IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-06-06
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00:00:04 <Rubidium> what goes to the bank is south->east given the time it took to transport it south->north->east
00:01:05 <Kiloman> so if the distance from origin -> transfer -> destination is longer than origin -> destination
00:01:23 <Kiloman> then transfer -> destination will run at a loss?
00:01:58 <Rubidium> yes (the vehicle will)
00:02:56 <Rubidium> at a loss from 'best' case ofcourse; the transfer->destination will stay profitable up to the point where the detour becomes really big
00:03:33 <Kiloman> but if it sits in the transfer for too long, I'm eating up my profits and it's worthless by the time it gets there
00:03:40 <SmatZ> if you get more money in transfer credits than for whole yourney, then the last vehicle will show a loss
00:04:03 <SmatZ> it may happen when the transfer station is full of cargo waiting
00:04:15 <SmatZ> because (iirc) the last stored cargo is taken as first
00:04:37 <Kiloman> is it a fifo or a stack?
00:04:39 <Rubidium> it happens pseudo random
00:04:47 <Rubidium> it's a smartish stack
00:05:16 <Rubidium> uhm... smartish *fifo*
00:05:22 <Rubidium> which makes it not fifo
00:06:10 <Kiloman> so if I have transfer stuff that's been out of the origin for 30 days, and local stuff that was created at the depot 15 days ago, which would go first?
00:06:14 <Rubidium> cargo is appended at the end of the list *except* when there is another packet with the same source and time of creation, because then the packets are merged
00:06:19 <Kiloman> I suppose I could just go look at the code
00:06:56 <Kiloman> is creation time when it was spawned at the origin, or when it was picked up?
00:07:48 <Kiloman> BTW, I really like some of the changes in the nightlies
00:10:03 <Kiloman> I kinda miss the simplicity of the old order GUI, it takes a little longer for me to pick stuff off the dropdowns
00:10:29 <Kiloman> but I can see where it's going with the conditionals, depots, etc
00:11:23 <Kiloman> and I miss being able to double-tap 's' to get back to a plain signal
00:11:50 <Kiloman> are there new hotkeys for the rules/signals?
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00:17:03 <glx> there are hotkeys for some of the orders dropdown
00:17:24 <glx> in the FGHJ section of the keyboard
00:17:38 <Kiloman> just the same ones as before, nothing new for the new options?
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00:26:04 <Rubidium> Kiloman: not yet; the GUI/keybindings of that window needs some thought so it's more efficient than it's now
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00:44:38 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r13391 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_town.cpp ai_town.hpp ai_town.hpp.sq): [NoAI] -Add: added AITown.GetNumHouses(), AITown.GetLastMonthProduction(), AITown.GetLastMonthTransported() and AITown.GetMaxProduction()
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01:26:32 <Belugas> and I raise my drink to Pikka, for a very constructive post!
01:26:56 <Belugas> in fact, i'm gonna pour another one...
01:27:14 <Pikka> I'd have one but it's a bit early for me. :P
01:27:44 <Belugas> you wake while i'm about to go sleeping
01:27:54 <Belugas> marvel of the internet!
01:30:13 <Belugas> that is the funniest of all !
01:30:45 <Belugas> i talk about you a lot, glx , to my friends who wonder how that ottd stuff can work out while we are so far away from each other
01:31:10 <Belugas> they can't believe an european can live on our time zone
01:32:11 * Belugas does not feel like working on houses grf variables... let's try a few special effectson bridges instead
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02:22:57 <Belugas> i broke something, it's fixed, but it's not leading me forward
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06:49:27 <Pikka> anyone know offhand how often TTD/OTTD adds inflation?
06:54:45 * Pikka is looking at the inflation normalising thing, going to post an "official" suggestion on the forums.
06:55:36 <Pikka> it's a question of how low you can go before it all gets a bit silly...
06:55:37 * peter1138 has a tiny so far that sets the initial costs to what it would be
06:56:54 <Pikka> that's pretty much all that is required though, is it not? setting the initial costs and payment rates?
07:00:53 <Pikka> although I suppose.. hmm...
07:01:06 <peter1138> could be a problem if it goes too low
07:01:43 <Pikka> I had an idea that we could cap deflation at 1860 levels, and have no inflation before 1860.
07:02:27 <Pikka> (1860 being the year when 20 1920 pounds, the lowest standard base cost, = 1 pound at 5% inflation)
07:10:31 <Pikka> hmm... does it round costs up or does it just lose the decimals?
07:10:40 <Pikka> 20 pounds = 15 pounds on easy. :O
07:11:29 <peter1138> the normal inflation routing has a 'fraction' value
07:11:59 <Pikka> yes. but when it actually comes to charging you money, it just uses the non-fraction, right?
07:12:54 <Pikka> 1866 is the year when $15 in 1920 > $1
07:13:41 <peter1138> it's not that accurate by the way
07:13:47 <peter1138> also depends on the inflation rate
07:15:32 <Pikka> which is the maximum, yes?
