IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-06-07
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00:06:59 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: frosch * r13397 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix: Do not crash when resolving vehicle sprite groups with zero sprites.
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02:53:12 <Sacro> ben_goodger: are you a mod for openttd graphics?
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03:16:54 <Dr_Link> I have the PocketPC version of OpenTTD working, but I need to get scrolling working for the north and south portions of the screen for the edge scrolling plugin. I assume that's in openttd.cfg, but where is openttd.cfg? How do I change this?
03:17:19 <glx> we don't make this version
03:19:17 <Dr_Link> ... it appears to be a simple touchscreen port of OpenTTD.
03:19:26 <Dr_Link> how would I do this on the desktop version?
03:19:32 <Dr_Link> right clicking is not an option, obviously.
03:19:51 <Dr_Link> or, the palm pilot version for those who prefer those.
03:21:02 <Belugas> from what i've heard, it's not a 'simple' port...
03:21:41 <Dr_Link> bpZero, yes, that's where I got it from.
03:21:49 <Dr_Link> Belugas, what do you mean?
03:22:00 <Belugas> to answer your question, the openttd.cfg file should be on the same directory as the program itself, or on the My Document fodler, on a Windows installation
03:22:13 <Belugas> a simple port means there is not mocu required to do to port it
03:22:27 <Belugas> in this case, there has been (from memory) quite a few changes
03:22:30 <Dr_Link> well, I suspected some modification under the thood.
03:23:27 <Dr_Link> Well, Windows Mobile 6 by default doesn't show the extensions, but I see a file labeled "openttd" with no icon, just the default. I suspect this file. Ack, now I need to bluetooth into my device and change this around.
03:24:10 <glx> this setting is available in GUI I think
03:24:28 <Dr_Link> not when your resolution is 320 by 240 and you can't see the whole window
03:24:35 <Dr_Link> that's one major flaw.
03:25:35 <glx> yes that's a problem because the game is designed for 640*480
03:26:21 <glx> though many windows have reworked to make them usable on lower res, but patches settings is not one of them
03:26:42 <Dr_Link> ah well, time to bluetooth.
03:26:53 <Dr_Link> not a problem, I like bluetooth, it's very fun to use for a nerd like me
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03:48:30 <Dr_Link> So, what in openttd.cfg would I change to allow verticle scrolling?
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07:02:30 <TiberiusTeng> I find it very challenging to record palette-animated sprites for redraw in OpenGL blitter :p
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08:39:37 * dih has a server side patch to mute clients :-D
08:40:05 <dih> just needs a little refining
08:40:27 <dih> so i can specify if all, private, team, or public are muted :-P
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08:46:11 <Ammler> Pikka: did you remove a grf on a running game?
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09:10:39 <Kiloman> I got that same error a bunch on my Mac
09:10:53 <Kiloman> seemed to go away if I turned off all the news
09:11:36 <Kiloman> I also occasionally saw news items pop up with nothing in them except a little label that said Undefined or something like that
09:15:08 <Kiloman> It would happen within a minute or two of playing, I'd be glad to grab a dump or something if I knew how
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09:22:26 <Pikka> yeah, I saw one of those too Kiloman... a report with text in it
09:23:18 <Ailure> I seen the string "Shops and offices" coming up on newspaper if you make subsidaries really high
09:23:50 <Ailure> It's kind of amusing and noncensical, and I have a savegame where that still happens
09:26:32 <Ailure> If you manually set the subsider multiplier to a really high value (1000x)
09:26:55 <Ailure> the string "Shops and offices" appears with a small font in the newspaper.
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09:27:10 <Ailure> instead of subsidary related announcments
09:29:40 <dih> grep the source for that sting
09:29:48 <dih> then you know what changes it
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09:39:58 <Alberth> it may also be that an incorrect offset relative to some base-string is used, and "shops and offices" just happens to be at that offset
09:40:42 <Kiloman> yeah I would be on an overflow somewhere
09:41:03 <Ailure> Either way, it dosen't come up in normal gameplay
09:41:28 <Kiloman> what's it take to get a dump file on crashes?
