IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-10-03
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03:30:23 <ccfreak2k> There were like 30 trains stacked up and stuck.
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06:58:53 <boekabart> Is there a function to calculate the 'exact' height somewhere in the middle of a tile?
06:59:16 <boekabart> smth like GetTileHeight( tilex, tiley, tile_pixel_x, tile_pixel_y) or so?
06:59:48 <boekabart> ... one that is smarter than just linearly interpolating the corner heights ...
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07:06:20 <petern> Poor Ammler, still doesn't get it.
07:07:13 <petern> boekabart, GetSlopeZ(x, y)
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07:44:36 * petern applies glue to Eddi|zuHause
07:56:29 <Ammler> petern: don't get what?
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08:19:42 <petern> Ammler, in that OpenTTD version is not necessarily the same string as the package version.
08:21:05 <Ammler> petern: it is obvious for you and maybe it was for me, but it doesn't need to be obvious for external packager...
08:21:40 <Ammler> at least it wasn't for the suse builder, I hope, he is able to handle that next time.
08:23:08 <Ammler> well, I wouldn't package testing builds anyway.
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08:48:21 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i get a message about announcing industry closure when the industry is already closed?
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08:50:57 <Ammler> maybe there were multiple news at same time and the message was postponded...
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08:52:33 <Brianetta> How does one create Makefile.bundle?
08:52:41 <Brianetta> I can't make install because that file doesn't exist
08:57:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: but not for an entire month, especially not with daylength 8
08:57:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: shouldn't ./configure take care of that?
08:58:07 <Ammler> configure needs makefile.bundle to create makefile
08:58:26 <Brianetta> Ammler: Apparently not. I can delete Makefile, and configure will still recreate it.
08:58:37 <Brianetta> It still builds openttd, as well.
08:58:43 <Brianetta> Makefile.bundle.in exists
08:58:46 <Brianetta> but not Makefile.bundle
09:01:47 <Eddi|zuHause> *.in are the template files from the * file should be generated
09:01:59 <Brianetta> Something needs to process them
09:02:13 <Brianetta> I don't know what, though
09:02:21 <Brianetta> I've tried deleting conifg.cache
09:05:53 <Eddi|zuHause> well, then i have no further idea what could be the problem
09:06:23 <Brianetta> Neither do I, which is exactly why I came on here.
09:09:14 <Brianetta> URL: svn://svn.openttd.org/tags/0.6.3
09:09:14 <Brianetta> Makefile:REVISION = 0.6.2
09:09:14 <Brianetta> readme.txt:Release version: 0.6.2
09:09:27 <Brianetta> I think that the tag is basically ballsed up.
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09:11:38 <Celestar> so much for global warming. it snows
09:11:55 <Brianetta> Global warming is the macro effect
09:12:03 <Brianetta> locally, you can get cooling
09:12:05 <Celestar> I wasn't dead serious you know (=
09:12:43 <Brianetta> If global warming really takes off, the Gulf Stream might divert, meaning a reduction of temperatures in the UK and a possible revival of our ski industry.
09:13:08 <Celestar> er Brianetta .. you need mountains for a ski industry :P
09:13:30 <boekabart> scotland has high enough hills I suppose
09:13:31 <Vikthor> Celestar:You are in Muenchen?
09:13:33 <Brianetta> Celestar: Would you like to take a stroll in our Cairngorm National park?
09:13:54 * Brianetta was on a mountain just a couple of days ago
09:13:57 <Celestar> Vikthor: plentifully south of it for the time being, not far from the Austrian border.
09:14:21 <Celestar> Brianetta: I dunno. My home's elevation is already 2000ft (=
09:14:32 <Brianetta> Like Germany isn't all the same kind of land as as Berlin, the UK isn't all flat either
09:14:41 <Vikthor> ohh so already almost in the Alps?
09:14:59 <Brianetta> If your elevation is 200 ft, the mountains must all appear to be exactly the same size as ours.
09:15:12 <Celestar> Vikthor: yeah, in Garmisch, visiting family.
09:15:22 <Brianetta> It's not height above sea level that counts; it's how much higher you have to trudge.
09:15:31 <Celestar> Brianetta: well, the Zugspitz is pretty much 10000ft
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09:15:42 <Brianetta> What's that in real metres?
09:16:02 <Vikthor> that explains it, I was bit worried because snow in Muenchen could mean we would get it in Prague later
09:16:08 <Brianetta> That's a respectable height, and far in excess of what's required to be called a mountain.
09:16:13 <Celestar> and one of the few mountains that can be reached by railway (=
09:16:31 <Brianetta> Snowdon has a railway to the top, as does Cairn Gorm
09:16:52 <Celestar> the Zugspitzbahn doesn't reach the top, only about 2600m or something
09:17:17 <Brianetta> should have chosen a shorter mountain
09:18:05 <Celestar> but it's 45 EUR a round trip :(
09:18:56 <Brianetta> Got married near to this camera position
09:19:46 <Brianetta> actually, that's not the valey I thought it was
09:20:11 <petern> Eddi|zuHause, ah right... well it feels like something fishy in Belugas' change :/
09:20:16 <Brianetta> Oh, it *is* that valley
09:20:24 <Brianetta> but on the other side of the water to where I was married (:
09:21:21 <petern> readme.txt:Release version: 0.6.3
09:21:29 <petern> Maybe your checkout is busted.
09:21:59 <Brianetta> petern: svn says the files are OK
09:23:17 <petern> Was it a clean checkout or a switch?
09:23:45 <Eddi|zuHause> <Celestar> the Zugspitzbahn doesn't reach the top, only about 2600m or something <- around here we have the Brockenbahn, it reaches the top, but that top isn't nearly as high ;)
09:24:51 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: it's a rag railways as well I guess?
09:25:13 <Eddi|zuHause> no... it's normal narrow gauge railway
09:26:14 <Celestar> Stuttgart has it's own rack railway :D
09:26:30 <Vikthor> the Pet??n funicular railway reaches the top, but that's only 327 m :D
09:26:57 <Vikthor> gradient is 29.5% though
09:27:41 * Celestar wonders what the maximum gradient is that normal railways use
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09:31:24 <Celestar> .. apparently 7.9% for normal gauge
09:32:11 <Eddi|zuHause> someone told me that in norway they advertise some railway as the highest gradient conventional rail
09:33:05 <Celestar> the 4% on Frankfurt - Köln can feel pretty badly :P
09:33:22 <welshdragon> the highest gradient conventional rail is in switzerland
09:35:38 <Vikthor> Celestar, yeah that's pretty interesting, was in Aachen by car in August and the track has almost the same profile as Autobahn
09:40:36 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: the Brokenbahn is still steam-only?
