IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-08-16
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00:11:01 <dragonhorseboy> been trying find it for a while but with no clue .. anyone maybe know the name of a particular locomotive (I think french, spanish, or close to either?) .. it was like electrified center cab on long B-B chassis ... light blue paintjob too .. had sloped hoods and sides (a bit like the GG1 but much lower height)
00:11:29 <dragonhorseboy> I know some kind of AC model of this was released for marklin tracks quite some time ago
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00:31:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that description is way too general to find any sensible matches...
00:32:33 <dragonhorseboy> hrm..was afraid of that..thanks anyhow eddi
00:32:43 <dragonhorseboy> kinda like centercab's myself..not as large numbered but still
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00:33:45 <dragonhorseboy> guess maybe I'll just try find any copies of the marklin catalogue and see if its there first or not
00:37:30 <dragonhorseboy> eddi I do have an easier question for you tho...
00:39:36 <dragonhorseboy> you think its plausible (even if only in a kitbashed/scratchbuilt model alone) to have a centercab locomotive that would house diesel motor in one hood and the electrionics in other hood (with fuel+air located between trucks) as a vestibule locomotive for short trains in an electrified&non mixed network?
00:40:10 <dragonhorseboy> (like say not enough reason to electrify all of it but can't run diesel all the way otherwise)
00:40:27 <dragonhorseboy> if you dunno no problem heh
00:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i have heard of a big lot of obscurities, but never ever have heard of a line being operated with a combined diesel/electric engine...
01:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i have seen diesel driven construction vehicles with a pantograph, but they don't seem to use that for driving, only for testing the catenary
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01:20:56 <dragonhorseboy> sorry just a bit tired .. eddi .. yeah I guess real life might never have something like it but who is going say a model layout couldn't? (these old AW NUTS magazine ideas are crazy if you ask me)
01:23:15 <dragonhorseboy> think I'm better going off to bed - bye till next time (maybe with more normal questions heh)
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06:16:54 <peter1138> Did the desync hunt get anywhere?
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07:05:33 <Rubidium> I didn't even start it
07:07:43 <Rubidium> hmm... to replicate wait 10 minutes?
07:14:05 <peter1138> I'm suspicious of a few things that use the result of RoadVehFindCloseTo()
07:15:18 <peter1138> But... probably unfounded.
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07:31:23 <Rubidium> the first one to desync (in the last run) was a train
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07:39:43 <Rubidium> for a few seconds yes ;)
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07:51:49 <Wolf01> mmmh ruined a game, an assert on IsTileType(t, MP_INDUSTRY) and tile < MapSize() :(
07:57:01 <Rubidium> been changing newgrfs?
07:58:04 <Wolf01> the last thing I made was to build an industry some years before the crash
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08:17:42 <Wolf01> uh, saved the game... the old AI was trying to do something weird, so I enabled tne new AI
08:18:03 <Rubidium> peter1138: never mind, I was fracking up with hunting the desync :(
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08:22:11 <Rubidium> Brianetta: isn't there really a savegame with less time between start and desync?
08:23:26 <Rubidium> because 10 minutes is *way* too long when I want to be actually able to hunt it
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08:42:43 <Wolf01> Rubidium, do you need a savegame to check what the AI was trying to do?
08:44:33 <Rubidium> Wolf01: what version were you using?
08:44:56 <Rubidium> make a bugreport with the savegame
08:45:01 <Wolf01> or at least, yesterday's nightly
08:45:35 <Rubidium> Brianetta: I can't fix the desync issue as I could only reproduce it with 4 GB of logs, which made diff blow
08:46:07 <Rubidium> and I'm not going to run openttd for 30 minutes *per* run to trace a desync, especially when I need to do it very often
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09:15:39 <Tekky> Hi, I have a question about multiplayer desyncs: If a new client joins a multiplayer game, do all clients reload the savegame? Or only the connecting client?
09:18:24 <Alberth> Tekky: I'd expect the new client to download the map currently being played
09:22:13 <Tekky> I am asking this question because one my station rating patch keeps track of the total cargo delivered to a station for the current and previous month. The station rating is dependent on this value, because a station which has large amounts of cargo delivered to it will not get a station rating penalty so quickly for having a large stockpile. I'm afraid this causes multiplayer desyncs,...
09:22:15 <Tekky> ...because this new information about station production is only stored in memory and not in the savegame, because I didn't want to change the savegame format in order to preserve savegame compatibility.
09:25:15 <Tekky> if a new client joins the game, the client will load the savegame and all station's last month's production will be initialized to 0 for the new client that joined (because this value is not stored in the savegame), while the values of the clients that were already in the game will be nonzero.
09:26:05 <Noldo> you need to store it in the savegame sooner or later anyway
09:28:08 <Tekky> Yes, I'm afraid that this will cause desyncs. But I currently prefer single-player savegame compatibility with trunk than multiplayer compatiblity. If I store additional information in the savegame, this will break all savegame compatibility.
09:29:28 <Wolf01> there's no different workaround, also I needed to store the variable on savegame when I made the daylength patch
09:29:47 <Wolf01> and in single player worked like a charm
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09:57:32 <Brianetta> Rubidium: It's your software. I only report the bugs I find.
