IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-08-17
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00:11:44 <januzi> is there somebody that could tell me what is the name of the function that draws station coverage ?
00:13:15 <GoneWacko> No idea, but my suggestion would be to look at the code for pressing the station coverage button and backtrack (or is that forwardtrack?) your way from there; Although I'm sure you guessed that yourself :P
00:21:21 <januzi> GoneWacko: what about station list ? where should I look for it /
00:25:07 <januzi> never mind, I found it :)
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08:32:52 <Bjarni> and I can't fix it from here
08:38:04 <FR^2> :( I want the nightly and I want it _now_!!!111 (just kidding...)
08:40:37 <Ammler> FR^2: s/I/We/;s/just/not/
08:41:52 <Bjarni> the next person to complain about the nightly builds will feel the consequences
08:43:07 <Bjarni> I didn't tell you not to talk :/
08:43:53 <Bjarni> feel free to talk as long as you pay your $0.01/line fee
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08:44:45 <Ammler> he, is der a country called "Niegerlande" (german)?
08:48:19 <Bjarni> according to wikipedia Niger in in German is called... Niger
08:49:59 <Alberth> looks like 'niederlande' to me, ie The Netherlands or Holland
08:51:27 <Bjarni> it says The Netherlands o_O
08:52:35 <Gekz> Ammler: you spelt it wrong
08:52:48 <peter1138> Amazing how the Chinese have so many golds...
08:53:15 <Gekz> peter1138: they're the host nation meaning more of their poor, cheating athletes can participate
08:53:23 <Gekz> because they cant ship them all to other olympics
08:53:30 <Bjarni> first of all they have more than a billion people to pick from
08:54:00 <Bjarni> and the state really wants to win
08:54:41 <Gekz> It's just another Nazi Olympics
08:59:38 <Bjarni> I'm not sure any Olympic were completely honest and fair after they introduced possible financial gains in them
09:00:20 <Gekz> I'd have to say the Sydney and Athens Olympics were pretty fair
09:00:32 <Gekz> some of those guys got tested for drugs 3 times a day
09:02:07 <Bjarni> I don't care for sports events
09:02:52 <Bjarni> the thing I care most for about the Olympics is that it shouldn't come here
09:03:56 <Bjarni> <Gekz> how so <-- well it's always up to some judge to figure out who won
09:04:18 <Bjarni> and whatever they rule somebody can always find a mistake in the ruling
09:06:39 <Bjarni> like they said on the news (btw why is the general news about the Olympics and not stuff like "the railroad broke and stranded a whole lot of people during rushhour?) that some wrestler was nearly getting gold and then he got some ruling that he was too idle
09:06:57 <Bjarni> so he lost based on this and the guy who won on this ended up getting gold
09:07:23 <FauxFaux> For most sports they're competing on a set of completely arbitary rules.
09:07:42 <FauxFaux> Ignoring cycling (go England!) and sailing (go England!) and running (aw crap) etc. here.
09:07:44 <Gekz> Bjarni: that's not what I was talking about
09:07:50 <Gekz> I'm talking simple races and the like
09:08:31 <Ammler> sadly Netherlands got us again :-)
09:08:52 <Bjarni> I can tell about a race that wasn't fair
09:10:03 <ln> Ammler: can you speak on everyone's behalf?
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09:10:56 <Ammler> ln: I am happy, if you could prove the opposite :-)
09:11:21 <Bjarni> there is a race every year for sailing ships and the route is around an island. One year not so long ago there was a storm that moved them southwards to begin with (the right direction). When the first 4 ships made the turn to go west, the wind changed and blew west. Everybody else now had to battle a storm from the side. When the first 4 had to turn north, the wind changed again and blew them north. The rest (around 100 ships) we
09:11:21 <Bjarni> re still trapped trying to get south and since it was now directly against the storm they had to give up
09:11:50 * Vikthor greets channel after his return from Germany
09:12:12 <Bjarni> the speed record was improved a whole lot and it's estimated that it will never be beaten again
09:12:53 <Bjarni> in this case the part that made it unfair was the wind
09:13:46 <Ammler> Bjarni: that wasn't "unfair"
09:14:04 <Ammler> the weather is something elementary for such competitions.
09:14:39 <Ammler> (for most outside things...
09:14:51 <FauxFaux> Having world records for sailing is a little silly.
09:15:44 <Tekky> Does anyone know why the OpenTTD wiki is down and how long it will be down? Is it now moving server due to the successful fundraiser?
09:15:55 <Bjarni> <Ammler> Bjarni: that wasn't "unfair" <-- I think so even if it wasn't a human who made it unfair
09:16:32 <Ammler> don't think, it is down, because of that, "they" should be able to handle that without downtime...
09:16:42 <Alberth> Tekky: The server is down because it is not up. It will be up when you can reach it again.
09:17:01 <Alberth> Can somebody plz change the subject of the channel? :P
09:17:34 *** Bjarni changes topic to "0.6.2 | Website: *.openttd.org (Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No unauthorised bots | We Love the developers"
09:17:40 <Tekky> I like the subject of this channel. :-) Don't you love YAPP, too?
09:18:45 <Bjarni> Alberth: that request was pointless as you didn't tell what you wanted the topic to say instead :p
09:19:25 *** Bjarni changes topic to "0.6.2 | Website: *.openttd.org (Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No unauthorised bots | We Love YAPP"
09:20:00 <Alberth> Bjarni: I trust you to mention all the most important items there :P
09:21:07 <FauxFaux> How understandable is the YAPP code? I'm tempted to go look at one of those presignals things, but I fear for my sanity.
09:22:08 <Bjarni> I will give the disclaimer that nobody in here will ensure your sanity
09:22:18 <Bjarni> but feel free to check out the source and take a look
09:22:38 <FauxFaux> It has .cpp extensions, that has to be a good sign.
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09:23:11 <Bjarni> we have a .cpp file containing inline ASM :P
09:23:32 <Bjarni> it's fairly simple though
09:23:37 <Bjarni> and you don't need to mess with it
09:24:44 <FauxFaux> I'll complain about that in a minute, brb. :P
09:25:40 * Bjarni wrote the PPC part and later realised it looks like a copy paste from the PPC manual
09:25:50 <Bjarni> took me ages to figure out PPC ASM >_<
09:26:22 <Bjarni> oh well... it's working
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09:47:15 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14088 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix (r5994): librt isn't needed to be linked against explicitly as we don't use any functionality of it.
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09:54:05 <Ammler> can't Rubidium fix the nightly server? :-)
09:56:10 <Rubidium> as it isn't one of "our" servers
09:56:31 <Rubidium> and this is also one of the reasons we wanted a new server
09:58:27 <Rubidium> Yorick: proc06.bibl.u-szeged.hu
09:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause> so, where's mihamix?
09:59:20 <Rubidium> at his new home waiting for the phone company to connect him to the phone and internet
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10:00:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably going to help ;)
10:00:12 <Ammler> omg, that was a "private" server...
10:00:33 <Ammler> well, it worked nice for that.
10:00:38 <Rubidium> Ammler: if "private" means "not of a company" then yes
10:00:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: no, it's at a university
10:01:03 <Nite_Owl> Is the nightly download link broken or is it just me?
10:01:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just you, i can assure you ;)
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10:08:48 <Prof_Frink> Nite_Owl: Keep clicking it until it works.
10:09:40 <peter1138> Rubidium, my company's servers are surely private...
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10:10:20 <Prof_Frink> "lut.fi"? not "lut.ac.uk"?
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10:10:31 <Doorslammer> A whole screen of blue text...
10:10:39 <Prof_Frink> Doorslammer: -!- Netsplit charon.oftc.net <-> reticulum.oftc.net quits: eQualizer|dada, FR^2, nfc, stillunknown, dih, jni, Noldo, Amixbook, @Bjarni, Lakie, (+4 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
10:10:56 <Prof_Frink> So much simpler :)
10:11:10 <ln> what's wrong with "lut.fi"?
10:11:22 <Doorslammer> Ah, mIRC doesnt state if a netsplit occurs...
10:11:24 <Prof_Frink> ln: Loughborough's in England, innit?
10:11:54 <ln> Prof_Frink: probably, but lut.fi doesn't mean Loughborough of Finland.
