IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-12-02
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02:08:52 <Belugas> snap snap SNAP SNAP!!!
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02:40:34 <mikegrb> V2C47-MK7JD-3R89F-D2KXW-VPK3J
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12:43:44 <Celestar> heh. Michelin reinvented the wheel .. again
12:44:58 <Celestar> made one including suspension, brake and an electric engine with 40HP sustained power (80HP peak power)
12:50:17 <mrfrenzy> that is probably the future for small vehicles
12:52:30 <petern> that's not exactly new is it?
12:52:59 <petern> trains, for example...
12:53:20 <mrfrenzy> nope, there has been talks about it for years
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12:56:50 <Celestar> petern: trains don't have their motors in the wheels
12:57:04 <Celestar> petern: yeah, that's the one
12:57:23 <petern> the wheel is no more active than a normal wheel
12:57:34 <Celestar> it has a motor in it :P
12:57:35 <petern> just the motor and gubbins is small enough to fit inside
12:57:40 <Celestar> it could drive itself :P
12:58:28 <petern> i mean, i assume you don't have to remove the whole lot just to replace the tyre...
12:58:43 <Celestar> petern: this is the main question I'm asking myself as well
12:59:24 <Celestar> otoh I'm having my wheels replaced and not do it myself
12:59:30 <petern> it would keep efficiency up, if you had to replace/recycle the motor at the same time
12:59:48 <Celestar> petern: I don't want to replace my motors every 6 months :P
13:00:39 <petern> hmm, does it support steering...
13:01:28 <Celestar> there's no fundamental reason why you shouldn't be able to turn the whole assembly
13:02:31 <Celestar> petern: but since there's a prototype with these things driving it might work :P
13:02:56 <petern> hmm, so 160HP in a 4 wheel drive combination...
13:03:15 <Celestar> petern: 160HP is decent for a normal 4 person car. but it's 320HP peak output, which is not bad at all
13:03:46 <Celestar> you could have 320HP with 640HP peak with the dual-wheel layout :P
13:03:46 <petern> 80HP is perfectly fine for a smaller (but still 4 person) car
13:04:10 <petern> torques, as mr clarkson likes to say
13:04:22 <petern> then you just need a decent power source
13:04:36 <petern> i vote for dodgems style catenary!
13:04:39 <Celestar> the prototype has a CO2 emmision of 15g/km in France, and about 75g/km in Germany.
13:05:00 <petern> the emmissions change?
13:05:19 <Celestar> depending on how the specific country produces the electrical energy
13:05:33 <Celestar> (it has a LiIon pack worth 400km of range)
13:05:53 <petern> hmm, scalextric pickups...
13:06:00 <petern> drive down a groove in the road
13:06:40 <petern> hmm, i wonder how things like ABS and TC translate
13:07:13 <Celestar> petern: to what language?
13:07:51 <Celestar> or do you mean into that active wheel?
13:08:29 <Celestar> ABS and TC has been used in electric engines for decades.
13:10:29 <Celestar> hm the BR103 (1970) and traction control
13:10:37 <Celestar> but it was per-bogie
13:10:41 <Celestar> the BR101 has it per axle
13:11:24 <Celestar> so if we did it in the 70s for a 300kN system, we can do it for a measly 40HP engine in 2008 :P
13:15:35 * Celestar wonders when Germany will accept that fact that we MUST build nuclears should we want a significant reduction of CO2 emissions.
13:19:04 <Celestar> well ... they say they do
13:19:08 <petern> when well the green loonies accept that... heh
13:19:32 <Celestar> The Greens have zero idea about protecting the environment, at least in Germany.
13:19:43 <Celestar> They lack the scientific and technical expertise.
13:20:01 <Celestar> but they can state clearly what they don't want
13:21:10 <DorpsGek> Sacro: I have not seen Bjarnli.
13:21:44 <Celestar> CRITICAL - load average: 24.38, 17.05, 10.03
13:27:31 <gynter> thats a lot of load...