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10:26:18 <Alberth> Brianetta: He is not denying that, he just likes to get some help from you. To debug a problem, one needs to have a *quick* way of reproducing the problem. You can help by loading the save game, and let it run, saving lots of times until the crash. Then reload the last saved game to check that it crashes. With that save, he can start looking for the cause.
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10:40:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: it's a little more problematic with desyncs, because at the moment the desync is detected, the original cause of the desync is long gone
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10:49:04 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: Agreed, getting a quick way to reproduce the problem can be tricky. I go as far as not even reporting a problem until I have a quick way to reproduce it. For example, my autorail tool gets confused about the CTL key every now and then. Unfortunately, until now I don't know what to do to make it happen except by playing for a few hours. Useless for debugging.
10:57:58 <Eddi|zuHause> desync errors have a long chain of events that need to be repeated for any test, like A <-> B <-> C <-> D <-> E. where A is start server, B is the action that whose result not properly saved, C is the client join, D is the unsaved data causing a different code path taken, and E is the desync being detected by a random decision differing between server and client
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10:59:05 <Eddi|zuHause> from what i understand, the "C <-> D <-> E" of brianettas example is rather short, but the "A <-> B <-> C" chain is very long
10:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> because it is very unknown, what B actually is and when it happens
11:06:22 <Alberth> We should have an automatic issue reduction system :) Let the computer repeatedly play the game until the crash each time eliminating a possible cause, until no cause can be removed any more.
11:07:48 <Ammller> isn't the debugger for?
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11:09:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i really don't think you get the problem, Alberth...
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11:13:10 <Alberth> I think I do, you need to chop the A-C part as many times as you can, then do a binary search on all those save points to decide which one is the last before B. Trouble is that the decision function means doing <load> -> B? -> C -> D -> E (where lack of E may be difficult to detect).
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11:37:23 <Wolf01> nooo not againnnnnnn what's wrong with unlimited raw materials? why all industry sets now use limited resouces?
11:38:21 <Ammller> Wolf01: new industry set?
11:39:19 <Ammller> "not again" implies you played a new set :-)
11:39:26 <Wolf01> and found this wonderful feature also on pbi
11:39:53 <Ammller> but you can build pbi industries together...
11:40:37 <Wolf01> no, I want to disable that stupid feature directly
11:40:38 <Ammller> pbi has no switches to disable that, afaik
11:41:39 <Wolf01> we need a patch to diable all behaviors of a grf like restrictions and limitations of resources and stockpiles
11:42:19 <Wolf01> is not possible to play always with original industries because one wants to play a sandbox game
11:43:38 <Ammller> Wolf01: it should be possible to overwrite it with a grf...
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11:59:20 <AmixE90> I find the morphos version of OpenTTD the most stable openttd version of them all. Macosx version is ok, but suddendly it gets gfx errors or map just moves in one direction. Windows version got problems with finding grfs.
12:00:00 <dih> AmixE90, may i be very straight forward with you?
12:00:26 <dih> i use mac os x (ppc), linux (debian), and windows (xp)
12:00:32 <dih> i have not found any issues with either
12:01:09 <AmixE90> I am a great betatester
12:01:21 <dih> and 'not finding grf' sounds to me like 'user not knowing where to put them' :-P
12:02:18 <AmixE90> It finds it.. Applies.. But still its not recognized. Sometimes a restart helps though
12:02:47 <dih> sorry - i have not every come across that behaviour
12:02:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not "beta testing"
12:03:07 <Eddi|zuHause> you need a reproduceable behaviour
12:05:57 <dih> and 'restartint the os' does not sound like an openttd issue :-P
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13:11:11 <planetmas> I found just an interesting fact, probably not intended this way:
13:12:07 <planetmas> When ctrl-drag an exit signal, the exit signal changes back to a normal one
13:12:22 <planetmas> and why do I have this broken nick?
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13:14:32 <frosch123> bugs.openttd.org is your friend
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13:45:17 <Ammler> planetmaker: that is not bug
13:46:12 <Ammler> if you ctrl-drag a presignal, it should change to normal type
13:46:17 <Yorick> Ammler: and the console is a gui?
13:46:30 <Ammler> you need i.e. only a entry signal before the exit :-)
13:52:56 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r14082 /trunk/src/train.h: -Codechange: Make 'GetNextUnit()' more fool-proof wrt. real dualheads.
13:57:40 <planetmaker> Ammler: the new signals should be normal ones. But not the one I dragged.
14:02:44 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r14083 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#1264, FS#2037, FS#2038, FS#2110]: Rewrite the autoreplace kernel.
14:03:03 * Yorick gives frosch123 a cookie
14:05:16 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r14084 /trunk/src/lang/ (38 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Language updates for r14083.
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14:15:45 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r14085 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Cleanup (r14083): Remove no longer used functions.
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14:19:18 * frosch123 takes the cookie and enjoys the sun awaiting a new flood of bug reports
14:20:08 * Yorick gives frosch123 another cookie
14:20:32 * frosch123 gets some real cookies
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14:33:07 <Kloopy_> frosch: Are desyncs based on autoreplace fixed, then?
