IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-09-23
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00:00:38 <Ammler> maybe they like to provide warranty?
00:00:40 <TinoDidriksen> Isn't that part of the GPL itself? Pretty sure there's such a section further in it.
00:01:38 <TinoDidriksen> Indeed. Section 11 and 12 is that disclaimer.
00:02:05 <Tekky> but section 1 requires an additional "conspicuous" dislaimer.
00:02:13 <Ammler> means, you cant sold GPL software with warranty?
00:02:26 <Tekky> Ammler: no, you can....
00:03:01 <TinoDidriksen> Conspicious is legal terms for UPPER CASE...it's required to stand out from the normal text, basically.
00:03:27 <TinoDidriksen> Plain texts use UPPER CASE, rich texts use bold face or similar.
00:05:53 <Ammler> good developers give their software WITH warranty, not?
00:06:15 <Ammler> so disclaimer should ususally not be needed.
00:06:20 <TinoDidriksen> One would think so, but it is very very rare to find warranty on software.
00:07:07 <TinoDidriksen> Software simply has too many factors for misbehavior to make warranty worth it. Insurance companies would faint...
00:07:09 <ln> Not showing a disclaimer of warranty is a kind of strange requirement... If you don't, who is going to sue whom?
00:07:47 <TinoDidriksen> The requirement is to show a disclaimer of warranty.
00:08:17 <TinoDidriksen> But one is in the GPL, so that's taken care of by default.
00:08:31 <ln> Errr.. Yes, that's what I meant, although wrote the opposite. (A disguise.)
00:08:46 <Ammler> and what is the default?
00:08:55 <Ammler> disclaimer of warranty?
00:09:32 <TinoDidriksen> I actually don't know of any software that has warranty...
00:09:56 <Ammler> that implies that "default" dev makes bad code.
00:09:59 <ln> Purely theoretically, *who* could sue OTTD team for the fact that they don't show a disclaimer despite required to do so by GPL?
00:10:19 <TinoDidriksen> Devs of grfcodec could.
00:11:39 <Ammler> I guess, it is quite usual for paid software, isn't?
00:12:41 <TinoDidriksen> There's service contracts, uptime contracts, and all such things, but not actual warranty.
00:13:04 <Ammler> well, we fixed software bugs for free mostly.
00:13:08 <TinoDidriksen> Typo3 doesn't specify what warranty they have, just that they have some...
00:14:09 <Ammler> it isn't give by TYPO3, it is the web developer who gives warranty.
00:14:40 <Ammler> TYPO3 != Jud Grafik+Internet
00:15:17 <TinoDidriksen> They probably mean backup service then.
00:15:49 <peter1138> Ammler's clearly on another planet.
00:17:01 <Ammler> peter1138: don't you supply warranty for your work?
00:18:04 <TinoDidriksen> Warranty implies liability for bugs, which simply does not happen in software - dev houses will fix bugs, but they damn well won't pay if a bug wipes data.
00:18:41 <Ammler> also Dell won't do that, if I lost my data, they just give me a new HD
00:20:55 <TinoDidriksen> E.g., given the wrong parameters, OTTD could format your hdd despite that not being part of the documented behavior. Warranty would imply that you're liable for such a malfunction - but you have no way to prevent it as you can't control the environment OTTD runs in 100%.
00:21:34 <Ammler> warranty can't include such things
00:22:22 <TinoDidriksen> You'd be amazed...USA litigation happy people can find you liable for damn near anything unless you disclaim almost any and all warranty.
00:29:50 <TinoDidriksen> Writing code good enough to stand against that would be quite something...and slow with all the extra checks you'd have to make.
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01:12:46 <roboboy> fixing a problem with mibbit
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02:33:01 * roboboy wonders if he should post his suggestion for taxis that he once posted a few years ago in (he thinks) TTDPatch suggestions
02:34:03 <roboboy> if I have pengfx and the original grfs, will openttd ask me on startup which to use even if the md5 on the orriginal grfs arent right?
02:36:37 <Belugas> it is not a switch matter
02:36:53 <Belugas> it is still programmed to have original grfs as defaults
02:43:46 <roboboy> even though my copies do not have the correct md5?
02:48:02 <Belugas> what does it has to do with opengfx?
02:48:33 <Belugas> the fact that your original grfs fail at md5 tests means they have been tempered
02:49:38 <Belugas> the system will not say..."ho my god! wrong files... quick, check to see if we have opengfx nearby. We do? Cooll!! screw the original then"
02:50:37 <Belugas> it's rather "WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! YOUR ORIGINAL FILES ARE NOT VIRGINAL (or tempered if you do not like the word)"
03:25:56 <roboboy> do trailers on artic rvs get counted as rvs towards your rv count?
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07:38:31 <Phantasm> Belugas: Well, yes and no. With the given lines of OpenTTD intending to deliver the original TTD behaviour enchanced, but not really changing anything other than clear bugs, the fix is proper. However, the original behaviour (in 256x256 map) might not be so perfect... ;P
07:45:33 <Phantasm> Belugas: Power stations never shutting down is quite strange... Also banks should somewhat shut down at times as well, but overally their number could just go up, depending on town sizes. And then lies the question.. Should the original industry count be the unserved balance or not. Well, of course the game doesn't really show the real case as at start there is no transportation whatsoever going, even though plenty existed at that time. While, serving most ...
07:45:39 <Phantasm> ... industries can effectively make the number of industries grow higher as the amount of dying industries doesn't matter on the amount of new industries. And then there are plenty of different aspects to think about etc... Anyway, that is about what OpenTTD is wanted to be instead of bug. Anyway, the clear bug part is fixed.
