IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-11-19
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00:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> in the early 90s i played monkey island
00:00:58 <Gonozal_VIII> scorched earth :-)
00:01:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, those two i played, too
00:01:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> the first game i remember was sokoban
00:02:25 <oh> what's that game where you travel around some island and solve puzzles?
00:02:26 <Tefad> i remember oregon trail and number munchers
00:02:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> oh: that's monkey island
00:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> actually, several games play on islands
00:03:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> like i once played kings quest II
00:03:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> but i never got through
00:03:36 <oh> I don't think monkey island is what I used to play though :/
00:03:50 <Tefad> it's like qix but with a fixed grid
00:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, you have to come up with a more specific description than "island and puzzles" :p
00:04:14 <oh> damn, I cant go to bed till I've got the name ;<
00:04:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> because that fits like 90% of games of that genre
00:04:34 <oh> my early 90's memories arent that solid ;P
00:08:15 <SmatZ> yes, Dr.Brain, nice game
00:08:26 <Sacro> <oh> there it is! <-- haha, just what i thought
00:08:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't think i know that one
00:14:25 <Sacro> shall i purchase a Dec MicroVax
00:15:03 <oh> found a download for dr. brain
00:16:17 <fjb> Telling in public that you are violating some copyright is really intelligent...
00:16:43 <Sacro> fjb: cough... channelname?
00:17:36 <Gonozal_VIII> what does the channelname have to do with the copyright of some old game?
00:17:50 <Sacro> are you being sarcastic?
00:18:16 <exe> everyone uses pirated ttd?
00:18:31 * fjb has an offical ttd licence.
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00:23:25 <fjb> New or used? You can get one cheap on eBay, if you are lucky.
00:23:39 <Gonozal_VIII> but i wonder why nobody replaces the missing parts to make openttd a fully free game
00:24:06 <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: because it would be one hell of a job even for a talented artist.
00:24:17 <Gonozal_VIII> is it that much?
00:24:49 <ln-> oh: there's no such thing as abandonware.
00:24:53 <Gonozal_VIII> abandonware doesn't mean anything for copyright
00:24:54 <oh> and in any case not criminalized here
00:25:06 <fjb> There is no such think as abandomware.
00:25:57 <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: do you know how many sprites do the original data files contain?
00:27:13 <oh> isn't that what newgfx is for anyway?
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00:27:53 <Gonozal_VIII> that's a lot... but most of them should be easy to draw or have only small differences to other sprites
00:27:59 <Belugas> or exactly 4791 for the main file
00:28:39 <Belugas> [19:29] <oh> isn't that what newgfx is for anyway? <--- that's newgrf, and no, the purpose of newgrf is not to replace original grf, but to add some more
00:31:20 <oh> Belugas: sure, but isn't the plan to have the newgfx project's 32bpp art replace the old, copyrighted stuff?
00:31:37 <SmatZ> ever tried compiling openttd with gcc-4.3.0 preview? it will need some -Wno-xxx changes, or a lot of code changes :-x
00:32:56 <SmatZ> hmm well, it is not that bad :)
00:35:02 <oh> @sprite 3907, haven't seen that in ages :)
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00:36:15 <ln-> the file goes away in 20 seconds
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00:39:27 <Gonozal_VIII> for most of those sprites there are very good looking newgrf that replace them
00:40:03 <fjb> Now I know why nobody is playing Toyland...
00:40:17 <Bjarni> I just read the greatest thing about daylight saving hour ever
00:40:25 <Bjarni> Japan has it... in two cities only
00:40:37 <Bjarni> makes you wonder about travelling between cities
00:42:11 <fjb> Just travel only between that two cities.
00:42:26 <geoff_k_> its supposed to save daylight i believe but it always gets dark quicker, if not already by time i get out of bed
00:42:56 <geoff_k_> not sure the sun comes up here anyway lately
00:43:08 <geoff_k_> been almost dark at midday a few times
00:43:38 <Gonozal_VIII> it doesn't work for a normal day only for those weird people that wake up in the middle of the night
00:44:29 <geoff_k_> i tihnk its just done here to see who pays attention its a trick
00:44:43 <Belugas> oh, eventually, yes. but i tough you were confusing newgrf with newgfx, sorry
00:46:28 <geoff_k_> i went shop hour early a few weeks back not because i forgot the clocks had changed but because i looked at time on my mobile which had the wrong time still :)
00:46:53 <Tefad> phone didn't know the timezone laws?
00:47:20 <geoff_k_> mine don;t seem to but then i never bother with it, spents most its time with a flat battery its more peaceful that way
00:47:57 <Tefad> my phone syncs to something close to the official US time
00:49:00 <Gonozal_VIII> mine syncs to a time when phones didn't sync themselves
00:52:05 <geoff_k_> the one thing i hate about phones is peopel who dont get to the point and then go away, they just want to talk and tell their whole days events
00:52:30 <geoff_k_> as if i would be really interested
00:52:37 <Gonozal_VIII> why is there a 12:30 am but no 24:30
00:55:10 <geoff_k_> time can be what it wants i have enough trouble remembering what year it is and who is priminister sometimes
00:55:58 <geoff_k_> i've been known to fail on both questions
00:56:35 <Gonozal_VIII> good for you ln, want to share it with us?
00:57:04 <geoff_k_> i actualy failed a job interview on the year i asked the guy what date was i said ... erm.. oh what year
00:57:13 <ln-> yes, i just want everyone's attention first.
00:57:40 <ln-> the question: can one use multiple CPUs under DOS?
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00:58:06 <Tefad> highly unlikely without a crazy kernel.
00:58:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r11472 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Give enuma for both the widget numbers and the used smallmap currently used type
00:59:01 <ln-> Tefad: but the DOS itself doesn't need to know about it, because a program that is started gets full control of the whole computer.
00:59:26 <Tefad> in that case yes, you can run a dos program that loads linux and make use of multiple CPUs.
00:59:40 <Tefad> what you do is probably not going to be "DOS"
01:00:01 <Tefad> i doubt you'd be able to communicate back to dos functions easily
01:00:11 <Tefad> dos is not a multithreaded OS for one
01:00:49 <Tefad> even win9x doesn't support multiple CPus
01:00:53 <ln-> no, but that doesn't mean one's own application couldn't multithread.
01:01:06 <Tefad> if your application uses the OS ...
01:01:19 <Tefad> the OS provides the threads
01:01:26 <Tefad> DOS doesn't provide threads
01:01:40 <Tefad> you'd essentially be writing an OS for your program
01:01:45 <ln-> true, that's why the application itself has to implement threads.
01:02:16 <ln-> one can achieve thread-like behavior e.g. with active objects.
01:02:16 <Tefad> DOS uses interrupts to simulated multitasking
01:04:37 <ln-> does using multiple CPUs imply using protected mode?
01:04:52 <Tefad> i've never really done low level programming on a PC
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01:05:26 <Tefad> i would imagine you'd need some way of keeping one CPU from writing to data belonging to the other CPU
01:05:38 <Gonozal_VIII> why do you want to use multiple cpus in dos anyways?
01:06:02 <Tefad> dos is lightweight, boots in mere milliseconds on modern hardware.
01:06:11 <Tefad> however it's rather limited ; )
01:06:56 <Gonozal_VIII> openttd server running dos?
