IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-04-23
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00:00:30 <Bjarni> people would just get the wrong idea
00:00:50 <Bjarni> that is... people like you
00:01:23 <Bjarni> the difference between you and me is that I commit code and you commit people
00:02:07 *** Sacro was kicked by Bjarni (wrong)
00:02:44 <Sacro> I thought you loved me :'(
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00:15:03 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12844 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp newgrf_house.cpp newgrf_industrytiles.cpp): -Fix: the industry tick trigger should only be triggered once every 256 ticks, not every tick... Also bail out of the triggers a little earlier if you know they are not going to happen anyway.
00:16:33 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12845 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Change: use YAPF for fairly old savegames from before YAPF was introduced.
00:26:27 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 24 minutes and 16 seconds ago: * Bjarni hides
00:28:23 <mynetdude> ok I'm having alittle problem with this signal theory setup www.thenetdude.com/myttd/somesig.png
00:29:01 <mynetdude> the signal works as intended, but as soon as the train has to stop it reverses direction immediately instead of waiting
00:29:43 <Sacro> why are you using presignals anyway?
00:30:18 <mynetdude> presig as the yellow one you mean?
00:30:44 <mynetdude> so if I take that out and convert the grey ones to normal semaphores the concept will still work?
00:31:09 <mynetdude> I'm not sure why I'm using presig... thought I had to have that in order for the design to work, but I can see how not needing a presig is probably better
00:31:11 <Sacro> hmm, they wouldn't queue
00:31:23 <Sacro> but them is there a reason for the 1-3 split
00:31:27 <mynetdude> what do u mean they wouldn't que where?
00:31:49 <Sacro> it's hard to tell without seeing a bigger layout
00:31:56 <mynetdude> ok so take the presigs out... because any train that passes the exit sigs will force all sigs to drop
00:32:17 <mynetdude> ok I think I know what to do here
00:34:12 <mynetdude> yep presig was the problem
00:34:25 <mynetdude> guess I don't know how to use presigs properly yet
00:34:55 <Sacro> you use an entrance and an exit
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00:37:23 <mynetdude> oic what I did wrong
00:37:44 <mynetdude> the presig was being used "after" the ext rather than before
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01:46:33 <mynetdude> wtf... my crates of goods is disappearing faster than my train can pick it up unless another train is picking it up but it has no capabilities to even do it
01:49:06 <mynetdude> sadly its not a train, oh wells
03:14:50 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: richk * r12846 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (6 files in 4 dirs):
03:14:50 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NewGRF_ports] -Change: Added clearer support for seaplanes.
03:14:50 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: Seaplane is now defined on bits 2 & 3 of Prop 0x17 of Action0Planes.
03:14:50 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: Seaplanes can only be built at airports they can use. Some seaplanes have dual land/sea capability; this is supported.
03:14:50 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: Updated seaplaneport.grf to reflect new functionality.
03:18:11 <mynetdude> you made a seaplane grf?
03:18:35 <mynetdude> can seaplanes land on water somehow?
03:18:51 <mynetdude> I have added some GRFs... this is pretty neat stuff
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03:40:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> seaplanes would be able to land on specially designed seaports
03:40:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> they are not in the main development version yet
03:41:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> this is just an experimental branch
03:45:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> as for the signalling above: you do not want one-way signals on a single track line
03:47:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> one way signals are used to force direction of traffic on lines with more than one track
03:50:46 <mynetdude> Eddi|zuHause3, yeah I know I don't want one ways... I just put that there until I could figure out how to keep trains off the single track while a train sits at one of (or both) of the feeder stations
03:50:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2021.%20Sep%201956.png <- like on this picture, where all tracks are doubled
03:52:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> i'm not sure what you want to achieve there
03:52:12 <mynetdude> alittle hard to explain... but let me try
03:52:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> probably you need to move the signal on the bottom two tiles back, behind the switch
03:52:25 <mynetdude> are you currently looking at the screenshot?
03:52:40 <mynetdude> uh, I thought I did that?
03:52:50 <mynetdude> what bottom two tiles?
03:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> go on, explain your stuff, i am just guessing here
03:53:54 <mynetdude> I think I need to take another screenie, you're not seeing a part I wanted you to see... hang on
03:54:02 <mynetdude> you can't see the other switches
03:54:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> especially i can't see trains going anywhere
03:54:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> like, a situation which you want to avoid happening
03:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> PS: press Ctrl+S to make a screenshot
03:55:56 <mynetdude> well I won't be able to show that, but I can definetely point out a few things so gimme a few
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04:02:48 <mynetdude> the circled area I want to keep cleared at all times except when trains are entering/exiting otherwise if a train enters while two trains are at each of their own respective stations, neither can get out and would cause a gridlock/reversal
04:03:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> then you want to have presignals
04:03:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> but they won't work with combined stations
04:03:58 <mynetdude> also... anytime trains enter not just the feeder track trains that have another destination end up waiting at the stations on the mainline until the feeder trains clear that signal block
04:04:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> have a waiting area for each station separately
04:04:13 <mynetdude> what do you mean combined?
04:04:41 <mynetdude> oh I guess I could setup waiting areas respectively
04:05:59 <mynetdude> just junctioning the existing tracks on the left side of the screenie is a tad bit complex
04:06:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, effective junctions are very difficult
04:06:32 <mynetdude> well I'll figure that out at some point
04:06:58 <mynetdude> next question is... I installed some newGRFs after I had already stared playing that game... can I still use the new GRFs?
04:07:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> look at my junction from before, you notice a lot of signals inbetween
04:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> depends on the kind of newgrfs
04:07:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> trainsets for example should rather be loaded before start
04:07:58 <mynetdude> well have any idea which ones won't work?
04:08:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> station sets can be changed as you wish
04:08:19 <mynetdude> Eddi|zuHause3 what about signals?
04:08:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> signals are graphical only, these are generally safe
04:08:52 <mynetdude> I got the US types and my current game still uses the older (IMHO better/visible ones)
04:09:27 <mynetdude> well I wouldn't say older but I suppose brittish kinds... they are bigger it seems
04:09:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> the ones in the picture are based on german signals
04:09:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> although the ones from the DBSet look a little better from the back
04:10:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> british style signals are used when you have "drive on left" enabled
04:11:21 <mynetdude> the default ones is what I'm talking about for right side, so that would be the German style
04:11:38 <mynetdude> in any case the default semophores are more visible ingame than the US types
04:12:02 <mynetdude> I looked at your screenie more carefully and noticed your signal structure is a bit different than I would have anticipated
04:12:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> my junction goes quite closely to the limits of presignals
04:12:48 <mynetdude> for example mainline rightmost track going from bottom to top you have two semophores adjacent
04:12:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> not all situations are handled correctly
04:14:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> the lower signal of the two you are referring to is the old start of the junction, i have rebuilt it a little, and left the signal ther
04:15:56 <mynetdude> so new train sets will not be loaded for existing games?
04:16:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> it'll most likely cause issues
04:17:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> i would advise to run a "resetengines" command from the ingame control
04:17:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> and selling all existing trains
04:18:51 <mynetdude> sell all existing first then reset?
04:20:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> "resetengines" affects the properties of the engines available for building
04:23:04 <mynetdude> hey Eddi|zuHause3 is there a way to get ottd to change the default industry building type/look (I downloaded some industry buildings, but you can only add them by buying the industry)
04:24:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> industries should _really_ be only changed for new games
04:25:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> especially if they include new cargo types
04:25:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> otherwise, you will not get paid anything for these cargos
04:26:30 <mynetdude> well then I won't bother for now
04:26:53 <mynetdude> but is there a process for changing/adding industries to be automatically built? some of them cost 1.4 million just to build
04:27:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> industries appear randomly sometimes
04:27:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> and if you add the grf before starting the game, the new industries will get created by the world generator
04:32:10 <mynetdude> but if I add the new GRF then play an existing game the world generator will add those new industries and those would be messed up?
