IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-05-26
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00:00:23 <Bjarni> and then you see this you start to wonder about the quality of the translation of this game that was developed in Germany
00:01:08 <dih> my grandparents live in richmond
00:01:16 <Bjarni> Hitler won the battle of Britain?
00:01:37 <Bjarni> dih: I think there is a problem with your translator
00:01:51 <Bjarni> it looks like you ended up saying something off topic
00:02:11 <Sacro> no, it is regarding my link i think
00:02:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> "Für Öffnung sehen Zeiten Plakat, zu reisen Planer." <- precious ;)
00:02:30 <Sacro> Prof_Frink: MORGENBURG HALBMOND!
00:02:48 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: what does it meeeeeeeean D:
00:03:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> Sacro: it is totally rubbish...
00:03:25 <Sacro> For opening times see poster, to travel planner
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00:05:18 <Sacro> damnit, i want sausages now
00:07:21 <Bjarni> gotta go to bed before I can't anymore
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00:08:49 <daspork> So, Ive been playing ottd for a while, I was wondering if there is a winning strategy for city growth?
00:09:59 <daspork> do tell, or point me to a resource if you could.
00:11:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, it's a secret
00:11:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> or alternatively, place 5 bus stations and let the busses circle
00:11:57 <Sacro> i might use that german map for the tt-meet
00:12:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> you'll get hopelessly lost :p
00:12:39 <daspork> while playing I thought I noticed a trend for them to grow when i fed them goods, but now im not sure :)
00:12:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> you are not sure ;)
00:13:15 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: no, i know most of the translations
00:13:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> no really, it does not matter what you transport, only how many stations you service
00:14:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> oh, and arctic towns may need food, and desert towns food and water
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00:31:58 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13256 /trunk/src/ (12 files):
00:31:58 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Codechange: merge the OPTS and PATS chuncks.
00:31:58 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Codechange: split the diff_custom variable.
00:31:58 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Feature: allow changing some of the diff_custom variables via the console in network games.
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00:49:32 <Touqen> nice... I killed intellisense :/
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01:05:08 <Mido> anybody up for some multiplayer?
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01:37:01 <Touqen> I've got alcohol. Anyone care to guess what?
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01:56:13 <Touqen> Anyone of you UKers want to mail me some prawn flavoured crips?
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02:25:40 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: belugas * r13257 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix(r13226): Typo has found its way on the code... Thanks cirdan
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05:58:38 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13258 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Codechange: add support for using (most) of the old patch names in the console.
06:00:51 <Prof_Frink> Sacro: That's what she said.
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06:45:50 <Eddi|zuHause3> i vote for banning HerzogDeXtEr
06:46:51 <daspork> The motion is carried...
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07:00:40 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause3: he doesn't disturb important discussions :-)
07:01:11 <Ammler> good morning people btw.
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07:10:11 <Touqen> Nothing good about it.
07:10:15 <Touqen> It's 3am and I'm beat.
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10:29:13 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13259 /trunk/src/subsidy_gui.cpp: -Fix: Subsidy text could still overflow
10:41:42 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r13260 /trunk/src/terraform_gui.cpp: -Fix: linked terraform toolbar wasn't marked dirty after moving
11:37:05 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13261 /branches/noai/src/road_cmd.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix r11221: one of the many 'syncs' between trunk and NoAI went wrong, leaving towns more powerful than they should be (removing roads where they shouldn't)
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11:44:03 <Mwa> ._. I just spent ?7,374,983 on a single tunnel
11:46:40 <planetmaker> come again, if you spend 378.000.000
11:47:02 <Gekz> you cant put signals on them
11:47:08 <Gekz> and you cant see the train!
11:47:18 <murr4y> we need a tunnel signal patch
11:55:40 <Mwa> murr4y, that would make it all so easy though
11:56:24 <Mwa> Yes, I wouldn't have to make the tunnels come up for air and signal breaks if I could signal them
11:57:03 <murr4y> so you're more free to create nice tracks without ugly hacks
11:57:16 <murr4y> not saying we should have it though :p
11:57:53 <Mwa> In any case cutting a tunnel in half quarters the price
11:58:34 <Mwa> I read a discussion as to why it does
11:59:20 <Mwa> because of how far you have to transport waste soil
12:00:02 <Mwa> I can't remember the whole thing, but the gist was that the longer the tunnel, the more conveyor belts you need
12:02:51 <Gekz> Mwa: you could just build the tunnel in two parts
12:03:08 <Gekz> that would cost less still.
12:03:12 <Gekz> ie, your hypothesis is flawed.
12:03:46 <Mwa> Tunnels generally are done from both ends
12:04:10 <Mwa> But the longer both ends are, the more alignment problems you will run into
12:08:17 <planetmaker> Lasers bend bady, if you have curves.
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13:09:51 <k-man> is there some way i can give myself some more money?