13:28:00 <Celestar> because CPU util is around 5%
13:42:56 <Celestar> planetmaker: it's not long-term. it's until a working Tokamak or better, Stellerator
13:43:13 <planetmaker> hehe. Which will always be done in 50 years :P
13:43:35 <Celestar> no one sais 50 years nowadays
13:43:53 <Celestar> 30 years till a working economical reactor
13:44:21 <Celestar> 20 years to an energy-producing power plant
13:44:46 <planetmaker> hmm... in the optimistic forecasts, yes.
13:45:16 <Celestar> optimistic means that the idiots called politicians don't cut budgets further
13:45:22 <planetmaker> Currently they still run a huge deficit and have due to plasma deterioration huge downtimes.
13:45:48 <Celestar> both these problems are to be solved with ITER
13:46:03 <planetmaker> to be. That's the plan.
13:46:22 <planetmaker> But there are still fundamental problems with how to remove the fusion "ashes" and so on.
13:46:41 <planetmaker> and keep containment of an evolving plasma.
13:46:46 <Celestar> hence it would be prudent to increase research spending
13:47:04 <planetmaker> no doubt about that. But on the time line irrespective of funding.
13:47:24 <planetmaker> Talking to those guys in person they don't quote 20 years or 30.
13:47:39 <Celestar> and get Wendelstein 7-X finished a bit faster.
13:47:48 <planetmaker> Though certainly it'd be nice to be true.
13:47:48 <Celestar> all the coils are there and it'll still take 6 years to complete
13:48:16 <planetmaker> Wendelstein 7-X is not even designed to have a positive energy gain.
13:48:51 <planetmaker> it's still all about containment.
13:50:15 <Celestar> planetmaker: I still wonder whether our approach is wrong. Maybe we should start building a fusion engine first
13:50:26 <planetmaker> newgrf proposal: an industry for OTTD, starting in 2050: hydrogen plan, delivers to fusion power plant. Substitutes coal :P
13:50:55 <planetmaker> Celestar: what do you mean with fusion engine? Spacecraft?
13:51:16 <Ammler> you mean there will be still coal power in 40 years?
13:51:19 <planetmaker> which rather is no fusion... err...
13:51:25 <Celestar> planetmaker: fusion.
13:51:52 <planetmaker> Celestar: but there the principle problem is the same as in a power plant... where do you see the principle difference?
13:52:08 <planetmaker> Ammler: sure... peak coal is still long time of the screens.
13:52:28 <planetmaker> peak oils currently is. peak uranium probably soon will be (<50 years)
13:52:44 <Celestar> planetmaker: problem with confinement and ashes are reduced
13:53:07 <Aali> didn't someone somewhere at some point in time propose we make a spaceship that shoots out nukes behind it to accelerate?
13:53:12 <planetmaker> Celestar: not much. Only the confinement will ensure you to actually _have_ fusion.
13:53:20 <Aali> thats a "fusion" engine alright :)
13:53:23 <planetmaker> Aali: that's not fusion :)
13:53:32 <Celestar> Aali: that was the NASA, and it IS a viable propulion system.
13:53:46 <Aali> only the fusion isn't happening inside the engine
13:54:05 <Celestar> called project Orion.
13:54:08 * petern grumbles about microsoft's mail clients not supports TLS for imap
13:54:20 <Celestar> it's a just a propulsion system with little political backing
13:54:25 <Aali> but you can't use nukes in space, right?
13:54:48 <Celestar> Aali: the Test-Ban-Treaty will end some daya
13:55:30 <Celestar> but I guess we'll have more advanced prop systems then
13:55:50 <planetmaker> not sure whether a test ban treaty expiration is really desirable...
13:57:47 <Celestar> not sure whether the chinese have signed it in the first place for exxample ..
14:00:28 <Celestar> not sure whether the NSWR falls under the test ban treaty too
14:04:55 <planetmaker> nswr? what's that?