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10:13:15 <ln> universities both, though.
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10:25:37 <ychaouche> I need the game manual
10:26:10 <DJNekkid> openttd.org seems down
10:27:07 <ychaouche> www.openttd.org up for me
10:27:23 <FauxFaux> Heh, good to see nobody is using the rdtsc code. :)
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10:32:31 <ychaouche> If I build a cargo depot close to a train station, is it gonna accept what the train comes with ? like coal, wood... ? because I want it to be carried by truck to a near place that is not reachable by train
10:32:54 <ychaouche> I tried it but the trucks wont load anything
10:33:05 <blathijs> ychaouche: If you set the train to "unload" at that station, it will
10:33:43 <blathijs> ychaouche: But you will have to build the truck stop and the station close together, they should both get the same name (if they both get different signs with names above them, they're too far apart)
10:34:59 <ychaouche> Ok, so "unload" order to be placed on the truck to get what's in the train station, and "load" to bring something to be carried by train, is that correct ?
10:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> ychaouche: you must place the truck stop exactly next to the train station, so they share a station sign
10:37:23 <blathijs> ychaouche: No, the other way around
10:38:00 <blathijs> ychaouche: The train must unload at the station, and the truck must load (though you can leave out the load, adding a "load" flag to an order means "don't leave until you're fully loaded"_
10:38:35 *** welshdragon is now known as welshdra-gone
10:42:35 <ychaouche> another question relating to train stations
10:42:44 <ychaouche> when you build one with say a width of 2
10:42:49 <ychaouche> how do you extend it ?
10:43:23 <ychaouche> like when you want to add a wagon
10:43:35 <ychaouche> build another station next to it
10:44:08 <Eddi|zuHause> you can add tiles to it, as long as you place them right next to it
10:44:34 <ychaouche> Ok, coders who did that are pros
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10:47:48 <FauxFaux> On a related note, there's no way to split a large station into two station entities, right? (ie. seperate destinations / cargos)
10:48:48 <peter1138> Not an existing large station, no.
10:49:01 <peter1138> You can of course build it as two adjacent stations.
10:49:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you can remove part of the station, and can build a new one with ctrl+click
10:51:24 <ychaouche> I can build an airport at the very beginning of the game, but how do I build aeronefs ?
10:51:47 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Klein%20Elsmuenster%20Transport,%2023.%20Maer%201942.png <- that's my version of a train<->truck transfer station
10:52:59 <peter1138> If I knew what an 'aeronef' was...
10:54:43 <Prof_Frink> peter1138: Like a nef, but aero
10:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> (but i still don't understand that catenary pylon between the road bridge and the bus station... (in front of the power station)
10:58:03 <FR^2> Is there any way to make sure a city will accept goods in the future? I often create a nice chain with a station in/near a city as endpoint, but then the city sometimes changes acceptance
10:58:03 <Eddi|zuHause> argh... i know why i did not play on with that game... :p
10:58:33 <Eddi|zuHause> FR^2: make sure the station is near the town center and the city is big enough
11:03:11 <ychaouche> Eddi|zuHause: your version is very neat. How much before getting this big ?!! (popultion > 10.000)
11:03:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, a city like the one in the picture won't ever stop accepting goods
11:03:35 <ychaouche> peter1138: Sorry, airplains.
11:03:47 <ychaouche> I guess aeronefs is french only
11:04:08 <Eddi|zuHause> ychaouche: that's not even my biggest city
11:04:35 <ychaouche> ok how big is you biggest ?
11:04:52 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14089 /trunk/src/ (train_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Fix [FS#2219]: trains not being able to find a route to a depot when the front is already in the depot.
11:06:14 <Eddi|zuHause> top three is 31.000, 27.000, 24.000
11:07:48 <Eddi|zuHause> getting big cities is quite easy, a portion of towns have (City) in their name, they have increased growth... then place a few bus stations in there
11:08:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if the "city" feature is already in 0.6, though
11:12:20 <Ammler> does the windows installer for stable releases create the OpenTTD folder in MyDocs?
11:12:39 <Ammler> (and copy original grfs there)
11:13:09 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14090 /trunk/src/ (roadveh.h roadveh_cmd.cpp): -Fix: the vehicle window of articulated road vehicles would show the clone/refit button when the vehicle was not completely stopped in the depot.
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11:18:37 <peter1138> 5500 passengers waiting at one station :o
11:19:08 <peter1138> Good ol' passenger destinations ;)
11:20:49 * peter1138 adds another four 5-tile trains for the route.
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11:22:08 <peter1138> Should help a bit, now there are some spaces as the terminus at the next station is not cleared.
11:41:45 *** welshdra-gone is now known as welshdragon
11:49:49 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r14091 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp: -Cleanup (r14083): Remove superfluous '#include's.
11:51:49 *** pm|away is now known as planetmaker
11:52:28 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14092 /trunk/src/ (order_cmd.cpp order_func.h): -Cleanup (r14083): dead code, i.e. unused function.
11:56:53 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... these early cargo trams could use a slightly higher capacity
11:57:59 <Eddi|zuHause> one wagon of these carries 4t, while a rail wagon carries 15t
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12:10:13 <peter1138> Hmm, five routes out from my central major city, four of them from one station. Maybe five platforms isn't enough :)
12:14:30 <Ammler> peter1138: do you play a network cargo game?
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12:18:16 <peter1138> Yay, replacing various steam engines with EE10000s :D
12:19:07 <peter1138> Hmm, I can't remember when the first DMU comes :o
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12:28:40 <peter1138> 29 trains at five platforms.
12:36:37 <peter1138> Hmm, trains seem to automatically prefer terminus platforms if they're going to go back when they leave.
12:37:27 <hylje> or just pathing beyond destinations
12:40:50 <Wolf01> WTF! where's the win32 nightly? when I click on the link it says "firefox can't establish a connection with the server"
12:41:39 <Bjarni> as several people have noticed already: we have server problems
12:41:48 <Gekz> Bjarni: put it in the topic
12:42:02 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> Hmm, I can't remember when the first DMU comes :o <- the VT-137 comes in 1935 :p
12:42:13 *** Bjarni changes topic to "0.6.2 | we have server problems | Website: *.openttd.org (Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No unauthorised bots | We Love YAPP"
12:42:37 <Gekz> Bjarni: no-one will notice it I tells ya
12:42:37 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, wrong, there is no such thing as a VT-137. You made it up.
12:42:47 <Gekz> WE HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THE NIGHTLIES SERVER
12:43:03 <Eddi|zuHause> !!1!1111!!!eins!elf
12:44:36 <peter1138> Yay, it's now eight platforms.
12:45:02 <Ammler> Wolf01: BOTTD should work
12:45:54 <Wolf01> I have 2 repositories, but I'm working on 2 patches and I don't want to revert :P
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12:47:20 *** Bjarni changes topic to "0.6.2 | Some stuff on *.openttd.org is offline"
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12:48:43 <frosch123> do we no longer love yapp?
12:49:03 <Gekz> Bjarni: you seriously broke it
12:49:10 <Ammler> frosch123: no need anymore, it is in trunk... :-P
12:50:16 <Ammler> now, people will only complain about YAPP...
12:50:58 <frosch123> Ammler: ah yes - of course - once married ...
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12:53:59 <Ammler> why is that rv debug output that important? (low level)
12:54:15 <peter1138> Yeah, maybe those TTDPatch players who believe that PBS should be able to be mixed with pre-signals...
12:54:41 <Ammler> peter1138: it is very well combineable with presignals
12:55:08 <Ammler> you can now build prios through double lines :-)
12:57:52 *** planetmaker is now known as pm|away
12:57:54 <Ammler> one little thing I have trouble with is, the waiting for free path, if there will never be a free path...
12:58:53 <Ammler> but that might a very tricky one, else michi_cc would fixed it a long time ago, I told him that many times :-)
12:58:59 * dragonhorseboy used to have 2-platform through stations on some of my mainlines with no platform signals at all but the trains rather just picking their right of way through it ;)
12:59:08 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the primary and secondary colours on the trams are mixed up...