07:16:13 <peter1138> hmm, i need to adjust initial loan too
07:16:44 <Pikka> yeah. initial loans of < 100k would be good
07:18:14 <Pikka> okay, at 4% 15 1920 pounds = 1.11 pounds in 1855. sounds okay.
07:18:45 <peter1138> float f = (float)price * pow(1 + (float)_economy.infl_amount / 100 / 12, 12 * (_cur_year - 1920));
07:19:11 <Pikka> that looks a lot like the equation I'm using :)
07:20:19 <peter1138> that's accurate, heh
07:20:24 <peter1138> but the running inflation is not
07:20:42 <Pikka> that's no problem... ballpark is good enough :)
07:22:49 <peter1138> 65536 / 54 / 12, "obviously"
07:26:18 <Pikka> do you think the idea of having no inflation before a particular year is feasable and/or sensible?
07:26:54 <peter1138> we already have no inflation after a certain date
07:27:20 <Rubidium> inflation currently stops after 150-ish game years
07:27:36 <peter1138> i think the long year change buggered that
07:27:39 <peter1138> it's still MAX_YEAR
07:28:05 <peter1138> there are two tests :o
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07:29:03 <Rubidium> if ((_cur_year - _settings_game.game_creation.starting_year) >= (ORIGINAL_MAX_YEAR - ORIGINAL_BASE_YEAR)) return;
07:29:07 <peter1138> stops after 170 years after game start
07:29:11 <peter1138> stops before 500000
07:29:25 <peter1138> if (_settings_game.economy.inflation && _cur_year < MAX_YEAR)
07:29:25 <peter1138> ,...,...AddInflation();
07:30:33 <Rubidium> though it's 5 million years
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07:31:26 <Pikka> so if we're normalising inflation, may want to change that to 170 years after 1920? :)
07:34:58 <TiberiusTeng> peter1138, thanks for your diff file, it really helps
07:35:20 <TiberiusTeng> no I'm really playable in OpenGL, albeit with some glitches and performance issues
07:36:09 <TiberiusTeng> glReadPixels/glDrawPixels and copying between back/fron buffers are really costly ...
07:36:52 <iAN_> good morning every single one!
07:40:07 <Tefad> JE SUIS UNE VACHE MEEEUUUHHH
07:41:24 * TiberiusTeng wonders if I should cleanup New Graphics first
07:43:30 <TiberiusTeng> really wish to see that in trunk too, but the code's a mess I'd admit
07:46:38 <peter1138> Pikka: well, normalisation should be optional, along with things it changes.
07:46:58 <peter1138> i imagine the people who like to start in 2050 won't like it ;)
07:47:07 <peter1138> mind you they probably play with inflation off anyway
07:47:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause3, the global variables that you mentionned is not exactly the same that mb was referring to ;) <- of course not, i tend to have a much more general view on things :p
07:47:59 <Pikka> there are people who like to start in 2050?
07:48:24 <peter1138> they like maglev only, heh
07:49:42 <TiberiusTeng> oh, a naive question: OTTD won't stop players from continue playing after 2050/2090 in single player mode, right?
07:50:10 <peter1138> naïve, if you feel the need to correct incorrectly.
07:50:26 <TiberiusTeng> if I want to play a 'model rail' then I'll cheat to 2050 in the beginning :p
07:50:30 <LA> peter1138: I wasn't correcting
07:50:53 <TiberiusTeng> sorry, actually I really don't know how to type that character
07:50:54 <peter1138> s/correct/spell/g then ;p
07:51:05 <peter1138> TiberiusTeng: not you :)
07:53:11 <TiberiusTeng> ha, picked up OTTD again last week after I know it can load multiple GRF engine sets
07:53:26 <TiberiusTeng> but I don't even started to play it
07:54:00 <TiberiusTeng> but instead drown into these codes and patches =)
07:55:05 <TiberiusTeng> for my opengl thing, profiler shows the load went into nvoglnt.dll
07:55:10 <LA> peter1138: what exactly stops from using extended byte in cost factor? The nfo version could be bumped when all the changes about loading multiple sets get done.. I mean it's quite a big change
07:55:14 <iAN_> It seems to me that this channel is full of coders and patchers and none actually is playing it except me
07:55:35 <TiberiusTeng> maybe the driver decided to do it with software ... sigh :(
07:55:53 <LA> iAN_: I'm playing.. sometimes
07:55:56 <TiberiusTeng> seems it's a good chance to play with NVPerfKit
07:56:37 <Pikka> I am outta here, anyway... later all
07:57:07 <iAN_> Who could explain to me or point me to an URL where in detail is explained how this f$*ng cargo rating is calculated?
07:57:53 <Rubidium> or something like that
07:57:54 <iAN_> I thought I figured out how to increase it (large advertising) but in my new game it just sits at 66/67 percent
07:58:15 <TiberiusTeng> keep your train wait for full loading in the station
07:58:30 <iAN_> all trains are on full load
07:58:50 <iAN_> even that "always" a train is there (two at station at any time, so one is loading at any time)
07:59:41 <LA> and you have about 80% rating yes?