09:40:51 <Eddi|zuHause> it says "almost steam only"
09:41:09 <Celestar> dunno, I've just read about it somewhere years ago :P
09:41:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's a tourist attraction, i don't think they scrap the steam engines any time soon :p
09:42:31 <Eddi|zuHause> they have also some diesel railcars, but those are usually used on the other lines
09:42:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and they have some regauged diesel engines, which were mainly intended for freight traffic
09:43:12 <Eddi|zuHause> but i have seen them used on passenger trains, too
09:47:27 * Celestar is going to have an ICE3 ride tomorrow ;)
09:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the only time i used an ICE was when i got it for free...
09:48:18 <Celestar> heh I pay 75 EUR round trip for Munich-Pasing to Köln Hbf.
09:48:34 <Celestar> which is *much* less than by car
09:48:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and even then not regularly, as they practically went orthogonal to the way i wanted to go
09:49:51 <Celestar> I've never managed to catch and ICE2 up to now
09:50:30 <Eddi|zuHause> there aren't that many ICE2, i suppose ;)
09:51:29 <Eddi|zuHause> they are used on routes where the splitting ability is useful, i assume... like Berlin - Ruhr area
09:51:48 <Celestar> the ICE3 usually runs everything that continues on Frankfurt - Köln NBS, the ICE1 runs everything that goes via Würzburg-Hannover and the ICE-T is used on the Berlin route (since it's 25 minutes faster than every other train due to tilting)
09:54:13 <Eddi|zuHause> well, yes, you wouldn't pass through Thüringen without tilting :p
09:54:48 * Vikthor just found out, that there is hg on the school computer, let's install cargodest :D
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10:01:58 * Celestar shakes head in utter disbelief
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10:04:21 <Celestar> which idiot came up with the "Gesundheitsfonds" in Germany :S
10:05:39 <fjb> The same people who wish to introduce "Rentenfonds".
10:05:55 <MapperOG> wasn't it Ulla Schmidt?!
10:06:17 * Celestar thinks he needs to accelerate his plans to emigrate :S
10:06:52 <MapperOG> what a shame - I should know, I visited an info campang back when I was working for a health insurance company..
10:07:23 <Celestar> I hate all this state-driven stuff :S
10:08:34 <keyweed_> yes. doing it commerically is much wiser.
10:09:06 <keyweed_> since they moved to commercial health insurance my fees have been raised by 500% and my coverage halfed.
10:09:37 <Celestar> I'm effectively paying 550 EUR a month for health insurance
10:10:00 <keyweed_> woah. then i should not complain.
10:10:11 <Celestar> and I don't have any coverage except that what prevents immidiate death or maybe loss of limb
10:10:15 <keyweed_> unless you make somewhere near 10 000 eur a month
10:10:45 <Celestar> which is 1900 EUR net
10:11:54 <keyweed_> i make about 2100 net and pay about 150/month and it does still cover the essentials
10:12:15 <Celestar> I don't get a PENNY for new glasses (I have 8 diopters ... )
10:12:47 <Celestar> apparently someone things not running around blind is a luxury
10:14:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i currently pay around 60€ for health insurance
10:14:55 <Celestar> I also pay around 600 EUR a month for "retirement insurance" ...
10:15:00 <Eddi|zuHause> based on some totally imaginary assumption of an income ;)
10:16:58 <Celestar> but the 3300 EUR gross is not really gross. What my employer pays is 4000 EUR a month. 1900 EUR which I get. In other words, the state keeps over 50% of my income right away.
10:18:05 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it's so funny ;)
10:18:32 <Celestar> I mean if we even had a proper road and rail network, I don't even complain, but you cannot even get around this country.
10:18:52 <Celestar> We had 400km worth of traffic jams in Bavaria yesterday. It was a clear, sunny day.
10:19:18 <Celestar> so no "bad weather" excuses
10:19:42 <Celestar> there are no vacations starting or ending either.
10:19:46 <Vikthor> I am off to lunch, bye for now
10:20:17 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i was listening to traffic report yesterday morning, everything was clear then. and then when i went back in the evening it was like "4km jam because of an accident, 3km jam because of an accident, 12km jam because of several accidents, ..."
10:20:18 <Celestar> so I'm kinda wondering whose throats all my money get stuffed into.
10:20:47 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: 40km on the A8 Munich-Rosenheim without accident. 35km on the A9 Munich Nuremburg without accident.
10:20:57 <Celestar> it's just the the roads can't cope with traffic
10:21:02 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... no... it wasn't on that kind of scale here ;)
10:21:16 <Celestar> 25km on the A6 near Nuremburg.
10:21:22 <Celestar> 30km on the A99 around Munich..
10:21:36 <Celestar> ok there was a crash on the A99
10:21:44 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't imagine how traffic was around here, 15 years ago
10:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> it significantly improved
10:22:11 <Celestar> are you anywhere near the A70/A73/A4 area?
10:22:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but maybe that is because everyone who owned a car went away as quickly as possible :p
10:22:36 <Eddi|zuHause> no... A4 is far south from here
10:22:59 <Eddi|zuHause> we have A9, A14, A38 here
10:23:09 <Eddi|zuHause> where the latter is not fully complete yet
10:23:25 <Celestar> yeah, and some drunk idiot went for the H solution instead of the X solution?
10:25:18 <Eddi|zuHause> finishing of the A14 probably caused the best improvement in traffic around here
10:25:51 <Eddi|zuHause> so all traffic towards Magdeburg doesn't have to go through Halle-Trotha anymore
10:26:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the B6 is practically empty now ;)
10:27:30 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: initiall the A14 should be extended from Magdeburg to Hamburg and the A39 from Wolfsburg to Schwerin, with the two crossing somewhere (The X solution). Now, they're planning to connect Wolfsburg to Hamburg and Magdeburg to Schwerin, building two parallel highways about 50 km apart without any kind of interconnection.
10:27:59 <Eddi|zuHause> that is far north from here ;)
10:28:18 <Celestar> it is kind of stupid anyway
10:29:52 <petern> PCI-DSS compliance is a joke.
10:30:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the most funny thing around here is that they planned the A36, and then did not have any money to build it, so instead they build that exact plan under the name B6N ;)
10:30:46 <Eddi|zuHause> where the money comes from another source ;)
10:31:17 <Rubidium> retirement insurance sounds pretty wrong ;)
10:31:31 <Rubidium> "you" getting money if you can't retire?
10:31:50 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: you know, it is kind of interesting, seeing that both are federal roads ...
10:32:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: it's ambiguous only in the english translation
10:33:53 <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of federal roads... they plan to continue the B242 from the crossing with the B180 (where it ends now) to Halle, over an _existing_ road for over 15 years now, and they still did not manage that...