14:33:12 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
14:34:12 <frosch123> the next days will show
14:34:55 <Yorick> but there was some other assert with articulated vehicles and breakdowns
14:39:36 <Kloopy_> Can someone recommend a tram grf please?
14:40:15 <Kloopy_> So that's two votes for generic and modern :P
14:40:28 <Chrill> modern are all available at start, I think
14:40:34 <Chrill> Generic is boring though
14:40:42 <Chrill> it's like.. regulat TT stuff gone trammy
14:40:50 <Chrill> but they lack.. spirit xD
14:40:53 <Yorick> that is the idea of them
14:41:06 <Yorick> regular TTD stuff gone trammy
14:41:15 <Chrill> They are still boring ;)
14:41:26 <Yorick> heroshima trams is nicely articulated
14:42:06 <Eddi|zuHause> <Chrill> German trams <- it's the german road vehicle grf, not the german tram grf
14:42:15 <Kloopy_> Do you need a tram track grf aswell as a tram train grf?
14:42:43 <Eddi|zuHause> there are tram tracks included, but they look ugly
14:42:54 <Eddi|zuHause> so i would recommend to override them
14:43:17 <Yorick> the grass tram tracks look nice
14:43:38 <Eddi|zuHause> "new tram tracks" or "lightrail/tram tracks" are nice
14:43:48 <Yorick> lightrail is quite boring
14:44:44 <Eddi|zuHause> standard tram tracks are way too narrow
14:47:03 <Mark> anyone knows what the amount of inflation is?
14:47:17 <Mark> or is it not that simple?
14:47:44 <Eddi|zuHause> it's in the difficulty settings afaik
14:47:51 <Mark> thats interest rate i think
14:48:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and that defines also the inflation
14:49:14 <Eddi|zuHause> it might be slightly different than that, but it's based on that value
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15:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i did something wrong...
15:19:47 <Eddi|zuHause> src/settings_gui.cpp:781: PatchesSelectionWindow::PatchesSelectionWindow(const WindowDesc*): Assertion `sd != __null' failed.
15:21:44 <Eddi|zuHause> why is this still called "Patches" anyway?
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15:22:40 <Yorick> Eddi: you added a name to the gui list that isn't a known patch, I think
15:25:06 <Eddi|zuHause> probably, but i don't find the error
15:26:52 <Yorick> I last got that assert with a typo in settings_gui
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15:52:27 <ln> oh, it is indeed Leonard Nimoy in Civ IV.
15:52:53 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, i found it... missing comma, so it concatenated two strings...
15:53:27 <djpety> are they the programing team :)
15:53:52 <Eddi|zuHause> THEY are the ones with the conspiracy
15:54:09 <djpety> sorry for my english :)
15:54:33 <Eddi|zuHause> THEY want you to believe that a town named "Bielefeld" exists...
15:55:29 <djpety> are they any hungarian person?
15:55:30 <Yorick> Eddi: THEY also want you to believe that a town namd "Schweinfurt" exists
15:55:59 <Eddi|zuHause> djpety: there used to be
15:56:20 <djpety> are there any hungarian person here?
15:56:55 <djpety> beacause i'm from hungary :)
15:57:19 <Yorick> this channel is english only
15:57:21 <djpety> and speak in hungarian easier than english :)
15:57:30 <ln> if you are hungary, you should eat
15:57:51 <djpety> not hungary, hungarian :)
15:58:04 <djpety> hungarian is the nationality :P
15:58:32 <Eddi|zuHause> he knows that very well ;)
16:02:01 <djpety> can you help me with the extra zoom 32bpp project?
16:02:55 <Eddi|zuHause> extra zoom is not officially supported
16:06:49 <djpety> are they planning to make extra zoom offical in the openttd?
16:08:06 <Doorslammer> It still works! Awesome!
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16:41:20 <planetmaker> crash in r14069: openttd: /home/openttd/svn-public/src/pbs.cpp:138: void UnreserveRailTrack(TileIndex, Track): Assertion `(GetTileTrackS
16:41:22 <planetmaker> tatus(tile, TRANSPORT_RAIL, 0) & TrackToTrackBits(t)) != 0' failed.
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16:42:18 <Yorick> seems like a yapp failure
16:42:58 <planetmaker> it's for the dev's information :)
16:43:09 <Yorick> seems like it's trying to unreserve a tile without tracks
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17:11:15 <Yorick> Brianetta: does your desync also happen with nondedicated servers?
17:18:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but how are we going to get the elephant in here?
17:18:29 <guru3> i wish i could be a smart allac sometimes :<
17:19:17 <guru3> anyone up for a game of openttd?
17:23:30 <Yorick> I can't reproduce brianettas desync
17:24:15 <Yorick> he said it'd take about 10 gameyears
17:25:53 <guru3> ok where did the raise/lower land dialog move to Oo
17:26:18 <guru3> i should have rememberd that
17:26:21 <glx> next to other construction buttons
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17:27:07 <Yorick> guru3: could you host a nightly server then?