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08:09:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> # Guten Morgen, liebe Sorgen, seid ihr auch schon alle da
08:10:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> # habt ihr auch so gut geschlafen? Na dan ist ja alles klar
08:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> # Wieso hab ich eigentlich noch das Steuer in der Hand
08:12:35 <Eddi|zuHause2> # nn, nn. Das wird in Engelskreisen "Harfe" genannt
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08:43:19 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: I didn't sleep well so it's not a good morning
08:43:29 <Bjarni> which means you are talking garbage :P
08:43:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, that's the meaning of the song, the "troubles" didn't sleep well either, the "good" is meant ironic :p
08:45:51 <Bjarni> you expect me to catch ironic stuff in German on a busy morning after I had problems sleeping?
08:46:11 <Bjarni> or rather I woke up too early and couldn't fall asleep again >_<
08:46:33 <peter1138> 00:59 CTCP TIME reply from peter1138: Fri Dec 27 00:59:21 2002
08:46:49 <peter1138> ntpdate[2978]: step time server 84.246.155.137 offset 181208821.318639 sec
08:47:09 <Bjarni> a computer is not any more clever than whoever coded it
08:47:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> except it gets conscious
08:48:06 <Bjarni> I was once assigned to fixing a computer. It reset the clock every time it was turned off. It turned out to be a dead battery but nobody would pay for a new one
08:48:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> and then turns into skynet
08:48:34 <Bjarni> so I scripted that it should update from a timeserver in the boot process
08:48:34 <ln> another school shooting going on in finland
08:49:11 <Bjarni> ln: if you drop the gun and run away now, then there is a chance that they can't track you down
08:50:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> it'll turn out that the guy played "killer games" such as "the sims" and "blobby volley"...
08:51:09 <Bjarni> btw I read that you can kill people in the sims
08:51:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> what it sounds like... playing volley ball with a blob :p
08:52:01 <Bjarni> or maybe even a game somebody at campus introduced me to "boom boom volleyball"
08:52:15 <Bjarni> it's volleyball with a bomb
08:52:32 <Bjarni> and if you do great you get the secret password to make the players topless
08:53:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... i should mask my ip better... all those "meet girls from your area" ads are less than 50km off my real location...
08:54:21 <Bjarni> I get those too once in a while
08:54:27 <Bjarni> sometimes they are 10 km away
08:54:37 <Bjarni> and sometimes they are 500 km away
08:55:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> 500km? denmark is not even that big :p
08:55:25 <Bjarni> I once got girls from my local area.... in New York
08:55:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> no... it was never much more than 50km away...
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08:56:01 <Bjarni> surprisingly those girls appear to live both in New York, Germany, England and Denmark
08:57:25 <Bjarni> btw we spoke of catenary voltage the other day
08:57:37 <Bjarni> and how EU wants 25 kV@50 Hz
08:58:30 <Celestar> Bjarni: the EU has actually AGREED on something?!
08:58:45 <Forked> they agree on screwing Norway over as much as possible
08:58:51 <Bjarni> too bad the page isn't available in English >_<
08:59:08 <Bjarni> Forked: they agree on screwing everybody as much as possible
09:00:09 <Bjarni> I still think the "best" idea they came up with was banning food production in Finland
09:00:30 <Bjarni> Spain wanted Finland to import more food from warmer countries
09:00:51 <Bjarni> they didn't agree on that one though
09:02:40 <Bjarni> EU agreed on one thing: EU is democracy, so if you are against EU, then you are against democracy
09:03:41 <Bjarni> so in order to make more democracy EU decided not to have an election for the Lisbon treaty. Those people who wanted an election went against democracy
09:04:13 <Forked> we usually get the "and if you don't ... we'll stop bying your fish!" line
09:05:24 <Bjarni> when Denmark joined in 1972 it was based on an election where the yes campaign used posters with insane pricetags of what food would cost if we voted no
09:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> well... each time a democratical election was held, the supposedly superior party (=EU) horribly lost
09:06:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> we had this before
09:06:32 <Bjarni> people voted yes because they thought of it as an election of if people should be allowed to get enough food
09:06:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> then they made DDR only democratical by name :p
09:07:07 <peter1138> $ mail -f someuser'smailbox
09:07:16 <peter1138> fseek: Invalid argument
09:07:16 <peter1138> panic: temporary file seek
09:16:25 <Celestar> Bjarni: well, 25kV@50Hz is the most sensible solution imho
09:18:56 <Celestar> it's the most commonly used system
09:20:59 <Bjarni> and it's the highest voltage used in Europe
09:21:22 <Bjarni> meaning power loss in the wires will be the lowest (compared to the other systems(
09:21:59 <Bjarni> since power loss/meter depends on I^2, while it's independent from voltage
09:22:24 <Celestar> well the ICE3M can use 15kV, 16.7Hz; 15kV, 50 Hz; 25kV, 50 Hz, 1.5kV DC, 3kV DC....
09:22:43 <Bjarni> also you can make a system where the distance between transformers is greater
09:23:21 <Celestar> but the ICE3M has no less than 6 Pantographs :P
09:24:01 <Bjarni> did you see the wikipedia link I posted earlier
09:24:47 <Bjarni> that's about a locomotive with two pantographs. Both pantographs works with 1,5kV and 20kV (I never knew anybody used 20kV)
09:25:10 <Bjarni> 1,5kV needs both since the current is too high for just one pantograph (it will melt)
09:26:29 <Bjarni> I don't know what's best: different pantographs or voltage switches on the roof to make all voltages use the same pantograph
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09:27:41 <Celestar> and having 4 systems in a single locomotive is not bad
09:27:50 <Brianetta> My server has faulty trains enabled
09:28:04 <Brianetta> I joined to spectate for a bit
09:28:13 <Brianetta> and it looked like every single train was broken down
09:28:21 <Brianetta> The one that wasn't, did as I watched
09:28:30 <Forked> I'd ask for my money back =p
09:28:42 <Brianetta> peter1138 requested reduced breakdowns
09:28:51 <Brianetta> seriously, what's high breakdowns like?
09:28:58 <Brianetta> Do trains ever get past the platform end?
09:29:20 <peter1138> Brianetta, it was late in the game, and lots of stuff had closed down.