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12:59:24 <dragonhorseboy> to me it just seem easier but to our own of course
12:59:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i need 2cc setting for each vehicle type individually :p
12:59:47 <dragonhorseboy> eddi heh do you use 2cc often I take it?
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13:00:11 <Eddi|zuHause> or infrastructure sharing, so i can use an extra company for the trams than for the tram stops
13:00:33 * Brianetta is chatting from Esquires Coffee Shop, Eldon Square, Newcastle upon Tyne
13:03:27 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: do you browse with Konqueror?
13:03:41 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i wrote that post out of fun...
13:04:22 <Eddi|zuHause> browsing the forum is ok, but posting is the horror...
13:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> ... that use a browser other than IE and Firefox
13:08:43 <dragonhorseboy> hmm 1.63 seem a bit low but then I guess thats just one specific group of users tho
13:09:43 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: so firefox on linux isn't meant as linux browser?
13:09:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i'm not sure...
13:10:13 <dragonhorseboy> hmm I wonder what kind of $ midori must be showing by now
13:11:15 <dragonhorseboy> if its showing as 0.00 then I think there's an issue with whatever app is trying to gather the status
13:11:31 <Ammler> I previed a little bit KDE4, can't think of abstain from Konqueror then...
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13:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause> what's a midori?
13:14:33 <hylje> a flavor of Vista the Windows
13:15:34 <dragonhorseboy> midori is just a good web browser, next time figure out how to look online? :p
13:16:12 <Yorick> midori is a flavor of Vista
13:16:53 <Gekz> Yorick: you're completely wrong
13:17:03 <Gekz> its Microsoft's new economy-breaking bitch
13:17:12 <Gekz> they're new non-Windows OS plan
13:17:17 <Yorick> the economy is already broken
13:20:47 <dragonhorseboy> well I need to afk for a while to shower ^_^
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13:42:47 <Nite_Owl> Anyone have an idea when the servers will be back up?
13:43:42 <Rubidium> Nite_Owl: please inquire at the University of Szeged
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13:44:31 <Rubidium> or actually the library thereof
13:45:02 <dragonhorseboy> gekz...either way I've got two installs of midori .. one on windows and one on the occassional bsd ... sometimes I'm wishing I had known of midori (windows-wise) a lot earlier but go figure
13:45:03 <dragonhorseboy> it loads quickly and doens't even use much resource altogether
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13:56:07 <peter1138> I want another coop game...
13:56:24 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14093 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2230]: don't flood a NewGRF industry when it implicitly tells that it wants to be build on water (land shape flags bit 5).
13:58:07 * dragonhorseboy would had signed up too if I even knew anyone with my version of openttd ^_^
13:59:55 <peter1138> Easy enough to keep multiple versions, heh...
14:00:15 <Wolf01> nice... I thought that bug was caused by the oldAI
14:02:48 <dragonhorseboy> peter..not really especially when they can't even use cfg's .. but then meh
14:03:29 <dragonhorseboy> wolf01 heh I think its probably related to the water airports too
14:04:15 <peter1138> Yeah, airports are industries now... :o
14:06:01 <Wolf01> the only airport-industry which exists in the game is the oil rig... and the AI doesn't build industries...
14:09:53 <peter1138> I wonder if rail type support should be overlay *only*...
14:10:50 <frosch123> what would be the alternative?
14:11:06 <hylje> overlay somewhere, somewhere not
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14:12:12 <peter1138> frosch123, current style sprites which include the landscape.
14:12:47 <frosch123> then I vote for overlay only :)
14:14:45 <dragonhorseboy> sorry didn't noticed you were asking me peter... to put it short: moving from 0.5.3 to anything newer seem to not even use the provided cfg file at all for no reason (meaning: no custom settings applied) ... never can figure out whats even with that [and for a test I got 0.4.7 and it saw the ex-053 cfg just fine]
14:15:43 <peter1138> Anything newer uses the config in your home directory.
14:16:16 <dragonhorseboy> home directory? thats the openttd folder .. which is why I just don't understand this
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14:20:02 <dragonhorseboy> what do you exactly mean by home directory?
14:20:09 <peter1138> The usual meaning of home directory.
14:20:32 <dragonhorseboy> and that is the openttd folder ... ?
14:20:50 <glx> where is your openttd.cfg?
14:22:02 <dragonhorseboy> glx...the one for 053 was in the openttd folder as always had been for several updates (I can't remember the first openttd version I used.. probably like 041-something?)
14:22:04 <glx> <@peter1138> Anything newer uses the config in your home directory. <-- unless it finds an openttd.cfg in bin dir
14:22:30 <glx> dragonhorseboy: what settings are not applied?
14:23:33 <dragonhorseboy> glx...just about anything thats not original as far as I could tell when comparing 053 and 061 while both were running (especially in train-wait-at-signal being noticeable)
14:26:54 <peter1138> Anyway, only server owners edit the config by hand. Everyone else does the configuration in game...
14:27:13 <glx> some settings are not in GUI
14:27:13 <dragonhorseboy> trying find it again one moment glx
14:27:34 <dragonhorseboy> and peter...well the in-game patch window obviously only has like about half of the possible settings present so figured
14:36:08 <dragonhorseboy> oneway is 76 (as its often for traffic managing either on long mainline or at fullload-waiting factory/etc) ... twoway is 26 (since its often only in certain junctions&stations where if its not free after a while the train can just go hoof a different route to drop off the same cargo)
14:36:55 <dragonhorseboy> with the default settings (as soon as you use that instead of custom in some of the saves I've had) trains just suddenly start showing up in odd places or keep turning around too often
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14:50:09 <dragonhorseboy> either way glx just wondering about one question now that I think about it
14:50:39 <dragonhorseboy> oh hm nevermind
14:51:19 <Bjarni> dragons and horses aren't related :p
14:53:10 <dragonhorseboy> bjarni..nah I was just thinking of a file directory question
14:53:10 <dragonhorseboy> and you're weird
14:54:16 <Bjarni> you call yourself a dragonhorse and you call me weird???
14:58:21 <Gekz> Bjarni: you killed the poor boys self-esteem
14:58:37 <Gekz> now he's going to be a rapist
14:59:00 <Bjarni> he considers it a positive word
14:59:04 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: I've tried.
14:59:30 <Bjarni> <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: I've tried. <-- being a rapist?
14:59:37 <Prof_Frink> forgetting about Sacro
14:59:50 <Prof_Frink> Oh, Sacro? YOu just lost the game.
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15:04:07 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: glx * r14094 /trunk/src/video/win32_v.cpp: -Revert (r14071): caused more problems than it solved
15:13:53 <Eddi|zuHause> multistop for drivethrough stops needs a lookahead for the next stop, when one can't use non-nonstop orders...
15:30:58 <Tekky> I have a little problem with ECS Vectors: I need to transport sand, but I am unable to find any train wagon type which can be refitted to sand. I am using DBSetXL with the ECS extension.
15:33:45 <Progman> the dbsexl with the ECS extension got sand-waggons ;)
15:35:07 <Progman> the first after the pax-trains can transport sand
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15:35:14 <Tekky> ah, I just noticed that the DBSetXL ECS extension did not load properly, because it is incompatible with some other NewGRF I had loaded.
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15:59:33 <Tekky> shouldn't FS#2057 be reopened if it was closed for being fixed by r14071 but then reverted by r14094?
16:20:16 <Rubidium> Tekky: with no way to reproduce or to get information about the issue I don't think it's useful to reopen
16:22:01 <Rubidium> and the solution to that bug, centering at (min_x + max_x)/2, (min_y + max_y)/2, fails on many many more systems than the single system of that person
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16:47:01 <FauxFaux> Anyone happen to have a latest stable windows build with desynch debugging on? :)
16:51:43 <hylje> Rubidium: suggestion to use a macro avg(A, B)
16:52:43 <hylje> oh nevermind, just eyed some code in the top of my viewport
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17:30:49 <Eddi|zuHause> not sync, commit!
17:30:57 <peter1138> How silly. Individual petrol stations in TTRS3 do not accept fuel oil...
17:33:39 <Ammler> (industry set, I meant)
17:33:51 <peter1138> They accept fuel-oil, but only 6/8.