07:59:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> iAN_: advertising is only temporary, it will slowly fall back to normal level
07:59:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> iAN_: a statue adds 10% permanently
08:00:03 <iAN_> even with advertising I can't raise over 69
08:00:14 <iAN_> I bet the trains are not too old!
08:00:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> you get bonus if the vehicle is <2 years old
08:01:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> and advertising will only have an effect if you are within the town's local authority (you can view that with the ? tool)
08:02:13 <iAN_> okay. thanks for the URL. older than two years at least subtracts no malus then
08:02:56 <iAN_> I think my trains max speed is 80kph (hoppers can go 80 max, engine coulg go faster, but I assume 80 is used)
08:03:06 <iAN_> 80/4 = 20 points for speed.
08:03:27 <iAN_> 130 points because cargo is picked up at any time
08:03:43 <iAN_> 40 points because less than 40 cargo is waiting
08:04:09 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause2: 0.7421875
08:04:15 <iAN_> sums up to 190 points. divided by 256 = 74%
08:04:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe your estimation is a little off
08:05:18 <iAN_> so.. If 75% are needed for a month to increase mining/production I have to find a way to "cheat" a bit
08:06:00 <iAN_> I could built a statue in town (+10%)
08:06:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> (Speed (km/h) - 85) / 4
08:06:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> so you get 0 from that one
08:06:19 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause2: 0.6640625
08:06:29 <iAN_> see.. -> that are my 66/67 %
08:06:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> like i said, if you are in local authority zone, get a statue
08:07:16 <iAN_> statue just helps in local authority zone(?)
08:07:37 <iAN_> wiki does not have this requirement listed.
08:07:53 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause3
08:08:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, it might just be the nearest town, not sure
08:11:03 <iAN_> spend 300.000 into one statue
08:11:09 <iAN_> all stations wnt up to 77%
08:17:16 <dih> iAN_: why do you not read wiki.openttd.org?
08:17:40 <dih> some people have actually gone to the strange extreeme to actually document some stuff there
08:17:47 <peter1138> it's not the easiest things to search in
08:18:09 <peter1138> and it's tricky to search when you don't know what you should be searching for
08:19:10 <dih> wiki.openttd.org -> Gameplay Manual
08:19:49 <dih> uh - look! there is a menu on the right hand side of that page
08:20:21 <peter1138> don't argue with me
08:20:25 <dih> wow! industries, towns, economy, TIPS....
08:21:12 <dih> none of those topics say 'my industry is producing so little, what should i do'
08:24:57 <iAN_> dih: maybe those who have written down all those facts should have choosen other headlines.
08:25:12 <LA> iAN_: Well.. Youmay fix it.. It's wiki
08:25:43 <dih> iAN_: yes! all headlines around me are just BAD
08:25:58 <iAN_> Its one side to work/dig into the code and write down the facts which are coded there. Its another when a "player" just wonders why the rating does not go over 66
08:26:00 <dih> you know, if everything around me had a glitch, i'd start thinking if it was not me!
08:26:46 <dih> what of the wiki pages have you read and _NOT_ understood
08:29:20 <dih> if i search for 'station rating' i also get local authority, game mechanics, tips
08:29:55 <LA> hmm.. stewed chicken is pretty good.. mmmmm
08:29:57 <iAN_> game mechanics is point number 11. After 10 pages telling me nothing about station rating at all
08:30:25 <dih> and you give up after entering ONE search term?
08:30:38 <iAN_> yes. I did not intend to read more than the first 3 hits of that search result
08:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> guess what, if you say "increase station rating", it's the top 3
08:30:45 <dih> you cannot even call that searching
08:31:16 <iAN_> which led to the fact that I found _this_ channel for further information
08:32:07 <dih> iAN_: at least now you know what you can do when you have another openttd issue!
08:32:32 <iAN_> yep. Asking you seems a great way to get the needed help very quick
08:33:00 <dih> iAN_: i see now point in helping those who dont read readme's or any other provided documentation
08:33:13 <dih> unless you can understand 'help me how to search the wiki' as help
08:33:58 <dih> and if you consider 'the direct answer' rather than 'how to find the answer myself' help, then i pitty you!
08:35:09 <TiberiusTeng> I just can't resist the tempt to modify gfx.cpp and spritecache.cpp ...
08:35:10 <dih> iAN_: you have officially been RTFM'd
08:36:00 <TiberiusTeng> (it's better for spritecache calling blitter to do some cleanup before they ditch the cached sprite)
08:37:30 <TiberiusTeng> but ahhhh .... my notebook at school don't have GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two ... that really hurts.
08:39:52 <iAN_> dih: How to find information about the trains of the "expansion" sets?
