain> when you test 2 lines on intersection, it always returns a point
12:52:58 <TrueBrain> (unless they are parallel)
12:53:03 <TrueBrain> that point needs to be ON both lines
12:53:08 <TrueBrain> which on itself is hard to check for :)
12:53:23 <Yexo> TrueBrain: it's not, wait a minute
12:54:10 <TrueBrain> several mathbooks disagree with you, so if you can give me a method, it is very welcome :)
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12:55:14 <TrueBrain> calcuate where line(p1,p2) crossing the y=0 line and return that.
12:55:18 <TrueBrain> good luck my friend :)
12:55:44 <TrueBrain> so make me the damn algorithm completely :p
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13:00:35 <TrueBrain> solve d1 and d2 (standard linear algebra problem) <- I love it how you two refuse to give any real code, and take any shortcut possible ;)
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13:01:20 <Alberth> well, you have 2 equations and 2 unknowns. Throw it in any standard math solve package
13:01:39 <TrueBrain> it is not like I can start Maple
13:02:02 <Alberth> and C can make a Maple :P
13:02:16 <qball> you can even run a matlab server where you can connect to and execute scripts on
13:02:57 <TrueBrain> if ((p1.y > 0) == (p1.y > 0)) return NONE; <- I think that always returns
13:03:33 <canidae> evening people. playing around with r14782 i've had some issues with the [difficulty] setting in openttd.cfg. that is, it completely ignores every setting in it and overwrites the values when i quit. running a dedicated server, is it possible to set the values in this section in another way?
13:05:11 <Rubidium> canidae: set the difficulty level to custom instead of something else (which overrides the custom settings)
13:05:50 <TrueBrain> Yexo: if ((p1.y > y) == (p1.y > y)) return NONE; <- still returnng always
13:06:07 <Yexo> TrueBrain: second one should be p2.y of course :p
13:06:35 <TrueBrain> and I guess also a check if both < y
13:07:10 <TrueBrain> Alberth: your algorithm is so unbelievable slow when applied to this problem
13:07:18 <TrueBrain> it took on average 1 minute to calculat ethe center of a region
13:07:43 <Alberth> didn't you yesterday say that time was no problem ? :D
13:07:51 <TrueBrain> Alberth: well, there are limits ;)
13:08:22 <Yexo> TrueBrain: it still needs special cases for (what if one of thepoints already is on the line)
13:08:54 <canidae> Rubidium: excellent! thanks! :)
13:09:50 <Alberth> TrueBrain: you can add bounding boxes checking to eliminate the non-interesting cases
13:10:11 <TrueBrain> Yexo: but in general, your idea might work, as it is a horizontal line intersecting ...
13:10:35 <TrueBrain> I just found out there is yet an other problem ... there are regions, with 2 rings, one in the other
13:10:37 <Yexo> you can easily change the line to whatever you want, but this seemed easiest
13:11:03 <Yexo> that case can't be found with flooding either
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13:11:30 <TrueBrain> and so I noticed :)
13:11:31 <Yexo> but why is that a problem? I assume you have 2 lists of points?
13:11:48 <TrueBrain> for your method, that might just work
13:12:11 <Yexo> for flooding too, if you only mark the land in the first region, then flood the other,and only mark the land again
13:12:44 <TrueBrain> that is what I do now .. hmm ..
13:12:49 <TrueBrain> now I understand why that goes wrong ..
13:13:00 <TrueBrain> the idea of course is that only the area between the two rings is filled
13:13:06 <TrueBrain> but ... there is no true understanding about this
13:13:19 <TrueBrain> so both areas are filled, as ... who says that is not the meaning ;)
13:13:22 <TrueBrain> (catch my problem?)
13:14:12 <Yexo> but I don't think there is a valid way to catch that. What about three rings inside eachother?
13:14:32 <TrueBrain> so ... I need to check each region manually
13:14:40 <TrueBrain> and make an essement based on what I see ...
13:14:57 <Yexo> you only need to check regions were there are multiple sections
13:15:20 <petern> can't you take a line perpendicular to one of the out side vectors then... er... i don't know what next :p
13:15:23 <TrueBrain> ... 60% of the regions ;)
13:15:47 <TrueBrain> wow ... I try to find photoshop .. there are SO MANY versions :s
13:16:01 <Yexo> TrueBrain: it's easy to automatically check if one of the sections is within another section
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13:22:18 <TrueBrain> Yexo: most likely ..
