IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-06-18
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00:00:27 <SmatZ> doesn't look like timeout
00:00:34 * Georgio is away and will be right back.
00:02:47 *** eQualizer|dada is now known as eQualizer
00:02:55 <Georgio> why did evrything freeze
00:04:25 <SmatZ> server stopped sending you data
00:04:32 <SmatZ> you disconnected for some reason
00:04:47 <SmatZ> maybe the server is too far for you
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00:10:08 <Aramani> it took my first name >.<
00:10:29 <Aramani> its saying nick "Georgio" is already in use
00:11:19 <Aramani> ill go rename myself in awhile
00:11:34 <SmatZ> glx: no, I have mighty powers :-P
00:14:28 <Aramani> dunununununununa L33T MAN!
00:17:09 <Aramani> what server should i join...
00:17:24 <Aramani> idk which map size is suitible
00:19:19 * Aramani joins Speedy Gonzalez's server...
00:21:06 <Aramani> whyd it stop downloading the map at 82/173kbits to go?
00:24:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling that your connection is not as excellent as you think it is
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01:31:29 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Hendikins was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 2 days, 12 hours, 28 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <Hendikins> I've only sold one ticket, but at least it is an expensive one
01:32:35 <Belugas> Aramani, just to try something, what version are you running?
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01:34:26 <Aramani> i said that like 10hrs ago
01:34:47 <Aramani> im on my own passworded server
01:34:48 <Belugas> i have not viewed all the conversations that occured
01:35:11 <Aramani> the pass is 021793 if you want to do CO OP
01:49:17 <Belugas> Aramani, i've just tried the Speedy Gonzaleze server. it is quite a fine one.
01:49:33 <Belugas> i guess your machine may not be powerfull enugh to handle the load
01:49:43 <Belugas> it's taht or your connection is not as good as it may appear
01:54:20 <Aramani> wow i have fiber optics, connecting to oher sountys shoud be a snap
01:56:08 <Belugas> can yu explain that then : [20:18] <Aramani> whyd it stop downloading the map at 82/173kbits to go?
01:56:09 <Aramani> nvm ill be back later like in a few hours bye all
01:56:27 * Aramani sleeps... ZZZzzzz.......
02:04:27 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: belugas * r13560 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Fix(r13550): This section widget_count did not required to be lowered. So small revert
02:05:04 <ccfreak2k> As if the fiber part had anything to do with it.
02:05:52 <ccfreak2k> I just connected to the speedy 512x256 server.
02:05:57 <ccfreak2k> It took me all of five seconds to join.
02:11:37 <Belugas> so, most be the program :S
02:11:46 <ccfreak2k> Pfft, I get fiber every day in my cereal.
02:12:05 <Belugas> and fiber are good for your REGULARITY
02:12:20 <Belugas> nicer way to say something... not nice ;)
02:12:25 <ccfreak2k> It keeps your gastrointestinal tract clean.
02:38:40 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: belugas * r13561 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Codechange: two more enumifications of widgets
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03:19:54 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: belugas * r13562 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Yet another enumification, which required a bit of explanation/documentation of a trickery some would call a hack
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08:14:46 <peter1138> microsoft is glados?
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09:45:44 <SmatZ> I think it isn't for the first time when MS sends FF a cake
09:46:54 <blathijs> No, the article says they did it for FF2 as well
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09:52:57 <SmoKeyy> wow a lot of people playing this game
09:53:13 <SmoKeyy> can somebody help me out, i'm trying to play online but it says that my game is out of date
09:53:32 <SmoKeyy> that i have another version than the servers
09:53:53 <SmoKeyy> my openttd.exe version is0.4.7.0
09:54:02 <SmoKeyy> the most recent on the website
09:54:49 <SmatZ> download 0.6.1 from www.openttd.org
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09:56:59 <SmoKeyy> i read to version 4.8.0
09:58:57 <peter1138> yeah, 0.4.7 is a bit old :)
10:06:47 <Rubidium> SmoKeyy: you better use the official website the next time I guess
10:08:46 <Mchl> I've seen at least one another site that claimed to be 'official'
10:14:19 <dih> SmoKeyy: what website was that?
10:56:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> # little boxes, on the hillside
10:56:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> # little boxes, made of tickytacky
10:58:41 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13563 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_execmode.cpp ai_testmode.cpp ai_transactionmode.cpp):
10:58:41 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: added some asserts to ensure sanity of AI*Modes.
10:58:41 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Note: it has to be said that currently 'scoping' is broken, and it is possible to cause an assert. But it is better to have an assert, than to build stuff for real in TestMode ;)
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11:54:42 <SmoKeyy> i only misread the install
11:54:56 <SmoKeyy> instead of "upgrade from version 4..." i read "to version 4.7"
11:55:04 <SmoKeyy> so, my mistake, human error =)
11:55:17 <SmoKeyy> 1st multiplayer match and owned their asses
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12:09:48 <Smoky555> i have a question, who makes nightly builds (on nightly.openttd.org)? or who make script for this builds?
12:10:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the script is in svn
12:10:41 <Eddi|zuHause> under /compilefarm
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12:12:36 <Mchl> under /extra/compilefarm
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12:13:23 <Mchl> you're setting up your own farm Smoky555?
12:14:34 * Smoky555 going to snv checkout and reading README file :)
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12:15:15 <Smoky555> Mchl: yes, i want make something like nigthly-bulds for our Rusian Community PatchPack ...
12:16:28 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could instead just ask for an svn branch and a compile time ;)
12:16:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it was done for MiniIN
12:17:16 <Rubidium> SmoKeyy: for making nightly builds the compilefarm scripts aren't important
12:18:36 <peter1138> what do we have them for then? heh
12:19:20 <Rubidium> you need the compile environments for the different targets
12:19:33 <Rubidium> which is a gazillion times harder to get than scripting it so it happens automatically
12:19:39 <Eddi|zuHause> a 4 letter common prefix is insane :p
12:21:53 <Rubidium> try getting a working cross-compile environment for OSX for example
12:22:27 <Smoky555> Rubidium: ok, i'll try
12:23:02 <Rubidium> was more sarcastically meant
12:23:36 <Rubidium> without an OSX machine it's almost impossible to get the required stuff to make a cross-compile environment for OSX
12:26:49 <eekee> should be able to get an older os x machine quite cheap
12:27:05 <eekee> I have a 2001 ibook running tiger
12:27:06 <Rubidium> and well... for legal issues we can't give you the environment
12:27:38 <Rubidium> eekee: but does that support the latest SDKs?
12:28:37 <ln> what are the "latest SDKs"?
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12:29:06 <Hendikins> 2001 iBook? Doesn't that belong in a museum or something? :P
12:29:22 <ln> if it's tiger, then it supports the SDKs required for universal binaries.
12:29:27 <eekee> Rubidium: not sure what version I've got but it's fairly recent
12:29:47 <eekee> Hendikins: it's getting that way, but like any other piece of hardware it has it's uses
12:30:17 <Rubidium> ln: I can't tell, cause I've got no developer access at Apple
12:30:19 <eekee> Smoky555: any apple with a firewire port will run tiger, I believe
12:30:24 <ln> eekee: that is assuming, of course, that you have installed recent developer tools from Apple.
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13:11:26 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r13564 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_anim.cpp: -Codechange: do not use SetPixel in PaletteAnimate, access destination directly instead. Makes palette animation ~40% faster.
13:12:20 <planetmaker> wow. seems like SmatZ is a speed junky :). Good one :)
13:12:53 <SmatZ> but this applies only to 32bpp-animated
13:13:17 <planetmaker> hm... maybe I should switch to 32bpp :)
13:13:38 <eekee> It won't help a machine that's slowing down when lots of vehicles have to be drawn, will it?
13:14:00 <SmatZ> this is only about palette animation...
13:14:17 <SmatZ> I have patch ready that makes 32bpp_*::Draw() ~50% faster
13:14:30 <planetmaker> another 50%? wow :)
13:15:01 <ccfreak2k> Say, what IS 50% of 1ms?
