IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-12-01
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00:04:41 *** XeryusTC is now known as Xeryus|bnc
00:26:49 <nicfer> airport noise finished???
00:27:08 <nicfer> roadmap for 0.7.0 says so
00:27:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's in trunk for months
00:27:37 <Chrill> where's an 0.7.0 roadmap, that is?
00:27:40 <Eddi|zuHause> might need some balance tweaks, though
00:28:04 <Eddi|zuHause> there's not really a roadmap
00:31:22 <nicfer> the roadmap for 0.8.0 says that it's complete :)ç
00:31:23 <Chrill> New AI would be quite awesome, how's the status on that?
00:31:39 <nicfer> The total readiness percentage of this roadmap is 100%
00:31:45 <Aali> NoAI is coming along pretty well
00:32:03 <Aali> AdmiralAI does all but ships, and other AI's do that
00:32:24 <Aali> so it's already far superior to the original AI
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00:33:16 <nicfer> hmmm, wasn't NoAI limited to road vehicles?
00:34:19 <Aali> it does trains now and it does it pretty well
00:34:36 <Rubidium> it has been supporting aircraft for eons already
00:35:11 <nicfer> ships are a nightmare right?
00:35:36 <welshdragon> when's 0.7.0 going to be released>
00:35:56 <Aali> not perfect, but it works
00:36:23 <nicfer> 0.7.0 will be released the same day than duke nukem forever
00:36:39 <nicfer> is that going even to be released?
00:36:43 <Rubidium> rvs for ~20 months, ships+aircraft for ~15 months and trains for 2 months
00:40:21 <nicfer> hmmm, are there enough bugs in 0.6.3 for allowing a 0.6.4 to be created?
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00:48:57 <glx> it will just a bug fix if it happens (so no new features)
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10:50:45 <dihedral> any brasilian people here?
10:54:52 <Rubidium> that's pretty unlikely
10:56:19 <Celestar> \o/ Finally a proper AMD 45nm Opteron benchmark
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11:07:58 <Celestar> Rubidium: normally, PSUs have their peak efficiency in the 45-70% load range
11:08:09 <Celestar> and drop considerably below 25%
11:08:27 <Celestar> how the system idles at around 140W, which is about 20%
11:09:09 <petern> Celestar: "more is better" is how it's seen a
11:09:24 <Celestar> I think they just put it in there because the Intel Xeon (Extreme) Version pulls up to 400W
11:10:06 <petern> that's what, another 100W?
11:10:37 <Celestar> a 100W drive array in a 1U case? how? :P
11:11:13 <Rubidium> Celestar: it makes me think of the Dutch energy label: Audi A5 more efficient than a Dodge Avenger which is more efficient than a Fiat 500 (all new cars)
11:11:21 <mrfrenzy> a modern psu should have decent efficiency from 10-100%
11:11:41 <Celestar> mrfrenzy: at 100% load, the efficiency usually drops as well
11:11:48 <Celestar> but not as badly as in the low area
11:11:50 <mrfrenzy> petern: yes, any good brand psu will work upto 100%
11:11:51 <petern> oh, 100% load, not 100% efficiency
11:11:59 <mrfrenzy> cheap crap will burn at around 70% usage
11:12:11 <petern> my home PC a seasonic 500W PSU
11:12:16 <Celestar> which is really horrible, since a decent PC today idles at around 40-50W
11:12:36 <petern> i dunno what that idles at
11:12:51 <mrfrenzy> I have exactly the same cpu and gfx
11:12:53 <Celestar> decent as in for office and occiasional gaming PC (E7200, 4GBRAM, P45 Mainboard, AMD 4670 GPU)
11:12:57 <mrfrenzy> however I don't have any decent energy meter
11:13:07 <Eddi|zuHause> anybody know if amarok 2 is usable yet?
11:13:17 <mrfrenzy> the cheap plugin-types are horribly wrong on switched loads
11:13:46 <petern> otoh, i don't leave my pc on all the time
11:13:51 <petern> so it's not wasting power all night
11:13:56 <Eddi|zuHause> useable as in i can switch from amarok 1.4.10 without losing any data or functionality?
