IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-11-03
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00:00:19 <Char> so you all started with computers somewhere in the age of the 386?
00:00:28 <rubyruy> so i know balance isn't really a high priority goal with openttd since it's more of a sandbox game then really competitive... but is it just me or are aircraft like REALLLLLY "overpowered"
00:00:56 <TrueBrain> rubyruy: increase the speed-factor of aircrafts
00:00:58 <Char> because it IS overpowered
00:01:09 <rubyruy> like i have a friendly (but competitive) game with some work buddies going and no matter how nice my train lines are, 4 airports make 5 times more :(
00:01:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that's about the time when i got "computer sentient"... i used them before, but i don't remember anything about the
00:01:39 <Char> so that means you all played the original TT as well
00:01:45 <Aali> planes are great for getting some quick cash
00:01:56 <Char> planes are just too simple.
00:02:12 <Char> so did i.... although it was not the first game i played i guess
00:02:25 <rubyruy> yeah but it still sucks that I spent all this time making this very expensive, over-engineered express line, and then boss plops down 6 airports and runs away with the game :p
00:02:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the first game that i remember is sokoban
00:02:39 <Char> fun thing is, most of the games i played back then i still remember as good games... if i play a new game today, i forget it three days later.
00:02:44 <Aali> rubyruy: using any grfs?
00:02:49 <rubyruy> no - default everything
00:02:49 <TrueBrain> I can't remember my first game
00:03:03 <Aali> realistic aircraft are more expensive
00:03:06 <thingwath> my first game was prince of persia two, but I spent many, many years with tt[d]
00:03:12 <TrueBrain> the pong virus was on a 386, TSR application
00:03:12 <rubyruy> like the openttdcoopy pack?
00:03:21 <Aali> they can still make a buttload of cash though
00:03:54 <Eddi|zuHause> well, from that old time there are many minigames
00:04:07 <Char> should be so expensive in running costs that they are only worth it for really long distances (planes)
00:04:23 <TrueBrain> I tihnk my first game was a GWBasic 'maze' game
00:04:23 <Char> i guess the first games were like nibbles and gorilla
00:04:28 <rubyruy> long distances are exactly where they are RIDICULOUSLY profitable
00:04:36 <rubyruy> has nobody really attempted to balance them?
00:04:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the first game that had some kind of storyline was monkey island
00:04:40 <Aali> planes are insane on 2048^2 maps
00:04:45 <rubyruy> it's one of those things where you'd think somebody did
00:05:01 <Char> but also TT, simcity, dune2, civilization, ....
00:05:07 <thingwath> planes should be profitable on long distances, shouldn't they?
00:05:21 <TrueBrain> dune2 .. dos4gw ... 486 ... :)
00:05:25 *** Spoons is now known as FauxFaux
00:05:33 <Aali> a full boeing 737 from one corner of the map to another = half a million in profit
00:05:34 <rubyruy> well yes but like i said, 6 airports make 5 times more money then my fairly well developed train network
00:06:03 <TrueBrain> I tried to make it a webdune :)
00:06:04 <rubyruy> and since you can just grow cities there is no real limit to how many of them you can build
00:06:06 <TrueBrain> worked pretty well ;)
00:06:13 <rubyruy> basically there is compelling reason to even bother with rail if you're playing competitive
00:06:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember having monkey island on 4 5¼" diskettes
00:06:29 <thingwath> I always have enough money to build more airports and planes then any other player :-)
00:06:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and switching diskettes all the time
00:06:36 <rubyruy> and i understand most people play for fun / sandbox style but it's kinda annoying outside of that :p
00:06:40 <Char> rubyruy: yes, just say "no air"
00:06:49 <thingwath> because they are too lazy to build a real railway network
00:06:51 <TrueBrain> webdune, a AJAX based dune2 clone :)
00:07:12 <Aali> increasin the plane speed factor works though
00:07:27 <Aali> go high enough and they'll be useless
00:07:43 <Belugas> George, i see you found us :) congrats
00:07:43 <Char> and of course i remember playing netwars on the school computers
00:07:51 <Aali> well, decrease the speed, increase the setting ;)
00:07:52 <rubyruy> oh wait is that that funny mechanism that makes planes move slower then advertised?
00:07:53 <Belugas> if ever yu are still awaken...
00:08:09 <TrueBrain> netwars .. I only start playing that like 1 year ago :p
00:08:32 <Char> rubyruy: in the original game they were running at 1/4th of their true speed
00:09:03 <Char> TrueBrain: the original netwars? this black-and-white-polygon-thingy?
00:09:17 <rubyruy> ... i'm still kinda torn because it would be nice to have SOME air but keep industry more profitable
00:09:23 <rubyruy> what about adjusting passanger payment rates?
00:09:23 <Char> i somehow never played monkey island....
00:09:41 <Char> rubyruy: might be an idea....
00:09:41 <Eddi|zuHause> rubyruy: adjusting to what?
00:09:41 <TrueBrain> hmm .. now I am mixing up a few names .. if netwars is what I think it is, I played that A LOT on the computer network too :p
00:09:51 <rubyruy> just lowering payout for passengers
00:10:20 <Char> TrueBrain: probably there is more than one game with the highly uncommon name "netwars"....
00:10:20 <Eddi|zuHause> rubyruy: doesn't change the relationship between trains and planes
00:10:31 <TrueBrain> a simple space game
00:10:36 <TrueBrain> which worked on the 486
00:10:44 <TrueBrain> rockets, and that was it
00:10:47 <Char> which worked on the 8086 pretty well
00:10:50 <TrueBrain> but .. IPX/SPX network support
00:11:00 <TrueBrain> I loved that game :)
00:11:01 <rubyruy> yeah ... it would kill passenger trains as well i guess
00:11:10 <rubyruy> sigh .. maybe just cost + running cost would do it
00:11:29 <rubyruy> IRL it should be significantly higher
00:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> landing cost, starting cost, loading time
00:11:59 <rubyruy> maybe i should just try the aviator set
00:12:00 <Aali> rubyruy: you could also stop town growth
00:12:06 <thingwath> personaly, I would make airports even larger than they are now
00:12:07 <Eddi|zuHause> those should be the disadvantages of planes
00:12:15 <Aali> which wouldn't ruin passenger transport, but limit it
00:12:27 <rubyruy> Oh oh oh oh and that patch from edge which limits airports getting built inside cities
00:12:36 <rubyruy> that would also make it more of an operation then currently
00:12:36 <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot stop town growth
00:12:37 <TrueBrain> Char: I remember it even being more basic ;)
00:12:39 <rubyruy> since you'd have ot setup feeders
00:12:44 <TrueBrain> but I could never find the game ever again :(
00:12:50 <TrueBrain> the game I wasa consufing it with, was nethack
00:12:53 <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: of course you can
00:13:01 <Eddi|zuHause> only towns building roads, but they still grow along player's roads
00:13:12 <thingwath> Eddi|zuHause: there is patch settings
00:13:33 <Char> there are towns which do not build roads?
00:13:48 <thingwath> I use it when I have some bigger towns and want to keep small villages.
00:13:53 <Char> i would vote for significantly increasing the running cost of all planes
00:13:58 <Char> especially the fast ones
00:14:05 <TrueBrain> I vote for redoing the whole economy :p
00:14:09 <TrueBrain> oh wait .. 'gamebalance' branch .. :)
00:14:23 <Char> TrueBrain: you're up to it? :P
00:14:38 <Char> is there a gamebalance branch>
00:14:39 <rubyruy> there is such branch?
00:15:07 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there is, celestar started it like a year ago
00:15:11 <rubyruy> economy has bugged me for a long time with TTD... but i can't think of any not-insanely-complicated way of fixing it :p
00:15:27 <rubyruy> like there should probably be destinations for cargo... but oh god the micromanagement i don't think it would really be any fun
00:16:14 <Aali> there's a branch for that too
00:16:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that is already implemented
00:16:30 <rubyruy> why isn't it in the trunk?
00:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause> currently awaiting merge to trunk
00:16:51 <TrueBrain> finializing, to be more exact
00:16:51 <Aali> it only routes cargo through your existing network though
00:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that needs code reviews and stuff
00:17:06 <Aali> it doesn't come up with new destinations for anything
00:17:32 <TrueBrain> it makes the game more interesting
00:17:38 <Aali> you dont have to use transfer orders and shit to build a real network
00:17:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it mostly gets rid of all the transfer orders mess
00:17:53 <Aali> and some things which were previously not possible are now
00:18:09 <rubyruy> it seems the micro would quickly get unbearable
00:18:16 <Aali> since cargo will only be loaded on a vehicle that will actually take it to its destination
00:18:22 <Eddi|zuHause> you can still play the old way as long as you build your network so that there are no ambiguities
00:18:34 <Aali> there's no more micro, really
00:18:54 <Aali> it builds the network based on your vehicles' orders
00:19:21 <Aali> you still build whatever routes you like
00:19:46 <rubyruy> so you can still just feed everything to 1 factory if you want to and all that?
00:20:03 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as you do not connect a second factory to your network
00:20:51 <thingwath> then, everything will start to move around in very unpredictable ways :-)
00:20:53 <rubyruy> so mostly it's to help people build real networks if they want to eh? not so much 'balance' per say
00:21:37 <rubyruy> what about limited demand for goods / passengers and limited production caps for factories ?
00:22:09 <Aali> which features stockpiling
00:22:40 <rubyruy> i should just install the openttdcoop back before bitching about the game balance :p
00:22:59 <Aali> with stockpiling there's no magic transformation from raw material to goods
00:23:20 <Aali> the factory produces cargo at a variable but not unlimited rate
00:23:23 <rubyruy> oh awsome so you actually have to spread out your network?
00:24:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also try pikka's basic industries, they are closer to the originals
00:24:05 <rubyruy> is the production cap explicitly stated ? does it grow like resource produciton grows in the vanilla game?
00:24:52 <Eddi|zuHause> that's an implementation detail that is yet to be decided
00:24:53 <Aali> rubyruy: it does grow, but not entirely like vanilla industries
00:24:57 <rubyruy> i have to chooose ? :p
00:25:18 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't use all grfs at the same time
00:25:46 <Aali> i try to use as few grfs as possible :P
00:26:42 <Aali> as in, no stations i'm probably never going to use, no company faces (who cares about those anyway?) etc
00:27:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i always play without fences
00:27:59 <Aali> and even then i'm up to 17 grfs in my current game :(
00:28:23 <Ammler> you should be able to around 60 GRF at once
00:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> they obfuscate my view
00:28:37 <Aali> but then i use IS, and it sucks not being able to tell who owns what
00:29:26 <thingwath> CSRailSet has no fences by default and I'm too lazy to turn them on
00:29:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i should try IS some time... to fulfil my schitzophrenic needs
00:29:52 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: IS doesn't make much sense in SP
00:30:10 <Aali> even though the current patch is pretty bad, its still an awesome concept
00:30:21 <thingwath> with fences it doesn't look like a real railways
00:30:38 <Ammler> rubyruy: of course not :P
00:30:57 <Aali> rubyruy: you might want to get newer versions of some of them
00:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the german town names v1.1 i presume :p
00:31:32 <Char> one could try to make a game with ships only....
00:31:35 <rubyruy> oh also unrleated to my previous questions - is there a way to adjust the ratio of resource producing industries to factories / end-points in the map gen?
00:31:40 <Aali> that pack has ECS vectors beta 4, and they dont support longdate
00:31:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Char: too few ship sets for that...
00:32:05 <rubyruy> really?! i am shocked
00:32:17 <rubyruy> you know... for a game all about the modding ;)
00:32:32 <Eddi|zuHause> rubyruy: yes, newgrfs should be able to define the generation ratio
00:32:33 <Ammler> well, if you play a SP game, you should always look for newer versions for main GRFs
00:32:36 <Aali> doesn't really matter, industries at the start of the game will be gone soon enough anyways
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00:34:06 <thingwath> when then is nobody to share the infrastructure with...
00:34:06 <Aali> a patch that enables you to run trains on each others tracks and more
00:34:34 <rubyruy> do you get paid for somebody else using your track?
00:34:37 <Char> but then again... why not just play in the same company?
00:34:54 <Aali> the fees are all adjustable
00:35:06 <rubyruy> so this is a patch not a grf?
00:35:10 <Aali> you can share depots, bus/truck stops and airports too
00:35:24 <Aali> you have to modify your openttd for that
00:35:56 <Char> rubyruy: ECS vectors is really nice... still, you can easily have steel mills producing like 2000+ units of steel a month
00:36:11 <Char> which is pretty decent, in my current game i mostly use one steel mill actually
00:36:24 <Aali> 2000 units is not that much though
00:36:27 <rubyruy> well for games with people you know (i.e. not intenret pickup games) you can just distribute the compiled binary + game folder as a zip - easy peasy
00:36:52 <Aali> rubyruy: i use alot of patches for when i play with my friends
00:37:06 <rubyruy> is there a compile guide for osx?
00:37:17 <rubyruy> also y'all really need to get with the times and switch to git
00:37:25 <Aali> check the wiki, under development
00:37:26 <rubyruy> (i'm sure this is brought up a lot)
00:37:41 <Aali> i think there's a git one too
00:37:56 <Char> i feel so lame with my small railway networks if i compare them to the massive networks with 500+ trains which are used in the public server games
00:38:16 <Aali> Char: we had 1500+ in a recent game
00:38:23 <thingwath> rubyruy: not so easy when they use windows
00:38:28 <Aali> alot of people couldn't play
00:39:45 <rubyruy> do the GRFs in the ttdcoop grfpack require a nightly?
00:39:49 <Char> i am at 110 currently in my current game
00:39:57 <Aali> rubyruy: some of them do
00:40:01 <rubyruy> ot do i have to check each one?
00:40:16 <rubyruy> err i guess i can just get the latest
00:40:16 <Aali> you're better of with the nightly anyways
00:40:21 <thingwath> 330 trains now, and it's getting slow :/
00:40:24 <Char> isnt there nightlys precompiled?
00:42:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the only time i ever got my computer to choke on one of my games was when i played a completely empty ECS game on a 2k^2 map
00:43:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it got significantly faster after i accidently left the game running unattended for 7 years, though ;)
00:43:02 <Char> is ECS that compute-power intense?
00:43:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd suspect the animations
00:43:56 <Aali> i would suspect the large number of grf callbacks
00:44:33 <Aali> every industry adjusting production, stockpiles and whatnot
00:44:39 <ln> question de la noche: ¿is there a fundamental reason why the map edges need to be water?
00:44:40 <Char> on 512^2 it works great ;)
00:44:43 <Eddi|zuHause> profiling showed the most time was spent in ResolveSpriteGroup function
00:45:04 <Char> ln: yes, otherwise it would look strange
00:45:22 <ln> Char: that's not a fundamental reason.
00:45:42 <Char> that probably was the reason originally
00:45:56 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: afair the map border has to be flat for some height/slope calculations to work
00:46:30 <Eddi|zuHause> which is why there's an additional line of invisible tiles beyond the water tiles
00:47:02 <Eddi|zuHause> on the two lower borders, yes
00:47:22 <ln> i was just about to say one could simply skip drawing a little from the edges.
00:47:27 <SmatZ> I think the reason for MP_VOID tiles was to easily check for overflow at map size
00:47:31 <Eddi|zuHause> the shape of one tile depends on the height of the adjacent tiles, only the top corner is stored in the tile
00:47:36 <SmatZ> they have x == 255 || y == 255
00:48:07 <Eddi|zuHause> so to draw one tile, you have to access the 3 tiles below it
00:48:17 <rubyruy> hey you know what else would balance air a little... making ALL the airports significantly larger
00:48:30 <Eddi|zuHause> to not have special cases for the lower border tiles, an additional row of tiles was introduced
00:48:59 <thingwath> but you can shape them anyhow you like, or not?
