IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-04-16
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00:08:12 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: richk * r12732 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/ (62 files in 4 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r12657:12672.
00:15:21 <nicfer> why the drag&drop purchasing land single player only? Even so, lurkers can use rails or massive clicking the signs
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01:55:07 <k-man_> do you still need the original data files to play openttd?
01:55:57 <k-man_> is that documented somewhere on the website?
01:56:23 <Belugas> not on www.openttd.org, tough
01:56:40 <k-man_> just wanted to know how to install it
01:57:07 <Belugas> there is an installer, if you want the 0.6.0 release
01:57:24 <k-man_> does it just look for the locally installed data files?
01:57:44 <Belugas> otherwise, copy the nightlies on a folder, grab your original data files, put htem on a subfolder called data and...
01:59:37 <Belugas> maybe the wiki has an entry for that...
01:59:41 * Belugas checks, just to be sure
02:02:28 <Belugas> but it's not very convincing
02:11:11 <nicfer> hmmm I think that instead of coding a music player in ottd we should make something that opens your favorite music player and control it from inside the game
02:11:36 <k-man_> whats left to be done so that the original files are not required?
02:12:06 <Belugas> be my guess, nicfer. I like it when users are saying "we" and when they are actually working on stuff :D
02:12:24 <Belugas> music is not done at all,
02:12:37 <k-man_> but is the music necessary?
02:12:49 <Belugas> a lot of sprites are not done either ( estimate around 50%, iirc)
02:12:59 <k-man_> Belugas, oh, thats a shame
02:13:31 <nicfer> so the jukebox in ottd would work like a remote control of your favorite music player
02:13:33 <k-man_> just meant that its a big task
02:15:17 <Belugas> like... totally who cares?
02:15:39 <Belugas> are you going to code it?
02:15:55 <Belugas> don't ever use the word "we" in that case
02:16:28 <Belugas> k-man_, it will happen one day, i'm sure. Just that i do not see it coming soon
02:16:50 <Belugas> and i do not want to advertise an estimate either ^_^
02:16:55 <k-man_> Belugas, the wiki seems to indicate that there is progress being made
02:17:05 <Belugas> i do not refute that at all.
02:17:12 <Belugas> in fact, they are doing good
02:17:15 <k-man_> Belugas, but from what i can see, your estimate was correct, about %50
02:18:51 <k-man_> but thats just from what i gleaned from the wiki
02:18:56 <k-man_> who knows how up to date that is
02:19:08 <k-man_> the thread on the forum is very active though
02:20:16 <Belugas> zephyris might be the best one to ask
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02:44:03 <Belugas> good evening governor
02:44:27 <governor> I am new to the whole ttd business
02:44:54 <governor> but I was wondering if it is possible to have trucks take iron ore to a dock, then have the dock take them to another dock, where they are trucked to a furnace
02:44:59 <governor> or whoever processes iron ore.
02:45:24 <Belugas> Yeah! A new addicted!
02:45:59 <Belugas> "then have the dock take them"...
02:46:19 <governor> the iron mine is out of range of the dock
02:46:31 <Belugas> oh... yeah, it's possible
02:46:32 <governor> i want to put ore on the dock so a boat can transport it
02:46:45 <Belugas> you can use the transfers
02:46:48 <governor> i had a depot next to the dock, but the ore sat in there, it didnt magically transport to the dock :[
02:46:53 <Belugas> but do not expect your truck to make money
02:47:06 <governor> yeah i read part of the wiki
02:47:13 <governor> but my ore never eneded up in the dock :[
02:47:50 <Belugas> dock-alone->unload(or transfer)
02:48:22 <governor> i couldn't give an order for a truck to go to a dock though
02:50:36 <Belugas> you need a truck stop side by side with the ship doc
02:52:27 <governor> ah, right next to it?
02:53:06 <Belugas> so they will bcome one station
02:54:20 <governor> are people that play online really good?
02:54:28 <Belugas> no, my name is Belugas, not Roger
02:54:37 <governor> and stop calling me shirley
02:54:50 <Belugas> dunno about online people
02:55:03 <governor> i fear it because i can beat the AI
02:55:03 <Belugas> nor single nor online
02:55:07 <governor> or at least im making more money
02:55:15 <Belugas> but as they say, "try it for yourself"
02:55:22 <Belugas> becuase i code, governor
02:55:34 <Belugas> too mucyh work and too little time
02:58:07 <De_Ghosty> yes people play online is good
02:58:16 <De_Ghosty> if all u care is money
02:58:20 <De_Ghosty> do what those ppl do
02:58:29 <De_Ghosty> from one end to the other
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03:06:18 <Belugas> governor, iv'e been told that coop games are fascinating
03:06:19 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: belugas * r12733 /trunk/src/town_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Merge two more Widgets arrays (town views ) into one.
03:06:43 <governor> I can't convince any of my friend this game is interesting >_>
03:08:06 <Tefad> governor: sometimes i have that problem ; )
03:08:11 <Tefad> they're just not nerdy enough
03:08:26 <Tefad> they got ruined by ADHD-inducing games of modern era
03:08:45 <Tefad> /some/ though find comfort in playing games like this
03:08:58 <governor> i wish the ai wasnt AS stupid
03:09:07 <governor> with their unreasonable zig zags
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03:10:31 <Gekz> doesnt switzerland use the 12.3456,78 numeric notation?
03:15:13 <Belugas> DaleStan : do callbacks 37,38 and 3A can really return 15 bits results?
03:15:42 <Belugas> i though that D0XX means that XX is a byte and therefore only 8 bits
03:16:41 <Belugas> 3A, i may agree, regarding the 400 addition detailled in the wiki
03:16:50 <Belugas> but the two others...
03:38:32 <Gekz> whats teh correct way to specify where the mingw version of zlib is that I have compiled?
03:38:45 <Gekz> LDFLAGS="-L/home/brendan/cross-utils/lib -L/home/brendan/cross-tools/lib/libpng.a" CFLAGS="-I/home/brendan/cross-utils/include/png.h" CC=i586-mingw32msvc-gcc ./configure --revision=r12717+DayLength --os=MINGW --host=i586-mingw32msvc --enable-strip --without-sdl --with-zlib=/home/brendan/cross-tools/lib/libz.a --without-png --without-freetype --without-fontconfig
03:42:39 <DaleStan> Belugas: Yes, 15 bits. "D0XX" often means "D000..D3FF".
04:39:35 <De_Ghosty> when i replace my duo with a quad
04:39:40 <De_Ghosty> do i need to reinstall window?
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05:40:30 <Gekz> bah, cant anyone help me lol
05:43:59 <Rubidium> does not work is quite ambiguous
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05:59:28 <Gekz> Rubidium: the question precedes the failing
06:04:23 <De_Ghosty> cuz i was gonna give my sister the core 2 and me get new shiny quad :D
06:04:46 <De_Ghosty> any rumor of a glimps of a price cut :D
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06:53:55 <extspotter> Can you help me with OTTD?
06:54:29 <extspotter> When I try to add GRFs into the game, it freezes
06:54:44 <GoneWacko> Why hello there mister Simon
06:54:47 <Sionide> what version of ottd?
06:54:49 <extspotter> all fo the ones I downloaded, lol
06:55:06 <extspotter> and UKRS extention
06:55:20 <Sionide> extspotter, you might have downloaded a dodgy one or the download didn't work properly OR you're trying to add a GRF which conflicts with another...?
06:55:58 <Sionide> extspotter, for example, i dunno if you can have uk trams AND generic trams.. there's only so much room in the GRF space, so to speak
06:56:08 <Sionide> extspotter, best thing to do is to download the openttdcoop grfpack
06:56:23 <Sionide> cos that's a whole group of GRFs including trams and stuff which is known to work
06:56:24 <extspotter> do you have a link or is it just on grfcrawler or summat
06:56:34 <GoneWacko> Oh not too much. I'm doing my internship in Finland and that's about it.
06:56:34 <GoneWacko> How about your person?
06:56:52 <extspotter> He is happy youre around :D
06:57:02 <extspotter> In more ways than one :p
06:59:10 <Sionide> remember to get rid of all the others first
06:59:14 <Sionide> put them somewhere else
06:59:40 <extspotter> what is in that file?
06:59:43 <Sionide> GoneWacko, all is well.. just finishing my 3rd and final year project..
07:00:02 <Sionide> extspotter, the zip file has all the GRFs in the table in the first link..
07:00:11 <Sionide> known to work and not to conflict
07:00:23 <extspotter> and just put the ones not in use into a different folder
07:01:20 <GoneWacko> Awesome. I'm trying to get that same situation going for myself by telling some official-looking people in my school that one of the teachers made a boo-boo when assessing me (which is actually the case).
07:01:28 <GoneWacko> Don't think it'll work though :p
07:01:41 <extspotter> error reading the file
07:06:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> "not to conflict" <- that comment is very misleading
07:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> or just plainly wrong...
07:07:46 <Sionide> is there stuff that conflicts in the coop package?
07:11:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, like there are multiple trainsets
07:12:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> you can only ever use one trainset at each time
07:14:39 <extspotter> I have delted all the others and redownloaded the UK set
07:14:51 <extspotter> I am going to get the UK trams
07:17:25 <extspotter> I dont think the trams and trains go together
07:18:11 <extspotter> does that mean you can onle have 1 tranport set?
07:18:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> one set of each kind
07:18:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> i.e. 1 trainset, 1 truckset, 1 tramset
07:20:06 <extspotter> because the trains and trams on mine were clashing
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07:22:53 <extspotter> what is the best plane pack?
07:28:52 <Celestar> Man at cafeteria wanting a sandwich. 1) Walks up to fridge, 2) opens it, 3) pulls out sandwich, 4) closes fridge. Elapsed time: 12 secnds
07:30:43 <Celestar> Woman at cafeteria wanting a sandwich. 1) Walks up to fridge, 2) locates herself stragetically as to block the entire line, 3) opens fridge, 4) pulls out sandwich, 5) identifies sandwich, 6) gives a rating to sandwich, 7) repeats steps 4) to 6) for every sandwich in damn fridge, 8) gets sandwich with highest rating from now warm fridge, 9) closes fridge. Elapsed time: 4 minutes :<
07:31:47 <Tefad> also bagging lunch prevents cafeteria woes
07:32:00 <extspotter> You arent bitter...
07:32:04 <Celestar> I just wanted a damn coke ;)
07:32:12 <Celestar> extspotter: nah, I'm just having a good time :P
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09:29:29 * Celestar wonders why "svn up" on the main repo takes 3 minutes on his box to complete :S
09:29:36 <Celestar> stupid file server being slow again
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09:58:39 <Roest> how does this registering nicks work again, havent used irc in ages
10:01:32 <Celestar> msg nickserv register
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10:27:34 <Gekz> lol, in 1936 I have CHF 9,135,400
10:29:29 <extspotter> I accidentally blew up my main station in OTTD online and can't build a new one (oops!)