10:34:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the only requirement to putting up the plates is having turnout lanes on the crossings...
10:35:46 <Celestar> welcome to Germany :P
10:36:12 <Celestar> I wonder why infrastructure sucks so badly around this country
10:37:05 <Eddi|zuHause> well... neglecting infrastructure in half the country for 40 years must have some long term side effects...
10:37:16 * Celestar points ln to the note of having 400km traffic jams yesterday
10:37:21 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: well, it's not half the country ...
10:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause> well, two halves are exactly equal, right? ;)
10:37:53 <SmatZ> hello Celestar :) as you asked me about that gcc 2.95 test ... it works :)
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11:01:28 <petern> Has anyone here done mailman list migration?
11:05:06 <ln> a finnish company offering rental apartments has banned keeping swastika flags on balconies.
11:09:59 <Doorslammer> Such is discrimination in Finland :P
11:21:01 <keyweed_> pft. no swatikas. and they're such a friendly decorative addition to the suburbal atmosphere.
11:22:06 <Eddi|zuHause> swastikas per se are not banned in germany, only associating them with anti-constutional movements is
11:22:24 <Doorslammer> Um, apparently they are though
11:22:35 <Doorslammer> Ever tried to get a model kit with them in Germany?
11:22:42 <Doorslammer> Good luck with that ;)
11:23:51 <Ammler> I once draw a network plan on the #openttdcoop server, someone thought, it looks like one and my plan got banned because of that :-)
11:24:15 <MapperOG> lol swastikas in Germany are pretty much banned (if it's not a symbolic destruction of the same)
11:24:54 <MapperOG> but btw. I tried to play a netgame of openttd 0.6.3 RC1-111 and could get into the game, as soon as one connected and the other one unpaused the game we got a desync
11:25:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Doorslammer: well, they are certainly not put on toys :p
11:26:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you CAN use them for historical documentations and stuff
11:26:25 <Doorslammer> Thats because their depiction is banned outright, decals have to be changed for German market on say airplane kits and the like :)
11:27:59 <Ammler> MapperOG: do you use suse?
11:28:36 <MapperOG> there was also a hospize movement called the "Red Swastika" ?!
11:28:43 <Ammler> well, it doesn't help, was just curious ;-)
11:28:59 <Doorslammer> Still, good for a laugh, the Russians. They may mock the financial mess in the US, but of course they don't mention most oligarchs and banks have gone out of business or bankrupt in good ol' Moskva
11:29:14 <Ammler> the wikipedia page about is huge.
11:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "(3) Absatz 1 gilt nicht, wenn das Propagandamittel oder die Handlung der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung, der Abwehr verfassungswidriger Bestrebungen, der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken dient." (§86/86a StGB) <- these are the cases where using a swastika is allowed
11:46:32 <Eddi|zuHause> note that "placing on toy models" is not part of this list ;)
11:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think a toy model would pass as "art" in the sense of this paragraph
11:48:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it's definitely a grey area, so the commercial producers won't risk it
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12:55:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14436 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1793]: (fast) trains would sometimes move one time too often/little when moving from diagonal<->non-diagonal tracks (iguannab)
13:03:18 <Eddi|zuHause> damn... i felt so disoriented suddenly...
13:03:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i opened a station window
13:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and searched for the "Einschätzung" button
13:04:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but had to realize first to look at the "Bewertung" button instead
13:07:12 <ln> Oneschaetdzung, Beworthung
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13:10:44 <Eddi|zuHause> why don't we have custom bridge heads for road yet?
13:11:46 <Rubidium> cause you don't have them for trains either?
13:13:23 <petern> cos you've not written them :D
13:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: well, the reason for trains was that signal behaviour couldn't be adapted. but road vehicles do not have signals
13:23:38 <petern> Hmm, where is mailman getting this cgi-bin from :o
13:35:14 <fjb> Never trust the words of a woman.
13:41:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i really really need the ability to dynamically assemble freight trains
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13:51:07 <yorick> how is the size of a sparse_array chunk saved?
13:51:30 <yorick> (number of items != "size")
13:51:43 <yorick> (number of bytes == "size")
13:53:03 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Please implement it and you will be my hero.
13:53:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yorick: chunk sizes are ALWAYS in bytes
13:54:27 <yorick> so "array chunks" are special
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14:33:52 <Eddi|zuHause> multi tile waypoints are not working... i can't tell a train "use platform 4, or use platform 6 if 4 is full"
14:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it will always attempt to go to platform 4, because the way is shorter, and it does not check if the platform is occupied
14:34:56 <Eddi|zuHause> this could be solved by a lookahead
14:35:30 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: you can do that with signals and different lengths
14:35:47 <Ammler> penalty is your friend :-)
14:37:43 <Eddi|zuHause> how would that help?
14:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is exactly that there is no penalty for "train can't reach next destination from here"
14:38:37 <SmatZ> yapf has penalty for "last red signal"
14:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but there is no "last signal" anymore, with YAPP
14:40:38 <Eddi|zuHause> free platforms are now chosen by reserved state of the tile
14:41:14 <Eddi|zuHause> but if i now have a short waypoint station, and a real platform behind it, the waypoint station is not reserved
14:41:26 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: different plattform lengths has also different penalties.
14:42:10 <Eddi|zuHause> so this lookahead would solve the problem with the reservation, as the pathfinder would consider the reservation behind the waypoint station
14:42:19 <Ammler> maybe you need to adjust the default values.
14:42:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: platform length has absolutely no relevance to my problem
14:49:07 <yorick> what's the best hex editor?
14:49:46 <yorick> I'm currently using XVI32, but it does not have an option to display offset
14:50:31 <yorick> best WINDOWS hex iditor...
14:50:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i have not in a long time seen a hex editor who did not attempt to read the whole file into memory first
14:51:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and diskedit doesn't work anymore on modern systems
14:52:31 <yorick> i'd prefer a butterfly
14:53:04 <yorick> it can sit on windows, is portable, and is even colourful, but I can't compile butterflies, could you do that for me?
14:53:23 <Prof_Frink> Sorry, I don't have emacs.
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14:59:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14437 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: function to set/query the autoreplace wagon removal variable. Patch by Yexo.
15:03:20 <yorick> why is zlib used as the main game compression format, and not lzo?
15:06:05 <yorick> you can't load any saves made with normal openttd without zlib
15:06:22 <yorick> and why is lzo still supported if the format will be zlib?
15:06:36 <glx> because we support ttd savegames
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15:07:00 <SmatZ> zlib is needed for png and freetype
15:08:55 <SmatZ> yeah, some kind of RLE is used in TTD
15:11:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the other one is the solution
15:11:24 <Eddi|zuHause> damn, forgot one space...