13:10:06 <k-man> i went on this grand expansion and ran out of money
13:10:17 <k-man> and not enough money to build my first train
13:20:12 <Belugas> i forgot my headphones at home
13:20:14 <Gekz> k-man: or, dont expand so stupidly next time
13:20:22 <Gekz> k-man: are you aware you can get a loan.
13:22:10 <k-man> Gekz, yes, but i really did go a bit nuts before i realised i spent all my money
13:22:30 <k-man> what can one do to make a city grow?
13:23:51 <Gekz> I thought it was only mail and food
13:24:31 <Belugas> don't believe a word I just said, k-man
13:25:05 <Belugas> thing is, it depends on the cliamte you are on
13:25:54 <Gekz> I just scared the crap out of myself
13:32:19 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13262 /3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqvm.cpp: [Squirrel] -Fix: silent some warnings by clearing local variable before using
13:37:10 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r13263 /3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqstate.cpp: [Squirrel] -Fix: Squirrel's theory isn't as sound as they hoped..
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13:50:13 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13264 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: yapf_settings.h was not removed from the project files.
13:51:48 <Splatman> Trying to update a patch to trunk but I can't figure out what the replacment for "if (WP(w,def_d).close) delete w;" is (def_d is nolonger defined)
13:52:26 <Roujin> what patch, what file, what line?
13:53:02 <Roujin> and without that knowledge i suspect that WP is the issue
13:53:15 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13265 /branches/noai/ (139 files in 12 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync with trunk r13185:13264.
13:53:21 <Splatman> In the copy_paste.cpp
13:53:41 <Frostregen> download the latest
13:53:46 <Frostregen> i think i removed that already
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13:55:11 <Splatman> I was looking at the end of the thread for updates
13:55:14 <Roujin> Frostregen: your patch file is misnamed
13:55:23 <Roujin> or rather the link to it
13:55:36 <Roujin> it says rev 13314 instead of r13214
13:59:48 <Roujin> <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13265 /branches/noai/ (139 files in 12 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync with trunk r13185:13264. <-- That's nice. Now one can play with the noise system against WrightAI ^_^
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14:07:31 <k-man> will there ever be a way if putting signals in a tunnel?
14:07:47 <k-man> and what about tunnels with bends in them?
14:08:10 <hylje> some work has been done but it's largely stalled AFAIK
14:09:20 <Belugas> k-man, you're asking for a lot, you know that?
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14:10:01 <peter1138> better than demanding :D
14:10:12 <hylje> peter1138! newEverything!
14:10:33 <Belugas> yeah to peter1138, boooo to hylje
14:10:56 <k-man> Belugas, maybe - i was just wondering though
14:13:23 <Belugas> to give you an idea : the map does not have room for that. so you either change the map format (not an easy nor small task) or find a substitute system to indicate signals on underground rails. then, you need to hook in to the signaling system, plus, you have to tell the train controller it should care about signals where it useually didn't care. not to mention the pathfinders too
14:13:31 <Belugas> not saying it's impossible
14:14:19 <Belugas> remember : nothing is magic, nothing is for free
14:14:54 <Belugas> and... we have not yet talked about the benty part of your inquiry...
14:15:17 <Belugas> like : how are you going to indicate you need a bent here and a straigh line there?
14:15:23 <hylje> arbitrary bridges/tunnels would not be too far from rollercoaster tycoon
14:15:46 <Belugas> define arbitrary,please
14:15:53 <planetmaker> Clarke's 3rd law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
14:16:43 <Belugas> a papoo will find jet plane magic
14:17:00 <hylje> arbitrary? well, with the tile-based constraints still in place, one could build stuff up and down along with the usual directions
14:17:06 <planetmaker> Damn, you found the weak spot there :)
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14:17:57 <Digitalfox> Just passed my HTML + CSS exam with 19/20 =0
14:18:10 <Digitalfox> Not bad for one single day of study =0
14:18:48 <Touqen> Which question did you get wrong?
14:19:05 <Digitalfox> Touqen don't know yet :p
14:19:20 <peter1138> that's why he asked
14:19:53 <Digitalfox> Touqen well it may be easy for you but I just had one fucking day of hard study for me, who didn't touch HTML since 2002 and back then we didn't had study CSS..
14:19:56 <Belugas> now, hope you'll pass visual basic th same way :D
14:21:17 <Digitalfox> Belugas I did study visual basic in 99 or 2000..
14:21:52 <Belugas> even longer than HTML-CSS
14:21:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> planetmaker: direct lemma of clarke's law: no technology is sufficiently advanced (yet)
14:22:30 <planetmaker> correction: no human technology to humans we commonly call civilized :)
14:23:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> "we are the only civilised people on this island"
14:23:56 <planetmaker> as far as we know :). The Drake equation has sufficiently many badly constrained parameters :)
14:24:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's a quote from monkey island
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14:50:08 <Roujin> are further code changes to be expected on the (previously patch-)settings ?
