IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-02-19
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00:07:35 <Sacro> michi_cc: i thought that said n64.zip there :(
00:14:48 <fjb> michi_cc: I still have a case where a train locked itself in a station with v.4.2. The train doesn't find a free path path out of the station. After some time waiting it decides to reverse. But it forgets to clear the reserved part of the platform behind it (because it didn't leave that paltform). Not it has the reserved platform tiles in front of it and is locked.
00:20:13 <Gonozal_VIII> trains should check if there's a path behind them before reversing...
00:25:58 <fjb> Yes, that would help. The problem here is that the platform doesn't get released tile by tile, it gets released as a whole when the train left the platform. But it never leaves it.
00:26:35 <Gonozal_VIII> no path, no reversing, no problem :-)
00:27:43 <fjb> Cleaning up reserved path is not bugfree yet. That should be fixed.
00:42:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> <Gonozal_VIII> no path, no reversing, no problem :-) <- you are missing the problem
00:43:26 <Gonozal_VIII> i know the problem... station is always one piece
00:43:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> the train does not find a path because it hits its previously reserved, now invalid, path
00:45:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> ln-: why are you always 3 days late?
00:47:31 <ln-> this time joox.net didn't provide the thing at all. the previous times i only remembered a bit late.
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00:53:14 <ln-> had to get it from torrent this time, never before have i needed to revert to such complicated methods.
00:53:40 <Gonozal_VIII> since when is a torrent complicated?
00:55:03 <ln-> it's more complicated than saving a file to disk through firefox.
00:55:58 <Gonozal_VIII> open the .torrent file, wait until finished... nothing more
00:57:08 <ln-> the "wait until finished" part is also complicated, as it takes many hours.
00:57:32 <Gonozal_VIII> how big exactly are those episodes?
00:57:34 <glx> depends on file size and source count
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00:57:48 <Gonozal_VIII> i usually download 350mb episodes
00:57:50 <glx> and you need to open ports
00:57:53 <Gonozal_VIII> takes about 20 minutes
00:58:24 <ln-> and i don't really have open ports.
00:58:46 <glx> torrent without at least an open port is slow
00:58:58 <ln-> i usually download 350mb episodes through http, and it takes ~10 mins.
00:59:16 <Gonozal_VIII> would be faster but i only have 3mbit
00:59:42 <ln-> glx: i've noticed that.. actually i'm surprised i was actually able to get the file tonight and not next week.
01:01:00 *** glx changes topic to "0.5.3, 0.6.0-beta4 | Website: *.openttd.org (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 is mandatory"
01:10:37 <fjb> Hm, will YAPP become stable before 0.6.0?
01:10:59 <Gonozal_VIII> what has the one to do with the other?
01:11:07 <Belugas> even if he is, he's not going ot be in 0.6
01:13:00 <Gonozal_VIII> no big stuff gets in right before a release
01:16:05 <fjb> THE ECS coal mines are stupid, one train arriving late and the output drops from 500 tons to 30 in no time. But it needs ages (and a statue) to get back up near that level again.
01:17:03 <Gonozal_VIII> they are designed for patch, high transported% is easier to reach there
01:18:07 <ln-> what's the opposite of a flashback?
01:18:37 <fjb> Not disigned only for the patch. He smooth output change is only working in OpenTTD yet.
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01:28:28 <DaleStan> So, designed for Patch, where the things that cause breakage don't happen.
01:29:14 <Gonozal_VIII> and again in english please?
01:30:25 <fjb> No jams in patch? Sounds boring. :-P
01:34:24 <fjb> DaleStan: Are you the main patch develeoper now?
01:35:19 <DaleStan> It seems that way. JGR's good for foisting random "impossible" features on us, though.
01:35:40 <DaleStan> I keep hoping Patchman will come back from wherever he went.
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01:38:24 <Belugas> the newest recruit, if i'm not mistaken
01:38:42 * Belugas search "recruit" in his dictionnary
01:38:58 <fjb> I guess some features would cause the rewrite of the whole game. It is harder for a patch to push some limits than for a project like OpenTTD where you have the whole source and can change almost anything.
01:39:43 <Belugas> fjb, i would not say that...
01:39:49 <fjb> :-) My English is so bad, I wouldn't notice any difference.
01:39:59 <Belugas> both sides have their difficulties
01:40:35 <Belugas> for sure, it is easier for OTTD to do some massive changes. But it easier for us too to get some pretty nasty bugs
01:40:58 <fjb> Yes, but when you have the source you can just look into it and can change things using a high level language. Ofcourse you have to be backward compatible and things.
01:41:02 <Belugas> ttdp may have bugs too, but somehow, i think they are not as severe as some of ours
01:41:54 * SmatZ hopes there are not any 'severe' bugs in beta4
01:42:17 <Belugas> fjb, the sources are immense
01:42:21 <fjb> ttdp has astonishing few bugs, considering that it is heavy assembler hacking in something that you don't have a comented source of.
01:42:21 <Belugas> it is easy to get lost
01:42:42 <DaleStan> Most of ours are easily reproducible and fixable. Like when I confuse "call [esp]" and "call esp"
01:43:18 <fjb> Yes, it is. But assembler scares my more than C++. And I think even C++ is not the best language to write bugfree code.
01:46:00 <Belugas> no language is garanteed to write bugfree code...
01:46:17 <Belugas> helll. some wonderfull bugs i've done in delphi...
01:46:39 * ln- writes 100% bugfree code with C++.
01:46:53 <DaleStan> <fjb> something that you don't have a comented source of. <-- We do have two somewhat-commented "sources"; the DOS and Windows IDA databases. The DOS one is especially good at documenting the calling conventions.
01:47:14 <Gonozal_VIII> i can write hello world bugfree :-)
01:47:25 <fjb> You can have bugs in every project, but some languages help you to make fewer bugs.
01:48:49 <fjb> DaleStan: So the patch hooks into the os calls?
01:51:12 <DaleStan> No, the conventions for things like RefreshRectangle, which wants X1,X2,Y1,Y2 in ax,bx,dx,bp. Or the return values for GetLandscapeInfo. (Which fills [e]si, dh, dl and, di from ax and cx, IIRC)
01:52:06 <Sacro> Gonozal_VIII: go on then
01:52:32 <fjb> Ah, ok. The os calls are reference points for understanding the code inbetween?
01:52:45 <Gonozal_VIII> i can do it again...
01:52:49 <Gonozal_VIII> hello world bugfree
01:53:19 <DaleStan> The conventions of the TTD functions. I think the OS calls are mostly untouched, except that win2k fixes the DirectX calls.
01:54:22 <fjb> Still sounds far more difficult than to look at a huge C++ source.
01:55:47 <Belugas> depnds of your capacity of understanding and abstraction of the concept...
01:56:53 <fjb> Maybe. I have less problems with assembler than with machine code. And I even have less problems with a higher level language than with assembler.
01:57:36 <DaleStan> But some of the games we can play with register conventions get really quite nice. My understanding is that if you have a call stack ten functions deep that all deal with the same vehicle in C or C++, that vehicle pointer will appear on the stack once for each function. In Patch, it won't be on the stack at all; it'll be in ESI instead.
01:59:42 <SmatZ> one can create his own internal ABI if he needs so
01:59:43 <fjb> A good compiler will keep the pointer in a register then.
02:02:07 <DaleStan> But you can't declare that type of calling convention (at least with MSVC), and you have to use some convention so you know that the calls in file1.obj will fill the registers properly for the functions in file2.obj.
02:04:59 <fjb> You don't have to declare it. The compiler does it for you, if it is smart. the compiler sees the whole source, if it is devided into files or not. A smart compiler can have it's own custom conventions that work across file borders.
02:05:43 <SmatZ> compiler sees only the file(s) it is compiling
02:06:04 <SmatZ> for each object file, it starts from scratch
02:06:13 <DaleStan> Else, you'd have to recompile all objects because you changed one source file, and that obviously doesn't happen/
02:06:26 <fjb> That depends on the compiler.