13:22:39 <TrueBrain> but first I am going to apply your idea, see how much regions work out-of-the-box
13:22:47 <TrueBrain> no idea how to check that .. but okay :p
13:23:04 <TrueBrain> my code needs some heavy modifications anyway, to make things a bit more readable
13:23:22 <Yexo> you could compare with the flooding one, and manually look at the differences
13:31:16 <TrueBrain> hmmm ... an other nasty thing ... it seems 2 nearby regions do not always connect
13:31:35 <TrueBrain> because there they did not intersect ... :(
13:31:43 <TrueBrain> more problems than solutions, if you ask me :)
13:32:50 <Yexo> I don't see it,where do you mean?
13:33:11 <TrueBrain> on the border of zuid-holland
13:33:15 <TrueBrain> you see a few pixels blue
13:34:10 <Yexo> below amsterdam, isn't that "Het IJ"?
13:34:25 <TrueBrain> no, that is TOO much blue
13:34:49 <Yexo> you mean all those stray blue pixels?
13:35:35 <TrueBrain> I guess I should eliminate small regions of non-flooded overlays
13:37:51 <SpComb> what evil scheme is TrueBrain cooking up this time?
13:42:27 <Alberth> Trying to flood Holland entirely
13:46:52 <TrueBrain> this btw is where this project stranded last time too
13:47:02 <TrueBrain> because of those stupid borders .... :(
13:59:25 <TrueBrain> bah, I am sick of it ... tnx for your input Yexo and Alberth .. I will look at it again next week or so ..
14:02:02 <Swallow> Some funny overflow stuff happens when you insert more than 255 orders :)
14:15:28 <yorick> why do you want to insert more than 255 orders?
14:31:54 *** Mortal is now known as Guest301
14:32:45 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14825 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix: pay the correct amount of interest instead of a few percent too little a year
14:36:34 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14826 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2494]: infinite loop in order lookahead when reserving a path (Swallow)
14:38:39 <Alberth> it's a serious problem
14:44:00 <matias> i'm new to openttd.. which is the best strategy to start a new game
14:45:10 <Rubidium> start openttd, press "new game", press "generate", et presto... a new game
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14:46:25 <Rubidium> or... generally looking at the manual on the wiki
14:46:48 <matias> i mean how do you begin a game?
14:48:34 <Rubidium> by connecting a pair of industries or a pair of towns
14:49:44 <matias> do you use all your money to a few routes or?
14:50:09 <Alberth> in the beginning yes (ie expand as fast as possible)
14:50:28 <Alberth> later you are going to have a few problems if you try to spend all your money
14:51:00 <matias> how do you know which routes are the most profitable?
14:51:02 <Alberth> (but that is just me, different people play with a different style here)
14:51:12 <matias> and if you should use train/road?
14:51:15 <Alberth> look at cargo payment rates
14:51:41 <Alberth> depends on what you want to do.
14:51:53 <Alberth> if the goal is to get rich, faster transport makes more money
14:52:01 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14827 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Feature [FS#1984]: few (optional) optimisations to making (initial) orders (sulai)
14:52:23 <Alberth> train also carries a lot more
14:53:00 <Alberth> in temperate climate, coal is most profitable early in the game
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14:53:46 <joachim> does anyone have the source for the cargodest + daylength/better timetables/reduced passengers etc. version?
14:53:57 <Alberth> (and later too, but then profitability is not really relevant any more)
14:55:01 <Rubidium> joachim: look in the thread where the binary is released and complain if there's no source there
14:55:25 <joachim> i found it on another forum
14:55:42 <joachim> so, not having high hopes :)
14:55:44 <Alberth> joachim: not likely, combinations of patches are very not-maintainable
14:56:00 <Rubidium> joachim: just demand the source as that's required under GPL
14:58:03 <Alberth> matias: this morning I spoke with WhiteRhino, and he found that trains and a 64x64 map don't go well together.
14:58:31 <Rubidium> Alberth: tss... he just needs to make a little effort
14:59:00 <Alberth> he thougt it was too crowded then.
14:59:43 <Rubidium> okay, that map is 4 times bigger (128x128), but still
15:00:39 <Alberth> Nice! your canal is a bit crowded :)
15:02:04 <yorick> someone needs ship queues :p
15:03:19 <Alberth> Rubidium: how do you get those clusters of industry together? I see them a lot but they never happen in my maps. Do you make a scenario, or do you just buy them later in the game?
