IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-09-22
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02:18:23 <Metalcore> how reasonable would the option of "funding" a subsidy be? Perhaps by "hiring lobbyists"?
02:18:33 <Metalcore> obviously only for currently nonexistent routes
02:55:05 <roboboy> but then in SP you would be spending money to make money and you would either make a loss or make way more than it cost to build and fund it
03:03:39 <Metalcore> well, make it cost a lot and be uncertain
03:03:45 <Metalcore> like prospecting for primary industries
03:46:55 <roboboy> I have a station with a one tile gap between it and a competitors station and want to build an extra platform in that gap but if I ctrl build the station it builds as a new station
03:47:38 <roboboy> can I get it to be built as part of my existing station?
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04:30:10 <roboboy> fixing a problem with mibbit
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04:30:15 <roboboy> fixing a problem with mibbit
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04:30:34 <roboboy> fixing a problem with mibbit
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05:25:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> apparently, there can only be one fix to mibbit...
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06:24:54 <roboboy> fixing a problem with mibbit
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06:25:01 <roboboy> fixing a problem with mibbit
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06:25:42 <Rubidium> roboboy: use a proper client that doesn't need to reboot every mnute
06:26:58 <roboboy> it only needs fixing on exiting after hibbernation
06:27:00 <roboboy> fixing a problem with mibbit
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06:27:18 <roboboy> I shall try other methods
06:30:03 <Tim> Well, seems like the devs fell asleep in front of their pcs :D
06:32:59 <Noldo> there is a patch for that
06:33:47 <Noldo> that's the distant join part of it
06:35:15 <roboboy> yeah and I wish it would be done as I have a use for it now
06:43:10 <peter1138> Yeah, whatever happened to those patches...
06:51:42 <Noldo> is there FS task about it?
06:52:26 <Noldo> last updated version is 21.8.
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07:29:02 <letto> are there any station grfs that change when pasagers arrive ala industrial staion renewal ?
07:37:02 <Celestar> don't most station grfs do that?
07:40:51 <welshdragon> only the Michael Blunck ones, but let's not go there
07:41:10 * Forked wanders in that general direction since he has no clue whats going on there
07:45:59 <roboboy> where can I find information on that subject welshdragon? TTDP graphics forum?
07:46:16 <welshdragon> i'm digging it up nopw
07:46:46 <roboboy> as I missed it while I was away from thouroughly reading the forums
07:47:26 <letto> yup, just tested and it works :)
07:49:28 <welshdragon> that's why brianetta no longer has them in his grf'S
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08:18:58 <peter1138> Well, that's a bugger.
08:19:10 <peter1138> I forgot about my ebay bid... The server went for £59 :(
08:21:00 <welshdragon> peter1138, you fool
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08:23:29 <peter1138> Dual Athlon MP 2800+, 4GB RAM... was not a bad box :o
08:23:41 <peter1138> Oh well, I'll keep looking.
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08:25:14 <peter1138> 1U chassis go for that much :o
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08:31:00 <sulai> peter1138: The station rating window is too big, since it has space for all cargo, even if there is only one shown. I could provide a patch which addapts the station rating part of the window, depending on how many ratings are shown there. It's a spin-off of my "remove rating/accept button" patch http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=99080 are you interested?
08:33:20 <sulai> Please don't misunderstand. I don't want to remove the rating/accpet button. I'd like to ask if there is some interest to resice the rating part in the original window.
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09:53:43 <TrueBrain> FauxFaux: rules say RSS data can't be HTML :p
09:53:50 <TrueBrain> I will check if it is a flag somewhere to change that ;)
10:00:45 <peter1138> Grrr, I have a network printer that I can't remove :o
10:00:52 <peter1138> Brianetta! It's your fault!
10:01:06 <peter1138> You made me play OpenTTD on your server, so I forgot to bid on ebay :(
10:03:08 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14376 /branches/noai/ (bin/ai/regression/regression.txt src/ai/api/ai_rail.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix: AIRail.BuildSignal had a bug (Yexo)
10:04:40 <peter1138> So now I have no £59 server :(
10:04:42 <Brianetta> *I* am the top bidder!
10:04:48 <peter1138> Which is most annoying.
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10:23:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14377 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
10:23:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: AIVehicle functions to manipulate wagons (Yexo)
10:23:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: use ::GetVehicle()->type over GetVehicleType (a bit faster)
10:24:59 <FauxFaux> Uh oh, are we heading towards train support?
10:29:38 <Celestar> Stuttgart - Aachen 3hours :o
10:31:02 <Yexo> FauxFaux: not heading towards, train support is complete now (apart from a missing rail pathfinder in the library)
10:31:17 <Rubidium> Celestar: then you didn't walk
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10:38:27 <Celestar> Rubidium: er no :) I'm just trying to decide how to get there (=
10:38:37 <Celestar> 3 hours is not realistically possible by car.