04:32:37 * mynetdude is just making sure I understand, this is a huge learning curve
04:32:57 <mynetdude> so take all the time you need :) no rush
04:33:08 * mynetdude likes your layout :)
04:33:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> settings made outside of a game will not affect loading an old game
04:34:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> they will only affect creating a new game
04:34:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> hylje: well, assuming he has no games prior to 0.5.0 ;)
04:34:38 <mynetdude> I realize that, thats an ify... but what I am asking is will the new industries in the newGRFS cause any issues by the world creator?
04:35:11 <mynetdude> this is fresh, but we're talking about a 060 game
04:35:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> mynetdude: the world generator will know how to handle new industry types
04:38:32 <mynetdude> in an existing game? Will I get paid for those?
04:38:57 <mynetdude> ok now I have a signalling problem... trains are instantly turning around and are meeting up... so a gridlock essentially
04:39:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> the world generator is never run for an existing game
04:40:56 <mynetdude> so I will not get the new industries in the newGRFs for the existing game then
04:41:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> just don't change industries during the game
04:59:13 <mynetdude> I'm starting to see the trains meet at signals head to head as if the train going one direction leaving the signal block didn't know a train was already on that track/block yet it could have selected a track to its right or left but didn't, any way to solve that?
05:01:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> depending on setup, there are different ways to solve that
05:02:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> one more complex than the other
05:02:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> typically you avoid 2way signals as best as possible
05:03:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> and then different combinations of presignals
05:06:43 <mynetdude> well I wanted two ways on all 3 tracks which includes mainline and sidings on each side, however it seems that MOST of the time it automatically picks the rightmost/closest track that gets it around the one being used although the departing train has already left the station decides to pick the mainline when another train is about to stop I mean from an AI/computer standpoint it could have picked any of the other two tracks open
05:07:27 <mynetdude> sure I could put one ways on the right and left forcing single direction on the siding but then that limits the flow of traffic and then forces trains to follow each other
05:09:30 <mynetdude> the smoothest way is to have any two trains going either the same direction or opposite direction while a third train clears the station mainline or potentially another 3rd train also going the same direction as the two whichever is faster will get through first and it doesn't take long (faster than queing behind trains)
05:26:58 <mynetdude> I'm using my first entry/exit signal... they don't work perfectly but they work
05:28:51 <mynetdude> grr the exit signal is red even though a train has already cleared the next signal block
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05:33:38 <mynetdude> had an extra set of exit sigs
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10:41:29 <odin> i need some help, i have to know how to transfer some merchandise from a truck to a train station?
10:42:10 <planetmaker> build them immediately adjacent so that it is one station
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10:44:10 <Noldo> and use unload or transfer order if the station won't accept it
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10:49:13 <odin> It's good, station accept it
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11:28:15 <Ammler> Hello, changing sonwline should also change houses with or without snow, this happen at least in TTDP, is that a bug in OTTD or a missing feature?
11:29:05 <Noldo> what is the difference?
11:29:28 <Ammler> which category in FS :-)
11:29:31 <peter1138> should work with a grf
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11:30:20 <Ammler> peter1138: I am trying with NACity and trunk, will test it with 0.6.0
11:30:57 <peter1138> without a grf, snowy and non-snowy buildings are actually different IDs, iirc
11:31:42 <Ammler> should TTRS support it?
11:32:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> alpine supports it
11:33:18 <Ammler> does someone know how to fast forward TTDP?
11:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> that won't work
11:38:44 <Yexo> it's a patch for noai, but it needs some changes to economy.cpp
11:39:02 <Ammler> default houses will be sonwi depended on what clima it has while building
11:39:24 <Yexo> the question is now, are these ok or should the subsidies system be rewritten first
11:40:32 <peter1138> ai? i don't touch ai
11:40:54 <Yexo> it's not about ai, it's about the uint16 sid in economy.cpp
11:41:11 <ln> 404 with a redirect, what an oxymoron.
11:41:16 <peter1138> looks like a big patch about AI to me
11:42:07 <peter1138> still has AI all over it
11:42:08 <Yexo> to be precise those lines: for (uint sid = 0; sid < lengthof(_subsidies); sid++) {
11:43:24 <peter1138> you could just do s - _subsidies to get the index... if you really needed the index
11:43:39 <peter1138> can't s just be passed? heh
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11:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> why not call it .diff when it's a diff?
11:49:07 <Roest> it's a bit shy, so lets not call it that
11:50:16 <Yexo> because the webserver is badly configured, and it won't let you view a diff in your browser
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11:58:14 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12847 /trunk/src/fios.cpp: -Cleanup: Identing and variable scope
11:59:20 <Progman> "fios" as in 'first in out second"? *g*
12:00:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> "fuck i'm out [of] sourcefilenames"
12:03:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's like the reverse of the mistake everybody else makes ;)
12:03:44 <ln> peter1138: do you know of any VCS which has version control for commit messages?
12:04:02 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12848 /trunk/src/ (fios.cpp fios.h misc_gui.cpp): -Cleanup/Codechange: Use correct variable types, don't prefix with _ for non-globals, and use implicit enum numbering.
12:04:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> spring cleanup?
12:04:56 <peter1138> i was just looking in there for something else
12:05:11 <peter1138> "int mode" ... wtf is that...
12:05:49 <ln> how about changing the globals prefix from _ to something sane in the whole project?
12:05:51 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12849 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/squirrel_export.sh: [NoAI] -Fix: when .hpp.sq doesn't exists, don't run diff (tnx to Yexo)
12:06:07 <peter1138> ln: cos every file would be changed ;)
12:06:17 <ln> peter1138: is that a problem?
12:06:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's the fun for patchers ;)
12:06:52 <ln> peter1138: i usually take svn update every few weeks, and seems like about half the files are changed every time anyway.
12:07:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> plus, you can "single step" through the updates and have only few files changed each time
12:08:05 <ln> let's use g_ or Bjarni_ or $
12:08:18 <Noldo> maybe few globals at the time
12:08:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> $ is so basic-ish ;)
12:11:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, basic scares people
12:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause3> some basic handbooks are on The Index in germany
12:16:59 <Ammler> I am not able to swich off default houses, shouldn't that work with TTRS parameter 0?
12:17:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> TTRS had parameters for snowline, default houses, roads and bridges, but i don't remember the order
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12:21:04 <Ammler> well, it might also be possible that not every house has support for changing snowline?
12:21:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> i haven't used TTRS extensively... the houses look ugly sometimes
12:22:33 <Maedhros> Ammler: disabling the original houses works fine here. have you started a new game or added it to an existing one?
12:22:47 <Maedhros> because it'll only affect new houses that get built, not existing houses
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12:23:28 <Maedhros> houses don't have to have support for changing snowline, just the snowline in general
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12:28:26 <Ammler> Maedhros: could it be possible, it disables only generating while playing
12:28:39 <Ammler> but they are generated for start?
12:30:12 <Maedhros> no. house building at the start of the game and during the game use exactly the same mechanism
12:32:12 <Ammler> hmm, yeah, I get also still new default buildings
12:34:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> you are doing it wrong :p
12:44:08 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause3: can you prepar a save with working snowline?
12:44:30 <yorick> isn't it wrong using PlayTrainLeaveSound for setting an animation trigger?