08:40:22 <planetmaker> probably the readme which comes with them... or the related tt-forums thread(s)
08:40:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> in that set's readme
08:40:38 <planetmaker> or the author's website
08:41:14 <dih> iAN_: have you ever had a goog look at what you use?
08:41:24 <dih> the files that may be included?
08:41:42 <dih> "oh - and 'readme.txt' is not for me! that's for developers!"
08:43:17 *** Xeryus|bnc is now known as XeryusTC
08:44:59 <dih> iAN_: and the openttdcoop grfpack includes readme files if the authors asked for them
08:45:16 <dih> and if they are not there, you could use google and search for the name of the grf?
08:45:29 <dih> how does he come up with things like that!
08:46:13 <dih> what do you do when you have issues with ms office?
08:46:25 <iAN_> ok, readme found, read. no information about the prices available. How to get them?
08:46:35 <dih> do you visit irc://irc.live.com/msoffice2003 ?
08:46:52 <planetmaker> build a depot and look :) It depends upon difficulty setting
08:47:20 <dih> search for the name of the grf (google)
08:47:50 <planetmaker> ^easiest is still a short test game with "vehicles don't expire" in the year 2050.
08:48:06 <iAN_> "Somehow" my trains are unbelievabel expensive since I installed the new version and the "grf-pack". I assume that either "one of those hundret grfs" or a "patch-setting" made them expensive
08:48:23 <dih> some grf's bump building cost
08:49:03 <iAN_> I'm using the #openttdcoop NewGrf Package - Version 7.0
08:49:42 <planetmaker> dbsetXL has one of the most expensive engines
08:50:06 <TiberiusTeng> that set have all the docs bundled -- inside each grf's directories.
08:50:09 <dih> you probably also of deflation on, and have been playing for 200 years :-P
08:50:37 <dih> google for 'dbsetxl' gives you at least 3 good hits!
08:50:51 <dih> the entire page has good hits!
08:51:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> there is no "deflation" setting
08:51:50 <dih> wow - does not even count as typo anymore ;-P
08:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> "deflation" is when you poke a hole in a tyre
08:52:22 <peter1138> or when you squash an iron
08:52:48 <iAN_> ok. I'll stop now and go play outside. See you next week
08:52:59 <dih> or when your spcial suite in hl has no power! :-P
09:20:43 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13392 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_town.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: comment fix in AITown::GetLocation
09:21:18 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13393 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_industry.cpp ai_industry.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix [API CHANGE]: return -1 (not 'false') on invalid industry with AIIndustry::NNNTransported()
09:21:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> -1? hardcoded value?!?
09:28:58 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13394 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_abstractlist.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: make sure Doxygen gives a valid link for SorterType
09:36:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> back in 3 days... or something
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10:19:55 * LA wonders if he should write a tutorial on how to make custom scenarios good, essy and fast...
10:20:32 <LA> .. but that depends on if ppl actually know it already or not
10:20:57 <LA> So how would you guys make interesting scenarios, if oyu need to make one?
10:25:28 <Neo_> it should be cool if the 0.6.1 coming out on the iPhone
10:27:22 * planetmaker would appreciate: [12:19] * LA wonders if he should write a tutorial on how to make custom scenarios good, essy and fast...
10:27:52 <LA> planetmaker: That also depends if the scenario I made was good...
10:28:36 <planetmaker> hehe :) We will know much better after the event :)
10:28:59 <LA> then I'll write how exactly I made it
10:29:15 <Neo_> zodttd.com arent doing many updates for Open TTD on the iphone
10:29:16 <planetmaker> make it a blog post, or a wiki entry
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13:37:25 <Mark17> hello, wouldnt it be great if people can go from city a to city b while stopping at city c (to transfer) and to build airports the way you need/want it? simutrans has this (but in most other parts openttd is really better)
13:39:13 <dih> then play simutrans if you miss that feature
13:39:36 <dih> define: build airports the way you need/want
13:39:52 *** planetmaker|away is now known as planetmaker
13:39:56 <Mark17> more locations for airplanes to stop
13:40:19 <Mark17> currently 4 runways max if i am correct
13:42:19 <Mark17> dih: only transfering goods/people different (more like it is going in the reality) should be great if you ask me. for other parts openttd is way better
13:42:27 <glx> not possible because airports use a finite state machine
13:43:30 <dih> was there not once an approach to make custom built airfields, glx?
13:43:35 <nick> can anyone give me a small amount of assistance?
13:43:41 <dih> thought i saw something similar in the forms
13:43:58 <glx> dih: there's newgrf_ports, but FSM will be still present (in newgrf)
13:44:30 <nick> well i have installed openttd on a linux vps i have
13:44:38 <nick> copied all the required files
13:44:51 <nick> and have run the server with the -D switch
13:44:57 <nick> but i cant find openttd.cfg
13:45:03 <nick> its not in /usr/share/games/openttd/
13:45:14 <dih> nick you did not read the readme file, did you!