10:32:01 <extspotter> will probably rejoin it because I was doing good
10:32:17 <extspotter> I had a load of EMUs and DMUs
10:34:09 <Roest> remains the question why you cant rebuild it
10:34:20 <extspotter> because the town didnt like me
10:34:34 <extspotter> It was poor, so not good enough to build near it
10:34:48 <extspotter> and I was debted to the hilt and hadn't got much money anyway
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10:52:07 <Kloopy> I think the "build over an old station before it expires to ensure vehicles using it go back to the newly built station" algorthim needs some work.
10:53:07 <Kloopy> I destroyed a City airport which was mid-city to build an International airport over it, but because the bigger airport didn't get build over the center tile (I presume that's what tracks it) it didn't take the old airports name and ID.
10:53:31 <Kloopy> Would it be much work to look at the code and make a patch that says if the new station overlaps the old one in any tile, it picks up the old stations ID?
10:55:35 <Yexo> Kloopy: it has to do with the distance between the labels IIRC
10:56:10 <Kloopy> Ah, ok. So just extend that "max distance to replace station" value.
10:56:27 <Kloopy> It was slightly frustrating as I had something like 24 planes using the old airport.
10:56:41 <Kloopy> On many routes, so it wasn't a quick update shared orders.
10:58:56 <Ammller> Kloopy: good workaround is to place a railstation tile adjacent to the airport
10:59:44 <Ammller> I woud never trust that remember former station
10:59:45 <Kloopy> But to be honest, it should be seamless, the game just needs a little bit of tweaking so that my obvious airport replacement works without a workaround.
11:00:16 <Kloopy> So that's an issue then isn't it... if the "remember former station" feature doesn't have players trust, it needs a touch of attention.
11:00:57 <Ammller> it works fine if you combine the airport with rail or roadstations
11:01:12 <Yexo> I also never use it, not because I don't trust it, but because there are too many things that can go wrong
11:01:16 <Kloopy> That's all well and good but there -are- situations where it's not perfect.
11:01:42 <Yexo> Imagine being distracted and thereby being too late to get the old stationid
11:02:22 <Yexo> Kloopy: in town, just use an onroad roadstop, outsite of town, you have plenty of room
11:02:28 <Yexo> I know, I was just typing slow
11:06:06 <Kloopy> Ammller: as I said above, my airport replacement wasn't close enough to the old one to keep the stationid despite overlapping the old station tiles.
11:06:41 <Kloopy> But slowness can be sorted, too.. keep the stationid for much longer that it currently is and open a window asking if you want to replace the station when you next build one close to it.
11:06:57 <Kloopy> If you say "no" the stationid is removed straight away.
11:08:08 <Kloopy> 'Do you want to: Replace the old station "Funtingwood Airport" / Create a new station "Funtingwood Central"'
11:08:31 <Kloopy> Anyhow, I'm going down to the beach to eat my lunch. *waves*
11:11:25 <Yexo> Kloopy: The maximum distance is set in station_cmd.cpp, line 353
11:11:58 <Yexo> currently the old station sign/id is only taken if it is less then 8 tiles away, diagonal tiles counting for 2
11:12:20 <Yexo> so 4 tiles diagonally is too far way
11:12:33 <Kloopy> It goes by center tile/label?
11:12:44 <Yexo> no, by tile of station sign
11:12:59 <Kloopy> Ok... which is no wonder, it's about 8 tiles to the middle of the Intercontinental airport! :P
11:13:04 <Yexo> the distance between the old and new station label tile
11:13:31 <Yexo> not the middle, but the tile the label is above
11:14:10 <Kloopy> Right. I'll load up my save game and have a look at the labels after lunch.
11:14:28 *** Osai`off is now known as Osai
11:15:36 <Yexo> changing DistanceManhattan to DistanceSquare and threshold to 64 problebly does a better job
11:27:00 <Gekz> I want the passenger exchange patch updated to the current trunk :/
11:27:37 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
11:28:59 <Ammller> Roest: I meant the assert on RV orders
11:29:47 <Roest> oh, thought you were talking about my patch
11:29:59 <Roest> was a bit confusing there
11:30:41 <Gekz> Ammller: the passengers know what station they want to get off at
11:30:45 <Ammller> Roest: the current CIV is quite useless
11:30:46 <Gekz> Ammller: and they will swap trains to do it
11:31:06 <Roest> yea i know, i tried it, got the assert and quit it
11:31:58 <Ammller> then say "Pass dest" instead of exchange ;-)
11:32:04 <Roest> i guess i keep my own patch pack maintained, c&p is a must for me now
11:32:30 <Roest> too bad frostregen doesnt want it to go in trunk
11:34:04 <Ammller> using of c&p is more working ttd then playing
11:34:51 <Ammller> isn't the idea of ttd to build tracks?
11:35:21 <Roest> for me it's to build big networks, if i can get rid of repetive tasks it helps that
11:35:52 <Ammller> peter1138: how do you call them? (Schienen)
11:36:25 <peter1138> there's more to ttd than building tracks ;p
11:36:45 <Ammller> well, c&p does more too
11:36:52 <Roest> besides i never remember the layouts of station exits and junctions
11:37:07 <Ammller> because you use c&p :P
11:37:33 <Ammller> I am lucky, I do not either, so I can try something new... everytime :-)
11:38:41 <Roest> paxdest would be nice to have, it really added some depth but as long as it doesnt work in multiplayer its no option
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11:40:40 <peter1138> someone will do it right eventually
11:41:56 <Forked> we should put an an endless amount of coding monkeys on it.. and hope they dont code shakespear (mistypes bound to be included here)
11:42:11 <Ammller> peter1138: Its quite hard to patch svn with your engine patch
11:42:24 <Ammller> copy of engine_type.h
11:42:37 <peter1138> do the svn cp first
11:43:09 <planetmaker> noob question: what's the C&P patch about?
11:43:11 <Ammller> whats the idea behind that?
11:43:46 <peter1138> planetmaker: it's about copying and pasting map areas
11:44:04 <Ammller> why don't you not just patch engine_type.h?
11:45:50 <Ammller> planetmaker: the most famous and oldest "not going to trunk" patch :-)
11:47:04 <planetmaker> oh, is it that kind? :) Would be handy at times... though I'm not sure how much I'd use it.
11:47:07 <Roest> it's really hard to see why
11:47:53 <peter1138> Ammller: because pools go in _base
11:49:45 <Ammller> planetmaker: read the blue text in the 1. post :-)
11:50:55 <planetmaker> :D. Spoiling building style?
11:51:11 <planetmaker> Certainly it might easily violate the "low terraform" rules...
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11:53:40 <planetmaker> what's the actual problem with this patch, btw? Not network compatible? Or...?
11:54:29 <Rubidium> planetmaker: talking about copy/paste?
11:54:35 <Roest> it certainly is network compatible, i use it on my own server
11:54:51 <Gekz> its sad when you use TTD to test if someone is stupid or not
11:55:02 <Rubidium> 1) contains bugs, 2) did not look maintainable when I last looked at it
11:55:21 <planetmaker> ^^ fair enough for a non inclusion, I guess :)
11:55:50 <Ammller> the problem of the patch is, that it is client side only
11:56:05 <Roest> so the functionality wouldn't keep it from going into trunk?
11:56:05 <planetmaker> Why is that a problem?
11:56:06 <Ammller> so you can patch your client with it and join a server without that patch
11:56:43 <Ammller> after a talk with him about that, he added the blue text to his post
11:57:12 <Roest> i don't see that as a problem, but then i never play ottd competitive
12:06:12 <nicfer> too much people say 'go play simcity if you want to control a city' and they didn't take care that simcity is propietary
12:06:38 <nicfer> and simcity is most boring that TT
12:07:58 <Bjarni> <ln> a day-time Bjarni! <-- I'm usually busy all day and that goes for right now as well
12:08:41 <nicfer> what other bad thing about simcity 3000 is that citizens complain about everything
12:09:21 <nicfer> the citizens want you to enable a law and after others tell you to remove it
12:10:59 <nicfer> and simcity isn't multiplayer
12:11:18 <Gekz> Simcity 2000 Network Edition
12:12:03 <nicfer> how is the multiplayer gameplay?
12:12:32 <nicfer> multiple players work on the same city?
12:13:19 <nicfer> each player controls it's own city in a neightbour (don't know exact world)?
12:13:20 <Gekz> it was many years ago lol
12:13:31 <Gekz> you had to purchase land to build on
12:14:06 <Bjarni> can you export garbage to each other?
12:14:19 <Bjarni> and send all the garbage from a lot of towns to the same one
12:14:45 <Bjarni> sending all the garbage to the same location and producing all the power there as well
12:14:51 <Roest> what's it about your interest in garbage
12:14:51 <Bjarni> with no people to complain
12:15:11 <Bjarni> Roest: I don't want it here... that's basically it :P
12:15:40 <Roest> you're from naples by chance?
12:16:03 <Bjarni> but they don't want garbage either
12:16:43 <Bjarni> we should just stop producing garbage (or at least limit the amount of garbage)
12:17:18 <Bjarni> think about when you buy something... think about how much garbage the factories put around the actual thing when they ship it
12:17:47 <Bjarni> when I purchased an USB hub then the box was like 10 times the size of the hub
12:17:58 <Bjarni> and it contained mainly air
12:18:07 <Roest> lol should've seen the box my 8800gtx came in
12:18:25 <Roest> that thing was a friggin suitcase
12:19:07 <Bjarni> Steve Jobs said at one time that they had engineers working on the packing for the iPods for environmental reasons. They cut the size in half while still containing the same stuff
12:19:31 <Bjarni> this means less fuel is used to transport them to the shops as they can have more in each vehicle
12:19:40 <Roest> so why is it more fun to fiddle with the ottd code instead on working on the program for my thesis
12:19:56 <Bjarni> personally I think it's a nice way of saying "we figured out how to reduced shipping costs"
12:20:32 <Bjarni> <Roest> so why is it more fun to fiddle with the ottd code instead on working on the program for my thesis <-- for the same reason as it's more fun to write this than to program the stuff that is due for Monday :P
12:22:27 <Roest> guess i really need to work now
12:22:56 <Bjarni> then I will not ask you about your thesis ;)
12:23:06 <Bjarni> <Gekz> Bjarni: fix my patches! <-- err... patches?
12:23:29 <Gekz> Bjarni: the patches I want to compile with trunk :P
12:23:32 <Roest> lol it's still in the beginning
12:23:56 <Bjarni> and it will stay there if you stay in here
12:25:12 <Roest> right now i have to write a viewer for MRI data, sounds simple but is so totally boring to setup all the widgets and stuff
12:26:12 <Bjarni> reminds me of when I should code my first GUI in C++ (which happened to use SDL)
12:26:30 <teeg> Bjarni: Just to be sure I'm not stepping on any toes, the reason I picked that code as an example was that it was just the first quick "good" example I could find, and I'm well aware that this was written back in the C days. I wasn't quite aware of how long ago the migration to C++ was, but that's not a big issue.
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12:27:00 <Denyerec> Got me a problem with train orders.... :)
12:27:18 <Roest> those bastards trains wont follow your orders?