15:15:39 <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: maybe you should hide the trees so we can actually see whats going on
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15:36:10 <yorick> "delivered_cargo, SLE_INT32" <-- you can have a negative amount of cargo delivered?
15:37:50 <FauxFaux> I've seen trains get negative income for delivering cargo, anyone else seen that?
15:38:14 <FauxFaux> It was some orders screw up with transfers, I think.
15:38:19 <yorick> cargo can drop in value below 0
15:38:40 <Yexo> yorick: are you sure of that?
15:38:48 <yorick> I am quite sure of that
15:39:10 <yorick> if you keep the cargo waiting too long, it will make you lose money when you deliver it
15:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: but... the trees are so lovely...
15:39:13 <FauxFaux> I expect it normally "rots" before that happens, though.
15:39:33 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, i did rather expect people to complain about the invisible station tiles :p
15:40:14 <yorick> FauxFaux: you mean passengers can rot inside their coaches?
15:40:32 <Eddi|zuHause> FauxFaux: it is not that the cargo has negative value, but the previously estimated value (at the transfer point) was higher than the final value
15:40:57 <Aali> yorick: game mechanics page at the wiki begs to differ
15:41:01 <Eddi|zuHause> so you still get paid, but the vehicle shows the difference between the expected and final value, which is negative
15:41:07 <Yexo> yorick: and so does the code
15:41:18 <yorick> maybe it's a cargodest-specific feature
15:41:33 <Yexo> with cargodest, you always have tranfers, so that is just a tranfer 'problem'
15:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it happens in trunk, too, only transfers are not very widespread
15:41:42 <Yexo> like Eddi|zuHause explains
15:56:59 <Prof_Frink> Mmm, sacrilicious.
16:00:06 <nicky> have a problem with my new station graphics, all of them, they are completely dark, almost like they are shaded. something terribly wrong there. anyone that can help?
16:01:06 <Eddi|zuHause> go to the newgrf settings, and click on "toggle palette"
16:01:54 <Eddi|zuHause> except you are in 0.6.x
16:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause> then you got the wrong grf
16:02:33 <nicky> what grfs are compatible with 0.6.2? do you know?
16:02:36 <Eddi|zuHause> grfs should come in a DOS and a Windows version
16:02:51 <nicky> only use the windows versions
16:03:01 <Eddi|zuHause> depending on where your original grfs come from, you need the matching newgrf
16:03:02 <nicky> it has work many times before
16:03:26 <Yexo> Rubidium: the engine pool is still missing from Roadmap 0.7, while I think that is also one of the bigger new features
16:03:50 * Brianetta suspects nicky's transparency settings
16:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause> if you use Win grfs with DOS newgrfs, this will usually result in very dark brown shades
16:04:11 <nicky> yeah, i was wondering about that too
16:04:27 <Brianetta> nicky: Click=hold the spanner. It's in there.
16:04:27 <Eddi|zuHause> or the other way round with lots of pink
16:04:35 <nicky> but it didnt help to change the transparency settings
16:05:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: "roadmap" is about "things to be done", not about "things that already have been finished"
16:05:22 <nicky> eddi: thats probably it then
16:05:43 <nicky> brianette: what does click hold the spanner mean?
16:05:52 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a wiki... everyone adds what they want...
16:06:01 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't mean it's correct ;)
16:06:09 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: not on that page as it is protected
16:06:24 <nicky> eddi: do you mean if i have downloaded both the dos version and the win version of the same grf?
16:07:07 <Eddi|zuHause> nicky: if you did that, check in the newgrf window, which of the files have been loaded
16:07:33 <Eddi|zuHause> then try to unload that one, and load the other one
16:09:23 <petern> Engine pool is not a huge feature. It's a behind-the-scenes change.
16:10:21 <Sacro> Anyone here knowledgeable on Hungarian copyright law?
16:12:48 <nicky> eddi: ive checked my newgrf files and i cant find any relevant doubles. and they all say "w" at the end, indicating its the windows version.
16:13:02 <fjb> Yexo: What is that? Is it worth to answer selfish guys like that?
16:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: that enough?
16:13:10 <nicky> eddi: do you think there can be some sort of crash between other grfs?
16:13:30 <Yexo> fjb: maybe not, but I found him too rude to let go
16:14:29 <nicky> it says my trgt.grf file is corrupted or missing. could that be the problem?
16:16:22 *** Swallow has joined #openttd
16:16:31 <fjb> Best part is his sentence: "I thought this forum is supposed to be for mutual assistance; not for a display of insulting egoistic expertise." :-)
16:16:32 *** Sacro|Laptop has joined #openttd
16:16:33 <Belugas> if it is missing, you would not be able to start the game
16:17:21 <Belugas> corrupted means you have somehow changed the grf itself. but this would very unlikely be the cause of a crash
16:19:32 <Belugas> mmh... forums is slow of somehow blocked
16:19:57 <SmatZ> nicky: 0.6.3? you have the german version of GRFs ... trunk handles them fine :)
16:20:03 <Belugas> "waiting for www.tt-forums.net" :S
16:20:04 <SmatZ> but you can ignore that warning
16:20:18 <SmatZ> Belugas: works for me :)
16:20:40 <Belugas> therefor, must be blocked :(
16:22:40 <nicky> smatz: i have 0.6.2, what do you mean by german versions?
16:23:22 <nicky> is there a difference between languages in grfs?
16:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> nicky: no, but differences in publication of grfs
16:24:38 <SmatZ> nicky: GRF files from german OTTD version differ a bit
16:24:42 <Eddi|zuHause> some sprites have been fixed in a version that was apparently distributed in germany, so the checksums are different, and openttd does not recognize them (or something)
16:24:57 <SmatZ> and OTTD 0.6.x knows only the english GRF version
16:25:26 <nicky> i think i used grfcrawler on the stations
16:25:40 <nicky> are there any german grfs there?
16:26:05 <Eddi|zuHause> grfcrawler is about newgrfs, not original grfs
16:26:51 <nicky> my original ttd? or my openttd version?
16:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> your original ttd
16:27:17 <nicky> dont remember where i downloaded that
16:27:45 <Eddi|zuHause> *wave hands* you did not download this anywhere
16:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> *wave hands* you bought these in a store
16:28:08 <Eddi|zuHause> see, it works ;)
16:28:21 <nicky> i downloaded some groceries a few minutes ago
16:28:26 <glx> <nicky> it says my trgt.grf file is corrupted or missing. could that be the problem? <-- the filename is a DOS one (unless you failed to copy/paste)
16:29:35 <Sacro|Laptop> Any hungerians here?
16:30:10 <nicky> is it possible i managed to download a DOS original TTD, when the rest of the game is working fine from xp?