17:34:48 <peter1138> I wanted to setup a road distribution network to lots of petrol stations, but most won't accept it :(
17:36:11 <Wolf01> I have a city full filled with petrol stations... an airport and that's no more a matter
17:38:40 <Ammler> hmm, didn't recognize that, just the walking around in the city...
17:39:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, the 6/8 thing is kinda stupid...
17:39:23 <Ammler> you need to move the drop around every 10-20 years...
17:40:17 <Ammler> does a roadstop also need 8/8?
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17:51:18 <Eddi|zuHause> any station needs 8/8
17:52:38 <Ammler> such things will change with cargo dest anyway :-9
17:53:15 <Roujin> cargodest has nothing to do with this 8/8 mechanism?
17:56:44 <Ammler> hmm newgrf gui doesn't apply to trunk
17:57:09 <Ammler> Roujin: how does calc how many a destination will accept?
17:57:59 <Ammler> currently it is random, but I assume, that will change...
18:01:01 <peter1138> It will still be 6/8, and thus not accept with only one.
18:03:53 <peter1138> Was there a working YAPP-based order priority patch?
18:04:23 <Roujin> cargodest currently has only very basic support of biasing where cargos will go. currently only station type (train, bus, airport, port) influences it
18:04:41 <Roujin> but it's mentioned in the todo list
18:06:23 <blotek> why ottd wiki doesnt work ?:>
18:08:11 <januzi> where can I find plstations_d definition ?
18:10:54 <Rubidium> I reckon station_gui.cpp of an 'ancient' OTTD
18:12:02 <FauxFaux> Someone fix the wiki. /o\
18:13:38 <Rubidium> FauxFaux: I'd say call the sysadmin of the server
18:14:27 <Rubidium> I'd've done it myself IF I knew his/her phone number
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18:20:56 <peter1138> Hmm, cargodest does not understand refitting.
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18:22:35 <Tekky> peter1138: I am unaware of any order priority patch, and I am also unaware of any YAPP patch concerning priorities.
18:26:14 <peter1138> A simple no would suffice ;)
18:26:28 <peter1138> Bah, silly articulated RV got stuck on a double level crossing :o
18:32:19 <peter1138> Do you agree with only supporting overlay drawing for new rail/road types?
18:34:17 <FauxFaux> Looking at the desync logs (obviously the wiki page that's supposed to be telling me what to look for is gone), ignoring tree_cmd.cpp:675 discrepancies, it appears to be Random [10881/16] src/vehicle.cpp:1511, which is in the middle of the breakdown code.. even though breadowns are disabled. This only happens on toyland, any wild guesses?
18:36:57 <peter1138> Since when did trains stop instantly?
18:37:07 <FauxFaux> The turn around button has made them stop quickly for a while.
18:37:31 <peter1138> The turn around button makes them stop slowly.
18:37:37 <peter1138> The stop button is now stopping instantly.
18:37:57 <Prof_Frink> The dynamite button makes them stop rather sharpish
18:37:58 <Yorick> I suspect the new autoreplace and the command merge
18:38:29 <Prof_Frink> Or, indeed, reversing the next signal
18:38:38 <peter1138> r14076... checking.
18:39:17 <Yorick> FauxFaux: it does not only happen on toyland
18:39:26 <Yorick> Brianetta reproduced it on temperate
18:39:34 <FauxFaux> It happens every approximately 60 seconds on toyland for meee.
18:39:55 <FauxFaux> Yorick: Issue number?
18:40:12 <Yorick> not submitted yet, I think
18:41:12 <frosch123> oh, the "cur_speed" :s
18:43:30 <Yorick> frosch123: you just copied the aircraft one :)
18:44:53 <Yorick> you also forgot the start/stop callback
18:46:50 <frosch123> Yorick: You have to check whether I should not have added invalidating of the vehicle lists :p
18:48:31 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r14095 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix (r14076): Trains shall not stop instantly.
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18:55:09 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... where is the calculation of transfer credit done?
18:55:21 <Ammler> is there a debug level, which you see clients commands?
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18:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i think there is a special define for that
19:01:41 <DorpsGek> Bjarni: everyone was last seen in #openttd 29 weeks, 2 days, 0 hours, 9 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: * Everyone has aids
19:03:27 * FauxFaux hurls a dinner plate into the air.
19:04:38 * Bjarni puts on his tin foil hat and calls the newspaper on a video phone to explain the situation
19:04:53 <CelestarT42p> peter1138: I'm just playtesting cargodest (=
19:05:25 <peter1138> Me too. I fixed a refit bug.
19:07:03 <Eddi|zuHause> CelestarT42p: multistop for drive through stops needs a lookahead for the next station
19:07:30 <Eddi|zuHause> it's vital since you can't leave out the order because of cargodest
19:08:31 <Yorick> there is currently no multistop for drive through stops
19:09:12 <frosch123> Yorick: but eddi pointed out a second issue, that seems to be a lot harder solvable than the first one
19:09:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Yorick: CelestarT42p said he wanted to tackle that problem, so i give my input about what i think might be needed
19:11:16 <peter1138> No multistop for drive through stops...?
19:11:35 <frosch123> multistop for non non-stop orders
19:12:13 <Eddi|zuHause> technically, there is multistop, only it misbehaves
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19:16:22 <CelestarT42p> peter1138: where can I clone?
19:16:44 <CelestarT42p> peter1138: found it ;)
19:16:56 <Yorick> "<Bjarni> Roujin's KONBANWA" :O
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19:19:53 <Yorick> Bjarni: translation :)
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19:20:52 <Bjarni> looks like it not only failed on the meaning, it even failed on every single word
19:21:08 <Bjarni> which translator did you use?
19:23:08 <Bjarni> It is dense, it is, it is [wa] Roujin <-- this is what babelfish translates it to
19:23:25 <Bjarni> that makes even less sense
19:24:16 <CelestarT42p> can't build any bridges :S
19:25:52 <Eddi|zuHause> wrong year? wrong bridgeset?
19:26:06 <Eddi|zuHause> we need car ferries...
19:26:39 <Eddi|zuHause> or horse carriage ferries ;)
19:26:54 <Eddi|zuHause> and we need an 18th century industry set...
19:30:20 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: and houses
19:30:26 <Bjarni> if I write the same thing in kanji on both google and babelfish they both come up with a new translation
19:30:34 <Bjarni> but they have yet to get the right one :P
19:32:38 <glx> I just needed to use a kanji to romaji converter to understand it
19:33:10 <Bjarni> I think you mean kana to romaji, but that's besides the point
19:33:36 <Bjarni> I didn't write any kanji as Roujin has kanji encoding problems (or font problems)
19:34:04 <Bjarni> glx: wouldn't you agree that the translators should be able to translate this one?
19:34:25 <Bjarni> a translator that fails this one is kind of worthless
19:34:33 <peter1138> I've just realised...
19:34:44 <peter1138> We can no longer blame Bjarni when autoreplace breaks, can we?
19:35:38 <Bjarni> hylje: frosch molested it and removed all the known bugs
19:35:41 <Ammler> did frosch commit his patch?
19:35:55 <glx> Bjarni: though you misspelled it ;)
19:36:06 <frosch123> I already survived 29 hours :)
19:36:12 <Bjarni> and it's hard to recognise it anymore
19:36:35 <Bjarni> glx: I know but it's such a common spelling error that it's in the dictionary
19:37:00 <Bjarni> but writing it correctly in either kana or kanji didn't help the translators >_<
19:37:17 <frosch123> r14083 - r14085 and some more clean-ups
19:38:02 <Ammler> maybe you disconnected the nightly, so nobody can test it P
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19:38:30 <frosch123> I guess yesterday's nightly was available yesterday
19:38:54 <glx> Bjarni: but google gives a better translation (still not right) with the correct spelling
19:39:36 <glx> at least the global sense of the sentence is there ;)
19:39:50 <Bjarni> but that's not good enough
19:39:58 <Bjarni> it's still somewhat fucked
19:40:35 <Rubidium> not to mention that today's nightly is more or less succesful too
19:41:33 <Bjarni> now that's really fucked up
19:42:03 <Bjarni> both the translation and appending さま to Roujin
19:42:06 * peter1138 ponders doing 'abandoned rail' as a new track type...
19:43:27 <Sacro> peter1138: if it is unused then why?