12:27:22 <Bjarni> we were a group of two people and the other one coded the GUI while I coded the FPGA and mcu. The hardware told the right stuff at the right time but we ended up not showing everything the hardware told about when we reached the deadline
12:27:24 <Denyerec> Got a station by a Coal mine and an Oil Refinery, linked on a loop to an Oilfield and a Powerstation.
12:27:48 <teeg> Denyerec: shoot one conductor and keep the other's family hostage. that'll get them to follow orders!
12:27:49 <Denyerec> I had one train, with 4 coal cars and 4 oil cars. I wanted a coal dropoff and an oil pickup, but the transfer order kept picking up the dropped off coal!
12:28:02 <Denyerec> Damn... Don't think I've found the button for that :S
12:28:42 <Denyerec> (Open TTD latest stable build)
12:28:43 <teeg> Bjarni: yeah. tgr is apparently reserved on this network already
12:29:17 <Bjarni> oh I heard that one before :/
12:29:23 <planetmaker> Denyerec: use a normal order without load, unload or anything...
12:29:33 <Roest> denyerec: best way is to make a post and attach the savegame or at least screenshots
12:29:53 <planetmaker> It won't use full load then, but it will deliver and pickup.
12:29:55 <Bjarni> well the main thing is that OO should be used when it makes sense. Rewriting working code for the cause of rewriting makes little sense
12:29:58 <peter1138> yeah, don't use transfer
12:30:01 <Denyerec> Interesting. However then the train sprints off without fully loading.... guess I can't have my cake and eat it ;)
12:30:29 <planetmaker> ^^ :) Maybe it changed in the very latest nightly. Haven't tested it...
12:31:03 <planetmaker> There were some very interesting changes on the load orders, though
12:31:12 <teeg> Bjarni: I do see a lot of places where it would make sense though, and what you said at the end is precicely one of those cases. Or, not OO, but more how everything is structured now could be improved on in my opionion.
12:31:13 <Yexo> Denyerec: start using a nighty and use the "Full load any" order
12:31:27 <Yexo> in 0.6.0 full load should work though
12:31:27 <Bjarni> teeg: I thought like you did at one time. OO can solve a lot of problems but I quickly realised that OO is not a solution on it's own and it's not the best solution for everything
12:31:52 <planetmaker> Yexo: but not, if you want to drop anything at the same station
12:32:18 <teeg> Bjarni: it can be taken too far, I agree. I've seen that happen with, say, Mail::Box for perl, where everything IS an boject
12:32:20 <Yexo> planetmaker: are you sure? I thought full load did unload first, but I'm not sure anymore
12:32:41 <planetmaker> Yexo: I always thought it only loads. But to be sure I'd have to test, too
12:33:14 <Denyerec> Transfer and Full Load seems to load up what it's unloading...
12:33:18 <Yexo> going to test it right now :)
12:33:19 <Denyerec> Unless I'm doing something wrong.
12:33:24 <peter1138> full load shouldn't stop it unloading, iirc
12:33:37 <Yexo> Denyerec: I ment full load without transfer
12:33:43 <Bjarni> teeg: What I meant by the last two lines is: don't change for the purpose of changing something. Change something when you add new stuff and you can benefit from using objects and we already do that
12:34:01 <planetmaker> I stand corrected, peter will know :)
12:34:05 <Yexo> transfer means unload at station but don't deliver to industry, so the cargo will stay at the station for another (or the same) vehicle to pick up
12:34:20 <teeg> Bjarni: a bit, yes, but there are still plenty of very global functions which I believe should be done in a different way.
12:34:44 <Celestar> er ... it doesn't build :o
12:36:33 <Celestar> yah .. /me goes finding out
12:37:05 <Bjarni> teeg: then give a good example of what you disagree with and how you would benefit from changing it (benefit as it will make your new feature much easier to write or similar)
12:37:27 <Yexo> full load without transfer works, at least in the latest trunk
12:39:50 <Celestar> make[1]: chdir: No such file or directory
12:40:42 <Gekz> [SRC] Linking openttd.exe
12:40:43 <Gekz> /usr/lib/gcc/i586-mingw32msvc/4.2.1-sjlj/../../../../i586-mingw32msvc/lib/libmingwex.a(mingw_snprintf.o):(.text+0x1d00): multiple definition of `_snprintf'
12:40:46 <Gekz> string.o:string.cpp:(.text+0x4a0): first defined here
12:40:48 <Gekz> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
12:40:56 <Gekz> ... that was more lines than it should have been, sorry >_>
12:41:40 <peter1138> Celestar: run a ./configure?
12:42:02 <peter1138> hmm, path with spaces?
12:42:43 <teeg> Bjarni: it'd be difficult to give a good example offhand, but the example code I gave in that posting does show a bit of what I mean. It would just be a bit simpler to program all the surrounding code. I think the station could for example contain a CargoType object, and the train or whatever could contain a cargotype object (or some sort of cargo container), and you'd compare those. I haven't thought this through 100% yet, but that's the kind of chang
12:43:37 <teeg> Bjarni: but to be honest, I'm getting the feeling that this would be a bit too much to get into trunk to start with, since it'd be a major overhaul for potentially little return to start with, so I do understand if you're all moderately negative to the idea.
12:45:26 * Rubidium ponders why suddenly "everyone" starts lecturing us about not using OO when it could be used and such
12:45:59 <Celestar> :[/nfs/home/fischer/coding/openttd/trunk]> pwd
12:46:01 <Celestar> /fischer/coding/openttd/trunk
12:47:34 <planetmaker> trunk compiles here w/o complaining...
12:48:39 <Bjarni> teeg: mainly the negative feedback is due to time/benefit factor from such a change. It's also likely that it would reduce speed and add bugs
12:49:11 <nicfer> how comes that the executable installer is smaller than the zip equivalent
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12:49:30 <Bjarni> teeg: but when it appears to be a good idea we do add member functions and stuff like that and if you feel like we could benefit from it we would hear you out before you actually start
12:49:42 <Gekz> trunk compiles for linux here
12:49:43 <teeg> Bjarni: time/benefit I can agree with, speed I can also agree with to a certain extent, but my initial impression of the code itself was that it was now internally so complex that it might cause a few bugs on its own merit.
12:49:57 <Celestar> Gekz: after rechanging the dir it worked
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12:50:06 <teeg> Bjarni: yeah, I'm not writing any code yet, I'm just trying to test the water before I jump in
12:50:50 <Yexo> Gekz: about mingw, have you tried ./configure --without-libfreetype --without-libpng?
12:50:59 <Yexo> that works for me on cygwin
12:51:03 <planetmaker> lalala... network fun...
12:52:27 <Roest> so is the fact that my server doesnt appear on the master list still a bug or am i doing something wrong?
12:52:40 *** dR3x4cK has joined #openttd
12:53:08 <Gekz> lol I used to run a server called Sexual Cookies
12:53:16 <Gekz> I got random pings every 10 seconds
12:53:50 <Gekz> it was you wasn it SmatZ
12:54:42 *** xerxes is now known as shodan
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12:56:38 <Roest> also is there a server switch to turn off the dbg messages for queries and newgrf queries or do i have to turn it off at compile
12:57:40 <peter1138> debug_level net=1, heh
12:58:16 <Ammller> but isn't default debug off already?
12:59:06 <teeg> Bjarni: but if I made a mini-fork (say OpenTTD++), did my thing and actually finished it (unlike all the other patch programmers who've vanished, which is stil to be proven...), would you take a look at it? You don't have to worry overly much for the next few months (it's almost summer, so it's time for me to get my trackdays on), but some day, if I were successfull.
12:59:48 <teeg> that way I wouldn't be lecturing (I'm not lecturing, I'm inquiring so I can see what the general consensus is), and I'd have something concrete to present to everyone.
13:01:50 <Celestar> methinks there's nothing wrong with making forks
13:02:22 * Gekz fears the OpenTTDCity fork
13:02:35 <Gekz> "Build a city, then transport things to it."
13:02:55 <Ammller> teeg: there is a eyecandy patch
13:03:06 <Ammller> maybe you could start with that?
13:03:09 <SmatZ> yes, I was thinking about a better SimCity2000 :)
13:03:49 <Ammller> I guess, its from Frostregen, too.
13:04:42 <Roest> mind to use simcity4 instead, there's so much user created content for that
13:05:55 <Gekz> teeg: are you makign a SimCity-style OpenTTD fork?
13:06:03 <Forked> fork this fork that :(
13:06:49 <SmatZ> Roest: I like SC2000 the most
13:06:54 <teeg> Gekz: nono, no such thing. I'm just trying to see if there aren't ways to improve the internal structure of openttd so the code itself would be easier. no openttd city, openttd societies or anything like that :P
13:07:40 <Roest> it was very good i agree, but i got into sc4 then, it's pretty good with the rushhour expansion
13:07:51 <Roest> i dowloaded over 1GB of stuff for it lol
13:08:51 <teeg> Gekz: I was thinking more along the route of revamping than just mere auditing
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13:10:40 <teeg> Personally, whenever I play openttd, I never go into micromanagement of cities, mostly since passengers and mail etc just isn't interesting to micromanage because they don't do destinations yet (except for paxdest, which appears to be getting overly complicated and resource hungry for its own good). It's just a virtual railroad which I try to tweak into performing better and better all the time. so no sim city delusions of grandeour here :P
13:10:47 <Belugas> [23:41] <DaleStan> Belugas: Yes, 15 bits. "D0XX" often means "D000..D3FF". <- thanks DaleStan. but... "
13:11:15 <Belugas> "often" ... dos it mean ALWAYS ?
13:11:36 <teeg> D0xx means D000..D3FF? wouldn't that mean Dxxx?
13:13:01 <Kloopy> Is the current incarnation of paxdest stopped development then?
13:13:21 <Roest> question: when was the last time you've seen quinf on the forum
13:13:27 <teeg> wasn't ottd coded in asm, then ported to C, and now in the process of being migrated to C++
13:14:52 <Roest> it's like people still ask gonozal for an update
13:15:26 <Belugas> but the migration is not a "DO IT NOW" stuff
13:15:59 <Belugas> and not because-OO-rocks-and-nothing-should-be-done-otherwise
13:16:06 <SmatZ> teeg: why should it be made "now"?
13:16:11 <Belugas> who cares how lng it's gonna take??
13:16:24 <Belugas> does the game still run? Does it still rocks?
13:16:32 <Belugas> that's the only importasnt thing
13:17:26 <SmatZ> but not more than you are
13:18:02 <teeg> Yes, it does rock from a user perspective, but it could be better from a programmer perspective. And I am willing to at least give it a go with regards to trying to do it "now", just to see how much work it is, how much extra resources it'll use, and how much it'll be liked if I do finish it.
13:18:38 <teeg> Unless of course that isn't something any of the developers is interested in seeing done.
13:18:42 <teeg> Oh, I know it'll be a lot of work
13:18:54 <teeg> I don't know how much, but I know it's a lot of work.