01:07:10 <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: obviously one's brand new 8-core is not fully taken advantage of if only one cpu is utilized.
01:07:24 <Tefad> why would you run dos on it
01:07:37 <Tefad> run linux on it with 8 dosboxes or something..
01:07:55 <Tefad> you're also not using all 64bits
01:08:09 <ln-> i don't have a 8-core machine yet, not even 2-core, but that's not very far away in the future when one can buy such with sensible amount of money.
01:08:09 <Tefad> there's barely any support for 32bit in dos, let alone 64bit
01:08:32 <Tefad> why would you need to run DOS on the hardware
01:08:58 <Tefad> i can't think of any dos programs (aside from weird hardware-specific ones) that i /need/ to run on the hardware
01:09:10 <Tefad> dosbox or qemu is plenty fast
01:09:14 <ln-> ain't it great that the state-of-the-art hardware still probably runs MS-DOS 1.0?
01:09:39 <Tefad> ln-: not really. it prevents us from moving very far
01:09:52 <Tefad> we have to bootstrap from an environment capable of running decades old software
01:10:02 <ln-> there was and is the more advanced PowerPC, of course.
01:10:03 <Tefad> it's like a rube goldberg machine
01:10:09 <Gonozal_VIII> there can be too much bachwards compability
01:10:10 <ln-> as well as e.g. UltraSPARC.
01:10:41 <Tefad> those platforms aren't very uniform, and generally have a single OS associated with a given manufacturer
01:11:32 <Tefad> with the PC you can run all sorts of crap and it evolved without abrupt changes because there are many many manufacturers involved
01:12:12 <fjb> DOS doesn't use multiple CPUs. Your application can ofcourse, but only if it switches to protected mode. But you are not able to use any features of DOS then. You have even to provide your own file system.
01:12:21 <Tefad> for example i can't install Mac System 6 on a current Mac
01:12:38 <Tefad> fjb: so essentially he has to write his own OS.
01:13:01 <ln-> fjb: is this implication "multiple cpus -> protected mode" a fact?
01:13:40 <Tefad> and if the program intends to ever return control back to DOS (or able to allow interrupts) he has to be very careful when programming, eh?
01:13:42 <Gonozal_VIII> run multiple instances of dos :D
01:13:58 <Tefad> Gonozal_VIII: that'd require careful trickery
01:14:09 <Tefad> and probably emulation of certain things
01:14:16 <fjb> But what would you do with multiple kernels when you only have 640k ram?
01:14:20 <Tefad> i think desqview would be somewhere to start
01:14:48 <Gonozal_VIII> 640k ram on a 8 core hardware?
01:14:56 <Tefad> Gonozal_VIII: that's all DOS really sees
01:15:04 <ln-> hmmm, doesn't x86 have support for running stuff on a virtual 8088?
01:15:29 <ln-> had it once, it messed up my config.sys and autoexec.bat
01:15:43 <ln-> and i doubt it supports multiple cpus either.
01:15:47 <fjb> DOS boots fast, but everything else is limited to 640k or becomes dead slow because it has to push everything through a small memory window. And modeswitching is also dead slow.
01:16:39 <Tefad> oh also dos is very compact.
01:16:48 <Tefad> however you'd probably be better off using QNX or something ; )
01:16:57 <Gonozal_VIII> so dos apps could use the cpu cache as ram?^^
01:17:02 <fjb> 80368 inventet a mode with virtual 8086s. But I don't know if that survived to modern cpus.
01:17:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r11473 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Replace two more instances of widget/smalltype numbers by enum(-a) values
01:17:23 <Tefad> fjb: isn't that what makes WoW possible? or am i on crack
01:18:03 <fjb> Hm, maybe, don't know that much about the internals of windows.
01:18:20 <Tefad> fjb: i think all features from 8086 are carried on into modern CPUs unless the CPU is a special edition
01:18:28 <Tefad> (like some 386s that removed real mode)
01:19:05 <Tefad> is that the turbo thing?
01:19:18 <Tefad> maybe i'm confusing stuff.
01:19:57 <fjb> It is a switch that enables dos to use 64k more adress space in real mode.
01:21:22 <SmatZ> Tefad: some 386 don't support RM?
01:21:35 <Tefad> SmatZ: one moment. they're used in embedded systems. not PCs
01:22:21 <ln-> i guess it's too much to expect that there's 64-bit support in real mode with current cpus...
01:22:56 <SmatZ> fjb: yup :) and on top of that, it allows you to acces every odd megabyte of memory :)
01:23:32 <Tefad> actually it was the 80376, my bad. the 80386EX replaced it (and retains real mode apparently)
01:24:18 <fjb> Amd64 doesn't have the virtual 8086 mode anymore, not even in compatibility mode.
01:24:19 <Tefad> don't let number fool you with sequence, the 80376 was a modified 80386SX.
01:25:03 <SmatZ> Tefad: hmm really strange that the investment into chip redesign with removing RM is worth it :)
01:25:11 <fjb> Real mode is only 16 bit.
01:25:21 <Tefad> fjb: are you sure the chip doesn't have it, or the mode doesn't allow use it?
01:25:33 <SmatZ> not to be misunderstood, when running 32bit OS, the v86 mode is available
01:25:35 <Tefad> long mode doesn't allow v8086
01:25:39 <fjb> Don't know what it uses then. Kind of an emulation I guess.
01:26:12 <fjb> Compatibility mode is the 32bit mode of Amd64.
01:26:35 <SmatZ> Tefad: the task types of V86 are invalid in long mode / compatibility mode
01:27:19 <SmatZ> hmm I think "legacy mode" = 16 or 32bit mode, "long mode" = 64bit mode, "compatibility mode" = running 32bit app under 64bit OS
01:27:47 <fjb> Is the so called "dos box" still a real dos mode? Or is it just a command shell for XP?
01:28:28 <Tefad> fjb: "dos box" was never real mode
01:28:41 <Tefad> which is why 64bit windows dosn't have a dos box
01:28:48 <Tefad> or support for 16bit apps
01:29:12 <fjb> But anyway, there is no use of DOS anymore on modern CPUs.
01:29:26 <Tefad> some win95 installers, while containing actual 32bit software, were 16bit.
01:29:41 <Tefad> fjb: well, any use that makes sense
01:29:56 <Tefad> if you have a PC bios, you still have the foundation of DOS
01:30:32 <Tefad> i don't think any modern OSs make much use of bios calls
01:30:56 <SmatZ> Tefad: depends what you call 'modern', but BIOSes are used for power management
01:31:53 <fjb> Modern systems have two kinds of bios, 16bit and 32bit.
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01:32:13 <Tefad> i've never played around much with the 32bit part
01:32:36 <fjb> Any modern OS uses the 32bit parts of the bios.
01:32:51 <Tefad> how does EFI fit into this
01:34:00 <SmatZ> hmm too long time since I read any text about Itanium :-x
01:34:54 <Tefad> EFI is a new kind of firmware
01:35:17 <Tefad> (the devkit macs had pc-bios btw)
01:36:20 <Tefad> unreal mode is a subset of real mode allowing for >1MB memory access
01:36:29 <fjb> Don't know the acronym EFI, there are too many 3 letter acronyms. Macs have a new kind of bios. Maybe it gets used on more platforms in future.