12:45:30 <Eddi|zuHause3> Ammler: i have old alpine savegames here
12:45:51 <yorick> I'm trying to fix that manual train leave doesn't trigger animation change bug thing
12:46:31 <peter1138> yorick: move it to Vehicle::LeaveStation?
12:46:37 <peter1138> that should always work
12:46:55 <peter1138> just needs an additional check for vehicle type
12:47:05 <peter1138> you're the one trying to fix it
12:47:16 <yorick> you're the one that caused it
12:47:27 <yorick> and you're the one that's able to fix it sooner
12:47:32 <Ammler> alpine seems to change default houses, that works as far as I know
12:47:37 <peter1138> nope, i'm not able to test anything
12:47:58 <yorick> but you did remove your engine pool patch from the web
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12:50:00 <Maedhros> Ammler: you can't change original houses, you can only override them with new houses that have the same graphics
12:50:25 <Ammler> yeah, thats what alpine does, I assume
12:54:55 <yorick> IsTileType(this->tile, MP_STATION) <-- what do you think it should be loading at otherwise?
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13:00:18 <Maedhros> a rail tile, if it was too long for the station and turned around before leaving
13:01:06 <Maedhros> or a bridge, tunnel or possibly a road if it happens to be on a level crossing
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13:05:53 <yorick> hmm...I better supply the station instead of the tile :)
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13:06:38 <peter1138> it needs the same tile as it started out with, really
13:06:51 <peter1138> that is a platform trigger, iirc
13:07:16 <yorick> ah well...I'll supply both tile and station
13:07:52 <peter1138> heh, technically it could also be a station tile of another station
13:09:22 <Maedhros> peter1138: i suppose you could also check v->last_station_visited to solve that one?
13:10:04 <yorick> v->last_station_visited doesn't guarantee you have the station with animation?
13:11:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> i'd say just make sure the trigger is called for each vehicle in the consist
13:11:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> both on entering as on exiting the station
13:12:00 <Ammler> I assume, those houses aren't default, they are TTRS without nosnow support.
13:12:02 <Maedhros> yorick: yes it does. it also means you can check that if the current tile is a station tile, it belongs to the right station
13:13:15 <yorick> what if 2 stations are placed next to eachother using ajacent stations?
13:13:28 <yorick> tile belongs to other stations than where the train is loading at?
13:13:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> if they are adjacent they are still different
13:13:54 <yorick> (assuming it reversed someway; manual reverse?)
13:14:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> that would be fixed by calling for each vehicle
13:14:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> because after reversing, the train still occupies the same space
13:15:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> meaning both the right and the "wrong" station
13:15:19 <yorick> hmm...is current trunk known to fail compiling?
13:15:35 <yorick> G:/BoTTD/BoTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/trunk/src/fios.cpp: In function `char* FiosBrowseTo(const FiosItem*)':
13:15:35 <yorick> G:/BoTTD/BoTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/trunk/src/fios.cpp:156: error: duplicate case value
13:15:35 <yorick> G:/BoTTD/BoTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/trunk/src/fios.cpp:117: error: previously used here
13:15:41 <Maedhros> apparently, though it's working fine here
13:15:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's peter1138's fault ;)
13:16:57 <peter1138> it's a windows issues, so fuck off :)_
13:17:36 <yorick> openttd should compile under windows!
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13:17:51 <Gekz> everything should compile under windows (sic)
13:17:53 <hylje> what an insightful argument we had here
13:18:08 <Gekz> crosscompile for windows using linux
13:18:13 <Gekz> the perfect fucking waste of linux
13:18:31 <hylje> it avoids the need for actual windows development machines
13:18:52 <Rubidium> yorick: is *does* compile under Windows *if* you have set up the environment correctly
13:19:46 <yorick> Rubidium: it *did* compile *before* 12847
13:20:03 <Rubidium> it still will if you set up the environment correctly
13:20:20 <yorick> blame kaan! he set up my enviroment
13:21:12 <yorick> and what *should* I *change*?
13:21:24 <Yexo> Rubidium: are you sure? looking at the code it just is a duplicate case value
13:21:34 <Yexo> #elif defined(WIN32) || defined(__OS2__)
13:21:34 <Yexo> case FIOS_TYPE_DRIVE: sprintf(path, "%c:" PATHSEP, item->title[0]); break;
13:21:45 <Yexo> and later case FIOS_TYPE_DRIVE:
13:21:48 <Rubidium> you just need a cross compiler that compiles for unix on windows and it'll compile happily
13:23:24 <Gekz> pass the buck and a half
13:24:00 <glx> you are very slow to fix things :)
13:24:03 <yorick> you effectively disabled all win32 and OS2 users at one revision
13:24:13 <glx> it took me 2 minutes to have a compilable trunk
13:24:38 <yorick> 404 won't fix anything
13:26:41 <yorick> will also work for mingw
13:26:42 * Maedhros feels he should point out at this point that trunk is never *guaranteed* to compile perfectly
13:27:03 <yorick> Maedhros is right, but this looks deliberate :p
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13:37:05 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r12850 /trunk/src/fios.cpp: -Fix (r12848): compilation was broken for some platforms
13:37:05 <yorick> thank you for that fios fix
13:37:23 <glx> have fun with the conflict ;)
13:38:41 <glx> my fix is not the Yexo's one :)
13:40:26 <Yexo> glx: it looks the same, but what conflict?
13:41:25 <glx> I changed stuff around #if defined ... #endif
13:42:27 <Yexo> so did I, only you removed FIOS_TYPE_INVALID completely
13:42:49 <Yexo> anyway, what matters is that is compiles again
13:42:52 <glx> no FIOS_TYPE_INVALID is still present
13:43:33 <Yexo> I see, sorry, it is indeed quite different
13:44:43 <Yexo> I used svn diff -r 12850 instead of svn diff -r 12849:12850
13:45:46 <SmatZ> Yexo: you can use svn diff -c 12850 instead
13:46:04 <Yexo> and learned something again :)
13:47:04 *** Osai`off is now known as Osai
13:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... i need real presignals on top of yapp
13:53:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> for the feeling ;)
13:55:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> it would have 2 semantics: 1) when a train approaches a presignal, try to reserve a track from the next mainsignal (end of reserved track)
13:55:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> 2) if that fails, slow down while you approach the red mainsignal
13:56:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> presignals are not safe waiting points
13:57:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> in a next step, these could be used to enforce breaking distance
13:57:49 <peter1138> so basically it tries an early reservation?
13:58:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, a presignal indicates the state of the next mainsignal, so at this point it must be clear if that mainsignal is going to be passed (i.e. reserved)
13:58:56 <Roest> Put it up for internet advertisement. Don't forget to open your ports too! ---- What are ports?
13:59:09 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause3: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
13:59:42 <Fingon> ports are like stations but for boats
14:01:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> ports are what opens an internet service to the public, typically, all ports are closed by default by the firewall and/or router
14:03:07 <Belugas> Fingon, it is called harbour, not port. In french, indeed it is "port", but not in english (or my dictionnary is wrong, which it can be)
14:04:30 <Eddi|zuHause3> "port" as in "seaport" and "airport"
14:04:43 <Maedhros> or the Port of Dover
14:05:08 <Maedhros> they're different things really - a harbour is an area of calm water, while a port is where the ship loads
14:05:17 * Belugas throws his dict. in basket
14:07:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> dict.leo.org translates both "port" and "harbour" with "Hafen"
14:07:20 <Eddi|zuHause3> while "port" has a lot of other meanings
14:07:32 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause3: "port" is a "Hafen"
14:08:13 * Maedhros may be wrong, but that's the way i've always thought of them ;)
14:09:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, seafaring nations may have a more differentiated view on that ;)
14:09:16 <Celestar> well, port is more used in the US, while the UK prefers harour, right?