13:19:03 <Gekz> I assume teeg doesnt have a lot of a life :P
13:19:15 <teeg> Make no mistake, I'm not under the impression it'll be a walk in the park :P
13:19:21 <teeg> Gekz: as a matter of fact, you're right. :P
13:19:32 <Roest> life is overrated anyway
13:19:52 <Belugas> teeg, if it serves a REAL purpose other than just looking good, it's a waiste of time
13:20:10 <Belugas> changing for changing is futile
13:20:30 <teeg> So basically, what you're saying is that you're not fond of the idea.
13:20:30 <Belugas> you have to have a benefit out of it
13:21:00 <Belugas> that's not what i say
13:21:11 <Belugas> i say that changing for changing is futile
13:21:13 <teeg> But you're not over the moon about it either :P
13:21:27 <Belugas> i say that if your idea brings a bonus, it is worht checking
13:22:22 <teeg> I agree. I'm not thinking about putting in all of this effort just for change's sake. I'm too lazy for that. I'm thinking of putting in this effort because I think it WILL bring a bonus. I'm thinking it'll be a programmer time bonus first and foremost, possibly with a bit of a performance impact, but I won't know exactly how much until it's implemented.
13:24:56 <Belugas> it sounds as if you do not have a plan, nor that you know what awaits you...
13:26:07 <Belugas> in fact, you kinda remind me of that tgr guy on the forums
13:26:59 <teeg> heh. thanks. 'tis a bit chilly. :P
13:27:25 <Kloopy> haha. "You remind me of that really annoying guy who knows nothing on the forums.... *tumbleweed*"
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13:30:39 <Gekz> I can taste the awkwardness.
13:32:26 <Belugas> yeeg: well... it is a bit expected, don't you think? you come on the forums, claiming high and loud that our code is rubbish and that you're going to change it all in OO, just becuase it is the best thing to do, without even knowing all the ins and outs of it. I mean... it is a bit irritating, don't you think?
13:32:52 <Belugas> There are initiatives that are welcome, becuase they serve a purpose
13:34:17 <teeg> Belugas: I'm not claiming it's rubbish. And after seeing how many of the way the other small patches were welcome, I'm not surprised. Which is why I'm that much more determined to see if it can't be done even better than they are now. I am only trying to _help_ in my own way here.
13:34:18 <Belugas> no clear purpose nor gain (apart beauty of code) has been etablished by you. Nor did you produced anything yet that would confirm that you are indeed a good coder who would be able to bring more to the game
13:35:16 <Belugas> There are lots of reasons (and mostly each patch is a case for itself) why a patch can be accepted or refused.
13:35:30 <Roest> i'm a terrible coder, my code is rubbish and my dragndrop land purchase was rejected :(
13:36:20 <Belugas> I know you want to help, teeg. But it doe snot mean we should embrace arms wide open anything anyhow.
13:36:37 <Gekz> if passenger routes was implemented into trunk it would make building passenger lines much more exciting
13:36:37 <Belugas> Roest, it's not the code, it's the feature ;)
13:36:48 <Belugas> anywa... enough talking, i'
13:37:59 <Roest> i'm still not really satisfied by the reasoning why the feature is unwanted, even if we turn it off in multiplayer
13:38:43 <Gekz> why do you need to purchase land in vast amounts?
13:39:12 <Roest> i tend to develop towns and block the land where i want stations and airports
13:39:14 <teeg> Belugas: not saying that either. I'm all for scepticism, and I'm not expecting any positive feedback until I do actually have something to show for it. But in the meantime I'll stfu since this apparently isn't going to be a very productive thing to discuss until I've done it.
13:40:11 * peter1138 is all for teeg doing whatever he wants
13:40:25 <Roest> mostly i reserve the 9x11 tiles for the largest airport
13:40:34 <peter1138> none of us is a c++ developer
13:40:45 <peter1138> c++ programmer, i should say
13:42:06 <Roest> i'm a z80 assembler hippie
13:46:00 <Celestar> peter1138: I'm begging to get one due to a work project \o/
13:49:34 <Bjarni> teeg: making a fork is likely not the way to go. It would be better to have a dialogue about what you want to do (like writing a little about what to change and why) and then if we like the idea we can figure out a plan on how to actually do it
13:51:02 <Kloopy> Roest: Why was drag and drop purchasing declined?
13:51:24 <Roest> since the possible harm you can do in multiplay i guess
13:51:38 <Roest> buying large areas around industries and block other players
13:51:42 <Bjarni> and by actually doing it I mean like figuring out what steps to take and do it step by step rather than making a huge patch because huge patches are known to fail for countless reasons. Not even developers with commit access likes to make too big patches for a single commit because they tend to conflict with the trunk and so on
13:51:54 <Kloopy> But you can do harm in do many other ways, like building rail to block competitors... The idea is that by doign that sort of thing you get kicked/banned from the server.
13:52:24 <Roest> damn bjarni i already had a name for the fork, like ooottd or o3ttd
13:53:26 <teeg> Bjarni: Agreed. and too big a patch would piss off other patch programmers as well. In short (as I said earlier), I'll shut up and create something I can present, instead of just a lot of hot air about nothing.
13:54:19 <Noldo> teeg: If you like global varible hunting I can join you
13:54:43 <Bjarni> Roest: while OOOTTD would be an interesting name I care more for the contents and if I think that it wouldn't work well for some reason I feel like I should at least tell how I feel about it
13:54:53 <Bjarni> but an interesting name indeed
13:55:51 <Tefad> is there yet a complete redistributable graphics pack?
13:56:07 <Gekz> is there an incomplete one?
13:56:08 <Tefad> is there an effort to have one?
13:56:24 <Roest> so ttd being on several abandon ware sites is illegal?
13:56:24 <Tefad> if so, would it ever be included with ottd
13:56:43 <Tefad> Roest: to use ottd i think you need to have a license for ttd
13:57:00 <peter1138> Roest: of course it is
13:57:00 <hylje> one could always run a parallel branch of ottd which boasts redistributable gfx and sound
13:57:23 <Tefad> abandonware in general is illegal
13:57:28 <Gekz> replace the sounds with your voice
13:57:34 <Gekz> "GENERIC SMOKE SOUNDS GO HERE!"
13:57:41 <Tefad> unless copyright holder gives free license to works.
13:58:17 <Bjarni> teeg, Noldo: about global variable hunting. You should be aware that some of them are global to be compatible with load/save so a plan for making one non-global would likely benefit from starting to figure out how it would still work with load/save
13:58:21 <Tefad> have we even figured out who owns ttd rights yet?
13:58:36 <hylje> that parallel branch would be fairly simple to maintain, even, just pull the changesets once in a while from hg/git
13:59:09 <teeg> Bjarni: I was thinking about that on my way to work today actually, that's a good point I hadn't thought of.
14:00:07 <Bjarni> the same goes for stuff in openttd.cfg
14:01:13 <Bjarni> just killing the global var and add accessors when it's used isn't that tricky. It's when it comes to config file and savegames it becomes tricky
14:01:44 <Mwa> Is it just me, or do the last few mac os x nightly builds not work?
14:01:46 <Bjarni> if simple accessors would have done the trick then we would likely have dealt with this ourselves ages ago
14:02:00 <hylje> but you haven't, because you're incompetent
14:02:03 <Noldo> there might be ones similar to expence type thing
14:02:04 <Mwa> 16/04/2008 14:56:21 com.apple.launchd[104] ([0x0-0x6a06a].org.openttd.openttd[696]) posix_spawnp("/Users/lexi/Downloads/OTTD-macosx-intel-nightly-r12705/OpenTTD.app/Contents/MacOS/openttd", ...): Bad executable (or shared library)
14:02:51 <teeg> My initial idea for solving that would be to make the objects themselves serialize themselves or something. I'm not sure yet, but I'll make damned sure I take that into account, because I assume it won't just be with config files and savegames, but also multiplayer
14:03:44 <Bjarni> Mwa: there is a known issue with Intel 10.5 and the nightly build. Try the PPC built instead and pray that rosetta will emulate it correctly. Alternatively you can compile yourself
14:04:31 <Bjarni> as luck would happen somebody updated the wiki page an hour ago on how to compile on mac when using 10.5
14:05:29 <Mwa> Wouldn't it be a case of just downloading the svn and typing ./configure;make?
14:05:45 <Bjarni> Mwa: be aware that Rosetta isn't known to deal well with OpenTTD and even if it acts nicely it will still be slower
14:05:49 <hylje> you need the dependencies
14:06:08 <hylje> for instance, a compiler
14:06:19 <Mwa> Of course I have one of those
14:06:30 <Bjarni> Mwa: more or less yes. Somebody claimed that Apple included svn in 10.5 by default so you don't need to think about dependencies. I can't verify that though
14:06:31 <teeg> Mwa: if you do ./configure;make it'll run make irregardless of whether or not configure succeeded. :P
14:06:50 <hylje> development headers for the libs ottd happens to use as well
14:07:05 <Bjarni> <hylje> for instance, a compiler <-- according to the wiki page you just install Xcode and then dependancies like "a compiler" will be installed
14:07:27 <Bjarni> and I can verify that one (otherwise I wouldn't have written it like that)
14:07:33 <Mwa> Oh that reminds me, it was bugging me about some updates yesterday
14:08:28 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
14:08:30 <Bjarni> I don't know anything about 10.5 or Xcode 3 updates as I'm still in the 10.4 era
14:09:07 <peter1138> bjarni's in the dark ages
14:09:26 <Bjarni> basically I use 3rd party software that claims not to work with 10.5. They are working on an update though
14:10:18 <Bjarni> but... I still don't see why I should update. I have yet to see an improvement (for me) that will make it worth the money
14:10:24 <hylje> Roest: take your arrogance elsewhere
14:10:28 <Bjarni> Gekz: it has to do with the TV tuner
14:10:49 <Bjarni> Roest: as well as your ignorance
14:11:11 <Gekz> the whole .app thing drives me mad
14:11:28 <Mwa> Bjarni, it's damn good. Quicklook is wonderful for one
14:11:28 *** Gekz was kicked by Bjarni (I will help you to follow the requests we just wrote)
14:11:56 <Roest> whats left if you get rid of ignorance and arrogance
14:12:13 <Bjarni> Gekz: take your arrogance and ignorance elsewhere ;)
14:12:17 <Roest> need a word with *ance please
14:12:22 <Gekz> Bjarni: its not ignorance or arrogance
14:12:31 <Gekz> I've been using Mac OS X for the past 10 weeks
14:12:40 <Gekz> I'm sorry that you cant handle personal opinion
14:12:53 <Bjarni> I thought you were just acting silly
14:13:13 <Bjarni> usually when people gives an outburst like that then they never used mac at all
14:13:19 <hylje> if you were a reasonable person, you'd have based your opinion on something other than "I CANT FUCKING STAND IT"
14:13:20 <Gekz> I dont have opinions based on nothing.
