IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-11-04
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00:00:03 <TrueBrain> svippy: well, other people find Palin awesome (indeed scary), girls like artists, guys love Windows 7, and gay people love Monkey Island 4 ... everyone his 'sane' hobby ;)
00:00:03 <Eddi|zuHause> what he meant to say: find a girlfriend
00:00:15 <glx> svippy: you know TrueBrain owns a bot ;)
00:00:15 <Char> Rubidium: still, this is not zimbawe
00:00:17 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: tnx ;)
00:00:24 <Char> and yes, inflation is on, but it is before 2000
00:00:43 <svippy> glx: I used to. It was crap.
00:00:57 <svippy> Eddi|zuHause: If so, I won't be betting on it, if I were you.
00:01:03 <svippy> Hell, *I* wouldn't even bet on it.
00:01:10 <TrueBrain> svippy: okay, find a boyfriend
00:01:12 <TrueBrain> we don't really care
00:01:27 <svippy> I am just saying my chances are slim.
00:01:45 <TrueBrain> and yes, I was dissing Futurama
00:01:52 <svippy> TrueBrain: You cannot be serious.
00:02:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't ever stay serious when talking about futurama...
00:03:04 * benjamingoodger has probably entered the conversation at a bad time
00:03:07 <TrueBrain> I am trying to hold back, but I have to agree with Eddi|zuHause on this one .. I fail too either :)
00:03:16 <TrueBrain> benjamingoodger: is there ever such thing as a good time? :)
00:03:22 <svippy> Well, just proves how good I am, TrueBrain and Eddi|zuHause.
00:03:44 <benjamingoodger> as such I am unable to determine whether svippy is a troll or is being picked on unnecessarily
00:03:45 <TrueBrain> svippy: great in which opinion? Of the small people?
00:03:58 <TrueBrain> benjamingoodger: I still wonder about that too :)
00:04:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's not even friday
00:04:21 <svippy> TrueBrain: Obviously, the conversation of Futurama did not lead you to suspect I was quoting the very same show.
00:04:41 <TrueBrain> svippy: to 'detect' a quote, you have to be an addict
00:04:43 <TrueBrain> which clearly, I am not
00:04:54 <svippy> True, I am an addict, and my friends call it scary.
00:05:01 <svippy> And now that I think about it, it is a bit scary.
00:05:03 <TrueBrain> so ... where does the sane part come in?
00:05:16 <benjamingoodger> oh, for goodness' sake
00:05:22 <svippy> TrueBrain: I stand corrected. It what was all along did not keep me sane.
00:05:35 <svippy> I wonder what does keep me sane then?
00:05:37 <benjamingoodger> I can quote the episode title and, in many cases, number of practically any futurama quote you care to give me
00:05:42 <benjamingoodger> this does not make me insane
00:05:59 <svippy> And the title captions as well, benjamingoodger?
00:06:01 <TrueBrain> I tihnk I should now go to an other channel, and say: I cannot tolerate the other channels, NNN, I have a guy who supports Palin (scary!), a girl who's an artist (need I say more?), some guy keeps making love to Windows 7 (talk about foreplay), some guy who thinks Monkey Island 4 is a great game, and some guy loving Futurama (for heavons sake)
00:06:27 <benjamingoodger> svippy: only for one episode.
00:06:28 <TrueBrain> benjamingoodger: clearly you missed a part of this beautiful conversation
00:06:41 <benjamingoodger> TrueBrain: I already said that
00:06:53 <benjamingoodger> svippy: my point is that I am not insane for knowing all of this
00:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i could not name a single episode, let alone arrange them in any order
00:07:03 <svippy> I don't consider myself insane, benjamingoodger.
00:07:04 <TrueBrain> I wouldn't even know what it is about :)
00:07:18 <benjamingoodger> well, I don't consider you insane either
00:07:33 <benjamingoodger> well, that's to be determined, but I don't consider you insane due to futurama obsession
00:07:35 <svippy> Well, well. Seems like we've settled something here tonight.
00:07:37 <Eddi|zuHause> says one crazy person to the other
00:07:46 <TrueBrain> svippy: no, you just agree'd with benjamingoodger on something
00:07:52 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause and I still think you are insane
00:07:57 <svippy> And that is not settling something?
00:08:06 <svippy> Still? You had settled that earlier?
00:08:13 <TrueBrain> we just established that
00:08:14 <Eddi|zuHause> but i am not denying it :p
00:08:19 <benjamingoodger> do calm down, everyone
00:08:23 <svippy> Damn politician, Eddi|zuHause!
00:08:40 <TrueBrain> benjamingoodger: don't take everything too seriously :)
00:08:51 <svippy> benjamingoodger: I just mentioned I ran a Futurama Wiki, and suddenly I am insane.
00:09:11 <benjamingoodger> I have been patiently struggling to start a wiki for some time :)
00:09:28 <svippy> Why would you start a competing wiki?
00:09:31 <TrueBrain> svippy: no, what makes you insane, is that you can't tolerate people who love Windows 7, but we should tolerate you loving Futurama?
00:09:35 <benjamingoodger> not a competing wiki
00:09:55 <svippy> No, TrueBrain, I cannot tolerate *this specific guy* who loves Windows 7.
00:10:01 <svippy> I have met him in Real Life.
00:10:06 <benjamingoodger> this wiki is to document the goings-on of a separate canon I propose to establish with my first book, for purposes of allowing people to make creative-commons stuff using it
00:10:36 <benjamingoodger> yes, I intend to write others afterward
00:10:44 <svippy> And your first book be about?
00:10:57 <benjamingoodger> well, generally, it's about politics and economics
00:11:14 <svippy> A lot different from my book.
00:11:16 <benjamingoodger> but it takes the form of a black comedy
00:11:18 <svippy> Which is about space and the future.
00:11:36 <TrueBrain> and your book comes off the shelves, and benjamingoodger write his own
00:11:54 <benjamingoodger> it's meant to be funny, yes
00:11:56 <svippy> No, TrueBrain, I am actually writing it.
00:12:08 <TrueBrain> a summary of Futurama, I guess?
00:12:11 <benjamingoodger> but the characters deal with economic issues
00:12:17 <svippy> What you think I am, stupid, TrueBrain?
00:12:25 <svippy> That ought to be enough.
00:12:31 <svippy> Write a book about Futurama.
00:12:42 <TrueBrain> svippy: no, the words 'scary' and 'insane' only passed by I believe
00:12:44 <svippy> I mean come on!? I might as well just print the wiki.
00:13:14 <svippy> Anyways, TrueBrain, we were talking about benjamingoodger's book, not mine.
00:13:20 <TrueBrain> benjamingoodger: can we get a pre-copy when it is done?
00:13:39 <TrueBrain> svippy: you started about your book
00:13:54 <benjamingoodger> TrueBrain: well, sure, it will be available online as creative commons. but I will be asking for donations toward a planned film version
00:13:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i should start a book...
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00:14:11 <benjamingoodger> svippy: email me at benjamingoodger*at*flesbooks.com when your book is complete and I will personally ensure that you receive a high royalty rate if you wish to publish with my company
00:14:19 <svippy> TrueBrain: I just mentioned it, you made me seem silly.
00:14:21 <benjamingoodger> yes, everyone write books
00:14:24 <benjamingoodger> lots of books
00:14:35 <svippy> What is your company, benjamingoodger?
00:14:39 <svippy> And where is it based?
00:14:51 <benjamingoodger> FLES Books, based in the United Kingdom
00:14:55 <TrueBrain> I can only write boring books ;)
00:15:00 <svippy> Mmm... United Kingdom.
00:15:03 <benjamingoodger> TrueBrain: your book can be boring if you like
00:15:14 <svippy> Good thing, benjamingoodger, my book is written in pure British English.
00:15:23 <benjamingoodger> svippy: we only work online though, so please notify my email address above
00:15:49 <benjamingoodger> well, we don't discriminate against other languages...
00:16:01 <svippy> You should, against American English, benjamingoodger.
00:16:06 <benjamingoodger> Rubidium: nice, isn't it :D
00:16:11 <svippy> Ooooh, it tickles me when I see 'colour' spelt wrong.