02:07:21 <SmatZ> maybe you could compile whole OTTD in 1 compile run...
02:08:57 <fjb> Or the compiler could remeber his optimized calling conventions between diffenrent files.
02:09:26 <DaleStan> What happens when file1.obj is compiled, and then file2.cpp is changed so that a different convention is preferable?
02:11:11 <fjb> You get nonoptimal code. But you probably will have some debugging code anyway while you are developing. You can recompile the whole project for a realease and get optimized code.
02:11:54 <DaleStan> And what happens when the compiler can't find file1.obj, because it's called file1.o, or because it's yet to be created by some other tool, like NASM?
02:13:11 <fjb> Then it takes the nonoptimal default convention. For the release all the files have to be there. Else some parts of the program would be missing.
02:15:42 <DaleStan> And what happens when it compiles file1.o and file2.o (with whatever custom convention happens to be best) and then NASM generates file3.o, which assumes some earlier custom convention, and then the linker throws the whole mess together. How does the compiler know that the func1 and func3 are called by assembly code, while func2 is not?
02:16:39 <DaleStan> After all, the compiler doesn't see the assembly code.
02:17:10 <fjb> You have to tell the compiler that a function can not be optimized because it relies on some conventions out of it's scope.
02:17:15 <DaleStan> Only the assembler sees the assembly code, so the compiler can't make decisions based on what it might or might not contain.
02:19:36 <DaleStan> So I have to modify the C header to use the function in assembly? This is a feature? (And you still haven't named this hypothetical compiler that can do this magic within the bounds of the standard makefile, which compiles one file at a time, without giving the compiler any information as to what other files might or might not be related.)
02:19:41 <fjb> That assembler code is declared to be external code. So the compiler doesn't optimize that calls.
02:20:01 <DaleStan> No, the calls from assembler into C.
02:20:58 <glx> fjb: you should take a look at ttdpatch source ;)
02:21:08 <fjb> There are not only C compilers in the world. I have to admit that most C compilers didn't advance that much from the early 70s.
02:21:53 <fjb> Only compiling one file after the other limits the possibilities for optimization very much.
02:22:29 <fjb> is that source availlable?
02:22:31 <DaleStan> And every single makefile in existence does exactly that.
02:22:40 <DaleStan> svn://svn.ttdpatch.net/trunk
02:23:22 <fjb> It does that only in the world of C compilers.
02:23:55 <DaleStan> So, what language are you thinking of where it doesn't?
02:24:51 <SmatZ> that's the advantage of object files
02:25:06 <fjb> One is Eiffel. Most ML dialects are also more advanced.
02:25:12 <SmatZ> every object file can come from different compiler (even assembler) and be linked together by a linker
02:25:19 <DaleStan> And why is a language that OpenTTD and TTDPatch are neither using nor considering using relevant?
02:26:04 <DaleStan> And what benefit does having multiple source files provide if every object depends on every source file?
02:26:14 <fjb> Because a C compiler can adopt that behavior. And I'm not sure if really no C compiler does an optimisation over the whole sorce.
02:27:10 <fjb> The benefit is that you can handle the source better when it is in small files than it would be in one big file.
02:27:32 <DaleStan> Over whole file, sure. But it can't possibly do it over the whole source unless you tell it what constitutes the whole source.
02:27:52 <glx> having many files is also good to reduce compile time
02:28:18 <DaleStan> But if every object depends on every source file, does that still apply?
02:28:37 <glx> I don't want to recompile everything after changing a line in one file
02:29:17 <glx> and fjb suggestion totally breaks that
02:30:22 <fjb> As I said you don't have to compile the whole source while developing. You only do that for a release.
02:30:46 <SmatZ> I was thinking about this a few days ago...
02:30:59 <SmatZ> maybe it would have some benefit
02:31:13 <fjb> That is usual with many modern compilers for modern languages.
02:31:15 <SmatZ> like KDE, you can compile whole packages in one run
02:32:10 <fjb> C was developed in the early 70s. But coputers are smarter today.
02:32:47 <fjb> You have far more RAm and computing power today to do the optimisations.
02:33:28 <SmatZ> yes, that's why we have -O3 -ftree-ssa -ftree-loop-linear -fzomg-fast switches :)
02:33:38 <fjb> You compile unoptimized codes in small parts while developing. And then you do a compile run over the whole project for release.
02:34:44 <SmatZ> fjb: do you want to try to do this for openttd?
02:34:55 <SmatZ> maybe it wouldn't be hard
02:34:56 <fjb> But most people seam to only know C or C++, maybe some java.
02:35:53 <fjb> Do what for OpenTTD? Finding a C++ compiler that does that optimisations I was talking about?
02:36:09 <SmatZ> compile whole project at once
02:36:14 <SmatZ> so it can be better optimised
02:37:30 <SmatZ> probably makefile changes, path changes...
02:39:14 <fjb> Hm, I can look at it. Didn't work with makefiles for a long time.
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02:42:02 <fjb> Which compiler does support that option? GCC? Which version?
02:43:40 <SmatZ> probably gcc 4.x supports it
02:43:53 <fjb> Oh, I'm still having 3.4.6
02:43:55 <SmatZ> if it compiles everything in one run, it is fine :)
02:46:06 <fjb> GCC is availlable for most platforms. That would be an advantage.
02:48:10 <fjb> Looks interesting what they are doing.
03:02:47 <fjb> The --combine option would also be important beside the -fwhole-program option.
03:07:36 <fjb> The ttdp sources look a bit scaring. C++ is easier to read.
03:08:46 <DaleStan> Just don't get too worried when you see "jmp near $" or "call near $". We really did mean to type that.
03:09:51 <fjb> I guess you know what you are doing.
03:11:21 <DaleStan> Those instructions never get executed. The magic of self-modifying code.
03:12:08 <glx> they are just placeholders for something else :)
03:12:39 <DaleStan> We just need a five-byte placeholder where the first byte is E8 or E9, and those two instructions are the easiest way to generate that.
03:15:10 <fjb> Now I know why nfo looks so odd and has self modifying code. :-)
03:17:45 <DaleStan> I keep meaning to adjust the system so those instructions call or jmp to the "code" at address 0 (which will save space in the patching code) but I haven't done that yet.
03:22:01 <fjb> I guess you have more important things to do.
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07:29:24 <debian__> I'm trying to install openttd on an windows compter, it tells me sample.cat is missing or corrupted. Why?
07:29:55 <ln-> let me guess it's because your sample.cat is missing or corrupted.
07:30:43 <ln-> never ask if anyone is here, that's the most useless question possible.
07:30:56 <debian__> ln-: It is an fresh install, how can it allready be missing or corupted?
07:31:09 <debian__> ln-: The answer is usefull for me.
07:31:48 <debian__> Do I need something before I download the game=
07:31:55 <debian__> Installed on my computer?
07:32:54 <ln-> you need certain files from your Transport Tycoon Deluxe CD-ROM.
07:34:08 <ln-> i'm sure all this is documented somewhere.
07:34:19 <debian__> ln-: I thought it was free open source...
07:35:41 <debian__> So I need to pay for an cd to get the game?
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07:36:25 <ln-> either pay for one, or steal one.
07:38:01 <ln-> i bought the CD through amazon.co.uk.
07:38:42 <debian__> How big is the files I need?
07:39:09 <globester> the files are at orudge's site
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07:43:34 <globester> www.transporttycoon.net
07:44:36 <debian__> Is it also free open-source?
07:44:59 <Fujitsu> The data files can not legally be used without purchasing TTD.
07:45:06 <debian__> how can I help making the graphic files you need?
07:45:34 <debian__> I dont see a warning on the site...
07:47:18 <debian__> I want to make all the grapics for you, where to start?
07:48:08 <Fujitsu> There are a couple of graphics replacement projects. The 8bpp OpenGFX, and that for the new 32bpp graphics subsystem.
07:52:15 <debian__> How do I eat forest?