13:15:05 <planetmaker> 0.6 * 0.5 = 0.3 -> overall gain 70%? :)
13:15:32 <eekee> ccfreak2k: 0.5ms or 500 micro-seconds
13:15:50 <SmatZ> how often you need to call that 1ms procedure :-P
13:15:56 <eekee> SmatZ: I love you! erm... ;;;
13:16:04 <planetmaker> he. Windows timing is not better than 1ms.
13:16:23 <SmatZ> I use TIC() / TOC() functions
13:16:25 <planetmaker> ...platnonicly... :)
13:16:31 <SmatZ> that use rdtsc instructions
13:16:54 <SmatZ> don't be too ecstatic, there are still many other functions related to drawing
13:17:06 <planetmaker> oh... don't know those :). I just know that without realtime hardware my measurements on windows don't get better than 1ms.
13:18:41 <SmatZ> I just don't want you to be disappointed :)
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13:23:15 <planetmaker> SmatZ: no worries :). The biggest gain probably is still related to path finding.
13:23:31 <planetmaker> (but just a wild guess)
13:24:28 <planetmaker> maybe gain is wrong. But calls * computing time per run used. Doesn't mean there's much to do.
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13:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> apart from ECS, collision detection is probably the most CPU intensive part, then pathfinder (YAPF)
13:26:30 <Eddi|zuHause> (rail) YAPF has already been heavily optimised for speed
13:26:35 <peter1138> why not profile instead of guessing?
13:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't, i'm on strike :p
13:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but really, ECS is insane
13:27:57 <peter1138> SmatZ improved collision detection massively quite a long time ago
13:28:20 <peter1138> i don't think ECS itself is that slow when a game runs
13:28:30 <peter1138> it's only on game creation that you notice it
13:28:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it chokes on a freshly generated 2048x2048 map with very low industries (~2000)
13:29:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it gets better once the industries start closing down
13:29:39 <eekee> oh so that's what slows big maps down!
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13:30:22 <eekee> I'm playing 64x64 & 128x12 maps on my Zaurus. Also started a 64x512, but haven't felt like playing it much
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13:30:44 <eekee> I really want a new climate set. I don't ask for much do I? :D
13:31:02 <planetmaker> what's slowing down is a 1024^2 map with 1000 trains :P
13:31:06 <planetmaker> Otherwise no problems
13:31:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i said freshly generated... no trains
13:31:24 <planetmaker> but of course we all want 2000 trains on the same hardware :)
13:31:32 <eekee> planetmaker: naturally :D
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13:31:38 <SmatZ> GetSlopeZ takes considerable part of CPU time nowadays
13:31:56 <planetmaker> GetSlopeZ <-- what's that for?
13:32:18 <SmatZ> planetmaker: get altitude of any "point"
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13:32:26 <SmatZ> works on sub-tile coords
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13:32:33 <planetmaker> [15:26] <peter1138> why not profile instead of guessing? <-- any place where I can find out how to?
13:32:36 <SmatZ> 16x16 "subcoords" per tile
13:32:43 <eekee> whoa, what's it used for?
13:32:48 <SmatZ> planetmaker: ./configure --enable-profiling :-P
13:32:56 <planetmaker> :P. That's easy :)
13:33:02 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: make gprof (or something)
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13:33:14 <planetmaker> then even I could doo that.
13:33:15 <SmatZ> eekee: affecting speed by Z change, drawing, coords update,...
13:34:36 <SmatZ> also acceleration, speed calculations
13:35:12 <SmatZ> well, not that often, you have flags like VRF_GOINGUP ...
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13:36:46 <Eddi|zuHause> ahh... make run-prof was it...
13:37:19 <SmatZ> PF uses GetSlopeZ for slope detection and penalties
13:37:23 <SmatZ> maybe this should be optimised
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13:56:40 <Eddi|zuHause> (almost empty map...)
13:57:15 <Eddi|zuHause> (just ECS, and like 5 trams and two trains)
13:59:15 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, it's hardly playable... it feels like my 386 DX 25 when i maxed out 80 trains
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14:01:45 <eekee> hmm I don't think I've played TTD without ECS on my Z. Had one bit of wierdness where a factory mysteriously got plastic, but I think that cleared up when I upgraded
14:06:39 <eekee> nope, it's still mysteriously getting plastic with no deliveries
14:15:11 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause: how big is the map? What processor & ram?
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14:16:24 <Eddi|zuHause> something like an athlon 3000+ (running on ~2GHz)
14:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> ram practically infinite
14:16:48 <Eddi|zuHause> very low industries
14:17:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood that AMD naming scheme...
14:18:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "it runs on 2000MHz, let's call it 3000"
14:18:28 <Eddi|zuHause> like the hard disk manufacturers... "it holds 300GB, let's call it 400"
14:18:33 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause: I see. I suppose that must be ECI
14:19:12 <eekee> well AMD said their numbers were 'equivalant' to intel processor speeds. Seems a fair comparison as far I can tell
14:19:39 <Rubidium> they are actually a scale to some of the first Athlon procs
14:20:31 <Rubidium> so say the first Athlon proc (theoretically) clocked at 3000 MHz will run as fast as Eddi|zuHause's Athlon whatever 3000 proc
14:21:22 <Eddi|zuHause> eekee: yes, it suggests that it's ECS because maps run fine without ECS...
14:24:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it needs a better ECS implementation
14:24:33 <Eddi|zuHause> but MB's implementation probably ships with DNF :p
14:24:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Duke Nukem Forever
14:26:23 <eekee> I should try & get on with my lunar set. Slow work.
14:26:43 <eekee> actually, I should probably put it up on the forums for others to pitch in
14:27:33 <Eddi|zuHause> but really, there are so many things about George's ECS that i loathe and despise
14:28:12 <Eddi|zuHause> this is a transport simulation, not an economy simulation
14:29:25 <ccfreak2k> Hooray, openttd crashed.
14:32:07 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause: it's just too easy to ship a billion tones of stuff to one factory. Although actually that's a trackmaking challenge in it's own right... I think I have a save game for my 2050 transport co somewhere on the net
14:34:37 <eekee> no I haven't. I was gettign around 1.5k goods a month from one factory before BO[A]E, 5k after
14:35:24 <planetmaker> you should fivefold that :) Then we can talk about "much" :)
14:36:19 <eekee> I was just thinking I should do more of that. It would be more fun than playing with sluggish, buggy, ECS, although I do appreciate having different cargos & different cargo chains. Gets old otherwise
14:37:01 <eekee> come to think of it I don't much appreciate the economy side of ECS
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14:52:00 <planetmaker> though I'd like the option to turn off stockpile limits
14:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause> <eekee> come to think of it I don't much appreciate the economy side of ECS <- that is exactly what i have been saying :p
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14:57:27 * SmatZ agrees with planetmaker, stockpile limits block megalomanic games like openttdcoop games :-P
14:58:37 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause: yeah.. I only just realised I don't. :) Everything else about it I like
14:59:15 <eekee> PBI is nice, yeah, but the stockpiling gets to be a drag
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15:00:48 <eekee> oh there's one little thing I wish normal industries would do, or rather not do. I wish that e.g. a factory wouldn't come out with a full production of goods from a trainload input until that train has finished unloading
15:01:51 <SmatZ> Rubidium: but I think the map is too small, 512x512 with 1000+ trains is minimum :)
15:01:51 <eekee> Rubidium: woo, what a map!
15:01:55 <Eddi|zuHause> indeed, i noticed that, too :p
15:02:10 <eekee> oh 'eck, you guys are beyond me :D
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15:03:26 <Rubidium> the major problem on my map is the lack of space to build
15:03:35 <Rubidium> which makes it challenging
15:03:55 <eekee> I have trouble planning actually. Like, as a disability; so my networks tend to have all sorts of fiddly little bodges all over them, and sometimes I fail to realise something is possible
15:04:10 <eekee> I love the challenge of lack of space though
15:05:23 <eekee> I've lately been playing a 128x128 with 3 growing towns and most of the industries clustered around those towns
15:08:40 <SmatZ> I like no-terraform rule
15:09:00 <SmatZ> it is very challenging on hilly terrain :)
15:09:22 <eekee> I have the landscape toolbar permanantly open lol
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15:09:55 <eekee> btw ctrl-Z isn't used for anything normally is it?
