IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-04-22
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00:04:09 <sdtr443w> ok something is odd with my debugger. I have a print statement in yapf's CanEnterNewTile() function that is getting printed, yet a breakpoint in there isn't being reached :(
00:05:14 <sdtr443w> I wonder if I have to disable optimizations or somesuch.
00:05:24 <sdtr443w> It would explain how stepping around is so erratic.
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09:45:09 <Roest> woot paxdest seems to work with current trunk
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10:11:09 <Roest> irc is slow today, maybe a chance to get some work done
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11:38:52 <X> im trying to install openttd on my opensuse 10.3 (x64) machine (server)
11:39:24 <X> actually, it should be "I'm"
11:40:05 <ln> actually it should be x86_64.
11:41:41 <ln> ok, now that we have successfully avoided getting to the point, or the point getting to us, go ahead and describe your problems.
11:42:03 <X> anyways, it wants rpmlib (from the rpm package), but the rpm package I have installed provides librpm
11:42:15 <X> now, this probably isn't the right place to ask for help
11:42:20 <X> since it wasn't packaged by you
11:42:29 <hylje> consider rolling your own (read: compile)
11:42:32 <ln> who was it packaged by, and for what distribution?
11:43:50 <X> just curious, is there no precompiled bunch of files in-a-zip I could download?
11:44:11 <Ammler> X: the packer is not known here
11:44:15 <SpComb> aren't those called "debs" or "rpms"?
11:45:03 <X> true, if they have dependencies
11:45:11 <peter1138> there's no binary tarball, no
11:45:11 <Ammler> X: but the package should work fine, I have installed it too, the i586
11:45:33 * Brianetta doesn't play because he's broken his compiler
11:46:08 <Brianetta> Hopefully the new Ubuntu will fix it. I have libc from the new one, and binutils from the old. All to get my Creative Zen working...
11:46:24 <peter1138> hardy heron includes 0.6.0 anyway :)
11:46:41 <peter1138> as in "apt-get install openttd"
11:46:50 <Brianetta> That's not useful, since I'm so heavily invested in the SVN folder I already have
11:46:53 <X> I started playing with a couple of friends yesterday and we would like to experiment with longer games on a persistent server
11:46:53 <SpComb> but not "Applications -> Games -> OpenTTD" :(
11:47:01 <Ammler> in openSUSE it's zypper in openttd :-)
11:47:36 <X> sadly firefox still loves to freeze when viewing lots of flash
11:47:45 <Tefad> not really its fault i think
11:48:11 <X> it also doesnt seem to like javascripted fade ins and outs
11:48:23 <SpComb> the firefox on the n810 likes to crash at random
11:48:29 <SpComb> e.g. yesterday when loading xkcd.com
11:48:41 <Ammler> I think FF runs better on win then lin
11:48:53 <hylje> SpComb: it became depressed because it realized it couldn't have a soul
11:49:25 <Brianetta> How can it run better?
11:49:38 <Brianetta> I've never seen it do anything sub-optimal on Linux
11:50:40 <SpComb> I've had issues on both
11:51:01 <Brianetta> Can't say I've had any issues with Windows software for years
11:51:39 <SpComb> like when I tried to tank up a large number of pages of reading during a car trip
11:52:08 <SpComb> couldn't restart firefox either as I would loose the pages, so I had to just wait for it to spend half a minute agonizingly changing tabs
11:52:59 <teeg> firefox can remember what you had
11:53:06 <ln> SpComb: "lose" with one 'o'. (English only)
11:53:30 <teeg> I've fixed firefox on windows many a time by brutally killing it from taskmanager because it uses 50% CPU
11:53:52 <Brianetta> ln: Unless he means to lose, as in to loose an arrow...
11:54:05 * Brianetta pictures the pages twanging away
11:54:19 <Brianetta> teeg: Do you have a dual core machine?
11:54:27 <Brianetta> teeg: It wasn't using 50%
11:54:58 <X> so, transport empire is progressing?
11:55:09 <teeg> if it'd been properly multithreaded, it would've used all of both cores
11:55:36 <SpComb> ln: it was a highly sophisticated metaphor for the pages "slipping" out of memory, designed to trick people into correcting my spelling
11:56:10 <Roest> dont have to trick ln into it
11:56:55 * Brianetta looses an arrow at SpComb's escaping pages
11:57:31 <Brianetta> Thwip! thunk-dukkadikkadik
11:57:33 <X> ah... so even if I want to only run a server I need the deluxe stuff
11:57:44 * teeg cries havoc and lets slip the pages of war?
11:57:48 <Brianetta> X: You need the game, yes
11:58:00 <Brianetta> The sprites are essential even if they're not being displayed
11:58:49 <Roest> but then, why would you want to run a server if you never gonna play?
11:59:05 <X> Can I just slap the .GRF files into /usr/share/games/openttd?
11:59:25 <Brianetta> Roest: You might not want to pl,ay *right* *Now*
11:59:48 <Ammler> X, if you like them available for all users, else I would suggest ~/.openttd/data/
11:59:51 <teeg> Roest: I started an ottd server back in 2007
12:00:03 <teeg> it's still running, but it stopped responding a few months ago
12:00:28 * Brianetta runs a server but then kills it when people page him too much
12:00:55 <Brianetta> I don't have the kind of free time I had when I started it up.
12:01:11 <teeg> actually, the most annoying part of running a server for that long a time is when cities mushroom outwards to look like huge circular blobs
12:01:47 <hylje> cities could indeed enjoy some love :-)
12:02:31 <Ammler> feeg: swich off road building by towns and build them self how you like the city grow...
12:02:45 <Roest> teeg: that's why i made that patch, now cities look like smaller circular blobs
12:03:09 <Brianetta> Spacetime's web page took too long to load. Their loss.
12:03:22 <teeg> friend of mine and me did add a patch to limit the population of cities, but switching off road building by towns would work
12:03:30 <Ammler> Brianetta: so your standard is death now?
12:03:40 <Brianetta> Ammler: It's run one 0.6 game so far
12:03:41 <teeg> it took a few seconds at the most here
12:03:50 <Brianetta> but it's currently comatose
12:03:58 <Brianetta> Perhaps after I've finished moving house, etc
12:04:04 <Ammler> it was the best noncoop server around
12:04:06 <Kloopy> So towns favour building next to roads already built around their existing buildings rather than makign new roads?
12:05:14 <Roest> kloopy i'd say yes, i'm about 80% sure
12:05:14 <teeg> hm. turning off roadbuilding almost makes it into a sort of sim city where you can influence how cities grow as well. damn. now I'm getting ideas for that as well :|
12:05:23 <Ammler> Is there an other regular copete server with admin support?
12:05:44 <Brianetta> The community just isn't geared that way
12:05:49 <Brianetta> Admins aren't required
12:05:59 <Brianetta> Those servers which are permanent are also unattended.
12:06:17 <Ammler> thats why I used to play on your server before coop
12:06:28 <Kloopy> Roest: I'd say I'm about the same % sure. But I'd like to know, because then at the start of a game you could build next to a town and build roads right round your station so that your station is in the middle of the city. Also, you then own all the road and can mess up competitors using road vehicles in the city by placing bad one way signs.
12:06:35 <Brianetta> I tried getting an admin team together
12:06:43 <Ammler> and the one from poland or somewhere like that
12:06:50 <Brianetta> I tried getting people to submit scenarios
12:07:16 <Brianetta> Celestar wanted to jointly run his server, but it turned out he wanted me to run his server
12:07:40 <Brianetta> There's no server admin community, so it just doesn't feel worth it.
12:07:54 <Ammler> peter1138: well, the usual ones
12:07:58 <Brianetta> I get no feedback, and I get no satisfaction.
12:09:12 <peter1138> all of them that aren't cooperative then
12:10:23 <Ammler> currently coop servers are the only server, benear Brianetta's standard (was) and dihedral.de with active admin support.
12:10:41 * peter1138 will pop onto his server if necessary
12:10:44 <peter1138> but it's never necessary
12:10:56 <hylje> but interpeter is a dev, not an admin...
12:11:58 <Ammler> if you join a server and see half map terraformed to water level or something like that, its a typical adminless server.
12:12:24 <peter1138> i guess i solve that by having hard to find grfs :p
12:12:31 <X> Aren't higher res sprite replacements being worked on?