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09:16:49 <peter1138> So are we ready to make RC1 yet? ;)
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10:36:38 <Digitalfox> peter1138 how dare you say RC1 :0
10:40:40 <debian__> How do I make money?
10:40:55 <Digitalfox> beta 4 just released yesterday, give it time to bug reports ;)
10:41:47 <debian__> I'm using beta 4, I'm only loosing money...
10:42:03 <Yexo> are you sure you aren't using transfer?
10:42:03 * Digitalfox want's RC1 has soon has possible, i love that magic patch :0
10:42:08 <debian__> Where should I transport stuff?
10:42:30 <Yexo> transporting coal from a coal mine to a powerplant is a good start
10:42:44 <debian__> Where is my powerplant?
10:43:11 <Yexo> There are multiple on the map, use the minimap to find them
10:43:26 <debian__> It is no road/railroad to it
10:43:41 <Yexo> And you have to build the rail yourself ;)
10:43:46 <Yexo> that's kinda the purpose of the game
10:46:03 <debian__> So I only build roads?
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10:47:39 <Yexo> No, you can build rails too
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10:49:26 <debian__> So Now I have money?
10:50:24 <debian__> I'm still loosing a lot...
10:51:01 <Yexo> Can you post a savegame somewhere so I can have a look?
10:51:24 <debian__> Jay, I earned 1.986$
10:52:34 <debian__> Railroads is magically apperaring, why?
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10:52:59 <Yexo> Probably because you're playing with ai opponents which are building railroads
10:53:08 <Yexo> You can disable them in the patch settings
11:01:35 <debian__> Yexo: He wont try to steal my railroad area then?
11:03:13 <debian__> This game is only point is to build roads?
11:03:43 <Yexo_> The ai can't use your railroads
11:03:55 <Yexo_> What he can do however, is building in an area you planned to build
11:04:18 <Yexo_> About the point of this game: you can play it any way you like.
11:04:33 <Yexo_> Some people like to play with only road vehicles
11:04:52 <Yexo_> other people like to build massive rail networks with hundreds of trains
11:05:36 <debian__> The stupid train wont load cargo
11:05:53 <debian__> ït goes back and fort from oil and powerplant
11:06:25 <Noldo> oil doesn't goto the power plant
11:07:11 <Yexo_> click on the industry to see which cargo's it accepts
11:11:06 <debian__> The trainstation can store stuff?
11:11:32 <Yexo_> all cargo generated by industries is delivered to a nearby station
11:11:44 <Yexo_> but some is lost if you don't transport it in time
11:14:40 <debian__> But my coal trains is refuses to move...
11:16:00 <debian__> They are stuck in the garage
11:18:11 <Yexo_> Are your signals placed ok?
11:18:28 <Gekz> is it an electric garage on a diesel track
11:18:40 <Yexo_> There can only be one train at the same time within one signal block
11:19:00 <Yexo_> diesel depot with elektric rails isn't a problem :)
11:19:10 <debian__> How can I fix the signal block thing?
11:25:14 <debian__> Can I have doubble rails too?
11:25:35 <Yexo_> of course, just build two railroads next to eachother with oneway signals facing different directions
11:27:23 <Yexo_> that's not exactly simple to start with :)
11:31:23 <peter1138> What do L and R mean?
11:31:50 <Yexo_> LR is normal two way track
11:31:56 <debian__> Noo, I started new game, noww I've wasted all the money...
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11:32:03 <Yexo_> LLRR is four tracks, two going one way and two going the other way
11:32:29 <debian__> How many wagons can An train have?
11:32:42 <peter1138> Is L and R some standard system? Because to mean it means nothing.
11:32:51 <Yexo_> it's used in openttdcoop a lot
11:32:58 <peter1138> Yes, but I mean standard.
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11:37:34 <peter1138> So is LLRR RRLL: ↑↑↓↓ ↓↓↑↑ ?
11:38:00 <peter1138> So if you had a loop...
11:38:17 <peter1138> It would end up as ↓↓↑↑ ↑↑↓↓ on the other side...?
11:38:39 <Yexo_> L and R don't have any particluar direction
11:38:41 <peter1138> but that's not LLRR RRLL any more...
11:39:02 <demaker> is it best to have different kind of transport or is it best to stick to airplanes etc?
11:39:04 <Yexo_> it's only that every L-lane is going in the same direction, and opposite to any R-lane
11:39:25 <Yexo_> demaker: whatever makes you have the most fun of your game :)
11:40:05 <demaker> hehe okay.. i just love this game.. played it 10 years ago and startet yesterday hehe
11:40:20 <fjb> demaker: And the patches you are using. Try to start an airplane only game with the passenger destinations patch. :-)
11:42:02 <debian__> Can an coal mine become empty?
11:42:41 <debian__> How do I make an train turn in the railroad?
11:43:15 <Yexo_> but it normally won't if you provide good service
11:44:44 <fjb> There is a button on the right side of the vehicle window that lets the train reverse.
11:56:04 <demaker> fjb, what do you mean?
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12:00:44 <demaker> How do i upgrade busses etc?
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12:14:50 <Vikthor> demaker: Just send it in depot sell the bus and buy new one
12:31:19 * Hendikins hrms, idly wonders how long it would take him to build openttd on his build farm
12:33:15 <Hendikins> Need autofox to finish first.
12:33:19 <Hendikins> I can build Firefox in 14 mins
12:34:14 <peter1138> Takes my X2 5600+ 1 minute for a release build
12:34:19 <peter1138> 30 seconds for debug
12:35:11 <Yexo_> depends whether I compile on windows or linux :)
12:35:14 <Yexo_> linux is under 1 minute
12:35:21 <Yexo_> windows can take up to 5 minutes
12:36:57 <Hendikins> peter1138: My build farm is an X2 4800+, Turion X2 1.9GHz, Sempron 3000+ and dual Athlon MP 2600+
12:57:52 <fjb> Is there an option to preven trains from reversing in front of signals?
13:17:34 <mcbane> hmm george barly haning around here aye?
13:18:29 * fjb can't remember seeing him here.
13:19:28 <mcbane> cause its fuuny with his closing mechanism. most close as intended except oilwells forest sawmills and a few other industries.
13:22:09 <fjb> Not all industries are in the same stage of development. Beta 4 is the most advanced.
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13:23:44 <mcbane> i have no clue about the grf coding but it have to be defined for every single industry?
13:23:49 <debian__> But how can I make an lot of money?
13:24:19 <fjb> Yes, for every single industry.
13:24:34 <debian__> The stuff the oil raffinery makes, where should it go?
13:24:41 <fjb> debian__: Use the cheat menu. :-)
13:25:13 <fjb> debian__: Standard oil rafinery or an industry replacement grf?
13:25:15 <Noldo> debian__: some cities accept goods
13:25:25 <mcbane> debia_ if you use ECS potrol goes to gasstation and reafined stuff goes to chem industry
13:25:25 <debian__> The thing that comes in beta4
13:25:34 <Yexo> goods ahve to be transported to towns
13:25:37 <Gonozal_VIII> you get money for selling tracks, sell them all and you have more money
13:26:02 <Gonozal_VIII> (that's how politicians think)
13:26:33 <fjb> Some houses of towns are accepting good. They have to be in the station cachement area. Then that station accept goods.
13:29:09 <debian__> How many wagons can an train have?
13:29:35 <Sionide> but it gets slower the more they are
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13:30:20 <Gonozal_VIII> not with additional engines too
13:30:33 <debian__> Can I have two trains?
13:31:10 <Sionide> try it in the depot, build two then drag the second one to behind the first one
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13:35:41 <debian__> If I want an big network, like double lanes trains, how?
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13:37:42 <debian__> Does the cityes want food?
13:38:17 <Yexo> not when playing temperate
13:38:35 <Yexo> just build your network piece by piece and extend it further
13:46:30 <debian__> Will the game go for ever?
13:47:13 <Yexo> although you get your score in 2051 you can still play on after that date
14:10:34 <debian__> Some of my trains refuses to turn
14:10:49 <debian__> How to make double lanes, and can they change lanes?
