IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-12-28
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02:38:57 <nicfer> Hm, a campaign mode for openttd would be cool
02:40:16 * mincepie buries head in hands
02:44:36 <nicfer> Or maybe a war mod for ottd: transport missiles to launch sites to destroy the enemy and win the game
02:53:37 <Eddi|zuHause> there is definitely never going to be a "war mod"
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03:15:48 <nicfer> How many meters form a TD tile?
03:17:08 <mincepie> 50, possibly. I consider it difficult to tell
03:20:11 <Eddi|zuHause> depending on which aspect of the game you consider, something between 25m and 5km
03:21:28 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes even outside this range
03:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g if you take the width of a rail as base, a tile is like 5m wide
03:22:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if you take the length of a passenger wagon as base, a tile is 50m long
03:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause> if you take the length of a modern runway as base, a tile is like 500m long
03:24:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you take the distance of cities as base, a tile is like 5km long
03:26:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you can put a world map on 2048x2048, or a map of the netherlands, and both would be "in TTD scale"
03:28:38 <mincepie> this means that trains often have 200m gaps between stops.
03:28:38 <mincepie> or the passenger carriages are a few miles long, on another scale...
03:28:40 <mincepie> for which someone must eventually be made to pay ¬.¬
03:30:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i would really like to have passenger wagons which are 50% or 100% longer
03:30:48 <Eddi|zuHause> a BR 01 + Tender should not be longer than a passenger wagon
03:31:26 <Eddi|zuHause> ideally, a wagon should be two vehicles with a special "do not bend here" flag set
03:31:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so it could be forced to stay together in curves, but split apart in tunnel entrances
03:32:08 <Eddi|zuHause> to avoid graphical glitches
03:32:25 <nicfer> Would be cool for big grids that the holes get automaticly filled with houses
03:34:29 <mincepie> the British Housing Developer mod will fix that
03:37:19 <mincepie> if gap_exists(): build_shitty_housing_development(gap); name_shitty_housing_development(local_name,'Meadows');
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08:59:02 <George> Eddi|zuHause: Thank you for help. I was confused with the switch name. Why noise controll switced on allows helipads and of - disallows? It was impossible to uderstand :(
09:02:51 <dihedral> George, actually not, because helipads make less noise than a huge airport, and the town just makes sure that less than a max noise level is reached
09:03:13 <dihedral> or that one stays below a max level
09:03:27 <dihedral> makes perfect sense to me :-P
09:03:48 <George> what are values of noise for all the airports? And what valuse do toewns allow?
09:04:29 <dihedral> now that is a good question
09:07:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the allowed value is displayed in the town window
09:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it changes with population
09:07:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and it changes with distance
09:08:33 <George> dihedral: for me the switch name should sound like "Control airport size by towns" or something like that. It was not understanable that noise means size of the airport
09:08:46 <George> Eddi|zuHause: How to make town to display it?
09:09:13 <dihedral> no - because i think the noise level for each town is relative to the towns size
09:09:19 <dihedral> it's not like one level for all towns
09:09:43 <dihedral> and i believe it will tell you in the town info window
09:10:05 <George> I mean noise 5 of 3 max - what does it mean?
09:11:03 <dihedral> and in the 'build airport' window you see what noise level the airport will 'add'
09:11:28 <dihedral> "Noise limit in town: 0 max: 12"
09:11:46 <dihedral> i can add airports until it sais 12 of 12
09:12:04 <George> and if it says 5 of 3 - what does it mean?
09:12:11 <dihedral> or until i cannot find an airport with such a low noise generation that would fit the difference
09:12:26 <dihedral> then you enabled the noise level after building an airport
09:12:36 <dihedral> and cannot add new airports
09:13:06 <George> I see. Good thing. I need this switch :)
09:13:58 <dihedral> Intercontinental has noise generation of 25 :-P
09:19:46 <DorpsGek> dihedral: I have not seen DaGeek.
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11:36:02 <Eddi|zuHause> no, really, someone should ban this svippy guy
11:38:24 <svippy> Alternatively, I should get off IRC and buy that new router.
11:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that does not exclude each other :p
11:39:55 <svippy> But it seems like you are assuming bad faith.
11:41:32 <svippy> And don't worry, Eddi|zuHause, I *am* going to buy that new router.
11:41:38 <svippy> Unfortunately, it is Sunday.
11:41:43 <svippy> So it'll have to wait till tomorrow.
11:42:09 <svippy> It may seem annoying, but the annoyance is mutual. If anything, it is more annoying to me than you.