09:29:22 <Bjarni> Brianetta: high breakdown means all vehicles breaks down all the time if they never reach a depot ;)
09:29:38 <peter1138> Therefore there were a lot of vehicles stuck doing nothing and not getting serviced, and also they were old models.
09:29:49 <peter1138> So of course they'll break down :)
09:29:59 <Brianetta> I've been on plenty of old trains
09:30:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> 99% reliability should mean something like 1% chance to break down during a year
09:31:00 <Brianetta> To this day, I have never, ever been on a train that broke down
09:31:18 <peter1138> They were probably serviced too :)
09:31:24 <peter1138> Brianetta, will you update to 0.6.3-RC1 ?
09:31:36 <Bjarni> it drove 300 meters and then we were stuck for more than an hour
09:31:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> i have been on a train that was late because it broke down
09:31:41 <Brianetta> I've also never been half way to London to suddenly find the train in the depot, up on jacks
09:32:00 <Brianetta> peter1138: Didin't know it existed.
09:32:05 <Bjarni> eventually we returned to the platform and got a new train
09:32:24 <peter1138> Anyway, the reaction to breakdowns was certainly mixed. Either "Yay, a challenge", or "Oh God not breakdowns"
09:32:42 <Brianetta> If they were less frequent we wouldn't mind
09:32:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> i have seen trams break down quite a number of times
09:33:05 * Celestar wonders how many cities have normal gauge trams
09:33:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> which is very unfortunate, as the following trams have no possibility to overtake
09:33:18 <Brianetta> I regularly travel on ageing Pacers and, of course, the HST. Being old doesn't mean it keeps conking out.
09:33:28 <peter1138> Brianetta, it was released last night, so it's not surprising you didn't know :)
09:33:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> Celestar: i'd say about 50% of those that have trams at all
09:33:45 <Brianetta> peter1138: I probably will, because of the desync issues
09:33:51 <Bjarni> Copenhagen and Odense (both in Denmark) used to have standard gauge trams. However they were closed since politicians wanted everybody to get cars instead
09:34:03 <peter1138> It would be a good test to see if everything's really fixed :)
09:34:54 <peter1138> I was watching a YouTube clip the other day where an American pronounced it "Copen-hay-gen".
09:36:40 <Brianetta> That's the English pronunciation
09:36:46 <Bjarni> I know how to say London
09:36:49 <Brianetta> Like Cologne for Köln
09:36:49 <Celestar> Bjarni: that's smart.
09:37:02 <Bjarni> so the least you could do is to be able to tell the name of my capital
09:37:25 <Celestar> Munich also tries to get people into cars, especially the Greens. They are against the construction of new subways.
09:37:40 <Brianetta> In fact, English speakers pretty much murder Germanic city names
09:38:14 <Celestar> München comes from Mönch, which means Monk :P
09:38:28 <Brianetta> Yeah, I know the ch was part of the diminutive (:
09:39:51 <Celestar> Bjarni: I don't live _in_ Munich
09:39:58 <Celestar> I live in a small suburb.
09:40:06 <Celestar> which is actually about 3000 years old
09:40:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> <Brianetta> Like Cologne for Köln <- the romans screwed that one up :p
09:40:27 <peter1138> Gah, hungry already.
09:40:47 <Brianetta> Eddi: We're still guilty of being invaded by Normans, who all stopped speaking Norse in favour of French before invading. Buggers.
09:41:18 <Bjarni> Norse is way easier to understand
09:41:18 <Celestar> Tracking employees with RFID-tags .. nice technique (=
09:41:45 <Brianetta> [10:41] <Bjarni> Norse is way easier to understand
09:41:45 <Brianetta> ...says the man with a j in his name!
09:42:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> i have a J in my name :p
09:42:23 <Brianetta> A J like that is *extremely* north European
09:42:34 <Bjarni> Bjarni is actually a perfectly valid name in Norse
09:42:36 <peter1138> "Bjarni" is apparently pronounced how it's written.
09:43:07 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
09:43:08 <Brianetta> Doorslammer: which bit of "like that" puzzled you?
09:43:22 <Doorslammer> You'd be surprised how much :P
09:43:53 <Doorslammer> Bah, surprise badger and away etc.
09:43:54 <Brianetta> Bjarni: That's the point - it was pretty much obvious you'd find Norse easier to understand than French.
09:44:00 <Bjarni> I think it will be easy to be confused if you walk with your head the wrong way all the time
09:44:21 <Doorslammer> I walk into many lampposts
09:44:58 <Bjarni> that's not because you have your head the wrong way
09:45:04 <Bjarni> that's because you are drunk :P
09:45:09 <Brianetta> Doorslammer's nick reminds me of what I missed last time I went to Victoria Station to visit my grandmother
09:45:33 <Doorslammer> It's a shame my nick has absolutely nothing to do with trains but... :P
09:45:43 <Brianetta> You could always tell if you were late for your train by the door slamming rate. It tailed off just before departure.
09:45:50 <Doorslammer> Fits nicely though
09:46:03 <Brianetta> Now they're pneumatic plug doors. )-:
09:46:14 <TinoDidriksen> By Norse do you mean Norwegian? 'cause Old Norse is rather different.
09:46:25 <Gekz> I hate the clunk sound of missed train
09:46:31 <Gekz> and the fact another doesnt come for an ohur
09:46:44 *** Doorslammer is now known as PlugDoor
09:46:49 <Bjarni> TinoDidriksen: actually I meant the real thing and it's closer to Icelandic than Norwegian ;)
09:46:56 <PlugDoor> Doesnt have a nice ring to it does it? :S
09:47:11 *** PlugDoor is now known as Doorslammer
09:47:38 <TinoDidriksen> 'cause Iceland has kept it whereas the other Norse nations have allowed influence.