17:28:06 <guru3> i'd need a few minutes to sort that out
17:28:38 <guru3> what am i being tricked into...?
17:28:40 <Yorick> please use 14085 then :)
17:28:55 <guru3> are you going to play with me?
17:29:08 <Eddi|zuHause> you might want to wait 30 minutes for the next nightly then ;)
17:29:12 <Yorick> as long as I have time, yes
17:29:19 <Yorick> Eddi: 30 minutes is soo long
17:29:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but... autoreplace...
17:29:46 <DorpsGek> Yorick: Invalid arguments for svn.
17:30:07 <guru3> 14078 is the latest nightl
17:30:09 <DorpsGek> Yorick: bug, bugs, changed, commit, download, grf, grfs, info, port, ports, propset, servers, svn, thelog, and youngest
17:30:17 <DorpsGek> Yorick: latest: r14085
17:30:20 <Roujin> try spelling it correctly :P
17:30:42 <Yorick> guru3: r14085 got an autoreplace powerup
17:30:56 <guru3> i hate getting it out of svn manually
17:30:58 <Yorick> and I think it will be a nightly soon
17:32:05 <Brianetta> Yorick: Never tried one.
17:32:26 <Yorick> Brianetta: well, I just disconnected, but not desynced
17:32:44 <guru3> ./configure --dedicated?
17:32:48 <guru3> or is it something obscure
17:32:58 <Yorick> guru3: a normal configure
17:33:41 <guru3> a few other things like putting in a config and opening up the firewall and the grfs
17:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> we need a "walking cargo" feature (some cargo gets transported between close industries without any transport routes)
17:37:38 <guru3> unless there's another r14085 i don't know about
17:38:38 <guru3> and aparently i left it on a huge map Oo
17:39:08 <glx> nice it desynced fast this time
17:39:08 <Eddi|zuHause> standard settings are bad...
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17:39:32 <glx> hmm no it was connection lost indeed
17:39:49 <glx> how can I lost connection on localhost???
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17:40:44 <Yorick> guru3: you cannot even stay in your own game?
17:40:51 <guru3> trying to change the difficulty settings
17:40:59 <guru3> to something more appropriate to players of our caliber
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17:55:56 <guru3> i don't know the yapp at all
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17:59:17 <Eddi|zuHause> yapp is really easy, wherever you formerly placed exit signals, you place no signals at all...
17:59:45 <guru3> i thought the old signaling system was easy :/
18:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause> you place less signals, and you have less signal types
18:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> really, it's easy
18:00:27 <guru3> the ones wth the sign on them
18:00:40 <Eddi|zuHause> they don't allow passing in reverse
18:00:54 <Eddi|zuHause> like the old one way signals
18:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> normal yapp signals can be passed from the other side
18:01:45 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r14086 /trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp: -Fix (r13067): rail/road removing by CTRL didn't sometimes work when a depot window was opened
18:01:45 <guru3> this will take getting used to
18:01:53 <guru3> my gigantic junctions are becoming obsolete
18:02:22 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: FEWER!
18:02:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you should check your fever...
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18:19:01 <Yorick> does the signal gui have ketboard shortcuts>
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18:28:24 <guru3> mixing yapp and regular signals doesn't seem to work very well
18:28:28 <cactus_party> anyone have any troubles installing 0.6.2 from source? mine seems to have compiled fine but 'make install' doesn't move any files anywhere
18:30:05 <Yorick> why would you install?
18:31:55 <Yorick> because there is no reason to install anything?
18:32:39 <cactus_party> there's also no reason to play computer games
18:33:17 <cactus_party> installing is fun
18:33:46 <cactus_party> cause then the game is where it is supposed to be
18:34:23 <Yorick> it is supposed to be in your source/bin directory
18:35:06 <cactus_party> well the ./configure script seems to think it is putting things in /usr/local
18:36:03 <Yorick> your configure script is broken
18:36:20 <Yorick> the game is supposed to be in /svncheckout/bin
18:36:32 <cactus_party> i'm not using svn
18:36:42 <cactus_party> i'm using the stable version or whatever.. 0.6.2
18:37:05 <Yorick> you got a stable source target
18:37:24 <Yorick> svn://svn.openttd.org/tags/0.6.2
18:37:53 <cactus_party> are you telling me that the install function was purposefully removed?
18:38:24 <Yorick> I am telling you that you better use an svn checkout
18:39:09 <Eddi|zuHause> now really... how can i reduce the production of passengers :(
18:39:18 <Yorick> Eddi: get a lower rating
18:39:25 <cactus_party> 0.6.2 will be different from svn than from the main website?
18:39:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Yorick: impossible with a tram every day...
18:39:51 <Yorick> decrease the tram frequency
18:40:10 <Yorick> cactus: how should I know?
18:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Yorick: to a tram every 2 months?
18:40:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that does not really help :p
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18:44:11 <Yorick> Eddi: it dóes decrease passenger production
18:45:02 <Eddi|zuHause> but it hurts other requirements :p
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19:09:24 <Yorick> anyone else up for a game of ottd?
19:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> is there a tile loop counter?