19:44:55 <hylje> Sacro: it used to be used, thats why
19:46:54 <peter1138> It used to be used, then it was not used.
19:47:45 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: did you consider railtypes with speed limit?
19:48:18 <hylje> what attributes a rail segment may have
19:49:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure people will soon complain about adding support for even more railtypes afterwards ;)
19:49:26 * Bjarni decreases the trust estimation of google translate from "untrustworthy" to "worthless toy only useful for a laugh"
19:49:50 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, of course :)
19:49:58 <peter1138> But gauge is not relevant.
19:51:27 <Sacro> peter1138: not what she said
19:55:24 <peter1138> glx, what would happen if it's too heavy?
19:55:57 <hylje> same way electric trains are locked out from non-el
19:56:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hylje: weight can change outside of depots, electric traction can't
19:56:30 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14096 /trunk/src/ (9 files): -Codechange: merge the shared order's vehicle list management to a single location.
19:57:28 <hylje> but a train may stop loading after the track it is on couldnt handle it
19:59:17 <hylje> weight changes not at depots, but at stations
20:08:10 <peter1138> Hmm, some kind of bug with destination s:o
20:11:53 <peter1138> Also it would be useful if RVs could overtake at a drive-through stop
20:12:34 <Sacro> Rubidium: argh, apostrophe abuse
20:13:07 <Prof_Frink> apo'stophe abu'se?
20:13:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see an apostrophe
20:13:43 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i'm sure that has been suggested at least half a dozen times :p
20:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and where is the problem there?
20:15:47 <Eddi|zuHause> could possibly be "orders'"
20:15:50 <Rubidium> Sacro: what's wrong with it? 's is used for possession, right?
20:16:03 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: I think you're right.
20:16:08 <Rubidium> or however one would write pos+es+ion
20:16:18 <Prof_Frink> If orders is plural
20:16:25 <Sacro> hmm, doesn't look right
20:17:13 <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: Just claim to be a greengrocer.
20:18:22 <Rubidium> but still, what's wrong?
20:18:36 <peter1138> "its" is possession.
20:18:55 <Rubidium> should I say "Sacro beer is stolen by Prof_Frink" or "Sacro's beer is stolen by Prof_Frink"?
20:19:11 <Sacro> Rubidium: i don't drink :p
20:19:29 <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: Sacro is a freak
20:19:29 <Rubidium> if I was abusing apostrophes the former should be grammatically right
20:19:52 <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: No, the abuse was "order's" rather than "orders'"
20:20:39 <ln> oh, we're talking about apostrophes
20:21:22 <Rubidium> Prof_Frink: also if I mean the vehicle list management of a shared order?
20:21:52 <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: I give up. Sacro's wrong. He also lost the game.
20:22:54 <ln> Let me suggest that "order's" looks strange to Sacro because the 's genitive is usually used for people and other living things.
20:23:03 <Roujin> that remembers me of a funny sentence I've read somewhere..
20:23:13 <Eddi|zuHause> so... why do we still not have underground rails?
20:23:25 <Prof_Frink> peter1138! NewUndergroundRails!
20:23:50 <SmatZ> toyland is not multiplayer safe since r10770 (probably) and nobody reported it :-P
20:23:52 <peter1138> We have underground rails
20:24:11 <Eddi|zuHause> we have no underground curves, switches or signals, though ;)
20:24:18 <DorpsGek> Bjarni: Commit by rubidium :: r10770 /trunk/src (9 files) (2007-08-03 19:36:00 UTC)
20:24:19 <DorpsGek> Bjarni: -Codechange: use the pool item class as super class for the vehicle struct.
20:24:20 <DorpsGek> Bjarni: -Codechange: do not force "special" vehicles to be allocated in the low 1024 vehicle slots and non "special" vehicles in the rest of the slots.
20:24:27 <Prof_Frink> SmatZ: Toyland is not sanity-safe
20:24:43 <peter1138> We do. We have all of those things. You just can't see them.
20:24:47 <Roujin> it goes like.. Capitalisation is the difference between "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse" and "I helped my uncle jack off a horse" :P
20:25:15 <Bjarni> the topic is lack of sanity
20:26:04 <ln> oh my gebühreneinzugszentrale, die topic sagt nichts om vilken språk man borde tala.
20:27:08 <peter1138> SmatZ, by "probably" do you mean you are guessing, or you have tested and confirmed this?
20:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> it read like "i'm not sure if this is really the cause"
20:28:07 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: same here
20:28:07 *** planetmaker is now known as pm|away
20:28:32 <Bjarni> now who is going to make our new planets?
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20:29:29 <SmatZ> peter1138: probably, I haven't not tested r10769 yet ... but before this commit, effect vehicle IDs were separated for normal vehicle IDs ... and bubble generator in toyland generates bubbles (effect vehicles) in a non-synchronised way
20:29:48 <Ammler> ln: yxou should tell that, if they enter not leave...
20:29:58 <SmatZ> peter1138: or something like that :)
20:30:36 <CelestarT42p> peter1138: going to do some MP test tomorrow
20:31:27 <peter1138> SmatZ, right, it uses InteractiveRandom()...
20:31:54 <peter1138> CelestarT42p, well, I'm going to work tomorrow :p
20:32:17 <CelestarT42p> peter1138: I will too, but I'll set up some server and hope others will join :P
20:32:19 <peter1138> SmatZ, change to Random, and save the spritenum...
20:32:42 <peter1138> Which, incidentally, always was saved...
20:35:00 <Roujin> CelestarT42p: if I'm online I'll surely join
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20:36:12 <SmatZ> peter1138: hehe glx came with that idea, too :) I wonder if there is any reason why it is coded this way...
20:37:55 <glx> it was already like that in r942
20:39:08 <Roujin> by the way, I'm wondering about something in CargoDest. Say the stations graph is not a tree (so there a circles). Which way from A to B will a cargopacket take?
20:39:33 <glx> hmm indeed it is since r942
20:40:04 <Roujin> Any? Only shortest? And if the latter, how is "shortest" measured? Number of hops? Sum of manhattan distances? Something more sophisticated?
20:42:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Roujin: i think the sophistication of that was pushed back :)
20:42:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i assume it's number of hops currently
20:49:43 <CelestarT42p> I wonder wth is wrong with my conn
20:49:43 <CelestarT42p> I wonder wth is wrong with my conn
20:50:01 <CelestarT42p> Roujin: "shortest" route is taken
20:50:47 <Roujin> CelestarT42p: As in Manhattan?
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20:51:36 <Roujin> or as in shortest path of an unweighted graph
20:52:11 <Eddi|zuHause> shortest path in a weighted graph that might not have any sensible weights currently...
20:54:53 <CelestarT42p> Roujin: Manhattan * vehicle_type_weight
20:55:55 <Roujin> ah, thanks! that's probably doing quite well..
20:56:53 <Roujin> and I suppose it's going all-or-nothing, meaning all packets will take the best path (calculated with that measure)
20:56:57 <CelestarT42p> where the type_weight is currenty 1,2,3,4 for air, rail, road, ship
20:57:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it might be better if it would be somewhat distributed
20:57:33 <CelestarT42p> doing this differently is easy later on
20:57:48 <CelestarT42p> just derive a new class from Routing_t and rewrite UseVehicle()
20:57:54 <Roujin> Eddi|zuHause: well that's open for discussion..
20:58:12 <CelestarT42p> the idea of the whole thing is to make it easily extensible
20:59:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Roujin: there are two separate problems: a) defining a better weight calculation (that should be pretty easy, and probably adjustable like yapf penalties), b) allowing people to choose (randomly?) by the optimal or some slightly less optimal routes
21:00:38 <CelestarT42p> Eddi|zuHause: a) isn't easy.
21:00:49 <CelestarT42p> coding it is easy, defining it is not easy
21:00:58 <CelestarT42p> b) is quite simple imho
21:01:10 <CelestarT42p> I'm going to bed now :D
21:02:28 <Eddi|zuHause> not all people going from Halle to Leipzig take the IC (fastest, most expensive), some take the RE (slightly slower, but cheaper) or the S-Bahn (a lot more intermediate stops, same price as RE)
21:03:54 <CelestarT42p> Eddi|zuHause: I assume the IC is like 7 minutes faster?