09:42:43 <Prof_Frink> Alberth: No, it's the new way of counting. "double, treble, quadruple, shops and offices"
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09:44:42 <Alberth> Kiloman: ./configure --enable-debug ; make ; cd bin ; ./openttd ; <make it crash>
09:45:58 <Alberth> oh, and you need to set ulimit (ulimit -c). Type 'ulimit -a' to show all settings
09:46:55 <Kiloman> are the nightlies built with debugging enabled or would I have to build my own?
09:47:27 <Kiloman> also, I saw crash.txt mentioned in a few places, what is the deal with that?
09:47:41 <Kiloman> obviously something separate from the core file
09:47:59 <Alberth> no idea, try it (set ulimit -c unlimited, and see what happens when it crashes)
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09:48:47 <Alberth> don't know about crash.txt, where can I find one?
09:51:42 <Kiloman> maybe it's not relevant any more
09:52:48 <Kiloman> or maybe it's a windows thing, I dunno
09:54:11 <Alberth> Looks like a windows thingie, google also seems to point in that direction
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10:37:28 <planetmaker> is there a way to add a patch setting and not break savegame compatibility?
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10:43:53 <Wolf01> planetmaker, yes, why not? if you don't save anything *new* on the map it should be ok, like copy&paste
10:44:46 <planetmaker> the problem I have is adding it to the usual settings struct changes the savgame compatibility
10:45:05 <planetmaker> it is not a client only patch, therefor needs network com
10:45:15 <Kiloman> just out of curiosity, why would you want to do that? slow people down in multiplayer?
10:45:37 <planetmaker> Kiloman: yes. avoid exessive tf, e.g. easy flattening to sealevel
10:45:59 <planetmaker> a scenario usually comes with a certain landscape for a reason
10:46:37 <planetmaker> it's not a huge slowdown though, IMO. Consider it a difficulty setting :)
11:06:38 <Wolf01> ehm... why not simply disable the level land button in mp?
11:07:13 <planetmaker> Wolf01: I don't want to completely disable terraform
11:07:34 <Wolf01> raise and lower should work
11:07:40 <planetmaker> Otherwise it gets really tricky to build tunnels
11:07:55 <planetmaker> Hm... might be an option.
11:08:28 <Wolf01> the only problem: roujin patch which allow to drag the raise and lower land tools
11:08:33 <planetmaker> but the lower or rise land tool allow cascading, if you e.g. increase the height of a mountain the whole side of the mountain
11:09:26 <planetmaker> The point is: I like Roujins extensions, but they can be dangerous on multiplayer servers
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11:10:29 <Wolf01> all dragging tools, station too, should be disallowed on mp, you can build stations with the h/w size buttons
11:11:23 <planetmaker> even so: disabling that should be a patch setting, too :)
11:11:45 <Prof_Frink> Wolf01: *All* dragging tools? Even straight rails?
11:11:59 <planetmaker> It's indeed no problem to make the patch I mentioned above without any introduction of settings.
11:12:05 <SpComb> and require the user to count to ten after building each piece of track
11:12:36 <planetmaker> but I like it to be a bit user friendly and give an admin possibility to change it ingame via rcon
11:12:40 <Prof_Frink> SpComb: Or, with the -xkcd branch, answer a maths question
11:44:10 <Wolf01> Prof_Frink, yeah, back to lay down diagonal tracks with 12312312 clicks :P
11:52:46 <nick> how can i force the server to restart with a scenario at the end of time
11:52:55 <nick> im using -g switch but it restarts with a random map
11:53:19 <nick> also, how can i modifty the tcl autopilot script to work, as now the config file is in a seperate dir to openttd
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11:58:24 <Repentinus> Is there any good example of AI?
11:58:36 <Repentinus> For understanding basics
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12:58:49 <TiberiusTeng> the stupidest thing I did today
12:58:55 <TiberiusTeng> linear-interpolating color indexes ...
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13:28:59 <nick> whats the best value to have autosave set at ?
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13:37:58 <Sacro> nick: yes is a good option
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13:56:46 <SprudL> I have a complaint... ottd is addictive :)
13:59:13 <ooo4tom> why is this a complaint ?
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14:01:19 <TiberiusTeng> yep, palette remap is done.
14:01:41 <TiberiusTeng> and palette animation is partly done ... I just don't have a good way to redraw only those animated sprites.
14:04:36 <peter1138> does it include the nasty jpeg artefacts? :p
14:05:20 <glx> indeed png would be more accurate
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14:10:48 <TiberiusTeng> this->ResetPalette(); MarkWholeScreenDirty(); DrawDirtyBlocks();
14:10:52 <Proof> I'm new to TTD, how long can you play it for? over 2000?