12:14:36 <Ammler> X keyword is "32bpp", you will find a lot infos about that in wiki and forums
12:15:10 <X> :) but nothing complete/worthy replacements of the current default ones
12:15:11 <Rubidium> it's only that people still do not realise that 32bpp does NOT mean bigger sprites and 'proper' scaling of vehicles
12:15:38 <Ammler> X: you should take a look on OpenGFX too, maybe.
12:16:00 <Roest> Rubidium: are 32bpp sprites bigger?
12:17:01 <Rubidium> Roest: yes, by about 4 times assuming the GRF codec compresses with exactly the same compression ratio as PNG
12:17:40 <Roest> cool, i guess that allows 5 more zoomlevels
12:17:59 <hylje> 32bpp is 4x the pixel depth to 8bpp
12:18:06 <hylje> the sizes are the same for now
12:18:26 <Rubidium> I'm talking about the file size, not the width/height
12:18:58 <Tefad> how are company colors handled in 32bit png?
12:19:13 <Rubidium> Tefad: read the docs
12:19:41 <Tefad> point me in the right direction
12:19:50 <Rubidium> Ammler: that's with some patch that won't get into trunk in it's current form
12:20:02 <Rubidium> or rather, will never make it into trunk
12:20:42 <Rubidium> so it's: NewGRFs or 32bpp
12:20:49 <Rubidium> make the choice quite easy
12:21:30 <Rubidium> well, it's either 'zoomed in 32bpp' graphics or NewGRF as they cannot work together without glitches
12:22:08 <Tefad> depends on how the engine works
12:22:41 <peter1138> we can zoom in 8bpp graphics too
12:22:52 <Ammler> of course, but somehow, it neat to see the details on the 32bpp Graphics
12:23:01 <Roest> damn that pic looks nice
12:23:05 <Ammler> like the fence on the pic
12:23:45 <peter1138> if i did 8bpp zooming it would not interpolate like that
12:24:22 <Roest> Rubidium: could please take that 'never' statement back, we'll pretend we never heard it :)
12:25:51 <Ammler> Roest: I guess, there will never be enough graphics for that
12:26:12 <Ammler> its a really huge work they did, only for one engine and the waggons.
12:27:04 <peter1138> i'd like a "double size" mode for 8bpp, like windows used to have
12:27:22 <peter1138> i can just do that by using a lower screen resolution though
12:27:39 <Tefad> yeah, but who's going to multitask with weird screen res
12:27:51 <Tefad> or switch res on an LCD
12:28:12 <peter1138> i can't use my laptop's screen at native resolution
12:28:24 <peter1138> because it's 1400x1050 and 15"
12:28:40 <peter1138> i use it at 1024x768
12:28:44 <Roest> i'm getting the impression all that stuff in the graphics sub forum is more less just for fun
12:29:07 <Tefad> you should be able to match the DPI properly
12:29:24 <peter1138> doesn't matter, it's the pixel size itself that causes issues
12:29:39 <Tefad> unless you're specifically talking about raster-based games like ottd here ; )
12:30:09 <Tefad> i am 25, i've used 15.1" screen before at 1600x1200 and thought it was the best thing ever
12:30:22 <peter1138> ahh, a few years yet
12:30:30 <peter1138> i used to use a 17" CRT at 1600x1200, yes
12:30:40 <Tefad> CRTs are too fuzzy for that : \
12:30:42 <peter1138> lucky... your eyes will get better
12:30:54 <Tefad> my lenses will just harden
12:31:47 <Tefad> also analog doesn't really have decent bandwidth for 1600x1200 at proper refresh rates
12:31:55 <Tefad> artifacts show up, like ghosting
12:32:38 <Tefad> with 1280x1024 85Hz i see some ghosting and other problems
12:33:03 <Rubidium> just use a 1920x1200 LCD ;)
12:33:18 <Brianetta> Without glasses, no monitor is or can be clear, no matter how big, small, near or far.
12:33:28 <Tefad> i can't stand modern LCDs
12:33:33 <Tefad> they flicker too much : \
12:33:59 <Tefad> i'm tired of people acting shocked when i say this
12:34:04 <teeg> I only see flickering when it's cold
12:34:16 <Tefad> that's the tube probably, different part
12:34:21 <Ammler> well, if you set refresh rate over 60Hz
12:34:34 <teeg> LCDs don't do >60hz do they?
12:34:38 <Tefad> i'm not talking input signal refresh rates
12:35:04 <teeg> I guess you're one of those who see the difference between 25hz film and 50hz film
12:35:28 <Tefad> no idea what you just said
12:35:42 <Tefad> film runs at 24fps, and is usually played back with double frames for 48fps
12:36:31 <teeg> ah, I thought it was 25, but okay. a friend of mine claims he sees the difference in smoothness between 25/50/100fps film (his words on the numbers)
12:37:13 <teeg> and he also claims he can see his LCD flickering from time to time, whereas I can't for the life of me see it when he claims he's seeing it
12:37:37 <Tefad> i'm not entirely correct
12:37:41 <peter1138> Tefad: it's not refresh, it's dithering
12:37:55 <Tefad> it's the inversion pattern of the LCD itself
12:38:00 <Tefad> LCD pixels do not run on DC
12:38:13 <Tefad> their voltage has to be flipped or they get destroyed
12:38:53 <Tefad> inversion techniques: alternate line, double alternate line, alternate pixel, alternate sub-pixel, full frame.
12:39:09 <peter1138> flicker is usually something you spot in your peripheral vision
12:39:16 <Tefad> the altnerate line looks like interlacing : D
12:39:38 <peter1138> Tefad: hmm, i think i see that on some phone screens... although that may not LCDs
12:39:38 <Tefad> which is really annoying when i was younger, i kept telling people their screens were interlaced when they were LCDs. they thought i was nuts.
12:39:54 <Tefad> yup, it's the inversion pattern you're noticing
12:40:08 <peter1138> crappy nokias do it
12:40:19 <peter1138> but my crappy xda doesn't
12:40:22 <Tefad> i've yet to see a modern phone without LCD
12:40:30 <Tefad> early phones had segment LED screens for great fun
12:40:52 <Tefad> don't think OLED has hit cellphones yet, though i could be mistaken.
12:41:17 <Tefad> some phones LCDs are oriented sideways
12:41:30 <Tefad> vertical bar interlace is weird to look at
12:41:50 <Tefad> anyway, my comment about film being 48fps isn't quite right
12:42:08 <Tefad> for whatever reason, they flash the flim twice without advancing it
12:42:30 <Tefad> somehow this is better than flashing it for a long time with short flickers.
12:42:33 <peter1138> to reduce flicker...
12:42:57 <peter1138> yes, it keeps everything simpler, heh
12:43:17 <Tefad> they have to use brighter bulbs
12:43:35 <Tefad> whatever, this technology is going the way of the dodos soon anyway
12:44:20 <Tefad> it'll be a while before digital film catches up to 70mm quality though
12:45:26 <Rubidium> Tefad: is that about 7680x4320 pixels?
12:46:10 <Tefad> 33Mpixels is what you described
12:46:36 <teeg> I believe there are digital cameras which do 25-35mpixels already
12:46:44 <teeg> (but they're damned expensive)
12:47:09 <Tefad> i know some films are being shot at "4K"
12:47:10 <teeg> oh wait. you're talking motion. nevermind.
12:49:12 <Tefad> i think 4K touches on 35mm quality
12:49:57 <Tefad> also analog film is apparently logarithmic, while CCDs are linear (light response)
12:50:04 <Tefad> no. the "K" stands for width
12:50:18 <Tefad> linear instead of surface
12:50:19 * Rubidium wonders what 4K means ;)
12:50:28 <Tefad> it's even referenced in that link you gave me.
12:50:36 <Rubidium> is it 4096, 3656 or 3996
12:51:07 <Tefad> but 4K is current standard
12:51:13 <Tefad> 2K is older digital standard
12:51:17 <Tefad> it's very similar to HDTV
12:51:54 <peter1138> "Just but an idea, but anyone ever thought of subways in OTTD?"