11:42:28 <svippy> Even the wireless network have stopped working.
11:42:40 <svippy> Uh, and it is just brilliant it had to break down over Christmas.
11:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> "I never land on sundays. Sundays are boring."
11:43:22 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could have bought one yesterday.
11:43:29 <svippy> I wasn't home yesterday.
11:43:38 <svippy> As I said, it is Christmas.
11:43:45 <svippy> I have a lot social stuff to attend.
11:43:59 <svippy> Had it been any other time, I would have gone yesterday, even Wednesday.
11:45:06 <svippy> I'd love to fix it, and I will fix it, Eddi|zuHause, just bare with me one day?
11:45:31 <svippy> Besides, it is only once an hour now. Approx., so if a channel is busy enough, they'll never notice.
11:50:26 <Alberth> svippy: in that case you've got the wrong channel :P
11:51:03 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: alternatively, switch off reporting of users getting on/off line in your client
11:51:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but i love the green
11:51:24 <Rubidium> or just ignore him all together
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14:37:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14754 /trunk/src/ (67 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: get rid of _cmd_text and just pass it as (optional) parameter.
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15:02:27 <Evanescent> Hi, am i in the right place to ask a question regarding OpenTTD configuration?
15:03:44 <fjb> No, we are discussing only Christmas Cakes. This channel will beclosed soon.
15:04:48 <Evanescent> I am curious if there is a way to begin the game with a lower amount of money then default.
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15:07:35 <dihedral> Evanescent, have a read / search through wiki.openttd.org
15:07:43 <dihedral> esp the GamePlayManual
15:07:49 <dihedral> and, yes - there is a way
15:07:56 <Evanescent> I have, and i have found how to edit the value (increase it)
15:08:14 <Evanescent> although when i try to lower it below 100,000 pounds, it just rounds it back up to that value
15:11:39 * Evanescent think that a question was asked that the veterans do not know the answer to :(
15:13:15 <dihedral> which version are you playing?
15:15:44 <dihedral> so you still have a diff_custom, right?
15:16:04 <dihedral> where you set ...,100,... etc
15:16:24 <dihedral> i have not looked at 0.6.3 in a very long time
15:16:45 <Evanescent> Should be i using another version to accomplish this task?
15:16:50 <fjb> I just tested it. Max loan gets always raised to £100000 even if you edit opentt.cfg by hand.
15:17:30 <dihedral> was just about to ask him to enter 111 :-P
15:17:43 <dihedral> i think it only does steps of 50
15:17:50 <dihedral> starting at 100 up to 500
15:18:09 <dihedral> or, if you had read the wiki page as i said before, it starts at 200
15:18:18 <Evanescent> i was trying to get a game started with, for example, 20,000
15:18:20 <fjb> I tested r14579, so latest code should not sove that.
15:18:54 <Evanescent> So the game is hard coded to have a minimum of 100,000?
15:19:07 <Evanescent> or you are just unaware on how to solve this problem
15:19:40 <fjb> We are aware of anything.
15:20:07 <Evanescent> cool, so lets discuss the resolution :)
15:21:02 <dihedral> there is no need for a resolution
15:21:26 <Evanescent> Ok so you do not know how to solve my problem then?
15:21:34 <dihedral> Evanescent, settings.cpp
15:21:45 <dihedral> but there is nothing that needs a resolution
15:21:57 <Evanescent> there is no settings.cpp file in any folder.
15:22:05 <dihedral> and if you are soooo keen on discussing it, go to the forums and make a suggestion or file a report at bugs.openttd.org
15:22:22 <fjb> It is in the source code.
15:22:36 <Evanescent> i tried to, but for hours i have no received a confirmation email for the forum registration.
15:22:37 <dihedral> so - lets talk about your resolution
15:23:12 <fjb> Do don't need any registration to get the source code.
15:23:26 <dihedral> fjb: he means to post in the forums
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15:25:46 <fjb> We are no highly paid support team. If he can not wait for anything he has to do it on his own.
15:26:00 <Evanescent> Wait for an automated email to get sent to me?
15:26:02 <Evanescent> That is rather odd.
15:27:52 <dihedral> well - perhaps the forums did not want to discuss something that does not need to be discussed :-P
15:28:01 <dihedral> perhaps it can be addressed with a grf?