13:45:22 <nick> and even after copying my cfg from my windows computer to the vps
13:45:36 <nick> it runs but still doesnt use my cfg, i can tell as it isnt binding the ip address
13:45:53 <dih> how many ip's do you have on the vps?
13:46:10 <dih> then you dont want to bind to an ip!
13:46:22 <nick> but i just want it to load my cfg
13:46:41 <dih> if it's not taking the cfg file in ~/.openttd
13:47:00 <dih> you can afaik specify one with -c <path/to/config/file.cfg>
13:47:19 <dih> linux command line options
13:47:23 <nick> openttd -D -c /usr/share/games/openttd/openttd.cfg
13:47:37 <Sacro> the devs are usually drunk
13:47:48 *** Sacro was kicked by DorpsGek (you asked for it)
13:47:58 <Mark17> different airport design is impossible if i understand it corectly, but transfering goods/passengers might be possible however i think (because in reality this is also done really often. like i want to go from amsterdam to new york (i can transfer at london for a cheaper/faster flight))
13:48:04 <dih> and why dont you move your config to ~/.openttd/ ?
13:48:37 <dih> Mark17: just play the game!
13:48:47 <LA> Mark17: hmm.. do you want passenger destinations?
13:48:49 <glx> Mark17: it's possible, but only for one way routes
13:48:52 <dih> passenger destinations afaik did not make it to trunk
13:49:06 <LA> ye, but there is apatch for it :)
13:49:23 <dih> dont make it more complicated for his poor brain LA
13:49:31 <dih> he just had to sort the config file thing
13:49:37 <dih> after _not_ reading the readme file!
13:49:53 <LA> dih, mark17 and nick are not the same persons
13:51:50 <Mark17> i just thought maybe it is a nice option for the future (if not available now with a patch), so you can move people using a bus connection in the city and trains or airplanes for the longer distances
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13:52:04 <Mark17> just like it is in reality when you want to use the public transport
13:52:14 <glx> you can but only in one way
13:52:59 <Mark17> glx: i know, but i want to know if 2-way is possible somehow or maybe an idea for the future
13:53:17 <glx> not yet, maybe one day if someone code the feature
13:54:10 <Mark17> i will start looking in the code soon and when i have a working solution i will make the code public, is that a problem?
13:54:32 <LA> mark17, to make thigns too complicated for you, look at tt-forums, openttd development, passenger destinations patch
13:56:15 <dih> move your config file to ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg
13:56:21 <dih> then you dont need the -c option!
13:56:32 <dih> as stated in the README file
13:56:52 <dih> we have been saying that a few times in the last 50 rows! :-P
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13:58:58 <LA> that was what you were looking for?
13:59:32 <Mark17> Sacro: we dont use that one in iraq ;)
14:00:47 <nick> dih: there is no such openttd directory in ~
14:01:26 <LA> nick /home/nickorwhateverusernameyouvegot/.openttd
14:01:30 <Mark17> nick: look for .openttd
14:01:52 <glx> like most config dir in home
14:02:31 * LA wonders why nick uses Console for file managing
14:03:11 <glx> Vikthor: at least it's ok for snow
14:03:27 <dih> Vikthor: the orange one is better :-P
14:03:35 <Mark17> and only commandline access
14:03:41 <Vikthor> glx, that's not white, that's pink :D
14:03:56 <LA> nick, try 'cd .openttd' then...
14:04:51 <dih> glx: the tank is also good for pig wars!
14:05:03 <dih> nick: ls does not show . directories!
14:05:26 <dih> and if you started openttd before
14:05:33 <dih> it will have created the folder already
14:06:19 <nick> what is the absolute path to that file then
14:06:41 <dih> where ~ = your home directory
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14:19:51 <nick> how do you enable trams ?
14:22:57 <peter1138> you need a tramset, enabled via the newgrf window. i think 0.6.x include one.
14:32:29 <dih> 0.6.x. included a newgrf window or tramset
14:32:42 <dih> i thought no tramsets were included with openttd
14:33:03 <nick> there is a tramset included
14:33:07 <nick> how do i enable it in linux ?
14:33:09 <peter1138> i dunno, i've never installed it :)
14:33:26 <glx> you enable it like other grfs
14:33:31 <nick> one thing that upsets me about openttd :(
14:33:37 <nick> when you build roads(and tramways)
14:33:51 <nick> and you just want a bend, but you end up with crossroads going no where
14:34:37 <peter1138> well you can remove the bits of road you don't want
14:34:50 <peter1138> (using the bulldozer, shortcut 'r')
14:35:01 <planetmaker> nick: I cannot follow you. I can build the tram ways as I desire - though of course sometimes I just click at the wrong place
14:35:59 <nick> do you guys have an official OpenTTD server ?
14:38:22 <Belugas> well... if you consider the machine hosting all the x.openttd.org an official server, then yes :)
14:38:40 <Belugas> but somehow, i doubt it is it what you you meant :P
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14:59:44 <nick> has anyone got experience using the tram set
15:02:38 <Belugas> nick, are you asking that because you have a problem? or just out of curiosity?