15:30:34 <Rubidium> though enabling multiple industries per town will give you industries closer together
15:30:52 <Rubidium> I didn't build any of the oil rigs
15:32:39 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: smatz * r14828 /trunk/ (95 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: move most of save/load-specific code to separate files
15:32:56 <TrueBrain> why an unique name to files?
15:33:02 <TrueBrain> wasn't that a very old MSVC thingy?
15:33:13 <TrueBrain> (in other words: why in dir 'saveload', and postfix with _sl?)
15:33:38 <TrueBrain> as that old MSVC is not supported, it seems a bit ... silly ;)
15:33:41 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: "very old MSVC" means MSVC 2008 and before (and likely after too)
15:33:54 <glx> for msvc bla.cpp and dir/bla.cpp both compile to objs/bla.obj
15:34:00 <TrueBrain> are they insane ...
15:34:06 <TrueBrain> I thought it was a MSVC6 only thing :(
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15:34:30 * FauxFaux has never seen this. :/
15:35:37 <glx> maybe it's possible to have subdirs in objs dir, but I think it needs hand tweaking in vcproj
15:36:21 <glx> and it's easier to ensure there's no duplicate filenames :)
15:37:47 <Alberth> bitmask and colour still a but broken :)
15:39:07 <glx> Alberth: wrong palette for a start :)
15:40:14 <Alberth> glx: No palette would be a better description probably "DrawSprite(SPR_CIRCLE_FOLDED, 0, x, y);"
15:40:35 <Alberth> I have to find out what a good value is instead of 0
15:40:53 <petern> PAL_NONE, but that's 0
15:41:06 <petern> your sprite needs to be corrected, heh
15:41:57 <Alberth> and even execution worked (with a small complaint about corrupt openttdw.grf file)
15:42:52 <Rubidium> Alberth: that "just" requires updating the obg files
15:43:10 <Rubidium> with the appropriate MD5 checksums
15:44:50 <Alberth> Yeah, I suspected something like that. However, for the moment I am already very happy that I actually get something that looks like (+). It proves that the various offsets are all working.
15:45:22 <Rubidium> "if you're happy and you know it clap your hands" ;)
15:46:18 * Eddi|zuHause specificly not claps his hands
15:47:03 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: smatz * r14829 /trunk/src/saveload/ (map_sl.cpp subsidy_sl.cpp): -Fix (r14828): forgot CH_LAST
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15:53:56 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14830 /trunk/src/ (order_cmd.cpp order_type.h): -Fix [FS#2495]: overflow of number of orders per vehicle (based on patch by Swallow)
15:56:10 <Yexo> SmatZ: can you take another look at the freeform edges patch?
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16:05:56 <Eddi|zuHause> european or african Swallow?
16:08:47 <matias> hmm.. how to get distance between 2 points?
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16:09:58 <entropy> have anyone ESB newgrfs?
16:10:00 <matias> in a game, i mean.. is there any way to get a grid on?
16:10:01 <Eddi|zuHause> manhattan distance usually
16:10:37 <matias> Eddi|zuHause: yes, but is there a tool how to get it without guessing?
16:10:43 <Eddi|zuHause> matias: in the query window (?), the coordinates are listed
16:11:03 <glx> isn't there a show distance tootip too ?
16:11:26 <Eddi|zuHause> also, there is a setting where the length of tracks is listed
16:11:42 <glx> somewhere in GUI patches/advanced settings
16:11:42 <Eddi|zuHause> when you drag a rail, road, bridge, etc. tool
16:11:52 <entropy> i installed it, and nothing
16:12:19 <Eddi|zuHause> entropy: you have to add them in the newgrf settings, and then start a new game
16:13:31 <entropy> beta 5 is for nightly?
16:14:47 <matias> ok, length is about 30
16:15:30 <entropy> nightly is full of bugs?
16:16:39 <Alberth> but they tend to be solved the next night :)
16:16:51 <entropy> and i should compile new binaries every night
16:17:50 <matias> £774 to transver 30 oil to the distance of 30..
16:18:35 <Yexo> matias: it also depends on how long the transportation took
16:18:51 <matias> there's no max time for oil
16:20:07 <matias> is 100 units default for the calculations?