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14:17:23 <Noldo> with some clever signaling
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14:34:37 <fjb> frosch123: I missed you yesterday evening.
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15:02:07 <DJ-Nekkid> debian__: with SML ?
15:07:38 <DJ-Nekkid> shift/switch main line
15:09:47 <peter1138> Even 'shift/switch main line' means nothing to me, so I doubt it can mean anything to a newbie...
15:09:51 <SmatZ> DJ-Nekkid: why is it a 2-way exit presignal?
15:10:15 <peter1138> SmatZ, because the openttdcoop people like to abuse signals for other purposes...
15:10:22 <DJ-Nekkid> SmatZ: because it wont work without :)
15:10:30 <SmatZ> when train reverses because it has to wait for a long time, it blocks the ML
15:11:08 <SmatZ> peter1138: I have to say I like it ;-) but sometimes, I don't understand that overuse
15:11:09 <DJ-Nekkid> the trains will only enter the 2nd ML if it's free, if it's a 1way it will go to the combo and stay until it's free...
15:12:14 <DJ-Nekkid> and peter1138; i were makeing the screenshot when u asked :)
15:12:30 <Yexo> DJ-Nekkid: are you sure you didn't make a few mistakes there?
15:12:57 <DJ-Nekkid> Yexo: not 100%, but i made aprox 100 of thoose last coop-game, and they worked
15:13:20 <SmatZ> well, I played that game for a while, and this was the place where it was blocked
15:13:50 <DJ-Nekkid> well, it is build according to mark's example...
15:14:35 <Yexo> the signal before exit 1way/combo 2way has to be a presignal
15:15:13 <Gonozal_VIII> no need for a penalty, it's longer anyways
15:15:49 <Gonozal_VIII> other version is better
15:16:00 <DJ-Nekkid> Gonozal_VIII: mine?
15:16:29 <Gonozal_VIII> but looks like it could work
15:16:37 <DJ-Nekkid> Yexo: if the 2nd ml is not free, and the exit is not free (because the trains are closely packed) it's like haveing a 3 tile signalblock
15:17:20 <Gonozal_VIII> longer signalblocks are very bad
15:17:23 <Yexo> yes, but if there are both not free then it *is* desired behaviour to wait for the first one to become free, isn't it?
15:18:18 <Gonozal_VIII> trains should never stop
15:18:27 <Gonozal_VIII> so presignal entry bad
15:18:34 <DJ-Nekkid> Gonozal_VIII: i agree...
15:18:42 <peter1138> And this is why I don't play openttdcoop. It's so tedious.
15:18:56 <DJ-Nekkid> peter1138: it's actually fun...
15:19:03 <DJ-Nekkid> last game lasted more then 300 years
15:19:26 <DJ-Nekkid> that's more then 70 hours
15:19:36 <DJ-Nekkid> if it were not close to 400
15:19:43 <fjb> But some people have more fun building pretty lines through beautiful landscapes.
15:20:25 <SmatZ> yeah, without terraforming :)
15:20:36 <Gonozal_VIII> i try to combine that :-) lines where trains never have to stop or slow down but that still look good
15:20:43 * SmatZ likes no-terraforming maps with 1000+ trains ;)
15:20:52 <SmatZ> and at least 1024x1024 map :-D
15:21:02 <fjb> Without isn't always possible, but with as few terraforming as possible.
15:21:48 <fjb> 1024x1024 map is nice in multiplayer, but I feel lost on it in a single player game.
15:22:21 <Yexo> I normally build them like this
15:22:47 <Yexo> not measured this time :)
15:23:02 <fjb> SmatZ: I looked at the makefiles fpr OpenTTD, but I don't know enough about automake etc. to make new makefiles for OpenTTD to compile it all at once.
15:24:18 <fjb> You need at least two options for gcc to make it work. And it may have sideeffects on varaible and function scope.
15:26:04 <peter1138> Why would you want to compile it all at once?
15:26:27 <fjb> To get an far more optimized executable.
15:27:10 <fjb> Optimisation is local to a single input file now. It would be global to the whole OpenTTD source then.
15:27:51 <Yexo> you can try cat *.h *.cpp > gcc :)
15:28:23 <SmatZ> you have to -I correct directories
15:29:11 <fjb> Or use some smarter make replacement.
15:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> | grep -v '#include "'
15:29:27 <Noldo> fjb: what on earth are you talking about?
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15:31:32 <fjb> Noldo: the current source is compiled one source file at a time. Optimisation is local to that file. gcc has a global optimizer option where the optimisation is global to the whole code base. But it has to be called with all source files as arguments at once.
15:37:53 <glx> Morloth: split it in many parts (it's way too big)
15:37:58 <Morloth> I'd like to develop NoAI furder but I don't want to create patches which depend upon patches; Things get messy :)
15:38:30 <glx> and I don't like your change for GetCargoProduction and GetCargoAcceptance
15:38:51 <glx> better add functions to just tell if it accepts or produces
15:39:07 <glx> and keep the GetCargo* as they are
15:39:08 <Morloth> glx: But the old methods didn't gave any sensable information
15:39:50 <glx> maybe for you, but some AI writer may want to know the exact amount
15:40:31 <Morloth> glx: Hmmz... Perhaps you're right, but I don't see the sense in the numbers it returned
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15:40:57 <glx> it is the numbers you can see when you use the query tile tool
15:41:55 <Morloth> But what does an acceptance of 24 mean as to an acceptance of 16 or 2?
15:42:08 <Morloth> Thought it was kinda dodgy, those functions
15:42:29 <Morloth> But I'll rewrite it one I get home tonight and create a new patch :)
15:43:24 <Morloth> Would be good to see NoAI back on track again
15:45:14 <glx> higher acceptance means your station has less chance to stop accepting stuff when the town decides to replace/remove buildings
15:45:57 <Morloth> But you'd recommend I create 2 separate patches? 1) Make methods static. 2) The added functions ?
15:46:53 <glx> it's always better to do small patches
15:47:13 <Morloth> I'll keep that in mind :)
15:47:29 <glx> or at least 1 patch for 1 change
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15:47:56 <Gonozal_VIII> yes because devs are lazy people and don't want to read more than 10 lines at once
15:48:22 <Morloth> glx: I kinda got over excited I guess and coded away at NoAI the last couple of days :)
15:48:34 <glx> Gonozal_VIII: not only, it's easier to understand 1 change than 10 when you read a diff
15:48:46 <Gonozal_VIII> i know, i know ;-)
15:51:52 <peter1138> That's okay, you're on ignore now
15:52:15 <NukeBuster> speaking of small patches..
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15:56:37 <NukeBuster> Do you have an opinion about it?
15:57:40 <SmatZ> I think it can be useful
15:57:44 * Belugas has seen it, but has no opinion, since not playing nor doing MP
15:58:55 <Gonozal_VIII> opinions are for people that can't make their own reality
15:59:25 <Morloth> I'm signing off, cya guys tonight!
15:59:33 <Gonozal_VIII> everything is the truth then
16:01:19 <Maedhros> and that makes you indifferent to everything? you don't like it, dislike it, anything?
16:04:59 <Gonozal_VIII> why would you dislike something you made yourself?
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16:05:10 <Gonozal_VIII> or like it... if you don't know different
16:09:13 <peter1138> Isn't there already a password on join thing?
16:09:38 <NukeBuster> not in trunk (as far as I know)
16:09:54 <peter1138> Ah, there's the default password thing
16:11:37 <NukeBuster> there was a discussion about that in the suggestions forum
16:12:24 <NukeBuster> This got into trunk quite recently, though it have two disadvantages - in game you don't see whether there is some password or not (you have to look into the config file to check for that)
16:12:24 <NukeBuster> Second, it is stored in plaintext in config file. If you do not realize that and send config file to someone (like with some bug report to the bugtracker) ... oops, your password just became public.
