IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-02-29
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00:18:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12315 /branches/noai/ (4 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix: AITunnel::GetOtherTunnelEnd() now also works to estimate where a non-existing tunnel would end (Morloth / glx)
00:22:41 <Gonozal_VIII> non existing tunnel :S
00:25:56 <glx> Gonozal_VIII: when planing a route
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00:37:51 <fjb> Nice to see all the work on the ai.
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00:50:39 <fjb> Playing with the original road vehicles only in a game has one big disadvantage. They hardly make enough profit to buy new vehicles when they are getting old.
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01:36:31 <fjb> My sand-castle is more important than your sand-castle.
01:36:43 * fjb should stop reading the forum.
01:39:44 <Poopsmith> i'll sand-castle you in a minute
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01:43:49 <Poopsmith> nah, the beach is too far away
01:46:56 <Poopsmith> it's one of those days where you think "oh, must be about 5pm" then look at the clock and discover it's only quarter to three
01:48:03 <fjb> My multiplayer game is boring now.
01:48:11 <Poopsmith> yeah, thats the problem i'm having
01:48:30 <Poopsmith> was thinking of trying a coop game for something different, but its using a nightly that doesnt seem to work on mac
01:48:44 <Poopsmith> (it being the openttdcoop public server)
01:49:52 <Poopsmith> oh, ok... i'll give it a try
01:51:29 <fjb> We are having a friendly competitive game.
01:52:22 <fjb> The problem ist that the original road vehicles are the only vehicles in the game. Sounded like fun at first, but it is a bit boring.
01:54:07 <Poopsmith> problem on my game seems to be that the others don't seem to be playing anymore
01:54:50 <fjb> I'm spending all my money on replacing old vehicles.
01:55:37 <Poopsmith> glx: thanks, the ppc version works
01:56:25 <Poopsmith> i think thats the first non-universal app i've run on this mac o_O
01:56:50 <fjb> Should be a bit smaller then.
01:57:06 <Poopsmith> yeah, but a bit slower, cos of the emulation
01:58:15 <fjb> Sacro: Don't talk about thinks you don't know about.
02:04:52 <fjb> That vehicles have a small payload.
02:06:26 <Gonozal_VIII> payload? are you delivering to your moonbase or something?
02:08:45 <fjb> How else do you call the load that gets payed for.
02:09:09 <Gonozal_VIII> payload is for rockets and maybe planes...
02:09:16 <fjb> That truck has a small cargo. Sounds wrong.
02:09:50 <Gonozal_VIII> well... payload may be correct but it sounds strange too
02:10:49 <fjb> I don't think is sounds that strange. Why should that term be limited to flying objects?
02:10:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> i would translate "payload" with "useable capacity"
02:11:29 <Gonozal_VIII> maybe it's just my association...
02:12:14 <fjb> Better your association than your assasination.
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02:16:11 <fjb> Profit is only about 20% of the running costs.
02:16:58 <Gonozal_VIII> good investment :-)
02:18:20 <fjb> Original road vehicles only in that game. No trains, no ships, no planes, no vehicle grf.
02:20:04 <Eddi|zuHause3> grr... autoroad urgently needs a visual representation of the selected road bit
02:20:25 <fjb> 272 vehicles, income 9798336, running costs 7544028.
02:20:58 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause3: That would sometimes help.
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08:41:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12316 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp:
08:41:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Support loading full range of 0xD0xx NewGRF strings which
08:41:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: includes 0xD000 to 0xD3FF (yes, 0xD0xx makes a lot of sense, really...)
08:41:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: and handle 0xD400 to 0xD7FF strings which map to 0xD000 to 0xD3FF
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08:48:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12317 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Fix [FS#1815]: Map string IDs that are embedded from other strings.