14:09:33 <Maedhros> come to think of it, a port probably is a harbour, but a harbour (e.g. a natural one) may not be a port
14:10:09 <Belugas> ... me and my stupid comments...
14:11:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, english has lots of objects which have both a french-derived and a german-derived name
14:11:33 <Maedhros> Celestar: i dunno, really. we tend to use port and dock interchangably
14:11:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> harbour could be related to german "Herberge"
14:12:33 <Maedhros> ... except for things like the docks in London which are not in harbours since they're on the river Thames
14:12:42 <Maedhros> Belugas: no, this is really interesting to think about, actually :-D
14:18:52 <Belugas> so docks is just the facility where boats are boarding?
14:19:27 <Belugas> -old keyboard+new keyboard
14:19:31 <Sacro> Celestar: there's a difference between a port and a habour
14:19:53 <Celestar> Sacro: yeah. which once again proves that english teachers have no clue
14:20:35 <Sacro> a harbour tends to be the walled off bit surrounding and protecting the port
14:20:49 <Sacro> a marina tends to be pleasurecraft (teehee)
14:20:55 <Sacro> rather than commercial stuff
14:21:03 <Fingon> don't forget an anchorage
14:21:15 <Celestar> a Haven is Heaven spelt wrongly :P
14:21:19 <Belugas> or a nice girl serving drinks in light clothings
14:21:45 <Sacro> a port tends to be just the bit where the boats load/unload
14:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... not-signalling a station is very unnatural
14:33:13 <Yorick> what error does bottd on vista give?
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14:34:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't know anyone who has vista
14:35:31 <peter1138> but i've not tried bottd
14:36:10 <Yorick> combination of you two?
14:36:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't think there is anything to combine
14:37:21 <Yorick> I've submitted a vista fix recently, and I'm curious whether it actually works or not
14:38:21 <Yorick> msys appeared to have a problem with reserving memory on vista, and also on every system I visit :p, but rebasing msys-1.0.dll worked for me
14:41:24 <Yorick> winavr also had a problem with vista
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14:42:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> vista has a problem with vista
14:42:42 <Yorick> ah, norman antivirus is a problem for winxp with msys
14:43:56 <Yorick> disabling defender under vista might also fix the bottd problem there, but a rebased msys-1.0.dll is more durable
14:45:04 <Yorick> kapersky also makes it fail, list is growing
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14:51:21 <Yorick> pff...should I make a new flyspray item for an already fixed bug which isn't included?
14:53:08 <Rubidium> and when was it fixed?
14:53:26 <Yorick> the manual train skip order doesn't stop station animation?
14:55:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> Yorick: you can also add patches to flyspray
15:09:19 <Yorick> as far as I checked, it does
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15:15:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> why does openttd use 6% CPU when it is paused and minimised?
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15:16:18 <Maedhros> Eddi|zuHause3: drawing, possibly (it doesn't know whether the window is minimised or not)
15:16:36 <planetmaker> But it knows pause mode?
15:17:04 <Maedhros> but that's a function of the game. minimising the window is a function of the window manager
15:17:09 <peter1138> it shouldn't have anything to redraw
15:17:18 <peter1138> nothing should be marked dirty
15:17:28 <peter1138> palette animation on?
15:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> unpausing causes a lot of swapping...
15:18:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> animation appears to be off
15:18:53 <Yorick> palette animation when paused?
15:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> unpaused uses 80% even though the map is almost empty (due to a previous survey i assume this is due to ECS)
15:20:35 <peter1138> you'll ruin my theories
15:21:26 <peter1138> r12844 might be of interest...
15:21:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> older than that
15:21:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> but with a few patches
15:21:52 <Yorick> that's the station animation not every frame check?
15:23:04 <Maedhros> i'm off. see you later
15:23:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> what kind of functions are called when paused?
15:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> it should only be interface functions (mouse updates, keyboard presses)
15:24:01 <Yorick> and if build while pause, also command ticks?
15:24:11 <Roujin> i say what i feel like saying :P
15:24:11 <Gekz> Roujin: its like me saying moin
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15:24:26 <Yorick> you could check, eddi, somewhere at openttd.cpp
15:24:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> Yorick: more likely in the video driver
15:25:08 <Yorick> the functions that are called, I mean
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15:26:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, i'll check around a little later
15:26:07 <Roujin> Eddi: GameLoop() in openttd.cpp
15:26:38 <Roujin> StateGameLoop() is called inside of GameLoop()
15:26:54 <Roujin> StateGameLoop() returns if paused
15:27:28 <Roujin> so basically the stuff in GameLoop is called while paused, and the stuff in StateGameLoop isn't
15:33:08 <Sacro> orudge: put your purple banana away
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15:37:21 <mynetdude> I had so much fun yesterday after all the help you guys gave me, and I've even learned how to use presigs with entry/exit for dual two platformed stations thanks all... you mind if I ask more....
15:37:46 *** roboman has joined #openttd
15:37:52 <Rubidium> you already did ask something more...
15:38:15 * mynetdude needs a new yardstick for self
15:38:52 <Gekz> dragonhorseboy: why are you .. oh
15:38:55 <mynetdude> well some teachers use it to get classroom attentention by cracking it on a student's desk
15:38:57 * Yorick needs to slap normal virus control for detecting a virus in openttd.exe which I just created myself
15:40:19 <mynetdude> well anyway I converted conventional rail to electric and I've got an odd issue... all the signals worked fine before conversion and even after the conversion they still worked until trains started showing up causing one of the trains to bounce back and forth
15:40:19 <dragonhorseboy> yorick and why are you making a virus? :p
15:40:39 <Yorick> I'm not, I'm just trying to compile
15:40:55 <Rubidium> mynetdude: sounds like you missed a piece
15:40:58 <Yorick> because norman removes my files before it manages to strip
15:41:01 <Roest> maybe some tile didnt get converted
15:41:09 <mynetdude> hmm how can I check?
15:41:28 <Rubidium> by converting it again?
15:41:28 <Gekz> Yorick: solution, use a real OS
15:41:31 <Roest> just take the conversion tool and dragndrop over that area
15:41:46 <mynetdude> the tracks ARE open so it should go right through
15:41:59 <mynetdude> I'll try again, but pretty sure its already covered
15:42:22 <Roest> or take a steam or diesel engine and see if it drives through
15:42:23 <Yorick> msys could be compiling a virus into it
15:44:17 <mynetdude> ok why the hell does the game randomly make certain track tiles disappear?
15:44:37 <mynetdude> I've noticed every now and then I have to reconnect track sections and that explains why some of my trains are lost
15:44:52 <Gekz> mynetdude: you have disasters on
15:44:54 <mynetdude> is that supposed to happen?
15:44:57 * dragonhorseboy thinks mynet is making no sense
15:44:57 <Roest> your evil twin with the bulldoze tool
15:45:00 <mynetdude> oh... damn thats dumb
15:45:01 <Gekz> and the ufo is blowing them up
15:45:17 <mynetdude> I like disasters... but I'd like to know about it
15:45:34 <dragonhorseboy> mynet ever heard of a thing called "news" .. quit disabling it
15:45:35 <mynetdude> too bad I can't turn it off for the game...
