IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-12-27
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02:05:37 <flexd> Is it possible to change the speeds of vehicles in a multiplayer game? I read abit about TTDAlter, but that seems to be old?
02:06:16 <flexd> Also, is there a general pack of some kind with abit newer graphics (newgrfs), there's just so many to choose from. I was hoping someone had a pack of sorts they could recommend :)
02:07:51 <Nite_Owl> TTDAlter does not work in OpenTTD
02:08:04 <flexd> That was the conclusion i came to
02:08:47 <Nite_Owl> go there for a grf pack
02:08:49 <flexd> I've actually downloaded that
02:09:00 <flexd> But there's so much different stuff that can be enabled.
02:09:25 <Nite_Owl> or search there for individual grfs
02:10:05 <flexd> Hmm nice, now i can atleast see what many of these different ones do :)
02:11:12 <Nite_Owl> also search the graphic forums for even more in depth info
02:11:28 <flexd> is there a way to change the speeds of the vehicles? Or do grf's just change looks on trains?
02:11:52 <flexd> Is there a way to edit grfs?
02:12:13 <flexd> I could just grab some random nice looking grf and change the speed?
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02:12:33 <Nite_Owl> yes - but it involves a somewhat complex programming language
02:13:15 <flexd> Aslong as it's not worse than C i think i can manage :)
02:13:58 <Nite_Owl> Then take a look at the wiki. it is all there
02:14:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the language itself is actually very simple
02:14:50 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as you can think in hexadecimal :p
02:15:44 <flexd> it shouldnt be that bad
02:15:56 <flexd> Would this go under development or graphics ?
02:16:58 <flexd> That isnt a yes/no question :/
02:18:02 <Eddi|zuHause> surely it is. other questions would start with a question word like "who", "why" or "where"
02:19:17 <flexd> Would this go under development or graphics?
02:19:33 <flexd> Or another way of saying this, Would this go under development or will it go under graphics?
02:19:41 <flexd> That is not a yes/no question..
02:19:46 <flexd> But thanks, i found it anyway.
02:19:55 <Nite_Owl> on the forum look under graphics
02:21:53 <Eddi|zuHause> which syntactical or semantical part of this question do you think qualifies this question as a non-yes/no-question?
02:22:19 <flexd> You can answer either development, graphics or <whatever location>
02:22:43 <flexd> the question contains the two possible choices
02:23:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and the boolean operator "or" evaluates to "true" if either operand is true
02:23:42 <flexd> It's the English language.
02:23:48 <flexd> Not a programming language.
02:24:20 <Eddi|zuHause> English is a programming language
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02:30:55 <Nite_Owl> Frack - that is the first BSoD I have had in years
02:33:13 <flexd> I read ruby like it's english
02:33:23 <flexd> but that doesnt make it english for someone that doesnt code ruby :)
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10:17:27 <George> Devs: What are future plans to allow AI to use pass through stations?
10:18:08 <George> When would NOAI go to the trunk?
10:19:09 <George> I know. Thats why I wrote "PLAN". Do you plan to finish it in a year, two or several months?
10:19:32 <dihedral> you have NAIL and noai!
10:19:43 <dihedral> both needs finishing, one will not be finished without the other
10:20:53 <Rubidium> the initial plan was to get it to trunk before 0.6...
10:21:41 <dihedral> did it start that early?
10:23:06 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Commit by truelight :: r9138 branches/noai/ (2007-03-13 12:21:13 UTC)
10:23:07 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: [NoAI] -Branch: created a branch for a new idea how to handle AIs
10:23:26 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Commit by rubidium :: r12395 branches/0.6/ (2008-03-22 19:48:14 UTC)
10:23:27 <dihedral> that was earlier than i though
10:23:27 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: [0.6] -Branch: the long awaited branch so we can introduce new features in trunk before 0.6.0, but not let them destabalize the pending release :)
10:23:59 <Rubidium> quick math shows more than 375 days
10:32:57 <dihedral> how would i best / cleanest call a function after max_companies, or max_spactators was changed?
10:33:09 <dihedral> would i use the PROC setting in the macro?
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10:47:22 <Rubidium> that's probably the best... but... it won't be called when loading the config file
10:49:07 <dihedral> i send the values to the client that just joined, and then update if those values should change during a gaime
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11:34:05 <George> can a trunk and NoAI be located in one folder and share configs?