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10:46:37 <Rubidium> it's only 3 days and 15 hours walking
10:47:51 <Celestar> how did you estimate that? :P
10:50:11 <Celestar> it's 3.5-4.5 hours by car
10:50:25 <Forked> but by walking you take the shortcut !
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10:53:58 <Celestar> Rubidium: does that assume that you can walk 24 hours a day?
10:54:36 <Celestar> so when you walk 10 hours a day ... it's more like 9 days
10:55:21 <Celestar> the Railway Ticket is about 90 EUR. Considering you need at least one pair of shoes for walking over 400km, one can assume that walking is not much cheaper :P
11:18:39 <sulai> wasn't there a documentation in wiki about how to create a new savegame version for a patch? I'm searching a while already, but I can't find it...
11:25:24 <Brianetta> Celestar: I have a pair of walking boots that's done at least 400km.
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11:48:28 <Celestar> Brianetta: but on in 3 hours 430km :P
11:57:16 <Celestar> Brianetta: you walking boots don't average 130km/h :P
11:59:25 <roboboy> if I unload cargo at a station that doesnt accept it and it later accepts it, do my vehicles get payed? no cargodest
11:59:32 <Brianetta> I never disputed that. I was disputing the costs.
11:59:49 <Celestar> Brianetta: well, it depends on the quality of the boots and the price I guess
11:59:50 <Brianetta> roboboy: You'd need to pick the cargo up and then drop it again
12:00:06 <Brianetta> Celestar: These boots cost about €50
12:00:08 <Celestar> Brianetta: btw. ticket prices is 75 EUR only ..
12:00:33 <Brianetta> Boots are extremely cost effective. Food and cooking fuel for the journey costs more.
12:00:41 <roboboy> so when a PBI industry stops accepting I dont get payed even though it gets used because I unloaded it
12:00:55 <Brianetta> A 3 hour journey, in general, doesn't carry a starvation risk.
12:01:13 <Brianetta> roboboy: Did you force it onto the station with unload?
12:01:25 * Sacro|MB gets really hungry on 3 hour journeys :(
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12:01:28 <Brianetta> In which case, check the platform.
12:01:32 <Brianetta> It'll still be there.
12:02:03 <Celestar> Brianetta: well, if you consider food and shelter for a journey of 400km, walking is always the least cost effective I guess
12:02:24 <Brianetta> Celestar: Shelter's a capital cost, but yeah, for a one-off, take a train.
12:03:48 <Brianetta> Simutrans would be my game of choice if it didn't have dumbed down track.
12:04:13 <roboboy> but it gets used when the industry starts to accept the goods
12:04:40 <Celestar> Brianetta: how good is simutrans' destination system?
12:04:55 <Brianetta> Celestar: Comprehensive.
12:05:03 <Brianetta> It's really hard to stay afloat
12:05:15 <Celestar> any idea I might want to implement?
12:05:27 <Brianetta> Well, here's how it works
12:05:38 <Brianetta> Passengers are generated by buildings of various sorts
12:05:45 <Brianetta> Each passenger is created wanting to go somewhere
12:05:50 <Brianetta> They will change up to 20 times to get there
12:06:05 <Brianetta> but they won't even show up at a station if they can't get where they're going
12:06:27 <Brianetta> Any potential destination (town, stadium, industry) shows how many people want to reach it
12:06:48 <Brianetta> but individual point-to-point potential journeys are numerous and not often duplicated
12:06:57 <Brianetta> You really, really can't survive if you don't integrate
12:07:20 <Brianetta> Most passengers want to go shorter distances
12:07:32 <Brianetta> Relatively few want to go to Distantville Stadium
12:07:44 <Brianetta> but Nearsville Factory needs its local workers
12:07:51 <Brianetta> so you'd run a bus there
12:07:53 <Celestar> I'm working on something like that.
12:08:04 <Celestar> but then I'd need industries that accept passengers
12:08:12 <Brianetta> The workers would get to your bus by connecting services
12:08:31 <Brianetta> Farms take 1/4, factories 3/4
12:08:45 <Brianetta> A newgrf can tweak them
12:09:34 <Brianetta> but since Simutrans has brain-dead track layouts, I don't play
12:09:43 <Brianetta> Take a single line with passing loop
12:10:03 * Celestar wants IS first intergrated with cargodest :D
12:10:20 <Brianetta> Any train can run around from one side to the other, within the loop, because all junctions on a tile are connected.
12:11:28 <Vikthor> infrastructure sharing
12:11:48 <Ammler> Celestar: first drafts of ECS had also workers as cargo type
12:11:53 <Brianetta> but my desire for it isn't linked to my desire for any other features
12:12:14 <Ammler> then they changed it to vehicels
12:12:23 <Brianetta> peter1138: Ever played Ports of Call?
12:13:27 <Celestar> Brianetta: what other features do you desire except non-magic brakes?