14:13:30 <Gekz> I like to test things before making outrageous comments
14:13:37 <Mwa> .app bundles are cool. What's wrong with 'em? What I dislike is the way that all an application's data is flicked about throught the whole ~/Library/ folder instead of being in hidden folders in the home
14:13:37 <Gekz> BUT, I do like macfuse :P
14:13:50 <Gekz> I dont like how the system is hidden in Finder
14:14:13 <Bjarni> users who knows too little to mess with the system
14:14:25 <Gekz> yes, and I have to help them constantly
14:14:38 <Bjarni> if you know enough to mess with the system then you don't mind the terminal
14:14:41 <Gekz> I had to learn to use Mac OS X to help my software design teacher
14:14:48 <Gekz> I used the terminal the whole time
14:14:51 <Bjarni> I mean you have to use sudo anyway
14:15:00 <Gekz> but I dont understand WHY finder hides the system
14:15:13 <Gekz> theres probably an option to unhide that
14:15:14 <Mwa> Because the stuff it hides, no normal user ever needs to see
14:15:18 <Bjarni> I think it's to protect users from breaking their system
14:15:22 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12734 /trunk/src/ (viewport.cpp viewport_func.h): -Codechange: use a vector instead of allocating memory in a big byte array for StringSpriteToDraw.
14:15:34 <Mwa> What's a normal person to do with /bin for instance?
14:15:59 <Mwa> "A bin? I'll chuck my unwanted files in it!"
14:16:12 <Bjarni> <Mwa> .app bundles are cool. What's wrong with 'em? <-- we didn't get an answer on that one
14:16:23 <Mwa> or indeed "A bin? That means I can delete it to save space!"
14:16:50 <Gekz> Mwa: why would the user have write access
14:17:22 <Bjarni> reminds me of a guy I once knew. He found a file inside the windows dir (in win95) and he didn't know what it was supposed to do so he decided that it wasn't important and deleted it to gain free space
14:17:28 <Bjarni> then he couldn't boot anymore
14:17:33 <Mwa> In any case, there is a directive that enables you to see all the hidden files
14:17:44 <teeg> boot.ini isn't in the windows dir
14:18:03 <Noldo> there is propably more than one files that could have been it
14:18:26 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12735 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Codechange: use a vector instead of allocating memory in a byte array for TileSpriteToDraw.
14:18:28 <Gekz> Bjarni: is it possible to execute an .app from the console?
14:18:40 <teeg> Gekz: it's valid for all versions of windows from 95 and up I believe. it's on my xp system anyways. but this is just being pedantic, sorry. :P
14:18:49 <Gekz> teeg: I dont use Windows.
14:19:15 <Mwa> defaults write com.apple.finder AppleShowAllFiles -bool TRUE
14:19:19 <Bjarni> <Gekz> Bjarni: is it possible to execute an .app from the console? <-- yes... naturally it is
14:19:36 <Mwa> And for the console, you can either use Open -a Application
14:19:51 <Bjarni> the binary file is in *.app/Contents/MacOS/(filename)
14:19:52 <Mwa> ./App.app/Contents/MacOS/App
14:20:20 <teeg> used to be a debian person myself (got debian on this box), but moved over to kubuntu for the desktop since it's a bit more up to date (but buggier) than debian.
14:20:27 <Bjarni> usually bundle applications aren't intended for CLI usage
14:20:39 <Gekz> I like to do a lot of work from the console though
14:20:42 <Gekz> this is why mac os x isnt for me
14:20:43 * hylje believes there's a helper app that launches .apps
14:21:10 <Mwa> Also works for other files
14:21:20 <Gekz> I also don't like the proprietary-ness of macs
14:21:26 <Gekz> I dont like purchasing apps -_-
14:21:38 <Bjarni> <Gekz> never knew that Bjarni <-- I had to figure it out because Xcode makes the bundle just nicely but I wanted to do so from the makefile so basically it makes everything in the bundle manually
14:21:41 <Gekz> I dont like pirating things either
14:21:51 <Bjarni> setting up all the dirs and settings files inside the bundle
14:21:53 <Gekz> I had to install macports
14:21:58 <Gekz> and it had a random error
14:22:10 <Gekz> turns out it was trying to update through a proxy
14:22:33 <Bjarni> heh... Didn't know open
14:22:55 <Mwa> you can use open -e file to make it open in textedit
14:23:34 <Mwa> I'm going to go shopping now. See you in a bit
14:23:46 <Gekz> I just like having a package manager
14:23:52 <Gekz> a central control point for packages
14:24:00 <Gekz> without me having to drag things around
14:24:38 <Bjarni> there is nothing that prevents you from using OpenTTD as a CLI app only
14:25:36 <Bjarni> when you compile it you end up with a binary that acts like the linux binary when it comes to file search and so on. The only difference is that it can be aware of the fact that it ends up in a bundle and can add search paths based on that
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14:27:13 <Mwa> As I pass the computer searching for my coat, I will point out here that app bundles eliminate the need for folders, as you can put everything inside them.
14:28:51 <Bjarni> updating OpenTTD is just drag-n-drop the bundle as all the needed files (lang files, grf files..) are placed inside the bundle
14:29:00 <Gekz> I like my directory structure
14:29:02 <Bjarni> updating couldn't be easier
14:29:09 <Gekz> yes, but its space-mongering
14:29:20 <Gekz> doesnt that mean everything is statically-compiled?
14:29:35 <Mwa> I will also point out that in the windows version of the nightly builds, the new train orders interface is very confusing. (Also, not just a drag and drop if you installed the original ttd grf files inside the app bundle)
14:29:49 <Bjarni> it will not have to be statically linked to work with a bundle
14:30:02 <Bjarni> in fact Apple recommends that people link dynamically
14:30:13 <Gekz> Mwa: the one with the Load, Full Load, Full Load Any or No Load
14:30:33 <Bjarni> but I decided on linking statically because otherwise too many people would ditch the game because they couldn't figure out how to install libpng
14:30:38 <Gekz> could do with some tweaking though
14:30:43 <Mwa> when I click 'unload', it displays 'unload and take cargo'
14:30:47 <Mwa> this seems wrong to my mind
14:31:05 <Gekz> thats what I thought also
14:31:21 <Gekz> "Unload without prejudice"
14:31:25 <Gekz> that would look so awesome
14:31:44 <Mwa> Especially as this then causes all my goods stations to fill with passengers if one of the trains isn't refitted to contain goods
14:32:14 <Yexo> that's why normally you don't want to use unload
14:32:26 <Yexo> as goods will unload anyway if they accept it
14:32:28 <Bjarni> we could add an AI to figure out if the cargo should be loaded or unloaded and then you wouldn't need to consider this
14:32:30 <Mwa> the wiki said to use unload
14:32:32 <Gekz> like when you have an airport in the wrong place
14:32:52 <Bjarni> and based on how well the AI works in general in the game it wouldn't be that tricky to meet such a standard
14:33:02 <Mwa> Yexo, the tutorial did when I read it
14:33:14 <Mwa> that was a couple of months ago though
14:33:18 <Gekz> Bjarni: doesnt the default AI work quite well except for their building algorithms?
14:33:35 <Gekz> the random lines of doom
14:33:37 <Mwa> Gekz, it doesn't do much else other than build
14:33:40 <Gekz> and the terraforming craptasm.
14:33:54 <Gekz> Mwa: it can work out how to get one thing from one place to another
14:34:17 <Yexo> the tutorials says: "Unload ...Any cargo accepted by that station will be handled as usual, i.e. you will be paid. Any cargo not accepted by the station will be unloaded anyway and left for another vehicle to pick up...."
14:34:38 <Bjarni> the AI always uses the newest available engine buildable in the depot and once the line is active it never looks at it again
14:34:49 <Mwa> I often see tracks spiraling forwards and backwards as it builds and deletes while hopelessly trying to get somewhere that I could get to with a single bridge
14:34:53 <Bjarni> I'm not sure I would consider that to be a good AI
14:35:00 <Gekz> thats not what I meant lol
14:35:00 <Mwa> but anyway, I'm actually leaving now
14:35:17 <Gekz> I meant its algorithm for deciding where to build two stations
14:35:19 <Bjarni> but the night is young
14:35:25 <Gekz> and how to manage the train One Time Only (tm)
14:35:25 <Mwa> I do rather need to go shopping
14:35:39 <Bjarni> don't want to starve I see
14:35:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> <Ammller> planetmaker: the most famous and oldest "not going to trunk" patch :-) <- i thought subsidiaries patch is older than c&p
14:36:19 <Roest> wow someone is reading irc logs
14:36:32 <Bjarni> <Gekz> I meant its algorithm for deciding where to build two stations <-- I have seen two airports that were closer to each other than one of them were from the town it were supposed to service
14:36:38 * planetmaker does that from time to time, too...
14:37:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> it could have been something important there...
14:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> but it's only crap about OO and MacOS
14:37:33 <Ammler> is subsidiaries still maintained?
14:37:37 <Bjarni> Gekz is talking crap about Mac o_O
14:37:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammler: i kinda doubt it, but i haven't checked...
14:38:03 <Roest> i thought you can talk crap about mac
14:38:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> i assume it died with the C++ port
14:38:14 * Bjarni wonders what computer crap looks like
14:38:30 <Ammler> I guess, there is something new bases on truelights sharing patch for wwottdgd
14:39:00 <Tefad> Gekz: still running xandros?
14:39:16 <Bjarni> <Tefad> mac what's that <-- that's some hardware that can run OSX
14:39:28 <Gekz> Bjarni: my dell can run Mac OS X
14:39:30 <Tefad> neat, i've seen non mac hardware that runs OS X
14:39:30 <Gekz> doesnt mean its worth it
14:39:30 <Bjarni> Tefad: OSX is the OS you have on the old computer in the corner
14:39:38 <planetmaker> ^^ and linux and windows, and... too :)
14:39:58 <Tefad> yeah i had 10.3 on one of my powersurges
14:40:01 <Bjarni> <Gekz> Bjarni: my dell can run Mac OS X <-- not according to the EULA
14:40:12 <Gekz> Bjarni: read the EULA again
14:40:16 <Tefad> but 3GB isn't enough to do anything with
14:40:22 <Gekz> I can get a Dymo labeller
14:40:29 <planetmaker> Gekz: sure? Haven't given it a shot in a VM, but...
14:40:59 <Tefad> there's a new apple clone maker now
14:41:10 <planetmaker> but not 100% cloned.
14:41:23 <Tefad> emulates EFI or something
14:41:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammler: afaik subsidiaries had big problems with multiplayer, and it was considered wrong by design, so pretty early it was decided that it's not going to trunk
14:42:12 <Gekz> Bjarni: my eee can run Mac OS X
14:42:53 <Roest> ammler i think that thing died because it didnt support these ultra low resolution nobody uses
14:43:12 <Tefad> 700MHz of screaming agony.
14:43:18 <planetmaker> The NewGRF-GUI would be indeed a "nice-to-have" feature.