19:18:29 <Brianetta> Can't be the trams, then
19:24:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... fast forward doesn't acutally go any faster :(
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19:25:33 <Brianetta> Vemarkis' waypoints desynced again
19:26:58 <Yorick> those are ony graphics
19:27:51 <Yorick> anyone else up for a game of ottd?
19:37:23 <Brianetta> Yorick: Come and desync on my server.
19:37:54 <Yorick> brianetta: now playing electricpotential
19:55:36 <Rubidium> hmm, the diff of the reduced desync logs I made is still running :(
19:55:53 <Rubidium> that's more than 11 hours...
19:56:56 <Yorick> the time that takes to diff it
19:58:02 <Rubidium> diff, the application, is still running
19:59:04 <Brianetta> Rubidium: It wasn't that big for me, as you can see in the zip
19:59:21 <Brianetta> Also, there's still Vemarkis' waypoints desync
19:59:26 <Brianetta> He managed it again on my server
19:59:40 <Brianetta> Renamed a waypoint, desyned everybody, and names shifted waypoints
19:59:50 <Brianetta> Apparently, all *his* waypoints are still there
20:00:05 <Rubidium> Brianetta: I added more debug info to the log
20:00:19 <Yorick> so everytime someone renames a waypoint, everuthing dsyncs?
20:00:36 <Rubidium> it's all very nice, but without more information and a way to actually reproduce it I'm blind
20:00:50 <Brianetta> Yorick: Every time Vemarkis...
20:00:58 <Brianetta> he has a poison touch with waypoints
20:01:16 *** glx|away has joined #openttd
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20:01:27 <Rubidium> what's special about him that other players don't have?
20:01:35 <Rubidium> like a different architecture
20:01:40 <Brianetta> Rubidium: I do understand the nature of desyncs, and why it's so damned hard to find what caused a state change when your only evidence can be a random call millions of instructions later
20:02:08 *** glx is now known as Guest2038
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20:02:31 <Brianetta> Pretty ordinary, I'd say
20:03:32 <Rubidium> but... load savegame, pause at tick X, join client, unpause, desync is way better than: load savegame, join client and *pray* for desync
20:03:51 <bpZero> is tr/'//d better than s/'//g?
20:04:06 <Rubidium> he actually downloaded it from sourceforge or from the forum?
20:04:09 <Brianetta> Rubidium: If I could save just before a desync, I so would
20:04:09 <bpZero> er sorry, wrong window.
20:04:29 <Brianetta> Wherever openttd.org references
20:04:41 <Yorick> Brianetta: desync-debug=1
20:04:56 <Yorick> 1 will allow you to save
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20:07:14 <Brianetta> davis has had a desync when he renamed a waypoint once
20:07:41 <Brianetta> Always the same result; waypoint renamed, or name shifted elsewhere, and that waypoint removed from all orders
20:08:13 <Brianetta> Missing or extra waypoint, one side or the other
20:08:13 <Rubidium> so some way a waypoint doesn't get build everywhere or doesn't get removed everywhere
20:08:56 <Brianetta> he has a static grf
20:10:27 <frosch123> Combined American Signal Set (US Set)
20:10:33 <Brianetta> Combined American Signal Set (US Set)
20:10:46 <Brianetta> oh, like that will work
20:14:32 <frosch123> uh, oh, grf2html says "invalid grffile" on ussigz.grf
20:15:46 <Rubidium> Brianetta: but renaming the waypoint desyncs everybody, including the renamer?
20:16:03 <Brianetta> but within a minute
20:16:20 <Brianetta> Most of us desynced on the next frame
20:16:26 <Brianetta> davis managed to hang on somehow
20:19:11 <Yorick> I think he was lagging
20:21:30 <Brianetta> Yorick: You can't lag
20:21:50 <Brianetta> If you don't keep up with the heartbeat, you get cut off
20:22:07 <Rubidium> keep up within 4-ish game days
20:22:08 <glx> <frosch123> uh, oh, grf2html says "invalid grffile" on ussigz.grf <-- then grf2html has a bug :)
20:22:18 <Yorick> keep up within 4 game days
20:22:27 <Brianetta> That's about 8 seconds
20:22:56 <Brianetta> although you can change net_frame_freq
20:22:58 <frosch123> glx: there are some unreleased grfcodec alternatives around. but in this case the grfcodeced grf is a lot smaller
20:23:31 <glx> but grfcodec understand it
20:23:49 <frosch123> and grf2html understands the reencoded grf
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20:24:10 <frosch123> the question is whether ottd understands the non-standard grf
20:24:31 <Brianetta> if grfcodec understands it, it's not non-standard
20:24:46 <Brianetta> DaleStan might be many things, but bad at newgrf isn't one of them.