15:45:48 <mynetdude> dragonhorseboy I get that, but not for the tracks
15:45:57 <dragonhorseboy> mynet...then you don't have it on
15:45:58 <mynetdude> just for the trucks and industries that blow up
15:46:02 <Gekz> mynetdude: disasters are only the UFO afaik
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15:46:13 <dragonhorseboy> because the disaster news DOES tell you when the coal mine blew out or a ufo crashed
15:46:16 <dragonhorseboy> simple as it ;)
15:46:32 <mynetdude> dragonhorseboy yes it does, but it doesn't tell you when your piece of track isn't connected anymore
15:46:48 <dragonhorseboy> mynet...because you're supposed to look at the news when it pop up?
15:47:45 <Yorick> argh...norman virus control finds a virus in lastest trunk
15:48:41 <dragonhorseboy> yorick..does it actually even triggers fdisk or griffin av at all?
15:48:52 <dragonhorseboy> if not then I think 'norman virus control' whatever it is is crap
15:50:51 <Yorick> I'm can't change it :(
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15:53:07 <Tefad> OF-THE-U-S-S-EN-TER-PRISE
15:53:27 <Tefad> make it so m-m-m-make it so
15:53:33 <dragonhorseboy> tefad...you're weird
15:53:43 <Yorick> any online virus scanners known?
15:53:47 <Tefad> you know not of the picard song?!?!
15:54:02 <Roest> captain jean luc picard!!!!
15:54:02 <Tefad> online virus scanners.. didn't those die off?
15:54:07 <Yorick> I know one, but forgot its url
15:54:08 <mynetdude> dang almost 1.5M by 1975 in my game
15:54:21 <Tefad> at least i'm not the only crazy one here.
15:54:32 <Yorick> Roest, you're blind! don't tell me your computer describes movie
15:54:54 <mynetdude> Tefad, you a trekkie?
15:55:38 <Tefad> not really, but i like to watch it
15:55:42 <Tefad> i don't know much trivia ; )
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15:56:01 <mynetdude> Tefad, if you're not a trekkie yet then check out iftcommand.com you never know hanging out with a bunch of trekkies might make you look weirder... already does to me :)
15:56:23 <Tefad> ehh i don't do well on social sites : )
15:56:29 <Tefad> i prefer realtime, such as IRC
15:56:34 <peter1138> patrick stewart rocks
15:57:04 <Yorick> "Trojan found: Tibs.gen199"
16:01:27 <Yorick> omg...I'm blessed with the only virus scanner which reports a virus inside openttd
16:03:02 <Yorick> it doesn't in older revisions, but if a nightly will come out which also reports a virus...
16:03:22 <Yorick> *booooom* no popularity anymore
16:03:38 <mynetdude> Tefad its not just a social site, its a in your face in person (no not really in your face) but its like a "club" if you want to call it that... but anyway :) I do like real time, IRC
16:04:10 <Tefad> i'll stick to watching random ST episodes during the summer with my friend
16:04:18 <Tefad> so far we've tackled TNG and VOY
16:04:29 <mynetdude> VOY is ok, TNG is the best
16:04:35 <Tefad> yeah can't go wrong with TNG
16:04:37 <mynetdude> some of DS9s aren't so bad though
16:04:46 <Tefad> eventually i'd like to watch TOS and ENT
16:04:48 <mynetdude> its the newer ones ugh...
16:05:00 <Tefad> DS9 is like a soap opera in space i hear
16:05:03 <mynetdude> I think its ENT I don't like... never heard of TOS
16:05:12 <Tefad> TOS.. the original series fool
16:05:42 <mynetdude> Tefad yeah I guess DS9 is like soap opera but there are some good episodes not many
16:06:18 <Tefad> i think the episodes with the ship are good, eh?
16:06:29 <mynetdude> Tefad, yeah I know it, fool is my middle name.. I do learn I don't watch ST all the time but knowing what series are what is not hard to learn and I'll get it
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16:06:42 <mynetdude> Tefad I don't remember much of DS9
16:07:11 <Tefad> k, i've only watched a couple of episodes when i was little
16:07:18 <Tefad> it turned me off of star trek : (
16:07:26 <Tefad> i didn't even know voyager existed!
16:07:45 <Tefad> until my friend was like "want to watch star trek voyager" i'm like.. "is that some new movie i don't know about?"
16:07:55 <Tefad> then he's all LOL n00b.
16:08:39 <mynetdude> yeah thats understandable as seeing how poorly they did DS9 (IMHO), like you said you can't go wrong with TNG, Voyager isn't that bad and for the most part I'd watch most of it. I can't wait for the new ST movie at the end of 2008 though :)
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16:19:24 <Yorick> there, another bug fixed :)
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16:22:06 <Roujin> i needed to read the first sentence like 5 times to understand it oO
16:23:19 <Roujin> When clicking to a helicopter that includes orders to any type of heliport to copy them as orders of an airplane all orders are copied including those of goto a heliport.
16:23:47 <Phantasm> Nothing hard in that sentence. ;P
16:24:14 <Roujin> as soon as i read to the end, i forgot what it said at the beginning though
16:24:48 <Phantasm> Improve your 'whatever it is called in engligh' type of memory to handle longer sentences easier.
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16:25:24 <Roujin> I'd rather report to yorick that his sentence is buggy
16:25:40 <Roest> depending on his reading speed, it's the short term or long term memory
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16:26:07 <Phantasm> Roest: It is short term no matter the reading speed really.
16:26:13 <Roujin> why? it's the way to go, you know? hey you, xy has a bug, fix it! :P
16:26:22 <Roest> if he reads really slow?
16:26:51 <Phantasm> Doesn't matter.. The case is under 'work', so it is short term memory.
16:32:23 <peter1138> yes, that's a very poor sentence
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16:57:08 <odin> i have a little problem, there is a subvention for transport of persons between two towns, but i've allready made it, how does it works?
16:59:22 <Roujin> odin: i think that happens if your service is not very good..
16:59:53 <Roujin> anyways, gotta go.. cu later
17:10:57 <mynetdude> does anybody here play Auran Trainz 2006/2004 as well as OTTD?
17:11:03 <mynetdude> or MSTS for that matter?
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17:44:14 <planetmaker> is that known (I guess) or new? Revision 12805
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17:55:06 <Kloopy> There isn't a way to upgrade trains from Electric to Maglev is there? I have to send all the trains to an Electric depot, sell them, and re-create them in a Maglev depot?
17:55:50 <Kloopy> That's really annoying with 150 trains on a network I want to upgrade.
17:55:58 <Kloopy> Each with different orders, etc.
17:56:23 <hylje> you can copy the orders
17:56:33 <cjk> though if it's also for trains dunno
17:56:40 <Kloopy> I don't think it is, cjk.
17:56:52 <Kloopy> hylje, that's still really slow for 150 trains. ;)
17:57:25 <hylje> suck it up, rail upgrades aren't getting easier without much work
17:58:12 <Kloopy> I guess it could work if you allowed a feature to replace Electric with Maglev engines and wagons... then if you use the convert rail tool on a depot, it will do all those train replacements. If you don't have enough replacements setup, the tool won't change the depot from Electric to Maglev.
17:58:52 <yorick> patch is/was being worked upon
17:59:14 <Kloopy> Oh really? I hadn't heard about that one before.