08:51:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12318 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AICompany::(Build|Get)CompanyHQ (college of Morloth)
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11:03:35 <mulrich|laptop> I can't build anything in the game! ;_;
11:03:55 <mulrich|laptop> Well, except for road buildings
11:04:06 <mulrich|laptop> I can't build rails, trucks, trains, etc
11:07:27 <bumblebee> well if u havent paused the game I dont know
11:08:19 <peter1138> Usually that’s caused by starting the game before any vehicles are available.
11:08:34 <mulrich|laptop> When are the vehicles available?
11:08:51 <mulrich|laptop> It makes no sense that railroads aren't available in 1925
11:09:28 <mulrich|laptop> Since the first stretch of railroad was opened a hundred years before that
11:11:32 <Phantasm> 1950 is a good option to start.
11:11:41 <Phantasm> There are some train available before that as well, but not at 1925.
11:13:06 <Gekz> its time someone made a realism mod
11:13:13 <Gekz> with realistic car accidents
11:13:14 <Phantasm> Sub-arctic and tropical have first train at 1945 (some time during that year), temperate has first one at 1925 and toyland has first at 1946.
11:13:17 <Gekz> and pedestrians with bombs
11:13:32 <Phantasm> Gekz: For realilism mod, breakdowns would go down like hell.
11:13:32 <Vikthor> mulrich|laptop: You can use newgrf files(add-on sets), they add vehicles which are available before that
11:15:02 <Vikthor> eg. DBSet and CSDset are usable from 1920's, Serbian set AFAIK from second half of 19th century
11:15:29 <mulrich|laptop> I can't install TTDPatch either
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11:15:40 <Vikthor> and there are others USset, Japanese, French...
11:15:41 <mulrich|laptop> Unless I don't need that for that newgrf thing
11:16:05 <Vikthor> You can use NewGRF with OpenTTD you dont nedd TTDPatch
11:16:20 <mulrich|laptop> Where do I put it?
11:17:03 <Vikthor> in the data subdirectory, then you have to add it to game using NewGRF settings option in Main menu
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11:18:12 <Vikthor> but mind that you can use usually only one set at the time for each transport type
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12:22:00 <Zero_Dogg> are there any stores selling TTD still that is known, or do I need to ebay for it?
12:42:13 <ln-> Zero_Dogg: i bought one through amazon.co.uk not so long ago.
12:45:12 <Ammler> Hello, is it possible to "force" ottd only to look in data folder where openttd.cfg is stored? (ignoring mydocs)
12:46:31 <Roujin> copy the config file into the main folder (e.g. ...\OpenTTD)
12:47:15 <Roujin> then it should read and write from/to that one, and also put saves into \OpenTTD\save instead of mydocs\save
12:47:32 <Ammler> and it doesn't load GRFs from it?
12:48:05 <Roujin> from the mydocs folder? hmm good question
12:48:17 <Ammler> I like to make a clean "test environment"...
12:48:45 <Roujin> does it read GRFs from mydocs at all?
12:49:05 <Ammler> you should use that that way
12:49:09 <Ammler> if you have different revisions
12:49:22 <Ammler> so you need i.e. the original grfs only once
12:49:35 <Roujin> i didn't know that - I always put grfs in the install folder (\data\newgrf)
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12:51:17 <Roujin> nope, seems to check for newgrfs in the mydocs folder anyways
12:52:01 <peter1138> Just move them out of there temporarily, or set appropriate options for configure to not use it.
12:52:23 <Roujin> <Roujin> then it should read and write from/to that one, and also put saves into \OpenTTD\save instead of mydocs\save <--- that was bs. you can save where you want of course
12:52:53 <Ammler> peter1138: of course, I'll do that now, but I was wondering, if there is an easier way.. :-)
12:52:55 <Roujin> with the config file in your openttd folder, it will place screenshots there as well
12:53:49 <Ammler> Roujin: it takes location from openttd.cfg
12:57:03 <Roujin> thanks for the hint with newgrfs in mydocs, that's something I didn't know ;)
12:59:24 <Ammler> there is also a "global" share place
12:59:32 <Ammler> if you share the pc with other users
13:00:19 <peter1138> Global is where the original data should go.