16:21:02 <matias> if so, i got ~£86/square for transfering those
16:22:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood those price calculation graphs...
16:22:30 <Eddi|zuHause> what they lack is a histogram of actually delivered cargos
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16:32:36 <matias> what's the normal profit for a train in the beginning of the game?
16:33:20 <petern> how long is a piece of string?
16:33:51 <Eddi|zuHause> |< --- about this --- >|
16:35:24 <mrfrenzy> matias: look at the cargo payment graph
16:35:39 <matias> in practise in your games..?
16:35:40 <mrfrenzy> the profit is dependant on what cargo is delivered, how fast and over how many squares
16:36:50 <matias> should i make a train with min number of wagons or a huge one and wait on the station?
16:37:31 <Eddi|zuHause> usually, you time the wagons in a way that when one train arrives, the other one just gets full
16:37:50 <joachim> is there a grf or other way to adjust running costs?
16:38:08 <joachim> i thought it came with the daylength patch
16:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> basecost.grf or something
16:38:35 <matias> ok, so putting 3 wagons is ok in my case
16:39:04 <joachim> thanks, i'll try that
16:39:10 <petern> it's a balancing skill you will need to learn
16:40:18 <joachim> last time i played with the daylength patch i think there was a cost multiplier option
16:40:20 <matias> how much do you usually earn for the first routes? mine is about £2300
16:46:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i never pay attention to that...
16:46:14 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as it is positive
16:46:37 <Eddi|zuHause> you will eventually get to a point where it does not matter anymore
16:50:12 <joachim> hmm running cost is supposed to be multiplied by the daylength patch
17:06:55 <gynter> where are data files in freebsd7?
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17:42:59 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: smatz * r14831 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt order_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Codechange: use {VEHICLE} instead of Train/Ship/Road veh/Aircraft/{STRING} {COMMA} in lang files (part by Swallow)
17:44:17 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: glx * r14832 /branches/noai/ (173 files in 12 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14761:14827
17:45:03 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: smatz * r14833 /trunk/src/lang/ (49 files in 2 dirs): -Update (r14831): remove changed strings from other languages
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18:04:18 <entropy> wtf where is makefile.unix in nightly build
18:04:37 <Rubidium> why would you expect that?
18:05:19 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14834 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/ (frisian.txt greek.txt hebrew.txt malay.txt persian.txt): -Fix: some strings (in unfinished/) were forgotten when removed/updated
18:06:06 <glx> "./configure && make" should work
18:06:36 <Rubidium> and if it doesn't you're missing important stuff
18:06:53 <entropy> the stable build compiles
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18:06:58 <Rubidium> and nothing can't be the result of ./configure && make
18:07:47 <entropy> i expect that because stable build have makefile.unix :)
18:08:21 <Rubidium> then you're not using the official source package
18:09:46 <Rubidium> entropy: that's 1) not a stable and 2) it has no makefile.unix (like the offical stable sources)
18:10:27 <entropy> stable builds have makefile.unix!
18:10:43 <entropy> and my 0.6.3 server isn't work
18:11:16 <Rubidium> or at least the !*OFFICIAL*! source tarballs DO NOT HAVE a makefile.unix
18:12:24 <entropy> may be there's some other official site
18:12:46 <Rubidium> entropy: and where's makefile.unix in there?
18:19:44 <gynter> why ppl get Could not load savegame while connecting to my server?
18:22:28 <Rubidium> gynter: what version?
18:23:06 <Rubidium> running multiple servers?
18:26:12 <Rubidium> then I've got no clue
18:26:52 <Rubidium> maybe they've got a modified build
18:28:42 <Rubidium> though the could not load should be followed by a second message (IIRC)
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18:34:37 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: smatz * r14835 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Change: apply the 'warn if train's income is negative' setting to other vehicle types, too
18:37:43 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: smatz * r14836 /trunk/src/lang/ (41 files in 2 dirs): -Update (r14835): remove changed string from other languages
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18:39:42 <gynter> dbg: [net] 'Player' reported an error and is closing its connection (could not load map)
18:39:42 <gynter> *** Player has left the game (could not load map)
18:39:42 <gynter> dbg: [net] recv failed with error 54
18:39:42 <gynter> dbg: [net] Closed client connection 5
18:40:25 <Rubidium> could very well be a client with modified binary that failed to load a valid map
18:40:32 <Rubidium> other than that I've got absolutely no clue
18:40:50 <gynter> hm, both server and client are from the same freebsd7 port
18:41:17 <glx> write access on save dir for server or client ?