21:04:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i have not checked the actual numbers...
21:04:44 <Eddi|zuHause> the RE might have an additional stop, not sure
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21:05:14 <CelestarT42p> I gotta go anyway
21:05:25 <Roujin> I think I have just spotted a bug concerning YAPP/PBS... but in my cargodest build
21:05:29 <CelestarT42p> we can discuss tomorrow, cu
21:06:00 <Roujin> wonder if it happens in trunk too...
21:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause> IC: 32 min, RE: 33 min, S: 44min
21:07:22 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14097 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Fix [FS#2085]: one couldn't get a list of vehicles sharing an order when the number of orders was 0; you could see that the vehicles had a shared order though.
21:07:27 <CelestarT42p> that's no big difference
21:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there's one of each at each hour
21:08:12 <Eddi|zuHause> there's not a big difference if you go 160km/h or 200km/h for 40km...
21:08:25 <Eddi|zuHause> especially when you have an intermediate stop at the airport
21:08:55 <Rubidium> where the IC waits longer than the RE
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21:10:19 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... this query thing is silly, it adds 7 minutes walking from "Leipzig Hbf" to "Leipzig, Hauptbahnhof"...
21:10:35 <Eddi|zuHause> so substract 7 minutes from each of the times above...
21:13:19 <CelestarT42p> Eddi|zuHause: bahn.de?
21:14:11 <Eddi|zuHause> (Nahverkehrsgesellschaft Sachsen-Anhalt)
21:14:49 <ln> Eddi|zuHause: what's their schedule for the Moon?
21:15:09 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: through the tunnel to the centre of the moon?
21:15:38 <CelestarT42p> sounds like Munich(-Pasing)-Stuttgart. the ICE takes as long as the IC (between 2:14 and 2:18), but the ICE is almost 20% more expensive
21:16:01 <CelestarT42p> 43 EUR for the IC, 50 EUR for the ICE.
21:16:14 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: it wants to redirect me to Montabaur instead...
21:16:27 <CelestarT42p> That's braindead that is
21:17:12 <CelestarT42p> Eddi|zuHause: what is interesting: the ICE is not faster than the IC, but has fewer stops. How do they manage that?
21:18:06 * CelestarT42p still doesn't understand the *point* of ICE
21:18:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i only ever went by ICE when it was free... (paid by the army)
21:19:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and then only rarely, because the only direct connection was an RE
21:23:35 *** welshdragon is now known as welshdra-GONE
21:24:20 <CelestarT42p> Rubidium: why would an ICE wait longer than an IC
21:24:50 <Rubidium> because of connecting services?
21:25:49 <CelestarT42p> DB simply sucks :P
21:26:56 <ln> we have this "bullet train" here, aka Pendolino, which on many routes operates at 120 km/h.
21:26:56 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Cottbus%20Transport,%2023.%20Mai%201925.png <- i need a bridge here :(
21:27:28 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
21:27:39 *** Roujin_ is now known as Roujin
21:27:40 <Lakie> Funnily enough, Bridges don't do diagonials yet
21:27:41 <ln> rarely over 200 km/h, 220 being the maximum.
21:28:11 <ln> still the Pendolino tickets are more expensive and Pendolinos are more unreliable than other trains.
21:28:37 <Eddi|zuHause> engl... oh, right...
21:29:12 <ln> that was to indicate the origins of Pendolino
21:30:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Lakie: the problem is, that TGP generates too realistic landscapes, that practically cry for diagonal bridges and tunnels...
21:30:57 <Lakie> I've heard arguements for them before.
21:31:50 <Lakie> Mainly with the patch though, in which cause it comes down to too much work for too little gain, not idea what the OpenTTD dev's stances are though
21:31:52 <Eddi|zuHause> there are practically no situations where you can reasonably place straight bridges/tunnels
21:32:55 <Eddi|zuHause> OTTD goes the mathmatics way... "we do that fully flexible, so diagonal will only be a tiny special case" ;)
21:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause> of course that is such a huge task so nobody attempts to tackle it :p
21:34:16 <CelestarT42p> DB paid 3.6 billion EUR for 70km worth of 300km/h track between Ingolstadt and Nuremburg
21:34:27 <Prof_Frink> What we need is an eis_os of openttd
21:34:42 <Prof_Frink> Impossible? I had that for breakfast,
21:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: that'll probably raise copyright concerns :p
21:34:59 <CelestarT42p> that's 51000 EUR per meter of track
21:35:12 <CelestarT42p> Prof_Frink: why do we need an eis_os?
21:35:25 <Prof_Frink> CelestarT42p: Well, he does like to do the impossible
21:35:36 <Eddi|zuHause> we have a peter "oh-i-have-a-patch-for-that" 1138
21:36:17 <CelestarT42p> Prof_Frink: diagonal bridges are not impossible
21:36:22 <CelestarT42p> not sure they're even hard
21:36:34 <Prof_Frink> CelestarT42p: That sounds like volunteering to me.
21:36:38 <Eddi|zuHause> last time you said "diagonal bridges are a bitch" :p
21:36:55 <Eddi|zuHause> that was like a year ago, with the bridge branch ;)
21:37:16 <Eddi|zuHause> or was that two years?
21:37:27 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i think that was before cbh
21:37:28 <CelestarT42p> cbh hit some other problems
21:37:43 <CelestarT42p> methinks we should have a bridge pool :P
21:37:48 <Eddi|zuHause> when you did flexible things under bridges, and crossing bridges
21:38:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas was working on something like a bridge pool, i think
21:39:12 <Roujin> heh alright, here comes peter "oh-i-have-a-patch-for-that" 1138 :D
21:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm getting 404 on that last one
21:39:31 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: spaces in URL
21:39:47 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i copypasted it with the spaces
21:39:48 <glx> Roujin: in that case he doesn't have the patch ;)
21:39:48 <ln> peter1138: URLs can't have spaces
21:39:57 <Prof_Frink> ln: They work fine here
21:40:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Roujin: that was smatz's patch
21:40:06 <peter1138> Try telling Firefox that...
21:40:16 <glx> here too, I just needed to copy/paste the url
21:40:59 <Eddi|zuHause> that works... weird
21:44:03 <peter1138> Part of my rail type spec will include provisions for sprites for future features, anyway...
21:44:03 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the "cargo tram" of the german RV set is too camouflage coloured... you barely see it, especially when it's empty
21:45:32 <ln> peter1138: 2.3. Unreserved Characters
21:45:32 <ln> Characters that are allowed in a URI but do not have a reserved
21:45:32 <ln> purpose are called unreserved. These include uppercase and lowercase
21:45:32 <ln> letters, decimal digits, hyphen, period, underscore, and tilde.
21:45:34 <ln> unreserved = ALPHA / DIGIT / "-" / "." / "_" / "~"
21:46:06 <peter1138> ln, tell that to the Firefox developers, not me.
21:46:14 <xyz> why am i unable to change the competitor start time in map editor?
21:46:28 <Prof_Frink> And indeed konqui devs
21:46:50 <ln> peter1138: I'm telling you your spaceish URL is not a valid one.
21:47:03 <Prof_Frink> ln: And we're telling you it works.
21:47:03 <peter1138> I'm telling you I don't care.
21:47:23 <peter1138> I copied it from the URL 'bar' in Firefox.
21:47:31 <Lakie> Most internet clients merely convert them to %20 though
21:47:49 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but not when copying...
21:48:00 <TinoDidriksen> Strictly, whitespace is not in the allowed plain characters for a URI.
21:48:03 <Lakie> I've done it many times, ln.
21:48:10 <Lakie> Both with firefox, opera, ie etc
21:48:22 <ln> Lakie: what the hell does that have to do with what is allowed?
21:48:50 <Lakie> Obviously it is allowed otherwise it should be filtered?
21:49:03 <Lakie> Or give a nice message saying isn't valid?
21:49:33 *** Celestar_ has joined #openttd
21:49:38 *** Celestar_ is now known as CelestarT42p
21:49:58 <CelestarT42p> I think "repeater operation" in my WLAN AP means that you need to reconnect repeatedly
21:50:01 <TinoDidriksen> How browsers act and what the RFC says is not always the same.