09:48:19 <Doorslammer> Interesting to note Norse had a big influence on the Hebrides and other Scottish isles
09:48:37 <Bjarni> not to mention Scottish itself
09:48:45 <Brianetta> They did so enjoy invading
09:48:47 <Bjarni> it's quite interesting to watch Scottish TV
09:49:06 <Eddi|zuHause> icelanders had centuries worth of inbreeding, no wonder why the language was not affected by outside influence :p
09:49:30 <Brianetta> I live in Newcastle, which was routinely raided by the Danish, until at one point they just decided it was a bit far for plundering and set up a government.
09:50:18 <Bjarni> I know an old guy from Jutland. He went to London and started to speak with some girls in a pub (in Danish). His son noticed and walked up to them and told that it was his father and asked if they could understand them
09:50:21 <Brianetta> That lasted longer than you'd imagine. We still have a Danish community.
09:50:36 <Bjarni> they had to confess they had problems understanding him because they were not that good at Scottish
09:51:05 <Brianetta> Yer talk like a pirate
09:51:24 <Doorslammer> Stop talking about Rses :O
09:52:28 <Brianetta> It's also an exclamation
09:52:42 <Bjarni> they arrested the school shooter in Finland and now ln is gone
09:52:43 <TinoDidriksen> The really-east-UK people can mostly talk to the really-west-DK people without translating.
09:53:02 <Brianetta> TinoDidriksen: An exaggeration. Beer *is* required.
09:53:21 <TinoDidriksen> Beer is always required.
09:53:38 <Gekz> Bjarni: Icelandic in 900a19:32 < winvirus> but to be honest all my AMD machines have ATI video cards...ACCEPT my athlon
09:53:50 <Gekz> is teh same as Icelandic now
09:54:04 <Gekz> ie, you can read 1100 year old scripts
09:54:06 <Brianetta> like "Internet" and "lolcat"
09:54:06 <Bjarni> the grammar is a bit different
09:54:25 <TinoDidriksen> Because they've kept it that way intentionally. They're proud of their language and heritage.
09:54:29 <Gekz> not as much as say, middle english to english
09:54:43 <Brianetta> Middle English is foreign to me.
09:54:53 <Tim> One question about the development-logic: Does it work like "0.6.2 is released, then it is being further developed (nightlys) and at some point called 0.7" or is it "0.6.2 is being developed, while the nightly branch is being developed too. 0.6.x is only being bugfixed, and at some time, alle the new features of the trunk are merged into 0.6.x and then 0.7. is released"???
09:54:54 <Brianetta> It's practically old German
09:55:24 <Brianetta> except no merging to 0.6.x
09:55:33 <Brianetta> trunk *becomes* 0.7
09:56:05 <Brianetta> Nightlies, no; they're simply snapshots of trunk
09:56:08 <TinoDidriksen> Old branches remain stagnant.
09:56:10 <Brianetta> trunk as it is at 8pm each night
09:56:23 <Brianetta> trunk will be 0.7, then 0.8, then evenrually 1.0
09:56:32 <Brianetta> 0.6.0 was a trunk release
09:56:41 <Brianetta> 0.6.1 was 0.6.0 with backported bug fixes
09:56:46 <blathijs> rather, at some time trunk is branched to 0.7, which receives bugfixes only for some time (while releasing RC versions) until the final 0.7.0 is released
09:56:51 <Tim> So 0.6.3 is only being released so there is a very stable 0.6.x - release, but has nothing to do with the further development of the game towards 0.7?
09:57:10 <Brianetta> It's feature-frozen
09:57:19 <Brianetta> but it has some nasty multiplayer bugs
09:57:36 <blathijs> Tim: 0.x.0 are the only releases with new features now, 0.x.n are always bugfix-only
09:57:41 <Brianetta> and since 0.7 will be a good while yet, that means there isn't technically a really stable release (:
09:57:59 <TinoDidriksen> That's the sane way of doing it, or you end up with actual forks every release.
09:58:07 <blathijs> Brianetta: Bugs with no fixes we can backport, or?
09:58:10 <Brianetta> cp: cannot create regular file `/home/autopilot/openttd-svn/bin/openttd': Text file busy
09:58:17 <Brianetta> blathijs: 0.6.3-RC1 is out
09:58:31 <Gekz> lol release candidate for bugfux
09:58:34 <Brianetta> Can't build openttd whilst the game's running
09:58:35 <Tim> Okay, thanks for clearing this up :)
09:59:04 * Brianetta unlinks openttd from the FS
09:59:20 <Brianetta> Good job this isn't Windows
09:59:41 <Ammler> Brianetta: run the game somewhere else then ./bin
09:59:49 <Brianetta> In Windows, if a file's in use you can't do a thing with it.
09:59:56 <Brianetta> In Linux, you can just rm it.
10:00:22 <Brianetta> The file handles will continue to exists, and the file will be deallocated once they're all closed.
10:00:36 <Brianetta> In the mean time, I've built a new one.
10:01:46 <Eddi|zuHause> the question is, why doesn't the makefile do that in the first place
10:02:04 <TinoDidriksen> That's what make clean is for.
10:02:08 <Ammler> compatibility to windows?
10:02:26 <Brianetta> Ammler: No need. It runs cp; that's not a Windows prog.
10:02:34 <Brianetta> rm first would fix it
10:02:39 <Eddi|zuHause> TinoDidriksen: no, "clean" does not remove the binary, only the intermediate files, which is exactly NOT what he wanted
10:03:05 <TinoDidriksen> ...then your clean is not clean.
10:03:36 <Eddi|zuHause> clean never removes the binary...
10:03:39 <TinoDidriksen> A normal make does a minimum recompile and link, which has no need to delete files and should not since if no changes are in the source file it won't redo that one.
10:03:40 <Ammler> doesn't cp work with mingw?
10:04:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: this has absolutely nothing to do with windows compatibility
10:04:11 <Brianetta> If cp does, why not rm?
10:04:25 <Tim> And another question, just to entirely understand the development-logic: I know that there are branches such as CargoDest. Is it so, that the developers of those take the current trunk and "copy" it, and then start modifying it, and synchronize it from time to time to the changes which happenend in trunk?