15:02:57 <Belugas> i have to confess i tried it once or twice, to get the feeling of it
15:04:27 <peter1138> confessions of a dev!
15:05:16 <Belugas> oh yeah, i did, and more than once !
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15:08:42 <Mark17> what do i wrong? i have the latest nightly build (downloaded 30 min. ago) and i try to patch it with a patch for new passenger destinations
15:08:51 <Mark17> but it is missing a lot off the files
15:08:59 <Mark17> i did download the source
15:09:27 <Touqen> A LOT has changed since that patch was written.
15:10:31 <Gekz> and it was never updated due to fail
15:11:41 <Touqen> You need to use the version of ottd that the patch was written for.
15:13:03 <Mark17> well the patch is a year old and i cannot find a nightly build that is so old (only in 2008)
15:13:35 <Belugas> you need the sources, not a compiled version
15:14:11 <Belugas> the patch will be used to chane the sources of the official version, than, you will need to compile it
15:14:46 <Belugas> i THINK we should not use the word patch EVER when we speak about diffs...
15:15:24 <Mark17> Belugas: the nightly sources is what i did take
15:15:44 <glx> but it's better to use svn if you can
15:15:45 <Mark17> i did also test 2 .patch files
15:15:46 <Belugas> haaa.... well... don't
15:15:53 <Belugas> indeed, as glx pointed out
15:16:26 <Mark17> it requires a password if i want to login to the svn server, but i will try to find it there
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15:29:39 <TiberiusTeng> hope I can finish OpenGL palette lookup/animation tonight
15:29:48 <TiberiusTeng> (23:30 here in Taiwan)
15:30:20 <TiberiusTeng> it suddenly makes 32bpp use 5% cpu, rock solid at 60fps
15:30:46 <peter1138> but the game runs at 33 fps ;)
15:30:47 <Belugas> you are anmating rocks??
15:31:21 <TiberiusTeng> maybe I did something wrong while flipping buffer, or maybe that's Fraps went crazy, who knows ;)
15:31:39 <peter1138> i noticed it was hugely fast on the normal zoom
15:31:44 <peter1138> but incredibly slow when zoomed out
15:31:54 <peter1138> but i'm not exactly experienced in opengl
15:32:02 <peter1138> (no shit, says anyone looking at my old patch)
15:32:03 <TiberiusTeng> here's where I am, notice that text isn't paletted (yet).
15:32:12 <glx> the pink text reminds me peter1138's version
15:33:27 <TiberiusTeng> where zoomed out the world
15:34:53 <peter1138> i blame all those floats i used to crop sprites
15:35:15 <peter1138> have you encountered the thread problem, or are you doing things totally different to my patch?
15:35:40 <TiberiusTeng> no, not actually
15:36:04 <TiberiusTeng> the structure we used are almost the same, though I'd like to do some extra work on textures
15:36:24 <TiberiusTeng> and utilize pixel buffers to improve mem<->card efficiency
15:36:34 <TiberiusTeng> (looks not really need it though)
15:36:49 <TiberiusTeng> I'm working with wiggle (Windows GL)
15:37:30 <TiberiusTeng> and it even preserves framebuffer for me (i.e. I don't need to redraw overwritten places myself)
15:38:45 <peter1138> that was the issue i had
15:38:54 <peter1138> and didn't bother looking into, heh
15:39:34 <TiberiusTeng> and we both didn't scale the texture size to power of to
15:39:52 <TiberiusTeng> which means only GeForce 6100+ and Radeon 9550+ can run it ;)
15:40:01 <TiberiusTeng> (and Intel 915+)
15:40:47 <peter1138> my gf4mx ran it okay
15:42:34 <TiberiusTeng> maybe it didn't claim that extension with opengl but silently supported it (ARB_texture_non_power_of_two)
15:44:03 <TiberiusTeng> anyway, 8-bit palette texture and fragment shaders seems like mutually-exclusive functions, in my lists I don't see a card supporting them both
15:44:15 <TiberiusTeng> which means a large compatibility problem, dammit ..
15:51:43 <stillunknown> You can always cheat and use a palette lookup texture, although i'm not sure how expensive that would be.
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15:53:48 <TiberiusTeng> it would be very expensive on my card
15:54:09 <TiberiusTeng> changing palette means: redraw the bitmap, and re-upload that texture into card
15:55:29 <TiberiusTeng> paletted texture isn't supported on my card, but I can use fragment shader to emulate it, and yes, that's what I'm trying now ...
15:56:12 <peter1138> oh, are they removing 8bpp textures now? fucking card manufacturers...
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15:56:56 <stillunknown> 8 bit textures still exist, but i doubt paletted textures ever existed.
15:58:02 <TiberiusTeng> yes, they exists ...
15:59:52 <TiberiusTeng> FX5200's the last card from NV support it
15:59:55 <TiberiusTeng> ATI never supported it
16:01:52 <stillunknown> Nothing a fragment shader can't solve.