20:25:06 <frosch123> who nows, perhaps it causes some buffer-overrun and destroy half of ottd's internal state
20:25:27 <frosch123> anyway, I have to switch OS to get a proper debugger
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20:55:47 <Eddi|zuHause> somebody ate half the moon
20:56:59 *** dragonhorseboy has joined #openttd
20:57:40 <Roujin> I saw it too some mins ago
20:57:51 <Roujin> not too exciting to watch tho :P
21:00:03 <dragonhorseboy> just wondering as I just came in :p
21:02:54 <Roujin> actually its still the moon, only dark :P
21:04:33 <Bjarni> oh thanks for reminding me :)
21:06:14 <ln> should also be full moon in 10 mins
21:07:50 * Sacro notices the hairs on his back growing
21:08:36 *** CelestarT42p has joined #openttd
21:08:45 * Roujin thinks Sacro is in desperate need of a shave
21:09:38 <Roujin> depends on what "it" is..
21:09:49 <CelestarT42p> Roujin: everything
21:09:54 <CelestarT42p> peter1138: got anything to pull for me?
21:11:02 <CelestarT42p> Roujin: did you test cargodest some more?
21:11:36 <Roujin> everything? well the moon is hidden, the mood is fine, the root is almighty and the food is all mine
21:11:49 <Roujin> .. or something along the lines
21:14:33 *** Celestar142p has joined #openttd
21:14:54 <Celestar142p> Roujin: did you find any anomalies?
21:15:31 <Roujin> nope, found nothing so far..
21:16:16 <Roujin> what about the desync problems the ottdcoop guys encountered? Got an idea what causes it?
21:17:10 <Roujin> as I'm playing single player, I can't possibly notice anything desync related..
21:18:25 <Celestar142p> Roujin: well you can: run your own server.
21:18:39 <Celestar142p> Roujin: I'll have a look at multiplayer tomorrow and next week
21:19:06 * dragonhorseboy need to decide what to do with the damned rusty bmw :/
21:20:18 *** Celestar142p is now known as CelestarT42p
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21:22:12 <CelestarT42p> k Roujin I'll get back to you tomorrow
21:23:21 <Roujin> switching locations.. brb
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21:31:22 *** [1]Roujin is now known as Roujin
21:48:41 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14087 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Fix [FS#2228]: flawed parsing of words (as in 2 bytes) in GRF strings due to sign extension (minime)
21:52:00 <dingo> how do i disable the 'dbg: [net] [udp] queried from ' messages on dedicated server? they're obnoxious!
21:53:26 <Rubidium> try typing debug_level net=0 once the dedicated server started
21:53:58 <dingo> can that go into an openttd.cfg?
21:55:07 <dingo> debug_level net=1 works, too
21:55:14 <dingo> hopefully i'll still see people connect :)
21:55:33 <dingo> also i got a poop-ton of desync errors on a standard game around 1970 with just 8 players on a moderately small map
21:55:50 <dingo> what kind of things can i do to prevent that?
21:57:18 <SmatZ> what version are you running?
21:57:38 <Ammler> SmatZ: do not use GRFs ar excuse everytime :P
21:58:02 <dingo> i already saw the grf thing.. googling for issues ran into the same response in this irc channel log previously
21:58:26 <dingo> i just updated netbsd's pkgsrc package for openttd to 0.6.2, i'm submitting it today
21:58:58 <SmatZ> dingo: is it reproducible?
21:59:11 <dingo> i could load it and see?
21:59:37 <Rubidium> making a desync reproducable is *the* only way to get it fixed
22:00:22 <dingo> im connecting to a stored savegame, server 1984.ws
22:00:25 <dingo> i'll see if it can happen again
22:00:53 <dingo> i was thinking, could running a network time protocol daemon cause a desync by chance?
22:00:58 <SmatZ> dingo: did you change the "Disable electric railways" patch settings? is it enabled or disabled? it should be fixed, but maybe it causes desyncs...
22:01:21 <Rubidium> dingo: no, it doesn't use that timing
22:01:25 <dingo> disable_elrails = false
22:01:51 <dingo> i changed very few settings, i could do a diff of the standard .cfg
22:02:37 <dingo> hmm, no desync's yet, it was very rabid at the time
22:03:04 <dingo> i am running a strange architecture, amd64 as a domU in xen virtualization
22:03:07 <Rubidium> desyncs only happen after the "key" moment of the desync happened on the server
22:04:11 <Brianetta> dingo: Are the desyncs happening even if nobody does anything?
22:04:18 <dingo> is it regular that all clients get booted for a desync?
22:04:28 <Brianetta> For example, you're the only person connected and you're a spectator
22:04:49 <dingo> no, it hasn't happened yet, i've loaded a savegame while it was happening rabidly, after a restart though
22:05:12 <dingo> (trying to get rid of the damn 'query from' messages so i could see the desync errors!)
22:05:33 <Brianetta> dingo: A desync means, and only means, that a client's game world and the server's game world aren't identical. The clients are booted off, so that they'll be fixed when they reconnect and get the game world fresh again.