16:12:40 <NukeBuster> (that was posted by Bilbo)
16:15:00 <glx> NukeBuster: usually the .cfg is not needed for bug reports (as all important settings are in the .sav)
16:16:08 <glx> but we may ask for it, or at least some specific settings
16:16:31 <NukeBuster> is it possible to change the default password in game?
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16:30:31 <peter1138> Isn't that what the button does?
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16:41:50 <Gonozal_VIII> the opposite of down
16:42:51 <Gonozal_VIII> well, you asked :-)
16:44:36 <NukeBuster> Peter1138, that's indeed what the button does.
16:45:24 <NukeBuster> I just like the fact it would pop up if you don't have it set.
16:46:02 <peter1138> Well, add it then ;)
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16:47:07 <NukeBuster> Well that's the patch :)
16:48:03 <NukeBuster> if you create a new company and no default password set then: ShowNetworkCompanyPasswordWindow();
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17:20:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> O no... he figured us out...
17:20:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> they're called 'Landau Symbols' btw.
17:21:03 * LordAzamath is going to say hello in a moment, be ready!
17:21:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> you, sir, are massive failure in person ;)
17:22:47 <LordAzamath> but atleast I've got beta-4 downloading atm..
17:23:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm stuck with 12066 for a while, because i can't be bothered with savegame compatibility
17:24:18 <Sacro> LordAzamath: you failed that quite amusingly
17:25:07 <LordAzamath> had to ask help because my keyboard.... well let's say I don't feel comfortable with it :P
17:25:58 * LordAzamath is listening the Queen cassete "A kind of magic" ^^
17:26:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> michi_cc: have you considered a feature of 'real' PBS? in order to reserve a path, every switch leading to this path from 'outside' must be secured, otherwise no path can be locked (= speed limit 40km/h), this prevents crashing trains from the side ('Flankenfahrt')
17:27:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> 'secured' means either the next switch is in a position not leading to this path, or a derailment device is installed
17:28:51 <Gonozal_VIII> the switches don't switch...
17:29:13 <LordAzamath> pain is so close to pleasure.. But that's completely unrealted to current topic ^^
17:29:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, but a train without reserved path cannot take that switch even if it wants to
17:29:45 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: catch point?
17:30:24 <LordAzamath> tt-forums has another spammer..
17:30:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> Sacro: you can e.g. safely force a train through a signal without path
17:30:25 <Sacro> but i fear that'd be hard to implement
17:30:43 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: actually, IRL it is up to the signalman to make sure all points are locked
17:30:52 <LordAzamath> I tried to report post, but it was already reported :D
17:31:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> Sacro: german signal control stations have devices that ensure these lockings, otherwise the signal cannot be turned green
17:31:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> signals have an 'override' for that, but it's not a green light, but a white light
17:31:52 <peter1138> How does this relate to PBS?
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17:33:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> like i said, it provides more safety in case someone is messing around...
17:34:10 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: yes, but a signalman can give permission for a train to pass a red
17:34:20 <Sacro> otherwise how would you get passed a TCF
17:35:03 <Sacro> short circuit between the lines, hopefully makes all signals show red
17:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, that is like the 'ignore signal' switch in the game
17:36:58 <peter1138> You should manually ensure it's safe if you're going to fiddle with that...
17:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> not 'so'... i was just throwing this into the discussion
17:37:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> but it's going the wrong way ;)
17:38:26 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: yes, same concept
17:38:34 <Sacro> you have to make sure the way is clear
17:38:47 <Sacro> the ability to lock stes of points in a certain drection would be nice
17:38:59 <Sacro> as would having choseable crossover/single slip/double slip
17:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> anyway, in all these special cases which circumvent a locked path, speed limit is 40km/h
17:40:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> and sometimes, they tell the train driver to "drive on sight" [e.g. he has to stop behind a train already waiting in the next block]
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17:41:26 <peter1138> Sacro needs his realistic track simulation :o
17:41:47 <peter1138> Didn't locomotion show switch states visually?
17:42:14 <peter1138> More pixels to show it in, of course.
17:42:40 <Morloth> glx: Sorry to bother you again, but I'm still not sure how to submit a patch which changes almost all methods in NoAI static. Should I create a patch which applies to all files or do you want a different patch per file?
17:43:22 <glx> if you can do it in steps it's better
17:46:01 <LordAzamath> how could I force compiling of specific revision?
17:46:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r12186 /trunk/src/sound.cpp: -Fix [FS#1784](r12169): assert when trying to play tile sound at NW border of map (placing buyos, leveling land)
17:46:41 <Sacro> peter1138: yes, i do want it to be more real
17:46:57 <Sacro> though i would prefer it if i could make sure a train cannot switch lines on a crossover
17:47:02 <Sacro> until we get digonal bridges
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17:48:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> LordAzamath: svn up -rXXXX
17:48:35 <LordAzamath> agh.. what's revision for beta4 then?
17:48:41 <LordAzamath> I downloaded source this time
17:48:44 <Sacro> LordAzamath: /tags/0.6.0-beta4
17:49:03 <LordAzamath> so svn co .../tags/0.6.0-beta4 ?
17:49:11 <LordAzamath> or can I up it too?
17:49:41 <glx> you can also export if you don't plan to modify it
17:49:43 <LordAzamath> I would've thought it's svn...
17:50:06 <LordAzamath> glx, I originally asked for that.. exporting in that case
17:50:15 <LordAzamath> I didn't know how to call it :D
17:50:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> LordAzamath: if you have source without svn, there is a ./configure option for the revision string
17:50:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> ./configure --help
17:51:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> also, you can svn switch if you have a trunk checkout
17:52:08 <LordAzamath> one question, why don't releases read the external location for data files? I now have to move manually all trg*r grfs.. :(
17:52:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> you can also configure the paths it searches in
17:52:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r12187 /trunk/ (readme.txt src/misc_gui.cpp): -Add: frosch as dev. Last, but not least
17:52:53 <Sacro> cos i have /usr/share/openttd{,-svn}
17:53:14 <glx> and by default it tries install and home without specifying it in configure
17:53:28 <LordAzamath> I'll stay at compiling nightlys :D, easier..
17:53:34 <debian__> Can it jump from station to station?
17:55:47 <Sacro> dih_: bounce bounce bounce
17:57:01 <Sacro> Limitation disturbs me very sprites. Goes it throw out limitation?
17:58:24 <dih_> Sacro: those are isp issues
17:59:44 <Sacro> but my bouncer seems stable enough
17:59:51 <Sacro> ssh + screen + irssi ftw
18:00:21 * UFO64 makes note to speak out words before he asks what they mean
18:06:03 <Morloth> Does somebody know how I can apply a couple of patches at once? I want to try something like: 'patch -p0 < `cat patches/*`' << But this construction doesn't work...
18:07:21 <glx> cat patches/* | patch -p0
18:07:40 <Belugas> hello mister conflict, though...
18:13:43 <debian__> What I meant was, can I move it from one track to another if tey are connected to the same station?
18:14:43 <Yexo> debian__, what do you want to move?
18:16:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> so much for IRC being a real time communication system ;)
18:21:11 <glx> Morloth: why opening a new task?
18:21:20 <Morloth> lol, that was fast :)
18:21:57 <Morloth> glx: Well I figured the old one was kind of depricated ?
18:22:26 <glx> you can add comments and attach new files
18:22:40 <glx> and the purpose of the patch didn't change
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18:24:07 <Morloth> glx: you're right, my bad
18:24:54 <debian__> Can I get intrest for having money?
18:25:40 <Yexo> debian__, you don't get interest.
18:26:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> nobody gets interest from having money
18:26:29 <Yexo> and you can't move (in the sense of teleport) trains within a station
18:26:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> interest comes from investing money
18:28:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> i miss using Alt+←↓→↑ for moving the mouse :(
18:28:14 <debian__> Eddi|zuHause2: I get instres in my bank
18:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> debian__: yes, because you lend your money to the bank, not because you have the money
18:29:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> that is the easiest form of investment
18:29:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> also gives the least interest
18:29:09 <debian__> How much money should I have in 1980?