01:36:49 <Tefad> extensible firmware interface
01:37:02 <Tefad> it's a pre-bios kind of thing
01:37:37 <Tefad> n/m IGGNORRREEE MEEEE </venture bros>
01:38:34 <SmatZ> also, why are you talking about EFI and 'unreal mode' together?
01:38:50 <Tefad> my brain works in mysterious ways : D
01:39:14 <Tefad> the EFI stuff can fall out, none here seems to know how it works ; )
01:40:00 <Tefad> EFI is similar to openfirmware
01:41:13 <SmatZ> I got a printed documentation for Itaniums... I was rather anhusiast about it, when it was new :) I will look into it for some information
01:41:56 <SmatZ> hmm electronic documents allow faster searching
01:43:01 <fjb> Itaniums are nice, when you have an OS for them. But they are too power hungry for my home.
01:46:17 <Tefad> don't they also have crappy performance for dollar
01:49:53 <Tefad> haha, intel developed a software emulator faster than the hardware emulator for running x86 code on itaniums
01:51:00 <fjb> Yes, but that is not astonishing.
01:51:19 <fjb> And the performance is not that crappy.
01:52:01 <Tefad> i think the product was well overhyped
01:53:10 <Tefad> i'm no intel-basher.. i have no x86 that isn't intel (well i think i own a k6-2 chip, but it's not installed anywhere). six p4's
01:53:27 <Tefad> mostly handed down to me
01:54:19 <Rotonen> netburst was an unique concept
01:54:33 <Rotonen> with or without proper english
01:55:00 <fjb> And it is good that is was unique and stays unique. That happens when marketing dictates the development.
01:55:12 <Tefad> i have a sparc and an alpha
01:55:56 <Tefad> neither will boot an OS
01:57:04 <Tefad> the alpha will post, sort of
01:57:16 <Tefad> alphastations are weird creatures
01:57:34 <Tefad> er it's an personal workstation
01:58:14 <Tefad> it emulates x86 to interface with the graphics BIOS (PC bios, but card was only made for DEC.. go figure)
01:58:49 <fjb> Hm, I never owned an Alpha.
01:59:14 <Tefad> two double-height sticks of 512MB DIMMs
02:00:03 <Tefad> ram sticks are ginormous ; )
02:00:10 <Tefad> they're taller than half their length.
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02:05:18 <fjb> Just looking at the german phorum I wonder why users of TTDP and OpenTTD always try to vage war on each other.
02:06:47 <fjb> Sacro: Thank you, my english is not the best.
02:07:22 <Gonozal_VIII> why what's happening there? i don't read the german forum
02:08:54 *** TrainzStoffe is now known as Stoffe
02:09:08 <fjb> Some OpenTTD users claim that TTDP is already dead and nobody uses it anymore. Some TTDP users clain that OpenTTD 0.6 brings nothing new and that everything is stolen from TTDP. etc...
02:12:05 <Gonozal_VIII> well.. i think it would be better to have only one game of that type and all programmers work on that but both exist, both have some things in which they are better than the other and people that prefer that, so you can't just discontinue one of them
02:15:23 <fjb> I don't think it would be better to have only one of them. As you say both have their strong and their weak points. And it looks like the development teams are working more with each other than against each other.
02:29:01 <fjb> I should go to bed. Good night.
02:39:27 <Gonozal_VIII> woa where does that one way road switch come from
02:39:51 <Gonozal_VIII> didn't notice that before
02:48:32 <Gonozal_VIII> is there some kind of trick to do transfer in both directions?
02:49:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
03:10:35 <Gonozal_VIII> stupid passengers...
03:30:14 <ln-> hmm, what an interesting file:
03:30:20 <ln-> NOTICE %s :TSUNAMI <target> <secs> = Special packeter that wont be blocke
03:30:24 <ln-> NOTICE %s :PAN <target> <port> <secs> = An advanced syn flooder that will ki
03:30:30 <ln-> NOTICE %s :UDP <target> <port> <secs> = A udp flooder
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04:35:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r11474 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt smallmap_gui.cpp):
04:35:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Feature: Allow to resize on creation the smallmap gui in order to show all the types industry available.
04:35:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Feature: Allow to enable/disable individually or all at once, the industries shown on small map.
04:35:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: This will permit to easily find those that are of some interest for the player.
04:35:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Heavily based on gule's patch
04:38:06 <Gonozal_VIII> Feature: Allow to resize on creation the smallmap gui in order to show all the types industry available <-- that's new to me, nice.. and the rest is obviously cool
04:38:58 <Belugas> i've just cleaned it up
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05:12:56 <Gonozal_VIII> bah... don't say morning before i even started sleeping
05:13:11 <De_Ghost> good night!!!!!!!!!!!!!
05:13:16 <mikk36|work> Gonozal_VIII, i just arrived at work, 7:13 here :)
05:14:37 <Gonozal_VIII> where is it 7? russia?
05:14:52 <mikk36|work> russia is 8 already
05:15:17 <Gonozal_VIII> i thought estonia had cet
05:15:20 <mikk36|work> you're +1 in austria, remember ? :P
05:16:35 <Gonozal_VIII> i don't know the time zones that well but i know that they are bent around very much
05:16:55 <mikk36|work> well, not that much here in europe though
05:17:24 <Gonozal_VIII> i think there should be one between france and germany but isn't
05:17:56 <mikk36|work> one more between them ?
05:18:10 <mikk36|work> don't see a point actually
05:18:58 <mikk36|work> i really don't like those half-hour zones
05:19:16 <Gonozal_VIII> no not half hour
05:19:37 <mikk36|work> and to move germany to +2 would be a bit nonsense i think
05:20:40 <mikk36|work> i would have categorized france as UTC though :P
05:20:47 <mikk36|work> if it was up to me
05:22:03 <Gonozal_VIII> as i said... it should be between germany and france
05:22:43 <mikk36|work> that map doesn't show estonia as +2
05:23:27 <mikk36|work> here's a better one
05:23:39 <mikk36|work> portugal was also wrong there
05:28:30 <Gonozal_VIII> ah... stupid timezones.. they should use the same time everywhere, doesn't matter when the sun rises or whatever
05:29:03 <Tefad_> most of them store time as seconds elapsed since the UNIX Epoch
05:29:27 <Gonozal_VIII> yes... just use the unix timecode
05:29:36 <mikk36|work> how does motherboard store it ? :P
05:29:56 <mikk36|work> De_Ghost, are you stupid ?
05:30:12 <Tefad_> motherboards don't carry timezone information that i know of
05:30:19 <mikk36|work> wiki estonia from google :)
05:30:32 <Tefad_> it's up to the OS to track timezone
05:30:37 <Tefad_> many store time in UTC
05:30:45 <Tefad_> windows though, likes to use localtime.
05:30:51 <De_Ghost> i though mobo just store A time
05:31:04 <Tefad_> right, without timezone.
05:31:25 <De_Ghost> been a while since i had to hit bios :)
05:31:30 <mikk36|work> well, unix timecode doesn't store zone either
05:31:37 <Tefad_> mikk36|work: yes it does
05:31:48 <Tefad_> UTC or GMT depending on application i think.