00:49:06 <Aali> rubyruy: the larger airports are hard to place without destroying too much landscape already
00:49:17 <ln> i was once again thinking about the possible ways of implementing foreign countries.
00:49:26 <Eddi|zuHause> rubyruy: airports are insanely difficult to code, i don't see that happening anytime soon
00:49:51 <rubyruy> Aali: exactly.... so if the smallest lowest capacity airport was that big then the challange of making an airnetwork would at least be remotely close to building trains
00:49:56 <Char> that makes airports hard to place already :P
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00:50:04 <thingwath> that makes hard to place anything
00:50:04 <rubyruy> since you'd have to flatten mountains and all that
00:50:28 <Aali> flattening mountains is easy though
00:50:36 <Char> once you got the money....
00:50:47 <Aali> its not that expensive either
00:50:53 <rubyruy> Eddi|zuHause: it would be ok to keep the existing airport code just fill it up with props
00:51:04 <Char> you just have to plant a lot of trees afterwards :P
00:51:22 <rubyruy> like the runway hangers stay the same, but there can be parking lots and other random crap surrounding them just to take up space
00:51:29 <ln> btw, the airports ought to be less square-shaped, if you ask me. (i know no one asks me.)
00:51:33 <rubyruy> You can't terraform through competitor land :)
00:52:37 <thingwath> less square-shaped, nice idea :-)
00:52:48 <Eddi|zuHause> rubyruy: well, the project for newgrf airports has been left stale for a long time now
00:55:29 <ln> in most 1-runway real life airports the general shape of the area is not square, because the terminals and other stuff do not need 2..3 kilometers in the other direction.
00:56:57 <Eddi|zuHause> so you want the small airport to have a 12 tile runway, and the big airport 32?
00:57:24 <Char> 10/20 would be okay as well i guess
00:58:00 <Char> when the planes take more time on the airports
00:58:01 <rubyruy> something like that yes
00:58:21 <Char> it becomes less attactive to use planes for short distance flights
00:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause> you should provide an early zeppelin airport ("heliport") then, because that doesn't need a long runway
00:58:45 <rubyruy> yeah maybe keep original small airport as zep port?
00:59:06 <rubyruy> or have a empire state building type zep-port based on heliport code :)
00:59:15 <Eddi|zuHause> remember that 100 tiles is almost half the (original) map
00:59:27 <rubyruy> very large airports + higher running aircraft costs + higher aircraft buy costs == balanced air ? (maybe?)
00:59:35 <Char> and then you can increase the travel costs for airplanes like crazy and give them their original speed
01:00:00 <Char> probably you also need cargodest
01:00:09 <thingwath> zeppelins can't travel very fast, so they are not so competitive to trains
01:00:15 <Char> cause otherwise you just build 2-6 ultra-large airports
01:00:20 <rubyruy> yeah i'm not really worried about the zeps
01:00:29 <rubyruy> actually even propeller plains aren't really competitive
01:00:34 <rubyruy> but once jets show up it's game over trains
01:00:41 <Eddi|zuHause> zeppelins are twice as fast as trains of the same era
01:00:49 <ln> the size is 6×6 for the "normal" one now. i'd change it to something like 4×8.
01:01:08 <Char> usually one plays with 1/4 air speed
01:01:23 <ln> 20 tiles for runway is insane.
01:01:26 <Eddi|zuHause> 128 are the zeppelins i think
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01:01:50 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: why? an airport should be significantly bigger than a train station
01:01:54 <thingwath> with 1/4 ratio 128 is slower than most of the trains...
01:02:09 <Char> actually than all trains ;)
01:02:20 <Char> still it has the advantage of not needing any network
01:02:40 <ln> Eddi|zuHause: from that perspective, yeah, it wouldn't be insane, but compared to current airport sizes.
01:02:44 <rubyruy> that's like the biggest issue (if playing competitive)
01:02:46 <Char> and especially on difficult terrain that is an advantage
01:02:50 <Eddi|zuHause> they also cost like 10 trains
01:03:02 <thingwath> if miles, it's not so slow
01:03:37 <thingwath> ok, that is slow :-)
01:03:47 <Eddi|zuHause> which sane person counts in miles nowadays?
01:04:15 <Aali> there's sane people nowadays?
01:05:01 <rubyruy> isn't that just sad? :p
01:05:13 <Char> Aali: i read "they are sane people nowadays?" instead of what you wrote :P
01:05:15 <rubyruy> get with the program people! the british did and they INVENTED the mess
01:05:18 <Eddi|zuHause> what's that? USA, Liberia and Thailand?
01:06:08 <ln> i bet that map is related to STDs and not miles.
01:06:39 <Aali> i like the colorcoded age-of-consent map
01:07:19 <Eddi|zuHause> care to show us?
01:07:21 * SmatZ is happy to be old enough not to care about age-of-consent
01:07:34 <ln> would be very idealistic to say e.g. britain isn't using miles.
01:07:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and you think i will search wikipedia now just because you mentioned a random image?
01:07:53 <ln> SmatZ: it's not about how old *you* must be, but how old she must be.
01:08:07 <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: suit yourself :P
01:08:22 <Eddi|zuHause> you, sir, are an idiot.
01:09:49 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: it says so on wikipedia, it MUST be true!
01:10:24 <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: because i don't care if you look at some random image?
01:12:23 <thingwath> huhm, slow, you can travel 27 kilometers 44 minutes, even openttd zeppelin could beat that, I think
01:15:16 <rortom_> /cat /dev/urandom > /dev/fb0
01:18:06 <ln> thingwath: in that google maps link of yours, the airport has an abandoned railway connection?
01:18:29 <DorpsGek> Sacro|Laptop: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
01:22:58 <thingwath> i don't know if it's really abandoned
01:23:30 <thingwath> but it is certainly not used for personal transit, and it never was
01:24:15 <thingwath> there are some fuzzy plans to make something about it, though
01:24:55 <ln> the airport would seem to be used for personal transit
01:25:22 <thingwath> The airport of course is.
01:25:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i so loathe google
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01:25:55 <ln> is that TNT's plane on the left?
01:26:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't follow such google maps links, it's always telling me that my browser is not supported
01:26:59 <rortom_> you start like yorick ;)
01:27:04 *** rortom_ is now known as rortom
01:27:05 <Eddi|zuHause> while it's fine when i just open a browser and type in maps.google.de
01:27:45 <thingwath> ln: I have no idea, what is 'TNT'? :-)
01:27:49 <rortom> considering that google maps is just one big javascript hack ...
01:28:57 <thingwath> Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. :-)
01:30:18 <Eddi|zuHause> thingwath: it does, but your URL catcher ignores the trailing .
01:30:33 <thingwath> thank you, you're right
01:31:04 <SpComb> hmm, a PHP rcon-web-ui
01:39:44 <rubyruy> are ECS and newcargo mutually exclusive?
01:40:54 <rubyruy> it's really tricky to figure out compatibility for all of these :/
01:44:08 <Aali> ECS vectors can't be used with other grfs that modify cargoes
01:44:40 <Aali> (or, they can be, but the results wont be pretty)
01:44:57 <thingwath> does anyone know, if it's possible to use CSDset with DBset?
01:45:11 <thingwath> it worked, once, but doesn't, now
01:46:15 <Aali> currently there's a hard limit of 32 different cargo types, and ECS defines them all
01:55:54 <Eddi|zuHause> thingwath: there is a switch in the advanced settings: "allow more than one newgrf vehicle set" [don't switch on during a running game]
01:57:53 <thingwath> but I can't load both CSD and DB sets at once
01:57:56 <Eddi|zuHause> gah... i need flexible bridges and diagonal stations...
01:58:16 <Eddi|zuHause> thingwath: the grfs themselves might detect other grfs and then disable them
01:58:31 <thingwath> but it worked once :-)
01:58:43 <Eddi|zuHause> different order?
01:59:31 <Eddi|zuHause> decode the grf and remove the compatibility check?
02:00:15 <thingwath> wouldn't be easier to just add that few vehicles I like from DB set to CSD one...? :-)
02:01:35 <Char> did anyone ever play a game with ALL ecs vectors?
