IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-04-15
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00:47:47 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: richk * r12715 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (275 files in 22 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r12351:12644.
01:03:49 * orudge has tried his repository OpenTTD code with a variety of old OpenTTD games going back to pre-0.1
01:03:55 <orudge> and I'm pleased to see it either works or fails gracefully :)
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07:09:04 <Forked> Celestar: how did it go at work yesterday? =p
07:09:17 <Celestar> not too bad actually
07:09:33 <Celestar> I've expected things to go worse
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08:31:06 <Rubidium> extspotter: sleeping
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09:11:46 <planetmaker> err. wrong window :P
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09:35:23 <Kloopy> What ever happened to some patches I saw months ago for "diagonal" terraforming. Anyone seen them recently?
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12:25:58 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: frosch * r12716 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Do not compare StationIDs with DepotIDs or WaypointIDs.
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13:10:13 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: frosch * r12717 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r11107): Check the TILE_NOT_SLOPED flag of the _north_ tile of multi-tile houses to decide if autoslope is allowed.
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13:43:24 * Celestar lets out an unearthly yell
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13:49:47 * planetmaker adds a rumble from the lower planes of the spheres
13:54:08 <Belugas> Aylomen, why did you "bolded" paper that way?
13:55:23 <Gekz> well, at least you know you're reading about paper
13:55:31 <Belugas> only the first occurence would have been enough
14:00:19 <Belugas> apart from that, i do not see anything wrong
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14:14:12 <Gekz> trying to use the alpine climate with Pikka's basic industries
14:14:16 <Gekz> its not working out too well >_>
14:15:29 <Gekz> for some reason it the map generates normal oil wells
14:17:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> they both use newindustries features, it's not expected to go well at all
14:17:48 <yorick> do any openttd versions for puppy linux exist?
14:18:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> yorick: does it have a compiler?
14:18:22 <Gekz> yorick: do not use puppy linux
14:18:29 <Gekz> you will not get a working version of openttd for it
14:18:54 * Gekz knows the developer of Puppy and used to contribute
14:19:04 <yorick> hmm...isn't there anything that can boot from usb pendrive and runs openttd?
14:19:32 <Gekz> and can be installed to a usb
14:19:45 <peter1138> hmm, openttd livecd!
14:19:48 <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause2: is there a patch to slow down the speed that days change?
14:19:59 <Gekz> peter1138: I'm already planning to make it lol
14:20:01 <peter1138> Gekz: turbo button :D
14:20:02 <yorick> I need something that also runs virtualized :)
14:20:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> Gekz: yes, it is called daylength patch
14:21:48 <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause2: I suppose you use it?
14:22:30 <yorick> ooh-puppy can run wine!
14:23:02 <Gekz> I made the only "working" version of wine in 2 years
14:24:09 <yorick> get me something else that can 1.boot from usb 2.run virtualized from usb 3.both without changing the host system :)
14:26:02 <yorick> does it run virtualized aswell?
14:26:44 <Gekz> what OS can't be run virtualised
14:27:13 <Gekz> yorick: how familiar are you wiht linux?
14:27:34 * yorick quickly hides under stone
14:27:55 <Gekz> you look in /usr/local in puppy
14:28:04 <Gekz> but almost the entire OS is in there
14:35:06 <peter1138> Gekz: does puppy compile everything locally then?
14:35:24 <peter1138> or is the packager an idiot?
14:35:25 <Gekz> the idiot developer likes to move things there
14:35:35 <Gekz> its not even /usr/local/bin
14:35:45 <Gekz> its /usr/local/soemthingrandom/somethingworse/abinary/binary
14:35:53 <Gekz> and all the libraries are scattered
14:35:58 <peter1138> so they're a windows user really
14:37:18 <yorick> puppybackground,...puppymirror...remotedesktoppcclient...lib...man...Dotpupdownloader...apps...bin
14:38:37 <yorick> with ls, it's even worse
14:39:36 <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause2: how long are your days on OpenTTD?
14:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> x4 in my last game
14:40:46 * Gekz hasnt used the patch yet
14:41:01 <Gekz> ah, 4 times as long as default
14:49:52 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12718 /branches/noai/ (6 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AIVehicle::GetCurrentSpeed
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15:00:56 <yorick> 32bpp screenshots are terribly big
15:01:40 <yorick> and I mean...1.6 MB /screenshot
15:04:23 <Belugas> couild it be that's because there's a lot more infos/colors to capture??
15:05:20 <Celestar> is that already compressed?