18:45:17 <Rubidium> that sounds plausible too
18:46:02 <entropy> seems like ./configure doesn't work properly in nightly build
18:47:10 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r14837 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:47:10 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-01-04 18:46:20
18:47:10 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 39 changed by TrueTenacity (39)
18:47:10 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 1 fixed, 13 changed by khaloofah (14)
18:47:11 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: catalan - 10 fixed by arnaullv (10)
18:47:11 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: dutch - 19 fixed, 2 changed by Excel20 (21)
18:47:13 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: finnish - 10 fixed by jpx_ (10)
18:47:36 <glx> entropy: maybe it's your shell
18:48:03 <entropy> it required flag --enable-dedicated
18:48:25 <Rubidium> it did say that, right?
18:48:35 <entropy> on stable build it is automatically
18:49:14 <Rubidium> true, but many many users came and said their binary didn't work when they automagically got a dedicated build
18:49:33 <Rubidium> so now you have to tell you want a dedicated build
18:49:51 <entropy> ever if i don't have sdl :(
18:49:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> entropy: it was decided that people wanting dedicated build are less common than people that miss sdl-devel
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19:05:23 <gynter> when game is restarted by restart_game_year does it load my scenario set by -g on CLI or random map?
19:09:47 <Rubidium> good question, please tell us the answer ;)
19:10:17 <Rubidium> (i.e. try it and tell me what it did as I've got no idea)
19:10:33 <gynter> k, gona tell if game reaches to restart_game_year
19:11:25 <TrueBrain> I want to put some money on a random map
19:11:28 <TrueBrain> where do you put your money Rubidium?
19:16:59 <gynter> whats config variable for allow removal of town roads, bridges etc?
19:17:55 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: smatz * r14838 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/ (serbian.txt thai.txt): -Fix: race condition between me and WT2's translators
19:18:40 <TrueBrain> Osai: are the coop games any good lately?
19:19:49 <Osai> we have an amazing game right now
19:20:42 <Osai> 2,5k trains on a 512x512 map, no newgrfs
19:21:54 <TrueBrain> the serverlist shows a map running for -16 years ....
19:22:41 <Rubidium> 1) create a game, cheat back in time
19:23:19 <Rubidium> well... MP seems to be able to load games that have been cheated back in time
19:23:52 <TrueBrain> it remembers that for year calculation?
19:24:04 <Rubidium> it remembers start_year
19:26:52 <TrueBrain> haha, the coopers are insane .. (well, nothing new there :p)
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19:28:34 <PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn> ah, zuu isnt here today
19:28:49 <PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn> anyone tried installing the ttdpatch onto openttd
19:29:04 <TrueBrain> sounds rather silly
19:29:16 <Rubidium> many tried, noone succeeded (or will succeed)
19:29:21 <PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn> well its supposed to give the extra signal features
19:29:34 <PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn> as all I've got is 1 type of signa;
19:29:41 <TrueBrain> haha, someone has told you a nice lie :)
19:29:53 <Rubidium> PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn: OpenTTD != TTD
19:30:22 <PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn> what am I missing then#
19:30:43 <Rubidium> that TTDPatch is for TTD, not for OpenTTD
19:31:11 <Yexo> as all I've got is 1 type of signa; <- in that case you're not running OpenTTD
19:31:28 <Rubidium> or he hasn't read the manual yet
19:31:38 <PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn> not read the manual.
19:31:51 <PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn> just came across a lot on the web about various types on signals
19:32:08 <PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn> and therefore wondered if there was some way of getting them on my version
19:32:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn: what does your supposed openttd say about its version?
19:32:36 <Yexo> after pressing the signal button, click on an existing signal to change it to another type
19:32:59 <PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn> its open ttd 0.6.3
19:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn: that does not need a patch to have several signal types
19:34:33 <PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn> had seen stuff about clicking the signal tile,
19:34:41 <PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn> but had assumed that was in the build manager
19:35:06 <Yexo> what is "the build manager"?
19:35:57 <PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn> I assume thats the best way to describe the box that comes up when you click on the rail simble to build stuff
19:36:21 <PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn> or what the wiki here has down as Railway construction toolbar
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20:01:57 * Prof_Frink goes back to work on thrust_ssc.grf
20:03:03 <petern> well, max speed is now 318 instead of 79
20:03:04 <Prof_Frink> Although that's not really an *R*V, is it?