12:13:45 <peter1138> I mean Pikka's ships ;)
12:14:33 <Brianetta> Celestar: Multiple signal block reservations per train, and my orders grouping suggestion
12:14:48 <Brianetta> So I can designate a train's order as express, and it reserves further
12:15:15 <Brianetta> ttp://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=728175#p728175
12:15:38 <Brianetta> You might want to stick an h in front of that URL
12:16:04 <Brianetta> For orders grouping, exactly like so
12:16:11 <Brianetta> That would make the game playable by my wife (:
12:16:37 <Brianetta> Bear in mind that there's heavy resistance form the "but I use groups for silly things" crowd
12:17:52 <Celestar> what "silly things" are those?
12:18:07 <Celestar> I usually group vehicles by kind-of-lines
12:18:33 <Celestar> ors found while checking this document as XHTML 1.0 Transitional!
12:18:34 <Celestar> Result: 273 Errors, 180 warning(s)
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12:27:33 <sulai> this is only about how to add a patch variable to a savegame
12:35:18 <peter1138> Brianetta, only mere plans, unfortunately, and that was a long time ago :o
12:40:51 <Brianetta> peter1138: You're going to get my therapist bill
12:46:07 <SpComb> Celestar: how many unique errors?
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12:56:48 <Celestar> SpComb: haven't analysed
12:56:53 <Celestar> SpComb: try yourself :P
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14:52:54 <jpm> SmatZ: Thanks for fixing FS#2316(Airport deleting) so quickly!
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15:02:30 <SmatZ> jpm: you are welcome :)
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15:23:25 <jack> I have one question connected with Open TTD
15:23:40 <sulai> you're at the right place =)
15:24:28 <jack> I have about 100 road vehicle and now all of them are getting old, is any way to replace them quickly?
15:25:10 <sulai> jack go to the patch settings, turn "auto renew" on
15:25:30 <ln> sulai: you were going to hijack something.
15:25:44 <jack> I have turned this option
15:25:58 <sulai> do you habe enough money?
15:26:31 <sulai> are they going to depot regulary?
15:27:09 <jack> they go to depot, when they need
15:27:09 <sulai> try "send for servicing" order in the vehicle list
15:27:25 <sulai> In: what are you talking about?
15:27:44 <ln> sulai: who is this "In" you keep mentioning?
15:28:07 <sulai> Oh, sorry I misspelled you
15:28:14 <ln> you clearly said something about hijacking:
15:28:51 <Doorslammer> Surprise Badger and so on and so on
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17:04:47 <peter1138> Note: Once you have set a variable's value, you cannot change or modify that value!
17:04:53 <peter1138> ^ Does not sound like a variable to me...
17:06:46 <glx> variable constant maybe :)
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17:44:11 <Wolf01> I want to say "fine", but I think I'm not
17:44:58 * TrueBrain gives Wolf01 a cookie!
17:45:33 <TrueBrain> feel better now? :)
17:45:48 <Wolf01> Yesterday I had a LOTR marathon
17:46:09 <TrueBrain> *cough* *puke* *cough*
17:46:22 <Wolf01> 11.5 continued hours of movie
17:47:00 <Rubidium> been there, done that... and then the cinema we were in was closing for the last time
17:49:11 <Wolf01> next time might be a matrix marathon, but I need to buy the collector edition first, if it exists
17:52:40 <Prof_Frink> Wolf01: Only one problem with a Matrix marathon
17:53:01 <Prof_Frink> There was only one film. Anyone saying otherwise will be shot.
17:55:40 <Wolf01> 12 hours of the same film, picture by picture, we'll try to spot every aspect of it
17:58:10 <Rubidium> Prof_Frink: isn't the Matrix a toy to keep us busy about not thinking that we are actually in the Matrix?
18:03:11 <Wolf01> Another great movie I want to use for a marathon is star wars :O
18:03:29 <Wolf01> I need the collector edition too
18:04:11 <Prof_Frink> Wolf01: That has the advantage of getting much better half way through
18:04:18 <nckomodo> I did a jurassic park marathon on the way back home from virginia
18:04:32 <nckomodo> in that I watched the first video and then fell asleep
18:04:40 <Prof_Frink> Assuming you haven't smashed the TV at the sight of Jar Jar.
18:04:52 <nckomodo> the intent was there
18:04:58 <frosch123> Wolf01: you also need a hp marathon for the gfs while you are watching sw
18:06:11 <Wolf01> This week I'm trying to finish the Dune marathon... at least the first half, there are at most 100 pages left
18:06:33 <Wolf01> and then I'll start the other half
18:08:16 <Wolf01> I'm living for read books, watch entire movie series in a day and play OTTD
18:08:41 <Wolf01> at least there's OTTD :D
18:09:30 <Wolf01> I think I'll become civil engineer when I'll grow
18:11:59 <Prof_Frink> Concrete merchant.