18:29:22 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause2: But that involves two keys, whereas <wiggles mouse> means your fingers don't leave the home row
18:29:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> i have 4.000.000.000 DM
18:30:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> Prof_Frink: occasionally, i get tired of holding the mouse
18:30:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's a little too small for my paws...
18:30:41 <Prof_Frink> Well, I'd have to move my fingers from the home row to use the mouse
18:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> these two statements seem opposite to me... or i am missing your point...
18:33:00 <Prof_Frink> I can haz ThinkPad
18:33:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> oh that explains a bit ;)
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18:33:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> i hate touchpads... they always go off without me wanting to...
18:33:41 <Tefad> some laptops have a touchpad silence button
18:33:51 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause2: Again, ThinkPad.
18:33:54 <debian__> My oil thing dissapeared... Why?
18:35:32 <debian__> Now most of my inncome dissapeared
18:35:53 <Gonozal_VIII> you have to adapt
18:35:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> around 1980, all oil wells close down, and instead oil platforms appear
18:36:28 <Tefad> unless you have no water large enough, eh?
18:36:30 <debian__> But I donno how to build ships
18:37:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> look at the top of your screen, you have icons for railway track, road, waterways and airports
18:37:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> each stands for one transport type
18:37:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> use waterways for building ships and canals
18:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> you can hold the right mouse button, then it explains what this icon does
18:39:12 <debian__> But I donno how to build ships
18:39:40 <Prof_Frink> debian__: Much like trains or RVs.
18:39:40 <Gonozal_VIII> same way as other vehicles :P
18:39:50 <Prof_Frink> Build a depot, then click on it.
18:42:31 <debian__> I have only built trains
18:45:37 <Prof_Frink> You don't need to add wagons to ships
18:46:24 <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm there are ships that consist of linked parts in rl
18:46:52 <Tefad> but you do have buoys, like waypoints
18:49:39 <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: That would hardly work in TTD, ships have no size.
18:54:35 <debian__> How can I make an railroad one wa`y?
18:55:20 <SmatZ> everything has 'no size', only collision distances :)
18:55:40 <fjb> Ships don't even have that. :-P
18:58:57 <debian__> I dont understand that...
18:59:35 <fjb> Try it out. It is just a game.
18:59:46 <debian__> What if I crash an train?
19:00:44 <fjb> Then you have to buy a bew one.
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19:08:03 <debian__> How can I get billions without doing nothing?
19:08:17 <Prof_Frink> By doing lots of things.
19:11:08 <debian__> peter1138: Listening...
19:11:23 <peter1138> Well that's all I was going to say...
19:12:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, you'll have to find that button on your own i presume ;)
19:13:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... i take suggestions for beautification of this station... www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%202.%20Mai%201985.png
19:15:02 <peter1138> What's that middle track doing there?
19:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, that's an old track for reversing trains
19:15:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> commonly known as "Spitzkehre"
19:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's not used anymore since the opening of the western goods tracks
19:16:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> i leave it there for hysterical raisins
19:17:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> trains would come from the northwest, turn around, and leave to the southwest
19:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> it reached the limits of capacity very quickly, though ;)
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19:28:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> fjb: which grf is that?
19:29:13 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
19:29:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> fjb: and why are your buffers not electrified?
19:30:04 <fjb> Don't know why they are not.
19:30:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> fjb: and how do you get a BR 75 to carry 500t coal?
19:30:24 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause2: flat land.
19:32:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> "- PBS sensitive tiles: some tiles react when they detect a train entering the track. The "train shed" facility opens its doors, for example." <- does that work in OpenTTD?
19:33:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> i mean with the patch ;)
19:33:55 <Bjarni> btw we are really late regarding PBS
19:34:22 <Bjarni> I found an old plan this weekend and it claimed PBS to be finished sometime in May 2006
19:34:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, we had PBS two years ago, but someone had to rip it out ;)
19:34:36 <Bjarni> so even if it's finished right away it's almost 2 years late :P
19:35:11 <Bjarni> according to the plan it's YAPF based PBS without the issues we had back then
19:35:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, then blame KUDr ;)
19:37:35 <Bjarni> that's not what I meant
19:37:52 <Bjarni> the idea is good enough
19:38:45 <Bjarni> the first implementation just told us how it could be done and the limitations it had so starting over with a new design to avoid those limitations is a good thing
19:39:00 <Bjarni> but it's always a help to know how NOT to do it ;)
19:39:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> limitation disturbs me very signal ;)
19:40:31 <Gonozal_VIII> hehe who wrote that?
19:40:54 <Gonozal_VIII> no i read that in the forum some time ago
19:41:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah. i know... but i forgot who it was
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19:57:06 <DJ-Nekkid> im makeing a grf, and i want the elrails to be more/higher priced then non-electrified ones ... how? ;)
19:57:09 <SpComb> tcp6 0 0 2002:5282:1012:123:3979 :::* LISTEN 18955/openttd
19:57:12 <SpComb> tcp6 0 11 2002:5282:1012:123:3979 2002:5282:1012:12:45794 ESTABLISHED18955/openttd
19:57:15 <SpComb> tcp6 11 0 2002:5282:1012:12:45794 2002:5282:1012:123:3979 ESTABLISHED19754/openttd
19:57:45 <SpComb> I'm running an IPv6 openttd server on qmsk.ipv6.myottd.net, feel free to join :)
19:58:11 <yorick> is that even possible?
19:58:58 <Morloth> SpComb: Isn't that working because of a IP6 -> IP4 tunnel? :)
19:59:10 <SpComb> no, I added in IPv6 support to the code
19:59:21 <SpComb> still needs a bit of tweaking though, doesn't work via e.g. the ingame gui, but it does via -n
20:00:15 <peter1138> The server list protocol doesn't support that, of course...
20:00:43 <SpComb> nope, needs a fair amount of work
20:01:25 <SpComb> that's next, first I need to eat...
20:03:25 *** UnderBuilder has joined #openttd
20:05:43 <SpComb> Client #2 name: 'Player' status: 'active' frame-lag: 1 company: 1 IP: 2002:5282:1012:1234:250:8dff:fed5:c0b9 unique-id: '28e6e7edefe5bd5fa1bb6a6c44bb4cc7'
20:06:03 * SpComb wonders how many things that will break
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21:05:05 <DJ-Nekkid> doesnt the prop 0E for trains action0 work as it (might) do in ttdp?
21:05:54 <DJ-Nekkid> 0D \b255 0E 9A 4B 00 00 <-- points at aircraft puch cost
21:07:00 <DaleStan> It works as long as you specify one of the three documented pointers. Pick another value and all bets are off. Never mind that the documentation says you can point to other base costs too.
21:07:49 <DJ-Nekkid> so only steam/diesel/electrics?
21:08:27 <peter1138> Yes, only those work in OpenTTD.
21:08:51 <DJ-Nekkid> gotta figure out something else then...
21:09:25 <DJ-Nekkid> there is something about the general action 0, prop 08 ...
21:09:38 <DJ-Nekkid> but thoose seem to effect all costs?
21:10:19 <peter1138> Yes, that's what base costs are.
21:10:40 <DJ-Nekkid> but if i use that prop08 it will change all base costs?
21:12:46 <DJ-Nekkid> -1 * 0 00 08 01 01 2A 08 <factor> should change the 2A (steam running cost) by some kind of factor?
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21:23:31 <SpComb> yay, now I get to replace every call to inet_ntoa etc. with something proper
21:30:31 <debian__> Can openttd utilize dual-core cpus?
21:30:56 <Gonozal_VIII> no dual core, no gpu
21:34:08 <debian__> So I can run it without 3d acceleration?
21:34:30 <peter1138> No 3D acceleration is involved...
21:34:32 <Gonozal_VIII> does it look 3d?^^
21:35:38 <DJ-Nekkid> peter1138: im not sure if it's a bug ... or if it should be filed as one but: if i add running costs to a wagon via newgrf, it dont show up in the buy menu...