11:36:05 <Rubidium> they can't be in the same folder, but they can share their openttd.cfg
11:36:42 <Rubidium> as long as openttd.cfg is in the "personal directory" as per section 4.2 of readme.txt
11:36:50 <George> Rubidium: how can I specify that NoAI sould use GRFs and Config fron trunk directory?
11:37:17 <Rubidium> then your NewGRFs and original TTD grfs should be in a folder called data in the same personal directory
11:38:50 <George> can I somehow say OTTD that my personal folder located somewhere else, like f:\games\OTTD-data-files
11:39:16 <Eddi|zuHause> only by recompiling yourself
11:39:22 <Rubidium> if you compile yourself yes, otherwise no
11:39:59 <Rubidium> unless f:\games\OTTD-data-files is set as working directory
11:41:21 <George> Rubidium: but than it should be the same folder for trunk and noai, and said it is not allowed
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11:42:10 <George> Then, can I place a personal cfg for trunk and NoAI, and specify general datafolder there?
11:42:20 <Eddi|zuHause> location of the executable != working directory
11:42:41 <George> Eddi|zuHause: And what is it?
11:43:55 <George> So, how to place trunk in f:\games\OTTD, NoAI i f:\games\OTTD-NoAI and data folder in f:\games\OTTD-data-files?
11:44:23 <Eddi|zuHause> if you make a shortcut link on your desktop, there is one line for "command", there you can put "F:\games\nigtly\openttd.exe", and then there is a line for working directory, there you can put "F:\games\shared" [must contain a "data" directory)
11:45:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but imho it would be easier to just put the data files into "My Documents\Openttd"
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12:07:43 <flexd> Is there a easy way of fetching nightly builds?
12:08:16 <flexd> Well, except doing it manually (which is fairly easy) i mean
12:08:28 <flexd> I run Windows Vista on this, ubuntu on my other machine
12:08:29 <Rubidium> but for almost each OS there is an easy way
12:08:56 <Rubidium> for vista you could use the autoupdater (somewhere on the forum)
12:09:16 <Rubidium> for ubuntu you can make a simple script to download the latest nightly and untar it automagically
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12:10:59 <dihedral> there is also an auto update bash script
12:12:22 <Wolf01> oh nice, just to remain in topic, I want to shut down (complete power off, not standby) automatically the pc when not used for 45-60 minutes, I have Ubuntu 8.10
12:16:33 <Gekz> Wolf01: why the hell would you want to do that
12:16:59 <Gekz> set the computer to suspend in your power manager in 45 minutes
12:17:06 <Gekz> then change the /etc/acpi/scripts/suspend.sh
12:17:48 <Wolf01> (my sister always forget the pc running)
12:18:03 <Gekz> why dont you just ssh in and turn it off then?
12:18:35 <Wolf01> because I don't know when it is used or not
12:22:27 <Rubidium> probably way to complex though
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12:43:38 <mortal> Rubidium, I don't see why you wouldn't let the clients shut themselves down? rather than the added complexity of server-client communication and authentication challenge and what have we
12:44:29 <mortal> it's a cool setup and all... and after reading just another half screen up I see this is pretty much what gekz said. oh well
12:46:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "As of this point in time, my sprites are public domain, feel free to use as you see fit, all I ask in return is credit for the original artwork " <- could it be that this phrase is total rubbish?
12:46:21 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes.
12:46:28 <planetmaker> good morning all :)
12:46:41 <mortal> eddi, if you declare your sprites to be truly PD in your legislation, you can't enforce your wish for credit...
12:46:52 <mortal> no not legislation uhh
12:47:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean aside of the questional fact of "releasing" something into the "public domain", if you do, you cannot ask for anything in return, not even credit
12:47:28 <Gekz> I dont think he's saying you have to
12:47:32 <Gekz> he's just saying "Be nice, credit me"
12:47:42 <Gekz> you dont have to follow his orders.
12:47:57 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it's like "don't spend all at once"...
12:48:05 <Gekz> you dont have to listen to that either
12:48:14 <Gekz> he's just saying he'd appreciate credit where it is due
12:48:34 <Gekz> "Thanks joe for your fucking awesome sprites, you make sex seem boring!"