15:05:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> theoretically, a 32bpp picture that uses only 256 colours should compress to the same size as a 8bpp picture using 256 colours
15:05:35 <Belugas> wow... a screenshot of my desktop is JUST 7.6 meg...
15:05:42 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12719 /branches/noai/src/ (ai/ai_gui.cpp players.cpp):
15:05:42 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: finished the Reload AI button in AIDebug Window.
15:05:42 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Note: Now there is no longer need for you to ever shut down OpenTTD while creating an AI.
15:05:42 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: Just hit Reload when you made a code change, the company is killed and restarted with your latest code.
15:07:13 <yorick> Belugas...wow...mine is only 200kb(png)
15:12:13 <Tefad> Eddi|zuHause2: i find that rarely to be the case
15:12:59 <Tefad> (unless you palletize first, but then it's no longer 32bpp ; )
15:13:16 <yorick> hmm...I should put my screenshots online somewhere
15:13:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> Tefad: just shows the compressing algorithms still allow for some improvement
15:16:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> but honestly, even a trivial compressing algorithm, if it combines 4 byte and sorts for occurance, should yield a result similar to a palette
15:18:15 <Tefad> sometimes the color sequence is changed to achive better compression
15:18:50 <Tefad> not possible for stuff like 8bit ottd graphics ; )
15:20:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's why i said with sorting... you take the highest occuring {4 byte, colour}-pattern, and assign it the lowest [Huffman]number
15:21:29 <Tefad> i've written a huffman codec with file implementation in java.. it was.. interesting
15:21:39 <Tefad> kind of crappy though blocksize = filesize
15:22:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, huffman code is not very speed-efficient when dealing with bytes
15:22:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> so they'd probably use other algorithms
15:23:07 <Tefad> arithmetic encoding would be slightly better iirc
15:23:40 <Tefad> lzma ppm are pretty good algorithms today
15:29:22 <nicfer> 8bit openttd graphics? so, will be possible to port ottd to the NES? lol jk
15:33:00 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12720 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_vehicle.cpp ai_vehicle.hpp ai_vehicle.hpp.sq): [NoAI] -Add: functions to get the capacity/current load of a vehicle given a cargo type.
15:34:14 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12721 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_engine.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: also check articulated parts when determinine the capacity of an unbuilt vehicle.
15:37:21 * yorick acidentally deleted over 100 meg of saves
15:37:53 * planetmaker is reminded thus to get a new backup disc...
15:39:38 <yorick> data recovery utility is looking for files to get back :) I deleted the backup dir instead of the regular dir
15:42:27 <yorick> pfew...it managed to restore everything
15:42:40 * planetmaker feels also relieve.
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15:43:30 <yorick> why do you feel relieve for me?
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15:46:59 <yorick> my openttd dir began to take over 1 gb, so I thought about moving it to external hd
15:48:00 <Sionide> i remember when it was two floppy disks
15:48:29 <yorick> grfs quickly take up my space, with some saves
15:48:51 <Sionide> and giant screenshots of huge maps? :p
15:49:11 <Sionide> saved to bmp of course!
15:49:38 <yorick> that would seriously hurt to the flashdrive
15:50:55 <yorick> wonderfull how much you can get on the internet
15:51:03 <yorick> there is almost more data than storage on i
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16:08:12 <Forked> after the reconnect =)
16:08:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, but you reconnected before you said you'd leave :p
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16:11:41 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12722 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add (or -Feature for yorick): added AITile::IsSteepSlope(), AITile::IsHalftileSlope() and AITile::GetComplementSlope()
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17:33:52 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
17:34:08 <extspotter> Are you playing online or something?
17:37:45 <hylje> as a matter of fact yes
17:38:09 <Digitalfox> YESYES... I WAS ADMITTED TO UNIVERSITY =0
17:38:32 <Digitalfox> Now hard study to get ready :(
17:40:03 <Digitalfox> Well I work already and have more than 24 years, so I had to make special exams to prove I can enter :)
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17:41:12 <Bjarni> I thought it sounded odd considering my impression of your age
17:42:44 <Bjarni> Digitalfox: you are now a special case
17:43:19 <Belugas> [13:42] <@Bjarni> we noticed ages ago <--- hoo.... a joke :D
17:43:23 <Digitalfox> Portugal is having a hard time and higher education is needed to have qualifications to work on IT freely..