18:13:26 <Wolf01> doh, a wall removed both my front wheels
18:14:49 * Wolf01 writes on the little black book: try to don't go straight on bends
18:15:57 <TrueBrain> add to it: don't eat yellow snow
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19:19:33 <TrueBrain> @mode +q *!*Yorick@*
19:19:33 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +q *!*Yorick@*
19:19:50 <TrueBrain> maybe then no longer we get the same question over and over here on IRC, and also on the forum (even after answering in multiple ways)
19:21:12 <peter1138> Has he been annoying again?
19:21:39 <TrueBrain> keeps on asking about the flags of the website ... I got that question one too many times of him now ..
19:29:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r14384 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Moving the first vehicle of a train elsewhere might require a new unitnumber for the remaining chain.
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19:29:56 <Belugas> hehe.. and to think people were complaining about my bad temper ^_^
19:31:15 <TrueBrain> hi Belugas :) Nice to see you again :)
19:31:24 <TrueBrain> how was your weekend? :)
19:35:05 <Belugas> yuo do not want to know. two words : sick kiddo
19:35:41 <Belugas> two more? wife panicking
19:35:43 * TrueBrain gives Belugas' kiddo a bit of happyness, so he gets well soon :)
19:43:04 <glx> Belugas: school is nice ;)
19:43:25 <Belugas> bring me the viruses!
19:45:47 <Belugas> lokks like all of them, according to my wife :D
19:46:12 <glx> mothers aren't a good info source for that
19:46:14 <Belugas> in my mind, it is a simple cold
19:46:49 <Belugas> at 4:00 in the mornign, she woke me up so i'd bring the kid at hospital. for an "otite"
19:47:19 <Belugas> the nurse almost laugh at me:"get him to bed wth some Tampra, it will be fine"
19:47:43 <Belugas> Quentin never had any, that is why my wife was panicking
19:48:29 <glx> he was living in a bubble ;)
19:49:33 <Belugas> ow, it's the slap in the face
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19:50:32 <Belugas> but it hurts when he cannot stop crying and saying that it hurts and that there's nothing yo can do :(
19:54:06 <Belugas> but all in all, it was an horrible weekend
19:57:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14385 /branches/0.6/ (15 files in 4 dirs): (log message trimmed)
19:57:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [0.6] -Backport from trunk:
19:57:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Invalid v->u.air.targetairport could cause crashes at several places [FS#2300] (r14383, r14344, r14343)
19:57:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Moving the first vehicle of a train elsewhere might require a new unitnumber for the remaining chain which might not be available (r14384)
19:57:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Trams jumping when reversing on a single trambit (like caused during road construction reworks) or when (manually) reversing in a corner [FS#1852] (r14371)
19:57:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Multiheaded parts in free wagon chains weren't connected (could cause desyncs) (r14366, r14362)
19:57:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [Win32] Some keypress combinations could be handled twice [FS#2206] (r14363)
19:58:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r14386 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files): (log message trimmed)
19:58:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-09-22 19:58:30
19:58:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 3 fixed by tucalipe (3)
19:58:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 3 fixed by arnaullv (3)
19:58:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 2 fixed by WhiteRabbit (2)
19:58:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: estonian - 1 fixed by kristjans (1)
19:58:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 fixed by glx (1)
20:01:51 <TrueBrain> and why is FauxFaux so happy?
20:02:49 <Belugas> false... things that were happening have suddenly be made visible
20:05:44 <Belugas> so whatshyouwhatshyou want?
20:11:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14387 /branches/0.6/src/lang/ (10 files in 2 dirs): [0.6] -Backport from trunk: language updates.
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20:15:46 <Belugas> not related to those who want to see tanks been shipped from one corner of the map th the other :P
20:18:30 <Belugas> has he lost his mind?
20:18:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> you notice that just now? :p
20:19:00 <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause2, you do not know your classics ;)
20:19:04 <TrueBrain> Belugas: in fact, I think he is finding it back, bit by bit
20:19:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> Belugas: indeed i don't... at best i know german translation of classics...
20:20:04 <Belugas> very first line of Iron Man, from Black Sabbath : "Has he lost his mind?"
20:20:24 <Belugas> And guess who wrote War Pigs? Black Sabbath
20:20:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> and you really expect me to know texts of any song?
20:20:44 <TrueBrain> those old people those days ...
20:21:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14388 /branches/0.6/ (6 files in 4 dirs):
20:21:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [0.6] -Prepare for 0.6.3-RC1.
20:21:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix (r14385): even more of the windowing system changed.
20:21:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> additionally, songs that are not directly in my line of interest...
20:21:18 * Belugas runs after TrueBrain, hitting him with a cane
20:22:57 <Belugas> look at the coward climbing that tree...
20:23:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> i once saw this T-Shirt in a shop, something along the lines of "intelligence is pursuing me, but i am faster." ... after all these years i'm still sad that i didn't buy it...
20:24:06 <TrueBrain> I liked the shirt saying: Broken Pixels, all blurred out :p
20:25:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> the t-shirt was fitting me in so many ways...