12:48:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but "public domain" means "due == null"
12:49:55 <Gekz> he doesnt say you MUST credit him
12:50:13 <Gekz> you're picking at air here
12:50:40 <Eddi|zuHause> legally, that is the same thing
12:50:49 <Gekz> legally you have no case to be honest
12:50:57 <Gekz> he said it's public domain
12:51:03 <Gekz> thus you dont have to listen to what he says anywhere else
12:51:44 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and i said the phrase is nonsense
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12:52:05 <Gekz> it's a human thing to do
12:52:22 <Gekz> let me loop exactly what I said: he wants recognition, he does not demand it
12:52:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but then he chose the wrong kind of license
12:52:46 <planetmaker> GekZ: but then a CC-BY is the license of your choice. Do what you want, but give credit
12:52:50 <Gekz> public domain _isnt_ a license
12:53:00 <Gekz> planetmaker: he doesnt say you have to
12:53:03 <planetmaker> Gekz: it is... in US
12:53:04 <Gekz> CC-BY is a demand to give credit
12:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause> you can not give up your right to recognition and then ask for it back...
12:53:12 <Gekz> public domain is the lack of copyright
12:53:15 <Wolf01> gah, I have to find out a more simple password, "password" is too long to type
12:53:36 <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause: doesnt matter if it's public domain, it's obvious who made it
12:53:43 <Gekz> they just dont have any legal control over it anymore
12:53:50 <Gekz> they're still the creator
12:55:51 <Yorick> if (!(flags & DC_EXEC)) return CMD_ERROR; <-- could these things be commented in the future so that it is more clear that it effectively does the same as return()?
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13:02:23 <Wolf01> do you know if there might be problems running the same installation of OTTD in network?
13:03:33 <RockerTimmy> I'm trying to implement programmable signals. I made a struct which contains the rules, but how can I find a struct with only a TileIndex? Or better, where in the landscape can I store a pointer to it?
13:03:38 <Aali> shouldn't be a problem as long as you dont join with two clients at the same time
13:03:40 <Eddi|zuHause> running two instances from the same directory may cause problems with the temporary savegame
13:03:49 <Yorick> RockerTimmy: try m2 ;)
13:04:10 <Yorick> if it's not used already
13:04:22 <Yorick> docs/landscape*.html ;)
13:04:23 <Wolf01> also with the .cfg placed in the user folder?
13:04:52 <RockerTimmy> The docs say that a railpiece with signals use 3/4 of m2
13:06:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you need a pointer into the memory pool
13:06:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. a poolindex must be saved
13:07:10 <Yorick> but he can only have 255 pool items with m7
13:07:16 <Eddi|zuHause> or you make a lookuptable
13:07:31 <Eddi|zuHause> then you don't have to store the index in the map
13:08:03 <RockerTimmy> it needs to be accessed every time signals are checked
13:08:22 <Yorick> you can get 4 bits out of m6, and 4 bits out of m2, and 8 bits out of m7, is that enough?
13:09:20 <RockerTimmy> that should be enough for the average game :P
13:09:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say go for the easy variant with the 8 bits, adding or reshuffling bits can be done later
13:09:47 <Eddi|zuHause> be sure to create a map accessor function
13:09:53 <Yorick> what if there are more rulesets per signal?
13:10:20 <RockerTimmy> more rulesets per signal, is that useful?
13:10:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and imho there is more to it than just modifying signal states... you need to influence pathfinder decisions, too. especially with path signals
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13:11:11 <dihedral> i spy with my little eye something beginning with 'Y'
13:11:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "eye" does not rhyme with "ypsilon"
13:12:01 <Yorick> and I spy with my little eye something beginning with 'dih' :)
13:14:01 <dihedral> Yorick, when was the last time someone told you, you were annoying!
13:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> before all people that bothered put him on /ignore
13:15:17 <Yorick> dihedral: I don't see how I can be annoying just now and you can't
13:16:25 <dihedral> Yorick, i can understand it!
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13:26:10 <dihedral> nobody shouted silly, soppy looking boy
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17:27:00 <edeca> Before I go to the effort of trying, can anybody tell me if the copy&paste patch works with current head?
17:28:03 <dihedral> depends how much work you invest
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17:28:35 <edeca> So it doesn't apply cleanly?
17:28:56 <dihedral> i dont know what the last patch revision is
17:30:30 <edeca> Hm, a few failures and a few that apply at offsets
17:30:56 <dihedral> you would need to do a bit, yes
17:31:42 <edeca> Damn. It's not going to get included in trunk anyway apparently, as it is poorly coded. Pants :)
17:32:04 <edeca> I don't have much time to make it patch if it's never going to be included in trunk
17:34:02 <dihedral> what was the reason for it never getting included?