17:59:14 <planetmaker> ^^ But I don't really see the point. Has to be left some work :P
17:59:27 <Kloopy> The work is setting up the 150 train network to begin with. :P
17:59:47 <Kloopy> Re-doing all that work because time has passed and you want to upgrade the train network is frustsrating. :)
18:00:22 <yorick> bugfixing isn't quite motivating if the fixed don't make it to trunk *general message, feel offended at will*
18:02:19 <Roest> so i just started a game but didnt feel motivated to play and left immediatly
18:04:17 <Wolf01> Roest, not life, only Italy
18:05:47 <Wolf01> I don't know, I know only that they are submerged by shit
18:10:05 <mynetdude> yeah going from conventional rail to electric is no easy feat either
18:10:25 <Roest> why not? that's really easy
18:10:27 <mynetdude> you can't put diesel/steam in electric depots :(
18:10:37 <mynetdude> well why not? you can't upgrade the locos
18:11:20 <mynetdude> um, well when I look in the depot where the elec trains come out of I noticed there are diesel trains available, but if you look in the diesel depot you don't see elec trains
18:11:37 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: richk * r12851 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/viewport.cpp: [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: Slight mis-sync disabled colouring of selection tiles for seaplane airports.
18:11:48 <mynetdude> but then again... some trains are still better off running on diesel for cost savings
18:12:19 <Roest> you can upgrade the old depots to electric by using the upgrade tool, same way as for tracks
18:12:19 <mynetdude> so is there an upgrade/replace tool or do you have to buy the train and manually add its orders?
18:12:54 <mynetdude> oh, ok... well that makes a lot of sense and would be easier to have one depot instead of two
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18:19:03 <Roest> that lets you ctrl click in the color selection so that it sets all primary or secondary colors
18:37:03 <mynetdude> how does autoreplace trains in depot work? I click on it but nothing happens
18:47:06 <cjk> “but nothing ever happens” // “and I wonder”
18:47:11 <SmatZ> yorick: still it is not coding style compliant, there should be curly brackets if the statement after 'if' is on the next line
18:47:57 <SmatZ> and a comment for CheckAircraftCanUseStationsInOrder() would be good, too :)
18:51:47 <yorick> order_cmd.cpp ine 451 should be changed to: if (v->type == VEH_SHIP && IsHumanPlayer(v->owner) && _patches.pathfinder_for_ships > VPF_OPF) {
18:51:53 <mynetdude> cjk you probably wonder as much as I do, I wonder if the help files will tell me how to autoreplace? :P
18:52:33 <yorick> if (v->type == VEH_SHIP && IsHumanPlayer(v->owner) && _patches.pathfinder_for_ships < VPF_NPF) { I mean :oops:
18:52:49 <yorick> I came across it while patching, but I couldn't be bothered too much
18:54:26 <SmatZ> yorick: this way YAPF will work not so slowly
18:54:35 <cjk> in soviet russia, you get autoreplaced.
18:54:38 <SmatZ> so the current code is good
18:55:26 <yorick> "hah, cjk, in soviet russia, you get happened!"
18:55:55 <yorick> and npf will also work not so slowly?
18:56:36 <yorick> but npf is excluded from the check?
18:57:12 * yorick is waiting for "<peter1138> shush, you'll break my theories!"
18:57:34 *** peter1138 sets mode: +b *!*yorick@*.adsl.wanadoo.nl
18:57:34 *** yorick was kicked by peter1138 (shush, you'll break my theories)
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18:57:58 *** peter1138 sets mode: -b *!*yorick@*.adsl.wanadoo.nl
18:58:19 <Prof_Frink> peter1138! NewBannage!
18:59:18 <yorick> cjk, hah, in soviet russia, you get +q'ed!
18:59:32 <cjk> I know they'd question you.
19:00:02 <cjk> yorick: actually no, that would be china, not russia.
19:00:07 <yorick> Prof_Frink! StopHidingUnderStoneWhileI'mHere!
19:00:10 <cjk> or rather "rather china than russia"
19:00:29 <yorick> shush! I'm learning chinese!
19:01:55 <yorick> why does npf work better in this case(for ships)?
19:02:43 <cjk> i'd say because on sea, you are not bound as much
19:04:06 <yorick> ah well...it's easy enough to overcome that check by removing orders
19:07:29 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r12852 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix: do not try to draw rail catenary above non-rail station tiles
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19:14:34 <sulai> hi Roest, I set eclipse up to compile ottd
19:14:52 <sulai> without sound and music, because of problems with directX
19:14:53 <yorick> eclipse to compile openttd
19:15:05 <yorick> what operating system?
19:15:10 <sulai> but it works nice.. even debugging is working
19:15:26 *** SickieAway is now known as sickie88
19:15:51 <sulai> Bjarni isn't here, is he?
19:18:24 <Roest> i wish there was a way to import project settings from a makefile
19:18:24 <sulai> I would like to see "shared orders" and "same station" vehicle lists treated as groups
19:18:57 *** Frostregen_ is now known as Frostregen
19:18:59 <sulai> If so, you just add features to groups, not to all separate vehicle lists that are in the game
19:19:44 <sulai> Roest: me too... Was a hard time to get it to where it is now
19:20:03 <sulai> With mingw everything was so simple ;)
19:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> <Roujin> as soon as i read to the end, i forgot what it said at the beginning though <- how would you get through any german sentence that way?
19:21:27 <sulai> What do you think about treating "shared orders vehicle lists" and "using the same station vehicle lists" just as another type of groups?
19:21:38 <yorick> ln, english only!!!@#%$#%$#!!
19:21:56 <yorick> Roest, try msys and mingw
19:22:19 <peter1138> i think you ought to profile it, heh
19:23:04 <ln> When someone goes buy a car in Germany, how does one pay for it?
19:23:07 <sulai> Roest: I set up eclipse as a front end for mingw gcc and mingw dbg
19:23:48 <Roest> under windows a sane person would use vs
19:23:58 <Roujin> Eddi: geez, i was just ranting about that sentence being utterly complicated
19:24:08 <ln> sulai: Insufficient information.
19:24:15 <sulai> Roest: did you name me insane? ;)
19:24:54 <ln> Let's say a car costs 20,000 euros. In what format does the buyer give the money to the seller (which we can assume to be a company)?
19:25:40 <planetmaker> ln: cash or electronically
19:25:51 <ln> Wolf01: you are not from germany.
19:26:52 <planetmaker> or you buy it via credit in a monthly fashion
19:27:06 <ln> ok. i just have the impression that cash is the thing in Germany, and bank transfers not so much, as far as car sales go.
19:27:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> Roujin: what i mean, that would be one of the easier sentences in german ;)
19:28:02 <ln> if the buyer is a foreigner, does that complicate things?
19:28:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> ln: typically, germans pay larger sums per "electronic cash" card (superceded by the "Maestro" system now)
19:29:02 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
19:29:03 <Roest> probably not if you have some kind of trailer to transport it away, if you want to drive your new car away, i guess it's getting problematic
19:29:45 <Bjarni> surprisingly I was just reading what sulai wrote about groups
19:29:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> ln: which basically means the shop owner gets permission to withdraw the money from your bank account
19:30:04 <sulai> What do you think about it?
19:30:26 <Bjarni> it could be worth looking into
19:30:53 <sulai> yep, I think it would have some benefits
19:30:56 <ln> Eddi|zuHause3: interesting, i though Germany is 20 years behind all other countries with card payments.
19:31:19 <Bjarni> clearly it has benefits. I'm wondering if some sideeffects could show up
19:31:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> credit cards are less common in germany
19:31:49 <Bjarni> and people wondering why some vehicles all of a sudden jumped from one group to another one
19:32:20 <sulai> Bjarni: did you have a look at that wiki page? I planned to put groups into containers called "categories"
19:32:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> like a "create group from this list" button
19:33:18 <sulai> Through categories, groups like we know from 0.6.0 could be conserved, and shared orders / same station categories could be handled independent
19:33:26 <ln> Eddi|zuHause3: over here, there is a national card system (called simply "bank card"), and with such a card, one can pay virtually anywhere. and this has been the situation since the 80's.