14:05:01 <Celestar> nuclear salt water rocket.
14:05:12 <Celestar> a concept by Bob Zubrin.
14:05:17 <planetmaker> uh... never heard that either...
14:05:33 <Celestar> basic idea is to make a solution of Uranium bromide.
14:05:46 <Celestar> and inject that into a nozzle with critical mass/shape
14:06:31 <planetmaker> as any "official" nuclear power.
14:06:48 <planetmaker> so... neither India nor Pakistan.
14:07:00 <planetmaker> nor Israel nor North Korea...
14:07:29 <planetmaker> That UBr-idea sounds "interesting"...
14:07:46 <Celestar> AFAIK, this treaty doesn't cover space, does it?
14:07:58 <Celestar> wasn't there a separate one?
14:08:06 <Celestar> might be wrong however
14:13:02 <planetmaker> there was. But it got superseeded afaik. It's in the wiki entry.
14:13:55 <planetmaker> that was covered even by the first one, the partial test ban treaty 1963
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14:19:20 <Celestar> planetmaker: so basically the CTBT is not really in effect, is it?
14:20:39 <planetmaker> obviously by law: it isn't.
14:21:28 <Celestar> a Nuclear Thermal rocket is not covered by the treaty
14:21:37 <Celestar> neither are space-nuclear reactors of course
14:23:11 <Celestar> basically everything that doesn't go "Boom"
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14:36:42 <planetmaker> well. It's not a treaty to abolish nuclear technology. It's a treaty to slow down nuclear weapons research... well... the obvious one ;)
14:38:53 <Belugas> any researches been done on flowers and love?
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14:54:54 <planetmaker> Belugas: I heard quite some was done in woodstock...
14:57:42 <Belugas> Make Looooove! Not WAR!!!
14:59:41 <Celestar> Window's market share has dropped below 90% in November 2008, down almost 3 PP from November 2007 and 7 PP from November 2004.
15:00:16 * Belugas removes a tear from his left eye
15:02:43 <Belugas> ho... sorry petern. Was not aware you were so close :)
15:03:00 <Belugas> that should teach me not to drop my tears every where :D
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15:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause> how was that again? inflicting a thermonuclear explosion is punishable by 3 years of prison or something?
15:58:43 <Rubidium> that's not much of a sentence for suicide bombers :(
15:59:38 <Eddi|zuHause> well, of course you are punishable for the multiple murder as well ;)
15:59:52 <benjamingoodger> I don't think sentencing suicide bombers is necessary
16:01:56 <Eddi|zuHause> 3 years if the action was "fahrlässig" (i.e. without intention)
16:03:34 <Rubidium> it still sounds a bit strange to me; if you accidentally set off such an explosion you're likely nearby and thus dead
16:04:04 <Eddi|zuHause> well... possibly you just were not instructed what that red button was for...
16:04:39 <Rubidium> or it was an nuclear power plant that went sky high
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16:18:40 <frosch123> poop planetmaker, alone against 10 noobs :p
16:27:52 <fjb> frosch123: Talking about the german forum?
16:28:19 <frosch123> can you name another place, where you can encounter 10 noobs at once
16:29:31 <frosch123> ok, maybe "noob" was not appropiate
16:29:31 <fjb> Especially noobs that know everything even better than everybody else....
16:30:04 <fjb> Rubidium: Better don't look at the german forum...
16:30:32 <HerzogDeXtEr> anyone who uses that word for beginners should be kicked out of the channel :D
16:31:07 <Rubidium> HerzogDeXtEr: better write n006, right?
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16:32:58 <frosch123> HerzogDeXtEr: I guess it holds "BusyBeaver(postcount of planetmaker) < sum of postcounts of the 10 n006z"
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16:35:28 <HerzogDeXtEr> now he can buy himself a gum
16:37:52 <Belugas> newbees ? clueless? wanabe-admins?