17:43:57 <Bjarni> the same goes for Spain and Italy
17:44:03 <Bjarni> it's a serious issue >_<
17:44:25 <yorick> just 11 minutes too late
17:44:28 <Digitalfox> While I have lot's of certifications.. Like MCSE, CCNP and others most companys now want a guy with higher education to mantain there networks
17:44:57 <Digitalfox> So don't have a choise.. But I do think higher education is always better :)
17:45:19 <Bjarni> that's why I'm aiming at a master degree
17:45:36 <Digitalfox> Bjarni I'm thinking doing the same also :)
17:45:44 <Digitalfox> More is never less ;)
17:46:00 <Bjarni> I will beat you to finish it
17:46:20 <Digitalfox> well 3+1 years.. So you have 4 years to do it ==
17:47:05 <Bjarni> uni will kick me out if it takes me another 4 years
17:47:26 <Bjarni> would fail to meet the 5 year limit for going from bachelor to master
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19:10:54 <Belugas> finally the beast compiles :D
19:11:30 <Belugas> the stuff i'm workig on :)
19:31:13 <yorick> wow...DO NOT EXECUTE THE INSTALLER....(new line)....Execute the installer?....(confirmation buttons: yes/no/cancel)
19:31:37 <yorick> *scrolls right* ...UNLESS YOU TRUST IT
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19:48:26 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: richk * r12723 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/ (53 files in 4 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r12645:12656.
19:54:08 <dih> hylje: you should not eat it...
19:54:36 <peter1138> the grf says STOP for a reason
19:55:22 <peter1138> (and yes, it is a 'bug' in dbsetxl)
19:55:37 <dih> i thought that was kinda obvious :-D
19:56:32 <yorick> oh noes...roest....it will go in our metals corroding them!
19:56:45 <peter1138> "lololololol" "LOL ROFL LOL ROFL"
19:56:57 <peter1138> you guys have intelligent conversation, i see
19:57:12 <hylje> all the time dear peter
19:57:22 <Roest> i'm trying to bring the bettergraphs up to trunk, last patch is like 10400
19:57:32 <Roest> so some stuff disappeared
19:58:15 <dih> peter1138: no - just funny
19:58:40 <glx> theorically the grf should not allow that kind of train to start
19:59:10 <Belugas> Roest, the stuff might not have dissapeared, but changed placed, most of the time
19:59:13 <peter1138> alas that feature was introduced later, i believe
19:59:54 <Roest> yea i know, i'm down to very few compüile errors
20:00:24 <Roest> cant find anything to fix : const EngineInfo *ei = EngInfo(e);
20:00:57 <peter1138> include engine_func.h, probably
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20:02:07 <Roest> thanks, bah the search funktion in eclipse isnt too reliable it seems
20:04:27 <Roest> ok the bettergrpahs stuff compiles now, now only some strange errors in the original graph code remain, that compile fine alone
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21:01:44 <Belugas> and here i go back home...
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21:30:25 <nicfer> one question, if the ds port of ottd gets multiplayer, it would be compatible with the current servers?
21:30:51 <nicfer> with map sizes 128x64 or inferior
21:31:28 <Digitalfox> nicfer I think so, but I'm not a dev so don't take my word :)
21:31:47 <Lakie> I'd imagine as long as the version is the same and the map size on server are the same, it coult?
21:32:09 <Lakie> But, developers would know more about that.
21:37:15 * Roest bangs head against wall
21:43:18 <peter1138> depends how much is removed for the DS port
21:45:02 <Lakie> I'd imagine both would need to have roughly the same features or atleast the ability to process them even if it doesn't have the interface to call them?
21:45:59 <Lakie> I suppose its not quite like TTDpatch though, so it doesn't need everything as the server should handle most of the processing?
21:47:01 <peter1138> they all need to have exactly the same features
21:47:21 <peter1138> and all machines handle all the processing
21:47:53 <Roest> someone feel like giving me a clue?
21:48:06 <Lakie> Ah, so like TTDpatch they do need the functions for those actions, wouldn't require the interface though, as even if it can't issue that command, it could still process it?
21:48:21 <Lakie> Again, this is based on thoery, and peter will correct me.
21:48:39 <peter1138> yeah, as long as the core is the same, the gui side doesn't matter
21:49:15 <Lakie> nicfer: does that help you?