00:16:29 <benjamingoodger> Rubidium: the webapp is in final stages of testing, I promise you
00:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause> svippy: there is not even an authority that can divide the two apart
00:16:49 <TrueBrain> benjamingoodger: btw, I was serious, I have a high interest in what you are writing :)
00:16:49 <benjamingoodger> Eddi|zuHause: except the Webster and Oxford dictionaries
00:17:06 <TrueBrain> (just to underline the rest is /me being bored ;))
00:17:08 <benjamingoodger> TrueBrain: ah, in that case, permission to PM?
00:17:32 <svippy> TrueBrain: On the contrary to my book, which your assumption about has already dismayed it entirely.
00:17:44 <svippy> Oh, boy, maybe I shouldn't write it at all now!
00:17:55 <benjamingoodger> calm down, svippy
00:17:56 <TrueBrain> svippy: you just made a bad entry, and made yourself a really easy target :)
00:18:05 <benjamingoodger> perhaps if you told us about it
00:18:07 <TrueBrain> but I will refrain myself from dissing you any further :)
00:18:08 <svippy> But you are sweet, TrueBrain.
00:18:35 <svippy> That's why they call them sweets in Britain.
00:19:11 <svippy> benjamingoodger: I also know a scary bit of difference between British and American English. Despite being dyslexic.
00:19:36 <svippy> Ooooh, he's a funny one. :)
00:19:47 <TrueBrain> no, I always tell peopple that, then they understand immeaditly what you mean :)
00:20:08 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause sees them flying...
00:21:06 * Eddi|zuHause never understood why the english people can't speak a "p" before a "t" or an "s"
00:21:35 <Eddi|zuHause> in many greek words, the germans say the "p" while it is silent in english
00:22:29 <svippy> Fear not, Eddi|zuHause.
00:22:34 <benjamingoodger> you say "pa-neumatic"?
00:22:47 <svippy> A campaign in the UK is moving Latin words out of English, Eddi|zuHause.
00:22:58 <svippy> On the grounds that "e.g." could be confused with "eggs".
00:23:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, we germans speak the "p" also in "pneumatisch"
00:23:54 <benjamingoodger> without e.g. where will we get our exemplary gratuities?
00:24:09 <svippy> I dunno, people use "i.e." thinking it stands for "in example".
00:24:10 <TrueBrain> people here are trying to ban english words from the dutch language ... the alternatives they bring are so much fun :)
00:24:13 <svippy> Which btw, doesn't make sense either.
00:24:20 <Tefad> isn't ie 'such that' or similar
00:24:20 <svippy> What the hell is "in example"?
00:24:27 <svippy> I know, Tefad, id est.
00:24:34 <TrueBrain> svippy: from german/dutch, that does make sense ;)
00:24:51 <Tefad> so why not get rid of all the latin phrases in law and science?
00:24:57 <svippy> e.g. is exempli gradia.
00:25:05 <Eddi|zuHause> svippy: we germans have a proper german abbreviation for "zum Beispiel"
00:25:16 <Tefad> i think the problem is lack of education
00:25:25 <svippy> I am no fan of plain English.
00:25:28 <benjamingoodger> the problem is a lack of common sense
00:25:33 <svippy> I spell mêlée with the diacritics.
00:25:52 <benjamingoodger> people feel more intelligent by saying "your present interlocutor" than they do by saying "I"
00:26:05 <Tefad> i know people that say mee-lee
00:26:44 <svippy> Naïveté is one of my favourites.
00:27:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never had a conversation where i felt the need to use the word "mêlée"
00:27:17 <svippy> glx: But also exists in English.
00:27:22 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: just talk about rugby
00:27:23 *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
00:27:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never had the need to have a conversation about rugby either
00:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause> svippy: that'd still require the D&D game to be held in english, which is rather unlikely
00:29:36 <svippy> You guys translate everything in order to be as bad as English as possible.
00:29:58 <benjamingoodger> svippy: I have college tomorrow, but do please email me about your book if you want my company to publish it... we quote 70% as a royalty rate*, which at a very rough estimate is about 3€ per copy
00:30:01 <svippy> Watching Futurama in French or German is not my cup of tea.
00:30:04 <benjamingoodger> good night, everybody
00:30:17 <benjamingoodger> oh, and americans:
00:30:33 <benjamingoodger> if you don't vote tomorrow, and mccain wins, I will hold you personally responsible
00:30:38 <svippy> I'll consider it, benjamingoodger. But I am still far from getting to publishing stages.
00:30:59 <svippy> To translate what benjamingoodger wrote, "Don't fsck this up, America!"
00:31:13 <Eddi|zuHause> someone said that mccains program sounds actually better for europe
00:31:13 <TrueBrain> night benjamingoodger
00:31:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but nobody listens to what politicians say anyway
00:31:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it's all about charisma
00:31:59 <svippy> Eddi|zuHause: You know, Conservative Europeans.
00:32:06 <svippy> O_O Some guy said something.
00:32:12 <svippy> Better print it on the front pages.
00:33:09 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
00:33:11 <Eddi|zuHause> well, for the purpose of my statement, it is irrelevant who said it or if it was actually true...
00:33:21 *** benjamingoodger has quit IRC
00:33:59 *** benjamingoodger has joined #openttd
00:34:58 <svippy> Dropped you a mail, benjamingoodger.
00:35:12 <benjamingoodger> thank you, sir
00:35:16 * benjamingoodger is away, however
00:35:43 <benjamingoodger> thank you for your email
00:35:52 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, from what i have seen of mccain, he seems like a sensible person, and as soon as mister gwb is gone, the low point should be over, no matter who is next
00:36:23 <SmatZ> I like Palin, she's sexy
00:36:34 <TrueBrain> but damn, she is stupid
00:36:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i know nothing really about palin
00:39:46 <welshdragon> is nachname surname?
00:39:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the only thing i know is that tina fey played palin a sketch, and then palin played fey in a sketch
00:40:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, welshdragon
00:41:18 <welshdragon> or at least tell me what the cell titles are :P
00:42:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and i can't imagine swiss pages not being available in at least half a dozen languages...
00:43:33 *** benjamingoodger has quit IRC
00:44:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean they have 4 native languages anyway...
00:44:40 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i can't see the page you are seeing... it tells me i have no products selected
00:45:23 <welshdragon> the chechout's still in german :(
00:45:42 <welshdragon> yeah, it's because it uses cookies.... bastard
00:56:12 <welshdragon> i'll have to wait for my Schrägglas
01:02:38 <welshdragon> that was fast o_O
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01:14:32 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
01:15:43 <SpComb> Current date: 37686-10-19
01:16:59 <SpComb> well, grab 0.5.3 and join said game...
01:17:09 <SpComb> but it's too late now, I just shut it down
01:17:42 <SpComb> hmm... forgot to take a look at how much CPU time they had accumulated
01:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never had a release build since 0.4.0.1
01:17:51 <SpComb> might have reached into the thousands of hours by now
01:18:07 <TrueBrain> why would you use 0.5.3 ...
01:19:01 <SpComb> # Uptime | System Boot up
01:19:04 <SpComb> ----------------------------+---------------------------------------------------
01:19:07 <SpComb> -> 1 356 days, 10:46:57 | Linux 2.6.18-5-amd64 Tue Nov 13 16:31:54 2007
01:19:13 <SpComb> hmm... only nine more days until a full year...
01:19:28 <SpComb> well, as someone on thedailywtf forums just said, there's 356 days to a year
01:19:46 <Eddi|zuHause> 2:19am an 8 Tage 12:03, 18 Benutzer, Durchschnittslast: 0,06, 0,21, 0,32
01:20:11 * SpComb just shut it down as well
01:20:33 * SpComb has 577 days on his other server
01:20:46 <TrueBrain> 110 days on an other ..
01:20:51 <TrueBrain> 110 days ago we moved to a new DC..
01:21:03 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i have a faulty disk, and my system is much more stable since i realised i still had swap on that disk :p
01:21:46 <glx> how did it take for you to realise that?
01:21:48 <SmatZ> my server lock ups for some unknown reason
01:21:58 <SmatZ> temperature is normal, nothing is going on
01:22:01 <TrueBrain> 02:21:54 up 333 days, 22:17, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
01:22:06 <TrueBrain> 333 days .. hmm .. :)
01:22:09 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: kernel panic?