22:05:43 <dingo> yes i understand, quakeworld-like code
22:06:04 <Brianetta> I don' tknow quakeworld
22:06:11 <Prof_Frink> We should implement openttd-multiverse
22:06:17 <dingo> dbg: [net] 'Croquet 69' reported an error and is closing its connection (desync error)
22:06:19 <dingo> dbg: [net] 'Knuks' reported an error and is closing its connection (desync error)
22:06:22 <Brianetta> I thought those games allowed a certain variation between client and server
22:06:25 <dingo> (repeat 4 other players)
22:06:28 <dingo> then some of htem reconnected
22:06:32 <dingo> and were disconnected again
22:06:38 <Prof_Frink> Where each desync spawns a new universe and continue playing, subtly differently
22:06:43 <dingo> then they stopped reconnecting, but it happened when only I was remaining the third time to me
22:06:54 <Rubidium> sounds like some cache got fracked up
22:07:11 <Brianetta> Rubidium: Does this look like it might be the one I reported?
22:07:18 <Brianetta> That is, not the waypoints one
22:07:20 <dingo> i like the multi-universe idea
22:07:42 <Brianetta> dingo: Multiverse is like taking a save from the server and playing it solo
22:08:03 <dingo> oh not solo, lets just get confused
22:08:26 <Brianetta> Rubidium: If you decide to make some patches to test specific areas of code, let me know and I'll apply and test them locally.
22:08:53 <Rubidium> Brianetta: problem with those patches is that they generate ginourmous amount of output
22:09:09 <Rubidium> like in the range of 1 GB a minute
22:09:25 <Rubidium> which I then need to diff and such
22:09:26 <Brianetta> I have big disks, broadband and I can do any diffs, etc, locally too.
22:10:10 <dingo> well i'll play this map on server 1984.ws, and see if it happens again?
22:10:12 <dingo> i mean, i dont know how i'd submit a bug report... the console doesn't give any hints...
22:10:37 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... can i prevent cargo from aging when it is not in a vehicle?
22:10:38 <Rubidium> dingo: what I basically need to find the desync is a savegame that I can load in the server and a date at which I should join to get the desync triggered
22:11:24 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: not quite
22:11:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, for certain cargos (mail, valuables) it is relevant to go from end to end as fast as possible, but for others (passengers), it is only relevant if the cargo is moving
22:11:53 <Brianetta> Rubidium: I take it you mean as early a date as possible
22:12:51 <Brianetta> I can see several loads, reloads and server-side pauses comingon
22:13:04 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: can't prevent anything that isn't happening
22:13:24 <dragonhorseboy> eddi hmm really good question there .. I mean shouldn't some cargos be able to sit in station for a way long time? (eg steel sitting on platform for a few years till its became all rusty and is only good for on-site scrap :p )
22:13:27 <Eddi|zuHause> and for other cargos (coal, ore) it is actually only relevant that the cargo arrives
22:14:00 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: You just need to modify the cargo payment rates
22:14:28 <Brianetta> Give coal a flatter line on the graph
22:14:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: that solves the last problem, but not the first one
22:15:01 <Brianetta> What, you think passengers shouldn't mind a four-hour wait for a connection?
22:15:19 <Brianetta> They'd say you sucked, and go to your competitor's station
22:15:31 <dragonhorseboy> well I have to agree... even if the station rating drops to <50% coal should *still* be stockpiling *up*
22:15:43 <dragonhorseboy> coal doesn't really decay in a sense
22:15:53 <Prof_Frink> Brianetta: Implement signal cable-stealing pikeys in openttd!
22:15:57 <Brianetta> dragonhorseboy: No; the coal is removed from the station back to the industry for redistribution
22:16:09 <dragonhorseboy> and what if there's no other stations?
22:16:21 <Brianetta> Look at any industry without stations.
22:16:32 <Brianetta> They are producing; the product isn't moving.
22:16:41 <Brianetta> 0 tonnes (0%) transported.
22:16:43 <dragonhorseboy> I guess thats why people can't bother with low-production mines because the stockpiles can't stay long enough for a cheap slow train
22:16:53 <dragonhorseboy> even me too at times
22:17:04 <Brianetta> So whisk it off to a station four tiles away
22:17:29 <Brianetta> This is the use for Pikka's diesel shunter
22:17:36 <Rubidium> that's stupid, just a few expensive trains and the industry'll produce more in a few years
22:17:37 <dragonhorseboy> peter..doesn't work with typical ones unless you want to use 4LV (for the capacity) which then again very few servers even have
22:17:43 *** welshdragon is now known as welshdra-gone
22:17:52 <dragonhorseboy> rubidium never really worked that way on some maps
22:18:02 <peter1138> I never ever want to use LV4 again.
22:18:25 <Rubidium> I never ever wanted to use LV* anyways
22:18:26 <dragonhorseboy> peter...then well duh .. the coal will just have to be able to sit at the station for long time considering the weak capacity of anything else
22:18:29 <peter1138> egrvts is far superior.
22:18:57 <Brianetta> egrvts will go onto my server once the stable release can use it
22:19:09 <peter1138> Surely if the capacity of a road vehicle is not enough... you should use a small train :o
22:19:11 <Brianetta> although teleporting trams does annoy me and other players
22:19:29 <Brianetta> peter1138: Think like Richard Beeching
22:19:46 <Brianetta> Trains are a relic of the Victorian era; we should look to more flexible, modern transport.