02:01:54 <Char> seems to me like that might turn out pretty messy.
02:02:17 <Aali> depends on how large your network is
02:02:25 <Aali> but yes, its a little too much
02:02:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried, but it was unplayably slow
02:02:53 <Aali> you should only use the beta 5 vectors for now though
02:03:26 <Aali> the others wont work properly after a certain in-game date
02:03:42 <Aali> its the y2k bug, in openttd
02:03:50 <Char> well, usually after like 25-50 years, the game gets boring anyways
02:04:26 <Aali> i have a SP game thats in 2200 already, and the network isn't half-finished
02:05:04 <Aali> admittedly, its 1024^2 and the network will cover the entire map and thats a little extreme, but still
02:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Char: with daylength 8, 25-50 years is a very long time ;)
02:29:27 <Sacro|Laptop> hmm, we might have ourselves a bug
02:29:45 <Eddi|zuHause> have one on me, too
02:30:49 <Sacro|Laptop> we have a bus, he's spazzing between his orders
02:31:34 <Sacro|Laptop> Aali: he has 2 in his orers
02:31:38 <Aali> articulated vehicles do that when they can't use the station
02:31:46 <Aali> as i found out earlier tonight
02:33:36 <Sacro|Laptop> Aali: filed a bug report?
02:34:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it's called a "feature request"
02:34:58 <Aali> you can request they change that behaviour into something more intuitive
02:35:00 <Eddi|zuHause> articulated vehicles can neither overtake nor use non-drivethrough road stations
02:35:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it should at least throw an "invalid order" message
02:57:41 <Sacro|Laptop> is there any way of freeing stuck vehicles?
02:57:49 <Sacro|Laptop> thy just go 0-6mph and then 0
03:00:45 <Aali> well, if they're stuck, you're going to have to fix that first :P
03:12:53 <Char> with ECS, it is pretty hard to construct a stable network
03:13:14 <Char> i over-feed the factory with iron ore
03:13:25 <Char> the factory stops accepting iron ore
03:13:38 <Char> iron ore doesnt get transported anymore
03:13:48 <Aali> i just disable stockpiling, random industry closure and resource bodies
03:13:54 <Char> my mines pickup station gets a really bad rating because of no pickup
03:14:05 <Aali> which makes it pretty similar to vanilla, but with more cargo types
03:14:09 <Char> factory starts re-accepting
03:14:33 <Char> but all my mines have reduced production due to missing transport
03:14:52 <Char> well, if i wanted vanilla i'd play vanilla
03:14:59 <Char> i like the extra challenge :)
03:15:03 <Aali> you should setup a transfer system
03:15:13 <Aali> with an intermediate station to store excess ore
03:15:19 <Char> doesnt work perfectly either, though
03:15:29 <Aali> and feed the factory just the right amount of ore
03:15:36 <Char> and the intermediate station doesnt store infinitely
03:15:59 <Aali> but its better than the whole up&down cycle you get otherwise
03:16:02 <Char> but yes, i get your point, and i am doing that partially
03:16:34 <Char> and with stockpiles of ~10.000 tons of iron ore, i got a decent buffer
03:18:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i need, too, but i don't get any
03:19:50 <Aali> i should have gone to sleep hours ago, now it's too late, so i'm just going to stay up all night
03:23:10 <DorpsGek> Sacro|Laptop: Aloysha was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 26 weeks, 0 days, 0 hours, 16 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <Aloysha> booyah
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03:58:05 <rubyruy> are there any sound patches anywhere?
03:58:10 <rubyruy> like just replacing the sfx
03:59:39 <Aali> i wouldn't know where to look though
03:59:51 <rubyruy> BEEP BEEP HOOOONK HOOOOONK
04:00:16 <Aali> most vehicle sets replace those sound effects though
04:00:21 <rubyruy> ... the novelty wore off in 1998 :p
04:00:41 <rubyruy> i guess major improvements would have to come as a source code change
04:00:50 <rubyruy> acceleration sounds, choo choo noises etc
04:01:06 <Aali> thats why i love the tropic refurbishment set
04:01:16 <Eddi|zuHause> *dingdingding* *hoonk hoonk* *wooosh* <- the traditional sound of "desync error" ;)
04:01:27 <Aali> no high-pitched noises, just a low dignified tone
04:02:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the sound of level crossings is annoying, but it is an important indicator that you left the game unpaused in the background :p
04:02:53 <Aali> you know you left the game unpaused if you're anywhere near a sawmill
04:05:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the worst sound ever is the reuse of the crashing sound for the gravel pit in PBI
04:05:35 <rubyruy> oh i've been wanting this for a looooooong time: is there a key for closing windows?
04:05:46 <rubyruy> preferably the one under my mouse pointer - or barring that, all of them
04:05:50 <Eddi|zuHause> god i hate the associations i get there every time i hear that sound
04:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> rubyruy: the del key closes all windows that are not stickied
04:06:24 <Eddi|zuHause> and ctrl+del closes even the stickied ones
04:06:28 <rubyruy> no shortcut to just close 1?
04:06:45 <Eddi|zuHause> rubyruy: how would you decide which one?
04:06:52 <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: ah yes, that one is annoying too, i always think i accidentally dynamited something every time it goes off
04:06:57 <rubyruy> the one under the mouse pointer
04:07:05 <rubyruy> game already has a concept of autofocus in a way
04:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the game has practically no concept of focus...
04:07:44 <Aali> it has no concept of focus without patches
04:08:52 <rubyruy> hmm... well it should still be able to figure out which window is under the pointer nay?
04:09:13 <rubyruy> like surely there's some code to figure this out so as to know which window's code to delegate the command to or somesuch
04:09:17 <Aali> and those patches only make it possible to have several text boxes open at the same time, it does not care about windows AFAIK
04:09:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's a useless idea...
04:09:29 <rubyruy> how do you manage window clutter?
04:09:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i've moved the mouse to the "X" far faster than moved the hand from the mouse to the keyboard
04:10:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i rarely have the need to use the "del" key
04:10:29 <Aali> usually, you only need to close a few windows, or you only need to keep a few windows, in which case the current model works fine
04:11:15 <rubyruy> well usually i play with 1 hand on mouse 1 hand on keyboard
04:11:26 <rubyruy> around the OS i use Ctrl/Cmd+W to close windows quickly
04:11:34 <Eddi|zuHause> typically, when my view gets too full, i have like 1 depot window and 2 vehicle windows, with half a dozen of subwindows open. then a few well placed clicks in the parent windows will fix that
04:11:57 <rubyruy> well there's stuff like having a whole bunch of new vehicles open
04:12:12 <rubyruy> which are shared ordered anyway so you didn't even need their window in the first place
04:12:23 <rubyruy> i guess the del thing will help with that though so i'll see if it still bugs me once i start using it
04:13:13 <Eddi|zuHause> problem with the sticky button is, when i change the build toolbar, the sticky button of that one disappears
04:13:28 <Eddi|zuHause> as in: it gets lifted
04:33:39 <rubyruy> can 1 way roads seriously not have corners?
04:33:46 <rubyruy> or am i just building them wrong?
04:36:14 <rubyruy> actually anything trucks they refit
04:36:30 <rubyruy> this is really really really awsome - whole new game
04:36:51 <Aali> you only need two one-way road tiles
04:36:58 <rubyruy> woops wrong channel for that img
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05:29:56 <ccfreak2k> rubyruy, is it articulated realistically?
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06:43:07 <George> Belugas: Unfortunately we need to take time zones into account. SPb is UTC+3
06:46:59 <rubyruy> does ECS limit good acceptance in towns?
06:47:14 <rubyruy> or are only industries demand capped?
06:48:06 <George> Houses do not have acceptance limit. Amount of goods a house can accept is unlimited
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07:16:23 <Celestar> Happened yesterday in Munich
07:16:34 <Celestar> what was the damn driver doing?