15:10:11 <felix101> can u guys help me with a simple question? ^^
15:10:30 <eekee> dunno yet, the answer may be beyond our intellect ;)
15:11:00 <felix101> well... i want to use the ECS vectors set
15:11:33 * eekee makes a mental note to find out what these vectors things are
15:12:01 <ccfreak2k> The "vectors" in ECS are groups of similar industries.
15:12:05 <felix101> i'd like to know what vehicles i have to use to transport all the stuff like sand, fish and fruits
15:12:05 <Eddi|zuHause> <SmatZ> I like no-terraform rule <- there was a grf that heavily increased terraforming costs, bad thing was that it also increased the costs of foundations, which no-terraforming should encourage instead
15:12:24 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause: ah.. yeah...
15:12:36 <ccfreak2k> felix101, the ECS wiki pages specify which vehicle packs are compatible with ECS.
15:12:44 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: there's a hacki-sh patch which de-couples that...
15:12:54 <ccfreak2k> There's also a newGRF that adds most of the ECS cargo to the default cars.
15:12:59 <felix101> so do i need a special vehicle pack to use ECS?
15:13:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but like you said... hack... patch...
15:13:02 <planetmaker> and then connects it to the rail build costs.
15:13:07 <ccfreak2k> felix101, in short: yes.
15:13:12 <ccfreak2k> You'll need at least one.
15:13:16 <eekee> felix101: I use UKRS & NART. basically they rely on refitting to handle similar types of cargo
15:13:23 <felix101> the ecs wiki is not very helpful there
15:13:28 <ccfreak2k> Otherwise you'll only be able to move like...passengers adn coal.
15:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and i have the terraforming toolbar open mainly for the 'D' hotkey
15:13:40 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause: well yeah :)
15:13:41 <felix101> yeah ^^, that's what i was thinking about all the time
15:13:56 <planetmaker> I also have a patch to disable terraforming beyond changing of two corners of a single tile...
15:14:18 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i tried to use that patch for a while, but it caused a hell of conflicts, because it changes files all over the place
15:15:08 <planetmaker> hm... I should know. But when building the wwottdgd patch the modified slopes patch is always one of the least problematic ones.
15:15:27 <planetmaker> ...I should know where it hooks...
15:16:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i have an idea to balance terraforming: store how often you terraformed into the same direction (up = +1/down = -1), and make the terraforming costs dependent on this number (linear or quadratic)
15:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause> that way flattening an entire map will get almost impossible
15:16:42 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: you're not alone with that idea. :)
15:16:44 <Eddi|zuHause> while you can still terraform small sections, as long as you do up/down
15:16:59 <eekee> hmm the last game I played with AI, the AI flattened a hill for me, lol
15:17:08 <planetmaker> But costs have to rise exponentially at least.
15:17:22 <planetmaker> Because money very easily is no issue.
15:17:31 <Eddi|zuHause> exponentially is really extreme
15:17:44 <Eddi|zuHause> instead make money an issue ;)
15:17:53 <planetmaker> not really extrem.
15:18:10 <planetmaker> gamma function would be extrem
15:18:21 <planetmaker> (=fractional factorial)
15:18:52 <ccfreak2k> Or make it some fraction of your company value or something.
15:19:18 <planetmaker> ccfreak2k: that doesn't hurt. If I own 5 billion, I don't mind 2.5 billion
15:19:59 <ccfreak2k> 0.99 is a fraction. :)
15:20:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you should be charged an "inefficency overhead" for the amount of vehicles you own
15:20:12 <planetmaker> only, if the fraction increases with the amount of tiles modified. And reaches 100% when modifying 10 tiles or so
15:20:30 <planetmaker> nah, unnecessary complication
15:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> or "other assets"
15:21:01 <Eddi|zuHause> why complication? it would balance the size of your company
15:21:19 <Eddi|zuHause> currently, when you run two overpaid coal lines, you get twice the money
15:21:29 <Eddi|zuHause> which means you amass a lot of money
15:21:36 <Eddi|zuHause> which makes money a non-issue
15:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but money should be an issue
15:21:52 <planetmaker> which is fine. Even if you lost 5% for running two lines, it wouldn't solve anything.
15:21:53 <Eddi|zuHause> so if a company grows, it should make less money
15:21:59 <ccfreak2k> While we're at it, let's add anti-trust laws. :)
15:22:08 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause: "inneficiency overhead" would be an ecconomy thing. :p
15:22:30 <Eddi|zuHause> eekee: yes, but not one you'd have to micromanage aroudn
15:22:42 <eekee> wellllll... ok then hehe
15:22:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just sit there and eat half of your income (with 100 vehicles)
15:23:16 <planetmaker> I don't mind having money as a non-issue. I play it for the fun of building :)
15:23:33 <planetmaker> logarithmic money eater...
15:23:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, something like that ;)
15:23:53 <peter1138> service levels based on staff
15:23:59 <peter1138> staff cost shed loads
15:24:09 <peter1138> reduce staff and your costs drop but service sucks
15:24:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, something like that
15:24:29 <planetmaker> as an option to the game...
15:24:43 <Eddi|zuHause> of course, it would be a difficulty option
15:24:54 <planetmaker> He, me thinks someone owns some interesting patch in that direction.
15:25:13 <peter1138> well, maybe, but not me
15:26:01 <eekee> we already have running costs...
15:26:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but they do not scale with company size
15:27:17 <planetmaker> they scale linearily with the amount of vehicles.
15:27:28 <planetmaker> or what do you define as "company size"?
15:27:31 <SmatZ> you have Property maintenance field in the Finances window
15:28:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that one is (currently) insignificant
15:28:24 <eekee> property maintainance could be implemented better. I found otu the other day that reducing the size of your stations and removing roads and depots makes little or no difference
15:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i mean it should be non-linear
15:30:05 <planetmaker> which is counter-intuitive: you own one vehicle and pay x for maintenance tools & people
15:30:49 <planetmaker> you own two people and pay 2x+y in maintenance & people while in RL it's the other way around.
15:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> no, let's view it like this: you have 1 engine, 1 driving crew and 1 maintenance crew
15:31:57 <Eddi|zuHause> you have 2 engines, 2 driving crews and 1 maintenance crew
15:32:13 <Eddi|zuHause> you have 10 engines, 10 driving crews and 5 maintenance crews and 2 managers
15:32:40 <Eddi|zuHause> after a while, the manager portion gets a huge overhead
15:32:50 <planetmaker> you have 100 engines, 110 driving crews, 10 maintenance and 200 managers :P
15:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> while the driving crews and maintenance crews scale linearly
15:33:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, something like that
15:33:32 * eekee hides from all those managers
15:33:56 <planetmaker> eekee: no point. They will find you and manage every second of your life :P
15:33:58 *** Osai`off is now known as Osai
15:34:43 <planetmaker> ok, off for a bit. Got to get some food - or there won't be anything to manage or being managed of myself :)
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15:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> what i wanted to say: going from 1 engine to 2 engines should double your income, but going from 100 engines to 200 engines should hardly increase your income
15:39:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it would also add a different level of challenge for the coop-style 1000 train maps
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15:42:44 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause: I can't really see that being a really big change. It might mean exceptionally long trains and lower station ratings
15:43:26 <Eddi|zuHause> do you have any idea what lower station ratings do to a coop network?
15:43:47 <eekee> I would imagine a domino effect... ack
15:44:10 <eekee> What's getting me is that it seems more obstructive than challenging. How do you work around it?