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13:58:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12319 /trunk/src/transparency_gui.cpp: -Cleanup: Comment fixes (Roujin)
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14:17:36 <Roujin> peter: what about the fix in transparency.h? is it not alright?
14:17:53 <peter1138> I got busy doing other stuff.
14:18:38 <peter1138> Well I am in the office doing work.
14:19:07 <Belugas> waht a conincidence :S
14:20:24 <Sacro> i am in the uni doing insertion srot
14:20:39 <Sacro> and playing Pokémon Yellow
14:20:46 <Roujin> was just wondering if there was something wrong with it, so nvm ;)
14:22:07 <Roujin> hmm.. I wonder if I should split off the random road construction from my traffic light patch and release it as a single patch
14:30:21 <Ammler> thank you, I hope, we can update it now faster
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15:00:04 <peter1138> - _transparency_opt |= ~_transparency_lock;
15:00:05 <peter1138> + _transparency_opt |= GB(~_transparency_lock, 0, TO_END);
15:00:11 <peter1138> Just that should do it, right?
15:00:32 <peter1138> If I understand the problem correctly.
15:01:22 <peter1138> Ammler, that teaser image looks nice :)
15:01:39 <peter1138> Not too keen on the perfectly straight river edges though.
15:02:07 <Belugas> # Riders On The Storm
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15:02:22 <peter1138> Doo, do do doo, do do doo, do do doooo
15:02:53 <Belugas> and on the Bass, Mr Nelson!
15:03:05 <Ammler> peter1138: thats made by Osai
15:04:07 <Roujin> mmmh that should do it, but I thought some more limiting to the valid bits only wouldn't hurt if for some reason there are strange values saved in the config
15:05:48 <Roujin> e.g. one enters strange values in the config; or a transparency option is removed in trunk, one updates to newest revision and starts then..
15:08:45 <Roujin> I'd at least change the if clause to check only the valid bits
15:09:22 <SmatZ> invalid data won't be loaded from config file
15:09:23 <Roujin> so that if strange bits are set for some reason (that are not visible in any way for the user) the transparency toggle will not act in a strange way
15:09:31 <SmatZ> if it is invalid, it is set to 0x1ff
15:10:13 <Roujin> i mean valid as in bits 0..number of transparency settings
15:10:50 <Roujin> ok wait a second, you're right
15:12:13 <peter1138> I wanted to change as little as possible ;)
15:13:25 <Roujin> ok, argh, seems I didn't understand the actual problem up until now ><
15:14:21 <Roujin> then what you wrote should pretty much do it...
15:15:00 <Roujin> i'd still suggest to switch around the if-else because it's a kind of arkward double negation
15:15:49 <peter1138> Then I wouldn’t be changing as little as possible.
15:16:19 <Roujin> if (xxx == 0) then {foo;} else {bar;} ---> if (xxx) then {bar;} else {foo;}
15:17:28 <Roujin> If you want to change as little as possible, you shouldn't have included my comment fix that changed, in fact, nothing in the code. ;)
15:17:39 <peter1138> That’s why that was separate.
15:18:18 <peter1138> But we don’t tree values as boolean, so we’d need to do if (xxx != 0) then {foo;} else {bar;}
15:19:24 <Roujin> you don't? oO I'm pretty sure i've seen that a dozen times in the code... in fact i only learned that that was possible from the openttd code iirc...
15:19:47 <Roujin> is that regarded as bad coding style?
15:20:06 * Roujin goes reread coding style
15:20:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12320 /trunk/src/transparency.h: -Fix [FS#1817]: Wrong transparency options could be saved after toggling all.
15:22:04 <peter1138> That function is pretty horrible though.