17:34:13 <dihedral> poorly coded (+ still 15 todo's open)
17:34:22 <dihedral> so what would you have to do?
17:34:33 <dihedral> code it cleanly + get rid of the todo list
17:35:06 <dihedral> well - you have something to base your work on ;-)
17:37:29 <dihedral> nobody would promise it would get included, but the chances would be a bunch higher ;-)
17:38:02 <edeca> Hrm, only 179 lines of patch that get rejected out of 3722
17:38:07 <edeca> Perhaps I'll try later tonight after dinner
17:38:22 <edeca> Then maybe if I have time I could look to improve some of the code, but I really doubt I'll get time :(
17:39:49 <dihedral> you will need a bit more than just reworking the rejected lines
17:39:59 <dihedral> a bit of the network stuff has changed
17:40:06 <dihedral> but you'd soon get the hang of it
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17:42:24 <Eddi|zuHause> why would copy&paste have anything to do with network?
17:43:05 <Eddi|zuHause> let me rephrase that: if it has, it really is poorly coded
17:43:54 <dihedral> i was thinking of another patch :-P
17:44:13 <dihedral> then it's gonna be less work :-P
18:24:40 <Eddi|zuHause> @openttd commit 11462
18:24:40 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r11462 /tags/0.6.0-beta1 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2007-11-18 15:14:53 UTC)
18:24:41 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Release: 0.6.0-beta1.
18:24:42 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: The first major step into the road of releasing 0.6.0, which will give you loads of new features, like newhouses, newindustries, signals and diagonal tracks under bridges, trams, autoslope, oneway roads, half tile slopes and much more. It furthermore contains quite a few performance improvements under certain conditions as well as a very long list of bugreports. If you are really interested, you should (1 more message)
18:24:43 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: We OpenTTD developers hope that you will thoroughly test it so we can quickly release the real 0.6.0.
18:24:44 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Have fun!
18:25:08 <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't it be time for 0.7.0-betas?
18:25:21 <Eddi|zuHause> clearly, that one was more than 12 months ago
18:56:35 <Aali> NoAI and cargodest are in the 0.7 roadmap, and they're not in trunk yet
19:03:22 <Aali> and without those, the only BIG thing in that release would be YAPP, which IMO is not enough
19:07:45 <dihedral> Aali: who said 0.7 is close to release?
19:16:22 <Aali> dihedral: are you /ignore'ing Eddi|zuHause at the moment?
19:17:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there were several big things that were merged after 0.6.0-beta1, too
19:21:10 <Aali> ok, next guess, there are no new big features just waiting to be implemented after 0.7, so there's no point in creating a separate branch
19:24:10 <Eddi|zuHause> betas have nothing to do with branching
19:24:18 <Eddi|zuHause> branching is done for RC1
19:24:45 <Eddi|zuHause> betas are a glorified nightly, to get more people testing them
19:25:18 <petern> next release will be 0.6.3.1
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20:19:35 <Swallow> Why is the DepotID not saved in the map array, like e.g. the WaypointID?
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22:36:21 <George> Why do towns disallow new helipad with the same conditions as large aiport? I think it would be nice not to take helipads into account when ciunting amount of airports in the town and allow to build more helipads.
22:39:53 <Progman> its called airport noise
22:47:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it's in the advanced settings
22:52:18 <Aali> i think the point was that a heliport shouldn't be treated as a large airport because it does not generate that much noise (and its not that big, either)
22:54:12 <dihedral> but should bump the noise level - no matter how little
22:54:43 <dihedral> but if the noise level control is off, perhaps he means that it should not count as an airport then
23:01:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: that is the point, yes. but that is also exactly what the setting does
23:03:49 <Aali> I just assumed he knew about that option and didn't want to play with it on
23:03:56 <Aali> (because thats not the only thing it does)
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23:45:57 <George> Noise controll is off, but I can't build helipads if I can't build airport. My question is - shouldn't helipads be NOT taken into account?
23:49:44 <Eddi|zuHause> like already said, turn the setting on if you want more helipads
23:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no sensible function that can determine if an "aircraft station" counts as a big airport or a tiny heliport, especially if you want to extend that to newgrf ports. that is why the noise levels got introduced
23:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the old way is very unlikely to be changed
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