19:33:50 <ln> Eddi|zuHause3: and it's a rare exception if some small place doesn't happen to accept this bank card.
19:34:19 <sulai> have a look at the dia show on the wiki page ;)
19:34:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> small shops in villages often don't accept such a card here
19:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> and the '80s are a completely different topic ;)
19:35:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> you didn't actually buy cars in the '80s ;)
19:35:13 <Bjarni> sulai: what if a train has orders to go to two different stations and the user wants to make a group of the vehicles for each station?
19:35:31 <ln> let's say "since end of 80's".
19:35:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> your parents applied for one at birth, so that you could get one for your 18th birthday
19:36:05 <Bjarni> and sets replace orders for it for both groups and it's not the same it's being replaced to
19:36:15 <sulai> Bjarni: groups in the categories "shared orders" and "same station" are fully computer generated, the user can't change the trains in that groups
19:36:15 <ln> Eddi|zuHause3: cool. but well, i doubt minors were allowed to drive anyway. :)
19:36:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> that's not the point ;)
19:36:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> the point is that it took 18 years from the order to the delivery
19:36:53 <Bjarni> sulai: yeah but what if those two groups have replace commands that aren't compatible and somehow a vehicle can end up in both?
19:37:16 <ln> Eddi|zuHause3: was it the 18 years old model then, or a newer one?
19:37:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> the model was practically unchanged for a very long time
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19:39:44 <sulai> Bjarni: the replace order needs to be changed slightly: If you give a replace command on a group, all replace commands of the vehicles in that group is overwritten
19:39:44 <Rubidium> slight changes to replace orders are... uhm... impossible
19:39:44 <sulai> * If you give the replace command to a group,
19:39:44 <sulai> * the "protect from autoreplace" button will be deactivated for that group.
19:39:44 <sulai> * overwrite the vehicle's current autoreplace assignment, except those being protected by some other group
19:39:44 <Rubidium> it means vast changes and enormous chances of trouble
19:40:00 <Bjarni> also you haven't told what happens if the autogenerated groups includes a vehicle in more than one group
19:40:19 <Bjarni> because right now we can't handle a vehicle being in more than one group
19:41:50 <sulai> Yes... but this is why there are "categories". The "group" category behaves like groups behave now: one vehicle for one group.... the "shared orders" is also one-to-one.... the "same station" is one-vehicle-can-be-in-many-groups
19:42:25 <sulai> if you click on the dropdown entry, you activate another category and only the groups of that category are listed in the vehicle window
19:42:49 <sulai> so, if you have the "groups" category clicked, everything is like we have it now
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19:43:41 <sulai> if you click the "shared orders" category, you get a list of groups which reflect the current groups of trains which share the same orders
19:44:23 <sulai> if you have one train in many groups and you apply commands on the same train in another group, the old command is overwritten
19:44:58 <Bjarni> this sounds confusing by design
19:45:10 <yorick> I noticed, the spinner widget thingy in the cheat gui that allows you to change date, isn't affected by fs 1404, while it is actually the only thing where you would want such behavior :(
19:45:37 <sulai> basic idea was to handle all vehicle lists as groups, to have a common basis
19:46:00 * dragonhorseboy pokes peter1138 to see why the server always fail after barely a game day :p
19:46:16 <peter1138> i already said, we're investigating
19:46:17 <yorick> rubidium is more of the networking person
19:46:46 <Bjarni> sulai: to be honest I don't think this idea will work as you expect
19:47:05 <dragonhorseboy> sulai..heh on my own maps (although I sometimes do do this in openttd-online too) I often have the trains and most stations named to my own purpose like eg 'welshtown coal train #1' or 'welshtown coal mine' ^-^
19:47:05 <Bjarni> even if it's coded like you tell it should be
19:47:16 <Bjarni> also it's mighty hard to code
19:47:24 <dragonhorseboy> peter....ah ok because it was fun yesterday night and now I noticed its still there but I can't even play .. strange isn't it?
19:47:27 <Bjarni> and sounds like it will use a whole lot of resources
19:47:45 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r12853 /trunk/src/ (elrail.cpp rail.h tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Fix: catenary on tunnel entrances and middle bridge pieces was drawn twice in some cases
19:48:12 <Rubidium> 68.51 126.21 126.21 59341 0.00 0.00 <which mystery function is this?>
19:49:58 <sulai> Hm I think it doesn't take more resources than it does right now... because the vehicle lists are generated right now, too
19:50:57 <peter1138> for gui purposes, yes
19:51:09 <peter1138> not for 'checking if any vehicle needs to go to a depot this tick
19:51:15 <sulai> the shared orders vehicle list does already exist in the game... also the same station vehicle list... vehicles don't change the group if the player doesn't do any action
19:51:24 <Bjarni> autoreplace happens in the background and doesn't generate the station lists or anything like that
19:56:00 <sulai> could you give me a quick introduction to how auto replace happens in the code ;)
19:56:00 <Roest> unvail the mysteries of autoreplace
19:56:00 <sulai> is there some sort of assignment like "train 1 is replaced by SH30"?
19:56:00 <Bjarni> I think I will limit it to how it figure out what to replace to
19:56:02 <Bjarni> not how it actually does the replace once it figured out what to replace to
19:56:02 <Bjarni> basically it calls EngineReplacementForPlayer(), which is turn calls EngineReplacement()
19:56:02 <Bjarni> EngineReplacement() is placed in engine.cpp (like 498 if you have to know)
19:56:22 <sulai> ok... just running eclipse ;)
19:57:34 <Bjarni> here it loops through all the replace orders for the player in question and stops at one with the correct engine (from type) and group. If it fails to find anything then it runs through all of them again and checks if there is something for the all group
19:58:09 <Bjarni> maybe speed could be improved here
19:58:21 <sulai> this is what happens in EngineReplacement() ?
20:01:12 <sulai> This function is called as soon as the player's vehicle enters the depot?
20:01:57 <sulai> "EngineID" identifies the vehicle or just the vehicle type?
20:06:35 <Bjarni> it works on engine types only. The info regarding the vehicle itself is not available here. It only forwards the engine type and group
20:06:59 <sulai> if you apply "replace" on a group like we have in 060, the replace command only applies to that group. Doesn't it?
20:07:27 <Bjarni> well at least that's the idea
20:08:11 <sulai> say you have 2 user made groups... both contain 3 engines of kirby paul.... you cick on one of them do the replace command (say to SH30).. only the trains of that group will be replaced
20:08:30 <sulai> the code doesn't look like that but I think I have tested that some time ago
20:09:42 <Bjarni> if (er->from == engine && er->group_id == group) return er; <--- er->from = kirby, engine = kirby er->group_id = 1, group = 1
20:10:06 <Bjarni> if the vehicle is in group 2 this if doesn't fire
20:11:55 <Bjarni> meaning it keeps on looking for a replace command for a kirby in group 2
20:13:44 <sulai> Hm.. so replace doesn't work on groups, does it?
20:14:10 <sulai> well would be nice if it did ^^
20:14:20 <Bjarni> it compares group number
20:14:29 <Bjarni> meaning it wants the group to be the same
20:14:52 <Bjarni> if it's not the same it will keep on looking for a replace order that has the correct group number
20:15:48 <Bjarni> I see no reason why this shouldn't work
20:19:42 <sulai> I'lll just browse the code a little...