21:37:01 <Gonozal_VIII> wagons have running cost?
21:37:16 <DJ-Nekkid> not usually perhaps, but they should...
21:37:24 <DJ-Nekkid> and it's possible to add it
21:37:52 <DaleStan> debian__: Debian unstable, I believe you can.
21:38:16 <debian__> DaleStan: I have super stable...
21:38:25 <debian__> DaleStan: Can I still have it?
21:38:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> why would you do that?
21:39:09 <DaleStan> debian__: Yes. "$ ./configure && make"
21:39:24 <debian__> DaleStan: Compiling?
21:39:45 <DaleStan> Or you can download the package.
21:39:50 <peter1138> DJ-Nekkid, OpenTTD does not support running costs for wagons.
21:40:06 <DJ-Nekkid> peter1138: it support it, it just dont show in the menu
21:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, mountain routes would be so much easier if i had diagonal slopes, stations and tunnels/bridges
21:41:03 <debian__> OpenTTD doesnt use 3d accelleration?
21:41:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> nothing is 3D about openttd
21:41:21 <Prof_Frink> no, openttd still does not use 3d acceleration
21:41:30 <Gonozal_VIII> change the map to 6 sided tiles :-)
21:41:31 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause2, lots is 3D...
21:41:38 <debian__> Does it run on 600mhz duron?
21:41:52 <Gonozal_VIII> it runs on cell phones
21:41:54 <debian__> peter1138: Now I'm relly confused...
21:41:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> TT original ran on 25MHz
21:42:02 <debian__> Gonozal_VIII: Where to download?
21:42:20 <peter1138> Where to download what?
21:42:47 <debian__> peter1138: openttd for my cellularphone!
21:43:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: the advanced daylength patch, does that reduce town growth?
21:44:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> do you accept feature requests? :p
21:45:00 <Gonozal_VIII> i accept features in patch form^^
21:45:24 <debian__> But it needs symbian...
21:45:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> that is easy ;)
21:46:48 <debian__> Eddi|zuHause2: Can I install symbian on an java phone?
21:47:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> debian__: i was not replying to you
21:47:30 <Gonozal_VIII> port it to java ;-)
21:47:45 <debian__> Gonozal_VIII: Port openttd or symbian for java?
21:48:08 <Gonozal_VIII> wouldn't make sense to run an os in java^^
21:48:18 <debian__> Gonozal_VIII: Could be done
21:49:21 <debian__> So then I have to learn java and c++. Is it difficult to open-source games?
21:50:18 <Gonozal_VIII> java and c++ have a lot in common
21:50:33 <Gonozal_VIII> but the data type stuff is completely different
21:50:45 <debian__> But if I find an game, is it hard to opensource it?
21:50:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't think that attempt will lead anywhere :p
21:51:02 <DJ-Nekkid> debian__: reverse engeneering
21:51:56 <debian__> DJ-Nekkid: How long?
21:52:10 <ln-> for you, approximately 75 years and 3 months.
21:53:09 <debian__> But open tdd only took a few years?
21:54:32 <DJ-Nekkid> it started in 2001 or something i think
21:55:09 <Gonozal_VIII> and it will be finished in the year 3001 or something^^
21:55:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: in town_cmd.cpp, there is a function "void OnTick_Town()", add there a line like "if (_tick_counter % _patches.daylength != 0) return;"
21:56:23 <ln-> has anyone tried compiling C code for the JVM?
21:56:48 <ln-> after appropriate conversion.
21:56:57 <Belugas> debian__, your question about the lenght of a conversion project is related to the size of the original binary
21:57:09 <Belugas> and of course, your skill levell
21:57:14 <Gonozal_VIII> isn't there other stuff that happens based on ticks too?
21:57:24 <ln-> Belugas: and if one has to ask, the skill level is zero.
21:57:57 <Belugas> not to me to judge ;)
21:58:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: i see only calls to GrowTown(.) and UpdateTownRadius(.)
21:58:29 <debian__> But is every game beeing open-sourced?
21:59:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: you can also go one level higher in landscape.cpp, then you can also affect tree growth and stuff
22:00:04 <Gonozal_VIII> ic ic... if (_patches.daylength_towngrowth && _tick_counter % _patches.daylength != 0) return;
22:01:27 <Gonozal_VIII> but i'm busy watching anime^^
22:01:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> i've ran out of doctor who episodes...
22:02:04 <Gonozal_VIII> but i only watched the three new seasons
22:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm not through, the rest is just not finished
22:02:35 <glx> <Gonozal_VIII> but i'm busy watching anime^^ <-- which one?
22:02:38 <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm sarah connor thingy should be tere too
22:03:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's in the queue right after skins ;)
22:03:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> but knight rider is not finished yet
22:03:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's taking forever
22:03:56 <Gonozal_VIII> it's called ah (or oh) my goddess, a friend gave me a link to it earlier today
22:04:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't usually watch anime...
22:04:33 <glx> I saw both seasons and the 20th anniversary episodes
22:05:43 <Gonozal_VIII> but watching japanese with english subs is suboptimal... can't watch and read well at the same time
22:06:03 <glx> I have it with french subtitles :)
22:06:17 <Gonozal_VIII> yes, he gave me that link first^^
22:07:16 <Gonozal_VIII> i found some episodes of the first season in german and/or english dub
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22:08:22 <Gonozal_VIII> but that was on youtube... low quality and split up in 3-4 parts per episode
22:08:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> german dub of animes is often cut
22:08:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> because they are usually shown in daytime program
22:09:11 <Gonozal_VIII> no blood or nakedness there anyways...
22:10:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> also often, "strong language" is reduced in the dub
22:11:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> i already fear what they are going to do to the poor dexter...
22:12:10 <ln-> i'm assuming you are not talking about Darkly Dreaming Dexter?
22:13:30 <ln-> the crime scene investigator?
22:14:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> one of the greatest series of all times ;)
22:14:51 <ln-> but not much strong language, as far as i remember.
22:15:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> ever listened to Deb talking?
22:15:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> like every second word out of her mouth is "fuck"
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22:15:50 <ln-> maybe i just ignore most of what women say? :)
22:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> like that one conversation she has: [witty comment from someone] "Fuck you!" [another witty comment] "Fuck you twice"
22:19:55 <SpComb> hmm... does does OpenTTD's build system work? I'm getting linker errors because I'm trying to use two functions from network/network.cpp in network/network_udp.cpp
22:20:31 <ln-> the current build system is crap.
22:20:45 <glx> it's better than it used to be
22:21:18 <SmatZ> ln-: come with something new and better, and it may be implemented
22:21:43 <peter1138> You're entitled to your opinion, even if it is wrong...
22:22:00 <SpComb> nevermind, some issues with argument const-ness
22:22:44 <ln-> Eddi|zuHause2: the author often uses three-D combinations such as "Darkly Dreaming Dexter", "Dearly Devoted Deborah", ... some work for german translators.
22:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln-: this kind of thought usually gets totally translated away...
22:23:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> like when in Charmed, all episode titles are references to movies or common phrases... nothing left in the translation, except in some rare incidences...
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22:25:12 <ln-> the first ~110 pages of the novel are exactly as in the tv series, but then things start going different.
22:25:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> you can't stick to the books forever...
22:27:37 <ln-> the Da Vinci Code movie was good at it.
22:27:50 <ln-> though the book was written like a movie script.