15:28:15 <dihedral> i.e. use the base cost modifyer grf, or pb_build
15:28:21 <dihedral> they increase building cost
15:29:27 <Evanescent> That is actually a very reasonable solution
15:29:51 * Evanescent thanks +dihedral and wishes that other patrons such as fjb were so friendly
15:30:58 <dihedral> Evanescent, it depends partially on your approach
15:31:16 <dihedral> you came in here, saying that something does not work as you desire, and want to discuss a 'fix'
15:31:23 <dihedral> that does not usually go down well
15:31:39 <Evanescent> i came in here asking if this was the right place to ask a question
15:31:42 <Evanescent> i stated my question
15:31:48 <Evanescent> and it was discussed appropriately
15:31:56 <Evanescent> i don't see the problem that arose.
15:33:29 <dihedral> [16:20] <Evanescent> cool, so lets discuss the resolution :) <- hmmmm.... sounds a wee odd to me, like you wanted a 'fix' in the code to meet your needs
15:33:41 <Evanescent> [02:19] <fjb> We are aware of anything. <----- before i said that
15:33:45 <dihedral> if others have that feeling, then they often dont respond very happily
15:34:03 <dihedral> or shut off, and dont listen at all
15:34:12 <Evanescent> I was given attitude for no apparent reason
15:34:19 <dihedral> even i do that sometimes... not a good habbit
15:34:41 <dihedral> i mean i mention a bug, ask for a fix, and it's not desired
15:34:51 <dihedral> Evanescent, just need to look at it the other way :-P
15:34:56 <Evanescent> Either way, i forgive fjb for being conceited.
15:35:56 * fjb just added one person to his personal ignore list.
15:36:44 * dihedral believes fjb is on many personal ignore lists
15:37:57 * Evanescent finds fjb cute and cuddly
15:39:03 <Evanescent> that pb_build was helpful, although left the cost of the vehicles the same :o
15:42:40 <glx> Evanescent: about the mail, did you check in your spam box ?
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16:10:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14755 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: remove ending year as it can't be changed anyways.
16:13:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14756 /trunk/src/lang/ (40 files): -Update (r14755): remove removed string from other languages too.
16:16:21 <fjb> Why is the ending year hard coded?
16:17:00 <glx> fjb: because it's displayed using an image
16:17:39 <murr4y> sorry, but, what should "vehicle_breakdowns" be set to in server config to turn them off? "0" or "false" didn't work
16:18:11 <glx> murr4y: did you also set diff_level to 3 ?
16:21:50 <glx> set it to 3 (custom) else it won't read modified values
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17:53:03 <edeca> 3~Wooh, I've got copy&paste applied to trunk and made it compile :D
17:53:09 <edeca> Now to start on all the bugs it has :|
18:01:37 <Eddi|zuHause> there are no bugs, there are features, and misfeatures
18:02:22 <edeca> It has *many* misfeatures
18:02:31 <edeca> And many of them are written in a very misproper way (apparently)
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18:16:28 <edeca> Hrm, can I compile with debug?
18:16:42 <edeca> It's crashing on the menu & if I try to load an old game, but new games work fine
18:17:43 <edeca> In fact, it seems completely random, which suggests to me I need to fix something :)
18:20:44 <Progman> crashing as in segfault/assert?
18:21:22 <Rubidium> ./configure --enable-debug=[123] where 1 'only' adds debugging symbols, 2 also disables optimisatins and 3 also doesn't inline (fast, slower, slowest)
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18:21:43 <edeca> I'm building in cygwin. I might have to restore my linux partition
18:21:51 <edeca> Rubidium: Excellent, thanks
18:22:10 <edeca> Ah, nice! I'll install that
18:22:29 <edeca> Rubidium: I started on the build templates patch, managed to massage it into trunk
18:24:28 <Progman> Rubidium: 2 and 3 are twisted
18:24:42 <Rubidium> Progman: in what way?
18:25:11 <Progman> 2 := -fno-line, 3 := -O0
18:25:57 <Rubidium> ah well... same idea
18:26:21 <Rubidium> higher number == better stacktrace and higher number == slower
18:27:18 <Progman> the more you know ...--*
18:27:29 <edeca> Actually, the crash only appeared when I modified and recompiled only 1 file
18:27:41 <edeca> A nice make mrproper and rebuild works
18:28:02 <edeca> Does that often happen?
18:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> only when you do it the wrong way
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18:36:14 <edeca> Well I used the makefile, nothing fancy
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18:42:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r14757 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:42:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-12-28 18:41:48
18:42:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 140 fixed, 26 changed by khaloofah (166)
18:42:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 1 fixed, 2 changed by Hadez (3)
18:42:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 fixed by Excel20 (1)
18:42:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 fixed by glx (1)
18:42:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: indonesian - 1 fixed, 69 changed by fanioz (70)
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19:45:00 <edeca> So do most of the developers use linux? Or cygwin? Or do some people actually use windows development tools?