20:03:58 <petern> hmm, airdrag * 2 in tunnels, i suppose
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20:13:40 <petern> hmm, now curve and hill penalties...
20:15:05 <Swallow> what values are you going to use for those?
20:16:02 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
20:16:22 <Eddi|zuHause> what i wish for is a statically calculatable grade and radius calculation
20:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. one that is not dependent on train length and train position
20:16:40 *** glx|away is now known as glx
20:17:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and as a bonus, a less abrupt slowdown :p
20:22:34 <Eddi|zuHause> # Ich trink mir einen, steig ins Auto, trete voll aufs Gas
20:22:44 <Eddi|zuHause> # Enten jagen macht besoffen doppelt so viel Spaß
20:22:51 <Swallow> according to some source, one degree of curvature is equal to a grade of around 0.04%
20:23:41 <Eddi|zuHause> # Ich werde wach. Vor meinem Bett steht ein alter Mann
20:24:07 <Eddi|zuHause> # Und sagt: 'Sie hatten einen Unfall.", und grinst mich blöde an
20:25:11 <petern> Eddi|zuHause, come up with a good algorithm for it
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20:36:30 <SmatZ> petern: have I broken something?
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20:37:25 <petern> you didn't change train_income_warn to vehicle_income_warn in settings_gui.cpp
20:37:55 <entropy> how can i adjust server version?
20:38:04 <petern> you use a different version
20:38:35 <entropy> i use r14837 dedicated server and r14837 client
20:38:49 <entropy> and they don't connect
20:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause> entropy: then they are _not_ the same version
20:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you made modifications
20:40:24 <Yexo> maybe configure couldn't find the revision for one of the builds
20:41:47 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: smatz * r14839 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2496](r14835): one occurence of train_income_warn wasn't updated
20:42:18 <entropy> Server version: norev000
20:42:45 <Yexo> start using svn so version autodetecting works
20:43:13 <Yexo> you could also force a particular revision by using ./configure --revision=r14837
20:46:15 <petern> heh, overtaking road vehicles look stupid
20:47:04 <wonea> hehe, would be cool if a little puff of smoke came out of the back of the overtaking vehicle
20:47:39 <gynter> you should add a rent-a-land, for eq, if you buy a land then rent it to an opponent asking certain percent of income from all vechiles which will use a station on rented land as source or destination
20:48:51 <Eddi|zuHause> gynter: there's a patch for that in the forum, called "infrastructure sharing"
20:49:00 <petern> RVs do actually just stop and start mid overtake sometimes :o
20:49:21 <petern> heh, even without new acceleration the RVs still go faster,
20:50:20 <wonea> RV, is that an American term ?\
20:51:00 <entropy> lol there's missing sprite in r14837
20:51:07 <entropy> all industries are pink
20:51:16 <petern> lol you're mixing dos and windows grs
20:51:57 <Yexo> entropy: try opening the newgrf window and switch the pallete for those grfs
20:54:12 <George> Yexo: Does DOS->WIN converting works fine? There are 6 colours in DOS which are not represented in WIN (That's why I do my GRFs in WIN and than create DOS versions)
20:54:42 <entropy> your GRFs are very cool :) thank you
20:56:13 <Yexo> entropy: and your original grfs (trg*.grf)?
21:01:15 <tosse> hi, just wonder, is it possible to remove towns?
21:01:31 <Yexo> tosse: only in the scenerio editor
21:02:29 <tosse> is there any other way to generate a map say 512x512 with very few (5 or so) towns?
21:02:53 <Yexo> open the scenario editor, create a random landscape, add a few towns yourself and generate some industries
21:03:14 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: glx * r14840 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: remove duplicate includes
21:12:54 <tosse> Yexo: ok, thank, i will play with it :)
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21:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause> tosse: make a town name grf with only 5 names
21:26:40 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, that is a beginners solution :)
21:26:47 <TrueBrain> hack the game and make the value '5' :p
21:27:07 <Sacro> THEY'RE TRASHING OUR RIGHTS, TRASHING
21:27:11 <Eddi|zuHause> hey... it is not THAT complicated :p
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21:56:32 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: glx * r14841 /branches/noai/ (160 files in 10 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14827:14840
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21:58:40 <Yexo> Rubidium: about the freeform map edges patch. The curernt version uses void tiles at the north borders, but it could be simplified a lot by removing those tiles again and making GetTileType() return MP_VOID for tiles > MapSize(). What do you think about that?