14:53:20 <Belugas> my gutts are telling that it should be the case, very much likely :)
14:54:09 <Roujin> I wonder what Rubidium is planning..
14:55:32 <Roujin> will it bring some noticable difference, or is it just internal restructuring like the window system rework..
14:56:05 <Roujin> will there be any more commits that *bang* break all patches out there that have a switch or two ;)
14:58:30 <Belugas> don't we all love those commits :D
15:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> isn't it obvious? it declares a function ":" that spawns two threads that call ":", and then it calls ":"
15:06:09 <SmatZ> I wondered how can smileys cause system to choke/crash
15:06:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> you better have a virtual machine :p
15:08:08 <glx> that doesn't do nothing in msys bash
15:08:32 <glx> sh: `:': not a valid identifier
15:10:38 <SmatZ> hmm I should limit number of processes user can spawn :-/
15:12:55 * SmatZ limited number of processes to 20000
15:14:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> glx: windows is just fucked up :p
15:14:18 <glx> no that's a good thing ;)
15:21:50 <peter1138> limit to 1000 maybe :p
15:22:28 <SmatZ> I limited it to 500, still too much
15:22:40 <SmatZ> or maybe /etc/limits is not used
15:23:55 <SmatZ> smatz@amd64 ~ $ ulimit -u
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16:02:45 <ecke> one small question... "when" will be possible build signals in tunnels and on bridges?
16:03:20 <ecke> i read that it depend on new array
16:03:23 <peter1138> there's no code for it
16:03:29 <peter1138> there is not such thing as a new array
16:03:50 <ecke> and what about array in roller coaster tycoon? :))
16:08:38 <ecke> ok... and is there any way how to bypass ther problem with not enough signals?
16:09:26 <Belugas> ecke, you see, right now, with the way our array works, and with the way tunnels and bridges are coded, it requires a hell of a change to bring signals to bridges/tunnels
16:09:33 <Belugas> not an easy task at all
16:09:45 <Belugas> not enough signals???
16:10:07 <ecke> traffic jams in front of tunnels
16:10:19 <Belugas> build more tunnles :D
16:10:30 <Touqen> build shorter tunnels.
16:10:42 <Prof_Frink> Blow up the mountain, build rails
16:10:42 <Touqen> Through the rockies! Not around them!
16:11:12 <Belugas> or you could build shorter tunnels with a service hole, allowing to place a signal, and than another tunnel and so on
16:11:47 <ecke> ok... but what to do when on the hill is town
16:12:13 <Belugas> indeed , more tunnels
16:12:36 <Prof_Frink> ecke: Kill the town.
16:12:51 <Belugas> as long as it works, who cares how it looks?
16:12:52 <Prof_Frink> Find its central road tile
16:12:58 <Belugas> the game is not real anyway,
16:13:05 <Belugas> and never intended to be
16:13:11 <SmatZ> those people are not real, too
16:13:14 <Prof_Frink> Dynamite and buy the eight squares round it
16:13:21 <Prof_Frink> Wait for the town to die
16:13:25 <ecke> but i d like beautiful landscpae devastated world :D
16:14:20 <ecke> i d like alpine railway with tunnels and bridges... hmmm lovely
16:15:25 <Belugas> round and round the mountain you go?
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16:16:20 <ecke> have you ever been on coastline of Italy? .... tunnels > brifge > tunnels > bridge
16:17:00 <ecke> i want this.. but ... without jams
16:17:45 <Belugas> you might have it one day. Who knows... but not soon, for sure. would take quite a while to do it
16:18:53 <Touqen> Which is easily many years away.
16:22:25 <Prof_Frink> That's when all the NewFeatures! get added.
16:23:38 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13266 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Use SmallVector in GUIList
16:29:47 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Commit by glx :: r11380 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2007-11-04 22:21:46 UTC)
16:29:48 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: -Revert (r11191, r11196): it worked, but broke cargo loading
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16:30:06 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Commit by matthijs :: r1138 /branch/map (18 files) (2004-12-16 18:04:38 UTC)
16:30:07 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: - Converted misc_cmd.c
16:30:08 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: - Rewritten the label system, there is now one piece of code for station
16:30:09 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: labels, signs, checkpoints and town names. Signs are fully functional,
16:30:10 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: stations nearly, towns and checkpoints will have to be adapted when they are
16:30:26 <Belugas> damned you! that is waht i was about to do !
16:31:43 <Prof_Frink> Ah well, you'll have to get r113800
16:32:52 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Invalid arguments for _commit.
16:32:54 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Commit by miham :: r4408 trunk/lang/polish.txt (2006-04-12 21:11:28 UTC)
16:32:55 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: [Language update by miham] Quick fixed polish.txt
16:35:10 <peter1138> 1138 was before my time
16:36:34 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
16:45:00 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r13267 /trunk/src/sortlist_type.h: -Codechange: extend GUIList with a GnomeSort
16:47:05 * dih has not said hi to skidd13 in a long time....