12:53:03 <teeg> I told one of my friends about my rewrite of ottd, and the first thing he thought of was subways, bendy tunnels, stoplights on bridges etc
12:53:58 <teeg> all valid features which I want to see in ottd myself, but I'm guessing making a subway mode would be slightly annoying. :P
12:54:07 <Roest> peter1138: only 273 posts containing the word subways, it might not have been asked before
12:54:14 <Celestar> teeg: it's not. I made one and it worked quite well
12:54:27 <Celestar> teeg: the underlying game mechanics ... that's another question :)
12:55:09 <teeg> is that patch publically available? I might try to look at it when I get the new core fleshed out a bit more
12:56:59 <Celestar> just check out the latest "branches/map" :)
12:57:10 <Celestar> I think it's in there
12:57:51 <teeg> okay. it would be fun if it could be done
13:01:08 <peter1138> smatz has a 3d map patch
13:03:44 <teeg> heh, that reminds me of the guys who "patched" ottd to allow more than 15 (or 16 depending on how you look at it) height levels for the tiles. it's no wonder they got weird results when they exceeded level 15, given that tiles only allow for 3 bits for height, the rest is type.
13:06:18 <Roest> but then i'd wonder how they get to 15 with 3 bits already
13:06:48 <peter1138> indeed, it's 4 bits
13:07:58 <teeg> er. duh. I remembered the comment about type being bit 4-7. of course that comment starts from bit #0 I take it
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13:08:50 <Roest> peter1138: can you give me a hand with what you said yesterday? my crappy programming skills failed so horribly i just used svn revert and never looked at it again
13:12:51 <teeg> yay. finally nothing more to do in the ticketing system. I can finally do more ttd-work.
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13:38:12 <Belugas> [08:53] <teeg> all valid features which I want to see in ottd myself, but I'm guessing making a subway mode would be slightly annoying. :P <--- to say the least... A lot wold need to be done before coming to that point
13:39:25 <teeg> which is why I'm not going to touch it with a 10' pole yet.
13:39:56 <dragonhorseboy> belugas yeah opnettd doesn't even have any 'underground construction' mode unlike Rollercoaster Tycoon so good luck :p
13:40:14 * dragonhorseboy *does* own RCT and one expansion pack for it (Corkscrew Follies I think it was)
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13:41:23 <dragonhorseboy> locomotion? does it actually have underground mode?
13:41:34 <teeg> heh. locomotion was weird. bad pathfinding code and I really did not like the UI for laying tracks/roads etc.
13:41:58 <dragonhorseboy> teeg...you want know what I think the real problem was
13:41:59 <mrfrenzy> what's the fun of building a railway when you can
13:42:04 <mrfrenzy> 't see the trais running?
13:42:38 <dragonhorseboy> rollercoaster tycoon? sure having to lay each tile manually was fine since almost all the times it was always curving or the so in some way ... but try reuse the same gui for a vehicle tycoon game? ughh had someone been drinking too much?
13:42:43 <dragonhorseboy> you know what I mean there teeg?
13:42:48 <Belugas> dragonhorseboy, who said that we want it? I find it strange this desire, this craving, this aboslute NEED to have everything that other games have.
13:43:49 <dragonhorseboy> mrfrenzy...here's one paluseable hint: the trains are above ground but near major cities they're gone from view being underground heading to nearby station underneath the city :)
13:44:46 <Gekz> Belugas: erm, not many other games have subways
13:44:55 <Gekz> I'd like to have subways in one form or another in openttd
13:45:01 <dragonhorseboy> but for me...since I never really cared much for cities (always rather like small towns for as long as there's enough buildings to accept goods) I wouldn't want to bother with more passenger-only features
13:45:20 <teeg> Belugas: if if the cities had been bigger than they are now, and you wanted to make an inner-city system with proper passenger AI so each city would be its own ecosystem, then it could be a nice feature, but to be honest I believe trams solve that problem, along with the new bus stations
13:45:55 <teeg> (and yes, inner-city system with proper passenger ai would eat a lot of cpu, so do not take me wrong, I'm not saying that would be a good direction for ottd. :P)
13:46:27 <Brianetta> Trams can't run on standard gauge rail, which is a shame. Most modern trams can.
13:46:34 <dragonhorseboy> gekz...yeah I kinda have to agree..I've tried many of the downloadable different ones and still don't see one that quite works for me yet
13:46:48 <Gekz> trams in general are old hat.
13:47:05 <Gekz> you get to 2050 yet you lack the ability to stick a train underground?
13:47:08 <mrfrenzy> dragonhorseboy: yeah that's true, subway is only really used in cities
13:47:21 <Gekz> openttd made cities grow massively
13:47:25 <teeg> but I CAN see an undergrond mode for making tunnels would be beneficial, since there are times when I'd just like to offset the tunnel one block without having to terraform. or just do a 90 degree turn
13:47:43 <dragonhorseboy> mrfrenzy...and then there are only a selective few major ones that don't even have any above-ground routes at all (the one in Montreal comes to mind)
13:48:09 <Kloopy> Australia doesn't need one, it's so big.
13:48:12 <Gekz> just various small tunnels
13:48:20 <Gekz> and its not densely populated
13:48:23 <dragonhorseboy> gekz...at least thankgod the newer openttd has option to cull that absurb city growth :p
13:48:34 <dragonhorseboy> I have it set to 'slow' and '1 in 4 cities' :)
13:48:43 <Gekz> I think openttd needs to have an option called "Shut the goddamn towns up"
13:48:48 <Gekz> so you can destroy what you want
13:48:51 <dragonhorseboy> not quite the same as ttdp but at least finally its more of my type
13:48:53 <Gekz> without them bitching every 5 minutes
13:49:21 <Gekz> I just want to be able to destroy 6 buildings without the bitches talking
13:49:31 <Gekz> or at least be able to purchase a building permit from the town
13:49:36 <Gekz> for $2,000,000 or something
13:49:41 <Gekz> for a month of unlimited destruction
13:49:55 <Gekz> with a limit of dropping the population below 500
13:50:55 <Roest> it'd probably already help to remove the fail chance from "bribe the local authorities"
13:51:12 <teeg> personally I'd like to be able to structure the city so that busses or trams moved people around in town, subways could go to misc train stations or airplane stations, and trains and planes would take care of intercontinental travel
13:51:32 <dragonhorseboy> either way gekz...
13:51:41 <dragonhorseboy> the reason I haven't bothered with tram grfs is for two reasons...
13:52:30 <dragonhorseboy> 1. nothing with good passenger capacity + top speed to go with it 2. where's at least some goods/food capacity in some of the grfs? (more freight types optional)
13:53:03 <Gekz> dragonhorseboy: theres a modern tram grf
13:53:03 <dragonhorseboy> eg 4LV already can give me a 90+km/h bus with more than 70 passenger capacity in it.. but nearby no trams match that yet
13:53:08 <Gekz> could do with some work, but its pretty good
13:53:33 <dragonhorseboy> (neverminding 120km/h with 120 [or was it 130?] passenger capacity :p)
13:53:36 <peter1138> 4LV's stats do not suit the game very well
13:53:44 <dragonhorseboy> peter...well they suit me well tho
13:53:54 <peter1138> otoh, tram sets seem to have incredibly low capacity and speed
13:54:42 <dragonhorseboy> peter..I mean..whats the point of trying to stuff more than ten 27-passenger trams into one single stop when just two 120-passenger buses do it much cheaper ;)
13:54:53 <dragonhorseboy> peter...yeah you're right about that
13:55:01 <peter1138> that's why multistop exists
13:55:10 <dragonhorseboy> peter...there isn't much space for extra stops ^-^
13:55:19 <peter1138> and that's why 4LV does not suit the game... the capacities are *too high*
13:55:31 <peter1138> there's always space for drivethrough stops
13:55:45 <teeg> cities are a bit small for proper trams I think, until they become huge circular blobs that is... or you make them yourself
13:55:56 <dragonhorseboy> peter...well several of my towns always have more than 200 passengers waiting at certain barely-fitted-in-there single station stop
13:56:11 <Gekz> teeg: or you nuke parts of the town
13:56:15 <Gekz> teeg: do you like money?