15:45:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the challenge is not that it prevents you from building this kind of network, but you don't have an infinite amount of money to work with
15:46:44 * eekee has cheap freebie brain <-- that works too
15:56:07 * eekee makes himself a big non-ECS map on his PDA to see what he can work with
15:58:53 <eekee> the trouble with TTD on my PDA is that the screen is something like 260dpi. The text is smaller than the tip of the stylus ^^;
16:01:02 <eekee> it's kinda passable, but I just can't can't calibrate it finely enough
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16:09:18 <eekee> 640x480, 93mm diagonal (4")
16:10:52 <peter1138> 93mm? that's massive
16:11:30 <eekee> peter1138: compared with the 14" screens TTD was designed for? I don't thikn so
16:13:17 <Rubidium> no peter1138, he didn't mean 93 inch diagonal
16:13:38 <peter1138> Rubidium, of course not, he'd've written 93" if that's what he meant
16:14:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd like a 93' diagonal ;)
16:14:16 <eekee> anyway the point is that lines of text are < 1.5mm tall. Playing is okay although the multi-angle track tool is difficult, but configuring requires patience *nod*
16:14:25 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause: wouldn't we all :D
16:14:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm just not sure where to put that one...
16:14:32 <peter1138> the main problem is there's no proper port
16:14:42 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but only with super-hi-vision resolution
16:14:44 <peter1138> so you have to use some stupid gay one made by fucktards
16:15:04 <eekee> proper port? Oh! Not a Linux PDA I take it?
16:15:33 * peter1138 ponders resurrecting his attempts at getting it to work
16:15:37 <glx> too bad I can't do wince stuff with express
16:15:59 <eekee> lol, my PDA isn't so much a PDA as a pocket unix box, for tinkering with when I'm waiting around. I actually build TTD on it because it's easier
16:16:18 <Rubidium> oh that reminds me, I accidentally installed the pocketpc sdk crap of MSVC 2009 in virtual box
16:17:50 <glx> and I only have winCE 5 and win modile 5 emulators
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16:21:50 <fjb> Why do the bridges always have pillars that block the diagonal rails under it? :(
16:21:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... i can absolutely not isolate the trouble my PC is making suddenly
16:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> it ran fine for weeks previously, the temperature is low...
16:23:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> but it suddenly just freezes
16:23:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> multiple times per day
16:24:05 <glx> mine does that sometimes, the hard drive just stops
16:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> not sure... <5years
16:24:40 <eekee> I found I ave to keep the hard drive cool on my ~5 year old PC
16:24:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, i had harddrive stopping issues previously, but they look different
16:25:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> the harddrive makes a certain sound when stopping, and afterwards i can still access other harddrives
16:25:26 <glx> I have only one harddrive
16:25:28 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: where do you know it is cool enough? cpu temp sensor?
16:25:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> it does not simply freeze
16:25:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> sensor says 45°C
16:25:59 <planetmaker> maybe it's a broken sensor? :)
16:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> it previously sustained temperatures up to 70°C
16:26:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> i opened the case, and put a huge ventilator in front of it
16:26:26 <fjb> Disassemble and then reassemble everything. Usually the contacs get some problems after some years.
16:26:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> the temperature looks nice
16:26:35 <planetmaker> hm.... memory error? disable dims one by one and see how that works
16:27:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> i tried the memory sticks, the problem is always the same
16:27:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> i tried increasing the space between the harddrives for better air flow
16:27:53 <eekee> I only had one drive and still had to leave the side off the case
16:28:03 <planetmaker> test your power supply for current constancy then
16:28:30 <eekee> if you've got a fan on them that wouldn't be it though
16:28:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> i also checked the GPU cooler, because i had trouble with that in the past
16:28:44 <planetmaker> he, my desktop also is missing a side - get's too hot in summer otherwise :)
16:29:37 <eekee> ya I've run most of mine without sides
16:29:58 <glx> I noticed mine was cooler with the sides
16:30:33 <glx> (mainly because passive GPU needs a nice airflow)
16:30:59 <eekee> I kinda miss my XT case mod though. Old IBM XT case modded for a.. K6 iirc, with the ugly plastic front removed to show thick shiny black painted metal with a neat array of holes
16:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> the weirdest thing was: when the freezing started i could not even boot properly, because it would freeze during the start of X
16:31:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> then i booted with runlevel 3
16:31:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> and after i turned off swap, i suddenly could boot
16:31:37 <eekee> that sounds like a hard drive issue again
16:31:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> s/boot/start x/
16:32:01 <planetmaker> hm... rather memory
16:32:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> but i also get freezes while watching TV, which should not use hard drive
16:32:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> and i get no freezes while recording tv
16:32:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> it is _something_, but i cannot isolate it
16:33:16 <planetmaker> buy a new pc and replace components piecewise :)
16:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> the symptoms are too sporadic and isolated
16:33:35 <planetmaker> maybe some mainboard thingy.
16:33:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't have the money for a new PC, i need a car
16:33:59 <eekee> yeah, I guess mainboard
16:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, but i can't just buy a new mainboard which will be compatible with my old components (ram, cpu)
16:35:10 <eekee> how do you scroll the map with only a touchscreen?
16:35:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> use the arrow keys ;)
16:35:42 <planetmaker> I guess the same as with a touchpad?
16:36:06 *** Lakie` is now known as Lakie
16:36:17 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause2: no the map not the map, lol. The map window
16:37:07 <planetmaker> Here it's IIRC cmd + move
16:37:14 <planetmaker> move on touchpad that is.
16:38:34 <eekee> yeah that'll work on a Mac. I'm using a linux PDA
16:38:43 <eekee> (with keyboard, of sorts)
16:38:49 <planetmaker> :) That's probably why it works here :)
16:42:31 <eekee> btw I bound the console to ctrl-z because there's no key above tab or left of 1. It's not worth submitting the patch is it?
16:42:54 <planetmaker> hm. console is ^for me (left of 1)
16:43:37 <planetmaker> and it has been so as long as I know OpenTTD
16:43:39 <eekee> yeah it's always left of one, but there's nothing there on my pda, so I had to find something else
16:43:56 <eekee> it wouldn't be for general use obviously
16:44:13 <planetmaker> Ah, I see. Well, why not submit a patch?
16:44:53 <planetmaker> at least those dev for other mobile devices might like it.
16:45:49 <eekee> well, I suppose I'd have to find out how to make it an option, or could I leave that to someone else? :)
16:46:22 <glx> there's a toggle console in the help menu
16:47:12 <eekee> I suppose no so much needed as a patch then
16:47:13 <planetmaker> eekee: just make it via #ifdef PDA ... #endif
16:47:31 <planetmaker> (whatever environment is appropriate)
16:52:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> or just make all hotkeys configurable :p
16:52:30 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause2: :P I guess if it's done properly, that's a feature worth for trunk :)
16:54:50 <eekee> that would be much better than a compile-time patch that only fixes one issue on only certan models of PDA
16:55:57 <planetmaker> but it's a bit of work :)
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16:58:03 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r13565 /trunk/src/ (4 files):
16:58:03 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Change [FS#2077]: when invisibility is set, sprite sequences are now drawn until first non-opaque sprite is found (bit 14 not set)
16:58:03 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: This is to balance performance, code complexity and NewGRF requirements
17:01:41 <planetmaker> hm... how do I activate the 32bpp graphics?
17:01:54 <planetmaker> just load appropriate newgrf?
17:01:55 <SmatZ> planetmaker: openttd -b 32bpp-optimized or 32bpp-anim
17:02:10 <SmatZ> yeah, place TARs or PNGs in the data directory
17:02:32 <planetmaker> ok, so I do have to get those first, I guess :)
17:03:00 <planetmaker> they're not part of the openttdcoop grfpack, right?
17:04:01 <SmatZ> they are at 32bpp threat at tt-forums...
17:04:19 <SmatZ> when you find any nice with transparency, let me know :)
17:04:33 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
17:05:55 <glx> planetmaker: there are no 32bpp grfs
17:06:33 <planetmaker> ok, I'll shop around then in the forums :).
17:06:52 <planetmaker> glx: how do you mean? It certainly cannot be the case to have this feature without any way to use it?
17:07:12 <planetmaker> or you mean newgrf? Like replacing default graphics?
17:08:02 <glx> 32bpp graphics are not newgrfs
17:08:39 <planetmaker> yeah, thought so. So it's a replacement for the original sprites? Like the OpenGFX things?