19:55:39 <edeca> Good answer, if cryptic.
19:55:46 <edeca> Perhaps you'd like some brandy? :)
20:07:40 <Progman> reproduzible, tab-complete for a name with non-ascii
20:09:19 <edeca> Have you checked flyspray?
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20:28:31 <edeca> At a guess, they're useful if you can produce a test-case that is reproducable and hasn't been fixed in a later version.
20:29:01 <edeca> Search the bug tracker & if there isn't already a bug, make a new one and attach your dumps
20:29:55 <Progman> sure, but its difficult to get a reproducible test-case for network problems (imo)
20:34:21 <edeca> Well you said it was tab-complete for a name with non-ASCII?
20:34:37 <Progman> that was something different
20:43:08 <edeca> If you use a newgrf for trains but it doesn't include monorail trains, will monorail be disabled?
20:43:13 <edeca> Or can the original trains be used?
20:43:22 <edeca> I'm using pikkabird's grf, but haven't got monorail by 2005
20:47:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it will be disabled
20:47:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but there might be a newgrf out there that re-enables the original vehicles
20:48:01 <Eddi|zuHause> (as long as the "multiple engine grfs" switch is on)
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20:53:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14758 /trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp: -Fix: determine the real size of a depot before trying to place it.
20:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> size of a depot?
20:56:35 <Rubidium> I'm very good in forgetting words and then not noticing that I've forgotten them
20:56:56 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, that makes quite a bit more sense ;)
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21:06:36 <SmatZ__> I will be back next Friday...
21:07:32 <Rubidium> wow... combining IRCing with skiing; haven't heard that before
21:07:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14759 /trunk/src/network/ (core/tcp.h network_chat_gui.cpp): -Fix (r14730): tab completion causing out-of-bounds read.
21:08:48 <Rubidium> Progman: the last backtrace has too little information
21:09:09 <Progman> < Progman> I guess not :(
21:09:22 <Progman> what else do you need besides bt full?
21:10:03 <Rubidium> something that doesn't have "<value optimized out>" would be more helpfull
21:10:27 <Rubidium> and knowing what you did when you disconnected
21:11:48 <Progman> how can I disable these <value optimized out>?
21:12:07 <Rubidium> by compiling a debug build with --enable-debug=3
21:12:22 <Progman> ou, its not a gdb thing he is hiding a struct/class/whatever?
21:13:18 <Rubidium> it's g++ that optimized it out of the stack
21:14:30 <Rubidium> anyhow... it's due to a connection being killed twice
21:14:58 <Rubidium> so I need to know what killed it the first time and why it wanted to kill it the second time
21:15:49 <SmatZ__> thank you Vikthor :-)
21:23:14 <Rubidium> see the subtle difference between
21:23:15 <Rubidium> #4 0x0000000000496878 in NetworkClientError (res=<value optimized out>, cs=0x86fa10)
21:23:26 <Rubidium> #4 0x00000000004b9328 in NetworkClientError (res=NETWORK_RECV_STATUS_CONN_LOST, cs=0x937600)
21:26:46 <Progman> indeed, but it is useful for you? ;)
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21:43:14 <ccfreak2k> <SmatZ__> I'm skiing :)
21:43:25 <ccfreak2k> Laptop in one hand and poles in the other?
21:44:40 <Rubidium> ccfreak2k: that joke is so 36 minutes old...
21:45:04 <ccfreak2k> Good jokes never die.
21:45:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14760 /trunk/src/network/core/tcp.cpp: -Fix (rlongago): network connection of clients being closed twice (found due to added assertion in r14730)
21:46:03 <Rubidium> Progman, ^there's your answer
21:48:32 <ccfreak2k> Stick it on your resume.
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22:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> don't they sell routers at gas stations or something?