05:31:56 <Tefad_> (one has leapseconds, one doesn't)
05:32:16 <mikk36|work> they are the same
05:33:54 <Tefad_> i think UT1 and GMT are the same
05:36:29 <Gonozal_VIII> [06:29:43] De_Ghost: estonia/ [06:29:46] De_Ghost: are you black? <-- i still don't get that question
05:36:54 <Gonozal_VIII> what does the one have to do with the other :S
05:39:43 <mikk36|work> De_Ghost, where do/did you think estonia is ?
05:45:33 <Tefad_> In 1928 the term Universal Time was adopted internationally as a more precise term than Greenwich Mean Time, because the GMT could refer to either an astronomical day starting at noon or a civil day starting at midnight. However, the term Greenwich Mean Time persists in common usage to this day in reference to civil timekeeping.
05:45:42 <Tefad_> we were both wrong : x
05:46:20 <Gonozal_VIII> oh.. didn't know that days could start at noon
05:48:26 <Tefad_> UTC is an approximation of UT1 that can vary by up to 900ms and has occasional leap seconds.
05:49:03 <Tefad_> UT1 seems to be the definitive continuous time.
05:50:12 <Tefad_> 3ms uncertainty per day due to variations in earth's rotation
05:50:33 <Tefad_> the seconds are slightly different from SI units
05:50:56 <Gonozal_VIII> that's not good...
05:50:59 <Tefad_> SI is defined by atomic decay.. never changing (unless there's something about the universe we don't know)
05:51:09 <Gonozal_VIII> many definitions base on seconds
05:51:29 <Tefad_> SI is definitive for the term second.
05:51:36 <mikk36|work> so.. how long is a second then ? :P
05:51:40 <Tefad_> UT1 defines second to be 86400 units in one day.
05:52:03 <Tefad_> length of a day varies (rotation variations)
05:52:36 <Tefad_> SI seconds are constant.
05:52:47 <Gonozal_VIII> seems to be very unpractical to have variable seconds
05:52:52 <Tefad_> the earth is gradually slowing down due to tidal acceleration of the moon
05:53:10 <Tefad_> Gonozal_VIII: that's why SI defined it in terms of atomic decay.
05:53:46 <Gonozal_VIII> really decay? decay is kind of random...
05:54:06 <Rotonen> AFAIK seconds are defined by a stable oscillation
05:54:18 <Rotonen> please do wiki your facts beforehand
05:54:20 <Tefad_> at some point in the distant future we'll have to either redefine the second, or add leap second(s) along with leap years or something.
05:54:41 <Rotonen> leap years work just fine
05:55:27 <Gonozal_VIII> for people leap seconds don't matter, nobody will notice that and for electronic devices there are the atomic clocks that distribute the right time :-)
05:56:24 <Tefad_> Gonozal_VIII: yeah, but if you look at a clock and see 23:59:60 you'll probably scratch your head.
05:56:56 <Gonozal_VIII> but it's already over before your hand reaches your head ;-)
05:57:09 <Rotonen> also keeping everything in sync would just require too much extra effort in a variable system
05:57:27 <Gonozal_VIII> nah... variable seconds suck
05:57:50 <Gonozal_VIII> but leap seconds once a year or something are not a problem
05:58:10 <Rotonen> why not just settle with the current leap year system?
05:59:14 <Gonozal_VIII> you mean like add another rule where every 2000th year is not a leap year or something?
05:59:16 <Tefad_> because say.. 10000 years from now, the day will have 86401 seconds in it?
05:59:48 <Tefad_> you just want to have leapseconds wait for ~86400 of accumulation?
05:59:55 <Tefad_> then do them all in a day
06:00:30 <Rotonen> check your facts on the timescale :)
06:01:10 <Rotonen> imho our current system will outlive the habitability of our biosphere
06:01:11 <Tefad_> 10000 years was a number i pull from my arse
06:01:29 <Rotonen> indeed, it is a very short time for the change in question to occur
06:03:16 <Gonozal_VIII> how long is your estimated rest-habitability of this biosphere?
06:03:32 <Tefad_> well for the record our day is already 86400.002 seconds long
06:04:15 <Tefad_> from the 86400 established in 1820.
06:04:44 <Tefad_> i was only off by an order of magnitude : )
06:04:50 <Gonozal_VIII> i don't think they could calculate that with the same accuracy back then
06:05:10 <Tefad_> whatever it was, is now 2ms longer.
06:05:49 <Gonozal_VIII> which is less than a second per year
06:05:58 <Tefad_> in 89500 years the length of a day will be approximately 86401 seconds.
06:06:19 <mikk36|work> that so matters :P
06:06:38 <Gonozal_VIII> i can't live with that... i guess i have to kill myself in 89500 years
06:06:48 <Tefad_> because if i set a device to trigger exactly 89500 years from now, it'll be off by a second!
06:07:19 <Tefad_> actually it'd probably be non functional by that time.. and it would be off by more than a second.
06:07:48 <mikk36|work> because of different electrical interferences :)
06:07:59 <Tefad_> in 90k years from now, people will have a leap second PER DAY.
06:08:18 <mikk36|work> 365 seconds a yead
06:08:23 <mikk36|work> that's.. 6 minutes
06:08:25 <Tefad_> every 236 years they have an extra leap day.
06:08:47 <Rotonen> i think an extra 365 seconds at new years which belong to no year would be cool
06:08:59 <Rotonen> but would probably cause havoc to daily rythm on the long run :)
06:09:06 <Tefad_> anyway this is all quite trivial : D
06:09:12 <hylje> not to mention computer systems
06:09:16 <Rotonen> not really a problem for our generation to solve
06:09:36 <mikk36|work> i'll just keep syncing my clocks :)
06:09:37 <Gonozal_VIII> to accumulate them to a whole day you would have to accept noon in the middle of the night and so on
06:09:37 <Tefad_> Rotonen: the incans or myans or whatever used lunar calandar and they believed the short month of the year was extremely unlucky.
06:10:27 <Rotonen> also afaik the slowing down of the rotation was not linear, don't really have the insight to say how it will depend on time
06:10:27 <Tefad_> Gonozal_VIII: this is why we need to use UTC globally.
06:10:55 <Tefad_> Rotonen: agreed.. like i said this is all quite trivial ; )
06:12:38 <Tefad_> Gonozal_VIII: and good point.
06:12:53 <Tefad_> leap seconds will matter.. quite a few years from now.
06:14:00 <Tefad_> by then maybe we'll be extinct.. our decendant species will have already solved the variable second problem (or has a completely different concept of time.. maybe metric time will be used.. heh who knows)
06:15:43 <Gonozal_VIII> maybe by then only a minority of our species still is on this planet so nobody cares about it's rotation anymore
06:18:29 <mikk36|work> Gonozal_VIII, just go sleeping already :P
06:20:24 <Gonozal_VIII> but then i would have to stop thinking about building a giant ring that rotates around the sun and people live on the sunny side with a roof made out of half transparent solar panels that protect them from the sun and produce energy
06:21:46 <mikk36|work> is that so bad then ?
06:24:20 <Tefad_> or we'll be cosmic dust as an intergalactic bypass occupies what used to be our planet's orbit.