16:03:27 <Ammler> peter1138: your answer yesterday to my question about the override was just "DEAD". :-) Does that mean, you don't like to include more sets there?
16:04:26 <peter1138> you didn't read the GRF IDs
16:06:32 <stillunknown> TiberiusTeng: Just create a 256x1 texture and use that as lookup table from a fragment shader, but i guess you were already doing that?
16:08:40 <stillunknown> It's a very common technique.
16:11:16 <stillunknown> Like when you want YUV to RGB conversion (and not rely on fixed conversion values).
16:13:52 <Ammler> peter1138: ok, I get you now. :-)
16:14:23 <Ammler> but what do you prefer, getting a patch for it or keep it away?
16:14:46 <Ammler> It's afiak the only missing combination
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16:28:49 <peter1138> Ammler: well if you can convince the author of the modification grf to include it, that would be better
16:29:56 <Ammler> is there a special syntax if the source grf is the grf with that sprite?
16:32:20 <Ammler> hmm, usset is gpl, iirc
16:32:28 <Ammler> I could add that sprite self, then.
16:32:52 <Ammler> just need to post it in the forums :-)
16:33:15 <Belugas> don't you think we don't have enough problems already????
16:34:23 <Belugas> you want to modify the usset yourself???
16:34:47 <Belugas> who wrote that adapter?
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16:35:42 <Belugas> ok, have you consulted him?
16:38:29 <Ammler> Belugas: I can make a grf addon, if you do not like it, I was just asking which way you like most...
16:39:26 <Belugas> i have some reserve about modifying someone else's work withouth his consent and redistribute it afterward for sure...
16:39:49 <Ammler> we will include a info.grf in the next GRFPack anyway, so I can add it there...
16:41:17 <stillunknown> Belugas: if the license allows it
16:41:50 <Ammler> USSet is the only official GPL GRF I know... :-)
16:42:06 <Ammler> but also without sources...
16:42:11 <Belugas> still... asking is way more polite. I know. I had to deal with it while i was doing my ttrs version before newhouse...
16:43:08 <Belugas> so even if it says GO AHEAD, i am not convinced it should be butchered
16:43:10 <stillunknown> Would you do that for every piece of software you ever touched (and changed)?
16:43:35 <Ammler> well, I guess, we should wait with asking until the whole engine_pool discussing is further...
16:43:36 <Belugas> 1) i never changed any piece of software
16:43:48 <Belugas> 2) all the binaries that I took stuff from was under permission
16:44:20 <Belugas> 3) all the code that i took and incorporate was known from the author
16:45:12 <stillunknown> Just obey license, and send stuff upstream if you want to be kind.
16:48:31 <Ammler> peter1138: possible nforenum doesn't know Properity 11?
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16:50:10 <frosch123> grf2html doesn't know either :(
16:50:39 <DaleStan> Ammler: Because it ... wasn't properly specced, and I didn't notice the update.
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16:58:56 <lvip> I just started openttd, and all I get is debug information.
17:01:18 <DaleStan> peter1138: What range of IDs is valid for feature 08 prop 11? (NFORenum objects violently if I don't tell it.)
17:01:23 <Ammler> lvip: check the messages from ./configure and you will find some "not found" or similar.
17:02:32 <Ammler> did someone already play USSet and ECS?
17:07:46 <Ammler> ottd grf handling should be like 0.6.1 with engine_pool off?
17:10:39 <glx> that wasn't his question ;)
17:11:49 <glx> and trunk has some more newgrf stuff
17:12:49 <Ammler> glx: nvm, the usset ecs adapter doesn't work with trunk
17:12:54 <DaleStan> And you didn't really answer my question either, glx. I wanted two numbers, not "ignored". I can't tell NFORenum "ignored".
17:13:31 <glx> hmm we can force it to be 0
17:13:38 <frosch123> no, the example has 0 to 3
17:14:04 <frosch123> "ignored" means 0 to 65535
17:14:11 <peter1138> (i.e. any byte value)
17:14:19 <peter1138> then 0..65535 then :)
17:15:08 <glx> even if it has no meaning
17:15:21 <peter1138> no because then you need to write the action each time
17:15:25 <peter1138> 18:09 Ammler> glx: nvm, the usset ecs adapter doesn't work with trunk
17:15:39 <peter1138> ^ should do with multiple engine sets disabled
17:16:09 <Ammler> peter1138: just compared with 0.6.1, it works there
17:19:14 <Ammler> peter1138: I will update svn and try again
17:19:26 <peter1138> well did you read what i wrote?
17:19:45 <DaleStan> Everyone OK with me coding NFORenum to allow any number of IDs, provided <first-id> is zero?
17:20:01 <peter1138> doesn't even matter what first id is
17:21:20 <Ammler> ah, I thought, that's something like a counter
17:21:30 <Ammler> so it could also be 0 for both?
17:24:52 <DaleStan> And that's how you add a new property for feature 08.