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16:58:22 <Eddi|zuHause> lmao @ the forum thread :p
17:01:00 <glx> Belugas: I'd say a*******
17:02:20 <Belugas> andouilles aussi, mais la, on a besoin de deux lettres de plus :)
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17:10:05 <Eddi|zuHause> my french is a little rusty, did you just say "you just need to add two letters there?" [i.e. 'a**']?
17:10:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what "andouilles" could mean
17:11:10 <petern> Andouille (French: [ɑ̃duj], American English: [ɑnˡdu:ɪ] (pronounced ahn-DWEE) is defined [1] as "a coarse-grained smoked meat made using pork, chitterlings, pepper, onions, wine, and seasonings. Andouille is French in origin, and was brought to Louisiana by French or German immigrants. Today the sausage is most often associated with Cajun cooking." [1]
17:11:36 <petern> looks horrible, mind you
17:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> "(pronounced ahn-DWEE)" <- i could never pronounce that...
17:13:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and based on context, i
17:13:25 <Eddi|zuHause> 'd have expected it to be an insult of some kind...
17:16:45 <Belugas> depends :) andouilles can be a sausage, but it can be a pejorative name too, like little stupid or something alike :)
17:17:04 <Belugas> headless jerk or else ;)
17:17:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "anduille" - "Hornochse, Dämlack, Rindvieh, Dummkopf, Armleuchter" <- that's more like it :p
17:17:48 <frosch123> "arme wurst" also works in german
17:19:09 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i'd not have the same association with that...
17:23:28 <ccfreak2k> You know, like when I go to do some lahn-DWEE in my house.
17:27:38 <Belugas> frosch123, are you aware of a delphi symbol that i can check for debug vs release?
17:28:43 <Belugas> like the {$IFNDEF VER140} and so on
17:29:40 <frosch123> no, I could also only look up the help page :)
17:35:43 <Belugas> i doubt, glx. but it's worth a try :)
17:35:59 <Belugas> frosch123, i did a thorough read, but it seems very well hidden if it's there
17:36:45 <Belugas> mmh... by the way... i'm starting to wonder if the transfers orders should not be made available by a switch in the settings
17:37:17 <Belugas> and once checked, a BIG RED MESSAGE telling waht you should expect regarding payments...
17:37:32 <Belugas> there is so many posts about that feature :S
17:37:38 <Belugas> people are REALLY boring
17:37:58 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v DorpsGek
17:37:58 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Belugas
17:42:20 <ccfreak2k> The one where vehicles doing transfer get "virtual cash" so they don't show up as negative income?
17:44:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that, and the one where the vehicles get too much virtual cash, so that the last (slow) vehicle does show up as negative income
17:45:15 <Belugas> "how come i've got no income"
17:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> and last but not least, the one where they enable transfer for all stations, so nothing ever gets delivered
17:45:52 <Belugas> if the system is too complicated for you, go back to tic-tac-towe
17:46:16 <Rubidium> Belugas: transfers are more hidden in the new order gui
17:49:03 <Belugas> i was just reacting to the number of "problems" related to that feature.
17:50:35 <dihedral> a lost train remains a lost train until it's no longer lost, but how should a lost train know it's not lost anymore if the lost train does not know where it is?
17:54:24 <Belugas> thankfully, Dalestan is still making me laugh : "And the apo'strophe doe's not mean "Look out! Here come's an 'S'!""
17:55:00 <Rubidium> Beluga's it's Dale'stan!