14:43:20 <Roest> and yes i'd like that one too
14:43:25 <Gekz> Tefad: it doesnt run too bad actually
14:43:29 <Tefad> Bjarni: that's what i was talking about
14:43:37 <Ammler> oh, don't get me wrong, I do not want it IN trunk, only compatible for trunk
14:44:27 <Roest> and diff 11499 means it's a nightmare to bring it to current trunk
14:44:42 <Gekz> it doesnt look like it would be that complex.
14:44:46 <Ammler> there is a solution how to handle small res.
14:44:59 <Ammler> (just use old GUI for them ;-)
14:45:16 <Gekz> how would it not fit on 640x480?
14:46:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> there are solutions < 640x480
14:48:52 <Bjarni> some handheld devices use 320x240
14:48:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> civ 1 ran on 320x200
14:49:49 <Roest> it's all nice and fancy, but seriously, who plays on these handheld devices
14:50:15 <Celestar> most games before like 1994 ran around 320x200 or 320x240
14:50:28 <Celestar> CIV1 had some 640x240 mode iirc
14:51:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> never seen that...
14:51:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> it had different modes for amount of colours, though
14:51:41 <Celestar> possible that 640x240 only worked on 16 colors
14:51:56 <Celestar> likely because it was written for 256kb vram or something
14:51:58 <Gekz> but why should we have to give up nice things for the poor people
14:52:09 <SmatZ> games from 80's-90's supported many video adapters - Tandy, Hercules, CGA, EGA, VGA :)
14:52:10 <Gekz> and afaik, ports to handhelds are not part of the main project that is OpenTTD
14:52:11 <Celestar> Gekz: because I didn't have a color monitor
14:52:27 <Gekz> Celestar: I didnt have a colour monitor until 1998
14:52:30 <planetmaker> hm... any chance to solve the resolution problem with a simple if... else clause?
14:52:58 <Celestar> planetmaker: what resolution problem are we talking about?
14:53:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> 320x200x256 or 640x480x16 were 256kB i believe
14:53:22 <SmatZ> 320x200x256 fits in 64kB
14:53:24 <peter1138> civ was 320x200 only
14:53:24 <Gekz> if they're real men they'd configure their newgrfs in the config
14:53:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> there was also a 640x400 mode for some devices
14:53:37 <planetmaker> Celestar: people here said that the NewGRF-GUI would have problems with small resolutions (of the screen)
14:53:57 <Gekz> also, I've played OpenTTD on a Palm TX
14:54:30 <Roest> i guess playing wihtout a mouse is just painful
14:54:45 <planetmaker> Celestar: it may, as it has a pretty wide window. But for "normal" PCs no problem, only for handhelds and such
14:54:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> i played TTO without mouse a lot of times
14:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> TTD(win) lost the ability to move the pointer with alt+←↓→↑
14:55:48 <Gekz> playing Baldurs Gate on a nokia
14:56:57 <Gekz> Baldurs Gate 2 on a nokia
14:57:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> i want that feature back, but nobody listens to me anyway
14:57:37 <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause2: flyspray feature request!
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14:58:02 <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause2: I bet the time setting patch would have been useful back then :P
14:58:17 <Gekz> at the moment, it takes an hour for a year to pass
14:58:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> what time setting patch?
14:58:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> you mean daylength?
14:58:29 <Gekz> I'm only at 1937 and I have $10,000,000 lol
14:58:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> not necessarily...
14:58:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> F1 key is very popular ;)
15:01:11 <Gekz> I dont believe I havent started more games at 19301
15:01:39 <Gekz> you have one bus, no other vehicles, and a few trains
15:01:53 <Gekz> lol, and if you have the PlaneSetw.grf, you have the Zeppelin
15:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> i always start 1920
15:02:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> or 1923 if i get tired of using BR 92
15:03:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> why? that's the intended way to use the set
15:04:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> plus, you have the Ford Model T ;)
15:04:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> and a tram, depending on which set you use
15:05:22 <peter1138> yeah, starting in 1920 is the only way to play properly
15:05:53 <Denyerec> I have been starting in 1940
15:06:02 <Denyerec> now I hear 1920 is the way to go? Ye gads!
15:06:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> DBSet engines get expensive if you start in later stages
15:06:27 <frosch123> <Eddi|zuHause2> or 1923 if i get tired of using BR 92 <- yes, that is why I always start in 1923 :p
15:06:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> frosch123: yes, there is too little choice in 1920
15:06:49 <peter1138> half the game is missed if you start in 1940 ;)
15:06:55 <Gekz> someone should rewrite it
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15:07:08 <Gekz> give me a reason why it just sounded like it exploded
15:07:12 <Gekz> and stopped in the middle of nowhere
15:07:38 *** [1]Mark is now known as Mark
15:09:36 <SmatZ> www.chrissawyer.com I guess
15:10:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> unreliability should change some properties of the engines, like maintenance costs *2, or max speed -20km/h
15:11:33 <SmatZ> I think newgrf can do that
15:11:36 <ln> Eddi|zuHause2: how many seasons of House M.D. have you watched?
15:11:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln: zip, null, nada
15:12:28 <ln> Eddi|zuHause2: ok, i recommend starting with season 1 episode 1.
15:12:41 <Digitalfox_Home> Eddi|zuHause2 don't know what you are losing :)
15:12:51 <Gekz> you cant lose what you dont have
15:12:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> i missed the start in germany, haven't got around to catch up after that
15:13:48 <ln> lucky you, you get to watch it with original voices then.
15:13:58 <Digitalfox_Home> Gekz say you hate House again and I will press the little button on my red phone saying Nuclear missile launch =0
15:14:39 <Digitalfox_Home> ok, missile away.. Wait a couple of hours but don't home.. Don't want it to miss =0
15:14:56 <Digitalfox_Home> *don't go away from home
15:16:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln: what i always wondered, in the german version of scrubs (around season 6, maybe 5) there is a line like "Ich bin Doktor House ... -meister"... i have no idea how that would work in english
15:16:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> [said by the maintenance guy]
15:17:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> [who is called "Hausmeister" in german]
15:17:56 <Denyerec> As does a series called The Wire.
15:18:12 <Denyerec> which sadly has made every other TV show look like utter, overacted, poorly produced shit.
15:18:28 <ln> Eddi|zuHause2: "House... -keeper" maybe?
15:18:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln: i take it you don't watch scrubs ;)
15:18:53 <Denyerec> You guys prefer to build a T-shaped mainline, circumnavigate the map, or go for a + shaped mainline ?
15:19:12 <ln> Eddi|zuHause2: nope, never even heard about it before. :)
15:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's totally genious... even in the german translation ;)
15:21:12 <Bjarni> there is a genius German translation?
15:21:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: a lot of german translations are good if you don't compare them to the original
15:21:57 <Bjarni> I like the condition :D
15:22:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> so a translation of a comedy series is good, if you laugh your ass off anyway
15:22:44 <Mirrakor> Eddi|zuHause2: no it's not as good as the German translation, he just says I'm a doctor or something like that if I remember it correct
15:23:35 <Bjarni> btw speaking of Germany... Angela Merkel were on TV
15:23:53 <Bjarni> apparently she got boobs
15:23:54 <Mirrakor> angela merkel and her breast... *shrughs*
15:24:47 <Bjarni> I was not too happy about her before this incident
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15:24:58 <Bjarni> now she is history in my opinion
15:24:58 <ln> Eddi|zuHause2: Star Trek: First Contact was so well dubbed in Polish that i couldn't help laughing my ass of even though i don't understand Polish.
15:25:28 * hylje doesnt think star trek is comedy gold to begin with
15:25:29 <Bjarni> read the first half of that line and though "What? He knows Polish?"
15:27:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> star trek 4 and 6 are quite comically
15:27:27 <SmatZ> yeah :) "Computer, hello, computer" :)
15:28:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> "these were not his knees" ;)
15:28:24 <ln> Eddi|zuHause2: original voices can be heard from the background, one single male voice speaks everyone's lines, including females'.
15:28:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln: yes, i know how polish translations work ;)
15:29:06 <ln> yeah, so, try to listen to such without laughing.
15:29:09 <Mirrakor> Eddi|zuHause2: In the english version he just says: "Dr. Jan-Itor" (Janitor engl. Hausmeister), he refered to himself as "Dr. Jan Itor" a few times
15:29:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's even funnier when they speak german in the background ;)
15:29:33 <Bjarni> at one time somebody read about a new addition to MacOS (pre OSX days) and he wrote an Email about how great it would be to get it. He thought it was something from the future and wrote "Star Trek anyone?". Somebody replied with "did they finally add a mic to the mouse?"
15:30:37 *** [1]Mark is now known as Mark
15:31:11 <Bjarni> how can it be funnier when they speak German?
15:31:16 <DaleStan> <Belugas> "often" ... dos it mean ALWAYS ? <-- The Text ID range is always D000..D3FF. Some TTDPatch callback handlers only accept 8-bit returns, but this is, IMO, only for hysterical raisins.
15:31:16 <DaleStan> <teeg> D0xx means D000..D3FF? wouldn't that mean Dxxx? <-- No. There are 5 different ranges in Dxxx. D000..D3FF is NFO-writable, D400..D7FF is NFO-read-only, D800..DBFF is read-only in Patch code and undefined in NFO, DC00..DCFF is completely different NFO-writable range, and DD00..DFFF is undefined everywhere.
15:31:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: (very) rarely they add jokes when there weren't any in the original
15:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> these NFO conversations are fun, one sentence every 12 hours ;)
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15:38:29 <Bjarni> in one of the first Tintin movies they changed what they said in the Danish translation. They added parodies of famous Danes and wordplays and stuff like that
15:38:37 <Bjarni> now I really wonder what they actually said in the original
15:40:02 <Bjarni> they did make a great deal out of it and used some of the most famous movie actors to add the voices. The sports broadcast on a radio were spoken by a real (and most likely most famous ever) sports reporter
15:40:34 <Bjarni> you don't see such a collection of people adding voices for a cartoon today
15:41:06 <Bjarni> Mwa: let me guess... you got run over and then you were raised by a necromancer so you could state that you returned, right?
15:41:23 <SmatZ> maybe they are not allowed to change text in translation that much
15:41:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: they often do that kind of stuff for the simpsons here
15:41:55 <hylje> so are localized wordplays
15:43:11 <Bjarni> I read that Monsters Inc had an interesting German translation. The Yeti spoke Austrian and said that he would rather have gone to his relatives in the Alps than to the Himalayas
15:43:29 <Bjarni> maybe this is a reference on how Austrians behave or looks or something xD
15:43:51 <Mwa> Bjarni, no. I did buy a potted plant though.