01:22:20 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: yeah, that's the same symptom as my problem
01:22:31 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: I don't know, I am running X there (it is used as TV sometimes)
01:22:40 <SmatZ> but keyboard doesn't blink
01:22:44 <TrueBrain> 03:22:28 up 3:23, 4 users, load average: 0.01, 0.07, 0.08 <- Hahahahaha :) (my working station :p)
01:23:25 <TrueBrain> anyway, good night to you all :)
01:23:34 <SmatZ> 02:23:22 up 5 days, 5:58, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.03
01:23:35 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: quite long, i'm afraid
01:23:52 <Eddi|zuHause> on average, the system ran for a week for the past few months
01:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it could be faulty RAM as well
01:37:01 <rubyruy> i am trying to edit nshp_ecs.grf (it updates newships to work with ecs) so i can fix the Bulk Freighter not accepting Fish... is this actually much harder then it sounds? :/
01:39:23 <Aali> thats very simple actually, just modify the refit mask
01:39:34 <Aali> unless there's a cargo translation table
01:39:36 <rubyruy> because you'd think then that every cargo ID would have to be mentioned in the nfo file at some point... but for instance 1D (Fiber corps) shows up nowhere in the nfo
01:40:07 <Aali> you can use cargo classes, for example
01:40:17 <Aali> and the refit mask is just a bitfield, not a list
01:40:31 <rubyruy> but wouldn't a line somewhere have ot add 1D to whatever cargo class at least?
01:40:40 <rubyruy> oh shoo ... that could be in one of the ecs base grfs right?
01:40:44 <Aali> cargo classes are a property of the cargo
01:41:52 <Aali> either way, try just flipping the listed bit in action 0, property 1D
01:42:25 <rubyruy> like by adding a new line?
01:42:26 <Aali> if that doesn't work you can look for the cargo translation table
01:42:40 <rubyruy> where could i look up cargo classes for ecs?
01:42:46 <Aali> you're not very comfortable with editing nfo files, eh?
01:43:00 <rubyruy> no this is the first time i'm trying it
01:43:01 <Aali> cargo classes and which cargoes belong to which classes are listed on the wiki
01:43:31 <rubyruy> also not very comfortable with binary data formats in general... never thought i'd ever say this but it sure would be nice to be working with an XML based format ;)
01:44:18 <rubyruy> that's just nshp_ecs.grf
01:44:35 <Aali> oh, right, ships, i was thinking of trains
01:44:54 <Aali> let me just look that up and i'll fix it for you
01:45:44 <rubyruy> if you can point me in the right direction that would be great too - i'd love to be able to work with these things on my own
01:45:54 <Aali> that long string of upper case characters is a cargo translation table btw
01:46:17 <rubyruy> yeah i was actually going to ask - isn't that defined in the ecs base grfs somewhere?
01:46:47 <Aali> cargo translation tables only apply to the vehicles defined in the same grf
01:47:39 <rubyruy> also i did look up action 00 08 but i just found out it can set 'global variables' didn't find out what exactly that entails
01:47:45 <rubyruy> i assume the translation table is stored in such variable?
01:48:15 <rubyruy> is "01 20 00 09" the 'name' ?
01:48:21 <rubyruy> i guess it would be a location
01:49:27 <rubyruy> or wait is the format of action 08 the same as action D ?
01:50:51 <Aali> 20 is the size of the table
01:50:58 <Aali> 09 is the code for cargo translation
01:53:18 <Aali> what does this ship accept?
01:53:39 <Aali> because i assume you dont have the vehicle ID
01:55:15 <rubyruy> so the line says set 01 properties of size 20 of variable 09 (cargo table)... what does the 00 mean?
01:55:35 <Aali> 20 00 is actually a word
02:00:15 <rubyruy> hey so if i read that table right fiber (FICR) is still ID 1D
02:00:43 <Aali> it seems that you're using pikka's construction vector though
02:00:57 <Aali> so all of the cargoes wont be correct
02:01:02 <rubyruy> wait how can you tell from just the grf? :p
02:01:25 <rubyruy> so where does fiber actually get added to the ship?
02:01:31 <Aali> that cargo translation table isn't used at all though
02:01:44 <rubyruy> because of the construction vector?
02:01:47 <Aali> the only thing that matters is the cargo translation table in newships
02:02:01 <Aali> but i assume they're the same
02:02:10 <rubyruy> i can check - i have it decompiled
02:03:00 <Aali> you should also check for action0 properties 18 and 19
02:03:00 <rubyruy> errr wait a sec but the newships cargo table won't have the ECS goods in it will it?
02:03:29 <Aali> i think someone just assumed that cargo translation table would work anyway
02:03:57 <Aali> but i actually moved around some of the cargoes, so i noticed it wasn't working ;)
02:04:33 <Aali> did you run grf2html on newships?
02:04:54 <Aali> that should make it easy to find refit masks/property 18/19
02:06:11 <rubyruy> like editing newships.grf directly rather then the ecs fix?
02:06:44 <Aali> nah, but you have to know if property 18/19 are set
02:06:51 <Aali> they change the meaning of the refit mask
02:07:19 <Aali> property 18/19 of course being refittable and non-refittable cargo classes
02:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> 34 * 10 00 02 01 01 05 11 00 70 00 00 <- take this line for example
02:09:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it sets the refit mask of the ship with ID 05
02:09:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the last 4 bytes is the refit mask
02:09:55 <Eddi|zuHause> each bit refers to an entry in the cargo translation table
02:10:12 <Aali> there is no cargo translation table though
02:10:20 <Aali> or, there is one, but its never used
02:11:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that may be true, but still you just need to flip the appropriate bit to enable the refit
02:13:28 <Aali> unless cargo classes are set
02:13:52 <Aali> they probably aren't though, since then you wouldn't need an ECS adapter
02:13:57 <Eddi|zuHause> newships is very old
02:14:16 <Eddi|zuHause> long before cargo classes and translation tables were introduced
02:14:24 <Aali> rubyruy: but now that you have newships in html form, you can just look up the vehicle ID
02:15:04 <rubyruy> well i'm not sure how actually :p
02:15:08 <rubyruy> oh wait form newships duh
02:15:39 <Aali> the number will be your ID
02:16:24 <Eddi|zuHause> there aren't that many ships :p
02:17:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the biggest problem with flipping a bit is finding the right bit to flip :)
02:17:32 <Aali> there's a nice table of all the bits
02:17:51 <rubyruy> so this is my line here ? 37 * 10 00 02 01 01 08 11 42 81 7B 78
02:18:05 <rubyruy> the one setting the refit mask for the bulk freighter
02:18:32 <rubyruy> ok where are these bitmasks specced?
02:18:47 <Aali> its in the cargo types table
02:18:50 <Eddi|zuHause> 42 81 6V 78 is the bitmask
02:19:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the "2" is the lowest nibble, 1=PASS, 2=COAL, 4=MAIL, 8=OIL_
02:20:21 <Eddi|zuHause> so this ship can load coal, but not passengers, mail or oil
02:21:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the 4 is the next highest nibbles, defining the next 4 cargos
02:21:18 <Eddi|zuHause> then the 1 is the next higher, then the 8
02:22:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the values are always 1,2,4,8 you add the ones that are allowed to be refit, so 7=1+2+4 meaning 3 cargos can be refit, and the 4th not
02:26:03 <Eddi|zuHause> next step: open the grf defining the cargo, and find out which ID the cargo has there
02:26:28 <rubyruy> i think i need a more detailed description of the bitmask... i can't quite follow your description
02:26:30 <Aali> nah, just pull it from the ecs wiki page
02:29:21 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, more detailed. the bitmask is: "42 81 7B 78". these are bytes (8 bit) is in little endian notation, but we split it now in nibbles (4 bit) and rearrange them with the lowest nibble first
02:29:56 <Eddi|zuHause> now we split each nibble into bits
02:30:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the lowest bit first again
02:30:40 <Eddi|zuHause> 0100 0010 1000 0001 1101 1110 0001 1110
02:30:56 <Aali> and the table lists fish as 4000
02:31:02 <Eddi|zuHause> now these bits are exactly in the same order as the translation table above
02:31:08 <Aali> so we add 4 to 8, which makes C
02:31:21 <Aali> and the new mask is 7 8 7 B C 1 4 2
02:31:39 <Aali> or \dx787BC142 in nfospeak
02:33:22 <rubyruy> so .... 2 means "Starting with coal"... and then the 0010 refers to the refitability of coal mail oil and livestock respectively?
02:33:31 <rubyruy> er no that can't be right
02:33:55 <rubyruy> or do we just start from the beginning?