21:50:01 <Roest> i can give you a diff to see it yourself
21:51:06 <peter1138> you haven't described a problem
21:51:48 <Roest> basically some stuff that compiles fine when just checked out butnow gives error with the patch and some additional includes before
21:52:31 <Roest> some compares between int types it doesnt like
21:54:24 <peter1138> that's like "my email isn't working"
21:55:01 <peter1138> what happens? "nothing"
21:55:13 <peter1138> ok, do you get an error message? "yeah"
21:55:25 <peter1138> what does it say? "don't know, i didn't look"
21:55:42 <peter1138> sorry, went off on a customer rant then ;P
21:55:44 <glx> without the actual errors it's hard :)
21:56:14 <Roest> line 1209 would be line 8 here
21:57:42 <Roest> INVALID_DATAPOINT is defined so: static const int64 INVALID_DATAPOINT = INT64_MAX;
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22:04:38 * peter1138 knows not, and is going to sleep
22:06:02 <SmatZ> why don't you define INVALID_DATAPOINT as OverflowSafeInt64 ?
22:07:29 <Roest> actually that's not the point, the problem is that is the original code in trunk that compiles fine, just some additional includes and some code before it lead to these errors
22:10:53 <SmatZ> static const OverflowSafeInt64 INVALID_DATAPOINT(INT64_MAX); // Value used for a datapoint that shouldn't be drawn.
22:10:58 <SmatZ> this is the code from trunk
22:11:05 <SmatZ> defined as OverflowSafeInt64
22:11:49 <Roest> thanks for the clue i guess
22:12:01 <Patrick`_> I want an epic mount for my coal
22:12:14 <Roest> thing is that patch is so old, the removal line still had it as int64
22:13:51 <Roest> nice two hours wasted on that
22:14:14 <nicfer> why openttd's MP uses client processor cycles for doing networking tasks?
22:14:21 <nicfer> shouldn't the server do that?
22:14:51 <Patrick`_> some things can't be offloaded
22:15:04 <SmatZ> all clients have to compute whole world
22:15:19 <SmatZ> else you would end with very high bandwidth needs
22:15:26 <Patrick`_> otherwise the server would have to send a savegame every tick
22:15:35 <Patrick`_> anywhere up to 100 mbit per client
22:16:14 <nicfer> I heard that the client is like a passive server or something
22:18:24 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12724 /branches/noai/bin/ai/regression/ (regression.nut regression.txt): [NoAI] -Fix r12720: also add regression test for new functions
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22:20:57 <nicfer> so, is possible to do instead of a lot of small servers one bigger server where all the players are in? like in a MMORPG
22:21:36 <Patrick`_> the map size is a problem
22:22:04 <SmatZ> everything is possible, but for this, you would need really deep and wide changes into the game code
22:22:10 <Patrick`_> unless you just did 2048x2048 and had a buttload of clients
22:22:25 <Patrick`_> I don't imagine it would take too many changes to make ottd servers mesh like an irc network
22:22:39 <Patrick`_> have one "master" with 8 "intermediates" each of which has 8 clients
22:22:53 <Patrick`_> 64 companies on a max sized densely-industrialised map isn't too much of a headache
22:23:30 <Patrick`_> SmatZ: the problem is that people naturally wantto build lines as long as possible, but you can't combine that with the gigantic map size of an MMO
22:24:03 <nicfer> SmatZ: like increasing client limit to 60 and max companies to... a quantity limited only by color limit
22:24:32 <Rubidium> nicfer: other limits come before the color limit
22:24:54 <nicfer> this would be better for keeping the servers safe+
22:25:20 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r12725 /3rdparty/squirrel/include/squirrel.h: [Squirrel] -Fix: another MSVC warning
22:25:51 <nicfer> instead of 60 admin for 60 servers they would be on one server, working by turns
22:26:19 <SmatZ> for really big maps, you couldn't receive information about whole map - only the part you are interested in... you really don't want to download 1GB map and receive 10MB of changes every second
22:26:29 <SmatZ> not talking about random() consistency
22:26:45 <nicfer> so always will be there an admin to stop unfair players
22:27:06 <SmatZ> and also, everywhere you suppose you have 32bit tile index
22:27:35 <Ammler> most servers runs without admin
22:27:40 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12726 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_town.cpp town.h town_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#1877]: overflow causing strange building behaviour in towns.
22:28:05 <Patrick`_> SmatZ: yes, but how do you approximate what part of the map you are interested in?
22:28:15 <Patrick`_> people always build as long a train line as possible
22:28:26 <Patrick`_> I guess you could do trains crossing off the edge of the map
22:28:42 <nicfer> Ammler: yes, and they get screwed up because some lurker enters and destroy everything
22:29:12 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12727 /branches/noai/ (10 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix (API CHANGE): return -1 to indicate invalidity, instead of 0 or -1, depending on the class
22:32:15 <SmatZ> Patrick`_: talk to nicfer, I am not defending his idea at all
22:32:51 <Patrick`_> it's a good idea. I look forward to seeing his patch
22:35:00 <Patrick`_> at least a half-assed attempt towards a buggy alpha patch will give people the chance to see it work
22:35:01 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12728 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (12 files): [NoAI] -Codechange: always let functions return Money when they return something that can be quantified as money.