20:20:53 <Bjarni> knowing the current code is always a good place to start
20:21:43 *** Osai`off is now known as Osai
20:21:55 <Bjarni> if you get ideas without looking at the code they can sometimes be great (not limited by thinking about design) but usually it's discarded for being too much work because too much has to change
20:22:44 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r12854 /trunk/src/elrail.cpp: -Codechange: make drawing of rail catenary a bit faster
20:24:31 <dragonhorseboy> hylje+roest...I've been looking at the ttdp source for my current version and a bit of the svn .. still trying to figure out about poking around with it myself to see if I come up with anything interesting or not perhaps heh
20:25:16 <Roest> why you telling that to me?
20:25:52 <DaleStan> I'm more wondering why he's mentioning it here. Patch devs are much easier to find in #tycoon.
20:27:48 <sulai> Bjarni: I think the "handle shared orders and same station as groups" lacks in correct defined autoreplace behavior. Resources are not the problem I think...
20:28:27 <sulai> But it's quite a lot of work because the "one train - one group" concept is embedded very deep
20:30:51 <Bjarni> say a vehicle enters a depot and you need to check is there is a replace order for it based on station/orders/group/global... how would you do it?
20:30:59 <Bjarni> without using more resources?
20:33:01 <sulai> Hm... simple idea (which needs a lot of code change propably): save the "replace command" per-vehicle
20:33:30 <sulai> the "send to depot" or the "send for servicing" is also saved per-vehicle
20:33:46 <sulai> why should the replace command work in another way?
20:34:57 <sulai> it makes the whole thing way more consistent: a command on a group means to give per-vehicle commands on all vehicles in that group
20:40:41 <sulai> well was just an idea ;)
20:40:53 <sulai> maybe it's too hard to implement
20:42:49 <dragonhorseboy> peter I'm still wondering -- how can one type of rail locomotive upset a server's connection at random anyhow? :/
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20:52:41 <glx> dragonhorseboy: you know which engine breaks everything?
20:53:56 <dragonhorseboy> glx...peter said its the class 91's
20:56:21 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12855 /trunk/src/ (11 files): -Codechange: do not use autoptr's for testing whether certain objects can be build, but check it directly in the pool so we do not have to call destructors in the testing phase. Stations still use the autoptr though.
20:57:55 <dragonhorseboy> well afk for a while
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20:58:16 <sulai> Bjarni: can't find any function which calls EngineReplacementForPlayer() ?
20:59:16 <sulai> oh it's there... don't bother ;)
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21:01:51 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge
21:07:30 <sulai> hm... the autoreplace gui is not designed to work as a per-vehicle command =/
21:13:33 <sulai> Hm... ok I think I have enough of groups for now... Bjarni I hope I didn't stress your nerves too much ;)
21:14:02 <Bjarni> something got on my nerves
21:14:07 <Bjarni> but not groups and not you
21:15:02 <sulai> hehe nice to hear that! cya later guys
21:48:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> nooo he's killing my patch :(
21:50:35 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
21:52:30 <Patrick`_> im in ur repo killin ur patch
21:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> you were not ;)
21:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> he changed elrail.cpp :p
21:52:58 <mynetdude> seems like everyone is out to get Eddi|zuHause3's patch
21:53:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> Patrick`_: it's not funny without an appropriate picture
21:54:41 <SmatZ> and I will continue if peter1138 allows
21:55:37 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12856 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Taking r12377 further, ensure that prop 25 is set for all vehicles in the consist before other properties.
22:08:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> @openttd commit 12377
22:08:16 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause3: Commit by glx :: r12377 trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp (2008-03-17 21:49:14 UTC)
22:08:17 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause3: -Fix [FS#1854]: set cached value for vehicle property 25 before other cached values
22:08:51 <glx> Eddi|zuHause3: yes I did not move it up enough ;)
22:09:59 <peter1138> it did fix 1854 though :)
22:16:53 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12857 /trunk/ (12 files in 4 dirs): -Fix [FS#1948]: remove the last uses of AutoPtr in the station code.
22:17:45 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12858 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Add: small piece of code that can help hunting desyncs. Has to be enabled by --enable-desync-debug=1 though.
22:19:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> what exactly is an autoptr anyway?
22:19:50 <Rubidium> it calls the destructor of some object when it goes out of scope
22:40:48 <mynetdude> hey does anybody have a patch to override town authority build prevention?
22:41:07 <Tefad> patch.. isn't there a cheat
22:41:10 <mynetdude> I need to make my stations longer, but they won't permit
22:41:20 <mynetdude> whatever, cheat works
22:41:33 <mynetdude> which works better? bribery or trees?
22:41:52 <SmatZ> depends how much trees you can plant
22:41:55 <mynetdude> and trees don't always work
22:42:17 <SmatZ> if you can remove all trees and replant them to have good reputation
22:42:17 <mynetdude> well there's gotta be a bettery way around this, this is silly
22:42:39 <SmatZ> or have good rating at stations in the town
22:42:44 <mynetdude> how can I find out about rep rating?
22:42:47 <SmatZ> it will increase your reputation, too
22:47:48 <mynetdude> what will? stations?
22:47:55 <mynetdude> how can I check my rating with the town?
22:48:48 <SmatZ> mynetdude: click on the town sign
22:49:10 <SmatZ> and then on Local authotity
22:50:24 <mynetdude> ah ok didn't notice that before
22:50:28 <mynetdude> well my rating sucks
22:50:49 <mynetdude> but I can't improve it without improving rail service
22:55:24 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12859 /trunk/src/ (town.h town_cmd.cpp): -Fix: make the town rating tests use less memory and much quicker; from 13% to unnoticable in the profile in games with lots of towns and lots of very active AIs.
22:56:36 <Sacro> Anyone here understand set thoery?
22:57:11 <Rubidium> 'here' as in 'comes regularly here', then yes
22:57:13 <mynetdude> well I guess I won't be upgrading in Linntown for awhile :(
23:03:07 <Zuu> Sacro: what is it in set theroy you are into? (I'm probably not much of help, only have basic set knowledge from the mathematics of civil enginering)
23:03:20 <Sacro> Is S surjective or bijective?
23:03:28 <Sacro> S = {(1,hi),(1,lo),(-1,lo)} <- is it surjective / injective, both or neither, I don't think it's a function, hence neither
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23:03:59 <Zuu> not something I'm familar with.
23:05:29 <Rubidium> it's about can just map X to Y and can you map Y to X unambiguously
23:06:16 <Rubidium> as some X (1) can result in multiple different Y (hi, lo) it's not *jective (don't know which one is which)
23:06:39 <Rubidium> same that lo maps to 1 and -1
23:07:15 <Sacro> Rubidium: so it's not a function
23:08:03 <Rubidium> doesn't necessarily need to be a function
23:09:16 <Sacro> it can't be *jective unless it's a function
23:09:42 <Rubidium> a mapping is (imo) a function
23:10:51 <Sacro> but a mapping can only go from 1 object
23:10:57 <Sacro> whereas 1 maps to more than 1
23:11:08 <Sacro> and thus stops it being a function
23:15:58 <Yexo> no, a mapping can be from multiple objects to multiple objects
23:16:42 <Yexo> the example you give above is not surjective, since 1 maps to both hi and lo, and also not injective, since both 1 and -1 map to lo
23:16:53 <Zuu> Goodnight, got to have some sleep and continue with the queueing theory stuff I'm studying atm. :)
23:17:46 <Yexo> no, it's bijective iff it's both surjective and injective
23:21:16 <Sacro> Yexo: no, those terms only apply to functions
23:24:08 <Yexo> Sacro: I quote from A friendly introduction to analysis: "A function f, often called a mapping,..."
23:25:46 <Yexo> but you're right I messed *jective up
23:26:48 <Yexo> they can't be applied here, since the example he gave is not a function/mapping, since there are two different points with the same first coordinate
23:36:19 *** planetmaker is now known as pm_away
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