02:34:20 <rubyruy> so the first "0100" means -> PASS: NO, COAL: YES, MAIL: NO, OIL: NO
02:34:43 <rubyruy> also is Aali right about the whole thing being flipped?
02:34:46 <Aali> its really 0010, but yes
02:35:09 <Eddi|zuHause> PASS COAL MAIL OIL_ - 0100
02:35:12 <Eddi|zuHause> LVST GOOD GRAI WOOD - 0010
02:35:12 <Eddi|zuHause> IORE STEL VALU PAPR - 1000
02:35:13 <Eddi|zuHause> FOOD FRUT FISH WOOL -0001
02:35:15 <Eddi|zuHause> POTA SAND GLAS WDPR - 1101
02:35:16 <Eddi|zuHause> DYES FERT OLSD RFPR - 1110
02:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> VEHI PETR BRCK SULP - 0001
02:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> CMNT FICR LIME TOUR - 1110
02:35:21 <Eddi|zuHause> this is the refit mask
02:36:15 <Eddi|zuHause> so the possible cargos now are COAL, GRAI, IORE, WOOL, POTA, SAND, WDPR, DYES, FERT, OLSD, SULP, CMNT, FICR, LIME
02:38:38 <Eddi|zuHause> so to add FISH now, you flip the 0001 to 0011, which changes the value from 8 to 8+4 = 12 = C
02:39:20 <Aali> thats just confusing though
02:39:27 <Aali> you never write numbers like that
02:39:51 <Eddi|zuHause> why not? just because you are too narrow minded?
02:40:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i said multiple times that my notation is the lowest bit first
02:40:25 <Eddi|zuHause> because that notation fits exactly with the table, where you start with the lowest index
02:40:26 <Aali> i'm narrow minded because i want the rest of the world to understand what i'm writing? :P
02:40:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't care about "the rest of the world"
02:48:32 <rubyruy> why does CERE not show up in the cargo table list?
02:48:41 <Eddi|zuHause> <rubyruy> also is Aali right about the whole thing being flipped? <- in maths, there is no "right" or "wrong"... you define it one way or another, and then stick with it, as long as it suits your needs best
02:48:41 <rubyruy> it does end up being an accepted good
02:49:16 <Aali> rubyruy: the cargo translation table has no effect, i thought we went over this
02:49:39 <rubyruy> oh right... but where is it getting the values form then?
02:49:48 <Eddi|zuHause> rubyruy: chances are, cereals just happen to overwrite one of the values from that list
02:49:48 <rubyruy> it can't be newships.grf
02:50:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it's defined in the appropriate newindustries grf
02:50:39 <Aali> cereals is ID 06 without a translation table
02:51:01 <Eddi|zuHause> which happens to be GRAI in this list
02:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so all vehicles that previously accepted grain, now accept cereals instead
02:51:42 <Aali> once again, that list has no effect
02:52:13 <Aali> grain isn't defined at all in ECS
02:52:37 <Aali> and it doesn't have to be ID 6 in vanilla although it probably is
02:52:43 <rubyruy> i am still confused a but about the order differences
02:53:12 <Eddi|zuHause> you can write anything backwards, if that fits you better
02:53:14 <rubyruy> so grfcodec spits out 42 81 7B 78
02:53:27 <rubyruy> grf2html calls it 787B8142
02:53:46 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the first is called little endian, the second is called big endian
02:53:50 <Aali> rubyruy: thats because its in little-endian
02:53:57 <rubyruy> ok so which is way does the game read it?
02:54:06 <Aali> the second is still little endian, but its reading the whole 4 bytes
02:54:16 <rubyruy> i.e. does 7 or 4 correspond to the first 4 goods?
02:54:48 <Aali> +is the first four goods
02:54:48 <rubyruy> 2 then 4 then 1 then 8 ?
02:54:56 <rubyruy> i.e. the second one reversed?
02:54:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the 2 stands for the first 4 goods. it appears in the end in the big endian notation
02:55:25 <Eddi|zuHause> you can now either reverse the bits, or reverse the translation table
02:55:37 <Eddi|zuHause> to make the bits match the translation table
02:55:40 <rubyruy> should i end up with this? "0010", "0100", "0001", "1000", "1011", "0111", "1000", "0111"]
02:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i chose the first option
02:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i now also reversed the bits
02:56:11 <Eddi|zuHause> so 0010 becomes 0100
02:56:56 <rubyruy> ok i think that looks right finally
02:57:22 <rubyruy> ruby code i used (because i'm useless at bit ops yes you may laugh at me) refit_mask = "787B8142".reverse.scan(/./).map{|h| h.to_i(16).to_s(2).rjust(4,'0').reverse}
02:57:42 <Eddi|zuHause> that looks awful :p
02:57:51 <Aali> just look at the table on the wiki
02:58:01 <Aali> add up the numbers under bit value
02:59:05 <Eddi|zuHause> table schnable... don't rely on someone else's knowledge if you can derive it yourself
02:59:05 <rubyruy> that doesn't help me with decomposing an existing mask though :p
02:59:19 <rubyruy> i can see Eddi is a purist :)
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02:59:57 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i'm just faster at decoding this bitmask than finding the place where the table might hide ;)
03:01:23 <Aali> if you're used to counting in hex you can work it out yourself in 2 seconds, yes
03:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i went through that exact same procedure when i adjusted dbxl_ecs.grf for PBI cargos
03:02:20 <Eddi|zuHause> since i had no way of transporting clay
03:02:51 <rubyruy> the bitmasks works out to the following cargos being accepted for the bulk freighter: 1, 6, 8, f, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 1b, 1c, 1d, 1e
03:02:59 <rubyruy> which includes among other things potash and sand
03:03:07 <rubyruy> none of which are actually listed in the freighter in ttd
03:03:12 <rubyruy> is this because i use that construction set?
03:03:29 <Aali> i've made tropic refurbishment set carry ECS cargoes
03:03:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the cargos will only show up if an industry is defined that produces them
03:04:45 <Aali> i'm actually working on that now, but the refit masks are done, just have to set the right sprite groups for everything
03:04:46 <rubyruy> so it would vary with climate? or can it not show up if that industry is simply not on the map yet?
03:05:06 <Aali> rubyruy: new chemical vector doesn't have potash
03:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's about which industries are defined, not which industries exist
03:05:40 <Eddi|zuHause> if you loaded a grf that provides a sand pit, then sand should show up as cargo
03:06:00 <Aali> sand does show up as a cargo
03:06:15 <rubyruy> so it is i'm just blind :p
03:06:30 <rubyruy> i think that solves most misteries now :)
03:06:49 <rubyruy> Aali: do i still need to look into that action 18 business you were mentionining a while back?
03:07:07 <rubyruy> ok so just add fish to the bitmask and hope for the best eh?
03:07:10 <Aali> that was just in case the original grf defined it, but it doesn't
03:07:30 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, newships is very old
03:08:01 <Eddi|zuHause> dbset also, which is why these extension grfs were necessary
03:08:22 <Eddi|zuHause> as no new versions are expected to be released in the near future
03:24:40 <rubyruy> so i changed 81 to 83 and now the grf shows up blue in the settings :(
03:25:44 <rubyruy> blue means not loaded right?
03:25:48 <Aali> its supposed to be C1, not 83, but that shouldn't cause anything like that
03:26:08 <Aali> did you press apply changes?
03:29:22 <Eddi|zuHause> does the change appear in the build vehicle window?
03:33:55 <rubyruy> must have been something i did and forgot about
03:34:01 <rubyruy> i redecoded and encoded the original
03:34:31 <rubyruy> if i were to edit this further to add tourists to the passenger ships is it worth putting up somewhere ya figure?
03:39:13 <Eddi|zuHause> you should not just take someone else's grf, modify it, and redistribute it
03:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you should at least talk to the original author
03:39:50 <Eddi|zuHause> which in this case is Michael Blunck
03:52:21 <Sacro> banshee is using 790MiB of RAM
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05:12:12 <rubyruy> YAY i managed to make the newships tankers refittable now!
05:14:25 <rubyruy> hmm i wonder how to make the ferries behave
05:14:44 <rubyruy> is it possible to have a ship accept passengers OR tourists in any proportion?