22:35:11 <Patrick`_> fr'ex, I did a 5-line patch once
22:35:14 <teeg2> hrm. I see I forgot to quit my irc client at work :(
22:35:27 <Patrick`_> it's in trunk, and it's blatantly not any of my original stuff
22:35:32 <Patrick`_> but to see the idea in practice
22:35:34 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: I have not seen teeg.
22:35:44 <Patrick`_> plus it'll all be obsoleted anywa
22:35:51 <SmatZ> teeg2: you don't seem to be active at all here
22:36:48 <teeg2> SmatZ: I didn't say anything the few hours I was at work, I was too busy reading my first thread (and its responses) on the forum. and I was afraid people here would bite if they knew I was the one who started muttering about OO :P
22:37:43 <teeg2> (and tgr is apparently taken/reserved, so I can't really use that nick)
22:38:17 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12729 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_engine.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix r12727: one compiler warning (BAD TRUEBRAIN, BAD BAD TRUEBRAIN)
22:38:37 <SmatZ> I guess people here (with few exceptions) are not against OO
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22:44:06 <teeg2> as long as it's used right, I presume :P
22:46:50 <nicfer> I have a better idea - interserver admins
22:48:10 <nicfer> so an admin from server B can help if server A is being attacked
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22:49:02 <nicfer> other question is replacing ottd's chat with a irc client
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22:52:30 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12730 /branches/noai/bin/ai/regression/completeness.sh: [NoAI] -Fix: the regression completeness checker did not understand Valuate, thus gave some false positives.
22:59:40 <nicfer> what do you think about those two ideas?
23:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> both sound like total rubbish
23:00:21 <nicfer> instead of a big server, small servers that are interconnected
23:01:11 <nicfer> with an irc client inside ottd it will not be necesary to connect to the server for joining
23:01:28 <nicfer> also you will be able to chat between servers
23:03:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> it sounds even more rubbish the more you explain
23:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> plus, autopilot already implements an IRC <-> OTTD bridge
23:03:51 <nicfer> but it isn't implemented in all servers
23:04:17 <nicfer> so interchatting would be impossible
23:04:58 <Yexo> nicfer: why would I want to chat with someone on another server?
23:07:02 <Yexo> if I want to meet people, I'll go to a cafe or something
23:07:07 <nicfer> that is because MMORPGs are popular
23:07:18 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r12731 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r12726): copying a 16bit array into 32bit wouldn't work
23:08:02 <nicfer> also, not every OTTDer lives at the back of your house
23:08:53 <Yexo> When I play multiplayer, I like to chat with the other players about the current game etc, but not with some random other person also playing at that moment
23:09:24 <Roest> that's where the other idea comes in
23:09:29 <Yexo> for all other chats, we already have the #openttd irc channel
23:09:52 <nicfer> not every OTTDer is here
23:10:00 <Yexo> that totally unrealistic idea about the gigantic maps?
23:10:18 <Yexo> no, and not every OTTDer will chat on an ingame chat
23:10:20 <nicfer> also, how do I find a friend mine where is he?
23:10:43 <Yexo> mail him, phone him, talk to him to get on irc, go to his house, etc :P
23:11:20 <nicfer> suppose he doesn't have cellphone, mail, he lives far, etc
23:11:35 <Roest> wait, he doesnt have mail but plays online?
23:11:35 <nicfer> or just you don't know him
23:11:46 <Yexo> he can get irc if het can get openttd
23:12:00 <Yexo> if you don't know him, don't call it a friend :)
23:12:26 <nicfer> I call friend every one I know in online games
23:12:58 <Yexo> ok, but if they can get openttd to work online, downloading and installing an irc client won't be too difficult for them either
23:13:33 <nicfer> in real life, my friends doesn't play ottd
23:14:07 <glx> introduce them to it, and they will be addicted :)
23:21:14 <teeg2> I would actually prefer it if there wasn't any economy, so I could just concentrate on building. That's enough fun for one day, I don't want to have to fend off people who want to bug me while I'm in the building zone as well.
23:25:41 <Yexo> teeg2: go playing singleplayer :)
continue to next day ⏵