07:18:11 <Celestar> and Munich should finally be converted to the through station
07:36:50 <petern> maybe his brakes failed :p
07:37:37 <Celestar> it's an ICE, they NEVER fail .P
07:37:55 *** Yeggzzz is now known as Yeggstry
07:38:49 <Celestar> and why is AMD incapable of producing a competitive CPU for the desktop market?
07:38:54 <rubyruy> are GRFs 'decompilable' ?
07:39:17 <rubyruy> the ECS fix for newships forgot to include fish to the bulk freighter's cargo list
07:39:22 <rubyruy> pretty much makes ECS + ships a no go
07:39:28 <rubyruy> wondering if i can just fix it myself
07:40:40 <Celestar> The new Core i7 in its slowest incarnation is twice as fast as the fastest Phenom :P
07:42:29 <Celestar> only the cheapest mainboard for them costs around 300 bucks at the present time
07:50:08 <petern> oh, i7 is available now?
07:50:54 <petern> phenom struggled to keep up with core 2 anyway, heh
07:52:11 <petern> and triple core... was is that about?
07:52:52 <petern> a way to squeeze more out of poor yields, i guess
07:57:20 <petern> hmm, sounds like core i7 will stomp over core 2 as well
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08:34:40 <dih> a Player just joined my server, i have no idea what he/she/it did, but the result was
08:34:43 <dih> src/string.cpp:58: char* strecat(char*, const ch
08:34:46 <dih> ar*, const char*): Assertion `dst <= last' failed.
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08:35:07 <dih> src/string.cpp:58: char* strecat(char*, const char*, const char*): Assertion `dst <= last' failed.
08:36:26 <FauxFaux> I expect that's entirely meaningless without a stack trace or a testcase, which I guess you can't provide. :)
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08:53:06 <Aali> not entirely meaningless
08:53:14 <Aali> but not entirely useful, either
08:53:27 <Aali> do you still have the crash.dmp?
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08:56:23 <dih> Ali: i dont get a crash.dmp
08:57:05 <Aali> i still have a pretty good idea of what happened though
08:57:22 <Aali> try creating a new company on that server
08:57:41 <dih> i will not try connecting to my server
08:57:47 <dih> feel free to do it if you like
09:00:52 <Aali> fine, i'll just look it up :P
09:03:37 <Aali> under the right (wrong) circumstances, you can only have one company
09:04:34 <dih> Aali: the game will be back at 10:20
09:05:17 <dih> and what do you mean by 'circumstances', i am quite curious
09:05:25 <Aali> it does a strecat in network_server.cpp, the destination string is correct but the safety check is all wrong
09:05:52 <Aali> so it basically ends up checking against company 0's string every time
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09:24:39 <Celestar> petern: dunno when the i7 will be available
10:12:53 <Yexo> automatic translation ftw :)
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10:22:51 <Celestar> dih: what the HELL is that?
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10:40:28 <dih> i love the anser of that forum post
10:45:03 <Ammler> dih: is the license thing still not solved?
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11:00:54 <Celestar> this Ypsilanti-mess is really getting a national embarrassment
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11:42:23 <Belugas> George: right. and i'm at UCT -5. RIght now, just out of the shower, preparing for leaving to work
11:46:15 <George> I suppose 6 hours later would be the only time for us to see each other (today is the holiday here, but on the other days I'd de at work at this time and I have no time for IRC there). Do you have IRC at work?
11:49:25 <petern> belugas is seeing me, not you!
11:51:16 * SpComb prepares for leaving to work as well
11:51:22 <SpComb> except it's almost two in the afternoon here
12:03:25 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r14560 /trunk/src/ (network/network_server.cpp unix.cpp): -Fix [FS#2396](r14555): lengthof() can't be simply replaced by lastof() in some cases (part by Aali)
12:04:27 <petern> skidd13's quality control, eh?
12:06:04 <SmatZ> there should be more, yes :)
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13:01:59 <Korenn> petern = peter1138 on forums?
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14:03:24 <Belugas> rest assure, petern, you are the only one i want to see :D
14:04:20 <Belugas> and apart you and glx and TrueBrain, i've talked to no one eitehr :)
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14:27:13 <Belugas> by the way, George, regarding our nick problem (if you have not registered it already), you could kill 2 birds with one stone:
14:27:40 <Belugas> choose a nick that tells you're THAT George-> George_ECS
14:27:45 <Belugas> or something like that :)
14:28:04 <Belugas> so it's quite evident who you are really!
14:31:34 <petern> oh, the sun is smelling again
14:32:47 <Belugas> i'm still blowing up your school ;)
14:33:36 <petern> i might need new speakers for the car :(
14:33:58 <petern> got a bit enthusiastic...
14:34:44 <Belugas> it's indeed easy to be :D
14:35:22 <George> Personally I'm not happy with such a solution. If I'd choose a nick that is different from my name, I'd select "Meowth" instead, and a rare user would identify me that way :( although a good search could allow such identification http://george.zernebok.net/saves/George/info.html
14:35:24 <George> So I'd wait until registered owner of the Nick George will appear :)
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14:38:26 <Belugas> but there is very little chance he is going to appear in this channel
14:38:31 <George> irc://irc.oftc.net/George,isnick
14:39:35 <mikegrb> George: good chance you can have the nick george, just ask in #oftc
14:40:33 <mikegrb> well he hasn't been around in 8 months
14:40:39 <mikegrb> normally that can be dropped no problem
14:40:57 <Doorslammer> I dont see what all of the fuss is about really
14:41:41 <George> mikegrb: Whom should I ask to do this and how?
14:41:46 <Doorslammer> All you would have to do is say "Hi, Im George of ECS fame". We will remember you, no matter the name used, we aren't goldfish you know
14:41:58 <mikegrb> just join #oftc and ask if the nick George can be dropped there
14:44:59 <George> mikegrb: [17:44] <Peng_> He was active for a year.
14:45:03 <SmatZ> mmm we have an OFTC server admin here 8-)
14:45:10 <mikegrb> yeah but peng is just a user ;)
14:45:41 <mikegrb> we are discussing it in the network staff channel
14:47:10 <mikegrb> only issue was that the guy used the nick for a year
14:47:27 <mikegrb> normaly if the nick was active for 3 months and then last used 6 months ago, it can be dropped
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15:00:07 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i know that my apperance is that impressive.
15:00:19 <Eddi|zuHause> but you shall not fear, as i mean no harm
15:01:49 <ccfreak2k> I'm pretty unimpressed. :|
15:03:57 <MoW|Switchx> you can buy Sid Meier's Railroads!, Railroad Tycoon 3, Railroad Tycoon II Platinum on steam
15:04:05 <Doorslammer> Must say I feel rather disappointed too
15:05:18 <Eddi|zuHause> TTD is not sid meier's
15:07:18 <MoW|Switchx> microprose is death
15:07:54 <MoW|Switchx> the deluxe version is dos or win ?
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15:15:41 <bufalo1973> one question (I hope it's not too obvious): is there a free replacement pack for the original TT files?
15:32:35 <DorpsGek> Ammler: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 18 hours, 42 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: <Zuu> TrueBrain: That looks interesting, thank you.
15:33:04 <bufalo1973> I'll have to wait then (like everyone else) :)
15:33:25 <Ammler> bufalo1973: well, it is useable
15:34:28 <Ammler> it has no monorail and maglev, afaik
15:34:48 <Ammler> but there are many free trainsets available
15:35:03 <bufalo1973> are they on the site?
15:35:13 <Ammler> grfcrawler.tt-forums.net?search=trains
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16:02:40 <AgentLeMan> hello everys body :o)
16:04:43 <AgentLeMan> im looking for something. uhm... well, i bet you wont like it but... its a graphics-mod that is LESS graphics tfor openttd
16:06:47 <AgentLeMan> ( all those shy ones of you, who fear to be talking in the open, you can just query me also )
16:08:21 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd
16:09:05 * Rubidium has no clue what AgentLeMan is after
16:09:40 *** welshdragon2 has joined #openttd
16:10:22 <Rubidium> or does he want to play with the 8bpp-debug blitter?