05:17:11 <rubyruy> actually for that matter how do you set multiple cargo types per ship
05:17:43 <rubyruy> i see the default ferry has the 'cargo slot' property (0C) set to 00 (Passengers) - where does it's mail capacity come from?
05:19:26 <rubyruy> oh nvm it only carriers passengers
05:19:34 <rubyruy> do only airplanes get multiple cargo types?
05:23:52 <rubyruy> refitaable is probably sufficient
05:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> airplanes are two vehicles
05:38:27 <Eddi|zuHause> the passengers are transported in the plane, and the mail in the shadow of the plane
05:50:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well, just like a train with a passenger wagon and a mail wagon
05:50:34 <rubyruy> oh god damn it... the ECS patch for the US set is broken as well
05:50:53 <rubyruy> tourists can ride mineral hoppers and the tanker can't transport refined products
05:51:15 <rubyruy> what is ECS suppose to be played with anyway grumblegrumble
05:51:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it isn't... it's beta :p
06:01:22 <De_Ghosty> what's wrong with riding the mineral hopper?
06:13:03 <George> Aali: I'd also suggest fix New ships GRF directly instead of fixing ECS adapter
06:14:05 <George> As for transporting wrong cargo in the wagon - shouldn't it be reported to vehicles set author?
06:15:04 <George> As for ECS adapters, it is very hard to make them work 100% correctly. It is much easier to change the GRF itself.
06:42:27 <rubyruy> i've been editing the adapters so far *shrug*
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07:07:48 <rubyruy> oh this is funny... the US set works perfectly WITHOUT the adapter
07:09:16 <rubyruy> i can finally play :p
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07:38:49 <AgentLeMan> hello, everys body :o9
07:39:25 <AgentLeMan> im having kinda a problem with my feederservice (im trying to explain it better this time :o) )
07:39:39 <AgentLeMan> but first.... is anyone there?
08:04:52 <AgentLeMan> but as usual in IRC, not always minds, as many are idling around.
08:07:05 <AgentLeMan> are you then here, petern?
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13:56:32 <Yexo> petern: is there a reason that vehicle groups names need to be unique between all groups instead of only between the groups of one player (or even per vehicle type per player)?
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14:05:42 <SmatZ> Yexo: it has been discussed ; problem may arise when you buy a company
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14:05:52 <SmatZ> then the group would need to be renamed, removed or whatever
14:06:10 <SmatZ> but yes, I think the current system is needlessly restrictive
14:06:32 <SmatZ> but nobody has complained so far
14:08:51 <Yexo> It's a bit of a problem when starting my AI, since it always tries to create a group "Small planes", and only one of the AIs will succeed, the others end up with "Group 2"
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14:29:16 <Char> a train cannot crash with itself
14:29:25 <Char> if you manage to get a train onto a circular path
14:29:31 <Char> where it would crash with itself
14:29:34 <Char> it will be there forever
14:29:50 <Char> you cannot get it off the circular path anymore
14:30:09 <Char> cause all the circular path is occupied and you cannot build a way out
14:30:32 <ln-> that's when you need to call chuck norris.
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14:32:58 <Char> cause you cannot get the train on the perfect circular path in the first place
14:33:03 <Char> you need to have an entry
14:33:10 <Char> which you can later use as an exit as well
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14:33:45 <th1ngwath> you can remove it :-)
14:34:09 <Char> cause there will be a train on it
14:34:26 <Char> sorry ln for my imperfect english
14:34:52 <Rubidium> Char: just ignore ln, he's annoying anyways
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14:36:11 <thingwath> but the train would have to turn around
14:36:43 <thingwath> to leave the circle
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16:02:26 <Eddi|zuHause> <SmatZ> Yexo: it has been discussed ; problem may arise when you buy a company <- what speaks against prefixing the name with the company name of the old company in that case?
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16:04:23 <Aali> or just renaming any conflicts
16:04:31 <Aali> still, someone has to code it
16:05:30 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: the maximum length of the names does
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16:07:46 <Yexo> Maybe just deleting all groups from the buyed company is a solution
16:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that seems a tiny bit radical...
16:08:34 <Yexo> buying companies isn't possible in multiplayer anyway and the current ai doesn't use groups. NoAI AIs can (and do) use groups, but the player may have his own view on groups
16:09:23 <SmatZ> I think it would be best to name groups (and vehicles) "SmallGroup (2)" or so if needed
16:09:29 <SmatZ> only when names conflict
16:09:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but when you take over a company, you usually do not throw away that company's infrastructure and middle management, but slowly integrate it
16:09:51 <SmatZ> it doesn't matter it is longer than MAX_GROUP_NAME_LENGTH
16:11:50 <Yexo> SmatZ: can having different (but both custom) names for groups/vehicles on the server and on clients lead to desyncs?
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16:13:16 <Yexo> good, otherwise FS#1923 might give even more problems
16:14:57 <DaleStan> Belugas: For houses/industry tiles, George wants recolor mode 3 (bits 14&15 of the sprite number both set) to mean "do not draw this sprite in transparent mode". Thoughts?
16:15:13 <DaleStan> Could probably be added to stations too.
16:19:44 <Belugas> DaleStan: i understand what you are proposing. not sure how easily it can be done, since we are translatin i load bits 14 and 15 meaning to our own representation
16:20:40 <Belugas> the consideration i have would rather be about user reactions: Would they consider it a bug that some of the objects on the map do not follow the transparent/invisible mode they requested?
16:21:01 <DaleStan> That's already the case with bit 31.
16:23:36 <DaleStan> That aside, the requested behaviour is already possible, by testing variable 1B (IIRC). This change would just make it easier.
16:23:55 <DaleStan> ... I'm not sure whether that's an argument for or against, actually.
16:26:37 <Belugas> well... for sure, using 14 and 15 for something different simply mens that 14 and 15 and no longer separate flags, but are part of a new meaning, i think
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16:31:53 <Belugas> oh god.. i got it in reverse...
16:32:04 <DaleStan> I think it should be pretty easy on my end.
16:32:25 <Belugas> i tough it was "do not hide this sprite" instead...
16:32:56 <Belugas> i've got to take a look during my luunch hour
16:33:14 <Belugas> i think it might be easy too, not sure though
16:33:16 <frosch123> "TTDPatch will always keep variables 8E and 8F in sync with 93" <- what does that mean, or can I find the answer in the logs?
16:33:19 <DaleStan> We already have that -- bit 30 (which is what I meant when I said "bit 31".)
16:37:18 <DaleStan> frosch123: When an industry is created, vars 8E and 8F are set to "var9E * industryprod1rates[industry.type] / 16" and "var9E * industryprod2rates[industry.type] / 16", respectively (clamped to 0..FF, and with halves rounded up). TTDPatch preserves this through all changes of var9E.
16:38:26 <frosch123> ok, so they are recomputed
16:40:06 <DaleStan> Our code is at patches/newindu.asm:6020-6026 and :6045-6053. esi points to the industry, ebx is the industry id, and edi points to var 9E.
16:41:57 <DaleStan> But I didn't copy that from TTD's industry initialization code, so it could have slightly different behaviour than TTD.
16:43:05 <frosch123> Thanks, I read the wiki as if they were also incremented and decremented, which did not make a lot of sense :)
16:45:09 <DaleStan> The first incarnation did exactly that, and Csaboka told me that no, that's not right.
16:45:24 <batti5> if (ind->produced_cargo[i] != CT_INVALID && GetCargo(ind->produced_cargo[i])->label == 'WOOD') return true;, this gives a warning = station_cmd.cpp:161:90: warning: multi-character character constant in station_cmd any ideas?
16:46:39 <frosch123> but despite of that, testing a cargolabel does not make a lot of sense
16:47:04 <DaleStan> Translate 'WOOD' to an integer. Or a named constant. (#define CARGOLABEL_WOOD <whatever>)
16:47:53 <frosch123> and make it endian aware :)
16:50:21 <DaleStan> <whatever> being 0x444F4F57 or 0x574F4F44, depending on endianness.
16:50:44 <glx> anyway better use cargoclass
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16:53:14 <Eddi|zuHause> batti5: i can immediately point out 3 flaws in there
16:53:15 <frosch123> DaleStan, Belugas: var 1B is not supported because of desyncs
16:54:11 <Eddi|zuHause> 1) strings must be enclosed in ""
16:54:26 <batti5> <Eddi|zuHause> can you fixit?