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17:15:49 <ln-> new concept: "Cardassian sauna"
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17:47:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> ln-: is that a railtype? ;)
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21:51:51 <Bjarni> then stop talking garbage
21:52:06 <Bjarni> you need to do some research before presenting the results
21:52:07 <ln-> i thought it was captain planet, but yeah, it looks more like a Bjarni.
21:52:16 <dih> if i were (a) Bjarni - where would i hide
21:53:22 <Bjarni> <dih> if i were (a) Bjarni - where would i hide <-- the best hiding place is.....
21:53:47 <dih> no - that would not be your best hiding place
21:54:03 <dih> because then you would quickly find that you miss the "Bjanri!"
21:54:17 <dih> and i am not sure would would annoy you most
21:54:29 <dih> people saying it- or realizing that you actually would miss it :-P
21:55:13 <Bjarni> people do it all the time
21:55:52 <dih> did you get my email Bjarni?
21:56:26 <dih> and here we have someone who cannot read what it sais in the quotes
21:56:39 <dih> got a colon too many there Sacro :-P
21:57:32 <Bjarni> dih: that's because Sacro is looking for colons everywhere
21:58:02 <dih> he is probably looking for more than just colons everywhere ^^
21:58:03 <Bjarni> <dih> did you get my email Bjarni? <-- the newest one is like two weeks old
22:00:08 <dih> btw ladies, i had a great thought :-D
22:00:21 <dih> a ottd spectating server :-P
22:00:42 <dih> i.e. a game that joins a server as spectator, does all the drawing etc
22:00:55 <dih> and at the same time allows 11 other spectators to join :-D
22:01:12 <dih> of course no 'pause on join' allowed here
22:02:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r12321 /trunk/readme.txt: -Change: update readme about where openttd looks for files (based on dih work)
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22:08:15 <dih> leaving my lovely idea without any comments :-(
22:10:39 <Vikthor> dih: Show us the code and we can talk :D
22:11:14 <dih> i am working on something else when i have the time
22:11:42 <Vikthor> Yeah, I know that was just joke
22:11:47 <Gonozal_VIII> why are spectators even limited?
22:12:19 <Phantasm> Bjarni: Any idea when this will be possible as a route: 1) Buy a train to depot a 2) travel to station b and full load 3) travel to station c and unload 4) travel to depot d and sell <goto 1 as in it will buy a new one to different depot to replace the sold one and set it running> ?
22:13:10 <Gonozal_VIII> that idea sucks phantasm :P
22:13:14 <dih> when you have a decent script language that would be able to controll such actions
22:13:17 <Phantasm> IT won't suck, Gonozal_VIII.
22:13:40 <Patrick`> it saves on money for buying a return track, right?
22:14:33 <Phantasm> Patrick`: You get higher rating to station as the trains are always all new and that will give you more materials to transport.
22:14:45 <Bjarni> Phantasm: currently not possible
22:14:47 <Phantasm> You'll also have less breakdowns which will significantly matter on overused tracks.
22:14:47 <Vikthor> Phantasm: It's basically cheating, teleporting trains from depot to depot
22:14:50 <Bjarni> and don't hold your breath
22:14:56 <Bjarni> .... or maybe you should :P
22:14:56 <Phantasm> Vikthor: No teleport, it is sell and buy. :)
22:15:04 <Gonozal_VIII> but the fact that somebody suggests that shows that the resell value decreases way too slow
22:15:17 <Patrick`> ... or waypoint in a depot and autoreplace
22:15:30 <Bjarni> it would give me time to look at serious issues
22:15:44 <Phantasm> Vikthor: I'm paying for the new train and selling the old one to 'whoever wants it' and therefore it is no teleporting of train as it is other train.
22:15:49 <dih> i thought my ottd spectating server was more interesting ^^
22:16:19 <Phantasm> Gonozal_VIII: Well, it is in reality profitable on a long route.
22:16:46 <Phantasm> It will also increase the secondary factory goods amount as you have more goods from primary factory hauled.