16:30:30 <Baem> where i do found the ranking thingy? i mean the bot like services with counts wins etc
16:30:43 <nicky> a german DOS version lol
16:30:51 <nicky> that would have done the trick
16:30:56 <Baem> or maybe its an builtin? :D
16:31:17 <nicky> maybe i didnt even get the right game, maybe im actually playing ports of call
16:31:36 <nicky> any new grfs for ports of call?
16:31:55 <Eddi|zuHause> nicky: openttd only needs the grfs from an original TTD, whether that original version is DOS or Win does not matter to openttd
16:32:06 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd runs on many other platforms
16:33:36 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't like how the bufferstops of ISR do not have catenary
16:34:07 <Eddi|zuHause> MB's bufferstops do have them
16:36:05 <nicky> well, tx for all your help, ill see what i find out. bb then
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16:47:11 <welshdragon> Eddi|zuHause, mention it in the ISR thread
16:48:14 <petern> Heh, my buffer stops don't have catenary either :D
16:48:52 <petern> Mine/Born_Acorn's, that is.
16:53:13 *** welshdragon is now known as welshdra-gone
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17:09:51 <welshdragon> Mortal, connection issues?
17:10:22 <mortal``> don't worry bout it, I just switched to wired
17:10:33 *** Mortal is now known as Guest2997
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17:46:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r14438 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files): (log message trimmed)
17:46:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-10-03 17:45:52
17:46:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 6 fixed by tucalipe (6)
17:46:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 6 fixed by habell (6)
17:46:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 6 fixed by glx (6)
17:46:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: galician - 6 fixed by Condex (6)
17:46:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 6 fixed, 19 changed by sulai (25)
17:50:10 <Chrill> huzzah, I've kept Swedish up-to-date
17:50:11 * Prof_Frink gets some more chalk
17:50:15 *** last_evolution has joined #openttd
17:50:37 * Chrill feels like a very minor contributor to OpenTTD
17:53:32 * Sacro|Laptop almost contribute
17:53:45 <Sacro|Laptop> but TrueBrain stole my glory :(
17:55:15 * Prof_Frink pipes Sacro into his laptop
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18:01:50 <the_bat> HELP ! how to start the internet server with active grf north american reneval set 2.0?
18:03:14 <the_bat> when I try to run the server with date 1850 I can't build trains :-/ when I start at 1850 on single player evetything is working HELP
18:04:53 <Wolf01> do you know how to convert youtube flv files to avi? super and other softwares throw errors or create blank files :|
18:06:14 <ln> why would you want to do that in the first place?
18:06:31 <Wolf01> windows mobile doesn't have a flash player :D
18:06:58 <Belugas> do yiou kow how to override efficiently the MeasureItem function on a TMainMenu descendant? I do not want to redo the whole code :P
18:07:24 <glx> Wolf01: ffmpeg should be able to do it
18:08:00 <Wolf01> I can see them on the pc
18:08:22 <glx> too recent flash version is another possibilities
18:08:49 <Wolf01> I might try updating super again
18:08:58 <Wolf01> I did it some days ago
18:10:27 <fjb> the_bat: Which version of OpenTTD are you using?
18:16:26 <Wolf01> oh finally I found the download.. that site is a labyrinth :O
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18:19:03 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge
18:19:52 <FauxFaux> Mmm, eGRVTS claims it's not compatiable with 0.6.x, I've never used newgrf before, and want ponies. It appears to work with the latest release, thoughts?
18:24:21 <FauxFaux> Oh, yeah, that's so totally not working.
18:24:48 <Sacro|Laptop> Right, I've just upgraded from 0.6.3-RC1 to 0.6.3 and fullscreen mode is broken
18:24:58 <Sacro|Laptop> can no longer get 1280x800
18:25:10 <Sacro|Laptop> Any way to debug?
18:26:14 <SmatZ> but there were no changes of this kind between RC1 and release
18:26:43 <ln> Sacro|Laptop: try pouring a cup of tea on the laptop and observe whether there's any change.
18:27:02 <Sacro|Laptop> brown, black or green
18:27:07 <Sacro|Laptop> also, with milk or suger?
18:27:30 <ln> earl grey is what picard drinks, without milk, probably.
18:27:41 <ln> now cows on the enterprise.
18:28:21 <SmatZ> Sacro|Laptop: works for me
18:28:27 <FauxFaux> Fullscreen works here, dual head, 1920x1200, fwiw.
18:29:05 <Wolf01> About fullscreen, does anybody noticed that alt+enter does not make the game going fullscreen/window mode but the window disappear and appear again unchanged?
18:30:44 <SmatZ> Wolf01: works for me...
18:31:10 <SmatZ> in 0.6.3 windows, trunk linux
18:35:16 <Wolf01> doesn't work for me, trunk windows xp
18:36:22 <SmatZ> Wolf01: could it be caused by r14363 ?
18:36:55 <Wolf01> I noticed it about 6 months ago
18:37:06 <Wolf01> but I always forgot to report it
18:37:14 <SmatZ> hmm right, r14363 was backported
18:38:09 <Wolf01> some times I need to windowize the game and the hotkeys don't work
18:38:33 <SmatZ> sometimes they don't work, but sometimes they do?
18:38:33 <Wolf01> so I re-notice the bug, but I re-forgot to report it
18:39:22 <Wolf01> some times mean "what I need to do 2 things at once" :P
18:40:06 <Wolf01> oh, nice, now it tells "fullscreen mode failed"
18:41:59 <Wolf01> it seems to try to use the weird windowed resolution when trying to switch to fullscreen
18:42:11 <Wolf01> setting it to 640x480 worked
18:44:06 <Wolf01> that resolution should be used for fullscreen purpose only, and it shouldn't be changed by resizing the window
18:45:00 <Wolf01> (why somebody wants to set a window size?)
18:46:18 <Belugas> there is a big difference between using the full size of the screen and fullscreen mode
18:47:01 <Wolf01> but the window doesn't have a resolution
18:47:17 <Wolf01> it's the same of the desktop resolution
18:47:29 <Wolf01> it does have a size instead
18:47:57 <Wolf01> and the sized can be easily changed by resizing it with the mouse or clicking to the [] button
18:48:02 <the_bat> guys how to run the server with north american renewal set 2??? I repeat the question?
18:48:44 <Belugas> you put it in config, you run the server and it appears
18:49:01 <Belugas> the_bat, you might want to try with different dates
18:49:09 <Belugas> just to rule out the dates problem
18:50:04 <the_bat> when I start single player It's work with date 1838 and I can build trains but on multi the official start point 1850 won't work :-/
18:50:22 <Belugas> we know, you told us already
18:50:32 <Belugas> and it does not make sens
18:51:04 <the_bat> what kind of problem is with start date in multi player game ?