11:14:14 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: _apparently_ (seems 11.1 will ship with amarok 2)
11:14:22 <thingwath> Eddi|zuHause: No :-)
11:14:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: that does not mean anything ;)
11:14:52 <Celestar> RC1 comes with 2.0 beta 1
11:15:21 <thingwath> I have 1.94 in Fedora 10, it works well, but...
11:15:44 <petern> i want servers with low power cpus
11:15:51 <petern> but virtualization is all the rage these days
11:16:25 <Eddi|zuHause> some time i need a low power home server for file storage and some web stuff...
11:16:43 <petern> Eddi|zuHause, not even home server
11:17:03 <Eddi|zuHause> preferably one where i can stick my DVB-S card in, for TV recording
11:17:12 <petern> i need things like servers that relays a couple of hundred emails day
11:17:12 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: I'm planning one of those
11:17:29 <thingwath> Decent power management could solve it.
11:17:43 <thingwath> Home server can sleep (as in suspend to RAM) most of the time.
11:17:49 <Eddi|zuHause> so i could have a PC for always-on-stuff and one where i really do stuff on
11:18:23 <Eddi|zuHause> thingwath: suspend is not really usefull when you want to have web interfaces active
11:18:39 <thingwath> It can wake up on each request.
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11:19:04 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i don't want suspend, i want a server that constantly does little things
11:19:07 <Celestar> AMD's new RVI tech in the Shanghai opterons really boost Virtualization
11:19:26 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: then use something based on an ARM CPU or something (=
11:19:36 <petern> what's atom like for power?
11:19:51 <Celestar> petern: at idle, about same as a Core 2 Duo E7200.
11:20:05 <petern> hmm, not that low power then
11:20:10 <Celestar> petern: at full load, about 30W below said Core 2 Duo.
11:20:33 <petern> in said email server sending a couple of hundred emails a day, full load is not often achieved
11:20:42 <Celestar> petern: you can get the Core 2 Duo system down to 29W without any special tricks (i.e. undervolting)
11:21:32 <Eddi|zuHause> 30W below 29W is... negative...
11:21:58 <Eddi|zuHause> hey... i could sell that power :p
11:22:03 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: idle :P
11:22:15 <Celestar> at load, said system is around 65W
11:22:44 <thingwath> Well, I guess most of home servers can stay sleeping for long minutes.
11:23:01 <Eddi|zuHause> thingwath: constantly as in having active connections all the time, not request based
11:23:51 <Celestar> how with undervolting and a good PSU, you could have that Core 2 Duo system at or near 25W
11:24:25 <thingwath> Active connections? Like you have to receive or send something very often (each second or so)?
11:24:25 <petern> problem is buying a complete rack mounted system containing low power stuff :o
11:25:09 <Celestar> I'm also not sure whether they had an active CPU cooler on that one (which is around another Watt)
11:25:22 <Celestar> disabling unused SATA ports might help too
11:25:36 <petern> the cooler'll make the cpu need less power though
11:26:02 <petern> although a sufficiently large heatsink would do
11:26:13 <petern> cpus need more power when they're hot
11:26:22 <Celestar> any decent passive cooler can get the CPU to about 2K above room temerature (when idle)
11:26:38 <Celestar> and on a server, I'd possibly lock the CPU to its lowest frequency anyway
11:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> thingwath: yes, for exapmple IRC connections need ping? pong! events to stay alive
11:27:09 <petern> just in case there is a load spike...
11:27:39 <Celestar> but the default cpufreq governors raise the frequency too quickly imho (for server environments)
11:27:55 <Celestar> not that one cannot reconfigure that
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11:28:54 <Celestar> hm . the MSI P45 Diamond appears to use even less power than the Foxconn mentioned in the article above.
11:29:11 <thingwath> Eddi|zuHause: But the computer can still sleep for quite a long time (tens of seconds). If we had better hardware and OS (not that much better)...
11:29:25 <Celestar> one Watt cooler, one Watt CPU undervolt, two Watts other mainboard, one Watt better CPU...
11:29:31 <Celestar> 5 Watts down already :P
11:30:09 <Eddi|zuHause> thingwath: how long do you still want to argue when i repeatedly said that this is not useful for me?
11:30:35 <thingwath> indefinetly, because it COULD be useful for you :-)
11:30:43 <thingwath> if someone made it work, finally
11:32:11 <Celestar> wake on any-IP-packet?