20:26:46 <Belugas> see how fast you are? you cannot even say bye before he actuallyis gone :P
20:27:35 <TrueBrain> which is REALLY hard with Wolf01
20:27:43 <TrueBrain> I tried to make a habbit to beat him to it ..
20:27:48 <Belugas> try with frosch123 now ;)
20:28:18 <TrueBrain> evne more impossible
20:28:34 <frosch123> SmatZ beated me once :)
20:31:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14389 /tags/0.6.3-RC1/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Release: 0.6.3-RC1.
20:32:18 *** Jezral is now known as TinoDidriksen
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20:39:24 <Belugas> the good soldier has performed his duty. time to retreat in the confort of a home sweet home
20:45:30 <SmatZ> [22:28:36] <frosch123> SmatZ beated me once :) <== what happened?
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21:11:17 <TrueBrain> "If it's too loud, you are too old"
21:11:37 <peter1138> Does anyone have...
21:11:55 <peter1138> "Hall Of The Mountain Womble"?
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21:25:57 <Tekky> Is the OpenTTD binary being distributed legally? Doesn't the source code of libpng, zlib and Freetype also have to be included on the site, since the OpenTTD binary links to them?
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21:27:14 <ln> I doubt their licenses say anything about "a site".
21:28:06 <Tekky> their licenses? I am talking about the GPL....
21:28:21 <Tekky> peter1138: Does your reply refer to my first or second question?
21:28:34 <ln> I didn't know libpng is GPL.
21:29:32 <Tekky> But as far as I can tell, the distribution of the OpenTTD binary violates the GPL, for the reasons that I stated.
21:29:52 <ln> Doesn't the source code of Windows need to be included on the site, because OpenTTD binary links to it?
21:33:05 <fjb> Yes, because everything that gets linked against GPLed code automatically inherits the GPL. So Windoes is automatically licensed under GPL now.
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21:33:28 <Tim> You are releasing 0.6.3? Is there a changelog somewhere? Anything but bugfixes?
21:33:40 <fjb> Microsoft is obviously violating the copyright law.
21:36:51 <Tekky> ln: No, this in not the case. Here is the text in the GPL which says so:
21:36:52 <Tekky> However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable.
21:37:11 <Tekky> my last message is a quote of the GPL
21:38:35 <ln> What version of DirectX does OTTD require, and is that normally shipped with a) XP, b) 2000, c) 98?
21:38:48 <Brianetta> fjb: Microsoft isn't distributing GPL software; how are *they* violating anything?
21:39:38 <Brianetta> "Everything that gets linked against GPLed code automatically inherits the GPL" is not true
21:40:25 <Brianetta> "Everything linked against GPL'd code must be GPL otherwise the code isn't licensed under the GPL" is true
21:57:27 <TinoDidriksen> Tekky, libpng, zlib, and Freetype also fall into the category of operating system libraries.
21:59:01 <TinoDidriksen> And in either case, you are never required to provide your own mirror of linked libraries. All you are required to do is provide the sources upon request, or refer to where they can be obtained.
22:02:27 <ln> TinoDidriksen: "refer to where they can be obtained" is not enough for GPLv2.
22:05:27 <TinoDidriksen> If someone asks you for the libpng sources and you link to the download on libpng.org, that's providing the sources.
22:06:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's a very arguable corner case
22:06:51 <Tekky> TinoDidriksen: It is not enough to provide the sources on request. You must provide a written offer for the source code.
22:07:51 <TinoDidriksen> ...that's what I meant - if someone takes your offer, linking to libpng.org is fulfilling that offer.
22:08:35 <TinoDidriksen> If the libpng.org site becomes defunct, then you must provide a different source, or mirror yourself.
22:08:38 <Tekky> TinoDidriksen: The GPL uses the word "accompany", not "provide". This imples that it must be available from the same source, in my opinion.
22:08:47 <Tekky> therefore, a link is not sufficient.
22:10:30 <TinoDidriksen> The files are there, have no further restrictions on download, and are identical to the ones you're using - that's sufficient. There is no difference in linking to your own site or the upstream provider, unless one is defunct.
22:10:31 <Tekky> in another place, the GPL uses the word "equivalent access" in this context.
22:10:53 <Tekky> providing a link is certainly not "equivalent access" when you provide the binary directly.
22:11:10 <TinoDidriksen> Binary is available via URL. So are sources.
22:12:11 <TinoDidriksen> If you distribute binary on CD, then you may have a point that you should be able to request a CD with sources, but until then any valid URL will do.
22:13:09 <Tekky> hmmmm, that's an interesting argument.... it may be valid as long as the other site is up....
22:14:31 <Tekky> I just read the GPL again and it explicity states that it must be made available from "the same place:
22:14:54 <ln> TinoDidriksen's interpretations cannot be deduced from the GPL.
22:14:54 <Tekky> If distribution of executable or object code is made by offering
22:14:55 <Tekky> access to copy from a designated place, then offering equivalent
22:14:57 <Tekky> access to copy the source code from the same place counts as
22:14:59 <Tekky> distribution of the source code, even though third parties are not
22:15:00 <Tekky> compelled to copy the source along with the object code.