16:10:37 <AgentLeMan> no, i just want to get rid of the railings of the tracks
16:10:55 <AgentLeMan> but either i cant find such grf, or dont know how do to that myself
16:11:42 <Rubidium> like when under the "wrench" you disable "full detail"?
16:13:45 <AgentLeMan> switching off full detail only disables the display of those railings?
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16:14:34 <Aali> AgentLeMan: you want the no fences grf?
16:14:56 <AgentLeMan> Aali, taht was my question about, yes.
16:15:20 <Aali> shouldn't be that hard to find
16:16:44 *** welshdragon2 is now known as welshdragon
16:17:11 <AgentLeMan> thank you, Aali. you pointed me into the right direction, instead of just kinda-helping
16:19:45 <AgentLeMan> and it really does exactly, what i want :o))
16:20:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yay for people asking the wrong question and then bitching around why they don't get the right answer
16:22:08 <AgentLeMan> smirks if it was so wrong, tell me, why then alia could find out so easily, what iwas asking?
16:25:42 <Rubidium> AgentLeMan, it's the difference between: "I want less graphics, how do I do it?" and "I want to get rid of the fences near railroads?"
16:26:29 <AgentLeMan> i agree to that, Rubidium.
16:26:32 <Rubidium> you asked the former and we had to ask quite a bit before you asked what you really wanted to ask (i.e. the latter)
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16:33:11 <Aali> same country? the guy is german (or atleast his hostmask is) :P
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16:39:32 <Belugas> i was just guessing randomly...
16:39:49 <Belugas> i'm not in ther position to scrutinize every possibility :P
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17:23:37 <AgentLeMan> thanks for help then :o) waves
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17:23:57 <Rubidium> looks like Belugas has been watching 16:9 content on a 4:3 screen without the "free" blackness
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17:25:29 <ln> we're operating within normal parameters
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19:26:05 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r14561 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Feature(ette)[FS#2334]: Add result 0x0F to callbacks 0x29/0x35. (Yexo)
19:26:50 <ln> wtf kind of a commit message is that?
19:27:47 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 17 hours, 22 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <Bjarni> goodnight (what's left of it anyway)
19:27:51 <Sacro> we have autoreplace bugs
19:28:31 <Belugas> that's a perfectly legit message, ln. For those who know ;) and who know where to search for
19:28:40 <SmatZ> Sacro: ask frosch123 then
19:28:40 <Belugas> and who care about it :)
19:28:55 <Sacro> frosch123: you know about autoreplace?
19:29:07 <frosch123> in nightlies yes, in 0.6 no
19:31:27 <ln> Belugas: it's still a silly commit message, way too undescriptive.
19:31:52 <Yexo> ln: just read FS#2334 and you'll know what it is about
19:32:00 <Yexo> hint: it's not interesting
19:32:47 <Belugas> ln, nly for those who do not know what it's all about
19:32:53 <ln> Yexo: i'd argue commit messages should be understandable without reading FS and without having a thorough knowledge of the code.
19:33:33 <Yexo> I'd agree with that for most commits, but this is a commit only interesting for newgrf authors, and they will understand what it is about
19:34:20 <Belugas> ln, if i've told you that now, grf authors can specify the exact amount of production level while doing monthly or random industry production changes callbacks, would have it made much of a difference?
19:41:04 <Wolf01> when newobjects will be implemented (if) they might be like "Feature: added support for property 0x08" or whatever is the newobjects property
19:41:36 <Yexo> just like it was with aquaduct support
19:41:43 <Wolf01> s/they/the commit message
19:42:54 <Wolf01> nice compression "the"+=zip(" commit message","y")
19:45:41 <Belugas> iirc, newindustries was about as "cryptic"
19:46:12 <Belugas> but hey, you are all supposed to be big boyz now, who can work out things by themselves
19:46:18 <Belugas> well... most of yu are..
19:46:26 <Belugas> there are still some BABIES
19:46:37 <Belugas> who need to have it all cooked in the mouth!
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20:03:43 <DaleStan> frosch123, Yexo: Which production message does CB29/35 result 0F display?
20:05:20 <DaleStan> Also, the code says "high word of register 100h", but the spec says "third byte of register 100h". Which is it?
20:05:31 <Wolf01> hahaha @ welshdragon :D
20:05:51 <frosch123> 0D and 0E also do not display a news message
20:06:10 <frosch123> and we prefer the specs version :)
20:07:16 <Yexo> DaleStan: the code clamps the high word to a value between 0...128, so the highest byte is never used
20:07:39 <DaleStan> But if the high word is set to 100h, then that clamps to 128, not 4.
20:07:43 <frosch123> Yexo: that is not true
20:08:14 <Yexo> DaleStan: I overlooked that case
20:08:45 <Yexo> frosch123: so what should it be?
20:09:07 <frosch123> so there is no point in using bits 24..31
20:09:09 <DaleStan> I say third byte too, leaving the fourth for something else.
20:09:14 <frosch123> they are reserved and should be set to 0
20:12:34 <DaleStan> 0D .. 0F do display a custom message if present, correct?
20:24:02 <Char> you know what would be great?
20:24:03 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r14562 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r14561): 8 bits are enough. The rest stays reserved.
20:24:17 <Char> a patch that color-codes the railway lines by their usage
20:24:31 <Char> green for < 3 trains / month
20:24:39 <Char> yellow for 3-10 trains / month
20:24:46 <Char> orange for 10-20 trains / month
20:24:52 <Char> red for > 20 trains / month
20:25:06 <frosch123> search for "grass growth on unused tracks" on the forums
20:25:20 <Char> such a thing does exist?
20:26:05 <Char> but that is only for unused tracks
20:26:12 <Char> would be nice to have a coding for used ones, too
20:27:35 <SmatZ> there were patches that implemented train counter for waypoints
20:30:47 <Belugas> yeah, and the waypont gui came from one of those
20:31:05 <Belugas> so... it means that there is VERY little to add to have the functionality
20:31:21 <Belugas> and I know a big o.zip file who has that (iirc)
20:32:08 <Aali> planetmaker was working on a train counter patch, no?
20:32:16 <Aali> or atleast toying with the concept
20:32:42 <planetmaker> Aali: yes. The old tracks / grass on tracks patch *could* be modified such
20:32:51 <planetmaker> But actually it's difficult. Too little space
20:33:25 <Aali> only one byte left if you allow signals, right?
20:33:50 <planetmaker> So, only statistics for short time intervals are possible or you could just use the number which that patch already has: increasing a counter every few ticks and decreasing it with every usage.
20:34:09 <planetmaker> yeah. We might get 1 1/2 bytes. But that's all you have.
20:34:45 <frosch123> if you would not change the grass growth amount every time a train or time passes, but would use some random, you could live with a lot less bits
20:35:08 <planetmaker> frosch123: I'm not sure I understand you.
20:35:30 <Aali> welshdragon: whats your point?
20:35:50 <welshdragon> Aali, i was showing how crap my playing style is
20:35:50 <frosch123> well, you can either reduce grass after 10 trains passed, or you can reduce it with a chance on 10% when one train passes
20:36:07 <Aali> welshdragon: right, carry on then :P
20:36:13 <planetmaker> frosch123: he. true. That's an idea.
20:36:16 <frosch123> in the first case you have to count from 1 to 10 somewhere, in the second you have to care of desyncs
20:36:33 <planetmaker> making it depend upon chance... hm.
20:36:44 <planetmaker> But desyncs are no issue, if everything else goes right :)
20:36:49 <welshdragon> Aali, if you want to photoshop an alternative, be my guest :P
20:37:05 <Aali> of course, you can sacrifice precision
20:37:14 <Aali> but you still only have 8 bits of information
20:37:29 <planetmaker> Aali: if you want to sacrifice precision, it's feasable. Doing that by using chance is a good idea indeed.
20:38:00 <planetmaker> That's fine. But with a chance approach you can still count each train - statistically :P
20:38:11 <planetmaker> frosch123: thanks for the idea :)
20:38:47 <Aali> i guess 256 possible states is plenty, if you can distribute it evenly
20:39:15 <planetmaker> It's 2560 trains, with 10% chance - sufficient for a year or so.