22:16:48 <Gonozal_VIII> is not... you get much less money back for a used vehicle
22:16:59 <Phantasm> Gonozal_VIII: Not that much less. I have calculated it.
22:17:19 <Gonozal_VIII> i know, that's why i wrote it's wrong
22:17:30 <Gonozal_VIII> the value should be reduced much faster
22:17:38 <dih> the code for such a spectating server already exists... just needs a little rearranging ^^
22:17:41 <Vikthor> Phantasm: Sometimes more realism isn't that bad
22:17:45 <Phantasm> The extra goods you get for the higher rating is worth more than the cost of selling the train (also you won't have running costs for returning part).
22:17:53 <Phantasm> Vikthor: It is actually totally realistic.
22:18:03 <Gonozal_VIII> i know that it makes more profit but it shouldn't
22:18:10 <dih> trains should not be sellable ^^
22:18:20 <Phantasm> dih: Of course trains should be sellable.
22:18:31 <dih> buy a train - keep it until it crashes ^^
22:18:32 <Phantasm> Are you saying you can't sell a train in real life?
22:18:35 <Vikthor> What using loco for one route and than selling it is realistic?
22:18:48 <Gonozal_VIII> it's not realistic, ever seen a used car for almost the same price as a new one?
22:19:10 <dih> check the cars from the 20's ^^
22:19:16 <Gonozal_VIII> i'm not talking about oldtimers
22:19:35 <Phantasm> Vikthor: RL example: 1) Buy a hell of a lot of trains to be transported to your depot a like one a day 2) make them transport goods 3) sell them at depot b at the price someone is willing to pay.
22:19:39 <dih> nothing is ever good enough for you, is it?
22:20:09 <Vikthor> someone is willing to pay. -- that is exactly the problem
22:20:10 <Bjarni> Phantasm: how is that related to real life?
22:20:10 <Gonozal_VIII> how's that a rl example?
22:20:22 <Phantasm> Bjarni: That could be done in real life.
22:20:37 <Phantasm> Vikthor: At suitable price someone is willing to pay.
22:20:55 <Bjarni> Phantasm: tell me where this takes place in real life
22:21:21 <Patrick`> oh good, my favourite argument
22:21:21 <Phantasm> Bjarni: It COULD be done. No idea if someone is doing it or not, but it is possible.
22:21:39 <Patrick`> someone who wants to exploit a bug in the game justifies it by pointing out all the other ways it's not realistic.
22:21:44 <Phantasm> It is not my problem if some (idiot) pays me too much for the used train. ;P
22:21:48 <Bjarni> you have NO idea how trains are traded in real life then
22:22:06 <Phantasm> Bjarni: You could do it.
22:22:18 <Phantasm> Bjarni: If you have enough money to go around and want to do it so, you could do it.
22:22:21 <dih> yes - Bjarni probably could
22:22:34 <Phantasm> So? You could do it.
22:22:40 <Vikthor> not even Bjarni, he does not have the money I expect
22:22:52 <Bjarni> <dih> yes - Bjarni probably could <-- you really have high confidence in my railroad and trading skills
22:23:20 <dih> no - i dont have confidence in that
22:23:41 <dih> i only have confidence in you managing (some sneaky way i dont want to know how) to archieve such things ^^
22:23:57 <Phantasm> Bjarni: It is realistic to be able to be done. And in fact, I think on some cases it might be profitable even at scrap metal cost for the engine and wagons on selling.
22:24:08 <Vikthor> It was just guess, I dont know much engineers that could buy train they are driving
22:24:17 <Phantasm> One could argue that it being possible makes the cargo payments unrealistic.
22:24:22 <Patrick`> the resell value should include a "distance from purchased depot" degrasion
22:24:30 <Phantasm> Patrick`: No it shouldn't.