16:47:23 <dih> ah - he's not even online :-S
16:47:25 * Bjarni wonders about waving at dih
16:47:42 <Bjarni> but I can't afford getting caught doing that :s
16:49:14 <Bjarni> the first one in the 2nd row is the waving
16:50:48 <Bjarni> dih: now you made yourself 350 EUR more poor :P
16:51:22 <Bjarni> we don't use that here
16:51:41 <Bjarni> we just declare what we consider to be right
16:51:44 <dih> can people be marked as 'donors' in the tt-forums and on the server list?
16:51:58 <Belugas> In the Court of the Crimson's King
16:52:14 <dih> that was a serious question
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16:52:54 <Bjarni> dih: my question were also serious
16:53:03 <Belugas> another one: are you a 21st Century Schizoid Man?
16:53:35 <dih> sacro is a special something anyway
16:54:24 <Belugas> #neuro-surgeons scream for more
16:54:37 <Belugas> #At paranoias poison door
16:54:47 <Bjarni> <Sacro> #Cats ? <-- that one is empty
16:54:52 <Belugas> #21sf centur schizoid man
16:54:53 <Prof_Frink> # My heart is in my hand- Urgh.
16:55:51 <Bjarni> btw the other day I saw how German acts
16:55:59 <Bjarni> with their state of the art technology
16:56:09 <dih> again, can donators to openttd be marked as such in tt-forums and in the server list ?
16:56:24 <Bjarni> some tourists parked an autocamper on the top of a hill on a parking lot
16:56:38 <Sacro> dih: best asking one of the devs :p
16:56:38 <Bjarni> when they left again they pushed it downhill for like 20 meters before it started
16:56:54 <Bjarni> dih: don't you guys know how to use batteries?
16:56:55 <Hassan> How can I get a newspaper like when it happens in 2050; with all companies on it? Whats the command in multyplayer?
16:57:05 <Hassan> So I can see whos best :)
16:58:03 <dih> [18:56] <dih> again, can donators to openttd be marked as such in tt-forums and in the server list ?
16:58:15 <planetmaker> dih's fight like don quichote against the wind mills of ignorance :)
16:58:21 * dih has the slight feeling of yet again asking the wrong person....
16:58:31 <Hassan> <Hassan> How can I get a newspaper like when it happens in 2050; with all companies on it? Whats the command in multyplayer?
16:58:50 <Belugas> Hassan, i don't get your question at all
16:58:54 <planetmaker> Hassan: use the charts to compare companies
16:58:56 <dih> and no - never will you have all companies on it
16:59:17 <Hassan> Well at the end of a single player game
16:59:23 <Hassan> You get at 2050 a chart
16:59:24 <Belugas> dih, server list has no connection with the forums donator
16:59:33 <Hassan> whit performance rating
16:59:40 <planetmaker> There's no end :)
16:59:43 <Hassan> is such thing avaible in multiplayer?
16:59:46 <dih> Belugas: not donating to the forums, donating to openttd.org
16:59:53 <Prof_Frink> # For if the bomb that drops on you, gets your friends and neighbours too, there'll be nobody left behind to grieve!
17:00:07 <Prof_Frink> # And we will all go together when we go
17:00:26 <Belugas> dih: how can a server be linked to a donation?
17:00:45 <dih> how did i come up with that one
17:01:27 <Prof_Frink> dih: The only thing I can think of is to make "Supporter" badges for sigs
17:01:57 <Belugas> i see no point on having the server list state that
17:02:34 <Belugas> apart from self-glory ? ;)
17:02:35 <Prof_Frink> He don't and he has an @
17:03:10 <dih> sort the server list first my version then by donator then by clients :-P
17:03:21 <planetmaker> Hassan: similar overview is always available. Look at the charts. Go for company achievements(?) -> details
17:03:31 <dih> pm: hassan aint there no more
17:03:41 <Belugas> he's gone, a bit frustrated, i guess
17:03:42 <planetmaker> oh well. Why did I bother? :(
17:05:14 <dih> say hypothetically, a community donated money for each member and server or something like that :-P
17:05:18 * planetmaker probably suffers from a lack of chemical fuel - also called food.
17:05:47 <planetmaker> No, I'll go home. And there I'll have solid state and liquid fuel :)
17:05:50 <Sacro> yes, we have no bananas
17:05:53 <Belugas> no one offered you Bjarni :)
17:06:01 <dih> how does Bjarni drinking beer help planetmaker?
17:06:08 <planetmaker> though my good belgium and Dutch beer is gone since the weekend :)
17:06:26 <Mchl> they can link their digestive system through dev-grid
17:06:27 <dih> get some good german stuff
17:06:31 <Prof_Frink> Have you no Pride?