16:54:39 <Eddi|zuHause> 2) == does not compare strings, but compares addresses of strings
16:55:12 <Eddi|zuHause> 3) comparing the lables is bad, compare IDs instead, where you previously stored somewhere the ID of the wood cargo
16:55:12 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: typedef uint32 CargoLabel;
16:55:21 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: 'WOOD' is an integer
16:55:29 <frosch123> 'DOOW' is alsa an integer
16:56:12 <batti5> all i tryed is to add a couple of stationnames
17:03:12 * Belugas is heading for micro-wave hoven
17:03:17 <Belugas> lunch time has started
17:03:23 * Belugas waves hello to frosch123
17:04:03 <frosch123> DaleStan, Belugas, George: Using bits 14 and 15 would imply, that you can only draw normal sprites. I.e. no recoloured, e.g. with the random industry color ...
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17:26:59 <George> frosch123: :( I hoped to see it recoloured.
17:27:01 <George> DaleStan: I understand that I can check a var and have different graphics.
17:27:02 <George> And what was the intention of bit 14? Were is it used? I mean could bit 15 mean recolour and bit 14 invisibility (bit 30 means visibility already, so a bit for invisibility is welcome). or may be a combination of bits 14,15 and 30 could define visibility/recolour?
17:27:58 <DaleStan> One of them means to draw "transparently"; the other means to draw with recoloring.
17:28:20 <frosch123> George: you can see the effect of bit 14 with standard station roofs
17:28:37 <frosch123> or the green glass in mb's newstations
17:29:36 <frosch123> when bit 14 is set, the current pixel color from the screen is read, recolored using the recolor sprite in bits 16..29, and written back
17:29:50 <frosch123> that is done for all pixels which are not transparent in the sprite of bits 0..13
17:30:27 <George> may be bit 14=1 and bit 30=1 would mean a normal sprite invisible in transparent mode?
17:31:16 <frosch123> no it means always transparent
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17:34:10 <George> frosch123: But how can it be transparent in transparent mode if it is transparent? what is changed with such a sprite when transparency is on? If nothing, than bit 30 is useless for it, and a combination of bit 14 = 1 and bit 30 = 1 could be a special value for special behaviour?
17:36:44 <frosch123> currently bit 14,15,30 = (1,0,0) means that that the sprite modifies the screencontent using the recolor sprite from bits 16..29. When transparency is enabled it uses the default transparency-recolor sprite instead of bits 16..29
17:37:07 <frosch123> though I would not be surprised, when ttdp behaves differently
17:37:52 <frosch123> and (1,0,1) would mean that it always uses bits 16..29
17:38:55 <frosch123> however, George, one special value is not enough.
17:39:05 <DaleStan> That is, I believe, the way TTDPatch handles it too.
17:39:33 <SmatZ> 32bpp blitters don't use recolor sprites for BM_TRANSPARENT, that may be an issue
17:39:49 <frosch123> that's a different issue :)
17:40:10 <SmatZ> yeah, just if someone had idea to use "all to transparent" palette in this case :)
17:40:17 <Belugas> no free bits available on those sprites ids, don't they?
17:41:23 <frosch123> well, you could start that usually an action1 set will not contain 16384 sprites :)
17:41:35 <frosch123> but that would not solve the issue for non-action1 sprites
17:42:36 <frosch123> so, actually (1,1,0) and (1,1,1) are free
17:44:24 <George> Can one mean "Recoloured and hidden in transparent mode" and an other "Hidden in transparent mode"?
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17:45:18 <DaleStan> Waste of a setting. Recolor with 775 if you don't want recoloring.
17:45:53 <frosch123> true, that is also an option
17:46:09 <frosch123> maybe 0x3ff instead of 775?
17:46:57 <DaleStan> And that frees up a spot for "transparent in normal mode, hidden in transparent mode".
17:47:25 <DaleStan> 0x3fff? 0x307 I can figure, but why 3FFF?
17:47:54 <frosch123> someone might change sprite 0x307
17:48:24 <frosch123> 0x0000 means using default recolour sprite, so maybe 0x0001 for none
17:49:27 <frosch123> but, true, 0x307 should be enough
17:50:49 <frosch123> however, imo (1,1,1) should be kept for something more useful than "transparent in normal mode, hidden in transparent mode"
18:14:21 <dih> src/string.cpp:70: char* strecpy(char*, const char*, const char*): Assertion `dst <= last' failed.
18:14:27 <dih> sorry - i dont have more info
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18:19:29 <frosch123> you could at least specify the revision :)
18:19:49 <dih> always latest nightly ;-)
18:20:55 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r14564 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix (r14555): one more incorrect use of lastof()
18:20:57 <frosch123> ok, smatz is always faster
18:21:13 <planetmaker> :D THAT was quick. Fast as lightening
18:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> well, such bugs are easy to resolve when they are not the first incarnation
18:22:09 <dih> slowly i am thinking my server really is paying out
18:22:23 <dih> Eddi|zuHause, it's just finding them all :-P
18:24:00 *** Hirundo is now known as Swallow
18:24:41 <frosch123> I was just about to construct that one: grep -rI strecpy * | grep lastof | grep -v svn | grep -v "strecpy(\([^,]*\),.*lastof(\1)"
18:25:34 <frosch123> in matches 5 other times
18:25:35 <George> DaleStan: Does it mean that bit 15 is useless, because I can use recolour 775, and that's why it can be considerate as always 1, while bit 15 is used for the other purpose - invisible mode in transparent mode. For example in GRF version 8?
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18:26:10 <frosch123> George: bit 15 is traditional ttd, and it is faster to draw a sprite with bit 15 cleared
18:26:50 <George> frosch123: Draw a sprite?
18:26:53 <frosch123> hmm, grf version 8. that's an idea, one could remove bit 15 in grf version 8
18:28:14 <SmatZ> frosch123: are you going to check those matches? (grepped)
18:29:40 *** Guest1514 is now known as Ammler
18:29:50 <frosch123> vehicle_gui.cpp is ok
18:32:09 <frosch123> driver.cpp does not neccessarily make sense, but should not trigger that assertion
18:33:41 <frosch123> macos.mm is ok, but is commented out anyway
18:34:50 <frosch123> / } <- I will never again take a look at macos.mm
18:35:39 * frosch123 does not understand that slash logic, but he meant two
18:36:51 <Aali> i need to talk to Celestar
18:37:04 <Aali> or someone else who understands the internal workings of cargodest
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18:39:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: how about you just ask the real question?
18:40:00 <Aali> okay, is numskip ever supposed to be -1 in Routing_t::GetDestination?
18:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, ok, that is very internal ;)
18:41:43 <Eddi|zuHause> could it mean something like "invalid destination"?
18:42:08 <Eddi|zuHause> -1 or 0xFF...F is a very popular value for those
18:43:20 <Aali> yes, but guesswork isn't going to help here :P
18:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause> well, typically, those special values get a #define INVALID_<whatever> ((uint)(-1)) or something
18:44:31 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: translators * r14565 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:44:31 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-11-04 18:44:06
18:44:31 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 5 fixed by tucalipe (5)
18:44:31 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: catalan - 5 fixed, 2 changed by arnaullv (7)
18:44:31 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: italian - 2 changed by lorenzodv (2)
18:44:33 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: latvian - 65 fixed, 1 changed by v3rb0 (66)
18:44:35 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: persian - 111 fixed by ali sattari (111)
18:45:25 <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: its just a number, so nothing like that
18:45:57 <Eddi|zuHause> of course it's just a number, because defines are resolved before compilation
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18:46:16 <Eddi|zuHause> still such a define would occur in the code
18:46:29 <Aali> let me rephrase that, its used as a number
18:47:51 <SmatZ> OTTD uses mostly enums and static consts, not #defines
18:48:04 <SmatZ> so the debugger should be able to assign the name for that value
18:49:18 <Aali> does hg have a feature that will tell me when and by whom a certain line was changed?
18:50:20 <Eddi|zuHause> * retval INVALID_STATION We can go to any station we wish to <-- straight from the documentation
18:51:08 <Eddi|zuHause> although appears to be missing a @
18:51:58 <Aali> uh, yes, thats the return value
18:52:10 <Aali> not what i was asking for
18:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see why numskip=-1 should be a problem
18:56:35 <Aali> its not a problem if there are other stations in the routecache
18:56:49 <Aali> but if all stations end up with -1 you'll get an infinite loop
18:56:56 <Eddi|zuHause> if (RandomRange(maxnumskip) < numskip) continue; <- means this check is always false
18:57:21 <Aali> you do realize its unsigned, right?