13:56:53 <teeg> Gekz: personally? of course. in-game? sure, because it makes building easier, but other than that, my pet project is making a transportation system which works well more than anything else
13:57:08 <dragonhorseboy> (I should mention that I many times end up with towns built right on long slopes or around irregular shaped coastlines so there isn't even much space to get rails plowed in hence the dependancy on rv's
13:57:18 <Gekz> teeg: I'll give you $5 to make the patch I ranted about
13:57:24 <dragonhorseboy> gekz...hehehe :)
13:57:52 <teeg> Gekz: hehe, I'm busy working on OOifying everything (which'll cause everyone to yell at me, but that's another matter :P)
13:57:55 <Gekz> I just blew into a fan for 50 secdonds
13:58:06 <Gekz> I've been watching you since you got here
13:58:17 <Gekz> Roest: the patch to allow you to purchase a building contract
13:59:22 <Roest> you know, that's probably easy to do
14:01:33 <Ammler> dragonhorseboy: you can buguse the hiroshima tramset
14:01:47 <Ammler> it has a tram with 450 pass cap
14:02:06 <dragonhorseboy> heh isn't that because its a 3-car one? ;)
14:02:16 <dragonhorseboy> (or was it 4? been some time I last looked at the website for that)
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14:02:44 <Ammler> 3, it was meant to have 150 for the whole tram, not per part of it.
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14:03:28 <Ammler> its something called mit Dortmund, iirc
14:03:31 <dragonhorseboy> hmm well what speed was it again if you recall?
14:04:03 <Ammler> not that fast but that shouldn't matter :-)
14:04:33 <dragonhorseboy> ammler...heh well at least top 70km/h I hope? :p
14:05:52 <Ammler> possible from 60 upwards
14:06:01 <dragonhorseboy> hmm sounds fair
14:07:20 <Ammler> strange, there is another aTram (Greenmover) which hasn't that bug
14:08:05 <dragonhorseboy> ammler...you want to know what tram I'll seriously like to finally see coded?
14:08:44 <Ammler> isn't it already in moderntrams?
14:09:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> <Brianetta> Trams can't run on standard gauge rail, which is a shame. Most modern trams can. <- the Nordhausen tram can use the narrow-gauge rails of the Harzquerbahn (with a secondary diesel engine)
14:09:53 <Ammler> same otherside, ng trains should be able to use tramtracks. :-)
14:10:34 <Celestar> I think Munichs tram runs on 1435mm
14:11:23 <dragonhorseboy> and I'm serious
14:11:31 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: not in ttd :p
14:12:11 <dragonhorseboy> if I had any real clue on how to make new grf files I would have had made my own private grf for coaltram.grf but since I don't .. well... *sigh*
14:13:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> Leipzig's trams have a weird gauge
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14:17:10 <Ammler> dragonhorseboy: moderntrams has a CarGo tram...
14:17:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> moderntrams is so unfinished...
14:18:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's the main problem of the tramsets
14:18:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> the feature is very young
14:18:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> the good sets need time to brew
14:18:46 <Ammler> Hiroshim is still the best one :-)
14:19:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'd like trams i can relate to...
14:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause2> like, ones that were used in "my" city
14:20:42 <ln> fortunately soon there will be a tram in the station signs.
14:22:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> 'Gotha' type in the '50s, 'T4' type in the '70s, MGT in the '90s
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14:23:02 <Ammler> ln: do you differ between pass and freight?
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14:26:12 <Sacro> Ammler: the amount that die in a crunch
14:27:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> funnily, it is going towards "Happy Future" ;)
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14:29:30 <dragonhorseboy> sorry was afk for a moment
14:29:40 <dragonhorseboy> where's 'moderntrams'?
14:29:58 <Ammler> t4 looks more like narrow trainset
14:30:08 <Gekz> dragonhorseboy: get the openttd coop grf pack
14:30:12 <Gekz> it has everything you'll ever need
14:30:16 <dragonhorseboy> and for the note.. that coal tram was last seen june 2007 so you can imagine why I wish it would already be coded even just as a standalone grf
14:30:44 <dragonhorseboy> gekz...I'll prefer to not clot up my newgrf folder with mass grfs that aren't in one single folder :p
14:31:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammler: T4 also exist in a standard gauge variant
14:31:12 <Gekz> dragonhorseboy: I meant get the pack and look through it
14:31:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammler: there's been no release of that, afaik
14:32:14 <dragonhorseboy> eddi...nor any sprites drawn yet as I've recalled seeing yet
14:32:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> dragonhorseboy: according to the page, the trams should be mostly finished
14:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, you're telling me NOW!
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14:35:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> we need proper turning loops
14:35:55 * dragonhorseboy does like the copy of new tramtrk.grf from that russia forum tho ;)
14:36:06 <dragonhorseboy> the altered stops graphics look better to me heh
14:36:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> i wouldn't really trust anything from a russian site
14:37:21 <ln> Ammler: nope. what kind of figure do freight trams have?
14:37:35 <dragonhorseboy> eddi..and why not? thats the only source of the russia plane grf anyhow :p (its not even downloadable from tt-forum/grfcrawler yet)
14:38:27 <Roest> it will blow up your computer
14:39:01 <roboman> does the openttd windows instaler store anything in the registry?
14:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammler: you see some graphics glitches in curves
14:39:39 <Ammler> actually, I am not participate in current testings
14:40:11 <Roest> those guys should hurry up, i want that tram set
14:40:32 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: belugas * r12837 /trunk/src/autoreplace_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Alignment of widget array
14:41:21 <Ammler> 1. public release is planned the end of month
14:41:39 <Roest> cool, thats soon enough
14:42:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> "1." <- that'd be ln's part to shout "english only" now :p
14:43:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> but he missed the chance
14:53:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> i mean of my town
14:54:10 <Roest> halle will be asimilated soon anyway
14:55:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> (actually, we'd do almost anything to get away from the reign of Magdeburg)
14:56:10 <Roest> lol i know, there was once talk of halle joining saxony
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14:57:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> it'd have been way more senseful than this artificial "Sachsen-Anhalt" thingie that historically never was a real country
14:57:37 <yorick> peter1138, the ISR station animation doesn't stop if a train leaves in an "unnatural way" i.e. skipping orders
14:58:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> Roest: anyway, the tram in halle is way older than the tram in leipzig
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15:07:27 <peter1138> don't skip orders then :)
15:08:33 <yorick> don't make the illusion you can do it bugless then :)
15:09:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> the route goes from the main station ("Hbf") on the right
15:09:20 * yorick goes updating fs#1866 *cough* to the newest trunk for community integrated version
15:09:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> north via "Steintor"
15:09:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> west via "Marktplatz"
15:09:40 <yorick> could someone change it from "feature request" to "patch"?
15:09:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> and south to "Rannischer Platz"
15:11:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> the network grew a tiny bit bigger in the meantime ;)
15:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> funnily, the number of lines did not grow much
15:12:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> it started with 6 lines ("green tram") in the southern part, and 3 lines ("red tram") in the northern part
15:13:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> now there are 12 lines
15:23:38 <Rubidium> hmm, if someone starts coughing because a patch I better not touch it (don't like coughing)
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15:38:15 * yorick added a fix for vista to the bottd topic :)
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15:49:43 <yorick> hmm...openttd.notice isn't working?
15:57:38 <lobster> question: does anyone know if the Intel mac/UB versions of the nightlies have been fixed?
16:01:41 <lobster> i don't really feel like compiling myself
16:01:51 <lobster> apparently there's been something wrong on the compiling farm for ages
16:02:16 <lobster> a bit odd that it's not getting fixed, if you don't mind me saying
16:03:05 <peter1138> yeah, you'd think our mac porter would come up with something
16:06:47 <lobster> well, i'm gonna try the current nightlies
16:07:04 <lobster> and the general OSX one, which i'm not sure of is UB
16:07:21 <lobster> eventually i might've to run the Windows version through CrossOver or something
16:07:26 <lobster> although i'd rather not
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16:09:48 <lobster> ah, the PPC version works, oddly enough
16:12:47 <yorick> what's that peter1138 patch list thingy?
16:14:27 <Belugas> a patch that implements a list?
16:14:48 <yorick> no, his patch directory
16:15:02 <yorick> full with 90% finished patches :p
16:16:05 <Belugas> everything goes in, very little can escape
16:17:29 <yorick> such a thing, my friend, is called a black hole
16:19:05 <yorick> but where is his website including patch directory?