17:06:39 <Bjarni> <dih> how does Bjarni drinking beer help planetmaker? <-- maybe you wanted us to be drinking buddies
17:06:57 <dih> check when i last hilighted you
17:07:14 <Belugas> dih, i really see it as futile and unnecessary, plus, an addictionnal DB should be created for that purpose. and maintained. and people would complain (they always do anyway) when the new status is not grantred fast enough
17:07:19 <dih> then you will find that though just makes abso-f***ing-lutely no sense
17:07:26 <Belugas> either way, personally, i thing i's not worth it
17:07:34 <Bjarni> [19:06:01] <dih> how does Bjarni drinking beer help planetmaker?
17:07:56 <dih> and then one before that?
17:08:00 <planetmaker> Prof_Frink: I do. I'm consious enough to also allow others to excel
17:08:16 <Bjarni> [18:47:51] <dih> hey hey Bjarni
17:08:26 <dih> look at the time diff, chick
17:08:50 <Prof_Frink> planetmaker: Pass one over here then
17:09:11 * planetmaker hands Prof_Frink a beer
17:09:41 <planetmaker> what you want? Guiness? Erdinger? Duvel? HertogJan? Flensß
17:09:44 <Mchl> may I have some green tea please?
17:09:58 * Bjarni puts up a sign "enjoyment of your own liquor is prohibited in this channel"
17:10:09 <Prof_Frink> planetmaker: I want what I asked for.
17:11:21 <planetmaker> ghasty foreign languages :)
17:30:39 *** XeryusTC is now known as Xeryus|bnc
17:33:22 *** Xeryus|bnc is now known as XeryusTC
17:40:56 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r13268 /branches/noai/src/ (ai/ai.cpp ai/ai.h openttd.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix: kill AIs on game abortion
17:43:24 <Touqen> heheh, he said abortion
17:49:47 <Bjarni> that is when you have a game and don't want it anymore
17:51:20 <dih> i have roller coaster tycoon and dont want it anymore
17:53:50 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r13269 /trunk/src/bridge_gui.cpp:
17:53:50 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Codechange: build bridge window uses GUILists Sort() now
17:53:50 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Cleanup: make some globals part of the build bridge window
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18:17:52 <dih> are newgrf's listed in the newgrf query in the same order that they are loaded in?
18:20:34 <dih> the response of UDP_CLIENT_GET_NEWGRFS
18:22:41 <Ammler> dih: do you sort them?
18:23:09 <Ammler> because the order of your lib isn't the same as the server order
18:23:57 <Ammler> but I like it in alphabetical order more
18:24:30 <dih> yes - but not usefull if someone wants to load the grf's for single player
18:24:50 <Ammler> well, then he would also miss the parameters
18:25:40 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13270 /trunk/src/ (group_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp): -Codechange: There is no need to clear lists in the window constructor
18:26:33 <Ammler> a export function from a save would be more useful
18:27:57 <Ammler> it might be already there, at least a function called saveConfig or so
18:28:25 <Ammler> but I wasn't able to use it .-)
18:29:41 <Ammler> you might be able to modify that so it would work :P
18:31:17 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r13271 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Codechange: groups sorting uses GUILists Sort() now
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18:39:56 <dih> could someone check if there could ever be a situation where a client gets a desync message and the server sais connection lost?
18:42:33 <SmatZ> is it really important?
18:58:17 <Rubidium> dih: technically yes; the client determines whether it desyncs. If it loses the connection after the sync-frame then it knows it has desynced, but the server isn't notified of this (no connection anymore).
18:58:24 <Rubidium> the chance that this happens is near-zero though
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19:27:16 <Ammler> did something change with handling of town names?
19:28:24 <Ammler> so it should still work with 21...
19:31:31 <Ammler> the whole cfg is reorganized
19:31:59 <Ammler> is there a compatibility switch?
19:32:49 <Rubidium> why would you need a compatability switch?
19:33:07 <Ammler> because It seems we can't load our old cfg anymore
19:33:28 <Rubidium> for me it did load the old cfgs
19:33:51 <Belugas> Ammler must have been playing with some patches or something..
19:33:58 <SmatZ> problem may be that old OTTD versions discard new openttd.cfg format
19:34:31 <Rubidium> SmatZ' explanation sounds way more likely
19:34:33 <Ammler> yeah, do we need now different cfg per revision?
19:35:10 <Rubidium> just don't load a new-style CFG in an old-style openttd and then the resulting CFG in a new-style openttd
19:35:22 <Rubidium> as that'd most likely reset the settings
19:36:40 <peter1138> which is quite obvious :)
19:36:57 <peter1138> and if you're messing around with keeping old revisions, you should be using separate config files too
19:38:00 <Ammler> hmm, since 0.5 I only use one cfg
19:38:18 <Ammler> that worked quite well
19:39:37 <planetmaker> hm. Upon restart of a server I was connected to, I got an assertion during re-connect:
19:39:59 <planetmaker> no, just the one I said at #openttdcoop
19:40:24 <SmatZ> this bug should be fixed
19:40:56 <Ammler> why was that change needed?