18:57:24 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, no, it's an uint
18:59:26 <Eddi|zuHause> this function lacks some serious description on how you should read it
18:59:53 <Eddi|zuHause> uint sector = dist * 5 / maxdist; <- like what this value is supposed to tell us
19:01:31 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if you replace the 2000 by 1999, the infinite loop should disappear
19:02:08 <Eddi|zuHause> might just be an oversight
19:02:18 <Aali> but then -1 might be acceptable, and the source of the problem could be somewhere else
19:03:07 <Eddi|zuHause> -1 should never be acceptable for an uint, unless it's specifically documented
19:03:36 <Aali> sure, it has other codestyle-related issues
19:04:10 <SmatZ> UINT_MAX is there for this purpose (or is it MAX_UINT?)
19:06:01 <Aali> but if this really is the source of the problem, any station that produces 2000 units of cargo in a month would cause openttd to hang
19:06:15 <Aali> i can't believe that would go unnoticed for two months
19:06:30 <SmatZ> stations don't produce cargo
19:06:56 <SmatZ> and you are talking about cargodets, right?
19:07:16 <Aali> *any station recieves 2000 units of cargo from industries
19:08:34 <Eddi|zuHause> code says "origin this month", not "production this month"
19:08:54 <Eddi|zuHause> well, last month, but doesn't matter ;)
19:09:20 <Aali> yes, and it stores how much cargo originated at that station
19:09:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i never ever had a source station with that kind of throughput
19:09:43 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
19:11:02 <Aali> i was waay over that when this happened
19:11:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean like... not in 2 months, but in like 15 years of TT...
19:11:36 <Aali> unless one unit of coal weighs more than a few tonnes
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19:12:17 <Aali> i was lucky enough to have all the coal mines on screen when it happened, let me get a screenshot
19:13:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i have seen plenty of these games...
19:13:24 <Aali> i used ECS in this game though
19:13:27 <Eddi|zuHause> they so totally do not match my style of playing
19:13:38 <Aali> you can get more than 1000 tonnes from a single coal mine
19:15:12 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i occasionally had mines with output of 1000 (like 10 times of standard), but i never managed to have them grow beyond 2000
19:16:03 <Aali> the station serves all those coal mines
19:18:25 <Aali> this was actually just a test game for very high cargo weight multiplier
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19:18:41 <Aali> it was at x50 at that point, my poor trains were struggling :P
19:20:34 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
19:21:43 <Wolf01> which industries grfs are you using?
19:22:36 <Wolf01> There's a new version?
19:23:29 <Wolf01> I never managed to deactivate the stockpile function
19:23:45 <Aali> just change the grf parameter?
19:23:59 <Wolf01> Seem that with beta 4 doesn't work
19:24:47 <Aali> there's no instant cargo generation though, you can't change that
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19:43:04 <Aali> ah, there was definitely something else going on
19:43:35 <Aali> the pickup station shouldn't be considered as a target
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19:45:06 <Aali> unless of course there was a coal mine at the drop and a power station at the pickup
19:45:18 <Aali> so thats why it hasn't been discovered before ;)
19:50:45 <Wolf01> ECS question: "No mine closure. The mine should never close unless it is exhausted." with mine you mean all primary industries or only coal/iron ore mines?
20:02:52 *** FloSoft has joined #openttd
20:06:36 <George> Mines are: iron ore, coal, copper ore, limestone, sand, potash, sulphur mines, oil wells and oil rig. Also brick works is planned to be recoded as a mine.
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20:18:22 <Aali> that does indeed trigger it
20:19:35 <Aali> if 2000 or more cargo units originate at a station and you try to transport the same cargo type back to it, you'll get a nice complete lockup
20:27:47 *** Celestar has joined #openttd
20:27:47 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Celestar
20:30:30 <welshdragon> has anybody used putty to ssh tunnel via a server to play openttd?
20:31:06 <Aali> i have just pinned down a pretty nasty bug in cargodest
20:31:41 <Aali> < Aali> if 2000 or more cargo units originate at a station and you try to transport the same cargo type back to it, you'll get a nice complete lockup
20:32:05 <Aali> that was the last line before you joined, even :P
20:32:26 <Aali> the problem is in Routing_t::GetDestination
20:33:29 <Wolf01> George, is it normal that the coal left decrease with the time also with the parameter set to 15? (the remaining time is 0 months, so endless mines should be enabled)
20:33:29 <Aali> and since its unsigned, thats "bigger" than maxnumskip, and the loop never ends
20:33:53 <Celestar> but it doesn't lock up?
20:34:41 <Celestar> because it never did for me up to now ^^
20:35:01 <Aali> well, you need more than 2000 cargo units flowing/month
20:35:11 <Celestar> with passengers, that should be possible, no?
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20:35:23 <Celestar> hm .. guess not, it's only origin, not transfer
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20:36:14 <Celestar> so basically the -1 is stupid
20:36:28 <Aali> or you could make it signed
20:37:00 <Aali> that would fix the problem without changing anything else
20:37:14 <Celestar> that's not the idea (=
20:37:21 <Celestar> (it being signed I mean)
20:37:54 <Celestar> I just wonder why the HELL I have the -1 there :P
20:40:01 <Aali> well, without it, numskip would become 40 for unserviced stations, but that shouldn't cause any problems
20:40:23 <Celestar> at least 39 or 40 shouldn't cause problems, should it?
20:40:51 <Celestar> if (RandomRange(maxnumskip) < numskip) continue;
20:40:54 <Celestar> same problem, other place (=
20:41:49 <Celestar> <= instead of < i'd say
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20:42:28 <Aali> ah, yes, that is a better solution
20:42:40 <Celestar> this whole GetDestination thingy is stupid. I need to complete my less-random approach
20:42:58 <Celestar> RandomRange(maxnumskip) will yield a number between 0 and 39
20:43:31 <Aali> so that wont work anyway
20:43:51 <Celestar> how did this work before? :P
20:44:35 <DorpsGek> ln-: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 18 hours, 39 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <Bjarni> goodnight (what's left of it anyway)
20:46:44 <Aali> nah, put the +1 inside randomrange
20:47:02 <Celestar> products the world doesn't need: Audi demonstrated an A4 powered by Biogas.
20:47:04 *** TinoDidriksen has joined #openttd
20:47:11 <Celestar> it had 585 HP and went 327km/h
20:47:33 <blathijs> I read "585 Hitpoints" :-)
20:47:50 <Aali> and the other numskip assignment has a -1, while not a problem, that should probably go away as well
20:48:05 <Celestar> blathijs: lol .. me too on second thought :P
20:48:44 <Celestar> all the GetDestination was really a q&d solution. apparently it shows
20:49:30 <Aali> it has worked quite well up until now though
20:49:58 <Celestar> ln-: what about him?
20:51:12 <ln-> Celestar: i'm attempting to create discussion by creating the false impression that he has won or something.
20:52:01 <ln-> i have much experience with failing
20:52:04 <Celestar> and the thought of McCain winning is exactly scary for me personally
20:53:18 <ln-> the problem is that i'm damn tired
20:53:40 <Celestar> I'm just amazed that most europeans think that with a new president, the whole US policy will do a one-eighty.
20:55:15 <Celestar> [SRC] Compiling pbs.cpp
20:55:15 <Celestar> make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/vici/openttd-cargodest/objs/debug'
20:55:15 <Celestar> make: *** [all] Error 2
20:55:22 <ln-> well their president does have ridiculously much influence on their foreign policy and other stuff.
20:55:30 <Rubidium> Celestar: don't you? It'll change it's heading by approximately 1.80 degrees
20:55:45 <Rubidium> Celestar: sources.list contains a file that doesn't exist on the FS
20:56:04 <Celestar> Rubidium: I'd say maybe 15 degrees
20:56:31 <Celestar> it ALWAYS does a make reconfigure as well
20:56:37 * Celestar goes cleaning this up
20:59:02 <Celestar> something is seriously rotten
20:59:19 <Celestar> the make gives me kioslave errors now O_o
21:02:57 * SmatZ wishes to have time to read it :)
21:03:45 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: do you know, how to disable "overhead" traffic in Konversation
21:04:38 <Ammler> if I connect twice to this server, I will be kicked with "Excess Flood"
21:08:23 * Celestar wonders why the human digestive system misses a reset button
21:09:09 <Rubidium> Celestar: it has, but reboots aren't instant
21:09:34 <Celestar> my restting takes 3 days now
21:11:20 <Celestar> but mainly I'm drinking about 10 liters of water a day that get ejected very quickly on the wrong end.