20:39:19 *** sigmund has joined #openttd
20:39:35 * frosch123 likes supplies other with work :p
20:39:53 <Aali> i was thinking you could measure the relative usage
20:39:56 <planetmaker> but you still have the problem to store the value of the previous year when you want yearly statistics.
20:39:57 *** questionmark has joined #openttd
20:40:13 <Aali> but exact numbers are useful too, i guess
20:40:15 <planetmaker> :D frosch123, feels nice, eh? :)
20:40:33 <planetmaker> Aali: relative usage is already done with the current patch.
20:40:49 *** yorick is now known as Guest1341
20:40:49 *** questionmark is now known as yorick
20:41:09 <Aali> yeah but it has only 4 states, and they dont adapt to usage
20:41:11 <Yexo> planetmaker: are yearly statistics needed for *every* piece of track? You can also choose to only store statistics for some tiles, like waypoints and stations
20:41:17 <planetmaker> but if you want to dive into it, Aali : go for it :)
20:41:31 <Aali> i too like giving others work to do :P
20:41:54 <planetmaker> My time is very limited for the rest of the year and chances are good I won't have time to look at it before 2009.
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20:42:37 <Aali> but yes, i'm thinking waypoints for exact numbers and then just measure everything else relatively
20:43:29 <Aali> do waypoints have off-map storage?
20:44:52 <Aali> sweet, then you could do all sorts of statistics at them
20:55:56 <planetmaker> Yexo: about the definition of "needed", of course, long debates may be held
20:56:25 <planetmaker> but to see how efficient certain track layouts are, a tile-wise number is quite nice :)
20:57:02 <planetmaker> but to me it seems like a patch which I don't want to propose for trunk inclusion :)
20:57:38 <Aali> lets just make a patch that counts how many times trains have to slow down/stop at a tile
20:58:18 <planetmaker> it's far too much memory for too little gain :)
20:58:31 <Yexo> planetmaker: I was talking about the yearly statistics, as I doubt there is much use for them. Of course for statistics about the usage (whether it is last month, last year or another timespan) is useful per tile (or at least track segment)
20:59:06 <planetmaker> Yexo: sure, the time span is also something which needs discussion. Maybe monthly is sufficient. But even then 8 bit is not much
20:59:17 <planetmaker> if you count every train
20:59:31 <Yexo> 255 trains per month? that seems enough
20:59:38 <Rubidium> 256 trains on one tile per month?
20:59:48 <Yexo> it may not be for 2-tile maglev trains
20:59:50 <Rubidium> only the other hand...
20:59:59 <Belugas> not sure yearly stats is usefull at all
21:00:32 <Rubidium> 8 bits is only enough for counting up 15 trains
21:00:48 <Rubidium> cause there can be two tracks on a tile
21:01:38 <Yexo> sure, but even with two counter it'll fail on crossing tiles
21:02:15 <Rubidium> hmm, yeah you ofcourse needs stats for each trackbit
21:02:26 <Rubidium> maybe add average waiting time for signals too?
21:02:35 <Aali> so its probably easier to stick to per-tile counters
21:02:43 <Rubidium> and a moving average of the speed
21:03:05 <Yexo> that one is doable, as you can store that per vehicle :p
21:03:19 <Rubidium> Yexo: per vehicle per tile?
21:03:47 * Belugas wonders how usefull would be a train-counter-object, someting totally devoted to that task
21:04:13 <frosch123> or per VirtTileCoord
21:04:14 * Rubidium wonders how useful train counts actually are
21:04:18 <Yexo> Belugas: what is wrong with using waypoints for that?
21:04:35 <Rubidium> oh... the track is not busy at all; only two trains a month
21:05:08 <Yexo> it'd be very usefull information for an AI!
21:05:23 <Belugas> waypoints serve to somehting else. it's not made for counting. therefor, anything that visually wold be required would feel like a hack, to me at least
21:05:32 <Rubidium> or is it busy as the trains are going an average of 10 km/h and are 100 pieces long
21:06:08 <planetmaker> Rubidium definitely has a point. Which hasn't been addressed so far at all :P
21:06:51 <Rubidium> he look, I've stopped the train and now the track isn't busy anymore ;)
21:07:01 <Aali> still, getting a number on just how many trains your station/junction/whatever can handle would be nice
21:07:13 <planetmaker> Rubidium: that's something which is ok IMO.
21:07:34 <Rubidium> then what use it is?
21:07:37 <Yexo> maybe the percentage of time a piece of track is reserved by a train can indicate how busy a tile is
21:08:04 <Rubidium> the efficient areas glow bright red because many trains are running, but the troublesome areas are green because trains are waiting and such
21:08:13 <planetmaker> it will mean something completely different for two-tile-trains than for 20 tile trains
21:08:30 <Aali> knowing how busy a tile is is easy, just look at it
21:08:34 <planetmaker> Rubidium: that's what sort-of the current patch does.
21:08:36 <frosch123> Yexo: did you consider to analyse the cargo when a vehicle arrives at its destination? i.e. cargo knows its age
21:08:40 <planetmaker> Gras is where there are few
21:08:42 <Aali> counting how many trains are going into your station is tedious
21:09:38 <planetmaker> Numbers would be nice sometimes to tune or evaluate your network or parts thereof, comparing different designs.
21:09:40 <Yexo> frosch123: there is no such thing as a 'callback for cargo arrival'. So that would mean checking every vehicle to see if it's near it's destination every so often
21:09:42 <Rubidium> why is it important to know the number of trains?
21:10:03 <planetmaker> Rubidium: assessment of efficiency. Of throughput
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21:10:11 <Rubidium> you want to know where the busy spots are
21:10:15 <frosch123> didn't rondje sell vehicles when they arrived at their destination?
21:10:21 <Yexo> planetmaker: why would the time a tile is reserved have a different meaning for 2-tile trains then for 20-tile trains?
21:10:33 <Rubidium> not how busy they are
21:10:50 <Yexo> frosch123: it does, but it can only handle +-500 vehicle with that strategy (and that is with AI set to full speed)
21:10:53 <planetmaker> Yexo: a tile stays reserved until the train passed. You talked about "percent time a tile is reserved"
21:11:06 <Yexo> and it doesn't build it's own road routes in that time, which is very expensive
21:11:55 <planetmaker> Rubidium: why wouldn't I want to know _how_ busy they are?
21:12:03 <Yexo> planetmaker: I know that, but I think it's an indication of the capacity of the line. It also works if you stop a train, because the tile will remain reserved
21:12:03 <frosch123> well, but you could observe a single train on its travel, before adding a new vehicle for the same route
21:12:49 <planetmaker> yexo: that's true, for sure :)
21:12:52 <Yexo> frosch123: that is possible, but would require major restructuring in my AI, and that is not worth the effort atm
21:13:41 <Yexo> and there is no foolproof way of following a single vehicle, because users can mess with it (only via cheating, but still)
21:13:54 <Char> did anyone of you ever manage to get a rating of 0% at any station?
21:14:20 <Yexo> I never tried to, so I don't know
21:17:22 <Prof_Frink> Yes, accident is the easiest way to drop a station's rating to 0%.
21:18:07 <Prof_Frink> Have a train crash at/near your station and watch the rating fall through the floor
21:19:13 <Belugas> fall ... through the roof... it was on the second floor...
21:19:23 <Belugas> and got o the first...
21:39:50 <Sacro> There is no idea what is going to be in 0.7.0.
21:39:50 <Sacro> (More information: Roadmap 0.7)
21:40:58 <planetmaker> cargodest + noai :) ?
21:44:32 <Belugas> somewhere this year or next year
21:46:47 <Char> is there a way to make trains prefer certain routes other than placing PBS facing the wrong direction?
21:47:35 <SmatZ> build a level crossing or place a 1-tile station
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21:47:47 <SmatZ> bridges can be used too
21:51:08 <Char> the route to be preferred actually has a lot of bridges :P
21:52:00 <Char> my railroad system is getting a little complicated at the moment....