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10:04:06 <MarkSlap> Shower, then sleep. Ciao :)
10:09:03 <MarkSlap> Gosh, I went to sleep in front of the computer, sitting. Naah, nighty then :p
10:35:32 *** init is now known as init100
10:38:49 <Rubidium> but the real question is whether you really need a developer to answer your question (I'm assuming you have some question for them)
10:40:43 <init100> Yeah, but I should maybe read the dev docs first...:)
10:42:32 <dihedral> why not ask your question? if you need to read the dev docs first, someone is bound to tell you just that :-D
10:43:09 <init100> I'm trying to split the realistic acceleration patch (the one in the trunk) into several settings, as curve and hill handling isn't really related to acceleration.
10:43:58 <init100> But I get an invalid chunk when trying to load a savegame. I just found out that there is documentation about this in the Wiki.
11:00:28 <init100> Okay, now it works, albeit with one flaw. I haven't figured out how to enlarge the patches window yet, which means that the last two options in the Vehicles section is now pushed outside the window.
11:00:49 <init100> And this isn't mentioned in the "Add patch" section of the Wiki
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11:19:05 <init100> Windows are strange. I enlarged the patches window, but the background color still only took up the previous amount of space.
11:20:17 <init100> Ahh, I have to resize the panel too...
11:26:05 <Rubidium> the patch option window need to be completely rewritten as it is going to be too big on small screens anyway
11:31:24 <init100> One idea that could make the pages smaller is o have sub-categories in each patch category. One could e.g. have General, YAPF, Realism and Service sub-categories on the vehicle page.
11:33:30 <init100> If possible, the game should also compute the window and panel size of the patches window from the options in the window, so that patch developers wouldn't have to modify sizes manually. Just a thought.
11:35:01 <Rubidium> and add some scrollbars for small screens and there you've got the requirements for the rewritten patch option window.
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11:36:20 <dihedral> Rubidium: could it be of interest to have 2 more autoexecuted script files?
11:36:44 <dihedral> 1 on the yearly look, and another for the client, <host>_<port>.scr
11:37:06 <dihedral> so a client can set nicks or rcon aliases according to the server one joins?
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12:31:17 <init100> Now, the patch is done and uploaded to the Flyspray tracker. A thread has also been created in the forum.
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13:50:38 <geoff_k_> is it possible to turn off breakdowns on a dedicated once its running?
13:50:49 <geoff_k_> cant seem to find a setting for it
13:50:57 <geoff_k_> didn't think so thanks
13:50:58 <dihedral> its in the difficulty setting
13:51:15 <dihedral> if you search wiki.openttd.org for 'openttd.cfg' you'll get some detailed info
13:51:20 <geoff_k_> yeah unfortunately game is started i don;t mind its on low
13:51:49 <geoff_k_> i was asked to change it but too late now
13:57:29 <dihedral> pause the game, save it, load it in single player, change the setting, save it, load it on the dedicated server
14:08:23 <Gonozal_VIII> is there no way to keep transferred cargo from entering a vehicle of the same line it just came from?
14:08:47 <Gonozal_VIII> for two way transfer
14:08:48 <dihedral> transfer + leave empty (unload)
14:09:35 <De_Ghost> u need a diffrent platform
14:10:05 <Gonozal_VIII> not only platform, a whole different station for in and out..
14:11:27 <Gonozal_VIII> doesn't make sense that it takes the same vehicle again unless it's got transfer and take cargo as order
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15:30:40 <spark_> is option "fixed order" or "shared orders" available yet ?
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15:48:22 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
15:51:03 <Bjarni> the question is... do I agree to whatever you replied to? :)
15:51:36 <dihedral> 16:45 < spark_> anybody here ??
15:51:54 <Bjarni> I wasn't here when he asked that
15:53:02 <spark_> how can i destroy radio transmitter in openttd ?
15:53:29 <Bjarni> that's why they are listed as "unremovable objects"
15:53:42 <Bjarni> well I think you can if you cheat from the cheat menu
15:53:58 <Bjarni> but cheating is for cheaters
15:54:13 <Bjarni> and it will be saved that you cheated and it doesn't work in multiplayer
15:54:24 <dihedral> 16:53 <@Bjarni> but cheating is for cheaters
15:54:42 <Bjarni> I knew you would like that one ;)
15:54:47 <dihedral> spark_: go around, under or dont
15:55:25 <spark_> i need to build a station there
15:55:30 <hylje> transmitters are the only way to keep high hills high
15:56:18 <hylje> in the absence of bedrock
15:58:10 <Bjarni> Hannah Baberra didn't give us permission to use Bedrock... they claimed to need it for Viva Rock Vegas or something
15:58:18 <Bjarni> that's why it's not in the game
15:59:01 <hylje> ha ha that's funny, laugh everyone!
16:00:34 <Bjarni> dihedral didn't say lol
16:00:54 <dihedral> lol <-- that's for Bjarni
16:02:36 <Bjarni> you didn't do it before the timeout
16:02:46 <Bjarni> now I have to figure out another joke to get this working
16:03:29 <dihedral> you can tell me what's 'wrong' with FS1363 (code wise) - note there is a v5 :-P
16:04:47 * dihedral beleives spark_ ededted the scenario or cheated
16:04:51 <Bjarni> dihedral: well... I have to spend time reading the code
16:05:16 <Bjarni> so you have to compensate me for my loss by reading this file
16:05:38 <dihedral> and where would the file be?
16:05:47 <Bjarni> either that or accept that I don't really have time or energy to read a whole new diff (since I never read it)
16:06:06 <spark_> i just added another station :)
16:06:34 <dihedral> Bjarni: i'll compensate you by doing some coding you really dong feel like doing, but note that you also need to take my limited c/c++ knowledge into account
16:06:36 <Bjarni> he decided to remove a building so the station could be placed on the tile next to the transmitter
16:06:44 <Bjarni> but now the town will no longer accept goods :P
16:07:02 <dihedral> Bjarni: that is crediting him too much :-P
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16:07:37 <dihedral> Bjarni: what say you to the compensation idea?
16:08:05 <Bjarni> I'm not sure that I want to get code from a guy who writes "dong" by mistake
16:08:21 <Bjarni> I fear that the code might stink
16:08:35 <dihedral> you can decide that by looking at the diff
16:09:06 <Bjarni> more seriously... I'm supposed to do something else
16:09:17 <dihedral> i'm happy to help :-)
16:09:25 <Bjarni> maybe I should just hide IRC so I can get some work done
16:10:29 <Bjarni> dihedral: thank you, but no thanks... you see it's work on a higher level and I don't think you can follow me that far
16:11:23 <dihedral> Bjarni: then i at least learn something from it, and can help another time
16:12:00 <Bjarni> w=y<z?w>z?3:t>a?a++:--x:y++; <-- this is also only a few chars but it takes forever to figure out
16:12:28 <Bjarni> hint: it's valid C code
16:12:44 <dihedral> Bjarni: figured that
16:13:28 <Bjarni> this is a good line to write whenever somebody says something like "it's only a few lines"... the question is not always the number of lines, but the content
16:13:39 <dihedral> it's not such a hard line
16:13:58 <Bjarni> actually it's not but it can really scare n00bs away
16:14:19 <dihedral> you successfull on detecting a non-scared-noob :-P
16:14:31 <Bjarni> and everybody else who doesn't look at it correctly :P
16:15:00 <Bjarni> but... I fail to see any code where that line would be useful
16:15:11 <dihedral> though for readability that is pretty much a nasty line
16:15:34 <dihedral> and personally i would love to slap anybody who codes like that
16:15:46 <dihedral> just because it gets others confused
16:15:53 <dihedral> when in the need of reading code
16:16:05 <Bjarni> it takes longer to read a line like that than a line like "p->Send_uint16(client_index);"
16:16:11 <frosch123> The most evil thing in c I ever met: if (a-->b)
16:16:32 <Bjarni> I have to remember that one
16:17:05 <frosch123> dihedral has not understood the line :)
16:17:18 <Bjarni> a->b is normal, but the line actually says "(a--) > b"
16:17:21 <dihedral> i see a -1 and a greater than
16:17:45 <dihedral> hence it's not so evil appart from assigning a value in a if
16:17:49 <frosch123> Do you know, how long it took me to find the second minus?