21:11:42 <Celestar> I'm beginning to feel like a continuous-flow water heater.
21:12:21 <SmatZ> I heard someone died after drinking too much water too quickly
21:12:48 <Aali> its a well known fact that you can die from an overdose of water
21:13:06 <Celestar> overdosing water is difficult if you shit 3 gallons of it a day.
21:13:22 <Celestar> keeping the electrolytes balanced is another issue ...
21:13:31 <dih> Celestar, you are not supposed to punp it up your ass
21:15:54 <Celestar> :o Chelsea trails 0-3
21:19:10 * Celestar thinks he kind of killed the conversation
21:19:17 <Celestar> Aali: problem fixed on hg repo
21:23:39 <Celestar> kannscht des grad bidde nommal sage?
21:25:28 *** TrueBrain has left #openttd
21:26:01 <Celestar> dih: you know Bird and Fortune?
21:27:00 <Celestar> still haven't decided which one is my favorite
21:29:19 <Celestar> haven't seen that one yet
21:33:10 <Ammler> I got that msg (Reconfig done. Please re-execute make.), if I run make but compile continues, do I really need to rerun make? or did that happen automatically?
21:35:13 *** XeryusTC is now known as Xeryus|bnc
21:41:37 <rortom> about me desync problems
21:41:47 <rortom> same GRF, 0.3.6 = stable
21:42:01 <rortom> nightly = desync always after ~50 game years
21:42:52 <rortom> was a long day for me today ;)
21:43:58 <Ammler> usually, 0.6 is going to desync, not nightly :-)
21:44:20 <rortom> nightly is much more unstable then 0.6.x atm :\
21:45:21 <dih> you should know about those things
21:45:42 <Ammler> but I have other experience about nightly
21:45:53 <SmatZ> [22:42:02] <rortom> nightly = desync always after ~50 game years <-- not that serious...
21:47:29 <rortom> dih: normally nightlies are more stable then the last release for me, just not recently
21:47:52 <dih> your 'normally' is not the definition of a snatpshot build
21:48:01 <rortom> SmatZ: its bad if you cannot continue a game because its just desyncing, frustrating
21:48:27 <rortom> im used that you provide good snapshot quality ;)
21:50:07 <Aali> if you can reproduce the desync 10 times out of 10 it should be easy to fix
21:50:25 <Aali> since it doesn't happen in 0.6.3
21:50:41 <rortom> it was "just" 4/4 times, then switched back to 0.6.3
21:52:48 <Celestar> Rubidium is _the_ desync killing man
21:53:28 <rortom> i guess its manualy bug finding every time?
21:53:38 <rortom> with printf and lots of work involved?
21:53:52 <Aali> rortom: so how do i reproduce it? whats your setup?
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21:54:41 * SmatZ doesn't let rortom restart it, sorry :-x
21:54:47 <Aali> well, i would have to run it on my machine
21:59:21 <rortom> Aali: pls refresh, should run with the correct GRFs now
21:59:29 <rortom> thanks Celestar and Aali :)
22:00:06 <Aali> those grfs shouldn't be a problem
22:00:45 <rortom> could be that 0.6.3 removed some GRFs :(
22:01:18 <Aali> does the server get alot of traffic?
22:01:24 <Ammler> I only know of desyncs if you mix GRF with static grfs
22:01:43 <Ammler> but that should be fixed in trunk
22:04:42 <Celestar> Aali: what does that have to do with anything?
22:05:41 <Aali> Celestar: i assume it doesn't just desync all by itself without anyone actually playing :P
22:06:23 <Celestar> Aali: the server can't desync
22:07:01 <rortom> mh i should start a second test server
22:07:08 <rortom> and let that desync with the nightlies
22:07:10 <Aali> Celestar: of course not, but if no-one is building anything, it's not going to desync unless there's something wrong with the server
22:07:29 <rortom> maybe test it with stupid multiplayer ai?
22:07:30 <Celestar> Aali: it can desync even then
22:08:45 <Aali> Celestar: sure, if the bug is in any of the features that run without player interaction
22:09:10 <Celestar> a *lot* a features run without players
22:09:39 <Aali> but not all of them, and if there was a problem with them, everyone would get these desyncs
22:10:03 <Celestar> Aali: you need to understand what a desync is first.
22:11:27 <rortom> thanks for the help :)
22:11:32 <Ammler> another pro for noai on clients
22:11:39 <rortom> dont you do some MP stress testing games stuff?
22:11:51 <Ammler> you could let them play until it desyncs :-)
22:12:00 <rortom> ^ thats what i mean :)
22:12:15 <Aali> rortom: if you can, leave a game running with a few dummy clients and see what happens
22:12:22 <Celestar> rortom: why stress testing?
22:12:33 <rortom> idk why it happens really
22:12:41 <rortom> but i will try to setup such a game
22:12:45 <Ammler> but sadly, "they" decided to not let ai runs on cleints :-(
22:12:46 <Aali> if it does indeed desync on its own, it'll be a simple matter of finding the revision where it was introduced
22:12:54 <rortom> can you speed up the game's internal clock somehow?
22:13:26 <rortom> like simulate as fast as possible?
22:13:40 <rortom> if i hack server and client?
22:13:51 <Ammler> it might desync then :P
22:13:52 <Celestar> rortom: I know why it happens
22:13:52 <planetmaker> rortom: daylength patch
22:14:12 <planetmaker> patch by Celestar ! yeah :)
22:14:34 <planetmaker> that's a patch which modifies game speed. No, it's still a patch.
22:14:48 <Celestar> rortom: it happens because the PRNG on the server and clients have different outputs :P
22:15:38 <Ammler> still a patch, not a advanced setting :-P
22:16:01 <planetmaker> yeah. That's a place where this distinction is quite adequate :)
22:16:05 <Aali> anyways, the whole thing is more or less meaningless if you're not using the original, unmodified nightly
22:16:18 <Celestar> the TTRS can cause problems
22:16:29 <Celestar> afaik it's known to cause problems
22:16:43 <rortom> Celestar: oh, really :P
22:16:52 <Celestar> mostly in the year 1970 or so
22:17:04 <Ammler> rortom: if it desync, did you need to restart the server?
22:17:19 <Ammler> or just rejoin and continue?
22:17:25 <Celestar> sounds very TTRSish to me
22:17:28 <rortom> i can rejoin and directly desync again
22:17:47 <rortom> ~ 10 secs ingame or so
22:17:56 <Ammler> Celestar: something similar we had on our test server?
22:18:43 <Celestar> afaik that cannot be fixed, since it is a flaw in the TTRS or summin
22:18:51 <Celestar> I'm sure petern and Belugas know more about it
22:19:07 <Aali> someone should fix TTRS, then
22:19:37 <Celestar> or make a workaround grf :P
22:21:42 <Ammler> good night everybody...
22:30:21 <Celestar> I'm going to sleep as well.
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22:42:40 <tokai> Only? I expected much more people die everyday in Germany.
22:43:34 <rortom> argh, highway accident :(
22:45:29 *** welshdragon2 is now known as welshdragon
22:46:15 <thingwath> 20 people in a single highway accident?
22:49:51 <ln-> tokai: an excellent topic to joke about.
22:52:08 <Rubidium> when it's 20 at once it's notable, when there are 10 accidents with 3 nobody cares...
22:53:25 <ln-> "Beim Brand eines Reisebusses auf der Autobahn A2 bei Hannover sind Polizeinangaben zufolge mindestens 20 Menschen, überwiegend Rentner, ums Leben gekommen. Das Fahrzeug hat während der Fahrt Richtung Berlin Feuer gefangen - ein Fahrgast soll heimlich auf der Toilette geraucht haben."
22:56:02 <thingwath> Rubidium: such accidents are quite often driver's fault
22:57:45 <ln-> thingwath: not this time, as seen above.
22:59:00 <thingwath> would have to translate it with google or something :-)
22:59:12 <thingwath> and I meant those smaller accidents
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continue to next day ⏵