19:41:52 <planetmaker> I remember that there was a fix, yes. :) I think, you did that :)
19:41:54 <SmatZ> Ammler: to better merge/join patches (of different kind), game settings and difficulty settings
19:42:10 <Rubidium> because I seem to remember some people requesting the ability to change some difficulty settings via the console...
19:42:14 <SmatZ> planetmaker: yeah :) do you get that "executing command from past" (or so) error?
19:43:10 <planetmaker> SmatZ: no. Just /.../src/players.cpp:865: failed assertion `_local_player == PLAYER_SPECTATOR'
19:43:38 <Rubidium> planetmaker: which server?
19:43:48 <planetmaker> #openttdcoop public server
19:45:24 <Roujin> hey SmatZ, you still interested in the drag&draw patch? I kinda read nothing from you since I changed what you suggested.. (making it available only in scedit for now, without usage of CTRL...)
19:45:55 <SmatZ> Roujin: yeah errrr... I will ask
19:46:12 <Roujin> freshly updated it to trunk again today aswell ;)
19:47:48 <Ammler> Rubidium: It is of course better now, it's just because it was that complicated before, we made a webconfigurator, which isn't compatible anymore, the new structure looks really clean, indeed.
19:59:49 <Belugas> yup, can't stop progress
20:00:45 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13272 /branches/noai/src/ (43 files in 2 dirs):
20:00:45 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: strdup all parameter strings coming from Squirrel going into the API after the possible WChar* -> char* conversion and free them after return.
20:00:45 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: signs getting strange names because the FS2OTTD buffer was already overwritten by commands/print attempts of other AIs.
20:05:01 *** sickie88 is now known as SickieAway
20:09:03 <Ammler> SpComb: you need to update your configuration code too, but you might have it easier... :-)
20:18:11 <Ammler> maybe you should use a new name for the cfg
20:18:19 <Ammler> something like openttd7.cfg
20:20:50 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r13273 /trunk/src/ (bridge_gui.cpp core/bitmath_func.hpp): -Fix [FS#2042]: MSVC warnings (again)
20:25:15 <Ammler> it looks like you should 1. backup the cfg
20:26:05 <dih> since when are there that many groups?
20:26:10 <Ammler> then save it with new format and then with old format and overwrite the old sections with the backup and you should still be able to play everything with one cfg
20:26:29 <dih> i only remember [settings] [network] [misc] and something like that
20:27:03 <Ammler> dih: it's very clean and easy now...
20:27:36 <dih> but no = forced after a newgrf line
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20:35:23 <Ammler> if you quit a "new" client, it does delete "old" sections
20:36:15 <Ammler> so, it's not possible to share one cfg for all revisions anymore
20:39:22 <Belugas> one folder and one config for each of your versions
20:46:20 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: richk * r13274 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (482 files in 24 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r12806:13144.
20:50:04 <Ammler> Belugas: no, really not. :-)
20:50:34 <Ammler> why do you look for a cfg in ~/.openttd/ then?
20:51:21 <Bjarni> either that or somebody close to him with a similar name
20:53:13 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: svip was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour, 29 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <svip> Who says which gender they are?
20:53:24 <DorpsGek> Bjarni: svippy was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 1 day, 22 hours, 41 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <svippy> ;-;
20:53:48 <Sacro> IT'S A BEAUTIFUL MORNING
20:54:00 <Bjarni> I think it's the same guy
20:54:12 <Bjarni> at least they live at the same location and uses the same ISP
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20:55:30 <Bjarni> if he shows up then I have something to tell him
20:55:50 <Bjarni> but I'm only telling if he shows up
20:56:07 <Bjarni> I guess I better highlight him then
20:56:23 <Bjarni> svippy: I got something to tell you but I will only tell you if you say anything
20:57:56 <Bjarni> how did that happen???
20:59:12 <Bjarni> there is an American football stuck in a solid door
21:00:32 <Bjarni> a football shaped bullet
21:00:36 <Bjarni> I guess that's possible
21:08:25 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r13275 /trunk/src/sortlist_type.h:
21:08:25 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Fix: sort lists with 2 items, too
21:08:25 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Fix: reset VL_RESORT and resort timer even when no sort was needed
21:25:40 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: maybe you can explain the waving on that page
21:25:48 <Bjarni> I didn't really get why it's fined
21:26:40 <Roujin> Bjarni: you mean the 5th item?
21:27:19 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r13276 /trunk/src/sortlist_type.h: -Codechange: use qsort() for initial sorting of a list for better performance (credits go to skidd13 and peter1138)
21:27:30 <Roujin> to wave like that in front of ones face means to tell the other person that he's not right in his mind
21:27:51 <dih> i vote for a = sign at the end of newgrf config settings that do not have parameters set
21:28:31 <SpComb> does a new OpenTTD version have a different .cfg format or what?