10:04:43 <Ammler> you could also do cp -f
10:04:53 <Brianetta> Tim: They have a branch, and they modify it in the (sometimes forlorn) hope that it'll be merged with trunk.
10:05:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, Tim, that's what branches are
10:05:31 <TinoDidriksen> And make clean does remove binaries normally.
10:05:31 <Brianetta> cp --remove-destination
10:05:31 <Ammler> we update our servers with "make bundle && cp bundle/* $GAMEDIR -Rf"
10:06:13 <Brianetta> I upgraded extremely rarely
10:06:28 <Brianetta> This one hiccough was fixed by removing one file
10:07:03 <Brianetta> I upgrade so rarely that it's common for the entire Makefile system to be completely changed each time anyway
10:07:19 <peter1138> Gekz: It would be embarrassing to release 0.6.3, and then have to release 0.6.4 a week later because something was missed.
10:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> *cough* 0.4.0.1 *cough*
10:08:07 <Brianetta> If the post 0.9 branch still sin't considered done, you reckon there'll be a 0.10.0?
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10:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> *cough* 0.4.7 *cough*
10:08:52 <Brianetta> You could imagine the sinking hearts on the forum at that news
10:08:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: 0.A :)
10:09:09 <Brianetta> "Now it's gone from 90% there to infinitesimally complete"
10:09:24 <blathijs> Brianetta: I don't think we've decided that yet :-)
10:09:31 <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't wine in that state for like 2 years?
10:09:51 <Brianetta> It could go on and on
10:09:58 <Brianetta> "aargh it's not decimal"
10:10:25 <Celestar> Brianetta: 0.10.0 is a possibility
10:10:54 <TinoDidriksen> Eh, just include the svn revision number in the version... 0.6.3.14302 or whatever. No doubt what's newer, but no need to bump version number as often.
10:12:03 <Brianetta> That's just making lots of numbers
10:12:25 <Brianetta> If you're going to use the revision number, have r128733 for trunk and s127356 for stables
10:12:29 <Eddi|zuHause> TinoDidriksen: versions are already like that. e.g. when reporting to newgrfs
10:13:13 <Eddi|zuHause> take a look at rev.cpp.in
10:13:16 <TinoDidriksen> Svn revision numbers are unique across the repository. A number cannot be in both branches unless code was comitted to both in that revision.
10:15:31 <TinoDidriksen> I meant to get away from the 0.6.3-RC1 thing where you RC simpler bugfixes.
10:16:30 <Eddi|zuHause> TinoDidriksen: RCs will get a significantly higher amount of testers than just updates to 0.6 branch
10:17:23 <TinoDidriksen> Ah, psychology...well, fair 'nuff. I was thinking about developer sanity.
10:22:10 <Celestar> Now this is fun. The local train running from Ingolstadt to Nuremburg has a higher average speed that most ICE connections between two artibrary large cities in Germany :o
10:26:04 <Celestar> Munich-Berlin is about 100km/h average, Munich-Hamburg is about 120km/h average.
10:26:15 <Celestar> Ingoldstadt Nord to Nuremburg is 120km/h
10:26:20 <Gekz> lklkjlkjasdf;jlkjlkfsdjlk;asdjlkjlk;adfjlk;fasdlklkjasdlkasdnjklksdfnlksdfflklkjasdflk;sdfjlkasdflksdflkjsdfjlksdflkjfl;kjasdf;lkjadf
10:26:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah... cat... we know the drill...
10:27:10 <Gekz> but I pressed ctrl-j instead of ctrl-u
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11:02:49 <Rubidium> TinoDidriksen: backports of bugfixes can be very tricky because the difference between trunk and the 0.6 branch
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11:07:39 <TinoDidriksen> Wasn't about that. It does indeed need testing; I just consider x.y.z.r versioning to be more transparent and easier to work with as a developer.
11:08:49 <Rubidium> there isn't much difference between 0.6.3.12345 and 0.6.3-RC1
11:09:19 <Rubidium> only that the latter is more clear for people and that the former is used internally
11:15:02 <Ammler> is the testing release also from the compile farm?
11:15:58 <Rubidium> which made the release not much more than running two scripts and doing one commit
11:16:37 <Ammler> will futur stable also be from the farm?
11:16:56 <Rubidium> that's why we made the thing
11:17:32 <roboboy> Can I suggest that the uninstallers text be changed to say that it is an uninstaller as it currently says installer. also I think the uninstaller should have a different icon to the games exe eg the normal icon with a no entry symbol on it or something to symbolise removal
11:17:43 <peter1138> We no longer have to wait for Bjarni to compile an OS X build, and then complain that his upload speed is so slow...
11:18:37 <Ammler> and now also your linux builds might be faster then those from packman suse
11:20:12 <Ammler> still no dedicated builds?
11:20:53 <Rubidium> dedicated builds were basically never used
11:21:15 <Ammler> I can remember someone asked for it for 0.6.2
11:22:22 <Ammler> not everyone likes to install the whole dev tools on his linux server...
11:23:09 <Ammler> and as you can't run the full packs as dedicated...
11:24:11 <Ammler> maybe I need to test that again...
11:24:36 <Brianetta> It used to work, but no longer
11:24:54 <Rubidium> that you might needs some libraries doesn't mean that the normal binary doesn't support to be run as dedicated server
11:24:56 <Brianetta> Now, if I try to run a binary I linked against SDL, it whines if I don't have the lib
11:25:09 <Brianetta> and my server doesn't have SDL at all
11:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i presume installing sdl is less trouble than installing dev tools :p
11:26:41 <Ammler> well, I would say optimal is installing dedicated build.
11:27:13 <Brianetta> There's no reason why you can't compile yourself a dedicated server on a machine other than the server itself.
11:30:02 <Rubidium> roboboy: as far as I can find out nsis has no support for setting the icon for the uninstaller
11:33:52 <Ammler> maybe insead of packing the bundles in 3 different format (gzip,bzip2,zip), you could make a dedicated server.