22:24:32 <Bjarni> actually I have been involved in buying a locomotive in real life
22:24:38 <Patrick`> since it's unfair to penalise people who buy a train then sell it without ever sending it on its way
22:24:38 <Phantasm> The reasell value should be as realistic as possible.
22:24:45 <Bjarni> price: another locomotive and two cars
22:24:47 <Vikthor> Bjarni: But only as part of your company
22:24:49 <dih> create a buffer of waggons
22:24:56 <Bjarni> none of it operational :P
22:24:58 <Patrick`> the resell value shouldn't penalise when you accidentally buy one too many
22:25:01 <dih> and a auto-refitting trains with different waggons
22:25:13 <Phantasm> Patrick`: It is your loss for buying too many.
22:25:28 <Phantasm> If you buy one train too many in real life, you will lose money.
22:25:56 <Bjarni> interesting enough trains do not suffer the same quick value drop as cars do
22:26:02 <Vikthor> Phantasm: Well but in RL its not enough to click one time too many to buy more waggons
22:26:35 <Bjarni> but you would still lose a lot on buying and then selling right away
22:29:19 <Phantasm> If you transport goods 4 000 squares (from corner to the opposite cornet on 2048x2048 map) with maglev.. Say wood to paper mill.. Then do the same route back for paper to printing works, again for goods to town near the corner.. That is 4000 squares of wood+paper+goods transported in relatively fast time so you still get good price. If you add the 13% boost to rating on the first station, you'll get 13% more money from all 3 of those effectively. And you ...
22:29:26 <Phantasm> ... could also make it such that you use same train with different wagons for whole run and then buy a new one. That would be one engine + 3 sets of wagons.. The route will net you more at the 13% increase in goods than the total buying cost of the engine + 3 sets of wagons.
22:30:04 <dih> you think i am gonna read a 10 line chat message?
22:30:06 <Phantasm> You repeat yourself.
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22:31:02 <Bjarni> it claims it to be a test coin
22:31:02 <Phantasm> Bjarni: So, any idea when will it become possible to make even such arbitary orders?
22:33:42 <dih> ROFL stands for Roll Over F***ing Lamer?
22:34:54 <dih> "and the little one said 'roll over'..."
22:35:56 <dih> i was expecting less of a conversation killer with thtat line ^^
22:36:36 <dih> oh - and good you did not take it personally ^^
22:38:12 <dih> Bjarni: if that coin had been photoshoped they would have dont a better job of it :-P
22:39:05 <Bjarni> it's a known fact that it's not a valid coin
22:39:45 <Bjarni> now the politicians wants to have an election about it.... again
22:39:50 <Gonozal_VIII> what are you talking about a coin?
22:39:53 <Bjarni> and it looks like it will be a no.... again
22:40:14 <dih> perhaps next year Bjarni ^^
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22:41:21 <Bjarni> dih: actually it looks like recent events has resulted in a more EU hostile opinion in the population
22:41:30 <Bjarni> and it's not something that will just switch back
22:42:00 <Bjarni> this is based on lying politicians (yes we know that they will lie but it's still bad when everybody can see when they do)
22:42:34 <dih> in the oxford there once was a 'say no to eu' stand
22:42:40 <dih> they wanted to hand me a flyer
22:42:53 <dih> and looked somewhat puzzeld when i said - no thanks - i am german ^^
22:44:37 <Phantasm> Bjarni: Here in Finland it seems they don't only lie, but also deal with stuff they have no idea about and make idiotic comments like they know exactlywhat they are doing.
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22:45:17 <dih> i have seen some similar behaviour
22:45:48 <dih> army in some foreight country
22:45:59 <dih> cannot remember what it was all about
22:46:26 <Bjarni> speaking of army in a foreign country
22:47:04 <Bjarni> at one time a Dane was working in USA and all of a sudden the conscription office declared that he should be a recruit because they needed soldiers for some war
22:47:21 <Bjarni> and they didn't care about his complain about not being a US citizen
22:48:30 <dih> i know a guy - an american
22:49:01 <dih> and all of a sudden got his german military service invitation
22:50:00 * Bjarni wonders if US army would draft people from Afghanistan to fight Taliban
22:52:53 <Phantasm> Of course they would.