21:50:28 <Prof_Frink> TinoDidriksen: Hey, they conform to the RFC when talking to the server
21:51:02 <Prof_Frink> AFAIK there's no RFC on what the browser should tell the human it's up to.
21:51:38 <TinoDidriksen> No, but it'd make most sense if the copy operation would place a valid URI in the buffer.
21:52:16 <Prof_Frink> No, just a valid input.
21:52:55 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: the section you quoted does not say that spaces are forbidden
21:53:28 * CelestarT42p wonders what the most powerful train engine is (permanent output)
21:53:38 <TinoDidriksen> Spaces are not in the allowed list, hence they have to be encoded.
21:54:41 <CelestarT42p> konqueror does as well
21:54:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but that was not an "allowed" list... only a "you can expect that these work unconditionally" list
21:55:30 <glx> firefox just use a human readable url
21:56:05 <Prof_Frink> *Bing bong* The train now leaving platform 3 is the topic.
21:56:14 <Prof_Frink> Aren't we supposed to be on that?
21:56:28 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the topic says offline...
21:57:12 <ln> and dear people, please do remember the difference: even if browsers accept URLs with spaces either typed in or pasted, that does not mean such URLs are valid and should be used.
21:57:50 <glx> the browser converts it to a valid one internally
21:58:30 <ln> modern browsers also allow non-ASCII letters in the URL, yet that doesn't mean such URLs are valid without the percent-notation.
21:58:45 <Prof_Frink> We never said they were valid URLs.
21:58:52 <Prof_Frink> Merely valid browser inputs.
21:59:44 <ln> no, you didn't, but pasting such to IRC is silly, because space is the default delimiter for an URL, as far as clicking an URL is concerned.
22:00:13 <glx> that's right, I needed to copy paste instead click
22:01:11 <ln> situation would be different if URLs were always enclosed within <> or some other delimiter on IRC, then those could be used for detecting the end instead of spaces.
22:01:58 <ln> though then some bonehead would use URLs with < > in them, because they are valid input for browsers. :)
22:02:03 <glx> we should use [url][/url] as delimiter ;)
22:02:30 *** Celestar142p has joined #openttd
22:03:57 <Brianetta> orudge: Those videos are being uploaded direct from my Creative Zen.
22:04:44 <orudge> it's got to about 40MB on 2746
22:04:50 <Brianetta> oh, there's the next one
22:04:59 <Eddi|zuHause> "an URL" <- i, as a non-native speaker, would view that as correct, because i wouldn't pronounce "U" as "JU" here
22:05:14 <orudge> I'd pronounce that as "a you arr ell"
22:05:25 <Brianetta> Cool, making the directory group sticky is making them readable
22:05:41 <orudge> or Earls Sigurd and Thorfinn, of Orkney
22:05:41 <Prof_Frink> Meh, I'd rather have Yorksher.
22:05:45 <orudge> of which a good many things are named
22:05:53 <orudge> such as the ferries, MV Earl Sigurd and MV Earl Thorfinn.
22:06:01 <orudge> or the school sports teams in Sanday, Sigurd and Thorfinn.
22:06:06 <orudge> my brother and I were in Thorfinn
22:06:45 <ln> 00:59 < ln> -n <-- correction for my use of "an URL"
22:06:50 *** NukeBuster has joined #openttd
22:07:07 <orudge> my download is currently quite slow due to my upload being saturated with my own photos
22:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: i did see that ;)
22:07:19 <Brianetta> hmm, it says it's stopped sending, but the file on the web server's still catching up
22:09:03 <orudge> hmm, well, that's me with about 50MB, and you say the total is 500MB? 10% there, then...
22:09:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i have that when stuff is still in the send buffer...
22:09:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it says 100% uploaded, but the upload is not really finished
22:10:37 <Eddi|zuHause> man... i hate it... each time a train arrives at the station, the trams start sprinkling red numbers across the town...
22:11:53 <ln> would you prefer them to be pink?
22:14:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd settle for green ;)
22:17:56 <Roujin> quote BLACK OPS (they do sneaky things)BALLISTIC MISSILES, INTERCONTINENTAL BALLISTIC MISSILES, SUBMARINES \quote
22:18:10 <Roujin> note that he's talking about OpenTTD
22:18:47 <Roujin> and I'm very very afraid from his last sentence: "Whoa that was a lot! I have a lot more for this idea coming in you next post!"
22:19:58 <ln> i wouldn't mind seeing military bases that accept and produce passengers and cargo.
22:20:18 <ln> but i certainly don't want INTERCONTINENTAL BALLISTIC MISSILES, SUBMARINES :)
22:22:48 <Roujin> and don't forget you won't transport passengers, but need different wagons for light infantry, medium infantry, heavy infantry, bazooka infantry, black ops (they do sneaky things!) and paratroopers (they only go in your planes and sometimes decide to jump off halfway to the destination)
22:25:04 <Roujin> no, seriously. I mean.. what is this guy thinking?
22:25:28 <Roujin> is he thinking at all?
22:25:32 <Zuu> he maybe misses CS or something :p
22:25:34 <ln> world domination, apparently
22:26:33 *** CelestarT42p has joined #openttd
22:26:55 <CelestarT42p> Two of my neighbours apparently got new WLAN APs.
22:27:08 <CelestarT42p> they also have NFI about what they're doing
22:27:27 <CelestarT42p> because both of them chose the same channel for their AP as I have
22:27:38 <Zuu> NFI stands for? no fucking idea?
22:28:08 <CelestarT42p> having 3 networks on the same channel is apparently not healthy for the connectivity
22:28:17 <Rubidium> Zuu: you should've said: "I've got no fucking idea where NFI stands for"
22:29:00 <Brianetta> Celestar: Few people know about channels.
22:29:36 <CelestarT42p> Brianetta: Few poeple know about <insert random technology>
22:30:12 <Brianetta> Oh, lots of people know about cars
22:30:26 <Brianetta> Lots of people know way more than me about scart leads
22:30:40 <Brianetta> It's just that nobody knows anything about anything interesting
22:31:24 <Zuu> Few people who went to my university program "Communiactions- and transport systems" realized that they had to study data-communications even through it was stated in the program descriptions...
22:31:39 *** dragonhorseboy has joined #openttd
22:31:52 <Zuu> ... and is half of the program name..
22:31:58 <Vikthor> Brianetta: ehm, that heavily depends on what you find interesting
22:32:33 <Brianetta> Vikthor: No; I hold the only opinion that matters to me on this topic.
22:33:01 <Brianetta> If the topic was paint colours, my wife holds the opinions.
22:33:26 <Brianetta> I took a CD's worth of video on the meet.
22:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and i don't find the place where the cargo payment calculation differentiates about whether the destination is reached or not...
22:34:10 * CelestarT42p loves the fact that most WLAN APs/Routers that support 300MBPs on air still have 100BaseT ports :S
22:34:41 <SpComb> do the ones with gbit switches have a gbit link between the switch and the cpu?
22:34:45 <orudge> heh, I was thinking about that the other day, Celestar
22:34:52 <orudge> whether 802.11n kit would actually have gigabit Ethernet
22:34:58 <CelestarT42p> orudge: most don't
22:35:02 <SpComb> and is the cpu capable of shifting 300mbps of full-duplex traffic between the wlan and the switch?
22:35:18 <Brianetta> SpComb: The bus probably isn't
22:35:42 <CelestarT42p> orudge: I wonder what they expect the AP to *do* with the 300MBit it is getting
22:35:43 * dragonhorseboy is still trying to figure out a damned router for my new place (like you'll thought there was "anything you need you can find it", go figure)
22:36:08 <Brianetta> Not many workstations could saturate a 100baseT network.
22:36:18 <Brianetta> That's what still sets mainframes apart.
22:36:41 <SpComb> a workstation can saturate a gbit link just fine
22:36:43 <CelestarT42p> Brianetta: well. At work I can saturate a 1000BaseT
22:36:47 <SpComb> normal x86 hardware can do a 10gbit link
22:36:48 <Eddi|zuHause> CelestarT42p: it's not much different than having Gbit ethernet cards on the PCI bus...
22:37:01 <Eddi|zuHause> where the PCI bus is slower than the network...