16:17:57 <Bjarni> but it's really easy to confuse it with a->b, hence a pointer to a struct
16:18:13 <dihedral> but still - there is a second -
16:18:31 <Bjarni> <frosch123> Do you know, how long it took me to find the second minus? <--- hours :P
16:18:31 <dihedral> so Bjarni how about it :-P
16:19:39 <Bjarni> I once spent days figuring out why I had an SGC window crash when I tried to open OpenTTD (while I was porting it)... turned out that it was a nice undocumented feature so I should include a header file to main that main didn't use (due to defines)
16:19:51 <Bjarni> I think it took me 3 days or so to figure out
16:32:23 <ln-> question: is it a good idea that the fullscreen state is saved when exiting, as it is now?
16:33:34 <dihedral> why would it not be?
16:37:05 <dihedral> i find saving the generation seed lese usefull....
16:37:25 <dihedral> as on dedicated servers that means they have the same map each time they are properly restarted
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16:48:22 <dihedral> eney meney miney mow
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17:27:42 <Ammller> Rubidium: now I know, what you mean with forcing revisions, there are hacked bins available with c&p in it
17:28:22 <Ammller> didn't know that, thats really bad.
17:38:58 <Ammller> Frostregen: is it somehow possible for server to detec, if a client use this cheat?
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17:47:51 <dihedral> Ammller: what do you mean with 'hacked'?
17:48:58 <Ammller> patch -p0 < c&p.patch && ./configure revision=0.6.0-beta1 && make
17:49:23 <dihedral> lets keep that conversation here
17:49:30 <dihedral> 18:49 < dihedral> i am not following you with what is _that_ bad...
17:50:18 <Ammller> you can use this cheat on clients connected to our servers
17:50:40 <skidd13> dihedral: Someone chould patch his client with the C&P patch and force his revision to the servers revision. And as the patch uses the cmd's the server won't notice
17:51:04 <dihedral> skidd13: i follow that part
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17:51:12 <dihedral> i patch my servers and the clients dont notice
17:51:13 <Ammller> maybe we could count commands per sec
17:51:39 <dihedral> but then i dont get the 'danger' of it
17:51:43 <Ammller> and if there are more then i.e. 2 from same client -> ban
17:52:08 <Ammller> did I ever speak from danger?
17:52:23 <skidd13> Ammller: Let a WC3 player play OTTD and you migth have to adapt the values
17:52:24 <dihedral> then i dont get the issue
17:52:29 <Ammller> its "just" unfair to the ones who can't use it
17:53:08 <dihedral> Ammller: the thing with c&p users is, 1. you can tell by the style of building, because it's not human like but tile by tile
17:53:15 <dihedral> 2. they alwas build the same
17:53:57 <dihedral> and, c&p allows you to limit the speed of it too
17:54:50 <Ammller> well I am wrong, its not unfair to them who can't use it, its unfair to the guys who use it :)
17:55:15 <dihedral> but how on earth do you want to detect a modified client?
17:56:24 <Ammller> well, biggest problem is, that this binary is available public
17:56:38 <dihedral> you could limit the amount of doCommands a server will accept form any client in a certain time period
17:56:47 <dihedral> but then again, that can be changed on the client side too
17:56:48 <Ammller> we hadn't that on our servers when we use nightlies
17:57:06 <dihedral> buildottd is around...
17:57:11 <dihedral> that is all you need
17:57:19 <Ammller> hmm, you can't do it with bottd
17:57:20 <dihedral> even for nightly games
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17:58:00 <skidd13> To kill the possible violation of script kiddies you could add a savegame bump to the c&p patch
17:58:18 <dihedral> well - that is nothing 'we' could add
17:58:38 <glx> skidd13: doesn't matter as it still can load unpatched version
17:58:47 <Ammller> I think, most important should be to remove the bins from Frostregen's thread
17:59:01 <dihedral> Ammller: you have no control over that
17:59:06 <dihedral> OpenTTD is open source
17:59:13 <dihedral> and therefore those bins are 100% legit
17:59:19 <Ammller> omg, guys who can compile don't use this
18:00:00 <dihedral> Ammller: not quite - i know a few who can compile and use it :-D
18:00:02 <skidd13> glx: Sure it's more or less a little stone you throw them in the way, but as the game is open source you wont' be able to prevent such missusage
18:00:40 <Ammller> skidd13: we hadn't this problem yet
18:01:01 <Ammller> well, its not a problem
18:01:03 <dihedral> skidd13: define 'misusage'
18:01:41 <skidd13> dihedral: modify the game to abnormal behavior to your advantage
18:02:07 <Ammller> I was just scared that this bin is so easy available
18:02:11 <dihedral> as that is not /forbidden/ in the license, that sounds more like a cheat
18:02:29 <dihedral> Ammller: they have been for some time now
18:02:32 <glx> non dedicated servers (debug build) can cheat easily too
18:02:58 <dihedral> there is no way you can trust any client!
18:03:44 <Ammller> but something like a cheat detector?
18:04:03 <dihedral> then i'll change my client to send a 'no i am not cheating' packet
18:04:05 <Ammller> not possible for a opensource
18:05:03 <dihedral> you could build a detection on the last 5 tiles a client built and 'simply' add checks if this could be normal human interaction or not
18:05:15 <dihedral> and that then would be fully server side
18:05:51 <dihedral> and that would be a bunch of static logic
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18:08:06 <oh> stuck in a neverending queue behind some player with a dialup connection from the stone age
18:08:33 <dihedral> that is a good chance to practice patience
18:08:44 <oh> when I finally connect, he disconnects and so do I
18:08:48 <oh> and we do it all over again :P
18:10:28 <dihedral> Ammller: c&p builds tile by tile
18:11:01 <Ammller> I know, its same as you do manually
18:11:05 <oh> have there been any major networking changes in 0.6?