22:29:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> pretty much all movies that i know books for divert quite a bit
22:30:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> but i read about as many books as i watch anime ;)
22:31:48 <UnderBuilder> I don't understand why the dedicated server requires the TTD files
22:31:58 <UnderBuilder> it doesn't use it
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22:33:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> in the past, some game mechanics depended on sprite sizes and stuff
22:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> what you can try is replace all sprites with empty ones
22:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> passenger wagons are too short :(
22:42:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, they'd look much better if they were 50% longer
22:43:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> i have 10 tile cargo trains, but 10 tile passenger trains look ugly
22:43:47 <Gonozal_VIII> longer wagons would look weird in curves
22:43:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> with 50% longer wagons, 12 wagons would be 9 tiles, plus engine
22:44:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> that is a different issue ;)
22:45:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> but fact is, the passenger wagons are artificially shortened
22:54:48 <SpComb> it's at the point that it "works" now
22:55:25 <ln-> IPv4 ought to be enough for anyone
22:57:04 <SpComb> no working broadcast either
22:57:28 <Gonozal_VIII> memory and ips are not really the same
22:58:02 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause2, ah... and I always remember the people waiting for 32bpp who thought that would solve every problem...
22:58:08 <Gonozal_VIII> current ips could still be enough for lots of years if they were used differently
22:58:18 <SpComb> but eventually, they will run out
22:58:32 <SpComb> you might be able to delay it until, oh, 2020, but it's still going to happen
22:58:38 <Prof_Frink> Eventually, the sun will run out of hydrogen
22:58:52 <glx> mainly because 1 country reserved more than 50%
22:58:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> or the earth run out of oil...
22:58:55 <Prof_Frink> SpComb: You only need to delay it until 2038
22:59:04 <Prof_Frink> The the unixverse ends.
22:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> the real y2k ;(
23:00:15 <Gonozal_VIII> what will they do then? extend to 64 bit?
23:00:52 <peter1138> Just change the epoch ;)
23:01:08 <ln-> there must be a lot of unused IPv4 addresses... i've been told that a lot of small companies in finland who need maybe ~8 static IPs have been given the whole 65k block of IPs.
23:01:13 <SpComb> time_t is already 64 bits these days, isn't it?
23:01:33 <ln-> SpComb: on what platform?
23:01:46 <Fujitsu> SpComb: There are issues with compatibility with file formats, so it's 32-bit.
23:02:00 <SpComb> so time64_t or somesuch?
23:02:02 <Fujitsu> If time_ts weren't in lots of file formats, it'd be easy to change.
23:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> SpComb: actually, making it unsigned would give them another 70 years
23:02:44 <Gonozal_VIII> it's signed? why that?
23:02:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> because someone thought that was funny ;)
23:02:59 <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: the negative time for the past.
23:03:13 <ln-> time_t can express dates from ~1901 .. 2038
23:04:51 <Prof_Frink> alan@frinkserv:~$ date --date="Jan 01 2039" --> date: invalid date `Jan 01 2039'
23:04:54 <Prof_Frink> alan@frinkpad:~$ date --date="Jan 01 2039" --> Sat Jan 1 00:00:00 GMT 2039
23:05:23 <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: dunno, but it's for example a valid range for expressing anyone's birthday on this channel.
23:06:01 <ln-> it's also a valid range for expressing any employee's birthdate in any company.
23:09:26 <ln-> which was true even in 1970.
23:11:06 <ln-> remains to be seen if time_t is used in 2038 anymore.
23:18:26 <ln-> sie wissen wir haben kein elefant.
23:21:24 <Gonozal_VIII> what a strange thing to say
23:25:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> wah, my E94 are getting old...
23:27:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> when's the next livery due? 1987?
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23:28:33 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause2: What color do they have?
23:28:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> the green ones are younger
23:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> the grey ones are mainly on the woods route, the green ones on the coal route
23:29:33 <fjb> That is usual. Why do you think they are odd?
23:30:06 <fjb> I think I need new glasses.
23:30:45 <fjb> Next livery will be cream blue, mid 70s to late 80s.
23:31:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm already 1985
23:31:44 <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: you have an elephant?
23:31:52 <fjb> Not all got repainted. E94 looked much better in green livery anyway.
23:33:15 <Gonozal_VIII> you wrote "you/they know we have no elephant"
23:33:36 <ln-> yes, that's exactly what i wrote.
23:33:53 <Gonozal_VIII> but it should be keinen not kein
23:33:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's "keinen" though
23:34:18 <Gonozal_VIII> and it doesn't make any sense
23:34:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> and "Elefanten"
23:34:46 <ln-> it's supposed to be singular.
23:34:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> though most germans probably wouldn't recognise this error either
23:35:12 <Gonozal_VIII> is that mandatory?
23:35:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, but it's Akkusativ ;)
23:36:20 <Gonozal_VIII> that doesn't matter, it's plural
23:36:38 <Gonozal_VIII> normal akkusativ singular would be elefant
23:36:42 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause2: Most germans won't recognise it? It sounds horribly wrong. But maybe you are right...
23:37:21 <Gonozal_VIII> that plural thing is some other rule
23:37:27 <fjb> "keinen Elefanten" is singular. "keine Elefanten" is plural.
23:38:26 <Gonozal_VIII> the word elefanten is plural of elefant
23:38:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> you are generalising too much
23:38:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> "mit dem Elefanten/ohne den Elefanten", both singular
23:39:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> google is about 50/50 on that...
23:39:24 <Gonozal_VIII> yes but why is it in plural form?
23:39:35 <Eddi|zuHause2> it is not plural form
23:39:57 <Gonozal_VIII> elefant is singular :P
23:40:05 <SmatZ> do people in Austria so different than people in Germany?
23:40:25 <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: You are Austrian, you don't understand that. That is german.
23:40:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> SmatZ: the grammar shouldn't differ that much, but the pronounciation is evil ;)
23:40:54 <fjb> SmatZ: That is because we didn't allow them to be germans.
23:41:09 <Gonozal_VIII> host wos gegn mei aussproch? :O
23:41:11 <ln-> Eddi|zuHause2: pronunciation
23:41:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln-: that looks horrible...
23:41:50 <ln-> Eddi|zuHause2: yeah, don't blame me for the spelling, but that's how it's spelled.
23:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: nix effektives
23:46:49 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
23:47:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's bad that you cannot repaint engines
23:48:20 <ln-> the lines/minute has gone too low, attempting recover.
23:48:28 <ln-> drer hat nie ein autovermietungsfirma.
23:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> "nie" always with past or future, doesn't make sense with present
23:49:30 <fjb> eine Autovermietungsfirma.
23:49:37 <Sacro> mein hatte es hatta drei corners...
23:50:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> Sacro: almost ;)
23:50:26 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause2: What color do you want your trains?
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23:51:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> fjb: nothing specific right now, but you can't repaint e.g. the grey engines green, or the green engines blue (in case you actually had an E18)
23:51:57 <fjb> E18 would alsways be kind of blue, never green.
23:52:00 <ln-> has anyone else watched the Monty Python special that was made in german?
23:52:30 <fjb> ln-: They don't show that in Germany, the Monty Python people don't allow that.
23:54:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, i actually don't know what colour the E18 originally had
23:54:31 <fjb> One of the most colorful locomotives was the E41. Blue, green, cream blue, read, another kind of red.
23:54:47 <ln-> fjb: i though it was made for the german audience.
23:54:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> "Die Museumslok E 18 08 im grünen Lieferanstrich"
23:56:05 <fjb> E18 was blue from the beginning because it's top speed was above 120km/h.
23:56:59 <fjb> ln-: No, it was for english audience. The hat fun speaking a strange kind of german.
23:57:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> fjb: i thought that was the new livery scheme in the 1950's
23:58:08 <Gonozal_VIII> there are some german words in the funniest joke ever
23:58:28 <fjb> Hm, maybe, but I thought that scheme is older.
23:58:59 <fjb> They also did a german version of the lumberjack song.
23:59:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> "Über die Lieferfarbe der E 18 wurde schon öfters spekuliert. Der Regelanstrich zu dieser Zeit sah einen blaugrauen Lokkasten vor. Allerdings gibt es Hinweise, dass zumindest einige E 18er mit einem dunkel-grün-grauen Lokkasten (wie die E 18 08 heute) geliefert sein sollen."
23:59:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> fjb: that's the link ln- gave
23:59:59 <fjb> Maybe it was invented at the same time as the blue color scheme for high speed engines.
continue to next day ⏵