17:08:39 <glx> but you can have a newgrf and a tar providing 32bpp graphics for it
17:08:40 <Wolf01> they are simply .tar packets
17:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> you put the .tar next to the .grf
17:09:17 <planetmaker> hm... I guess I haven't understood the concept... :S
17:09:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> or actually it should be possible to put the .grf into the .tar
17:09:57 <glx> in the tar you can have the .grf and a sprites/ dir
17:10:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> but .grfs are not capable of holding 32bpp images
17:10:38 <ccfreak2k> <SmatZ> they are at 32bpp threat at tt-forums...
17:11:06 * Wolf01 wonders when we'll have direct .nfo reading so you can use tars without grfs, like a decompiled grf
17:11:23 <peter1138> threat -> thread i'd assume
17:11:40 <ccfreak2k> Or maybe the 16bpp crowd is angry.
17:11:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> Wolf01: that'd require including grfcodec...
17:12:49 <ccfreak2k> Maybe that's why they're angry!
17:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe it'd be a good compromise :p
17:13:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> now THAT is what a stopping HD sounds like...
17:13:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> and that does not cause an immediate freeze
17:13:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> i can still access all programs which are in memory
17:13:58 *** Wolf01 is now known as Wolf01|AWAY
17:14:09 <ccfreak2k> You just get access errors when you try to hit the disk.
17:14:10 <DaleStan> <Eddi|zuHause2> but .grfs are not capable of holding 32bpp images <-- Incorrect. GRF is a just a container. The container happens to be optimized for small 8bpp images, but any arbitrary data can be placed in the container.
17:14:34 <ccfreak2k> God help you if your swap file/partition is on the disk too.
17:15:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> but i'll have to reboot now
17:16:08 <ccfreak2k> Good luck. Your operating system will want to flush data to your non-existant disk.
17:17:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> after swapping around my / partition, the only thing that should access that disk should be the torrent app
17:20:58 <ccfreak2k> Did www.tt-forums.net suddenly become unreachable by anyone else?
17:23:28 <ccfreak2k> Must've beena hiccup.
17:25:29 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
17:29:23 <ccfreak2k> Apparently 81.171.98.112 is on PeerGuardian's P2P list.
17:30:31 <eekee> maybe it was put on by some automated system watching for file uploads & downloads?
17:31:51 <Eddi|zuHause> for the record: shutting down worked alright, up to the point where it wanted to unmount the offending harddrive, which also prevented unmounting the harddrives which contained the used mountpoints
17:32:49 <peter1138> magic sysrq required
17:33:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll try to completely remove that harddrive from the system, let's see if that helps
17:33:46 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's 120GB of storage space... :(
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17:42:45 <yorick> dih, please don't stalk me
17:43:17 <dih> are you out of your mind?
17:43:28 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
17:43:44 <dih> simply because i joined a channel you are the ONLY member of
17:43:49 <dih> does not mean i am stalking you
17:43:55 <Eddi|zuHause> *mental note* remove fstab entry before rebooting :p
17:43:58 <dih> besids, i left in the same minute
17:44:08 <dih> yorick: get a life and grow up
17:44:55 <yorick> then what does it mean? you did /whois yorick and joined the channel you didn't know?
17:45:55 <dih> yorick: what on earth is your issue
17:46:45 <eekee> yorick: you know, it might actually mean he thought "that's a cool channel name, I'm going to go check it out," In which case I THINK that it's you who's being creepy by obsessing over someone else's little decisions
17:47:25 <dih> in all honesty i only wanted to copy past the channels name send my bot in, find out who was there, and remove my bot again
17:47:30 <dih> unfort i double clicked it
17:47:40 <dih> but if you are so obsessed about my possibly stalking you
17:47:52 <dih> i can remove you from every channel i have the rights to do so
17:48:14 <hylje> maybe /ignore works better
17:49:14 <dih> did not even have to do anything!
17:49:42 <dih> Belugas: i just made your day :-P
17:51:39 <Eddi|zuHause> you pressed Alt+Z too often :p
17:51:41 <eekee> "The real trouble with reality is that there's no background music" <-- made me laugh ^^
17:51:44 <dih> who now probably is reading the logs very carefully to see what i say about him! (he's done that before)
17:52:34 <dih> had baned him from a channel and he started reading the logs to see what we say about him, then started pm'ing another guy about what he had said in that channel...
17:53:07 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i also remember such incidents here
17:53:41 <dih> nice thing about some bots is, they have a no-log trigger function :-P
17:54:19 <TiberiusTeng> ahh ... 32bpp. I've away from openttd code for 3 days .....
17:58:27 <Belugas> good for those who appreciate it
17:58:40 <Belugas> sad for him, unless it was willingly
17:58:51 <Belugas> sorry for lack of enthusiasm
17:58:54 <ccfreak2k> Maybe it's good for OpenGL too. No need to convert colors.
18:01:00 <TiberiusTeng> it's still making me headache ... I wish to finish it into a 'usable' state, but it's way more difficult than I thought
18:04:20 <TiberiusTeng> and it's not immediately 'helpful' for most people :p
18:04:56 <ccfreak2k> I'd certainly find it "helpful" if a non-insignificant portion of OpenTTD's CPU time got offloaded to the GU as a result.
18:05:44 <TiberiusTeng> rendering isn't the bottleneck actually
18:06:38 <TiberiusTeng> I believe tileloops (for huge maps), vehicle pathfinding are more demanding
18:06:55 <ccfreak2k> It might be when someone decides to run OpenTTD on a 10,000^2 screen.
18:07:24 <eekee> something graphical seems to be a bottleneck on my PDA
18:07:45 <TiberiusTeng> in debug build OpenGL's faster, but in release build 32bpp-anim is faster ;)
18:08:16 <eekee> 128x128 map, ECI, runs just-about ok until I scroll over a town with many trucks & trams or sometimes over a busy station.
18:08:57 <peter1138> TiberiusTeng, not too surprising :)
18:09:13 <TiberiusTeng> I've almost nailed the bottleneck in OpenGL blitter, but it just can't be easily solved with scalability.
18:09:24 <TiberiusTeng> (the texture switching & batching thing)
18:09:55 <ccfreak2k> Apparently, the "water tanker" vehicle only hauls plastic.
18:10:13 <TiberiusTeng> I'll finish the texture atlas & drawlist, then I'll release it whatever it's faster or not. :p
18:10:40 <eekee> ccfreak2k: you can't refit it?
18:11:02 <TiberiusTeng> peter1138, my 7600GT only handle ~15k state changes under 60fps, which includes draw commands, texture state changes, etc.
18:11:15 <ccfreak2k> eekee, nope. Just lists "30,000 litres of plastic"
18:11:20 <TiberiusTeng> because I'm using independent textures for every sprite, that's really tight for now
18:11:24 <ccfreak2k> There's three or four other tanker cars, though.
18:11:37 <ccfreak2k> I just find it funny that "water tanker" doesn't actually haul water.
18:11:39 <eekee> ccfreak2k: ah, little bug >_>
18:11:46 <TiberiusTeng> for each sprite bind two textures, draw a quad
18:12:42 <TiberiusTeng> time is spent in the driver, busy-looping to wait the card finish switching texture :<
18:13:03 <TiberiusTeng> openttd.exe 5% on a core, nvoglnt.dll 60% on another core, really funny
18:13:20 <ccfreak2k> If I had profiling toolz on my Windows box, I'd help you out.
18:13:25 <ccfreak2k> It has ATi hardware.
18:13:34 <ccfreak2k> Also, this laptop has Unichrome.
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18:16:11 <TiberiusTeng> sounds great. I'll try to come up with a debugging build maybe this weekend ...
18:16:17 <ccfreak2k> There seems to be more than one "water tanker" in my vehicle list.
18:18:35 <TiberiusTeng> ccfreak2k, which ATI card are you using?
18:18:53 <ccfreak2k> Built-By-ATi Radeon X850 XT PE
18:20:35 <TiberiusTeng> great, it will work really well
18:21:11 <TiberiusTeng> but UniChrome won't, since it don't have fragment shader, you won't get remapped colors, company colors and even color texts :p
18:22:39 <ccfreak2k> My Dell Inspiron laptop has an Intel i915.
18:22:43 <ccfreak2k> Too bad the hard drive is dead. :|
18:24:49 <TiberiusTeng> i915 also works well with fragment shaders.