18:11:13 <dihedral> so if it 'builds' 5 tiles that just dont make sense
18:11:24 <dihedral> it does not build like you do normally
18:11:35 <geoff_k_> yeah don;t blame you
18:11:44 <geoff_k_> no idea whats going on never seen it be like this
18:12:05 <Ammller> I uesed it on chrisin
18:12:14 <oh> need to play some enemy territory or halo to blow off some steam ;P
18:12:28 <dihedral> it does one tile after the other
18:13:25 <dihedral> no - if the server rememberd the last 5 or 10 tiles each client builds on
18:13:25 <geoff_k_> i don;t know where to suspect something has gone bad with the networking somewhere in the beta but i've never had lost connections like it
18:13:49 <dihedral> and runs 'static' checks over them
18:13:57 <dihedral> i.e. hardcoded checks
18:14:16 <dihedral> to determin if this was built by human or not i.e. does it make sense
18:14:53 <dihedral> and you only consider in that check tiles that are next to eachother
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18:26:46 <geoff_k_> im getting pretty much constant lost connections on this beta like i've never seen in the releases
18:27:54 <geoff_k_> only difference in this game to what i normaly run is the skill level of players is better but there aren't that many vehichles
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18:38:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r11475 /trunk/src/ (39 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: rename clamp and clampu to Clamp and ClampU to fit with the coding style
18:38:35 <dihedral> 19:26 < geoff_k_> im getting pretty much constant lost connections on this beta like i've never seen in the releases <-- hence it's beta
18:39:01 <geoff_k_> yeah not expecting a perfect ride i'd liek to be able to track why
18:39:24 <geoff_k_> there was a play constantly connecting and losing connection i've banned the ip now
18:39:47 <geoff_k_> was happening to everyone in the game
18:40:21 <glx> may be too big for some clients
18:40:56 <dihedral> you use pause when clients connect?
18:42:07 <Rubidium> does it have the word "desync" in the error message? If not, then the clients are just too slow
18:42:08 <geoff_k_> Rubidium, i;ve had a few desyncs but not many think there have been about 3 or 4
18:42:08 <Rubidium> did it have "desync" in the error message?
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18:42:15 <geoff_k_> not for all these problems, just says connection lost
18:42:27 <Rubidium> then it is not a desync
18:42:28 <geoff_k_> but there has been a couple of desyncs as well
18:42:34 <geoff_k_> they aren't the issue
18:42:52 <glx> check the server console, should have say "client #x is slow..."
18:42:59 <Rubidium> desync are an issue, connections lost due to bad network connections/slow clients are not an issue
18:43:35 <dihedral> one perfect example of 'user' and 'dev' oppinion :-)
18:43:43 <geoff_k_> there have been messages about slow clients but no one left playing now but for one player
18:44:09 <geoff_k_> who don't sseem to have any problem so far
18:44:10 <Rubidium> the desync is something that "we" can fix, network connection losts "we" cannot fix as it is a network/slow client issue
18:44:59 <geoff_k_> yeah i suspect one of 2 things, 1 being a client keep connecting and then lost connection, and also this plane speed i suspect a bit but not sure about that
18:45:06 <dihedral> i am sure you could fix it :-D
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18:45:30 <dihedral> how many vehicles do you have in that game geoff_k_
18:45:35 <geoff_k_> they are only things that i can see what are different or not normal
18:46:04 <Rubidium> oh, by the way... 0.6.0-beta1 is slower than 0.5.3 due to the assertions that are checked in 0.6.0-beta1 and not in 0.5.3
18:46:46 <geoff_k_> about 150 trains 80 planes ...
18:47:12 <geoff_k_> about 80 road and no ships
18:47:38 <geoff_k_> which dont sound like a lot
18:48:01 <dihedral> i was thinking that the constant disconnects could be due to cpu usage and not being able to handle it all
18:48:10 <geoff_k_> i know ive had a lot more than that wihtout problems, maybe its just the one client on a bad connection before
18:49:03 <geoff_k_> the player? it was 86.70.174.123:3981
18:49:27 <dihedral> what do i want to know the client for
18:49:59 <geoff_k_> 86.144.113.144 im on
18:51:09 <geoff_k_> its hard to see a problem no but everyone has left almost
18:51:27 <dihedral> that aint 0.6.0-beta1...
18:51:49 <geoff_k_> what port? its on 3981
18:52:16 <geoff_k_> what have i installed :)?
18:52:26 <dihedral> it was the other port...
18:52:42 <dihedral> you're running that at home arent you
18:52:53 <dihedral> can tell - slow upload :-P
18:53:12 <geoff_k_> yeah it will be a bit, gives about 50kbps i think in total
18:53:30 <dihedral> down is not interesting in this case
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18:53:49 <geoff_k_> connected about 0.5Mbit upstream
18:54:30 <geoff_k_> which should be enough not much bandwitdh gets used here
18:54:37 <dihedral> last time i waited this long to connect to a game was when i needed to download a 20mb map for ET
18:55:08 <dihedral> you are running 2 games there, right
18:55:11 <geoff_k_> its a pretty big map but wouldn;t think it should take that long dont sound right lot of industry on it
18:58:49 <dihedral> i have no idea what you have going on in that game, but it gets my cpu on 100%
18:59:01 <dihedral> the last time i saw a ottd game do that was at wwottdgd
18:59:07 <geoff_k_> yeah i been having that problem
18:59:19 <dihedral> could you pause the game for a sec?
19:02:51 <geoff_k_> it really shouldn't be a problem though but from here i cannot say for sure
19:03:44 <geoff_k_> i've got iptraf running and there is nothing happening as always is the case
19:05:35 <dihedral> you have an awful amount of industries...
19:05:43 <geoff_k_> yeah there is too many
19:05:48 <geoff_k_> its not on max though
19:06:03 <geoff_k_> i did set max 1st and it was way too much so restarted it a setting less
19:06:24 <dihedral> like i said - it gets my cpu to 100% which i have not had sinse wwottdgd
19:06:33 <dihedral> so there you have the reason for your disconnects
19:06:42 <geoff_k_> yeah thats odd though
19:07:22 <geoff_k_> i do get my cpu going usualy when the game gets well into playing i struggle to play it then but other peopel say they got no problems thats on all releases ive played
19:08:18 <dihedral> we had people at wwottdgd that had no issues playing either
19:08:30 <dihedral> all of them had a core 2 duo
19:08:41 <dihedral> i.e. a fairly new computer
19:09:15 <Ailure> that I never went over 30% on my computer
19:09:24 <Ailure> it was mostly around 20-25%
19:09:25 <Hendikins> Bjarni: TVM = Ticket Vending Machine
19:09:31 <Ailure> which would be 40-50% on a single core
19:09:36 *** Hendikins is now known as Hendikins|Work-BNE
19:10:00 <hylje> what about ottd supporting pedestrian traffic >:D
19:10:07 <geoff_k_> i know my system struggle on the client side when it gets going i;ve always had that this game seemed to happen a lot quicker but then people are better players to what im used to
19:10:09 <Ailure> something screw happened with the server though
19:10:14 <Ailure> but I never got problems clientside
19:10:21 <geoff_k_> still seems a bit too quick though
19:10:21 <Ailure> server starting to drop clients
19:10:31 <Rubidium> hylje: it already does; just code a NewGRF where 'people' go 5 km/h
19:10:37 <Ailure> even clients that was fast enough, that is
19:10:58 <dihedral> Ailure: ottd does not use 2 cores
19:11:17 <geoff_k_> one thing i notice is on the client side this 2Ghz (single core) don't seem to handle it really much better than my old PIII's
19:11:22 <hylje> Rubidium: what about station area planning to handle all those passengers?