21:56:10 *** rubyruy has joined #openttd
21:59:35 <planetmaker> good night Belugas :)
22:01:33 *** welshdragon2 has joined #openttd
22:10:20 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
22:19:27 *** welshdragon2 is now known as welshdragon
22:36:37 <TrueBrain> ugly sight, I tell you
22:37:12 <rortom> ah, TrueBrain you got the name of the 70m climging hall?
22:37:32 <TrueBrain> forgot all about it :(
22:37:36 <rortom> you said i should remind you ;)
22:37:42 <Prof_Frink> Funny name for a wall ;)
23:06:59 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
23:09:48 <welshdragon> you suck guys for money :P
23:09:51 <Char> when your delivered cargo amount drops by 50% within half a year and you got no idea why
23:10:04 <Char> welshdragon: well not exactly.... i take girls
23:10:43 <Char> well, however you call that
23:11:15 <TrueBrain> clearly, you don't know indeed
23:11:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but... i have never actually seen you with a girl
23:11:40 <Eddi|zuHause> suspicious, don't you think?
23:12:40 <Char> i guess that having ~40 trains service the same station which has only 3 platforms was not the best idea ever
23:12:57 <TrueBrain> not for getting girls, indeed
23:13:41 <Char> thats kind of another topic
23:13:59 <Char> you seem to want to speak about that... is there anything that bothers you?
23:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea why people always say "x trains for y platforms" while that has no indication about how many trains actually visit the station _simultaneously_
23:14:29 <Eddi|zuHause> because 40 trains on a 50 tile route is much different than 40 trains on a 500 tile route
23:14:44 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: depends on the TL ;)
23:14:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and 40 3 tile trains are much different than 40 20 tile trains
23:15:27 <Char> that it is a coal station
23:15:37 <Char> and they are waiting for full load
23:15:43 <Char> and i got two feeder stations
23:16:07 <Char> which used to feed from coal mines which were at 100% (ultimate) producing ~1000 tons of coal a month
23:16:19 <Char> one of the feeder coal mines exhausted
23:16:49 <Char> which caused a tailback so long
23:17:03 <Char> that it congests one of my major lines at the other end of the map
23:17:27 <Char> is there a way to remove only parts of a station?
23:17:48 <Rubidium> yeah, with a Volvo BM50 or something similar
23:18:52 <Char> you can't be serious, can you?
23:20:11 <Eddi|zuHause> press the 'R' key when building a station
23:21:56 <Rubidium> or A 9 R in that order
23:22:26 <TrueBrain> Char: can you ask question not answerd N time on forum and wiki?
23:27:38 <Eddi|zuHause> brand new idea: sleep!
23:29:36 <Eddi|zuHause> we haven't worked out the details yet :p
23:32:30 <Korenn> Eddi|zuHause: post it on the suggestions forum and try and explain what it adds to gameplay
23:37:22 <Char> TrueBrain: yes i can, however it is pretty hard to find what you are looking for in the forum :/
23:37:50 <Char> i got another one but now i am afraid of asking
23:38:24 <Char> but thanks anyways for the answer ;)
23:42:30 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14563 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_industries.cpp newgrf_industrytiles.cpp): (log message trimmed)
23:42:30 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2395]: in the case that an industry NewGRF, a shared TTDPatch and
23:42:30 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: OpenTTD feature with it's origin in TTDPatch to replace/add/change vehicles
23:42:30 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: (including e.g. maximum speed, graphics and introduction year), stations,
23:42:30 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: bridges, industries, town houses or any other graphics used by either
23:42:31 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: TTDPatch or OpenTTD, would tell that building an industry is okay, which
23:42:33 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: is queried using a so-called callback that allows the NewGRF author to
23:44:14 <Aali> that log message is quite long..
23:45:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd assume it's a response to the discussion about "add feature XY" discussion above :p
23:45:29 <Eddi|zuHause> "overcompensation" :p
23:46:14 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r14563 /trunk/src (newgrf_industries.cpp newgrf_industrytiles.cpp) (2008-11-03 23:42:07 UTC)
23:46:15 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Fix [FS#2395]: in the case that an industry NewGRF, a shared TTDPatch and
23:46:16 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: OpenTTD feature with it's origin in TTDPatch to replace/add/change vehicles
23:46:17 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: (including e.g. maximum speed, graphics and introduction year), stations,
23:46:18 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: bridges, industries, town houses or any other graphics used by either
23:46:20 <TrueBrain> I hope he realises what he did ..
23:46:29 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Error: You haven't asked me a command; perhaps you want to see someone else's more. To do so, call this command with that person's nick.
23:46:47 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: DorpsGek refuses to send more data ;)
23:47:19 <Eddi|zuHause> your bot is broken
23:47:20 <DaleStan> "what he did" being "write a commit message that's longer than the diff"?
23:48:22 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: no, your expetation of the bot are too high
23:49:04 <glx> but for most commands there is a @more when the text is too long
23:49:16 <TrueBrain> but this isn't a normal command ;)
23:49:23 <TrueBrain> as 'normal' would mean it would put everything on a single line
23:49:23 <Eddi|zuHause> sorry for expecting a unified interface :p
23:49:29 <glx> of course in this case it's not a too long text
23:49:50 <glx> it's a spam kill prevention
23:50:55 <svippy> Ah, #openttd, the only sane channel on my list.
23:50:56 <TrueBrain> DaleStan: wrong "he"
23:51:09 <svippy> Except Sacro, obviously.
23:51:31 <svippy> Well, thanks, Captain Obvious.
23:51:45 <TrueBrain> Your welcome. Let me send you the bill
23:51:56 <svippy> Next you'll tell me I am writing messages through an IRC channel.
23:52:09 <TrueBrain> DaleStan: indeed, that he
23:52:11 <Rubidium> DaleStan: there were some people complaining that "implement action 0 feature 1 property 2" isn't clear for some people
23:53:09 <Char> wow.... i just spent 1.2 billion on new vehicles in < 3 months
23:53:27 <DaleStan> Anyone for whom that isn't clear doesn't need to know.
23:53:57 <TrueBrain> DaleStan: now you confuse us more ...
23:54:04 <TrueBrain> we need to write more clear log messages
23:54:10 <TrueBrain> which person should we follow and believe?
23:54:25 <svippy> I cannot tolerate the other channels, TrueBrain, I have a guy who supports Palin (scary!), a girl who's an artist (need I say more?), some guy keeps making love to Windows 7 (talk about foreplay) and some guy who thinks Monkey Island 4 is a great game.
23:54:29 <Char> Rubidium: still, that means that i am basically back to 0
23:54:35 <glx> newgrf support is for newgrf writers
23:54:46 <TrueBrain> svippy: welcome to sanity :)
23:54:47 <Rubidium> Char: in Zimbabwe one could easily spend 1.2 billion for a used car
23:54:59 <DaleStan> I never said that the messages were unclear.
23:55:21 <glx> we never said you said it :)
23:55:57 <svippy> TrueBrain: So far this Futurama wiki have kept me sane.
23:56:07 <TrueBrain> and that is sane ... how?
23:56:12 <glx> and for me "implement action 0 feature 1 property 2" is clear enough, if someone wants more details there's a wiki
23:56:25 <Eddi|zuHause> for certain definitions of "sane" :p
23:56:42 <svippy> TrueBrain: Management. Treating sitcom elements as fact. That is actually quite a lot of work.
23:58:41 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: if i adjust the decimal to a reasonable point, and this would be 12,43€, but i wouldn't want to dig my portemonnaie for 255 microcents
23:59:14 <TrueBrain> I have a few of those!
23:59:15 <svippy> TrueBrain: Trust me, it is what keeps me sane.
23:59:24 <TrueBrain> svippy: find an other hobby :)
23:59:26 <svippy> Also, TrueBrain, Futurama is awesome.
23:59:36 <svippy> And it's written "another".
23:59:45 <svippy> I have plenty of hobbies.
23:59:54 <svippy> Are you dissing Futurama, TrueBrain?
continue to next day ⏵