22:00:20 * SmatZ doesn't know if it is unsafe, but is a bit sad because of that tile == 0 --> tile == INVALID_TILE work done recently :)
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22:37:09 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: glx * r14842 /branches/noai/src/saveload/afterload.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix (r14841): of course there's a little error
22:38:48 <Rubidium> Yexo: the major problem I have is that it puts a (quite) unneeded if statement in a (I think) hot path
22:39:40 <Rubidium> and it'll undoubtedly cause a long series of bugs when people actually start testing the feature and reporting bugs
22:39:41 <Yexo> well, as I said the current patch adds mp_void tiles and as such that if isn't there anymore, but SmatZ asked why that was, and I wasn't sure about your reason :)
22:40:05 <Yexo> and it'll undoubtedly cause a long series of bugs <- the patch of that if statement?
22:41:20 <Rubidium> or rather together it will
22:41:38 <Yexo> does that mean you don't want to include the patch (without that hack) or that is just needs lots of testing beforehand?
22:42:08 <petern> everything needs testing
22:42:13 <Rubidium> the first fear can be removed if someone does a proper profiling, which is quite hard
22:42:13 <petern> especially smatz's commits ;)
22:42:31 <petern> hmm, can road vehicles have multiple powered parts?
22:43:13 <SmatZ> today wasn't my lucky day
22:43:34 <Rubidium> and the bugs thing is both lots of testing, reviewing and a long stabilisation period in trunk
22:44:17 <Rubidium> which brings me to the question... when to branch 0.7?
22:45:12 <Yexo> the first I can do (hopefully with a little help from openttdcoop, dihedral already offered to set up the dev server with the patch). reviewing should be done by someone else (smatz already did it for an older version), and the last point is only possible after inclusion
22:45:57 <petern> when was 0.6 branched? heh
22:47:16 <Rubidium> @openttd commit 12395
22:47:16 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Commit by rubidium :: r12395 branches/0.6/ (2008-03-22 19:48:14 UTC)
22:47:17 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: [0.6] -Branch: the long awaited branch so we can introduce new features in trunk before 0.6.0, but not let them destabalize the pending release :)
22:47:37 <petern> give it another couple of months then :)
22:48:49 <Rubidium> petern: AFAIK no big things had been committed to trunk since January
22:49:21 <Rubidium> and the fact that it happened "only" late March was because nobody dared to do it when I was on vacation (for 2 months)
22:50:00 <Rubidium> hmm... the betas started mid November
22:50:12 <Yexo> branching now would mean that both cargodest and noai wouldn't make it
22:50:46 <Yexo> Rubidium: speaking of noai, any plans to resume work on nail?
22:50:46 <Rubidium> I don't see Celestar finishing cargodest "soon" anyways
22:51:26 <Rubidium> Yexo: when I've got a lot of time again, which is after my thesis
22:51:37 <Rubidium> which is well... far far in the future
22:53:53 <Yexo> ok, I was just curious. It's too bad that it means noai won't make it either for 0.7
22:57:17 <Rubidium> Yexo: yes, but... I don't have an infinite amount of time and I'm not the only person capable of writting a VM
22:58:02 <Yexo> Rubidium: I don't blame you for not having enough time :) I know you're already spending a lot oftime improving openttd
22:58:16 *** genclay is now known as Yeggzzz
22:58:51 <Rubidium> and the longer I'm working on it, the more feasible it becomes to "just" use an existing (well supported) scripting language and remove/change the few things from the API that are more developer friendly, but impossible with the default implementation
22:58:56 <Yexo> but TrueBrain said he couldn't continue and I don't see anyone else stepping in
23:00:15 <TrueBrain> did I say that? Cool :)
23:00:34 <Rubidium> s/feasible/appealing/
23:00:59 <Yexo> TrueBrain: when I asked you about the status a few weeks back, you said you were waiting for Rubidium to continue
23:01:14 <TrueBrain> Yexo: that doesn't say I can't continue, does it? :p
23:02:23 <TrueBrain> it just means I need to read up in the VM :(
23:02:29 <Yexo> not exactly, but since you didn't do anyting on nail either, I kindof assumed that you didn't want to continue
23:02:41 <TrueBrain> ;) I was waiting for Rubidium to continue or not :)
23:02:48 <TrueBrain> and this week he told me he won't for the next N weeks :)
23:03:17 <TrueBrain> and if you have time again to help out ..... ;) :p
23:03:22 <Yexo> at least this gives a clear status :)
23:03:49 <Yexo> I'd like to help out, but I haven't done anything related to nail yet, so I'd have to read up more then you do :p
23:04:05 <TrueBrain> lets take it to the correct channel ;)
23:05:17 <Aali> why did you decide to implement your own scripting language anyways?