18:51:19 <Belugas> that's why it does not make sens
18:51:57 <Wolf01> there are some mystic things on computer's world which don't make sense...
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18:52:42 <the_bat> If I add an grf to list it work's everywhere am I right?
18:52:43 <Belugas> the_bat, it could be as stupid as the fact yu are running two differnt configurations
18:54:15 <the_bat> I have two installations on separate folders and with one openttd.cfg ;-))))
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18:55:12 <Wolf01> whare's the openttd.cfg?
18:55:49 <Wolf01> if it is in the documents & settings folder it can be used from both the installations
18:55:49 <the_bat> It's windows vista installation so it is in user directory
18:56:31 <Wolf01> and no other openttd.cfg on the game folder?
18:56:49 <the_bat> hmmm... wait I check it
18:57:07 <Wolf01> maybe the installation you use as server
18:58:25 <the_bat> is the server installation?
18:59:04 <the_bat> I get game from download link 0.6.3
18:59:26 <the_bat> and start the multiplayer game
18:59:52 <the_bat> no trains at 1850 ! :-/
19:01:10 <the_bat> In single player works fine
19:01:47 <Wolf01> run the server with the grf loaded and check if the grf is loaded when you're playing
19:01:53 <Belugas> did you advertized the server? meaning it's available to join?
19:02:35 <Wolf01> with loaded I mean no warnings or red status
19:03:04 <the_bat> I set internet server I must do something else ?
19:03:25 <Belugas> telll us which server it is
19:03:49 *** insulfrog has left #openttd
19:06:00 <the_bat> damn I'm behind the NAT :-/
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19:10:14 <the_bat> damn it .... when I load the grf it should work in single and multiplayer games ! why it doesn'work on multiplayer.... maybe I must something write in openttd.cfg???
19:10:56 <Belugas> the_bat: it does for everyone but you, so i guess it must be something on your side
19:11:02 <Belugas> now as to what it is...
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19:11:57 <the_bat> is the special game versions for the servers?
19:12:01 <Belugas> Wolf01 asked you about what you see on the grf config in game on the server, wyou have not answered
19:12:30 <the_bat> how to check the grf status when the server is runing ? :-)
19:12:44 <Belugas> like waht you do during single player...
19:14:02 <the_bat> oh yes I see it everything is ok
19:15:57 <the_bat> the status is ok but the game .... without trains :-/
19:16:10 <the_bat> and I see... on single player too :-/
19:17:12 <the_bat> I have only general tram set and american renewal
19:19:02 <Wolf01> /sito OTTD_related/check_grf_status.PNG
19:21:48 <the_bat> I have yellow ">>" icons like on the dvd pilot forward >>
19:21:51 <Wolf01> I use a different grf set
19:22:07 <the_bat> I see nice stations :-)
19:22:24 <the_bat> and different version
19:23:01 <the_bat> now I can't run the game on single player at 1850 :-/
19:23:16 <the_bat> yesterday I play on that date
19:24:07 <the_bat> why sometiemes the start date won't work correct :-/
19:24:55 <Belugas> there is a certain random as to when the vehicles start to appear
19:25:08 <Belugas> but in yur case, i do not know if it applies
19:26:55 <the_bat> I delete and reload the grfs again and nothing :-/
19:27:27 <the_bat> but I have yesterday save game :-)
19:28:00 <the_bat> It's not the exclamation of the problem
19:31:40 <Wolf01> 2 hours of discussion and at the end it was an "open eyes dream" :D
19:35:52 <Prof_Frink> Belugas: Put the glue down
19:36:04 <the_bat> send me u openttd.cfg ;-)
19:36:59 <the_bat> ok I get nightly build openttd :-)
19:39:19 <Wolf01> the cfg doesn't matter
19:40:50 <the_bat> maybe it's VISTA! %^%#^$@# :-)
19:41:28 <Belugas> like... there's no one with vista who can play ;)
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19:49:03 <the_bat> I think it's problem with 0.6.3 and vista the nightly build works fine
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19:53:34 <petern> Wait, you're trying to use NARS2 in 0.6.3?
19:57:12 <tba> 0.6.3 won't work with vista and north american renewal set NARS 2.0
19:57:38 <tba> nightly build work as it could :-)
19:59:09 <Nite_Owl> In: Now that was funny
20:00:08 <Rubidium> petern: the guy you and me are ignoring and Nite_Owl's misspelling
20:00:22 <Nite_Owl> oops - looked like In instead of ln
20:00:27 <Prof_Frink> petern: Pietersen and Flintoff.
20:00:46 <petern> Odd, my ignorelist is empty.
20:00:59 <Nite_Owl> Depends on the font I guess
20:03:25 <the_bat> north american renewal set 2.0 needs newest version than 0.6.3 LOL :-)))) 2 HOURS OF DISCUSSION LOL
20:03:26 <Nite_Owl> Arial = Capital I and lower case l look the same
20:07:51 <SmatZ> world with ln in the ignore list is so nice...
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20:24:26 <Htx^Lapto> yo, just a quick question.. I wanted to change the direction on a road but missed to stop the vehicles... is there any way to solve this situation?
20:25:14 <Htx^Lapto> i can't make them turn around or build new roads to the affected vechicles as there are vehicles "in the way"... I don't seem to be able to change direction of the tiles with vehicles on them either
20:26:00 <Nite_Owl> Send them to the depot
20:26:10 <Htx^Lapto> it says it can't find local depot
20:26:11 <Prof_Frink> Htx^Lapto: You don't need oneway on every tile
20:26:24 <Htx^Lapto> thanks for your compassion btw ;)
20:26:54 <Htx^Lapto> guess I'll have to load an old save :/
20:27:07 <Prof_Frink> You can't even send in a train for a mercy killing
20:27:14 <petern> Can you not remove the oneway bits if a vehicle is on them?
20:27:46 <Prof_Frink> openttd needs cht:deleteveh or whatever it was
20:27:50 <SmatZ> Htx^Lapto: they aren't deadlocked, are they?
20:28:18 <Htx^Lapto> i guess they are, I really can't do anything with them
20:29:18 <Htx^Lapto> it says can't build road when I try to change direction
20:30:00 <Htx^Lapto> i don't really think it would be a problem to allow that, if the truck has entered the tile, just wait to apply the rule to it when it enters a new tile or something
20:30:09 <SmatZ> can you post a savegame? I couldn't reproduce that
20:32:14 <Htx^Lapto> btw the depot in the image is quite misleading as i built it after the problem arose... so it's not connected to the road as there were vehicles on the road
20:33:07 <petern> SmatZ ... it's laughably easy to reproduce that.