21:28:56 <dih> vehicles, pf, network, stations, blah blah blupp
21:29:00 <SpComb> and still no programatically-readable metainfo for it?
21:29:08 <SpComb> TTDPatch has switches.xml, which is a nice feature
21:29:24 <dih> my granmother has adjustable teeth
21:29:56 <Ammler> SpComb: I thought your app can handle the new format, because you parsed the source
21:30:27 <Ammler> Error: Error(TypeError): iteration over non-sequence at /home/terom/my_ottd/web/web/templates/me_server_config.myt line 42
21:32:08 <SmatZ> night dih, have fun :-)
21:32:08 <SpComb> Ammler: dunno, depends on what's changed, there's some things hardcoded
21:32:31 <Ammler> SpComb: you might be able to trash that now
21:32:55 <Ammler> no custom_diff anymore
21:33:45 <Ammler> the cfg looks now, like you can generate the whole cfg (except the grfs, if dih is right)
21:35:09 <SpComb> default ini libs don't maintain the order of entries
21:38:30 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13277 /trunk/src/ (genworld_gui.cpp openttd.cpp settings.cpp settings_func.h): -Fix: opntitle 'jumping' to the temperate climate when closing the NewGRF settings window.
21:39:10 <Ammler> another big advantage is possibiltiy to change almost everything (except grfs, ;-) ) over console, now.
21:39:39 <Ammler> and the only payment you have to make is, no sharing with other revs anymore.
21:40:19 <Rubidium> read: other revs you're likely not going to use in two weeks anyways ;)
21:40:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> this is weird... i can't find any page properly explaining that hand movement
21:40:59 <SpComb> backwards compatibility is a devlish thing
21:41:14 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13278 /trunk/src/widgets/dropdown.cpp: -Fix: Missing call to FindWindowPlacementAndResize() for drop down lists
21:41:24 <Rubidium> it's backward compatible (in OTTD)
21:41:29 <Rubidium> just not forward compatible
21:42:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> just start the older revisions with -c oldconfig.cfg
21:42:29 <SpComb> hmmk, I guess there's just not really that many third-party tools that interface with OpenTTD
21:42:37 <Sacro> openttd -c config-`openttd -v`.cfg
21:42:43 <Sacro> except that openttd -v fails
21:42:59 <SpComb> (so writing one is a bit painful)
21:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> now that is a stupid thing to do
21:43:37 <Ammler> Rubidium: maybe you could switch off the deleting of old sections, if the new already exists?
21:45:30 <Ammler> hmm, just realizing, if you play with servers, you do not need those sections anyway
21:46:14 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r13279 /trunk/src/sortlist_type.h: -Codechange: simplify condition for terminating loop when reversing list order
21:48:26 <SpComb> anyways, cfg parsing is still irrelevant for me at this stage of development *whistle*
21:50:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> why parse the cfg manually when you can just hook into the ottd code?
21:51:39 <Ammler> SpComb: I thought you already did?
21:52:21 <SpComb> Ammler: I abandoned the old MyOTTD code months ago
21:52:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> link to the functions...
21:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> i thought python could link to any language known to man
21:54:52 <SpComb> and then if the OpenTTD functions change?
21:55:01 <SpComb> I doubt any of the internal OpenTTD code has some kind of official API
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22:01:13 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
22:10:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> SpComb: that problem would still exist with a "switches.xml" file
22:13:24 <SpComb> not if the structure of the switches.xml file is defined
22:13:58 *** [com]buster has joined #openttd
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22:39:52 <ben_goodger> <request target="information" class="offtopic"/>
22:40:17 <Mchl> This channel is not valid XIRC channel!
22:40:34 <Touqen> <response class="denial">DENIED</response>
22:41:03 * Mchl tries to validate markup :P
22:41:15 <ben_goodger> my markup is perfect! :P
22:41:36 <Mchl> where's DTD, I can't validate without it :P
22:41:55 <ben_goodger> Mchl: xml:benchat 0.2
22:42:21 <ben_goodger> anyway, I wonder if anyone could offer some help in MMORPG design; specifically, the question of botproofing an open-source one
22:42:30 <Bjarni> specially the "English only" part
22:42:42 <SpComb> ben_goodger: probably a pretty difficult problem to solve
22:42:53 <ben_goodger> SpComb: indeed...
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22:43:55 <SpComb> and probably pretty impossible to totally solve in a reasonable manner
22:44:28 <SpComb> you'd need to be extremely restrictive as to what information you give to the client, and then validate things like response timing
22:44:28 <ben_goodger> the idea is to release the source for the client to make it potentially cross-platform and cross-arch, but this will of course mean that the protocol is open
22:45:23 <SpComb> dunno, never had to do it myself
22:45:32 * SpComb ponders about writing an OpenTTD-multiplayer-playing bot
22:46:49 <SpComb> only slightly over a month
22:46:53 <ben_goodger> my friend opines that allowing a paid subscription service to be botted would make it unfair and hence unbusinessy
22:46:54 *** KritiK_ is now known as KritiK
22:49:18 <Mchl> SpComb should ponder on multiplaying NoAI
22:49:41 <SpComb> Mchl: nah, needs to be something covert and evil-genius-y
22:50:14 <Mchl> ah... i see... so that maniacal laughs could be added?