22:15:08 <Tekky> oh, sorry, I wanted to post this text as one line.
22:16:36 <Tekky> if you provide a link to another site on the internet, this obviously does not satisfy the GPLs requirement of "the same place".
22:19:04 <Tekky> Your argument that libpng, zlib and Freetype qualify as OS libraries may be valid. The GPL states the following: "However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that...
22:19:06 <Tekky> ...component itself accompanies the executable."
22:19:12 <TinoDidriksen> Hm, hadn't seen that part. Either case for OpenTTD, they're not required to do so until someone actually asks for it, and also not required to do it for standard OS libraries.
22:19:15 <Rubidium> but "the same place" would mean the same .tar.gz (or whatever)
22:19:42 <TinoDidriksen> Nah, not same archive. Don't need object code and source code in the same archive.
22:20:13 <Rubidium> unless it is the place from where you offer it
22:20:18 <TinoDidriksen> Just that the vendor who distributes the binary should also distribute sources upon request.
22:21:44 <TinoDidriksen> So if someone requests the libraries, emailing them a few tar.gz's would definetly suffice. And that I know since that's how some court settlements have come out.
22:21:45 <Rubidium> anyhow, IMO that part of the GPL can be explained in at least two ways
22:22:07 <Tekky> However, the argument that zlib, libpng and Freetype qualify as OS libraries obviously does not apply to Windows.
22:22:52 <TinoDidriksen> Even on Win32 you're only required to do anything upon request. Not required to maintain a mirror 24/7 just in case.
22:23:36 <Rubidium> how does something like firefox do it? they have lawyers that oversee whether they do it correctly
22:24:04 <TinoDidriksen> Firefox does not use GPL libraries.
22:26:25 <Tekky> TinoDidriksen: A court settlement is an agreement between two parties and is not a legal judgement. Therefore, the result of a court settlement does not imply anything about the legal situation.
22:30:20 <Rubidium> TinoDidriksen: Firefox uses libfreetype, libfontconfig, zlib1g and libpng
22:31:03 * peter1138 hmms at variable 1C
22:31:17 <Rubidium> Firefox is can furthermore be licensed under GPL (or at least many many many parts of it)
22:31:26 <Rubidium> just search for GPL in their source tree
22:33:05 <TinoDidriksen> Freetype is BSD, FontConfig is MIT, zlib is BSD-style, libpng is zlib license. None are GPL.
22:33:24 <TinoDidriksen> Firefox itself is tripple-licences as MPL, GPL, and LGPL.
22:34:11 * peter1138 gets confused by Pikka's code :o
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22:35:16 <Rubidium> TinoDidriksen: so if you tripple or whatever-how-many-but-more-than-one license you can cherry pick the rules you like from those licenses and distribute using that?
22:36:15 <TinoDidriksen> You have to pick one license and stick to that. MySQL does the same with a GPL and a commercial proprietary version.
22:37:00 <TinoDidriksen> But Firefox and MySQL can allow that because they own the project wholly - they do not use GPL code themselves.
22:38:20 <Ammler> the OpenGFX license is coming to a end, GPL! :-)
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22:39:02 <Rubidium> so opengfx must now distribute grfcodec and boost to be legal?
22:40:25 <TinoDidriksen> Nah, Boost is BSD-style, not copyleft.
22:41:01 <Rubidium> but opengfx requires grfcodec and grfcodec requires boost
22:41:01 <Ammler> Has ordude a license for sample.cat?
22:41:25 <Ammler> or will there come the same again?
22:42:19 <TinoDidriksen> Anyways, Tekky, http://gpl-violations.org/ is good reading for that has worked with regards to GPL. Actual court judgements, injunctions, settlements, etc.
22:43:53 <TinoDidriksen> GRFCodec is GPL, but when you distribute the source you don't need to include Boost as that's not GPL.
22:44:26 <Rubidium> so WHY do we have to include zlib and friends?
22:44:49 <TinoDidriksen> You don't if they are not GPL, which they are not. Only to the GPL parts.
22:45:16 <TinoDidriksen> ...or a written offer redeemable for the sources...
22:45:57 <Tekky> TinoDidriksen: Thx, that link is very interesting
22:47:28 <Tekky> Rubidium: The thing is that openttd.org also distributes BINARIES of OpenTTD, not only source code.
22:48:18 <Tekky> Rubidium: and these binaries are linked to zlib, etc.
22:48:38 <TinoDidriksen> But still, zlib source would never be required as that's not a GPL library. If OpenTTD does link against GPL libraries, then written offers for the source of those should be included.
22:49:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> you are speaking rubbish
22:50:24 <TinoDidriksen> No, that's the core of the GPL...