22:19:50 <dragonhorseboy> peter...and the problem is for the train to not run at a red loss it has to have several wagons at once which doesn't quite match with a tiny mine? ^_^
22:20:10 <Brianetta> dragonhorseboy: Diesel shunter is your friend
22:20:24 <peter1138> Well, I don't particularly care if individual routes make a loss, as long as overall there is profit.
22:20:29 <Eddi|zuHause> hey... the moon is almost back
22:20:34 <dragonhorseboy> brianetta...what kind of set has a 90+km/h shunter at absurb low price?
22:20:50 <Brianetta> It's not that fast, thoug
22:21:12 <Brianetta> but it's ideal for dragging low output wares to a stockpile station
22:21:21 <dragonhorseboy> well....40km/h is going to take a long time and the station will just have no stockpile (at <20%) by the time the train even returns?
22:21:47 <Sacro> a shunter doesn't usually ever leave a yard/station area
22:21:55 <Sacro> it normally just drags wagons around into rakes
22:21:56 <Brianetta> So, build a second station three tiles from the first, and use a shunter to take away the industry's product
22:21:59 <dragonhorseboy> sacro yeah true on that
22:22:11 <Brianetta> Sacro: Yes; my shunters, used like this, don't stray far either
22:22:12 <dragonhorseboy> brianetta..and then where does the second station go to?
22:22:21 <Sacro> what with there being no loco hauling now there's no need for them to use a yard
22:22:28 <Brianetta> dragonhorseboy: Anywhere you like. The wares will wait for your long distance trains.
22:22:53 <Brianetta> Sacro: You're thinking passengers there. Most freight is loco hauled.
22:22:57 <dragonhorseboy> I'm not so sure..even the "transfered" cargos can lose themself if sitting long enough (they still get rated the same as normal cargos as far as I've noticed)
22:23:09 <Brianetta> There's a shiny 08 at Chilly Road right now
22:23:10 <Sacro> Brianetta: i meant leave the yard
22:23:23 <Sacro> i know they do a lot of yard working
22:23:34 <Sacro> but quite a lot now use crawl signals
22:23:53 <Brianetta> Some do dock work, too
22:24:06 <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: but the shunter will arrive more often, so the rating does not decay much [at least using cargodest]
22:24:09 <Brianetta> which is more or less exactly what I was describing
22:24:10 <Sacro> sounds like a Bjarni kind of job that
22:24:23 <dragonhorseboy> eddi...so adding more to the stockpile somehow makes the rating stays up?
22:24:36 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: Additionally, the cargo is being taken away to an intermediate station, where it won't go away
22:24:42 <Brianetta> even if the ratings fall
22:25:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: i think they do go away...
22:25:14 <dragonhorseboy> eddi...just like I said earlier heh
22:26:12 <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: yes, but they only go away if the rating is <50%
22:26:32 <Eddi|zuHause> you need a rather big pile to go below that
22:26:47 <Brianetta> So use a shunter to take one micro-wagon full of stuff away regularly
22:26:52 <dragonhorseboy> umm I've noticed that even just 28 tonnes of coal still can disappear if sitting long enough
22:26:59 <dragonhorseboy> and thats even for a transfering station
22:27:15 <Brianetta> Your big train can pick up the real load, then pick up whatever the shunter left at the stockpile station (if it has room), then head off
22:27:31 <dragonhorseboy> remind me why I often have so MANY single and some B-train coal trucks on most of my maps
22:28:06 <dragonhorseboy> at least they can be depended on being both cheap and fast altogether .. although I often have to skip the sub-64tonnes mine for the reason of stockpile-keeping problem
22:28:20 <Brianetta> btw, if you want to keep ratings high, replace some rolling stock with new from time to time
22:28:29 <Brianetta> Sell a wagon and replace it
22:28:51 <Brianetta> cheaper than doing a whole train, but still works
22:31:07 <Bjarni> <Sacro> sounds like a Bjarni kind of job that <--- errr... I didn't tell you that I spent all day doing switching operations, did I?
22:31:22 <Sacro> Bjarni: i meant doing favours for sailers
22:31:44 <dragonhorseboy> hm come to think about it..I did once have one coal mine that only saw aircrafts alone the whole time thanks to it being both high output and being located in a really bad position smacked somewhat in the middle of a mountaineous zone :p
22:31:53 <Bjarni> I guess that's what I get for trying to take you serious
22:32:07 <dragonhorseboy> hint: got to love these russian heavy cargo flyers :)
22:32:14 * Sacro updates his openttd patches
22:32:16 <dragonhorseboy> one plane = 450 tonnes of coal :D
22:32:30 <dragonhorseboy> (well the newest one you can get in the set eventually that is)
22:33:30 * Prof_Frink straps some wings to the sides of a ship
22:33:57 * Bjarni imagines that Prof_Frink is quite happy about his new invention: the airship
22:34:57 * Sacro is now playing: Led Zeppelin - Good Times, Bad Times
22:35:05 <dragonhorseboy> well either way to our own but I used to like the mix of dbsetxl+4LV+russiaplanes in temperate .. seem like there was almost nothing that wasn't possible (except for trying to transport 16/32tonnes raw industries in any kind of manner to break even at all)
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