16:27:59 <yorick> yes, mentioned in this channel 8 times before
16:29:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> my (half) logs count 44
16:30:24 <yorick> I grepped it a couple of times
16:30:45 <yorick> first by http://, then negative by pastebin, and then by peter
16:34:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> my old logs have another 212
16:38:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm sure i have even older logs than that
16:39:16 <yorick> hmm...engine pool needs engine_base.h, but where is it?
16:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> logs start on 23. Jun 2006, which is the date i installed linux
16:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> that was a few months before the channel moved
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16:42:12 * yorick should slap peter1138 for providing patches with missing files that claim to patch to a revision while they don't
16:43:54 <yorick> -/** @file engine_type.h Types related to engines. */ ...+/** @file engine_base.h Types related to engines. */
16:44:32 <yorick> huh..why does it rename?
16:45:32 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
16:48:16 <yorick> yes, turns out you should rename r12723 engine_type.h to engine_base.h, then update to r12826 and let the engine_type restore
16:48:22 <glx> yorick: easy, you need to copy engine_type.h to engine_base.h before patching
16:49:13 <yorick> now going to eat, cyas
16:49:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> _really_ old logs have another 46 instances, btw, totalling in 302
16:50:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> "so fucking what"?
16:50:51 <Bjarni> sounds like my hardware can't handle it
16:51:14 <Tefad> not the intel mac nightlies?
16:52:46 <glx> Tefad: the problem is for 10.5 only ;)
16:53:19 <Tefad> apple breaking compatibility as usual
16:53:31 <Tefad> how do users/developers put up with that crap
16:53:38 <glx> compile farm needs an update
16:53:50 <Bjarni> but updating caused issues
16:54:13 <Bjarni> it's running gentoo and because of that we have to build from source
16:54:28 <Tefad> apple gcc is wonky however.
16:55:32 <Tefad> i don't even think that's used much in US mostly UK : x
16:56:31 <Bjarni> ahh google explained it better than you
16:56:50 <Bjarni> however what do you mean?
16:56:58 <Bjarni> do you think that gcc is broken?
16:57:06 <Tefad> apple's gcc has weird stuff eh?
17:00:03 <Bjarni> you speak of it like it's gcc for MorphOS
17:00:19 <glx> gcc for MorphOS is just old
17:00:51 <Bjarni> but it's broken when it comes to compiling code written for gcc 4
17:04:30 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r12838 /branches/noai/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AIEventEnginePreview, which tells you when you have been chosen for testing an engine, and allows you to accept it
17:05:05 <Bjarni> Roest: how did you find it? AFAIK it's not written in braille
17:05:58 <Roest> my computer reads websites for me
17:12:40 <yorick> does it also read irc?
17:14:12 <cjk> 7|2Y 70 |234|> 7|-|15 :-)
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17:16:29 * teeg doesn't want to admit to being able to read cjk's text :(
17:16:54 <Prof_Frink> teeg: I managed, with some effort
17:17:12 <teeg> it took 100x times as long as normal text, but it's doable
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17:30:38 <ooo4tom> would someone like to explain why installing OpenTTD 0.6.0 is such a pain in the back side ?
17:31:00 <SpComb> what aspect of it is a PITA?
17:31:10 <ooo4tom> installing the Nightly was a walk in the park, but 0.6.0 no
17:31:29 <ooo4tom> why is it not the same as a nightly build ?
17:31:41 <ooo4tom> usr folders, shared and so on
17:31:57 <ooo4tom> with the nightly is extract and copy files, and play
17:32:46 <glx> for releases it's install and play
17:33:44 <ooo4tom> i'd prefer the option, like Windows user have :(
17:35:53 <cjk> windows users generally don't have the option of unzipping, but they are often stuck with installing some bloaty .exe which writes to the registry :p
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17:36:49 <ooo4tom> Window user have the option to download a Zip file or a EXE :s
17:38:06 <cjk> in openttd yes. But not every windows program is designed with portability in mind.
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17:40:50 <ooo4tom> i'm just finding it a little hard to get my head around this. so please ignore me lol
17:41:43 <yorick> the lastet version is somewath old, but if an archive doesn't extract, you might try to google for a new version of the tool used for it
17:43:27 <cjk> that still would not help programs that depend (ugh) on some regentry being there
17:43:56 <cjk> uniextract is an installer itself
17:44:05 <yorick> autoit can also be used for other things
17:44:35 <yorick> and a rar archive is also downloadable
17:47:07 <ooo4tom> just got 0.6.0 running, manully extracting the needed files from the download .bed
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17:49:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's a classic ;)
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18:14:12 <Gedemon> peter1138 : is it ok for you if the enginepool patch is used in the community integrated version ?
18:20:10 <yorick> it's licensed under the GPL
18:21:04 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12839 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Allocate temporary engine data when loading GRFs as needed instead of statically.
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18:21:47 <yorick> which will probably break it from then unless he updates
18:37:37 <Gedemon> yep, I'll wait then :)
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18:59:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's most likely part of the patch
19:10:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's gonozal's fault even
19:10:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> and then he disappears
19:12:32 <yorick> Gonozal disappeared ;(
19:12:39 <DorpsGek> yorick: Gonozal_VIII was last seen in #openttd 4 weeks, 4 days, 17 hours, 3 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <Gonozal_VIII> still nobody here
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19:13:07 <yorick> 4 weeks...that's like a month
19:13:47 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause2: wasn't actually
19:13:49 <DorpsGek> dih: I don't recognize you.
19:14:47 <yorick> even DorpsGek knows you
19:15:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> means it took you a month to even notice that he's gone
19:16:01 <yorick> well...I was away for a whole week
19:16:10 <yorick> so it took me three weeks
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19:23:33 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r12840 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_event_types.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix (r12838): incorrect comment
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19:43:04 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12841 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_industry.cpp ai_industry.hpp ai_industry.hpp.sq): [NoAI] -Add: function to test whether an industry is built on water/has a heliport/dock.
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19:55:26 <Roest> hmm why does w->height = 14 + num_active *12; work and ResizeWindow(w, 0, num_active * 12); not
19:57:51 <Alberth> Roest: First is absolute, 2nd is relative ?
19:58:28 <Roest> but the window is initialized with a height of 14, so both commands should do the same
19:58:52 <Roest> but the resize is glitchy :)
19:59:24 <Lakie> It just expects you give it the absoule new sizes.
19:59:35 <Lakie> not relative ones most likely.
20:00:37 <Alberth> window.cpp near line 1227 says otherwise
20:00:37 <Roest> y delta y-size of changed window
20:00:49 <peter1138> did you set the window dirty afterward?
20:01:13 <peter1138> hmm, actually i'm thinking of resizewindowforwidget :o
20:01:33 <Roest> anyway w-height = works well, though i thought the ResizeWindow method wouldbe the cleaner way
20:02:34 <peter1138> yeah, resizewindow is delta
20:03:26 <Roest> i'm posting the new patch in a sec, so you can for yourself if interested
20:04:37 <Alberth> maybe you should also call the window event handler?
20:04:52 <Alberth> see line 1464 window.cpp
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20:06:34 <Roest> posted the patch, it's bettergraphs, the line in question is in graph_gui.cpp line 206
20:10:02 <Roest> Alberth: line 1464 in window.cpp is empty :)
20:10:17 <Alberth> well, search for WE_RESIZE :)
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20:12:55 <Bjarni> why are everybody working on windows tonight?
20:13:09 * Bjarni is looking at the autoreplace window
20:13:22 <Bjarni> and it looks like somebody else looks at windows as well
20:14:14 <Roest> i just took an abandoned patch, stole some code from belugas and pretend i did something
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20:14:50 * Bjarni makes note that Roest tries to take credit for other patch writers
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20:15:52 <Roest> actually i'm not, i even pm'd the original author and he's happxy i continue with it
20:16:20 <Roest> i don't why i'm doing it tho, i hate working on someone elses code
20:16:51 <mynetdude> do any of you even play OTTD?
20:16:58 <mynetdude> or do you all just fiddle/code it?
20:17:14 <Roest> not recently, i find it more fun to fiddle with the code lately
20:17:27 <peter1138> that is a big window
20:17:44 <Roest> peter1138: sizte does matter
20:20:04 <mynetdude> any of you good with signals within OTTD?