11:36:52 <Ammler> specially for archive, one (bzip2) would be enough, imo.
11:39:56 <Tim> At which time of day are the nightlys being compiled?
11:40:53 <Ammler> at least trunk, dunno the others
11:41:56 <roboboy> I tried building a nsis installer for TTDPatch and it worked but was not the best it could be
11:42:53 <Brianetta> peter1138: Think it's possible to put UK waypoints into my bundle?
11:43:41 <roboboy> Brianetta: did you turn breakdowns off on the restart?
11:44:09 <Brianetta> Vehicles still expire, though
11:44:17 <Brianetta> but I've given them an additional 40 years each
11:44:48 <Brianetta> so your Deltics can still be bought in the late 1990s,etc
11:46:03 <Ammler> Brianetta: did you find a "replacment" for NewStations or did you remove it without?
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11:47:21 <roboboy> you server is sitting at paused and not letting me build
11:48:50 <Rubidium> roboboy: that doesn't talk about the uninstaller of icons
11:50:49 <roboboy> if you click the interface settings button and then the page header icon, it should be there
11:52:21 <Rubidium> then find someone who's going to make an uninstaller icon
11:52:57 <Brianetta> roboboy: That pause thing seems to be a bug.
11:53:13 <Brianetta> Not much else I can tell it
11:56:09 <Brianetta> Ammler: I had plenty of stations; I just ditched newstatsw.grf
11:57:10 <Ammler> NewStations is not "just" a station grf, it is THE station grf :-)
11:57:27 <Brianetta> It no longer exists.
11:58:23 <Brianetta> Actually, I need ot do my banner graphic again
11:58:45 <Brianetta> since it has Blunck's work on it, and if he veer notices that he'll throw another hissy fit
11:59:22 <Ammler> well, you also need to replace the signals :-)
11:59:46 <Ammler> they are from him, iirc.
11:59:51 <Eddi|zuHause> those are GPL, though
11:59:56 <Brianetta> So? Their license isn't in question.
12:00:00 <Ammler> those from openttd?.grf
12:00:10 <roboboy> infact the OpenTTD Credits says thankyou to him for them
12:00:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the parts that are integral to ttdpatch he released under GPL
12:00:47 <Ammler> ah, I thought, you drop his grf because of his questionable statements, not his license.
12:01:17 <Ammler> his license allow distributing...
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12:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: apparently, the license requires redistribution with readme, and mb was not pleased with how that readme was included in brianettas pack... but i'm not entirely sure about the details
12:06:08 <peter1138> You all like your rumours don't you?
12:06:42 <Brianetta> Eddi: Nothing like that at all
12:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: there wouldn't be any fun without those :p
12:07:02 <Brianetta> I'll talk about it in more depth after I have been and bought a sandwich
12:08:57 <roboboy> wasnt it to do with the screenshots on www.openttd.org consisting of main TTDP original features?
12:15:15 <peter1138> 0.6.3-RC1 will let me upgrade from 0.6.1!
12:16:26 <peter1138> Damn, I don't have the GRFs here :(
12:16:28 <roboboy> I did that but from 0.5.4 or something
12:17:46 <Brianetta> According to Blunck's newstations readme, redistribution wasn't a problem
12:17:47 <roboboy> so was his problem along my lines?
12:18:07 <Brianetta> roboboy: No; this is purely a legality thing
12:18:54 <Brianetta> It was in that thread that Blunck clarified that the line in his readme, about the newgrf being "for Transport Tycoon with Patch" was not just descriptive, but intended as a licensing requirement.
12:18:57 <roboboy> but wasnt that his objection or was it actually that he produced them for TTDP?
12:19:29 <Brianetta> So, although I could legally redistribute the newgrf, I couldn't legally run them on the server
12:19:39 <roboboy> doesnt eis_os have the same requirements
12:19:41 <Ammler> Brianetta: that is, because the GRF is older then newgrf support of OpenTTD
12:19:43 <Brianetta> Since it's his property, it's really his decision
12:20:00 <Brianetta> Ammler: Read what he said on that thread carefully. You made the same assumption that I did.
12:20:53 <Brianetta> In any case, doubt has been cast on the legality of the license I was using, by the copyright owner himself. So, I removed the newgrfs in question (including newships) form the set.
12:21:03 <Brianetta> It was easiest, and guaranteed legal.
12:21:55 <Brianetta> Also, it doubles up as a boycott of the work of somebody who, for some reason, bashes OpenTTD whenever he can.
12:21:57 <peter1138> His graphics are included in openttd?.grf with his permission, of course.
12:22:33 <roboboy> yay im not the only mibbit user in here
12:22:42 <Ammler> peter1138: I thought, Brianetta removed the NewGRF because of personally dislikes...
12:23:29 * roboboy prefers TTDP except for cargodest
12:23:31 <Ammler> peter1138: well, the chat started before you joined...
12:23:49 <Brianetta> peter1138 knew the reasons anyway
12:24:04 <roboboy> but I dont bash OTTD unless a OTTD user bashes TTDP
12:24:15 <Brianetta> bash the user, not the program
12:25:00 <Brianetta> Patch isn't for me. It doesn't do the kind of multiplayer I enjoy, it doesn't do the kind of Linux support I enjoy, and it doesn't do the kind of big maps I enjoy.
12:25:03 <roboboy> or I usually bash the user but sometimes there is a bit of OTTD basing either unintentionally or intentionally
12:25:11 <Brianetta> That said, I'm sure it's a great product.
12:25:19 <Brianetta> I just don't ever play it.
12:25:36 <roboboy> I find I dont need the big maps and if I want mp its openttd
12:25:59 <SmatZ> roboboy: what do you miss in OTTD the most?