22:56:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r12322 /trunk/src/group.h: -Fix (r9874): endian issue when saving/loading group owner
22:57:32 <Bjarni> why did it take that long before anybody noticed this issue we just fixed?
23:00:28 <Phantasm> Bjarni: Any chance for the power of the dual head engines to be fixed? They appear to be half of what they should be in all cases.
23:01:38 <Phantasm> Of course the power rating vary a lot etc, but comparing all the trains, you get enough statistics to prove the problem.
23:02:07 <Phantasm> As in dual head train should have twice the power of equivalent single head train.
23:02:40 <Bjarni> because you buy a set with a combined power of whatever it says
23:02:51 <Phantasm> Yes, but the set powers are too low when comparing it.
23:18:08 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
23:21:29 <guru3> it needs more desu, desu?
23:21:59 <SpComb> desu desu. I don't know what it means, but desu destu
23:22:10 <Phantasm> Bjarni: There is a list of all trains on temperate, sub-arctic and tropical divided into sections based on type. Steam trains aren't included as they have no dual head engines.
23:22:18 <guru3> that's the only rule 34 that i know
23:23:01 <SpComb> no, that must be a different rule
23:23:05 <SpComb> rule 34 is well-defined
23:25:08 <Phantasm> Bjarni: If you look into the list, you'll see that with very few exceptions the list follows so that newer trains in same section have some more speed and HP. But, as dual head trains, they should be equal to two similar single head engines and as such the power rating should be twice of that. But as you can see, they all have half the power with exception of temperate diesel 6 dual, which might just be one of those few engines that are just more powerful ...
23:25:14 <Phantasm> ... than engines commonly.
23:25:32 <Phantasm> dih: You repeat yourself a lot.
23:25:52 <dih> all my repeats summed up, dont fill one of your over length lines
23:26:20 <dih> gotcha speechless even with that ^^
23:26:40 <Phantasm> dih: Was doing something else.
23:26:51 <Phantasm> dih: Would it be better if I divided my 'over length lines' into 10 lines?
23:27:28 <dih> uh - look at me - i can write excessivly long lines with abosolutely no sense in them - and if anybody should actually care to read what i write, they might just be a little confussled
23:27:29 <SmatZ> Phantasm: interesting, yes
23:28:15 <dih> Phantasm: i am just pulling your leg
23:28:25 <dih> for the sake of pulling someones leg ^^
23:28:35 <Patrick`> fully consume every industry on a 64x64 map with dense industry settings
23:28:43 <Patrick`> by spending as little as possible
23:30:12 <Bjarni> Phantasm: I think it's intended to work as it works now
23:30:54 <Bjarni> there is a standard on how vehicles should work (newGRF stuff) and AFAIK we just follow those guidelines
23:31:22 <Phantasm> So, dual head engine just uses twice the space for equivalent output as the engine would have if it were single head?
23:31:27 <glx> and check the train properties once it is built
23:31:43 <Phantasm> glx: The displayed power is of the set, I have confirmed that.
23:31:55 <Bjarni> you forget to mention that the first two diesels in temperate are DMUs with passenger capacity. Unlike real locomotives they have the diesel engines under the floor making them way smaller
23:32:16 <Phantasm> Bjarni: Ok, I didn't take that into account. But look into all electric, monorail and maglevs?
23:32:42 <Phantasm> Bjarni: And those diesel trains that don't have cargo.
23:33:56 <Bjarni> the twin turbo diesel (diesel 7 in tropical) is built for speed, not power. The numbers look real on that one
23:34:47 <Phantasm> How about the monorail one?