18:25:12 <TiberiusTeng> ha, I really should rewrite New Graph, middlestop and
18:25:26 <TiberiusTeng> NewGRF GUI, but OpenGL's just more fun to do
18:26:32 <ccfreak2k> Yes, the i900 series supports PS2.0 IIRC.
18:26:43 <ccfreak2k> Too bad the vertext shading is done in CPU. :|
18:27:01 <TiberiusTeng> that's not needed by OTTD ;)
18:27:52 <TiberiusTeng> I just can't stop thinking that if mobile devices have graphics acceleration ...
18:28:05 <TiberiusTeng> ... but they use OpenGL ES, an radically different API :Q
18:29:09 <Sacro> Swiss TV got the wrong subtitles for the German national anthem
18:29:48 <ccfreak2k> Looks to me OpenGL ES is to OpenGL as small C is to S.
18:29:51 <ccfreak2k> Rather, small C is to C.
18:30:46 <ccfreak2k> And small C is a pain in the ass.
18:31:11 <ccfreak2k> Throw out every single cool thing about C, save for pointers and arrays, and you get small C.
18:31:24 <TiberiusTeng> IIRC OpenGL ES 2.0 killed fixed function pipeline, and used a more OO API
18:31:34 <TiberiusTeng> but I just checked out the headers, almost the same O_o
18:32:25 <TiberiusTeng> maybe not the problem I should worry for now
18:35:40 <SmatZ> TiberiusTeng: how is your OpenGL patch going? do you have any working version I could try?
18:36:31 <TiberiusTeng> it's now playable, but slow & without palette-animation
18:36:40 <TiberiusTeng> I wish to refine it further before release a version
18:36:57 <TiberiusTeng> don't hurry, I'll eventually put that in tt-forums ;)
18:37:46 <Eddi|zuHause> <ccfreak2k> Too bad the hard drive is dead. :| <- i have a cheap harddrive to sell :p
18:37:48 <ccfreak2k> By "palette-animation" I assume you mean the little animations that buildings make.
18:38:02 <TiberiusTeng> which card/chip are you using? I plan to support only those with fragment shaders, so I can do all those lookups & effects
18:38:03 <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, is it a working drive and at least 40GB in size?
18:38:23 <TiberiusTeng> runway lights on airports, lighthouses, and the water
18:38:57 <ccfreak2k> The water "animation" is different from buildings?
18:39:01 <Eddi|zuHause> well... it is "working"... but it has a habit of suddenly switching off...
18:39:18 <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, how "cheap" is it?
18:39:21 <TiberiusTeng> each state of building 'steps' have independent sprites
18:39:29 <TiberiusTeng> as the rotating radar of airport
18:39:39 <TiberiusTeng> they already working great in OpenGL blitter
18:40:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i have not actually decided that...
18:45:22 <TiberiusTeng> damn, VC9 still uses Plauger STL ...
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19:25:46 <ccfreak2k> Apparently the rubber truck doesn't carry rubber, either.
19:25:57 <Belugas> i never actually stopped to "Listen" to the words :)
19:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: your newgrfs fail
19:26:49 <ccfreak2k> It's not "my" NewGRF.
19:27:16 <peter1138> it is your selection that 'fails'
19:27:47 <ccfreak2k> Excuse the hell out of me for assuming newgrf authors could figure out that rubber trucks should carry rubber.
19:28:12 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
19:28:21 <Belugas> ccfreak2k: "[15:25] <@peter1138> it is your selection that 'fails'"
19:28:33 <Belugas> when sets override each other, funny things can happen
19:29:45 <Belugas> so that is quite likely the reason of your problem
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19:30:12 <TiberiusTeng> how do multiple newgrf engine sets handle engine overriding ? still let them 'overriding' each other ?
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19:30:26 <peter1138> yeah, chocky goes mad at 9:10
19:31:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> TiberiusTeng: very difficult issue
19:31:59 <TiberiusTeng> I could understand :p
19:32:30 <TiberiusTeng> since the past situation would easily make newgrf authors think they're the "only one" within the game
19:32:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> previously, engine sets just made sure they use all available vehicle slots, so the last one "wins"
19:32:48 <TiberiusTeng> and all those overriding stuff, etc.
19:32:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> then suddenly _someone_ dared to extend the vehicle slots :p
19:33:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> and "break" all newgrf sets :p
19:33:44 <TiberiusTeng> but I once thought that "multiple newgrf engine sets" just isolated all newgrfs into their own 'numbering space'
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19:34:03 <TiberiusTeng> and it won't override/disable existing vehicles ...
19:34:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, but it does not forbid interaction of these vehicles
19:34:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> like you can attach wagons from newgrf A to engines from newgrf B
19:34:55 <TiberiusTeng> understandable, since there's callbacks to determine vehicle compatibilty etc ...
19:35:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> which breaks all sorts of assumptions the newgrf authors made for ShinyNewFeature
19:35:17 <TiberiusTeng> not easy for a 'model railroad' player :p
19:35:48 <TiberiusTeng> just like ... decoration stuff? those new stations are all decorations (oops)
19:36:20 <peter1138> engine overrides work fine with the 'engine pool'
19:37:53 <Belugas> peter1138: no, but i'll save the link for futur use (tonight :))
19:39:36 <peter1138> it's 'punk rock' with the video that the speaking part (iggy pop interview) was taken from
19:40:14 *** Wolf01|AWAY is now known as Wolf01
19:42:55 <Belugas> that was iggy pop??? i was under the impression it was sid vicious or someone like that
19:43:11 <SmoKeyy> i'm a total noob but eager to learn about programming (as soon as i finish with exams at school)
19:43:27 <SmoKeyy> in what language is ttd coded ?
19:43:53 <Bjarni> OpenTTD is coded in C++
19:43:56 <SmoKeyy> and can't the graphics of the game be improved ?
19:44:03 <SmoKeyy> another graph engine.. ?
19:44:22 <peter1138> improved in what way?
19:44:51 <Bjarni> the resolution isn't an issue
19:44:59 <Bjarni> the game works on even big monitors
19:45:15 <SmoKeyy> what about the rail, roads orienting
19:45:20 <SmoKeyy> i bet it's really hard to modify it
19:45:49 <Bjarni> how would it work with more angles of railroad?
19:46:06 <Bjarni> I mean how well would it work together with the tiles we have right now?
19:46:28 <Bjarni> Wolf01: you better compile than complain :D
19:46:32 <SmoKeyy> well it would need more tiles to be implemented no? :P
19:47:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> graphics have pretty much nothing to do with coding
19:47:06 <Bjarni> which means recoding of everything that has anything to do with tiles
19:47:48 <ln> we'll be waiting for SmoKeyy's patch
19:48:00 <Bjarni> so we are talking about say 50k-100k of lines you should check for compatibility with whatever new system you want to implement
19:48:05 <SmoKeyy> you'll have to wait for me to learn codin'
19:48:27 <SmoKeyy> i'm going to start with the basics of C++ in about 1 month
19:48:39 <SmoKeyy> downloaded a ton of books
19:48:46 <Bjarni> so we will have to wait 2 months then
19:49:04 <SmoKeyy> Bjarni why are you so mad?
19:49:10 <ccfreak2k> Enjoy your pointer math.
19:49:26 <SmoKeyy> ccfreak2k i did read a bit through the material, got lost at pointers
19:49:27 <Bjarni> now I'm a mad scientist
19:49:35 <SmoKeyy> Bjarni mad at me i mean
19:49:41 <SmoKeyy> frustrated or stressed
19:49:50 <Bjarni> let's take over the world
19:49:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> eager to take over the world, are we?
19:50:35 <SmoKeyy> i did code a bit for GTA sa-mp in pawno
19:50:46 <Bjarni> I don't get it. Why would I be mad?
19:50:58 <SmoKeyy> Bjarni not mad, sorry my english isn't that good
19:51:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> because you are a scientist :p
19:51:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> scientist => mad
19:51:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> implication easy enough?