22:50:23 <SpComb> ben_goodger: perhaps you should just accept the fact that it's nigh-on impossible to completely rule out bots via protocol design, and try and figure out some behaviour-monitoring-and-human-oversight method?
22:50:50 <ben_goodger> this was deemed to difficult to implement
22:50:57 <ben_goodger> at this point I rolled my eyes theatrically
22:52:31 <SpComb> I wonder how open-source FPSs cope
22:52:55 <ben_goodger> they're not paid subscriptions, though...
22:53:25 <Ammler> SpComb: 1 month and a year :-)
22:53:49 <SpComb> Ammler: on hylje's site?
22:54:55 <SpComb> but consider e.g. automated grind-bots... masses of them that sit around in some remote place and just do the same simple-to-automate task over and over again
22:55:17 <SpComb> presumeably such could be detected via some kind of behaviour analysis?
22:55:22 <ben_goodger> SpComb: that's pretty much the thing
22:55:37 <ben_goodger> it could probably be
22:55:56 <SpComb> try and flag out suspicious activity so that some human operator could investigate?
22:56:35 <SpComb> I don't think it's possible to create a protocol that would stop that kind of activity
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22:57:10 <ben_goodger> well, it would be quite easy with a windows-only closed source thing
22:57:38 <ben_goodger> you just don't publish the protocol, and change it slightly every couple of weeks to screw up reverse engineers
22:58:05 <ben_goodger> the trouble is that I am desperate for this game to run on linux, and to run on linux properly it really does need to be open-source
22:58:09 <SpComb> that's just obfuscation indeed... which is a valid solution, raising the level of effort needed to do that high enough so that people won't
22:59:07 <SpComb> although that does fail as well... they just pay human operators trivial amounts of money to play WoW in 12 hour shifts and grind away :)
22:59:15 <SpComb> or manage to reverse-engineer it
22:59:39 <SpComb> hmm, no wikipedia article on glider
23:00:08 <Roujin> is it known that the AI Debug window isn't redrawn properly?
23:00:26 <SpComb> Q: How does Glider work? A: Glider works a lot like a regular player. It looks at your health, mana, energy, etc. It moves the mouse around and pushes keys on the keyboard. You tell it about your character, where you want to kill things, and what to kill. Then it kills for you, automatically. You can do something else, like eat dinner or go to a movie, and when you return, you'll have a lot more experience and loot.
23:00:53 <SpComb> Q: Can I cheat with Glider? Is it a hack? A: No. It will not show you things that you cannot normally see in the game and it does not control the game other than keystrokes and mouse movements. It's not a teleport hack, speed hack, minimap hack, or anything along those lines.
23:01:00 <Bjarni> <SpComb> although that does fail as well... they just pay human operators trivial amounts of money to play WoW in 12 hour shifts and grind away :) <--- I don't think this job is as great as it sounds
23:01:50 <Bjarni> I saw one suck WoW money farming company on TV once
23:02:26 <Bjarni> The guys working there did nothing but eat whatever was served, play and sleep
23:02:45 <Bjarni> they had a sleeping room with bunk beds in the office building
23:03:38 <Bjarni> while I enjoy playing computer games once in a while I prefer to do it for fun
23:03:45 <Bjarni> and also to do other stuff
23:04:25 <SpComb> Bjarni: well, they only need to do it for a year or two before they have enough money to move back home, get married etc.
23:04:49 <Bjarni> and totally don't want to play computer games anymore :P
23:05:29 <SpComb> I read a new york times article on it once... part of it was about how they play WoW with their own characters at internet cafes during their time off
23:06:41 <Bjarni> maybe they speak Orcish to each other
23:07:13 <glx> Roujin: it uses a timer to redraw
23:07:54 <Bjarni> I wonders about infesting a money farming company with a java virus
23:08:02 <Bjarni> one that will cause the players to do stupid stuff
23:08:18 <Bjarni> I mean after all we are told that there is one for OpenTTD
23:08:35 <Bjarni> but somehow it only affected one computer and it didn't spread
23:09:19 <Roujin> can't it redraw as soon as something was printed?
23:09:49 <Roujin> currently it gets really ugly when there's some output.. part of lines are drawn, where I move my cursor and such...
23:14:49 <Bjarni> <rbeattie> If you were MEANT to understand it, we wouldn't have called it 'code'
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23:50:44 <Roujin> wondered why the rollback isn't working for minutes.. then only saw in the API that it's not yet finished :'(
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