22:21:58 * Rubidium wonders why Eddi|zuHause never bitched about reconnects and the like to a few others that timeout/reconnect on a daily basis
22:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i most certainly did... or at least i wanted to... and not "daily" but more like "hourly"
22:23:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14761 /trunk/src/core/random_func.cpp: -Fix (r14730): missed the one DEREF_CLIENT in the random debug code :(
22:24:36 <Rubidium> well... he doesn't swamp my screen with reconnects so it isn't that bad
22:24:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you should have seen yesterday :p
22:27:50 <Rubidium> ah... a few of his nicks already earned a place on my /ignore list... explains why it doesn't bother me
22:28:03 <Eddi|zuHause> grep svip oftc.net_#openttd.log | grep verlassen | grep 'Sa Dez 27' | wc -l
22:28:18 <edeca> Heh, the copy&paste patch allows you to build on water :|
22:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> strange coincidence :p
22:28:43 <Rubidium> there's your answer ;)
22:28:49 <Rubidium> it's meant to be that way
22:30:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i am way too curious for ignore lists...
22:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't bear witnessing half conversations
22:33:03 <mincepie> when I ignore people, nasty Germans make sarcastic comments at me due to the ensuing confusion
22:33:54 <Eddi|zuHause> germans are not nasty
22:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but they do know how to make sarcastic remarks :p
22:34:08 <mincepie> aha! there's the nasty german in question
22:35:10 <Eddi|zuHause> don't take them too seriously, it's our cultural way of making compliments ;)
22:35:35 <mincepie> you're a cruel person, eddi... have you considered a career in politics?
22:38:35 <mincepie> with that blog post in mind, I should perhaps consider moving to germany
22:38:36 <mincepie> I would fit in _perfectly_
22:39:38 <ccfreak2k> I know an Austrian.
22:39:42 <ccfreak2k> I'm gonna show him that link.
22:40:08 <mincepie> ccfreak2k: beware austrians
22:40:17 <mincepie> they're cleverer than they look...
22:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> there are some really awesome articles on that page ;)
22:40:25 <mincepie> they have managed to convince all the world that Hitler was german
22:41:59 <Eddi|zuHause> it gets worse than that. in the peace treaty of austria they added a paragraph that austria admits all crimes of war it commited, but they convinced everybody that there was no austria during the war, so there was nothing to admit
22:42:28 <mincepie> I think I will refrain from reading them all
22:42:28 <mincepie> I don't think I should be required to read anything targeted at Americans ¬.¬
22:42:38 <mincepie> again, devilishly clever little blighters ¬.¬
22:42:46 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: you lot should've screamed harder that it wasn't right...
22:43:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well, legally, austria ceased to exist when it joined germany (which back then was a violation of the versailles treaty, but nobody cared enough)
22:44:08 <mincepie> I think the germans might have considered themselves a bit lacking in moral authority at the time
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22:46:14 <mincepie> these oversized 1€ chocolate coins are the same size as the oversized 2€ chocolate coins
22:46:35 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... this clone wars series is not really overwhelming
22:46:50 <Swallow> Code question: Is it possible to use the place object functionality when paused?
22:46:59 <mincepie> (apparently chocolatiers have given up bothering to make sterling-based chocolate coins)
22:47:08 <Rubidium> what recent series is really overwhelming?
22:47:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Swallow: "build while paused" cheat?
22:47:25 <mincepie> Rubidium: blackadder goes forth
22:47:49 <mincepie> it is less than a quarter of a century old; I think it should be considered recent on that basis
22:47:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: pushing daisies, but of course they had to cancel that.
22:47:58 <Swallow> without cheating of course...
22:48:29 <Rubidium> can't he touch the series?
22:48:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Swallow: what kind of sense would it make to have a non-cheat alternative of a cheat?
22:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> True Blood is quite acceptable, too
22:49:56 <Swallow> In the case that I don't use the PlaceObject stuff for building something, but just for selecting a location on the map
22:51:22 <Eddi|zuHause> in case of "marking" something, wouldn't you rather use signs?
22:52:50 <Swallow> It's for a patch I'm writing..
22:53:45 <Swallow> Thanks to your build-while-paused hint, I think I have found what I was looking for by digging in the code
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23:13:58 <Eddi|zuHause> this "buster" guy, for example, is one of the candidates that i always wanted to complain about
23:16:21 <dihedral> [com] [gone] [joke] [big-fat] [nobodycaresanyway]
23:22:18 <Eddi|zuHause> [Do Jun 19 2008] [07:29:44] <Eddi|zuHause2> may i request banning HerzogDeXtEr*? he never says anything, but every night he spams the channel with rejoins
23:22:19 <Eddi|zuHause> [Do Jun 19 2008] [07:30:34] <Eddi|zuHause2> [*]buster is not much better
23:22:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i really did complain...
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23:39:10 <dihedral> and he _is_ asking for being kicked.... "[00:08] * [com]buster has quit (Quit: Operator, give me an exit)"
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