17:24:54 <Ammler> lol, I see only one ID anyway in the example, can't read your syntax
17:26:58 <DaleStan> Becasue it's so obvious which changes do what, isn't it? :p (Coding Style and I have come to an agreement. It dies all on its own, and I don't get prosecuted for murder.)
17:28:46 <Ammler> openttd: /home/marcel/bin/ottd/trunk/src/gamelog.cpp:505: void GamelogGRFCompatible(const GRFIdentifier*): Assertion `_gamelog_action_type == GLAT_LOAD' failed.
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17:30:26 * TiberiusTeng pushing my friend to draw a Taiwan Set
17:32:14 <TiberiusTeng> has anyone thought of writing a high-level language/compiler for the NFO thing? :p
17:32:21 * Belugas looks at the implicity of the actions 7/9/d variables implicitely chaining and wonders if it's what Dalestan is talking about, or even remotely related
17:32:36 <TiberiusTeng> counting every command length by hand is a little crazy IMO ...
17:33:12 <DaleStan> TiberiusTeng: That's why I made NFORenum. Because I got very exceedingly tired of doing exactly that.
17:33:16 <glx> Ammler: and I think it's a bug
17:33:19 <Belugas> TiberiusTeng, that is what nforenum is for...
17:34:10 <DaleStan> Also, I then made GRFCodec encode properly regardless of the specified length. (Complain, yes, but still encode properly.)
17:34:28 <TiberiusTeng> yeah, it looks great, but it still reads/writes a pretty low level language
17:36:27 <DaleStan> <TiberiusTeng> has anyone thought of writing a high-level language/compiler for the NFO thing? <-- Yes, anyone has. In fact, just about everyone has. It just always turns out to be way too much work.
17:37:32 <glx> once you understand the nfo struct, it's easy to code
17:39:00 <TiberiusTeng> what's the strange thing like \7GG mean? in 23 * 9 07 88 04 \7GG 44 4D 04 04 01 (from planeset)
17:39:25 <glx> it's explained in the wiki :)
17:40:04 <glx> 09,...\7GG,...GRF ID is or will be active (variable 88 only)
17:40:06 <TiberiusTeng> ah, escaping sequence, found it
17:40:29 <glx> and it's easier to remember these codes than the value they represent
17:42:09 <Belugas> mmh... big noise oustide the office... F1 circus has started, so it seems
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17:58:21 <TiberiusTeng> I have a question about 32bpp PNG sprites
17:58:40 <TiberiusTeng> looks like it got a base sprite (RGBA), and a mask (only M)
17:59:04 <TiberiusTeng> and the mask can/should be treated with good-old GRF palettes?
18:00:40 <TiberiusTeng> ahh, thanks. another stupid question :'(
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18:25:59 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13395 /branches/noai/ (8 files in 2 dirs):
18:25:59 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix [API CHANGE]: Rename AIOrder::GetNumberOfORders to AIOrder::GetOrderCount
18:25:59 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix [API CHANGE]: Rename AITown::GetNumHouses to AITown::GetHouseCount
18:25:59 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Note: this to be more uniform with the naming of the other Count() functions
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19:27:21 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r13396 /trunk/src/gamelog.cpp: -Fix (r13375): assertion failing when changing grfs in game (compatible grfs)
19:27:32 <glx> Ammler: should be ok now ;)
19:27:59 <Ammler> glx: assert or the usset?
19:28:37 <glx> it happened when you 'changed' the grf in a running game I guess
19:28:58 <Ammler> I removed the override grf
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21:45:25 <glx> dih: don't lie on the forum
21:45:56 <Sacro> dih: don't like on your stomach in water
21:47:13 <glx> the connection is active when the password box is open
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21:48:45 <dih> glx: yes, but at that time, the server already has details to the player
21:49:21 <dih> but then i should not be able to send chat, or can i
21:50:12 <Rubidium> just one that has been there for like 4 years
21:50:20 <dih> i updated the post on the forums
21:50:31 <dih> yes, but there was no need to fix it ;-)
21:50:47 <glx> but don't give too much details
21:51:06 <dih> Edit: i posted false info, sorry for that!
21:51:07 <Rubidium> he virtually removed his post
21:51:43 <dih> i will link him to my logs, as i googled for one of the terms, the only hit i got was the same thing happening on one of my old servers
21:53:41 <dih> would 2 checks not be sufficient?
21:53:59 <dih> 1. when chat is sent, does the server have a populated ci
21:54:18 <dih> 2. when the nick is empty, close the connection
21:54:27 <dih> then there should be a nick
21:54:39 <dih> at least when the chat is transmitted
21:54:51 <glx> it just miss a status check
21:55:36 <glx> Rubidium: maybe we should ask coop guys to test your diff intensively
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22:35:42 * dih has a mute clients patch :-P
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23:07:16 <Mido> hey guys, are there any north american servers that anyone can think of? or...basically anything that would get minimal lag from canada.
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