15:45:06 <Mwa> Oh, and I had a thought for openttd: You should be able to fund new towns like you can with industries
15:45:12 <Bjarni> I like a certain part of the Danish subtitles on "'Allo 'Allo". There were a play on words in English and word by word translation wouldn't work. They figured out how to rephrase it to keep the context and the play on words
15:45:18 <Bjarni> now that was rather impressive
15:45:19 <Kloopy> Mwa doesn't read the forums. ;)
15:45:22 <Belugas> thanks DaleStan. "Some TTDPatch callback handlers only accept 8-bit returns, but this is, IMO, only for hysterical raisins." Identifying those who are 15bits aware precisely can be a bitchy task, i would assume. The callbacks wiki page lacks that information, from waht i've read so far
15:46:45 <Bjarni> he asked where the forums are, not where the thread about that topic is
15:46:52 <Bjarni> you replied incorrectly :P
15:46:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> typically, around 50% of the word plays or references get lost in a translation from english to german
15:47:09 <Kloopy> If you want to be pedantic, Bjarni, he didn't ask where the forums are, he just asked if there were any. :P
15:47:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> i remember an NCIS episode, where they tried to translate chat acronyms like "LMAO"
15:47:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> you could immediately tell that it was a total failure
15:48:02 <Bjarni> Mwa: yes there are forums on the internet :P
15:48:24 <Bjarni> he didn't ask where either
15:48:31 <Bjarni> Mwa: yes there are forums :P
15:48:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> the forum romanum for example...
15:48:45 <Kloopy> But it shows how clever and helpful we are because we did our best to work out what he REALLY meant to ask!
15:49:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> in the middle of rome, like the name suggests
15:49:17 <Mwa> I went and looked on openttd.org for 'forums' when you said about them. :p
15:49:42 <Mwa> I doubt I would have found that topic though. Thans.
15:50:29 <Kloopy> I find that if there's a feature I really want it's either in the "Suggestions" forum or someone has already done some work and I can find it on the "Development" forum.
15:50:44 <Bjarni> the forums are a great resource for ideas and info about the game
15:50:59 <Bjarni> however you should watch your steps as you might be attacked by ignorance and stupidity
15:51:06 <Bjarni> it's the internet after all
15:51:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> Mwa: forums.openttd.org should work
15:55:14 <Kloopy> If the person with responsibility for DNS on the openttd.org domain wanted to do that, there's no reason to not implement both URLs.
15:56:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's most likely truebrain
15:56:31 <Kloopy> I realise this might be a really naughty questions considering the channel we're in. But I know a fair few people who love to play OpenTTD but none that play TTDPatch. What's different about Patch and why are there two competing games that could surely combine resources and implement more features?
15:57:06 <Ammler> Kloopy: they already do -> NewGRFs
15:57:18 <DaleStan> Kloopy: Language, and development goals. At least.
15:57:20 <Kloopy> Of course NewGRFs, but there's so much more to it than that.
15:57:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> Kloopy: hysterically, TTDP was first, so it has got a head start on the amount of features
15:57:27 <Belugas> that conversation is not going to happen. Don't want to hrea a war in here...
15:57:33 <Bjarni> the forum users declared war on us o_O
15:57:37 <Kloopy> I don't meant to start a war, Belugas.
15:57:48 <Belugas> that's a topic VERY prone to a war
15:57:57 <Bjarni> Maybe a good idea to create a subforum in which posters can warship the devs? <--- this is what somebody wrote and he gained support in no time
15:58:02 * Kloopy throws petals over everyone to make them smile.
15:58:07 <DaleStan> Well, "didn't mean to" doesn't mean it isn't going to happen.
15:58:24 <Mwa> what, "Why don't we comebine forces so everyone can be happy" is fighting talk? ;O
15:59:06 <DaleStan> Because it's been said umpteen times before, and everyone except the person asking the question this time knows it's completely impossible.
16:00:35 <peter1138> personally i consider people like dalestan helping out here as 'combining resources' ...
16:01:27 <peter1138> just a bug report even, heh
16:01:30 <Kloopy> I just didn't/don't quite understand why there are two separate and very similar community driven and voluntary based coding groups.
16:01:37 <Belugas> and we favor collaboration a lot more than confrontation, or competition for what's worth
16:01:44 <Kloopy> peter, he's just stealing your ideas. ;) :P
16:02:00 <peter1138> rubbish, i have no original ideas
16:02:41 <Mwa> Also according to their site ttdp hasn't updated in a year
16:02:48 <Kloopy> I was just reading that too.
16:03:00 <DaleStan> It was last updated approximately 12 hour ago.
16:03:07 <Ammler> there aren't many ASM coder left ;-)
16:03:12 <Kloopy> Just no "official" releases?
16:03:26 <Mwa> It was? Well, 24 hours ago it said it was last updated in 2007
16:03:42 <Kloopy> Mwa, it's a nightlies style update.
16:03:52 <peter1138> code update, not release
16:04:03 <Ammler> DaleStan: the new Transparent GUI looks a little bit confusing
16:04:04 <Kloopy> Not an offical version numbered release, just a general, "we've added this code and compiled it for you, aren't we nice2.
16:04:58 <Mwa> That was the wrong application, whoops.
16:05:48 <DaleStan> Wally was suggesting that I only use the obviously three-state buttons when transparent or invisible is selected. I haven't done that yet, though.
16:06:04 <Ammler> well the one from OTTD isn't that better
16:08:37 <Roujin> well for three states it's hard to find a solution which is _not_ confusing i guess
16:08:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> assembler is not compiled. it is assembled
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16:10:30 <Roujin> if you count that, it's 6 states
16:10:37 <Ammler> does it need to show all possible states everytime?
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16:11:03 <Roujin> because locking is a boolean option individual from the other, tri-state option
16:14:45 <Roest> it's dirty but seem to work
16:14:48 <ln> does "thirty pieces of silver" automatically mean something to some of you?
16:15:28 <Roest> in a rpg sense? like from 50 games or so
16:15:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln: i only know "pieces of eight"
16:15:48 <Ammler> Roest: it works as a client side only patch, doesn't?
16:16:11 <ln> in a biblical sense (which i know after i googled it).
16:16:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln: then it has to do with judas
16:16:34 <ln> but was said in a non-biblical context.
16:17:10 <ln> yeah, judas it is, but at least i never remember hearing pieces of silver stressed in those stories.
16:17:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, i heard of it, but i neither know wether 30 was the exact number nor would i automatically place this in biblical context
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16:20:35 <Ammler> Roest: works, nice done, thank you :-)
16:22:12 <Ammler> hmm, one little glitch: not possible to rise size horizontally.
16:23:15 <Roest> yea i see that now, probably because windows flags changed a bit since he wrote it
16:24:46 <Ammler> I guess, I should be able to find the size in the code, so I can change that self...
16:25:59 <Roest> it's in line 524 in newgrf_gui.cpp
16:26:56 <Roest> still can't see why it's not resizable in that direction
16:30:14 <Roujin> i'd like to know the opinion of openttd devs regarding my menu jumping patch. dalestan argued in my thread that it's wrong to use signs for something like that. I think it's okay to do so, for some reasons I also wrote in my thread. Now, what do you think about it? (Belugas, Bjarni, peter1138, Rubidium)
16:31:00 <Yexo> Roest: all your widget definitions have RESIZE_TO, which means move down, RESIZE_NONE -> stay, or RESIZE_BOTTOM -> make vertical bigger
16:31:15 <Denyerec> Tell you what, on my screen OTTD sometimes feels like an eye test
16:32:21 <Yexo> there are no widgets that are horizontal resizeable
16:32:26 <Roest> yea i'm checking something, he had the title at resize_none
16:34:00 <Ammler> Roujin: in the meantime: I like that patch very much, did you read my question in your thread about?
16:35:37 <Ammler> it would be cool to have a button, sighting or something like that which you can click and the client jumps from one sign to the next...
16:35:53 <Ammler> like you do with title
16:36:39 <Ammler> sometimes I use follow train for simulating that :-)
16:37:11 <Zuu> Someone on mac that can help out checking the keycode of the '+' key (not the one on the numpad but the other one). As help the keycode that OpenTTD uses for minus is 0x1B or 27 in decimal.
16:38:16 <Zuu> One way to get it is possible to run synergy in debug level 1 and read it from its debug window.
16:40:56 <Roujin> Ammler: I've read that, but in normal games, i think signs won't exactly be placed in a manner that such a sightseeing mode would make sense..
16:42:02 <Ammler> it would fit #openttdcoop style :-)
16:42:13 <Ammler> we tend to sign interesting things
16:42:16 <Roujin> for example take any openttdcoop game ;) it will stay on the voting board for an eternity ;)
16:42:41 <Roujin> yes, but signs are also used for communication there..
16:42:41 <Zuu> Some filter would perhaps be usable.
16:43:20 <Ammler> a customizeable filter should it be then
16:43:42 <Ammler> I would filter to have a space or a "!" in front for coop games
16:44:30 <Ammler> Roujin: other thing is also the possibility to move the start menu...
16:45:04 <Roujin> to be honest i don't want to go down into the string system and make a filter.. especially a configurable one O_O sorry..
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16:53:47 <Roujin> Ammler: If you want to do something like this on a openttdcoop game, you could make it yourself by making a start sign: ##sightseeing _start and then ##sightseeing 01 to xx then ##sightseeing end. Then use the "cycle through signs" feature to make the tour.
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16:57:28 <Ammler> Roujin: the "cycle through signs" feature could also be runnes ingame, you mean?
16:58:48 <Mwa> Is there a list of good NewGRFs to install?
16:59:32 <Belugas> you should check on forums, that question has been asked a lot
16:59:44 <Belugas> and it's all dependant toyour style
17:02:28 <Zuu> I wonders if macintosh differs between keypad plus and normal plus as I've failed to find any documentation that gives any keycode on the normal plus key.
17:02:59 <Mwa> I can find out for you, if I can remember the program that shows keycodes
17:03:35 <Zuu> Google gave me a program that looked like some shareware stuff.
17:04:25 <Mwa> I did have one at one point
17:06:19 <Zuu> Synergy is an open source program to share keyboard between computers that can be used too, if you rather want to trust an open source program.
17:06:53 <Patrick`_> macs are full of shareware for some reason
17:06:55 <Zuu> what do you get on the - key?
17:06:58 <Patrick`_> it's like mac programmers are too good
17:07:27 <Mwa> First one is the keyboard, second is the keypad
17:07:58 <Zuu> Mwa: openttd have 0x1B on the '-' key, can you confirm that?
17:08:44 <Mwa> - as in -_ or the keypad?
17:09:31 <Zuu> the ?+ is the non-keypad + key right?
17:09:50 <Mwa> The ? displays as the shift symbol here
17:10:07 <Zuu> Nice, then I hope there is not much more to fix on the zoom with +-key patch.
17:10:29 <Mwa> The keypad - is 78 / 0x4e
17:11:32 <Wolf01> Rubidium, yes, you can close the flyspray tast about the transparency features
17:11:49 <Zuu> same as in openttd. Though the patch is about the non keypad +-key.
17:12:13 <Zuu> Which currently is not implemented in neither driver.
17:15:11 <Zuu> Mwa: In OpenTTD, zooming in with the +? key should work currently. Am I correct?
17:15:30 <Zuu> (statement based on code)
17:15:47 <Denyerec> is there a Stabel v Nightly comparison document anywhere?
17:16:22 <Zuu> yes, as they share the same keycode :)
17:16:37 <Mwa> This is in 6.0, I haven't finished getting around to compiling the svn
17:17:09 <Zuu> 0.6 is probably recent enough.