20:20:48 <Belugas> [16:16] <Roest> not recently, i find it more fun to fiddle with the code lately <--- so accurate :D
20:21:05 <cjk> it is accurate for a lot of games
20:21:14 <dragonhorseboy> mynetdude...some but I'm more liking of it in ttdp instead (well one clue: pbs? ;) )
20:21:57 <mynetdude> uh I have no idea what all this is, PBS, YAPP, YAPF, etc I know they have something to do with how the AI behaves
20:22:53 <Alberth> the first is a TLA, the others are FLA's
20:22:54 <mynetdude> err at least thats what I understand as far as YAPF??
20:23:02 <mynetdude> like I said I have no clue
20:23:20 <mynetdude> I guess I'll have to go the hard way to find out thanks though
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20:23:42 <Alberth> peter1138: obviously :)
20:25:21 <Alberth> nobody any patience anymore?
20:38:17 <Roest> that would require to have a clue
20:39:00 <Roest> how do people find these bugs, i never see any when i play
20:44:11 <De_Ghosty> cuz they are crazy like that
20:44:30 <Roest> there's not one nice bug on that list
20:45:23 <Alberth> Roest: With your patch, Company Performance Grow rate doesn't scale nicely; all graph are at the bottom
20:46:38 <Alberth> Since I made two of those bugs: Mostly by accident
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20:50:30 <mynetdude> There are plenty of reading materials including the wiki on signals, OTTD, and so forth... what I'd like to point out though is the info about signals in OTTD on the wiki is a bit confusing everybody talks about "one way" "priority" etc.. OTTD only has a few signal types: exit, entry, combination, one way and double signals... I left because either A) I'm too dense to not read, which I did or B) you'd rather not help newbies
20:50:51 <mynetdude> Does anybody have tips on signals? what is all this PBS/YAPP stuff?
20:51:03 <peter1138> pbs/yapp is irrelevant
20:51:11 <Rubidium> PBS is not in the version you are using, so irrelevant
20:51:43 <Rubidium> priority can be made out of exit, entry and combination signals, but that's pretty complex to do
20:51:49 <peter1138> one-way shouldn't confuse anyone though
20:51:49 <mynetdude> I have the OTTD 0.6.0
20:52:14 <mynetdude> well in a sense I understand one ways... but not exactly
20:52:34 <mynetdude> obviously you wouldn't use a one way on a complex or dual direction junction
20:52:59 <mynetdude> I would presume one ways are more appropriate for station sidings and sidings?
20:53:04 <ln> where are the station signs drawn?
20:53:21 <peter1138> one-ways are appropriate for dual-track lines
20:53:27 <mynetdude> peter1138 why? if you have a junction going 4-5 different ways... a one way signal won't work
20:53:44 <peter1138> neither will a two-way... you'll get blockages
20:54:06 <Roest> hmm alberth, not exactly sure about that, maybe there is no growth?
20:54:14 <mynetdude> well if I had a visual way to understand how/what each signal controls that would help
20:57:33 <cjk> peter1138: should not that be all in the wiki? :)
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20:58:27 <Alberth> Roest: Can I send you a file?
20:58:52 <cjk> peter1138: just the pictures
21:00:05 <mynetdude> peter1138 I did read both of those pages you linked
21:00:13 <mynetdude> before I came here of course
21:00:14 <Roest> just hope this shitty irc client can do it hehe
21:00:43 <Alberth> otherwise I can post in the better graphs thread
21:01:05 <Roest> can you pm it on the forums?
21:02:18 <ln> which approach would make more sense: 1) make a distinction between bus and tram stops internally, or 2) leave them mostly as they are, select icons to draw by checking if the station has road and/or tracks in the tile?
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21:02:36 <Roest> hmm which setting is the little percentage numbers for loading trains, i cant find it, or is it from some patch?
21:03:15 <glx> check the transparency gui
21:05:06 <peter1138> mynetdude: just those two? there's a lot more pages there, heh
21:05:12 <Alberth> mynetdude: What are you missing with these pictures?
21:05:25 <glx> Roest: and it's also in interface patch settings
21:05:32 <mynetdude> peter1138 well I did click on each of the junction pics to reveal more
21:05:45 <mynetdude> well I don't know...
21:05:57 <mynetdude> seems like I would want to use two way signals... but there is more to it than just that
21:06:17 <mynetdude> I have tried to tell trains to use certain waypoints, and it ignores them
21:06:32 <mynetdude> in the past 48hrs I have been toying with OTTD to understand it
21:06:35 <Roest> Alberth: ok that's a bit strange, it doesnt do that for me
21:07:24 <Roest> Alberth: is that all companies in that pic, or did you filter one out that has better groth?
21:08:35 <Alberth> all afaik. I can send you a save game
21:09:01 <Alberth> maybe it happens when you have no negative values?
21:10:40 <Roest> [23:09] <Alberth> all afaik. I can send you a save game
21:17:08 <Alberth> mynetdude: one thing you could do is post a savegame to the forums, and ask for comment/improvements on how to achieve what you want
21:19:00 <Alberth> Roest: all the others seem ok
21:19:07 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r12842 /trunk/src/news_gui.cpp: -Codechange [FS#1604]: scale message history by map size
21:19:37 <Roest> problem from what i see is, for some it scales correctly and some not
21:21:07 <mynetdude> Alberth yeah I'm looking for my screenie I took and I can't find it
21:21:36 <mynetdude> I read that the screenies/savegames are saved relative to where the .cfg is saved and I can't find the .cfg yet
21:22:22 <mynetdude> I was wondering about that
21:22:39 <mynetdude> I wasn't sure if it was smart enough :P
21:23:22 <Alberth> mynetdude: One of the problems is that we don't understand why the pictures are not clear to new players. Makes it kind of difficult to improve on them
21:25:22 <mynetdude> when you mean two way, are you implying that the signal is on both sides of a single track?
21:25:48 <mynetdude> meaning a signal facing each direction upon a single track
21:26:19 <mynetdude> ah so I COULD use a one way signal to control which way trains go on a particular track?
21:26:54 <mynetdude> so if I wanted westbound only on the north track and eastbound on the south track I would need one way signals and places for them to switch when turning around
21:28:14 <Alberth> yes, that's how the majority of players build tracks here
21:29:03 <Alberth> where 'places for them to switch when turning around' is usually at a station where you pickup or deliver cargo
21:29:13 <dragonhorseboy> alberth..heh I seem to be the smaller group that always build more of individual lines alone instead ^-^
21:29:28 <dragonhorseboy> I found it much easier to manage traffics and train upgrades like that for some reason
21:30:52 <Alberth> I was just talking about having 2 single direction tracks, not about whether these are all connected. BTW I also usually play with a lot of seperate tracks.
21:31:26 <Roest> Alberth: thos AIs in your game are kinda funny
21:31:35 <dragonhorseboy> alberth...heh well yeah often (partially thanks to grf wagon speeds) I have raw and final production lines completely seperated ^-^
21:31:48 <dragonhorseboy> 80km/h sugar verus 120km/h food for example
21:32:18 <dragonhorseboy> makes it easier to lump traffics onto either because they have the traffic space to spare .. compared to if I had tried lump both onto a single line
21:32:43 <Roest> mynetdude: get a build with yapp, then you need only one signal type
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21:33:44 <Alberth> I find it more fun to keep them together, and then have a double track in both directions where they can jump between. I haven't yet quite mastered how to do that though. Needs much more practice time ;)
21:34:58 <Alberth> I usually play with realistic speedup/drag(?), so trains with cargo are already much slower than without
21:36:23 <Alberth> Roest: Haven't noticed; was running a time table experiment with buses
21:37:14 <Roest> i havent understood timetables yet
21:38:23 <peter1138> Alberth: cargo weight affects "non-realistic" acceleration too
21:40:31 <Alberth> Ah, then it is another one.... ah, 'freight multiplier' set to 10
21:43:13 <dragonhorseboy> alberth I never bothered with that
21:43:25 <dragonhorseboy> certain small engines seem to get too difficult to even use with it anywhere outside 1x ^-^
21:45:40 <Alberth> I like it in the sense that you need to compensate for it in the rail tracks, eg put a double track up a mountain. (probably because I place signals quite far away from each other, usualy at least 10-15 tiles)
21:47:58 <dragonhorseboy> roest...for example...