14:11:12 <TiberiusTeng> I know it's not healthy, but even though gfx layer didn't call DrawSprite()s for me
14:12:10 <TiberiusTeng> and since I don't have a way to know how viewports moved, I can't track sprites for redraw either. that makes me headache ...
14:12:19 <TiberiusTeng> but at least it's really playable (and fast) now ;)
14:14:22 <Ailure> B[15:56] <SprudL> I have a complaint... ottd is addictive :)
14:14:22 <Ailure> [15:59] <ooo4tom> why is this a complaint ?
14:14:36 <Ailure> Sounds like we need to have openTTD anomymous
14:15:19 <nick> whats a good autosave setting for a dedicated multiplayer ?
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14:18:51 <nick> does anyone know much about autopilot and could guide me ?
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15:31:37 <nick> can anyone give me some help or advice with my dedicated server ?
15:34:20 <Noldo> it's somewhat hard to know without knowing the problem
15:35:03 <nick> i just want to know whats the best to set sync and autosave to ?
15:35:14 <nick> or if there is an example of a good config file for a dedicated server
15:37:49 <planetmaker> nick: the config is up to your taste.
16:03:41 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13398 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AISign::GetOwner (on request by Finaldeath)
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16:05:15 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r13399 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_tile.cpp ai_tile.hpp ai_tile.hpp.sq): [NoAI] -Add: added AITile::IsWithinTownInfluence (on request by Finaldeath)
16:13:09 <fjb> What is the status of YAPP? I'm getting tired of patching...
16:15:33 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: miham * r13400 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt romanian.txt russian.txt):
16:15:33 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-06-07 18:14:28
16:15:33 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: korean - 8 fixed, 16 changed by leejaeuk5 (24)
16:15:33 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: romanian - 5 fixed, 185 changed by CrystyB (190)
16:15:33 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: russian - 1 changed by Smoky555 (1)
16:16:10 <fjb> Hm, I can't play without it anymore.
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16:24:30 <Proof> what do you suggest, should I start with a scenario, if yes, wich? Or a normal game. I'm still a newbie
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16:27:50 <dih> Proof: how do you usually start games?
16:28:02 <dih> afaik there is a button: new game
16:28:18 <dih> read the wiki (wiki.openttd.org)
16:28:51 <dih> there is no 'how do i start a game'
16:29:08 <dih> if you have questions about specific settings, ask :-P
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16:34:22 <Proof> I was just thinking what's best for beginners?
16:34:35 <Proof> suppose I'll jsut start a new game
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16:53:41 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 21 hours, 37 minutes, and 32 seconds ago: <Bjarni> Prof_Frink Prof_Frink Prof_Frink
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19:41:30 <jorisslob> Is there a special channel for then NoAI build?
19:42:52 <planetmaker> or not that I know
19:42:57 <Ammler> jorisslob: it is: .noai
19:43:13 <Ammler> but I dunno, if it is public
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20:21:38 <planetmaker> what do you think, gilbo, #openttd stands for?
20:21:58 <gilbo> I just though I might be in limbo or something
20:21:59 <Sacro> hey, planetmaker, what's with the extra commas?
20:22:27 <planetmaker> hu? That's how I learnt it at school :)
20:22:46 <planetmaker> maybe it's wrong in English, though
20:22:53 <gilbo> can't believe there are so many ttd fans
20:23:02 <TiberiusTeng> silverx xchat is better under windows IMHO
20:23:09 <TiberiusTeng> and yeah, world wide OTTD ! XD
20:23:48 * TiberiusTeng still hacking OpenGL ... now on FreeType
20:25:02 <hylje> TiberiusTeng: out of curiosity, are you painting ottd on a gl surface or actually doing stuff on a fine-grained way?
20:25:28 <TiberiusTeng> it can't be fine-grained ;)
20:25:39 <TiberiusTeng> provided that ottd's upper structure not changed
20:25:51 <hylje> that distinction could be made
20:25:54 <TiberiusTeng> painting ottd on a gl surface, yes ...
20:26:25 <TiberiusTeng> all sprites as individual textures, basically a Blitter_GL::Draw() call draws a billboard with sprite texture on it
20:26:50 <TiberiusTeng> and using fragment shaders to do palette lookup, palette animation, alpha blending ...