11:33:19 <thingwath> It would be just even deeper C state of modern CPU :-)
11:33:41 <thingwath> Point is that you don't necessarily need low power hardware, if you can turn it of for most of the time.
11:33:56 <Celestar> about 8W of the 29W needed are PSU losses ...
11:34:15 <Celestar> and you worry about which C state the CPU is in?
11:34:44 <petern> so we need 100% efficient PSUs
11:35:08 <petern> wait a second, i'll get one i've got stored in my hover car
11:35:23 <Celestar> you need a PSU efficient at 25-60 Watts
11:35:32 <Celestar> maybe a picoPSU would do the trick
11:36:05 <thingwath> well, most of this stuff is for mobile devices with batteries, of course
11:36:29 <petern> how do you make its 12v supply efficient?
11:36:46 <petern> spread across multiple systems, maybe
11:37:28 <petern> could probably have an efficient UPS too...
11:37:57 <blathijs> Celestar: There is a user level cpufreq governor, so you can write any policy you want for that
11:38:02 <mrfrenzy> 12V supplies are not efficient, too much cable losses
11:38:27 <petern> chunky bus-bar type supply? heh
11:38:42 <petern> input current... 10A... ouch
11:39:19 <mrfrenzy> or for larger setups 320V dc
11:39:28 <Celestar> 12V 10A would be 120 Watts :P
11:39:38 <Celestar> gotta get better cables then :P
11:40:33 <petern> hmm, 300W 12V ATX supply
11:40:59 <Eddi|zuHause> 10A? who the hell needs that kind of power?
11:41:33 <thingwath> current, not power...
11:43:01 <Celestar> a Xeon X5492 has a TDP of 150W
11:43:14 <Celestar> .. what's the amperage then? :P
11:43:43 <petern> about 136A, assuming it's all from the 1.1V, heh
11:43:48 <Celestar> some graphic cards pull around one hundred Amps as well
11:43:58 <Celestar> petern: yeah, but over 100A happen in CPUs
11:44:04 <Celestar> petern: there's a reason for all those pins :P
11:44:10 <Celestar> about 50% are power supply
11:46:01 <Celestar> 3 Amps of a decent copper cable of 0.5m in length shouldn't give much losses.
12:02:58 <Celestar> dang. my e-mail archive is 700MB :P
12:08:45 <Celestar> I don'T keep the spams :P
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12:43:22 <FauxFaux> Most mailing lists get more traffic per month than I've recieved non-spam e-mail in the last five years. :/
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13:15:46 <DASPRiD> FauxFaux, thats usual ;>
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17:28:02 <Ammler> Signal completation does now generate presignals?
17:28:36 <Ammler> just a question so to unsilent the channel
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17:29:23 <Sacro_> Ammler, just because a sentance ends with a quesiton mark does not mean it's a sane question
17:29:29 <Celestar> heh. somehow closed the wrong terminal earlier :P
17:30:23 <Ammler> Sacro_: indeed. Sorry.
17:30:36 <benjamingoodger> however, that is a sane question
17:30:44 <benjamingoodger> ¬.¬ at least grammatically...
17:30:50 <planetmaker> ^^very much so...
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17:31:13 <Sacro_> nope, sounds like a statement to me
17:31:18 <benjamingoodger> well, except for the word "completation"
17:31:22 <Sacro_> it has no who/what/where/how/why/when
17:31:28 <planetmaker> depends upon where you raise your voice.
17:31:32 <benjamingoodger> we don't actually need those to make it a question
17:31:53 <benjamingoodger> see also, most european languages
17:31:59 <Ammler> 2. try: if you autocomplete signalling, which type does it use now? (with trunk)
17:32:23 <planetmaker> the difference is whether you use a closed or an open question
17:32:41 <Aali> it will use whatever signal you dragged from
17:32:46 <Aali> its been like that forever
17:32:50 <benjamingoodger> well, sticking a question mark on the end of a sentence makes it a yes/no closed question, I suppose...
17:33:06 <Ammler> hmm, try to drag&drop a presignal
17:33:48 <planetmaker> Aali: not really :)
17:34:00 <planetmaker> I know times where it changed to a normal signal.
17:34:16 <planetmaker> I think peter fixed that somewhen (1, 2 months ago)
17:34:41 <planetmaker> he, yes, Ammler :)
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17:39:53 <Ammler> with 602, it works a little strange
17:40:40 <Ammler> how do you drag&drop presignals?