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17:57:01 <dihedral> i prefer switching the D and the St
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18:02:59 <Belugas> wooo... dihedral, i think you should hate Dalestan. Switching letters, you can come up with "El D Satan"
18:03:01 <frosch123> Belugas: Well I guess you can define your own DEBUG symbol, and then disable or enable debug build depending on its definition :)
18:03:47 <Belugas> just that it means thinking of setting the switch on/off depending of the desired target
18:04:10 <Belugas> in an environment where you are not the only one to build releases, it might be prone to human errors
18:04:33 <frosch123> sure, when you are not alone you are doomed
18:25:30 <Belugas> that' our regular set of debugging infos include
18:25:59 <Belugas> so "Debug Information, Local Symbols and Reference Info/Definitions",
18:26:44 <frosch123> hehe, I cannot remember ever having done a non-debug build with delphi :)
18:27:28 <Belugas> we have releases :) so of course, we need to lower thwe size of the exes ;)
18:27:41 <Belugas> that's called deployment hehe
18:31:22 <planetmaker> [17:18] <frosch123> poop planetmaker, alone against 10 noobs :p <-- hehehe... ;)
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18:47:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r14648 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:47:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-12-02 18:46:52
18:47:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 3 fixed, 5 changed by knovak (8)
18:47:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 37 changed by IPG (37)
18:47:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: indonesian - 62 fixed by fanioz (62)
18:47:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 17 fixed by Enternald (17)
18:47:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: malay - 66 fixed, 2 changed by tombakemas (68)
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18:55:07 <Belugas> Coder of the Month : translators!
19:01:47 <Wolf01> eh, the combo breakers...
19:01:50 <benjamingoodger> the latter I think
19:06:24 * benjamingoodger has german christmas biscuits
19:07:09 <benjamingoodger> it just says "german"
19:07:10 * welshdragon is a spanis student
19:07:27 <benjamingoodger> though there's cinnamon on the box, and I can taste ginger in them also
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19:09:37 <fjb> Definitely sounds like german christmas biscuits.
19:09:52 <Wolf01> benjamingoodger, if you can smell cinnamon then there's Spice on your biscuits, be careful with Spice
19:10:54 <Wolf01> Spice, Dune, giant worms...
19:11:17 <benjamingoodger> no, I've checked the packet thoroughly for giant worms
19:11:51 <Wolf01> no, they are really giant
19:12:45 * fjb thinks that Italian wolves don't know much about German christmas biscuits.
19:12:53 <Wolf01> and Spice make your eyes fully blue if you abuse assumption
19:12:56 <Prof_Frink> Bigger than the one in the Hoth asteroid belt?
19:13:27 <Wolf01> maybe they are of the same size
19:18:11 <SmatZ> hmm program crashes when I run it... but doesn't crash when I run it in debugger :-x
19:19:54 <frosch123> infact I encountered that several times in some delphi version. disabling the optimizer for the affected function helped :)
19:20:39 <SmatZ> I don't recompile the program, I just run it in debugger - and it doesn't crash :)
19:21:55 <Rubidium> SmatZ: write a crashhandler that dumps a core file that you can then read in the debugger?
19:22:50 <SmatZ> Rubidium: would be useful for OTTD too I guess :)
19:28:15 * Belugas is lightining some incense sticks
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19:47:57 <Belugas> yeah. appointments are done for tonigh. I've got two stores (of two different merchants) to upgrade
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19:48:13 <Belugas> how wonderful it is to know stuff others don't yet :S
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19:49:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i have had that feeling many times :p
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21:03:36 <Belugas> [14:50] <Eddi|zuHause> i have had that feeling many times :p <--- yup :) just go on forums and you have that feeling ^_^
21:14:12 <Ishka> I have a question about the code: How do I show a debug message?
21:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> grep -i debug src/*?
21:15:49 <Belugas> you do not send it to a nice popping window, if that's wat yu had in mind
21:16:07 <Ishka> that is, what I had in mind.
21:16:30 <Eddi|zuHause> no, debug messages are only ever sent to the console
21:17:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the one where you started the game, or the ingame console (key above <tab>), depending on setting
21:35:51 <Belugas> Ishka, but personnaly, i think that there's nothing better than a good breakpoint ;)
21:36:27 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
21:41:21 <Ishka> I like debugging in the applications, because webapplications (which I program normaly) are hardly run by debuggers ;)
21:48:39 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
22:09:05 <fjb> Will something like this make sense: "if (command.flags & (CF_GROUP | CF_CMD | CF_DATA | CF_INT))"?