23:34:50 <Bjarni> diesel 6 is Cennential, the biggest single frame locomotive in the world. If you look at it, it's two locomotives on one frame, giving it two real sized diesel engines
23:35:11 <Bjarni> so it should have twice the power of any other diesel engine of the same period
23:36:40 <Bjarni> <Phantasm> How about the monorail one? <-- now you are starting questions about the engine design. You just accepted that the numbers are real for diesel and either the game handles this correctly or it don't
23:37:11 <Phantasm> The figures are hand put in game (original TT, and passed on from that on).
23:37:12 <Bjarni> I don't get the monorail engines but that's the way they are designed for some reason
23:37:32 <Phantasm> They are what they are put and it isn't about how game handles them.
23:37:43 <Phantasm> So if diesel engines are fine, it won't say other engines are fine by default.
23:38:11 <Bjarni> the game handles these engines by a standard system
23:38:21 <Bjarni> it reads engines like they are designed
23:38:27 <Bjarni> and treats them the very same way
23:38:31 <Phantasm> It is irrelevant how the game handles them.
23:38:39 <Phantasm> It is about the design problems and not how game handles them.
23:38:54 <Bjarni> but... the design is not in OpenTTD
23:39:04 <Bjarni> you add some grf files from TTD, remember? ;)
23:39:17 <Phantasm> Yes it is copied from TTD. But OpenTTD could fix problems in the original.
23:39:31 <Bjarni> the question is if OpenTTD reads data correctly, not if we like the design in the files
23:40:52 <Bjarni> so you are asking us to alter the numbers on these engines, right?
23:41:06 <Phantasm> Yes, to make them more realistic.
23:41:30 <Phantasm> At least for monorail as it is obviously faulty.
23:42:21 <glx> Phantasm: use newgrfs if you don't like originals
23:42:40 <Bjarni> Phantasm: we are not changing vehicles we didn't design.... end of story
23:43:08 <glx> but you are free to modify them with newgrfs :)
23:43:50 <Phantasm> So, you don't change vehicles you didn't design, but you do have loads and loads of different things from the TTD. So just vehicle designs are an exception.
23:45:59 <Bjarni> vehicles aren't part of the game core
23:46:46 <fjb> The vehicles are in the files you need from your original TTD cd.
23:47:20 <Patrick`> the vehicles and stats are lifted directly from the original game
23:47:37 <Phantasm> It still doesn't mean they couldn't be changed (without altering original files).
23:47:43 <Patrick`> under a certain set of patch conditions and map generation conditions, the exact original game is playable. that's something we don't lose sight of
23:48:10 <Phantasm> It could be made a patch setting.
23:48:28 <Patrick`> oh boy, another patch setting
23:48:31 <SmatZ> no, this is what NewGRFs are good for
23:48:32 <glx> Phantasm: they can be changed, you just need to code a newgrf
23:48:33 <Patrick`> there are new vehicle sets out there
23:48:43 <fjb> And why should one loadable set of vehicles be changed when there are a lot of other loadable vehicle sets? Just load another set.
23:50:38 <fjb> Why should your microwave oven change your pizza when you just can buy another brand of pizza?
23:50:54 <Phantasm> You aren't getting the point clearly.. The fact there is newgrf system doesn't mean that should be used to fix everything. 95% of the newgrf vehicles are totally unrealistic, out of balance etc. And afaik you can only load one of those per vehicle type (or possible hope multiple work without no guarantee).
23:51:10 <Phantasm> That would effectively require me to maky my own newgrf to fix the problem.
23:51:38 <glx> ukrs and dbset are realistic
23:51:53 <Phantasm> It is hypocritic to state that just because the user can fix the problem it won't be fixed in the game with say patch setting that could be reversed.
23:52:07 <SmatZ> Phantasm: edit table/engines.h and have your own vehicle parameters :-P
23:52:13 <fjb> At least the rail sets are way more realistic then any of the original vehicles.
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