21:48:17 <Roest> gues you're not servicing a dual coal mine station with both at 1000+ a month
21:48:43 <dragonhorseboy> 90km/h @ 700hp @ 84kN @ introduced 1942
21:48:46 <Tefad> add more engines to compensate for weight
21:48:46 <Alberth> Roest: You mean the long yellow AI roads in the north?
21:48:53 <peter1138> i read that as 'dual core mine station' :o
21:48:59 <dragonhorseboy> thats to show you an example...if the multiplier was 2x or more that railcar would barely even get past 50-60km/h at all which is not good
21:49:24 <peter1138> dragonhorseboy: seems like you like the game easy... freight multiplier 1x, george's over capacitied 4LV...
21:49:31 <Roest> and the red airport south west
21:49:51 <dragonhorseboy> peter..nope...I mean whats the use of purchasing the railmotor with just one single trailer if it can't even get at least 3/4 of its speed out? :p
21:49:57 <Roest> peter1138: i like the game easy too
21:50:02 <dragonhorseboy> the real ones actually hauled two trailers at 90km/h top
21:50:04 <mynetdude> back, was alittle busy
21:50:34 <peter1138> dragonhorseboy: non or 'realistic' acceleration?
21:50:37 <Roest> i create maps in the scenario editor and level them to one height, because i hat steps
21:50:45 <dragonhorseboy> this is what I find a bit ironic about trying to fit real trains into the game's physics
21:50:59 <dragonhorseboy> peter.. relastic (and in ttdp its set as 3333 for speed&handling)
21:51:36 <mynetdude> alittle hard to put realism in such an old game with basic stuff
21:52:11 <dragonhorseboy> roest..heh I noticed that too :p
21:52:26 <mynetdude> I did, whats wrong?
21:52:39 <mynetdude> though I LIKE the game :D
21:52:54 <mynetdude> locomotion seems like another game I'd like too
21:52:55 <Roest> probably some ninjas on the way to your house by now
21:53:06 <peter1138> you've got double-track so use one-ways
21:53:10 <mynetdude> haha Roest my brother is one, he'll defend me :D
21:53:48 <mynetdude> so two ways are better for single track/sidings
21:54:41 <Roest> nice choice for company color btw, you like pink?
21:54:46 <mynetdude> even though I have double track, what if I have say 2 trains
21:54:56 <mynetdude> Roest no, thats what the game gave me so I'm just using the color
21:55:01 <mynetdude> (yes I know it can be changed)
21:55:08 <mynetdude> but I have restarted like 25 times
21:55:40 <mynetdude> well anyway... say I have three trains
21:56:12 <mynetdude> each station has two platforms, if I use one ways and the track he is on already has a train in, then I will want that train to pick the free platform
21:56:36 <mynetdude> so I would have to allow the train to switch, so I suppose this is where the entry/exit signals come into play?
21:56:39 <Nite> anyone having brutal desync problems with 606 ?
21:56:46 <Alberth> you solve that locally at the station
21:57:52 <mynetdude> one way signals keep trains going in one direction per track
21:58:19 <Alberth> bottom line is an ingoing line, top one is outgoing
21:58:22 <Roest> mynetdude: the wiki has some articles for station entrances and junctions
21:58:28 <Roest> it's a pretty good read
21:58:39 <peter1138> (yes, i moved some track)
21:59:29 <Roest> peter1138: you're playing with an awful resolution
21:59:34 <Nite> same are always: ukrs & planeset
21:59:57 <dragonhorseboy> roest..doesn't look like it to me
22:00:25 <mynetdude> peter1138 wow you're fast, and you're good at manipulating what I just created
22:00:47 <Alberth> years and years of training :)
22:00:51 <Roest> Nite: 0.6.0 is pretty stable, must be something with your net config
22:01:00 <mynetdude> I understand that clearly a small X junction at the station
22:01:56 <Nite> well it works smooth vanilla so i think its more a newgrf problem - i didnt change my connection
22:02:09 <Alberth> I'd also connect both incoming lines together and both outgoing lines together
22:02:12 <Nite> and it was running very well on 053
22:02:42 * dragonhorseboy has had no clue wherever the cfg file even is ever since like 0.5.3 or so too :/
22:02:57 <peter1138> probably because 0.5.3 doesn't support a lot of the stuff that 0.6.0 does
22:02:58 <dragonhorseboy> at least thankgod most of the network and grf items can be set from in-game menus
22:03:36 <Roest> Nite: i'm a grf and patch whore myself and dont experience desyncs, maybe just one or two a night
22:03:51 <Alberth> mynetdude: ie remove the bottom bridge and connect both lines together
22:04:27 <Nite> i expierience desiyn ond "peter's ukrs" as sooon as the game unpauses - i can watch paused game as spectator.
22:04:54 <dragonhorseboy> nite...I noticed that, no idea why
22:05:32 *** Sacro was kicked by Bjarni (wrong move)
22:06:08 <Roest> bjarni's just playing hard to get
22:06:20 <dragonhorseboy> nite...yeah even peter seem to have some issue at that time too
22:06:32 <Nite> (same fx on "brienettas" which is down now)
22:06:45 <Roest> oh it's probably the driving on the wrong side thing
22:07:07 <dragonhorseboy> hmm which of just one curious station question
22:07:20 <dragonhorseboy> how many of you have through platforms that can serve traffic in both directions?
22:08:00 <Nite> i use them but dunno in which game u are anyways
22:08:36 <Roest> my city stations are usually terminus and the industry stations one way roro
22:09:00 <dragonhorseboy> I always wish I could show these station layouts to some nice people but the problem is either 1. they're not in game by then or 2. is in some silly server configuration that wouldn't let me traffic the station the way I want to
22:09:02 <mynetdude> hey thanks for the help all
22:09:27 <Nite> which game are u in now? (ill join)
22:09:57 <Roest> i never have have a client that matches any of these server revs
22:10:08 <mynetdude> Alberth, how do you mean remove the bridge? I tried that and couldn't do it due to the akward slope
22:10:09 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
22:10:17 <dragonhorseboy> none actually...just waiting for someone to come online probably about a hour later for us to resume the private game we've been playing tho
22:10:45 <Nite> would come online to watch some nice stations.
22:11:11 <dragonhorseboy> nite heh well dunno about the stations but if you can grab two grfs I guess I could let you see the paused game :p
22:12:22 <mynetdude> Nite watching doesn't sound like a bad idea
22:12:46 <mynetdude> dragonhorseboy you have to have the grfs to see the custom stuff?
22:12:56 <mynetdude> even if you are just watching, the game doesn't download it?
22:13:34 <mynetdude> hey Alberth, you still around? :)
22:14:14 <Nite> could well be i already have those newgrfs - but without server name no game.
22:14:30 <Roest> you could also download some savegames from the ottdcoop guys, they are pretty educating
22:14:36 <Alberth> more or less, should go to bed
22:15:08 <Alberth> not sure I understand that you cannot remove the bridge
22:15:32 <Sacro> DON'T REMOVE THE BRIDGE ><
22:15:37 <Sacro> the islands will drift apart
22:15:52 <mynetdude> Nite well I realize that, but what I am asking is to see the custom grfs one must have it even if it is hosted by someone else?
22:16:15 <mynetdude> Alberth sure I can remove the bridge, but the terrain does not permit easy integration with the lines
22:16:28 <Roest> sacro don't worry there's still the anchor
22:16:40 <mynetdude> lol Roest we talking about ships now? :D
22:17:03 <Nite> afaik you must dl all your newgrfs by hand.
22:17:10 <mynetdude> though I do like the C turn going from the bridge
22:17:10 <De_Ghosty> you guys know who john coulton is right?
22:17:26 <mynetdude> Nite alright cool, ty :)
22:17:38 <Nite> but you can have a look which ones are used on a server.
22:18:04 <mynetdude> yeah you go to the openttd.org website I think and you can see what the servers are using
22:18:52 <mynetdude> I got some GRFs just haven't even started installing them yet
22:19:06 <Nite> the "newgrf setting" button to the right
22:19:41 <Alberth> mynetdude: couldn't you make a 45 turn two tiles from the station, and go down-hill at the side?
22:19:44 <Nite> you are more copying them than installing.
22:20:03 <mynetdude> so this openttdcoop package has everything?
22:20:09 <Nite> any game for me to join?
22:20:22 <Nite> guess os for teh coop server.