17:43:50 <Ammler> planetmaker: it does change to normal singals now
17:44:08 <Ammler> or was the change recently?
17:45:33 <Ammler> nah, I just tried with trunk
17:46:13 <planetmaker> you don't want to drag pre-signals anyway, do you?
17:46:48 <Ammler> if you used ctrl, it changed to normal but not on drag&drop
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17:47:20 <Ammler> now, also the "starting" signal does change
17:47:54 <planetmaker> yes. That was different before IMO.
17:48:42 <Ammler> well, those people who play currently doesn't miss it, it seems.
17:49:31 <Ammler> how do you guys build networks?
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18:18:59 <Ammler> Do you agree, that auto signalling shouldn't change the first signal? Or is that also intended?
18:24:46 <Belugas> it is intended that i have no opinion on da matter
18:25:49 <frosch123> err, no, I mean: auto signalcompletion does not change the first signal
18:29:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r14647 /trunk/src/lang/ (croatian.txt hungarian.txt spanish.txt unfinished/malay.txt):
18:29:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-12-01 18:28:38
18:29:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 160 changed by knovak (160)
18:29:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 2 changed by oklmernok (2)
18:29:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: malay - 20 fixed by SeaGates (20)
18:29:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 fixed by eusebio (1)
18:32:36 <Ammler> frosch123: so if it does, it is a bug?
18:34:07 <frosch123> Ammler: works for me
18:34:33 <Ammler> but only if the 1. signal is a normal one or pbs.
18:35:43 <frosch123> ok, but who wants to do that?
18:35:53 <Ammler> it works quite well with 0.6.3 btw.
18:36:26 <Ammler> so I guess, it broke with the "pbs signalling" update
18:36:49 <planetmaker> frosch: that's quite common for my building style: first station entry. Then track to station.
18:36:59 <planetmaker> First signal of station entry is... a pre-signal :)
18:37:20 <planetmaker> then it's a station exit ;)
18:38:04 <Ammler> you don't need it for entry signal, imo.
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18:39:24 <Ammler> oh, the opposite direction of course :-)
18:39:50 <Ammler> you set first the entry signal and auto signal back to the next junction
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18:41:22 <Ammler> but current situation is now almost 4 month in trunk and nobody complained about.
18:44:13 <Ammler> but what would it hurt, if you leave it like it was with 0.6?
18:44:30 <frosch123> well, I remember a version (probably before 0.6.0) that created multiple pre signals :)
18:45:25 <Ammler> I thought, I built prios that way.
18:46:31 <Ammler> cleaned my hd, no old revisions installed anymore...
18:47:33 <Belugas> [13:36] <Ammler> it works quite well with 0.6.3 btw. <--- good argument for stating it is a bug... hehe
18:48:04 <Ammler> no, I was just wondering, if I remember wrong.
18:48:31 <Ammler> Didn't play much lately
18:50:50 <Ammler> Belugas: IMO, there is no need to change "gameplay" there, as you can still auto signal with normal signals
18:51:13 <Belugas> it is intended that i have no opinion on da matter
18:51:45 <frosch123> so Ammler: when you drag a one-way pbs signal, shall it create normal pbs signals?
18:51:48 <Ammler> it is not a bug, just a "removed feature" ;-)
18:52:44 <Ammler> frosch123: why do you need more then one pbs signal in a row?
18:53:12 <planetmaker> frosch123: block signal drag = normal blog signal as result. PBS signal drag = PBS signal as drag, pbs one-way drag = pbs one-way drag.
18:53:12 <frosch123> oh, it shall place normal signals?
18:53:42 <Ammler> buh, I do not have real experience with pbs signals
18:53:51 <planetmaker> frosch: normal signals, if block signals are dragged - irrespecitve of which block signal
18:53:57 <frosch123> "PBS signal drag = PBS signal as drag" <- that is important though
18:53:58 <planetmaker> pbs: same type getting build
18:54:13 <frosch123> well, you can also argue about combo signals
18:54:25 <planetmaker> frosch123: that's the only thing...
18:54:38 <planetmaker> but you don't need them so much.
18:54:44 <Ammler> combo signals in a row are only for prios
18:54:53 <Ammler> which is not need for ususal gameplay, imo.