17:22:53 <Zuu> Hmm, you don't want to have two diferent WKC_ codes that gives the same keycode on one platform (MAC), on the other hand currently on windows the +-key can not be used as the = key to zoom in. So we have a conflict here.
17:24:23 <Zuu> Either we on driver level emulates = as + on windows and linux or we have to be aware that WKC_PLUS and WKC_EQUALS coresponds to the same keycode on one platform.
17:25:01 <Zuu> Correction: emulate + as =
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17:48:23 <Mwa> Does it matter if you apply a patch to a newer revision than it says it's for?
17:49:18 <Patrick`_> if the patch applies successfully, try it and see
17:49:21 <SmatZ> if it applies, then there is a chance it will work
17:49:40 <Roujin> Mwa: how many revisions apart?
18:02:35 <Roest> roujin, whats the benefit of the traffic lights patch other than eyecandy?
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18:09:20 <Roujin> hm, if you enable the setting that towns build their own traffic lights, you can see it as a new challenge in gameplay. towns will have traffic lights (if someone funds road construction or you use it together with my random road construction patch), so you'll try to route your trucks around towns and not through them..
18:10:20 <Roujin> it does not improve speed of road traffic in any way, that's true - at least i haven't found any situation where it would.
18:11:02 <Roujin> since road vehicles don't have to wait at junctions like it is in real life, and they can go through each other and so on...
18:11:47 <Roest> so someone still uses trucks?
18:13:25 <Fingon> busses mostly, to make towns grow
18:13:45 <Belugas> for the little time that i test stuffs
18:14:08 <ben_goodger> I do when I cannot be bothered to make a double-station train
18:14:09 <planetmaker> Roest: trucks are nice for short-distance delivery
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18:16:49 <extspotter> if anyone wants to join a game !UKRS is the one Im in
18:17:08 <extspotter> its in 2001 at the moment
18:17:14 <Roest> does it mean you are not using the UKRS?
18:19:00 <Roujin> noooo, the world will end
18:19:18 <Roujin> compile farm did not succeed as usually :O
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18:22:49 <Roujin> yes, but!!! isn't morphOS like the most important OS out there?
18:23:16 <Zuu> hmm, how ugly is it to call a function on a case: -line, which takes the switch-var as argument? I guess that is pretty ugly, but usefull in some cases. (example: http://paste.openttd.org/2376)
18:23:19 <Belugas> anyne on Morphos who can fix it?
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18:23:57 <Roujin> well i'm going away now anyways, so you won't be bothered with my weird humor :P
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18:26:24 <SmatZ> and well, I think it is ugly :)
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18:26:43 <SmatZ> you are missing some ';' and keywords
18:27:40 <Fingon> it looks original but i'm still trying to figure out what it does exactly :P
18:28:13 <Zuu> SmatZ: I don't see any missing ;.. but I might be ;-blind :p
18:28:29 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12736 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Codechange: a (small) touch of coding style in viewport.cpp.
18:29:34 <Zuu> Fingon: It removes the modifier bits before it compares the pressed key with a specific key-code. So that it does not matter if shift, alt, or any other modifier key is down. OpenTTD have many dublicate checks for with or without shift-key, and have completely missed the alt-key in many cases.
18:30:03 <Mwa> Does svn update warn with conflicts?
18:30:18 <Zuu> SmatZ: I have not tried to do so :)
18:32:13 <Belugas> "return (plain_pressed_key == key_to_checkfor) ? pressed_key : INVALID_KEY;"
18:33:00 <Fingon> "return (pressed_key & !MODIFIER_BITS == key_to_checkfor) ? pressed_key : INVALID_KEY;"
18:33:32 <Belugas> MSVC might not like it
18:34:18 <Belugas> Mwa : U = updated, G = merged, C = conflits
18:35:22 <DaleStan> And !MODIFIER_BITS is just all-around bad. Are you quite sure you didn't mean ~MODIFIER_BITS?
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18:45:54 <Zuu> DaleStan: I meant the not MODIFIER_BITS. Though I'm not used to bit the bit operators. So yes after checking up bit operators, it should possible be ~ instead of !
18:46:45 <Zuu> Hmm, and I think I have to forget the whole idea as g++ does not seam to like the idea of a function call in a case-statement :(
18:47:19 <Fingon> just make two switches, 1 switching on the original key_pressed value and one on the modified
18:47:54 <Rubidium> Zuu: function calls in switches happen quite often in openttd, so I suppose g++ supports them
18:48:02 <DaleStan> ! is logical; it turns "false" into "true" and all other values into "false". ~ is bit-wise; it inverts every bit.
18:48:13 <Rubidium> or maybe it could be that debian uses a special build that supports calling functions from switches
18:48:31 <Zuu> Rubidium: from switch (...) or from case: ... ?
18:49:29 <DaleStan> I am unaware of any place where a function call isn't valid, unless it demands a compile-time constant.
18:49:33 <Rubidium> on both places where you have placed dots, assuming there's something before the colon
18:50:26 <Fingon> i think he means case function(): instead of case 4 :
18:50:30 <Zuu> my bad, case ... : it should be.
18:50:52 <peter1138> ah, you can't d that
18:51:22 <Zuu> Okay, as g++ just told me. :)
18:54:01 <Rubidium> but it isn't specifically g++ that doesn't support it, it is (AFAIK) not part of the C++ specifications
18:55:09 <Fingon> idd, switches need constants so they can be compiled as a lookup table for speed
18:55:17 <Zuu> yea. I've never seen it, and I just though it could be usefull in some key-related situations. But I've now found out it is not supported by C++. :)
18:55:46 <Zuu> And even if it would be allowed by C++ I would doubt it would be accepted into trunk because of the uglyness.
18:56:27 <Zuu> I mean if changing a switch-case to ifs is to ugly, then this would be just as ugly if not more.
18:57:51 <Belugas> [14:53] <@Rubidium> but it isn't specifically g++ that doesn't support it, it is (AFAIK) not part of the C++ specifications <-- nor is it in Delphi either
18:58:43 <SmatZ> I think Basic supports that
19:01:20 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12737 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: Replace vector with a cut down class to allocate space as necessary. This avoids copying data around for vector's push_back() function.
19:05:33 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
19:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> let's rewrite all switches with "proper" virtual function calls ;)
19:09:58 <Bjarni> but would it make sense to do so?
19:10:39 <Rubidium> yay... creating an object for *every* typed character
19:10:41 <ln> of course not, it wasn't that way in the original game.
19:11:08 <Mwa> latest svn has visual glitches in 10.5
19:11:46 <Rubidium> well, show me an OpenTTD without visual glitches
19:12:53 <peter1138> 'latest' is not a version ;)
19:16:22 <Zuu> I've brough the WKC_PLUS patch up to date and added support for Windows and MacOSX, but there is a major problem: WKC_PLUS and WKC_EQUALS equals to the same keycode on MacOSX, which could lead to future problems if someone is not aware of it.
19:17:21 <Zuu> Another approach could be to make win32 and sdl driver send WKC_EQUALS when the non numpad '+' is pressed, to make it concistent over all platforms.
19:17:51 <Zuu> Some input on prefered way is welcome.
19:18:47 <Bjarni> <Mwa> latest svn has visual glitches in 10.5 <-- do you mean the head revision of OpenTTD or svn itself :p
19:19:30 <Bjarni> also telling what glitches would also help
19:23:38 <Mwa> Oh, parts of the track and train were flickering in and out of view. I'm not entirely sure what revision it was. I just used svn checkout
19:24:08 <Bjarni> I haven't seen that issue before
19:24:18 <Bjarni> or rather: I have never seen it
19:24:20 <yorick> revision is in titlebar then
19:24:35 <Bjarni> and in the about window
19:25:56 <Mwa> Uh, I removed it and backdated
19:26:55 <Bjarni> then we will not hear you whine anymore :P
19:27:34 <Bjarni> anyway I'm out of here
19:28:17 <Mwa> I was just pointing it out. By the way, what's enhanced_tunnel and why can I find nothing about it other than things that support it?
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19:28:52 <Mwa> well, NewGRFs that support it
19:34:55 <Zuu> Mwa: If I'm not mistaken enchanced_tunnel is a feature in TTDPatch that allow you to build track on tunnel entrances.
19:35:31 <DaleStan> Mwa: Because you're not looking on the TTDPatch wiki.
19:36:57 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r12738 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix (r12736): some sprites could be left unsorted
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20:01:16 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12739 /trunk/src/ (misc/smallvec.h viewport.cpp): -Codechange: use a vector instead of allocating memory in a byte array for ParentSpriteToDraw.
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20:27:36 <governor> How do i create planes>
20:28:34 <governor> Do i need to build a hangar?
20:28:41 <Rubidium> or using a text editor, a proper drawing program and grfcodec
20:29:07 <Rubidium> governor: no, but if you want to build planes then you should build a hangar (though hangars are part of airports)
20:29:29 <governor> In my airport construction dealy all i see are airports :[
20:29:55 <Rubidium> hangars are part of airports
20:30:21 <Rubidium> as in: if you build an airport, you get a hangar (or more) for free, except for some heli stuff
20:30:21 <governor> when i was clicking it, it appeared on the far right side
20:30:37 <governor> I couldnt see the new airplane button because the thing was way off
20:31:19 <governor> yeah, i looked there for airports
20:31:35 <governor> but like I am saying now, the new airplane button and stuff was hiding
20:32:08 <Roest> those pesky little buggers always hiding
20:34:01 <governor> are the bakewell lucketts supposed be to DC-9s and stuff?
20:35:53 <Roest> you should get a newgrf with planes to get some realistic names
20:37:52 <Roest> is there a way to link two settings? like if i have a min and a max value and i want that min value always <= max
20:38:06 <governor> i'm not the guy to ask
20:38:12 <Roest> or can a user set any value there and i have to test for that later
20:38:34 <Rubidium> with a callback you can do that
20:39:57 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12740 /trunk/src/ (misc/smallvec.h viewport.cpp): -Codechange: use a vector instead of allocating memory in a byte array for ChildScreenSpriteToDraw.
20:42:27 <Ammler> is there a new feature in trunk to set company pw automatically?
20:43:18 <Ammler> ah, I tested default company pw
20:44:51 <Ammler> it would be nice to set company pw over rcon
20:45:25 <Ammler> but I guess, not possible anymore, because of the hash
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21:06:33 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12741 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Codechange: do not allocate the viewport drawer each time on the stack, but only once and reuse this.
21:10:21 <Nite> did anyone check brienettas server
21:11:06 <Nite> you get dropped out imideatly after youlogged on.
21:11:24 <Nite> not even time to make savegame.
21:22:24 <dih> anybody here familiar with jsp?
21:53:20 <Roest> current savegame is still 93 right?
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22:12:35 <Roest> is anyone using the modern tram set?
22:16:27 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: richk * r12742 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (35 files in 6 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r12673:12705.
22:34:26 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: richk * r12743 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (36 files in 7 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r12705:12741.
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