22:20:55 <mynetdude> well the game won't let me make angled tracks on slopped terrain
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22:21:01 <mynetdude> well it will but not correctly
22:21:31 <De_Ghosty> when do we get diagonal roads?
22:21:47 <mynetdude> oh yeah I went there grfcrawler...
22:22:01 <mynetdude> they had some great stuff there
22:22:17 <mynetdude> but whats the difference between openttdcoop vs the ones at grfcrawler?
22:22:37 <Patrick`_> De_Ghosty: screw them, I want diagonal bridges
22:22:51 <Patrick`_> and diagonal rails traversing a linear slope
22:22:54 <mynetdude> Patrick`_ actually diagnal bridges could come in handy
22:23:06 <Patrick`_> in fact, climbing an incline at an angle is how it's done in real life
22:23:14 <Roest> the coop packages has everything you need in one big package, while at grf crawler you have have to singlehandly download oneby one
22:23:18 <Alberth> just turn all your rail tracks 45 degrees :P
22:23:20 <Nite> i think this whole newgrf thing is ridicioulous anyways ...
22:23:23 <mynetdude> Patrick`_ what do u mean?
22:23:40 <Nite> why all this complicated serching by hand ...
22:24:02 <mynetdude> Roest but didn't you just say coop doesn't have everything?
22:24:29 <Roest> well they dont have everything, that's for sure
22:24:36 <Nite> newgrfs just being uploaded to a server where they are distributed ingame will be great.
22:24:38 *** KritiK_ is now known as KritiK
22:24:55 <dragonhorseboy> sorry was afk...
22:25:03 <mynetdude> Nite kinda like built in grf sharing within the game?
22:25:17 <mynetdude> ok time for me to see if I can do these signals
22:25:21 <dragonhorseboy> here's why I don't like many of the newgrf servers -- where the hell do I even download older grfs when the server doesn't have its own grf pack?
22:25:32 <Nite> coop has every newgrf for the coopserver, isnt that obvious?
22:25:37 <Patrick`_> the map that you load off a server is bigger than most grfs
22:25:44 <dragonhorseboy> (not even in version 5 through 7 of the openttd grfpack neither)
22:26:06 <mynetdude> well I'll just start over... I've been doing just that the last 3 days
22:26:07 <Roest> the grfs i use are still 10+ MB zipped
22:26:15 <Nite> yeah kind of - like map downloading but with newgrfs
22:26:22 <Alberth> you only have to distribute the URL of a grf ingame
22:26:34 <Nite> ... still i know a restart is needd to activate them.
22:26:56 <mynetdude> Nite which I am sure it could do on its own and then reconnect when done?
22:27:04 <mynetdude> peter1138 no not the PC, the game
22:27:20 <mynetdude> peter1138 so the GRF can work?
22:27:31 <peter1138> that needs no restart
22:27:41 <Nite> there is no url needed for maps either ...
22:28:08 <Nite> yust new contetn downloaded automatically is a great gamefeature in so many games ... bla bla
22:28:21 <Alberth> just click away the warnings that loading grf midgame may crash the game :P
22:29:17 <mynetdude> in your opinion, which is better when starting out? single track or double track?
22:29:18 <Rubidium> Nite: yeah... and George/Pikka making their NewGRFs not work in OpenTTD because the 'great gamefeature' is an even greater gamefeature, I guess
22:29:29 <Nite> yeah but you have to have the newgrfs first.
22:30:00 <mynetdude> assuming the towns will let you expand at a later date... or you plant a lot of trees
22:30:01 <peter1138> single with passing places :D
22:30:02 <Tefad> wtf at not working in openttd?
22:30:12 <mynetdude> peter1138 sidings... yeah that would work
22:30:22 <dragonhorseboy> peter..as long as you don't get as crooky as the AI's are :p
22:30:25 <mynetdude> Tefad I never understood that, so I'll pretend I did
22:30:36 <Nite> think they worked fine in 053 ...
22:30:49 <Tefad> well i know what GRFs are and i've used them
22:31:02 <Tefad> i'm just confused as to why someone would purposefully make them not work in ottd
22:32:37 <glx> Tefad: canset was explicitely disabled on OTTD until we implement some features
22:33:35 <Nite> wow i dont get desync on petersukrs now ...
22:35:35 <mynetdude> well I'm understanding now, and now I understand that comment... yeah
22:44:18 <Nite> is peter surks your server peter1138?
22:50:04 <dragonhorseboy> hmm *decides to take a look to see if the desync thing is gone*
22:50:51 <Nite> but other players joining did
22:55:09 *** Osai^zZz is now known as Osai^zZz`off
23:02:34 <Nite> desinceria here ... <:-(
23:12:37 <mynetdude> this is an awesome place to hang out.. thanks folks... **goes back to playing and trying hard to break things*
23:16:59 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: bjarni * r12843 /trunk/src/ (autoreplace_gui.cpp build_vehicle_gui.cpp):
23:16:59 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Feature [FS#1945]: The autoreplace window is now resizable in both directions
23:16:59 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: The code to open this window is also unified for all vehicle types
23:20:40 <mynetdude> alright, since I am no longer using double track so therefore I have no more need for one way signals... now the question is for you experts... how would you setup signals for a single line with siding? do I setup two ways for all areas needing to be protected?
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23:25:29 <peter1138> flow control obviously isn't natural for you ;)
23:26:45 <Bjarni> mynetdude: are you a train dispatcher in real life?
23:27:19 <Bjarni> simsig isn't real life
23:27:35 <peter1138> _________d_________d________
23:27:35 <peter1138> d = signal facing <
23:27:36 <peter1138> p = signal facing >
23:28:39 <mynetdude> haha whoever asked me if I was a rail dispatcher... kind of a silly question if I can't get my flow straight
23:29:19 <Bjarni> that sounds like a a good qualification
23:29:25 <Bjarni> at least for some rail companies
23:29:58 <mynetdude> peter1138 yes but lets say there are no trains going in the direction of the d signals why would I want my train to take the siding with p signals if it can just go straight?
23:30:22 <mynetdude> or the real question is... how long should my sidings be?
23:30:41 <Bjarni> long enough to keep the longest train between the two signals
23:30:42 <DaleStan> Long enough to fit all but one of your trains on either side.
23:30:52 <peter1138> because when you use two-way signals you'll eventually end up with two trains on either side, stuck with nowhere to go
23:31:13 <Bjarni> <mynetdude> peter1138 yes but lets say there are no trains going in the direction of the d signals why would I want my train to take the siding with p signals if it can just go straight? <-- you are asking for something so advanced that the game can't handle it
23:31:26 <DaleStan> Maybe all but two (on that track system, that is), but no shorter than that.
23:31:27 <mynetdude> but thats silly... I have been on trains where we'd be on a single mainline with a siding on each side of us
23:31:43 <peter1138> yes, but that's real life
23:31:44 <Bjarni> but then it's human controlled
23:31:56 <Bjarni> this needs a computer to make the decision for you
23:32:31 <Bjarni> and you don't want to allow the computer to use a minute each time a train has to pass a switch
23:32:35 <Bjarni> you want it to be fast
23:33:00 <mynetdude> well then a dual track mainline would be better
23:33:03 <Bjarni> also... complex signals needs complex code and we didn't write that ;)
23:37:07 <mynetdude> so let me guess... I can't have say a two way pre entry signal and then two way signals on the L and R sidings with the mainline in the middle and then again on the other end and then an exit signal, will the game work that way?
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23:38:34 <mynetdude> what I meant to ask, not about siding legnth but how often do I need a siding? just before each station?
23:39:01 <mynetdude> guess I'll try that and see what happens
23:39:08 <Bjarni> you need two tracks everywhere you think trains would benefit from being able to meet each other
23:40:40 <mynetdude> well then I guess I'd be better off planning a two track system when I first start a new game
23:41:10 <mynetdude> and then as I add new trains I can upgrade stations/tracks to allow more traffic
23:42:28 <Bjarni> generally I tend to build one track lines in the beginning and then as money allows and traffic increases I make more and more places trains can meet until they end up expanding into each other and I have a double tracked line
23:57:39 <mynetdude> I think the setup I have works
23:58:17 <Sacro> Bjarni: shouldn't we be going to bed soon
23:59:57 <Bjarni> I was thinking about heading for bed but now I can't
continue to next day ⏵