18:55:00 <planetmaker> main point though: if I drag an entry, the entry will be converted to a normal one right now.
18:55:01 <Aali> how about, whichever signal you drag, you get copies of that?
18:55:09 <Aali> i thought it was already like that
18:55:14 <planetmaker> Aali: that exact behaviour was changed...
18:55:16 <Aali> and it should be like that
18:55:37 <Ammler> Aali: why do you need 2 entry singals in a row?
18:55:41 <planetmaker> Aali: doesn't make sense for entry & exit
18:55:53 <Aali> then dont drag entry & exit signals
18:56:17 <Ammler> the whole discussion is about that :P
18:56:34 <Aali> the option should still be there if for some reason you do want to drag entry&exit
18:57:47 <Ammler> I see only need for prios.
18:59:27 <Ammler> the current situation does value the "no need" for multiple presingals
18:59:41 <Ammler> or how you call that :-)
19:00:33 <Aali> ottd shouldn't be telling me what i need or not need
19:01:35 <Ammler> then I prefer the current situation. :-)
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19:02:42 <Aali> however, if someone were to implement a separate "autosignal" tool, feel free to go wild with assumptions about what the user needs :P
19:03:02 <Ammler> well, I just wondering what that could be.
19:03:25 <Aali> just dont limit my ability to copy all kinds of signals
19:03:26 <Ammler> I told you one, have you a 2.?
19:03:37 <Splex> true, drag copy should copy
19:05:07 <Splex> should be some way to make it easy for those who want to add normal signals after presignal while keeping consistent with the command function
19:05:10 <frosch123> @openttd commit 14012
19:05:10 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Commit by peter1138 :: r14012 trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp (2008-08-07 07:48:57 UTC)
19:05:11 <DorpsGek> frosch123: -Fix (r13936): Don't copy pre-signal type when dragging signals.
19:05:38 <frosch123> someone had an oppinion about that :)
19:05:50 <Ammler> but it does not just not copy
19:05:57 <Ammler> it does also convert the 1. signal
19:06:36 <Rubidium> Ammler: would you be so kind to not mix English and German in a sentence?
19:10:20 <planetmaker> frosch123: but if I drag a pre-signal, the signal type of the signal I drag is reverted to normal.
19:10:23 <Ammler> well, the commit does more than fix copy pre-signal
19:10:32 <Ammler> it does also convert singals
19:10:47 <planetmaker> well. of that single one which you drag.
19:13:06 <Sacro> I don't want to copy pre/pbs signals
19:13:29 <Sacro> pre/pbs (controlled) signals should only be at junctions
19:14:50 <Aali> then dont copy your pre/pbs signals
19:15:01 <Aali> dont ruin the fun for the rest of us
19:16:10 <Sacro> Aali, why would you ever need to copy pre/pbs?
19:16:20 <Ammler> Sacro: he can't answer
19:16:31 <frosch123> btw. did ever someone tested odd signal densities?
19:17:22 <Rubidium> frosch123: I fear the next bugreport will be like: I wanted to replace that signal and all ones following it, but now it isn't replaced anymore
19:18:00 <frosch123> you cannot replace with autocomplete, or what do you mean?
19:18:22 <Ammler> why should auto signalling also convert signals?
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19:18:27 <Aali> which is part of the reason why it shouldn't change the type of the signal
19:19:23 <Rubidium> Ammler: because people might want to upgrade from semaphores to light signals (or whatever's the proper english term for them)?
19:19:24 <Aali> its confusing, there will always be someone who doesn't get what he expects
19:20:35 <Ammler> Aali: semaphores works like you want :-)
19:20:40 <Aali> if all copying only made copies of the signal you clicked on, that would not be a problem
19:21:01 <Aali> heh, i should start using semaphores then
19:21:16 <DorpsGek> nicfer: Zephyris was last seen in #openttd 10 weeks, 2 days, 23 hours, 33 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Zephyris> and header and footer
19:21:30 <Aali> on the other hand, i'll problably just make a patch for light signals
19:22:33 <Ammler> maybe better would be if you can't use auto signalling for presignals at all.
19:23:02 <DorpsGek> nicfer: RichK67 was last seen in #openttd 32 weeks, 2 days, 21 hours, 57 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <RichK67> gn
19:23:03 <Aali> you're still removing functionality
19:23:08 <Ammler> then you build first normal signal -> auto signal -> convert to presignal
19:23:30 <Aali> and what if you want more than one presignal?