22:50:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> all libraries that a GPL program links to must be either "system" or "GPL (compatible)"... you cannot link to anything else (and distribute the binary)
22:51:12 <Rubidium> yeah, we could ofcourse remove all binaries
22:51:21 <Rubidium> makes life much easier
22:51:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'd definitely call zlib etc. a "system" library
22:51:55 <TinoDidriksen> Incorrect. A GPL program can link against a closed source library without problems - but a closed source program cannot link against a GPL library without adhering to the GPL.
22:51:58 <Tekky> <TinoDidriksen> But still, zlib source would never be required as that's not a GPL library. <-- I disagree with this. The GPL requires that the source code of all modules the GPL program links to be made available. Therefore, it is irrelevant whether zlib, etc. is GPL or not.
22:52:32 <Tekky> Eddi: On the linux platform yes, but definately not on the Windows platform.
22:52:35 <Rubidium> Tekky: that is YOUR interpretation of the piece of ambiguous legalish
22:53:23 <Ammler> what is the problem, no source for zlib available?
22:53:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> Tekky: there are windows compile environments that come with zlib
22:53:32 <Tekky> Eddi: So your argument does not apply to distributing the Windows binary, as far as I can tell.
22:53:47 <TinoDidriksen> If Closed uses GPL, Closed must be GPL'ed -- if GPL uses Closed, nothing happens to Closed.
22:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, it's a grey area, but a very light grey...
22:54:24 * Rubidium reads the blob Tekky pasted 40 minutes ago as:
22:54:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> TinoDidriksen: if GPL links to closed, and closed does not fall under the system clause, GPL cannot be legally distributed in binary form
22:54:52 <DaleStan> <TinoDidriksen> if GPL uses Closed <-- then closed must be licensed in a way that permits it to be redistributed under the GPL.
22:55:49 <DaleStan> Or there must be a special exception that permits the GPL'ed work to be linked with the closed-source work.
22:56:35 <glx> like any exe running on windows?
22:56:39 <Rubidium> if distributing a binary is done by offering access (e.g. linking) from a designated place (e.g. openttd's website), then offering access (e.g. linking) of said source should be done from the same place (e.g. openttd's website)
22:58:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> TinoDidriksen: a library that is linked to by GPL does not fall under the "system" rule, where you don't have to do anything, you have to provide the source, no matter if the library is GPL or not
22:58:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> else you cannot distribute your program under the GPL
22:59:37 <TinoDidriksen> As I recall, that depends on whether you're doing dynamic or static linking. Static you're right - dynamic does not require it.
23:00:07 <DaleStan> <glx> like any exe running on windows? <-- That's covered by the system library exception.
23:00:13 <Tekky> Rubidium: I doubt that any judge would regard providing a link as "offering equivalent access (...) from the same place".
23:00:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> the GPL does not state anything about static or dynamic
23:01:05 <Rubidium> Tekky: in that case Debian is not following GPL
23:01:29 <Tekky> unless that link is on the same server.
23:01:49 <Tekky> or at least on the same internet site.
23:02:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, the link to the source must be on the same place as the link to the binary
23:02:10 <TinoDidriksen> GPL itself does not mention type of linking, but it has been discussed rather widely since dynamic linking allows for drop-in replacement libraries which may not be GPL.
23:02:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> where the files actually are does not matter (as long as access is "equivalent")
23:04:00 <Rubidium> but maybe downloading != downloading
23:04:29 <Tekky> DaleStan: thx for the link, very intersting
23:04:38 <Tekky> Eddi: ah, yes, I think you are right.
23:07:07 <Tekky> "the same place" just means that the same page that provides a link to the binary must also provide a link to the source code......
23:08:44 <TinoDidriksen> Not even. As long as the written offer is in the distribution, which it is, then people know who to contact for the source, should they so desire.
23:09:03 <peter1138> There are a million-and-one other projects that depend on libraries and don't include their source. Why do you think OpenTTD should be any different?
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23:14:54 <Tekky> I see one problem, though. OpenTTD may link to the zlib homepage, but it does not state anywhere which version was used for compiling the binaries. Therefore, I wouldn't consider this a valid link to the source code.
23:20:11 <TinoDidriksen> It isn't required. All that's required is that when someone asks for the source, you provide it to them. Providing a link on the OTTD site is the shortcut where people don't need to ask in most cases, and the few who do ask can do so via IRC/email/letter/etc.
23:20:14 <Belugas> peter1138, maybe because people love to argue and make THEIR point the Holy Graal of Truth
23:20:23 <Belugas> I'M RIGHT,YOUR"RE NOT
23:20:48 <Belugas> "do you know waht you are talking about?" "Yes, I've read it on the Internet"
23:21:43 <Belugas> off-"topic": Phantasm, are you pleased with the "fix" ?
23:22:30 <Tekky> but the main question is, is "zlib" a library that is "normally distributed" with the "major components of the operating system". Under Linux, I would say yes, but this does not apply to the Windows platform, I would say. Therefore, I believe that the distribution of Windows binaries requires the source code of zlib, libpng, etc. be made available.