19:51:46 <SmoKeyy> well i'm going to get on a server
19:53:26 <Bjarni> I'm a bit upset about one thing though... I have made a piece of code that contains 0x107F instructions.... the problem is that the tiny chip only have room for 0x0FFF instructions >_<
19:53:35 <TiberiusTeng> for me, 8bpp pixel art IS eye candy ;)
19:54:23 <TiberiusTeng> think of the reason that made me left (?) Locomotion
19:54:36 <peter1138> locomotion is 8bpp ;)
19:54:44 <Bjarni> anybody here who wants to help me beat up a stupid compiler that makes too big application code? :)
19:55:28 <Wolf01> ok, compiled ottd, put all the files in the right folder, still don't be able to run it :|
19:55:35 <TiberiusTeng> already a 5-year-old game ... time passed by ...
19:55:43 <TiberiusTeng> Bjarni, which compiler?
19:56:22 <ccfreak2k> Bjarni, sounds like you need some INLINE ASSEMBLY.
19:56:30 <Bjarni> <TiberiusTeng> Bjarni, which compiler? <-- some DOS based 8051 compiler.... it's like 10 years old
19:57:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> that picture looks awfully fake...
19:57:18 <Bjarni> <ccfreak2k> Bjarni, sounds like you need some INLINE ASSEMBLY. <-- yeah.... if the compiler supported it. I will likely have to write functions in ASM files and then make function calls in the C files
19:57:25 <Wolf01> ok, openttd doesn't like to be scattered around the hard disk
19:58:01 <ccfreak2k> Find the complex operations and write them by hand.
19:58:30 <peter1138> Wolf01, depends where you spread it
19:58:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> interestingly enough, my player started "Metallica - Imperial March" when i opened that picture :p
19:58:40 <Bjarni> that's basically what I did spent most of today doing >_<
19:58:58 <Bjarni> hence the way I reduced the size by 0x200
19:59:01 <ln> Eddi|zuHause2: do not underestimate the power of the force
19:59:11 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13566 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_tilelist.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: make AITileList_StationType a bit more friendly, and allow STATION_ANY
20:00:51 <Wolf01> I put the files where I found the ones the debian/ubuntu packet put on my hard disk
20:00:52 <TiberiusTeng> crunching every available bit ... that's why I hate embedded systems! :p
20:01:26 <Bjarni> I don't have memory problems
20:01:38 <Wolf01> but now with all the files on the same directory all works... but the icon in the application menu is become useless
20:01:39 <Bjarni> I just have limited space for the application code itself
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20:06:47 <Bjarni> one thing I really wonder about with this compiler is that I looked though the generated ASM code... and it added "NOP" once in a while.... I really wonder why
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20:08:51 <ln> Bjarni: perhaps aligning code to word boundaries for efficiency, or something?
20:11:30 <Bjarni> I don't see how 4 NOP in a row could be justified as some sort of performance boost
20:11:53 <Bjarni> I wonder what will happen if I just remove them
20:12:19 <SmatZ> Bjarni: to align branch destinations
20:12:21 <SmatZ> if it is any advanced processor
20:12:23 <ln> we would need Tron to answer such questions.
20:12:28 <ccfreak2k> It could just be that the compiler was coded in a profoundly stupid way.
20:12:35 <SmatZ> like, x86 has advantage when loop starts at 16B boundary
20:12:44 <SmatZ> because it fetches instructions in 16B blocks
20:12:58 <Wolf01> mmmhmhmmhm I don't understand one little thing: why the shortcut works only from the ottd directory?
20:13:01 * Bjarni thinks that ccfreak2k is the one closest to the real answer
20:13:02 <SmatZ> x86 = newer processors, like 486+
20:13:51 <ccfreak2k> So, you actually mean i486.
20:13:59 <SmatZ> Bjarni: what processors are ou talking about?
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20:15:30 <Bjarni> <SmatZ> Bjarni: what processors are ou talking about? <-- 8051
20:16:12 <ln> med druesukker / uden farve
20:16:31 <SmatZ> Bjarni: maybe try -falign-functions=0 -falign-labels=0 -falign-loops=0 -falign-jumps=0
20:16:57 <fjb> Ups, ore train with Cartier livery from the Canset has a maxspeed of 255km/h...
20:17:05 <Belugas> ln, j'adore quand tu parles cru et cochon comme ca, ca me retourne tout l'interieur
20:17:14 <ccfreak2k> He stated a while back that it's some 10-year-old compiler.
20:18:04 <Bjarni> it's DOS based so filenames are restricted to no spaces and max 8 chars
20:18:32 <ln> there's no "no spaces" restriction in dos filenames.
20:18:42 <peter1138> fjb: must be an enginepool bug? :p
20:19:27 <SmatZ> ccfreak2k: I reseted my system, I have to browse logs to see history :-x
20:19:44 <Bjarni> <ln> there's no "no spaces" restriction in dos filenames. <-- ok then it's a compiler restriction :P
20:19:54 <Bjarni> and it goes for the path to the files as well
20:20:17 <fjb> peter1138: Ofcourse... :)
20:20:39 <ccfreak2k> IIRC DOS restricts to 8+3.
20:20:40 <fjb> glx: No Windows around. And no working Wine either.
20:21:55 <Wolf01> there's something I can change to be able to scroll a 2048 map without go from one side to the other in 1ms?
20:22:41 <Bjarni> I really loved the compiler today when it decided to add like 0x3500 instructions at the end of my program
20:22:49 <fjb> Ouch, dosbox... Maybe I could find one. But doesn't TTDP need Windows?
20:22:52 <Rubidium> glx: that's exactly what he doesn't want
20:23:02 <Rubidium> fjb: works in dosbox
20:23:02 <Bjarni> mainly consisting of moving a register to Acc
20:23:12 <Bjarni> and doing the same instruction like 15 times in a row
20:23:16 <Rubidium> Wolf01: use the arrow keys maybe?
20:23:22 <Wolf01> glx... be serious, I can't use the mouse to scroll by 20 tiles because it scrolls of 200 tiles
20:23:23 <Rubidium> but it shouldn't scroll that fast
20:23:46 <Wolf01> but I'm used with mouse
20:23:59 <Rubidium> ofcourse it's one of those issues that the developers can't reproduce and thus not fix
20:24:23 <Wolf01> maybe there's something on my mouse settings
20:24:52 <peter1138> Wolf01: zoom out the minimap? oh wait
20:25:05 <fjb> Hm, dosbox... I will try it.
20:25:33 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13567 /branches/noai/ (bin/ai/regression/regression.txt src/ai/api/ai_tilelist.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix: it turns out AIStation::StationType didn't match ::StationType, as it matches (nameless) FACIL_ enum.. which has not the same order as ::StationTYpe.. things can be confusing from time to time :)
20:25:36 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r13568 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_anim.cpp: -Fix (r13564): Windows build asserts where I wouldn't expect it to
20:25:37 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13569 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_station.hpp ai_station.hpp.sq ai_stationlist.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix: for some silly reason STATION_ANY was 0x00, instead of 0x1F, greatly increasing the complexity of bitmask-checks, for no clear reason
20:26:29 <Bjarni> isn't it a bit late for saying day?
20:26:45 <Keith> depends on where you are
20:26:54 <Belugas> it's al a matther of perspective, dear Bjarni
20:27:01 <Wolf01> MAYBE this behavior is because I run ubuntu on the virtual machine and the mouse is emulated
20:27:12 <Bjarni> besides it's not an English custom to say something like that and this channel use English only
20:27:23 <Bjarni> goodday sounds more like Australian
20:27:43 <peter1138> Wolf01: yes it probably is. in that case it probably does not honour the "keep pointer where it is" code
20:27:53 <Bjarni> <Keith> depends on where you are <--- I'm thinking about people in my timezone and in your timezone
20:28:04 <Bjarni> which happens to be the same group of people ;)
20:28:19 <peter1138> so you move it a bit and it keeps going and going...
20:28:34 <Wolf01> I should try on the real ubuntu pc
20:28:36 <Keith> anyway, it is getting dark outside, so I guess you're right
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20:29:46 <Wolf01> I can tell you if I spot any difference the next saturday (28th) because I can't use it until that day :D
20:30:53 <Keith> anyway...do any of you know if the NoAI AI competition business is really hard to get into or not?