20:34:40 <Htx^Lapto> I could always file a suggestion in the bug tracker... i'm already registered there anyway. If you want.
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20:36:19 <Prof_Frink> petern! NewIgnoreOneWayButtonForRoadVehicles!
20:36:51 <petern> NewProf_FrinkGetMeABeer!
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20:57:37 <fjb> Btw, why do most people put one way raod signs at every tile? You see that on almost every screenshot.
20:58:00 <Prof_Frink> Because they are silly.
20:58:45 <fjb> Most annoying in multiplayer games. You can connect nothing to that roads.
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21:29:53 <SmatZ> petern: I tried once to reproduce, and I failed...
21:45:14 <Ammler> fjb: there is a chat option on MP servers.
21:45:39 <Ammler> you can ask other player, if they need to change something.
21:49:36 <fjb> When the player is not online...?
21:50:47 <Ammler> and the company passworded?
21:50:55 <Ammler> else speak with the admin
21:53:03 <fjb> Annoying when that player is the admin...
21:53:54 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Tekky was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 19 hours, 13 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <Tekky> ccfreak2k: lol :)
21:54:21 <Ammler> fjb: then don't play on such servers;-)
21:55:15 <Ammler> signals on every 2. tile is needed for high traffic network
21:55:43 <Ammler> well, you could also use around 10 lines parallel
21:55:51 <Ammler> do you like that more?
21:56:27 <fjb> You could use reasonably long trains.
21:57:03 <Ammler> you should play a coop game, then you know, it is needed :P
21:57:10 <fjb> And spread the traffic, not evrything to the same factory.
21:57:40 <Ammler> that is the same like mutliple lines
21:58:00 <Ammler> I don't like those p2p networks
21:58:23 <Ammler> just single lines everywhere...
21:58:47 <fjb> You don't have to do that either. You can spread traffic over a network.
21:59:20 <Ammler> well, long time ago, my last single game.
22:01:09 <Ammler> I should do that again was nice, as I had the server for tt-ms.de
22:01:58 <Ammler> then I use mostly 4 tile gaps
22:03:01 <fjb> Oh, just doubled the lenght of the gaps.
22:03:04 <Aali> I can't so much look at a 3 tile signal gap without fixing it :/
22:03:49 <Ammler> it's like a compromis :-)
22:04:01 <Aali> 2 tile gap is the only thing that looks "right" in my mind :P
22:04:28 <Brianetta> My preset for dragging is 9 tiles
22:04:40 <Brianetta> sometimes they're even longer
22:06:59 <Aali> Brianetta: isn't that just horribly inefficient though?
22:07:25 <fjb> That has the advantage that you don't have to worry about jams at bridges or tunnels.
22:07:33 <Brianetta> Long signal blocks let my trains really stretch their legs
22:07:45 <Brianetta> and I like to build realistic lines
22:07:53 <Aali> but you can't have as many trains
22:08:27 <Brianetta> I'm one of the few players who knows, to an integer value, how many trains his lines can handle.
22:09:09 <Brianetta> My play style is reserved and low key. My track work pleases me, and watching the trains on it keeps me entertained for hours.
22:09:15 <Aali> ah, see, there it is, i dont care much for realistic networks
22:09:18 <Brianetta> Also, my trains never get jammed.
22:09:27 <Brianetta> And by never, I mean, never.
22:10:05 <Brianetta> You should see the tight tricks I can accomplish without PBS
22:11:40 <Ammler> well, if I would use only 1-2 trains per line, I am sure, my network won't jam, too. :P
22:12:40 <Ammler> hmm, need to check your save again, but I have in mind, it jams :-)
22:12:52 <Ammler> (the demo for Brianetta style)
22:13:11 <Brianetta> I'm company 6 (brown)
22:13:36 <Ammler> I have no pc which can run ottd currently :-(
22:14:30 <Brianetta> I'm running my demo save in fast forward
22:14:42 <Brianetta> Let's see how quickly it jams, eh?
22:15:06 <Ammler> sometimes a train has to wait before he can enter a station
22:15:15 <Aali> Reason: !Disconnecting road vehicle.
22:15:21 <Brianetta> waiting at a red signal
22:16:05 <Brianetta> a jam is where you train ultimately has to wait for itself, and requires user intervention
22:16:12 <Ammler> I know, my logic is different...
22:16:16 <Brianetta> I see it on my server all the time
22:16:31 <Brianetta> trains all waiting, jammed in deadlock, profit graph floored
22:16:42 <Brianetta> player eventually joins
22:16:42 <Aali> well, that savegame just wont load
22:16:50 <Brianetta> "oh crap, when did this happen?"
22:17:19 <Brianetta> Aali: You need the newgrfs is it's the one I pasted a URI to
22:17:20 <Ammler> Aali: maybe a issue with grfs
22:17:45 <Brianetta> Those are compatible, but you'll also need Blunck's ones
22:17:53 <Aali> you'd think it'd say missing grf or something, but okay
22:18:24 <Ammler> well, check the grfs, there could also be different versions.
22:18:39 <Brianetta> Ammler: Off-line, it'll load different versions
22:18:46 <Brianetta> assuming them to be compatible
22:18:58 <Ammler> because of that, it can crash
22:19:03 <Chrill> Brianetta, I have finished the final touches of my scenario, also adding a new island
22:19:16 <Chrill> Any spanish-speaking person will giggle at several town names! :O
22:19:30 <Chrill> I believe I have also finished settings well
22:19:34 <Chrill> will go through it, then send to you
22:19:44 <Ammler> because some devs forget to change GRFID, if the GRF is not downwards compatible anymore
22:20:54 <Brianetta> Ammler: Each author only gets 10,000 IDs.
22:20:59 <Brianetta> They don't want to use them all up.
22:21:13 <Brianetta> oh wait, they're hex
22:21:20 <Brianetta> They only get 65,000 odd IDs
22:21:45 <Aali> Brianetta: looks kinda like my latest SP game, except i have 3x the number of trains on the same amount of tracks :P
22:21:47 <Ammler> well, the first 2 bytes should be used for coder "id"
22:21:58 <Ammler> the 3. is the GRF and the last the version
22:22:15 <Ammler> so a coder has 255 steps for his GRF
22:22:58 <Brianetta> Aali: Do your networks ever jam?