12:26:10 <Brianetta> I don't believe there's anything in Patch at the moment that I'm really missing badly in OpenTTD
12:26:15 <Tim> Smatz will do it for you ;)
12:26:26 <SmatZ> I am just interested :)
12:26:36 <Ammler> Brianetta: since YAPP :-)
12:26:48 <Brianetta> Ammler: Even then, I'm pretty nifty with regular signals
12:26:56 <SmatZ> roboboy: again? I never asked that
12:26:56 <roboboy> I was just thinking about it
12:27:06 <roboboy> you didnt but others have
12:27:20 <peter1138> Regular signals are easy, when you use them like they're intended ;)
12:27:25 <Tim> *shamelessly advertising*
12:27:30 <roboboy> unless you do not know about the thing im thinking of
12:27:45 <Brianetta> peter1138: Bit of a bugger on single track lines with loops
12:28:00 <peter1138> roboboy, OpenTTD developers are not a hive-mind.
12:28:01 <Brianetta> A shame you can't pair up entrances and exits
12:28:12 <Brianetta> but PBS fixes that little issue anyway
12:28:37 <roboboy> I know but it spread a little bit between the devs
12:28:38 <Ammler> Tim: that is in Patch?
12:28:52 <roboboy> you know what im thinking of though peter1138
12:28:57 <Brianetta> Tim: That feature would not be needed if "sort by industry type" did that, instead of merely grouping by industry type.
12:29:09 <Tim> SmatZ roboboy: what do you miss in OTTD the most?
12:29:11 <roboboy> or I think you do peter1138
12:29:32 <peter1138> roboboy, no, I have absolutely no idea actually.
12:29:34 <Tim> Though that might not be the thing i miss most... Doesn
12:29:42 <Tim> Doesn't matter, was just advertising *g*
12:30:21 <Brianetta> There are things I miss from Simutrans
12:30:26 <SmatZ> Tim: ok :) yorick was banned from this channel for repeating himself (not that I agree with that ban), but beware :)
12:30:49 <Brianetta> You don't agree with banning Yorick?
12:32:07 <roboboy> peter do you remember me saying something about not liking the credits window in OTTD?
12:32:13 <Ammler> yorick it kick/bans collector.
12:33:10 <peter1138> But who ever looks at the credits window anyway?
12:33:44 <roboboy> I winged about the original credits being missing or something
12:33:57 <peter1138> You did. It was a definite whinge.
12:34:10 <peter1138> I don't think I've ever looked at TTD's credits.
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12:35:29 <Brianetta> Crediting Chris Sawyer would probably be suicidal in any copyright suit...
12:36:00 <peter1138> At the very end, heh...
12:36:12 <peter1138> Hmm, and the top too.
12:36:21 <peter1138> "Original design by Chris Sawyer"
12:36:26 <peter1138> "Original graphics by Simon Foster"
12:36:32 <peter1138> Then he's at the bottom again.
12:36:49 <roboboy> but what about the other things
12:36:51 <peter1138> "Original copyright (C) 1995 Chris Sawyer, All rights reserved"
12:36:55 <peter1138> ^ That's quite funny :P
12:37:09 <roboboy> and shouldnt brromhall be listed for the music?
12:37:15 <Brianetta> Chris Sawyer^W^WLudde
12:41:19 <peter1138> Ammler, English only!
12:41:32 <peter1138> And on that note, I'm going to grab some lunch...
12:41:35 <Ammler> I have no idea how to switch that :-)
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13:14:18 <roboboy> can waypoint sets be used as normal stations in openttd or are they still stuck to only waypoints? I think if not it might be an idea to change that behaviour since stations can have go via orders set
13:14:31 <roboboy> and be multi tiled unlike waypoints
13:17:06 <Ammler> some station sets like Canada has the waypoints as stations.
13:18:17 <roboboy> but uk waypoints are waypoints only
13:19:34 <Belugas> and as such they will remain, otherwise, there will be no need for waypoints
13:19:54 <Belugas> the real question is rather if ever waypoints willbe able to cover more than one tile
13:20:07 <Belugas> Phantasm, i've read your comments
13:20:18 <Ammler> there is indeed no need for waypoints since adjacent stations...
13:20:33 <Belugas> and as you guessed, we are not going to change original behaviours of industries
13:20:44 <Belugas> those are not bugs, but rather design decisions
13:21:00 <roboboy> and I feel now that stations can have go via options rather than either having old non-stop or ttdp non-stop that waypoints are useless
13:21:06 <Phantasm> Belugas: Not really a guess.. I have ended up finding that is they way things are done with OpenTTD.
13:21:17 <Belugas> Phantasm: and we will not change them in respecgt of newindustries grf, which are bond to the original behaviours
13:21:48 <Belugas> note that you can change the offending behaviour by means of a grf :)
13:21:58 <Belugas> it is what they are for ;)
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13:27:49 <fjb> I'm missing a kind of join distant stations thing. I know about the current pach, but it hace a race condition and needs a clean reimplementation.
13:29:01 <fjb> But requesting alone doesn't help.
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14:17:55 <roboboy> Brianetta: do your rules cover allowing one to finish a route they started before they left the server for whatever reason
14:18:55 <roboboy> as I want and need to go to bed but have a route half built that needs to have more than I can do so far
14:20:09 <Brianetta> My rules make no mention of it.
14:20:27 <Brianetta> If you leave signs stating your plans, though, most of our players will respect them.
14:20:33 <Brianetta> You just have to trust (:
14:20:41 <roboboy> ok so thats the best way
14:21:58 <Belugas> or delay your bedtime by a good cup of coffee
14:22:08 <Belugas> or... a good bar of chocolate!
14:22:24 <Belugas> or by putting on a Metallica CD
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15:24:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14390 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: replace magic constants with symbolic constants.
15:25:20 <Eddi|zuHause> symbolic magic is great ;)
15:27:02 * Belugas draws some magic symbols on the floor, lights some candles and start humming dark and primitive melodies
15:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> hey... some forum guru around? how do i ignore a person?