20:27:56 <TiberiusTeng> so the most heavy part of blitting work has moved to video card, IMO ...
20:28:55 <TiberiusTeng> but provided that blitter won't know how sprite moves, how window moves etc, I can't track/optimize those redraw actions.
20:29:10 <TiberiusTeng> just blindly do what gfx.cpp tells me to do :p
20:30:15 <TiberiusTeng> but I think it really need some texture atlas work, since 10000s textures looks scary on gDEBugger ;)
20:37:19 <TiberiusTeng> when you zoom all the way out and right-dragging, you'll feel a obvious delay
20:37:30 <TiberiusTeng> even under 8bpp-optimized blitter
20:37:49 <TiberiusTeng> unfortunately, it's not blitter's fault ... OpenGL do the same
20:38:24 <TiberiusTeng> (the good news is OpenGL blitter will do 32bpp with animation as fast as 8bpp-optimized ;)
20:42:57 <TiberiusTeng> start tracing code from ViewportDrawChk() and look what it do to the huge map, calling draw_tile_proc()'s, Z-sorting all vehicles/buildings ...
20:43:44 <TiberiusTeng> OpenGL blitter can't/won't cure these things, as long as we need other blitters
20:45:04 <frosch123> I guess, when zoomed out, spritesorting is a big task (O(n^2)), though you can hardly see what it sorts.
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20:45:46 <Sacro> I can't get gilbo to download the list of servers from the masterserver, any ideas on how to debug?
20:45:57 <Sacro> using 0.6.1, installer , XP
20:46:32 <gilbo> I am on a lan, so getting internet access from another computer
20:46:40 <gilbo> but never had any problems with other games
20:46:50 <gilbo> tried deactivating my firewall with no effect
20:47:06 <planetmaker> there shouldn't be need for that normally.
20:47:14 <TiberiusTeng> I haven't dig into spritesorting part so I don't have a definitive answer ...
20:47:33 <TiberiusTeng> and my profiling tools isn't working correctly :<
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20:48:06 <frosch123> TiberiusTeng: Just comment it out, it should not matter anyway when zoomed out :p
20:48:26 <TiberiusTeng> that isn't a healthy solution! :p
20:48:52 <TiberiusTeng> and we still need it to sort sprites while closeup
20:49:49 <TiberiusTeng> in a sense, I'm making OTTD gfx subsystem using OpenGL as a dumb (but damn fast) bit-blitter
20:51:44 <nick> when a dedicated server gets to the end date and its starts a new game, will it restart the scenario thats being played if the -g switch is used to run the server
20:52:01 <TiberiusTeng> using the graphics card as a hardware blitter, via OpenGL, to be precise
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20:53:04 <frosch123> using nvidia extensions I guess
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20:56:06 <TiberiusTeng> let's see ... I used ARB_texture_non_power_of_two (lazy), ARB_fragment_program, ARB_multitexture
20:56:30 <peter1138> simple texture blitting doesn't need nvidia extensions :)
20:56:55 <nick> can anyone answer my quesiton?
20:56:55 <nick> when a dedicated server gets to the end date and its starts a new game, will it restart the scenario thats being played if the -g switch is used to run the server
20:57:35 <frosch123> TiberiusTeng: Aren't the usual interger texture nvidia extensions?
20:58:14 <TiberiusTeng> I think it became an ARB extension ;)
20:58:24 <TiberiusTeng> and it's easy solvable, I said I'm just being lazy
20:59:36 <TiberiusTeng> after I fixed the texture size thing, it'll run on many old cards (and my notebook, Intel 855GME)
21:00:14 <TiberiusTeng> but doing color-remapping and palette animation will become very difficult (eh, just forget it)
21:01:25 <frosch123> palette animation is not important, but company colors are used by a lot :)
21:02:07 <gilbo> anybody got any suggestions, I can't get multiplayer to work
21:03:44 <gilbo> when I click on find server nothing comes up on the list
21:03:48 <TiberiusTeng> yeah ... so you need a Radeon 9550 / Geforce 6100 / Intel 915G to 'enjoy' my opengl blitter, at least for now ;)
21:04:08 <gilbo> its not my firewall cause I disabled that and restarted the game
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21:04:13 <planetmaker> gilbo: have you selected internet?