22:23:14 <Aali> it hasn't jammed yet, but then again its only 1963
22:24:30 <Aali> there is some potential for jams where two junctions are a little bit too close to each other
22:24:41 <Aali> fortunatly, one of them is low-traffic for now
22:25:57 <Ammler> well, that is really a bad thing of ISR, it isn't downwards compatible on every step, why is that so difficult
22:25:58 <Aali> i am playing with breakdowns, but with the realistic breakdowns patch, so that hasn't really caused me any trouble
22:29:53 <Nite_Owl> Do they not change the station ID's on every major release of ISR which is what breaks the compatibility with previous versions
22:47:25 <Nite_Owl> Main page is down too
22:50:41 <Ammler> Nite_Owl: yes, they do :-(
22:56:57 <fjb> They only change some IDs to save sprites. And ISR is still work in progress.
23:00:09 <Chrill> Brianetta, see your inbox tt-forums
23:17:42 *** Wolf01|AWAY is now known as Wolf01
23:22:09 <Ammler> fjb: as it made other GRFs officially obsolete, you can say, it is final
23:22:20 <Ammler> and since version (0.6)
23:22:37 <Ammler> things now are "addons"
23:22:56 <Ammler> and should not break the save games anymore.
23:23:24 <fjb> Everything that is beta instead of alpha is a release? You should work for a software company.
23:24:19 <fjb> ISR is still under development. It is not complete even if it contains more than other grfs.
23:24:25 <Ammler> it replaced officially the harbour and and jcind or how that is called.
23:25:05 <Ammler> openttd is also still under development
23:25:20 <Ammler> but you can load older save games with trunk.
23:26:36 <fjb> Not every piece of software out there is fully backward compatible. That is even true for a major OS.
23:26:50 <Wolf01> With ISR you can too, but you should first manually convert all stations to the standard style
23:26:59 <fjb> And the harbour grf is very incomplete.
23:27:17 <Ammler> Wolf, I like the foobarway more
23:28:10 <fjb> Maybe you prefer that way. But it is your choice to use ISR or not. And nobody forces you to always use the latest version of ISR.
23:28:32 <Ammler> just replace the tiles which have changed.
23:29:18 <fjb> Or still use the version you started the game with.
23:29:28 <Ammler> that is the way we use.
23:29:50 <Wolf01> I'll take less time to convert all the tiles to original stations and then back again with the new version, so I'll might build better layouts
23:29:56 <Ammler> ne need to keep every version because of that for our game archive.
23:30:24 <Ammler> I only know one other GRF which has this "issue": Moderntrams
23:30:52 <fjb> Moderntrams is hardly in alpha state.
23:31:20 <Ammler> well, don't take me wrong.
23:31:26 <fjb> be glad you get that that grfs. Other authers keep their grfs in private till they are perfect.
23:31:47 <Ammler> maybe it is really complicated to keep the sprites
23:32:03 <Wolf01> oh, I think I'll go to bed... night boys
23:32:27 <Ammler> fjb: indeed, that is of course better
23:33:07 <Ammler> but maybe they should have stopped release after 0.6
23:33:26 <Ammler> and the make the final release.
23:34:56 <fjb> You are free to stay with 0.6 as your final release.
23:35:12 <fjb> Or wait till 1.0 comes out.
23:35:32 <fjb> Nobody forces you to take every step.
23:35:39 <Ammler> then how can I stop others to use them with my saves?
23:37:49 <fjb> How are the others related to your saves?
23:37:57 <Ammler> and we somehow guaranteed the authors to use the newest grf.
23:38:54 <fjb> And that forces you to change the grfs in mid game?
23:39:14 <Ammler> we never change the pack on a running game
23:39:30 <Ammler> well, don't say never...
23:39:57 <Ammler> the problem is that it crashes the client if you load old games.
23:40:15 <Ammler> yes, there are poeple using our archive.
23:40:59 <Ammler> it not really a problem, but a glitch :-)
23:41:12 <fjb> OpenTTD will recognize that an older version is used in the game.
23:41:23 *** welshdra-gone is now known as welshdragon
23:41:32 <Ammler> and you have to trash the save
23:41:44 <Ammler> because the older grf is not available anymore
23:41:53 <Ammler> if we wouldn't keep those.
23:42:58 <fjb> And how would a different ID change that problem?
23:43:11 <Ammler> then the GRF would not load
23:43:19 <fjb> Using a different ID magically keeps the old grfs around forever?
23:43:23 <Ammler> it is like you would not have it in your data folder
23:43:56 <fjb> And now the person loading the grf gets a warning that a grf changed.
23:44:04 <Ammler> you can also keep grfs with same id forever
23:44:39 <Ammler> well, you can see it as warning, too.
23:44:43 <fjb> He can load the save and then manually correct the stations. With a changing ID the save would be completly useless.
23:45:15 <Ammler> but you have no idea which grf makes that crash
23:45:17 <fjb> When the client crashes that is a bug in OpenTTD. Loading a GRF should never crash OpenTTD.
23:46:31 <fjb> Thats like blaming the auther of a text for using an unexpected charset when your textprocessor crashes.
23:46:55 <Ammler> i guess, the client does automatically pause and gives a warning if you unpause
23:47:27 <fjb> OpenTTD interprets the code in the GRF. If the GRF crashes the interpreter then the interprter is buggy.
23:47:56 <Ammler> well, OpenTTD is also not 1.0 :-P
23:47:57 <fjb> So make an entry on flyspray about the crash.
23:48:31 <Ammler> we talked too long about that
23:48:32 <fjb> How do you expect OpenTTD to get fixed if you don't report the bug?
23:48:43 <Ammler> the glitch is not worth it.
23:48:59 <Ammler> OpenTTD don't have to fix it
23:49:12 <fjb> A crash of the client is no glitch, it is a bug.
23:49:16 <Ammler> ISR should just use another ID, if they vreak compatiblity
23:50:24 <fjb> And then the next grfs shows up that is not in a stable condition and changes without changing the ID. And you start to complain again.
23:50:44 <fjb> And you always have to use the latest and newest grfs ofcourse.
23:51:25 <Ammler> sorry, but ISR is no beta anymore
23:53:10 <fjb> So a piece of software has a version number of 0.x and changes every few weeks and that is no hint to you that it is still under havy development and no stable release?
23:53:34 <Ammler> well, we should really stop it :-)
23:54:33 <fjb> Better for your arguments.
23:54:52 <Ammler> we just have different opinions
23:55:34 <fjb> Did you ever talk to the ISR authors about changing the ID?
23:56:15 <Ammler> they changed it from 0.3 to 0.4 or 5 because of that reason
23:56:32 <fjb> And that was the same coder?
23:56:53 <Ammler> maedhros did it until 0.3
23:57:42 <fjb> Complaining here changes nothing. Talk to the authors. Maybe they only need to get reminded about changing the ID.
23:59:04 <Ammler> well, I dd recognize it too late
23:59:50 <fjb> When changing from 0.6 to 0.7? As far as I know the incompatibility was well documented.
continue to next day ⏵