22:10:12 <Aali> what are you checking for?
22:10:45 <fjb> Checking if CF_GROUP etc are bits set in command.flags
22:11:14 <Aali> that will tell you if any of those flags are set
22:11:37 <fjb> Hm, I want to tst if all of them are set.
22:12:36 <fjb> This is C, by the way. Forgot to say that.
22:14:25 <Aali> what you need is (command.flags & (CF_GROUP | CF_CMD | CF_DATA | CF_INT)) == (CF_GROUP | CF_CMD | CF_DATA | CF_INT) but thats really messy so you should probably write it some other way (depending on what you're doing and where)
22:15:16 <fjb> Thank you. Some #define may help.
22:15:52 <Aali> indeed, if that makes sense with what you're working on
22:19:53 <fjb> Hm, could I also write " if (command.flags == (CF_GROUP | CF_CMD | CF_DATA | CF_INT)) " if I want all of this but no other bit set?
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22:26:24 <Eddi|zuHause> you can check "if (~command.flags & (CF_GROUP | CF_CMD | CF_DATA | CF_INT) == 0)" to check if all are set
22:28:37 <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: yes, and people will scratch their heads wondering what the hell that is supposed to do
22:29:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what "// checks if all of these flags are set" for
22:30:43 <Aali> that explains what it does, but it doesn't tell them how it works
22:31:06 <Eddi|zuHause> then you send them to the next best logic lecture...
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22:32:42 <Aali> well, I assume everyone is incompetent because most people I have ever worked with are :P
22:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> then they should the hell take their paws of this code
22:35:24 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, that's the shortest version i could think of that doesn't use any preprocessor magic
22:35:52 <Aali> we're not playing perl golf here :P
22:35:57 <Aali> its not supposed to be short
22:36:38 <fjb> But I have to admit that Eddi|zuHause's solution is really smart.
22:37:31 <Eddi|zuHause> short expressions CAN be a means to achieve readability
22:37:41 <Aali> it is, and thats the problem, because then whoever modifies it has to be smart or it will break
22:38:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there are really "worse" parts of the code in that aspect...
22:38:17 <Aali> i would take clarity over shortness any day
22:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and i hope you'll ever try to understand the yapf core :p
22:40:28 <ccfreak2k> It's just using a logic AND to compare current flags with #defined flags.
22:40:33 <ccfreak2k> It's not that hard to understand.
22:41:20 <Eddi|zuHause> those are enum values, not defines
22:42:04 <ccfreak2k> My point remains valid.
22:43:00 <fjb> But that should not make that much difference.
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22:48:32 <fjb> I decides that Eddi|zuHause's solution is the best way to go in my project. The way I use should make it clear to everybody.
22:48:55 <fjb> missing = ~command.flags & (CF_GROUP | CF_CMD | CF_DATA | CF_INT)
22:49:30 <fjb> if (missing == 0) ... else ...
23:24:12 <nicfer1> hmmm would be too hard to port openttd to rockbox?
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23:25:31 <burbas> Hi. Is there a setting that disable airports on a server?
23:25:50 <nicfer1> yes, set max numbers of airplanes to 0
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23:40:06 <nicfer1> oh, and the apt repositories doesn't yet have 0.6.3
23:41:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that you'll have to talk to the repository maintainers about
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23:45:25 <Rubidium> nicfer1: the apt repositories do have 0.6.3
23:45:32 <Rubidium> ... but only in unstable
23:45:43 <Rubidium> because testing is in deep freeze
23:45:59 <Rubidium> and you may be happy that 0.6.2 even got in
23:46:49 <nicfer1> oh, I'm using testing I think (lenny)
23:49:13 <welshdragon> anybody recognise the email translators-all@localhost ?
23:50:46 <nicfer1> is the new economy and balancing patch updated?
23:52:53 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on what you mean with "new", "economy", "balancing" or "updated"
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