21:04:20 <TiberiusTeng> texture size thing is easy, but rebuilding the texture with new palettes off card is very slow
21:05:17 <planetmaker> and you clicked the button "search servers"?
21:05:27 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
21:05:38 <planetmaker> ^^you need those ports forwarded
21:06:02 <planetmaker> find servers. yes (I don't use English :) )
21:06:09 <gilbo> do I need to go do something to the other computer in my house that hosts the internet?
21:06:35 <Sacro> planetmaker: no you don't
21:06:37 <planetmaker> probably enable port forwarding there of the aforementioned ports
21:06:55 <Sacro> unless he's running a server
21:08:01 <gilbo> do you think the computer hosting the internet could be blocking these ports?
21:08:13 <gilbo> causing this computer not to get send the information?
21:09:01 <planetmaker> dunno. never had that problem. Improbable, I'd say
21:11:07 <gilbo> should I try a different version of openttd?
21:11:12 <gilbo> what version are you all using?
21:12:00 <Sacro> i have lots of versions
21:13:10 <planetmaker> gilbo: I'm playing on #openttdcoop and use those versions, currently the nightly r13374.
21:13:12 <planetmaker> but I've others as well, currently hacking r13400
21:13:51 <gilbo> I'm trying the latest version from openttd.org
21:14:02 <gilbo> I'll maybe try reinstalling with 6.0
21:14:33 <planetmaker> that won't be the problem IMO.
21:17:23 <gilbo> could this be my solution?
21:20:28 <gilbo> me gonna do a reset, try once more and then give up
21:20:54 <gilbo> I might try tomorrow on the other computer and see if it makes any difference
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21:25:35 * TiberiusTeng use depth buffer as color-index buffer, thanks michi_cc ;)
21:39:55 <gilbo> anybody know a working host I can try joining?
21:41:04 <glx> there are many on servers.openttd.org
21:42:09 <gilbo> tried some of them but looks like they aren't working for me
21:42:21 <gilbo> they are all comign up 'server offline'
21:44:07 <glx> then something is blocking in the way
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21:44:41 <glx> querying servers is done via UDP
21:50:06 <gilbo> I have found the problem!!
21:50:26 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13401 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_types.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: note that Money in AIs is always represented in Pounds (requested by Finaldeath)
21:50:27 <gilbo> if I unload internet shield on both computers, it works
21:50:54 <gilbo> looks like the internet shield is causing the problem
21:51:01 <gilbo> how do I configure it now
21:53:56 <gilbo> anybody had experience with the settings of f-secure for openttd?
21:55:17 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13402 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_marine.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: note that WaterDepots are 1x2 in size (which might suprise people)
22:09:44 <nick> when a game restarts, do it restart with the scenario loaded or a random map
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22:14:00 <nick> sacro: when a multiplayer game restarts, do it restart with the scenario loaded or a random map
22:23:29 <Sacro> nick: depends on the server settings
22:25:48 <nick> how do i set it to restart and load a scenario when it reaches the end date ?
22:28:52 <gilbo> how do you communicate with the players in opentd multiplayer?
22:30:12 <Sacro> or shout loudly out the window
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22:57:25 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13403 /branches/noai/ (7 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: wrapper to read the game settings directly without *any* promises on the results being stable in the future when OpenTTD changes the semantics.
23:05:50 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13404 /branches/noai/ (3 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Change [API CHANGE]: AITile::IsBuildable no longer returns 'true' on road, but only on a halve piece of road (as that is auto-removed). This should make this function return less 'true', and more sane results :)
23:06:49 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r13405 /branches/noai/projects/ (openttd_vs80.vcproj openttd_vs90.vcproj): [NoAI] -Fix (r13403): forgot project files
23:08:54 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13406 /branches/noai/ (12 files in 2 dirs):
23:08:54 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Change [API CHANGE]: renamed CompanyIndex to CompanyID and AICompany::ResolveCompanyIndex() to AICompany::ResolveCompanyID(), to be more consistant with the rest of the API
23:08:54 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Change [API CHANGE]: INVALID_COMPANY now has value -1, to be more consistant with the rest of the API
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23:30:54 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13407 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AICompany::IsMine() to ease up owner-checks (no, not the ones to cash in money)
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continue to next day ⏵