22:37:11 <CelestarT42p> Eddi|zuHause: not *quite*, as the PCI bus has 1.08Gbits (gross)
22:37:11 <SpComb> indeed, that's a bit of a silly thing
22:37:19 <SpComb> esp. motherboards with dual gbit NICs... on PCI
22:37:39 <CelestarT42p> and there are faster PCIs
22:37:49 *** Anon0100 has joined #openttd
22:38:00 <CelestarT42p> then again, I've seen people having RAID10 arrays on PCI-controller cards *cough*
22:38:12 <CelestarT42p> "I need faster disks, it's still slow"
22:38:19 <Brianetta> Some people son't want RAID's speed
22:38:31 <Brianetta> They just want bombproof storage
22:38:40 <CelestarT42p> Brianetta: then you don't do RAID10
22:38:49 *** Anon2567 has joined #openttd
22:40:19 <Anon2567> hey post your opinion about my sugestionrion "war"
22:40:52 <Eddi|zuHause> we are far beyond that topic already...
22:41:40 <SpComb> Brianetta: RAID10 = RAID1 of two RAID0 arrays
22:42:01 <SpComb> so both redundancy and performance for twice the price
22:43:03 <ln> how many tiles away can artillery fire?
22:43:04 <SpComb> but myes, better than running a multi-disk software RAID over a PCI bus
22:43:23 <CelestarT42p> SpComb: softward RAID is better than its reputation imho
22:43:23 <SpComb> ln: how far is the competitor's station?
22:43:56 <SpComb> CelestarT42p: indeed, and I love it
22:44:21 <CelestarT42p> SpComb: you know ZFS?
22:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a RAID0/1 controller onboard, but i don't use it as such...
22:44:35 <SpComb> but if you have a RAID1 then you still need to shift twice the amount of data from the CPU to the disks than with hardware raid
22:44:37 <ln> Eddi|zuHause: not a real one, is it?
22:44:53 <SpComb> CelestarT42p: in theory, but I just use ext3+lvm+md
22:45:02 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: what do you mean with "real"?
22:45:11 <ln> Eddi|zuHause: does it require drivers?
22:45:37 <CelestarT42p> SpComb: I've tested it, it's awesome (especially on an Sun Fire X4500 :))
22:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause> linux does load a "promise" module...
22:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> if that qualifies as a "driver"...
22:46:16 <ln> as far as i understand, a real RAID controller does not require any driver to do its job.
22:46:28 <Tekky> does OpenTTD store a vehicle's speed in mph or km/h internally?
22:46:57 <CelestarT42p> ln: a reail RAID controller does not require any driver for accessing the disk. It still requires drivers for accessing the array (building/repairing/monitoring)
22:47:08 <CelestarT42p> Tekky: fathoms per fortnight or something :P
22:47:22 <Rubidium> wasn't it furlong per fortnight?
22:47:30 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: after the boot/post screen, there is the raid screen, where i can enter the raid controller's setup
22:48:29 <Eddi|zuHause> there i can add drives connected to the SATA (or the 3rd PATA) connectors, as single, raid0 or raid1 array
22:48:40 <Eddi|zuHause> then comes the boot manager
22:48:50 <CelestarT42p> Brianetta: I'm just reading through your desync report. the game did WHAT with the orders?
22:49:46 <Brianetta> Celestar: Any orders pertaining to the waypoints vanished.
22:50:03 <CelestarT42p> Rubidium: what do you make of that? buffer overflow somewhere?
22:50:07 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: so does that qualify as a "real" controller?
22:50:16 <CelestarT42p> Brianetta: pertaining to any waypoint or only a specific one?
22:51:21 <Brianetta> The one that caused the desync
22:51:32 <Brianetta> Which desync report are you reading?
22:51:35 <ln> Eddi|zuHause: well, hmm, it depends on whether it requires the promise module or not. i've understood the integrated ones virtually always need help from the OS, but i'd be glad to be wrong.
22:51:40 <CelestarT42p> the one in the Ottddev forum
22:51:52 <Brianetta> Oh, that one didn't do anything to orders
22:52:13 <Brianetta> I'd better read what I posted
22:52:47 <Rubidium> CelestarT42p: IF I knew what it was it would've been solved
22:52:53 <Brianetta> Ah, yeah; that third post is about a different desync problem
22:53:07 <Brianetta> There are two that we know of
22:53:07 <Tekky> hehe, I just found an error in the OpenTTD wiki :-) Luckily, I can still browse the OpenTTD wiki in the Google cache :)
22:53:12 <Rubidium> but I fear it's some newgrf cache issue somewhere
22:54:00 <Rubidium> and I got no clue how to hunt for buffer overflows beyond what valgrind/efence/duma can detect
22:54:20 <Tekky> unfortunately, I cannot correct the error in the OpenTTD wiki through the Google cache :(
22:54:42 <CelestarT42p> Rubidium: valgrind is good, but on our local games we can only test so much. I wonder whether Brianetta should run his servers in efence ;)
22:54:58 <CelestarT42p> Rubidium: there's a difference between us testing something and a "production" server
22:55:18 <ln> Eddi|zuHause: also it's been said that if a driver is required, then (on Linux) one can equally well use Linux software RAID, because software is required anyhow. but dunno, i don't have much RAID experience on non-software RAIDs.
22:55:29 <Brianetta> Celestar: I'm working on a reproducible desync.
22:55:41 <CelestarT42p> ln: I have, but only with *real* controllers
22:55:47 <Brianetta> It can be done, I'm certain.
22:55:52 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: like i said, i don't use it as RAID
22:56:04 <Rubidium> CelestarT42p: I've never seen a real buffer overflow as cause of a desync
22:56:08 <CelestarT42p> (i.e. PCIe or PCI-X stuff)
22:56:17 <Rubidium> it's always way more subtle/hidden
22:56:20 <CelestarT42p> Rubidium: maybe this is first? ;-)
22:56:35 <CelestarT42p> Rubidium: but what would cause a renaming of a waypoint?
22:56:48 <CelestarT42p> Rubidium: and the removal of said waypoint from the order list
22:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause> RAID0 is silly and for RAID1 i rather need the space
22:57:03 *** lobstar_MB is now known as lobster_MB
22:57:18 <rortom> that broke my auto update script :\
22:57:35 <Rubidium> CelestarT42p: best explanation is that a waypoint got build, but failed to do so on (some) clients
22:57:37 <Brianetta> rortom: Mine worked
22:57:58 <Rubidium> which might, again, be due to some newgrf issue
22:58:16 <CelestarT42p> newgrfs==canoworms
22:58:49 <Eddi|zuHause> we should abolish newgrf support :p
22:58:52 <rortom> @ sacro: try to put "nightly.openttd.org" into that thing you gave me ...
22:59:11 <Sacro> rortom: yes, it doesn't reckon there's a site there
22:59:40 <Rubidium> nightly.openttd.org isn't down
22:59:48 <Rubidium> it's just that apache running on that server is down
23:00:16 <CelestarT42p> ok I'm heading to bed
23:00:33 <rortom> mh openttd.org is up, wiki down and nightly as well
23:00:55 <orudge> wiki, etc, are hosted in Hungary
23:01:13 <orudge> our shiny new server has been ordered, though :)
23:01:26 <Eddi|zuHause> "a hungry ate our server"
23:01:40 * orudge imagines a grue eating the server
23:01:47 <Rubidium> if only librarians would be working on sundays
23:02:12 *** Roujin_ has joined #openttd
23:02:19 <Eddi|zuHause> they probably used it for playing quake or something :p
23:02:46 <Rubidium> but the library the server belongs to is closed
23:02:56 <SpComb> or it's hosted on an Xbox and the boss took it home to his kids
23:03:39 <Rubidium> but then the whole server would be down, not only apache
23:03:51 <Rubidium> as the nightly compile went just fine
23:04:00 <Rubidium> just nobody can access the binaries it made
23:06:20 <Rubidium> yes, nightlies are initiated over ssh
23:07:54 *** Roujin_ is now known as Roujin
23:12:52 <SpComb> as in, log in over ssh and fix apache
23:13:10 <Rubidium> if I would have access it would've been done ages ago
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continue to next day ⏵