23:05:46 <TrueBrain> because the ones available suck :)
23:06:05 <TrueBrain> Squirrel doesn't provide us with the scoping level we require
23:06:51 <Aali> yeah, squirrel is not ideal, no argument there
23:07:28 <TrueBrain> and alternatives there aren't really
23:08:11 <Aali> so what are you going for with NAIL? is there a wiki page or something?
23:09:44 <Aali> cargodest is really out of sync with latest trunk :/
23:12:21 <Rubidium> Aali: we basically had a name the scripting language contest and burned everything down on at least one important point
23:16:15 <petern> squirrel seemed to be going so well
23:16:21 <Rubidium> IIRC it doesn't allow us to easily hook at "variable goes out of scope"
23:16:25 <TrueBrain> petern: it never did :)
23:16:26 <petern> so what of the ais that had already been written...
23:16:40 <Rubidium> squirrel fails to do scoping when it's important
23:17:13 <Yexo> <TrueBrain> NAIL is compatible <- not completely, I guess a lot of the existing AIs will fail on small points (like missing a ';')
23:17:33 <TrueBrain> but that is a minor problem :)
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23:33:00 <petern> whatever happened to libgpmi? :p
23:33:54 <TrueBrain> just not in OpenTTD
23:33:56 <TrueBrain> Tron made sure of that :)
23:35:36 <Sacro> God, what happened to him
23:36:10 <Rubidium> he's changing SimuTrans to have his coding style
23:36:32 <Sacro> he's off patrolling someone else's project
23:36:39 <petern> simutrans style was horrible when i looked :p
23:36:43 <TrueBrain> it still gives me the creeps, just thinking about that :)
23:36:48 <TrueBrain> I never seen the code of simutrans ..
23:38:06 <petern> heh, r3313... 3 years ago... wow
23:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> > grep "Vehicle\*" src/* | wc -l
23:38:18 <Rubidium> svn://tron.something.I.cannot.remember/
23:38:27 <Rubidium> ^ that's where simutrans' code is
23:38:34 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: it used to be a lot more :)
23:39:21 <Rubidium> and quite a few of them are casts anyways
23:39:40 <Eddi|zuHause> static int CDECL VehicleLengthSorter(const Vehicle* const *a, const Vehicle* const *b) <- i don't even know what is const there
23:40:11 <Rubidium> hmm or actually **a is
23:45:22 <TrueBrain> I always found 'const' usage silly and confusing :p
23:47:41 <SmatZ> I think it could even be "const Vehicle *const *const a", because 'a' isn't changed :)
23:48:09 <TrueBrain> hahaha, over-constantified :p
23:48:41 <petern> somebody had a habit a while ago of consting by-value parameters
23:49:23 <TrueBrain> before you know it, you change a by-value :)
23:49:26 <Rubidium> technically a compiler might do interesting optimisations of that
23:50:30 <SmatZ> but "restrict" is much better keyword for enabling optimisations :)
23:50:48 <SmatZ> it says "no other pointer points to this data" (or so)
23:51:02 <SmatZ> but it is only in C99, not C++ :(
23:51:17 <Rubidium> oh... so it won't work anyways (for MSVC)
23:55:28 <matias> hmm.. does it matter how close you are to the industry? produced 126t, transported 78%
23:55:40 <petern> monorail is not possible
23:56:04 <Eddi|zuHause> matias: no, only the station rating matters
23:56:07 <Aali> you saw that thread too?
23:56:41 <matias> ok, so when the ratio is 78%, you can transport 78%?
23:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's the internet, everybody is some kind of expert on everything
23:57:13 <Eddi|zuHause> matias: yes, the average station rating over the month
23:57:50 <Eddi|zuHause> with some weird mix of ratings if there are two stations
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