20:32:09 <Bjarni> it's not hard to get started looking at it
20:32:52 <Bjarni> and if you think you can code something then it would be even better
20:33:42 <Keith> well I'm not a very experienced coder
20:33:51 <Keith> but I'd love to have a go
20:34:10 <Bjarni> check out the newest svn and start looking
20:34:33 <Bjarni> get an idea of what the code looks like
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20:34:59 <Bjarni> and based on that you could end up figuring out something specific you would like to do
20:36:17 <Keith> I downloaded TortoiseSVN and looked on the server that was shown on openttd.org, but I have to admit I'm rather lost as what I should be looking at on there
20:36:18 <Eddi|zuHause> the NoAI API is described on the wiki
20:36:50 <Eddi|zuHause> check out branches/noai
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20:39:07 <Bjarni> sometimes the solution is so simple that you skip it and try the hard way
20:39:18 <Bjarni> reading a wiki is too trivial XD
20:39:34 <Keith> well I had looked at the wiki, but somehow managed to overlook the "tutorials" section
20:39:46 <Keith> yeah, and I tend to ignore the trivial solution...
20:40:45 <Keith> thanks for the help nevertheless
20:41:52 <Bjarni> we did you a favour and then you owe us one
20:42:01 <Yexo> Keith: if you want more help, join #openttd.noai
20:42:06 <Bjarni> which means a working diff of something useful ;)
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20:43:35 <Keith> sorry, I forgot, English channel, "something for something"
20:44:07 <ccfreak2k> Wouldn't it be smarter for OpenTTD to call your AI main routine every x intervals instead of having the AI function run indefinitely?
20:44:42 <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: it only runs a few steps during each tick
20:44:52 <Eddi|zuHause> and then gets paused
20:44:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and gets continued in the next tick
20:45:33 <ccfreak2k> What defines a "step"?
20:45:54 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: doing any action (DoCommand( or a sleep
20:46:12 <Yexo> but there is a patch that stops ai's every so many squirrel commands, so evena while(1); can't halt the game
20:46:42 <Eddi|zuHause> well, that's a minor detail i have not looked into;)
20:47:07 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the point is, the AI function keeps all local variables alive while it is paused
20:48:40 <Swallow> Question regarding OTTD c++ coding: Is there an easy way to read the displayed name of a station?
20:49:00 <Eddi|zuHause> by the same function that draws it
20:49:16 <Swallow> i looked into it, but couldn't find it
20:49:20 <Eddi|zuHause> station names (like town names) are dynamically calculated
20:49:51 <Swallow> AFAIK its either station->string_id or station->name
20:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> that probably won't work
20:50:53 <Swallow> string_id requires some GetString() and i guess working with params
20:51:05 <Eddi|zuHause> is there any particular reason why you would want this string anyway?
20:52:43 <Eddi|zuHause> to get a hint about string handling, there is a function while creating towns that checks if the generated town name already exists
20:52:50 <Belugas> me->goes(DESTINATION_HOME);
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20:53:46 <Eddi|zuHause> me->hates(COMPUTER_FREEZE);
20:53:50 <Swallow> I think I can live without the string, at least for now :)
20:54:38 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, the string is dynamically calculated
20:54:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it even changes when you change the town name
20:55:11 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you changed the station name manually, then it refers to a custom string
20:55:29 <Eddi|zuHause> which is stored in a pool, i assume
20:57:51 <peter1138> you need to get it via the string system
20:58:08 <Swallow> st->name is only when custom, right?
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20:59:06 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13570 /branches/noai/bin/ai/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
20:59:06 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add [Library CHANGE]: extended pathfinder.road to support tunnels and bridges.
20:59:07 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Note: all current AIs using pathfinder.road will need to update their build-routine to support tunnel/bridges (see wiki), or give tunnel/bridge cost max_cost value (which avoids tunnel/bridge usage)
21:00:57 <Swallow> well, thanks all for your help
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21:19:55 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r13571 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: define channels in struct Colour in different order on LE and BE machines
21:21:26 <peter1138> normally you'd just use a union for that :p
21:21:40 <SmatZ> peter1138: yeah, but gcc<4 failed to compile that
21:22:00 <SmatZ> it failed on definition in palette.h
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21:50:09 <SmoKeyy> how do i make a coal industry produce more coal ?
21:50:31 <SmoKeyy> will making a big station with a lot of trains waiting to get fully loaded all the time work ?
21:50:50 <Prof_Frink> Provide a better than 70% rating and hope.
21:51:32 <SmoKeyy> rating 82 % Excellent
21:52:33 <Prof_Frink> Now wait and hope.
21:52:58 <Prof_Frink> The better-than-70% just means it's more likely to increase than decrease.
21:54:26 <SmoKeyy> it's production went down from 99 tons to 88
21:56:24 <Bjarni> even though the odds are for one thing you can still get an unlikely output
21:56:34 <SmoKeyy> ok it went back to 99 now
21:56:43 <Bjarni> like say I kick a random person in here there is around 1% risk of kicking myself
21:57:15 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: eQualizer was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 1 day, 3 hours, 19 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <eQualizer> Eddi|zuHause3: Thanks, resetengines did help.
21:57:30 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: I have not seen dlunch.
21:57:45 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: I have not seen divoafx.
21:58:16 * Prof_Frink is tempted to kick himself from the channel
21:58:35 <SmatZ> divoafx: now you broke it
21:58:37 *** Prof_Frink was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
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21:58:41 <SmoKeyy> ok now it's back to 88 tons
21:58:51 <SmoKeyy> i have 4 trains on it loading full
21:58:58 <SmatZ> like I am idling at #gcc and #llvm , never said a word
21:59:24 <Bjarni> I only idle in #openttd.notice
21:59:53 <divoafx> Idling make you feel like you are supporting somehow
22:00:08 <Sacro> when i reply people make fun of me :(
22:00:13 <SmatZ> thanks you for your idling divoafx
22:00:34 * Bjarni would prefer better help than idling
22:00:47 <Bjarni> like diff files or donations
22:01:00 <glx> Prof_Frink: you know it works only when I'm here
22:01:22 <divoafx> I'll set up a server some day, bjarni :P
22:01:46 <Bjarni> where is my profit in that?
22:02:03 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: Right after step 3, "???".
22:02:16 <divoafx> I'll name it after you :)
22:02:35 <Sacro> The Late Bjarni Bjarnison Memorial Server?
22:03:20 <Prof_Frink> Sacro: Bjarni "Bjarni" Bjarnison.
22:03:28 <divoafx> 1: Set up server called Bjarni, 2: ???, 3: Profit!
22:04:31 <divoafx> Now if you'll excuse me I've got some idling to do
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22:09:54 <ccfreak2k> The MIDI music sounds different than it used to.
22:10:14 <SmatZ> depends on your synthetizer
22:10:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that is because your synthesizer has different instruments
22:10:45 <ccfreak2k> Well, there's no particular reason why it SHOULD sound different, because it's on the same box in the same operating system with the same drivers.
22:11:09 <ccfreak2k> So I would assume the patches would be the same...
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22:21:05 <Eddi|zuHause> SmoKeyy: you can't expect it to jump to 1000 tonnes overnight
22:21:11 <Bjarni> ccfreak2k: you mean that the midi sounds different from what it used to compared to an earlier version of OpenTTD?
22:21:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a very slow process
22:25:00 <ccfreak2k> Bjarni, I can't say that it's because of OpenTTD (it could be...I don't know_.
22:29:39 <ccfreak2k> There seems to be some redundancy in the ban list.
22:30:26 <SmatZ> it calls for optimisations
22:30:27 <ccfreak2k> Just in case he, you know, gets around the wildcard on his address.
22:30:39 * SmatZ holds himself from optimising the banlist...
22:32:39 <dih> i was checking, because i recalled that kiddo from openttdcoop being banned here too
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23:22:45 <grumbel> I might be interested to help if somebody could guide me around and tell me what format, resolution, etc. is needed
23:30:42 <glx> you should check on the forum
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continue to next day ⏵