15:35:00 <SpComb> UCP > Friends & Foes > Manage Foes
15:36:51 <ccfreak2k> I recommend turning a sharp 180 and making a "humph!" sound.
15:38:33 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... that hides the posts themselves, but threads started by this person are still visible
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15:50:55 <jpm> Don't forget your personal armament...
16:04:21 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Use your buildin filter.
16:07:00 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: that is defunct for a long time already
16:07:44 <fjb> Fix it. It is still the best availlable filter.
16:09:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i would, but the original coder is not available anymore, and the support service has no clue...
16:10:41 <fjb> You need a better support.
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16:38:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Quack salber... äh... selber!
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16:56:58 <Metalcore> would openttd be interested in original music?
16:59:21 <Celestar> if it is in style (=
17:00:44 <FauxFaux> Is that re done music licensed nicely? Can't remeber.
17:01:47 <Rubidium> only if it makes you forget about time...
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17:08:41 <Ammler> Metalcore: first the sample.cat replacement :P
17:09:12 <guru3> is it possible to upgrade depots?
17:09:50 <Celestar> windows 7 will apparently boast an improved UI.
17:10:02 <hylje> which looks like vista's
17:10:09 <Celestar> I wish MS would focus on the OS, not the UI ....
17:10:36 <guru3> i thought you could upgrade ones with trains in em
17:10:39 <guru3> then replace the engines :/
17:10:44 <Ammler> there is a patch, which also does that.
17:11:27 * Celestar wonders whether depots should be railtype-independent (=
17:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause> <Celestar> windows 7 will apparently boast an improved UI. <- didn't they promise that for every single last version, too?
17:16:55 <Forked> I wish they could make a server OS that didn't demand you had GUI on the console..
17:18:38 <Celestar> I wish okular would not try to print to file all the time :(
17:18:41 <Eddi|zuHause> "Translator! (said in style of "Medic!")" <- lmao :p
17:19:42 <Celestar> someone played too much StarCraft?
17:19:52 <Eddi|zuHause> in the forum, under a post by this strange "Batti5" person
17:20:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: i'd have associated "Medic!" with Starship Troopers
17:22:23 <Forked> there came a 2 and 3 of starship troopers.. I wonder how crap those are :)
17:22:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i just noticed that there is a "Starship Tropers 3"
17:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> 2 was supposedly really crap
17:23:02 <Celestar> dunno I watched 1 and that was perfectly enough
17:23:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i kinda liked 1, when i watched it on video, but the TV version was very crippled
17:24:24 <Celestar> I only know the TV version
17:27:12 <Wolf01> I *might* have see it at cinema, I don't remember
17:29:04 <Metalcore> well, i'm gonna write a nice swing piece for the heck of it, if you guys want it, you can have it >_>
17:30:02 <peter1138> Why do (NewGRF) industries sometimes receive cargo that's never been taken there?
17:32:37 <jpm> Is anybody familiar with Qt?
17:33:07 <Prof_Frink> jpm: Depends on your definition of familiar.
17:33:22 <Wolf01> I have a better question: why sometimes trains start not full with full load any and only one type of cargo?
17:33:32 <Prof_Frink> Just about every app I use on this computer is Qt, but I'm not a programmer.
17:34:18 <DaleStan> peter1138: ISTR something about cargos always being delivered to the nearest accepting industry, regardless of how far that industry is from the station.
17:34:42 <jpm> Prof_Frink: Ok, I am trying to learn some Qt programming...
17:42:25 <peter1138> frosch123, hmm, and no solution? :o
17:43:24 <frosch123> do it the same as ttdp :)
18:01:26 <Celestar> An ICE3 can run up on a 4% slope (uphill) at full load with 25% of all engines inoperative
18:12:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14391 /branches/noai/src/console_cmds.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: allow settings via start_ai via console (Yexo)
18:50:20 * Celestar wants to commit his vehicle detail window fixes to cargodest :(
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19:25:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14392 /trunk/src/window_gui.h: -Fix [FS#1404]: some widgets saw a single click as multiple clicks.
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19:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, where does konqueror save its browser cache?
19:34:23 <Belugas> in his treasure-chest
19:35:36 <frosch123> seems like the clock is approaching 17:00 in canada :)
19:37:52 <Eddi|zuHause> more like 15, but my calculation skills are rudimentary since 10th grade :p
19:37:55 <Belugas> not fast enough, frosch123!
19:41:16 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: /var/tmp/kdecache-user/http
19:52:04 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i can't find a command for "drop the first k lines of input" only "count the lines, and then display the last n-k lines"
19:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. or print it out, cut off the paper, and then scan it back in
20:12:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14393 /trunk/src/signs_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2318]: deleting the same window (pointer) twice.
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23:27:26 <Belugas> good evening (or morning)
23:27:28 <roboboy> If i do a local road reconstruction, will the town take over roads more quickly that are on its outer edge that another company owns?
23:27:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> roads never change ownership
23:28:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> unless you buy out the company
23:30:22 <roboboy> I thiught the town took ownership over roads as it expanded
23:33:38 <Belugas> you are thinking wrong
23:33:56 <Belugas> unless it is new roads, town do not change ownership
23:37:12 <roboboy> so to build my track I need to wait until the owner of this company gets online so I can get them to remove a short stub of road from it
23:38:41 <fjb> If you are building a railway track at the same level just build over his road.
23:39:10 <fjb> If your track is crossing that piece of road.
23:39:59 <Belugas> or raise a bridge, or dig under
23:42:21 <roboboy> its kinda hard in the location
23:48:24 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 4 hours, 56 minutes, and 42 seconds ago: <Celestar> cu tomorrow :D
23:52:48 <fjb> Tomorrow is always tomorrow. Thta is why bugs get always fixed tomorrow.
23:56:52 <SmatZ> The day after tommorow is even better, you don't have to be stressed about things you have to do tommorow
23:57:04 <SmatZ> or by tommorow, that is today...
continue to next day ⏵