23:24:40 <Tekky> Eddi pointed out that there are Windows compile environments that include zlib. I'm not sure if this is relevant or not, if these compile environments are not used for building the binary.
23:26:10 <TinoDidriksen> It's still not a GPL library. The normal way of distributing zlib on Win32 is via zlib1.dll, which is not part of the GPL exe.
23:30:12 <Tekky> even if you use dynamic linkage, it is still a "module", however, it is not a "module" that the "executable work" "contains". Hmmmm, according to this wording, there is a significant difference between static and dynamic linkage, but I once read that these two types of linkage are treated legally the same?
23:31:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's what the "no matter how they are packaged" part of the GPL is supposed to clarify
23:31:22 <Tekky> from what I read in the GPL, I tend to agree with TinoDidriksen's view that it matters whether it is dynamically or statically linked.
23:32:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> the GPL specifically refers to "links to", and not "part of"
23:32:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> and that means both ways of linkage
23:32:56 <Tekky> are you talking about version 3 of the GPL? I cannot find any of the quotations you use in version 2?
23:32:59 <TinoDidriksen> RMS thinks dynamic and static are the same, but he obviously would. Legal people are not so sure, because the object code really isn't part of the distributed binary. It links to a few headers, but the library itself can be replaced with any interface-compatible DLL/.so.
23:34:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> some parts of what i said may be GPLv3 specific, i don't have the text in front of me right now
23:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> which in such disputed cases may be the better choice :)
23:35:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> openttd is not "or above"
23:36:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> at least not last time licenses were discussed
23:36:47 <peter1138> That standard v2 includes "any later version"
23:37:07 *** MetalSleep is now known as Metalcore
23:38:08 <ln> also what matters is what ludde wrote.
23:39:54 <ln> peter1138: By that definition, "licensed under GPLv2" would always mean the same as "under GPLv2 or later".
23:41:15 <Ammler> :-) Tekky, but zlib is availabe, I don't see your problem...
23:41:52 <TinoDidriksen> Famous example of no "any later version" is the Linux kernel. No v3 for that.
23:42:59 <Tekky> the GPL states the following, which imples that "any later version" is not default:
23:43:01 <Tekky> If the Program specifies a version number of this License which applies to it and "any later version", you have the option of following the terms and conditions either of that version or of any later version published by the Free Software Foundation.
23:43:23 <TinoDidriksen> And you can remove that part from it.
23:44:02 <TinoDidriksen> And many did as they weren't comfortable with the whole license being magically allowed under a later version.
23:44:38 <Tekky> Ammler: This is just a discussion about whether the OpenTTD site is complying with the terms of the GPL.
23:45:21 <ln> Soooo what happens if I license something under GPLv4 or later?
23:45:44 <TinoDidriksen> Anywho, back to OTTD, it does not currently have to do anything extra. It's in compliance with the GPL; the dist includes the COPYING file.
23:47:35 <ccfreak2k> The OpenTTD source code has been made available. Doesn't that count as being compliant?
23:47:41 <TinoDidriksen> Besides, OTTD project itself cannot technically violate the GPL for their own code as they are the copyright holders. Only if others were to distribute OTTD would they have to comply.
23:49:53 <TinoDidriksen> (and here I am not sure whether grfcodec is an in-house subproject or a 3rd party library)
23:50:45 <ln> (or whether OTTD project is the copyright holder for what was taken from Chris Sawyer's work)
23:51:47 <DaleStan> <TinoDidriksen> (and here I am not sure whether grfcodec is an in-house subproject or a 3rd party library) <-- That's like trying to call GCC a third-party library.
23:52:11 <TinoDidriksen> No, I mean I am really not sure who owns grfcodec.
23:52:45 <Tekky> TinoDidriksen: The OpenTTD code was made by many developers. Therefore, even if all current OpenTTD developers agree to not use the GPL anymore, this would be a copyright infringement of the work of the previous OpenTTD developers and all people who made patches that were eventually submitted into trunk. Of course, the copyright infringement of the original TTD game is a completely different...
23:53:11 <DaleStan> Josef and I, mostly. I know Tron contributed some, and I think minime did too.
23:53:11 <Tekky> Therefore, the current OpenTTD team is bound by the GPL.
23:57:03 <TinoDidriksen> That's what copyright assignation is for. But, ln is correct that OTTD as a whole is technically illegal for another 100 years since it contains reverse-engineered code.
23:57:06 <TinoDidriksen> Even so, zlib when distributed as a dynamic library does not need source; you don't link against zlib, but against a few headers which define the interface, and those headers are all that's required.
23:57:40 <Tekky> by the way, I think OpenTTD also violates section 1 of the GPL, because it doesn't carry conspicuous dislaimers of warranty.
23:59:47 <Tekky> At least I have never noticed any disclaimer of warranty in my 3 years of playing OpenTTD, except when I once opened the COPYING file.
continue to next day ⏵