19:23:46 <Ammler> but now you build presignal -> auto signal -> convert again to presignal
19:24:12 <Aali> now you build presignal, build regular signal, then auto signal
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19:24:58 <Aali> building a long stretch of presignals however is a real hassle
19:25:17 <Splex> build regular signal, then change the first signal to presignal
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19:26:49 <Aali> Splex: if you're okay with signalling the line while you're working on the station entrance or whatever, yes
19:28:00 <Splex> aali: im supporting what you are saying... for those who want to have normal signals after a presignal... just copy normal signals and then change the first to presignal... i agree that the tool should 'autofill' whatever signal you choose, without assuming how the user will build.
19:28:14 <Aali> I like to finish the entire station before moving on to signal the line
19:28:59 <Splex> someone could come up with a reason to copy presignals every nth space...
19:29:25 <Ammler> your solution is better than trunk, but not better than 0.6 :P
19:29:26 <Splex> if it was 100 signals... i sure wouldn't want to do that task manually
19:31:08 <Ammler> I am quite sure, peter didn't want to convert the first signal, either.
19:31:09 <Aali> entry and exit probably dont need to be copied (but you should still be able to), but combo-signals are used in relatively large numbers in prios and other non-standard signal logic
19:33:29 <Ammler> Aali: I installed 0.6 to check that, thought that you were able to drag&drop presignals in older revs
19:35:50 <Ammler> but no idea, how far you need to go back.
19:40:01 <frosch123> hmm, my patch breaks the non-autocomplete signal-dragging :s
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19:42:03 <frosch123> though that was broken/inconsistent also before :s
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19:46:11 <Ammler> frosch123: it woks here
19:47:25 <frosch123> it behaves differently depending on whether there are already signals on the start tile resp. the tiles you place the signals
19:47:56 <Ammler> never used it that way
19:49:52 <Ammler> a nice feature would be, if you drag and drop over existing signals, it should remove those and rebuild
19:50:22 <frosch123> autocomplete signals works together with the bulldozer button, but it is dangerous :)
19:51:00 <Ammler> now it does only replace those in the defined gap
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20:01:26 * benjamingoodger yawns also, you bastard
20:02:13 <frosch123> sadly you cannot tell Belugas "two hours left" these days, as it might be false :(
20:02:54 <Belugas> i've already got something like 2 hours planned for todos at home
20:03:14 <Belugas> for work at home... should I add
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20:09:53 <Prof_Frink> work@home? A distributed client for doing your job for you?
20:11:01 <frosch123> Prof_Frink: It is closely related to work4work@home@phone@3am
20:14:32 <Belugas> got my friend Metallica - The Day That Never Comes to keep me on the edge
20:19:31 * frosch123 wonders whether he shall try chrome. the music always stops when I open a grf2html output :s
20:20:22 * frosch123 could also just open it with konqueror though
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22:26:20 <planetmaker> hm... unrelated question: does anyone have an older libX11.so.6 ? Around a year or two?
22:26:51 <planetmaker> or can tell me where to retreive it? I don't want to install an old package... I just need that file.
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22:28:04 <planetmaker> that doesn't host it.
22:28:45 <Rubidium> planetmaker: extract the debian stable package with libx11.so?
22:29:14 <planetmaker> hm... yeah... I thought about that. Then I need to learn that :)
22:31:00 <planetmaker> maybe I should teach my Suse to learn dpkg
22:31:51 <Rubidium> or install alien and convert the .deb?
22:32:03 <Rubidium> or download the .rpm of a sufficiently old Suse?
22:33:01 <benjamingoodger> probably won't work, what with all the dependencies
22:33:50 <planetmaker> Rubidium: the old rpms are then likely to overwrite other files with older revisions...
22:34:37 <Rubidium> planetmaker: you can't tell it to extract it to a specific directory, e.g. /tmp like dpkg can?
22:35:06 <planetmaker> hm... maybe, but I haven't found that so far.
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22:44:36 <benjamingoodger> and my grandmother
22:45:02 <benjamingoodger> they both still run perfectly well...
22:45:06 <benjamingoodger> as does that joke
22:49:07 <planetmaker> Rubidium: indeed it works with a small detour :)
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