19:11:23 <Ailure> [20:08] <Ailure> which would be 40-50% on a single core
19:11:32 <Ailure> becuse it's a single-threaded application
19:11:36 <Ailure> and I know about what threading is
19:11:41 <Ailure> and semaphores and etc
19:11:44 <Ailure> I even programmed with them
19:11:45 <hylje> how does Ailure know what threading is
19:12:39 <geoff_k_> i know what threaqding is, i run Xen servers and most people that run them except me use many cores becauses Xen can assign cores to virtual machines or groups of machines
19:13:37 <geoff_k_> this isn't running in a virtual machine though
19:13:44 <geoff_k_> itso n a physical box
19:13:52 <dihedral> that is beside the point
19:13:55 <geoff_k_> or bare metal as they say
19:14:01 <dihedral> you wanted to know why your clients disconnect
19:14:23 <geoff_k_> yeah i kind of know why but still not sure why that is happening
19:14:37 <dihedral> big map - lots of indus
19:15:06 <geoff_k_> i'll get a crappy old PIII out and install it on that play single play and see what slows it down
19:15:35 <Sacro> Brianetta: you sound like a pidgeon
19:15:44 <geoff_k_> like i say though i've had these map always until now its been ok for the most part
19:15:59 <geoff_k_> few more industry thats all
19:16:20 <dihedral> geoff_k_: define 'few'?
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19:16:38 <Prof_Frink> Sacro: That's his RFC1149-compliant connection.
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19:16:48 <geoff_k_> the generator seems to have made more i wouldn't like to guess at counting them maybe about 20% more
19:17:18 <dihedral> good thing that 20% is not relative
19:18:07 <geoff_k_> i'lol do some one play on it over next few days running it dedcated server see how i go that way
19:18:38 <dihedral> if you remove all trees you make the map smaller :-)
19:18:42 <geoff_k_> aircraft speed possibly isn;t helping
19:19:00 <geoff_k_> they move a lot faster
19:19:22 <geoff_k_> ive always found int he past a lot of aircraft can slow things down
19:19:40 <dihedral> a lot of anything can slow things down
19:19:43 <geoff_k_> specialy fast aircraft same with trains
19:20:11 <dihedral> it's about the pathfinding
19:20:25 <Rubidium> aircraft and pathfinding?
19:20:52 <geoff_k_> when deisel is introduced then thing normal get a little bit slower but its not bad its still plays well until about highspeed electric trains if there are alot of good player and lots of trains that can be a problem but sitll not as bad
19:21:14 <dihedral> Rubidium: no - i am merly making a point that the pathfinding is more cpu intense than the speed of a vehicle
19:21:18 <geoff_k_> and again its only me seems to suffer
19:21:28 <geoff_k_> everyone else has no problem
19:21:30 <Rubidium> dihedral: not always true
19:21:56 <dihedral> not always allows for it to be somewhat correct :-)
19:22:07 <dihedral> in fact allows for it to be mostly correct
19:22:14 <Rubidium> an NewGRF aircraft flying fast over a group of NewGRF vehicles gives you a load of CPU cycles needed to redraw all of them
19:22:31 <Rubidium> (or NewGRF houses or whatever having action 2)
19:22:52 <dihedral> but that would be temparary cpu load, right
19:23:09 <Rubidium> for each aircraft flying through your screen
19:23:32 <Rubidium> and 'following' vehicles isn't making it any faster either
19:23:43 <dihedral> well - that is temporary enough on a game taht only has 20-50 aircrafts in a 1024^2 map
19:24:31 <dihedral> and should not keep cpu load at 100%
19:31:30 <oh_> looks like it's got 3 going for it to me ;<
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19:32:22 <Rubidium> oh_: game logic is all in one thread
19:32:43 <Rubidium> saves happen in a separate thread and possibly music/sound playback
19:36:57 *** Farden123 is now known as Farden
19:42:31 <dihedral> people on coop are randomly jumping with their vewport to a certain area
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19:54:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11478 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Fix: two small layout issues with the vehicle grouping GUI.
19:54:52 <geoff_k_> hmm just tried to connect to another server running the beta and took forever to download them map then when i got on it my screen has frozen can't even close it,... and connection lost.. will try another one at another location if there are any
19:56:24 <Rubidium> as I said before, the beta is kinda slow due to some debugging stuff that's still enabled in them.
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19:57:47 <geoff_k_> yeah im jsut poking around really to see what does go well, i never play other peoples servers i'll see what happens on the 0.5.3 servers out there im just trying to benchmark what is normal
19:58:34 <Rubidium> I'm just saying that you can't really compare performance
19:58:36 <geoff_k_> downloading maps is very slow
19:58:52 <Rubidium> usually means the server has not enough bandwidth
19:58:53 <geoff_k_> yeah not really if there is debugging to consider
19:59:36 <Gonozal_VIII> slow or bad connection both has nothing to do with game version :-)
20:00:20 <geoff_k_> yeah both games i tried taking for ever to download the maps this one im connection to now is just under 1MB
20:00:35 <geoff_k_> looks like i lost connection there too
20:00:44 <Rubidium> slow download + slower loading + slower getting in sync with the map == more chance to get connection losts
20:00:58 <geoff_k_> thats was 512 x 1024
20:07:19 <dihedral> geoff_k_: consider downloading from servers on faster links :-)
20:07:51 <Gonozal_VIII> pause_on_join = true :-)
20:08:41 <geoff_k_> yeah its finding one though, i just lost connection connecting to a 0.5.3 1024 x 1024 game which looked like it was busy, could just be this systems is not upto it which i find odd, it has been running for almost 2 weeks
20:11:22 <geoff_k_> im connected fine to 512 x 512 0.5.3 thats fine not a lot going on on it though so far
20:11:22 <Gonozal_VIII> you can test you're system with the fast forward button in single player, if it doesn't speed up you're already at the limit
20:13:33 <Gonozal_VIII> (the blubb was for the first you're thing^^)
20:14:21 <dihedral> geoff_k_: for 0.5.3 feel free to try my games
20:15:07 <dihedral> host: openttd.dihedral.de at ports 3979, 27016, 27020
20:15:36 <geoff_k_> thanks will do going to grab a caffine 1st feel like i need it
20:18:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r11479 /trunk/src/ (economy.cpp macros.h):
20:18:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Move the BIGMUL functions to the file of their usage
20:18:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Rename the BIGMUL functions to the fitting naming style
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20:24:45 <geoff_k_> seems to be slow at getting the map, just checked my net with a download its working just fine
20:25:46 <geoff_k_> not sure how long it should take but downloading maps seems to be lot slower than it should be, few kbs per second on any connection either end is slow
20:26:06 <geoff_k_> port 3979 im on and it seems good so far
20:35:40 <Bjarni> <Hendikins> Bjarni: TVM = Ticket Vending Machine <-- LOL... it only took you like 20+ hours to answer that question :D
20:37:13 <Bjarni> though I would be scared if Titanic arrives at New York tomorrow
20:37:35 <Rubidium> Bjarni: you know someone has an issue with 0.6.0-beta1 and OSX10.3?
20:38:40 <Bjarni> I have problems testing it since I don't have hardware to run 10.3 :(
20:38:42 <Rubidium> forum -> OpenTTD -> Problems
20:39:10 <Rubidium> maybe it's something you know
20:39:39 <dihedral> Bjarni: i have a G4 and 10.3.9 on a dvd
20:42:46 <Bjarni> problem solved (I hope)
20:43:36 * dihedral waits to see the commit :-P
20:43:39 <Bjarni> dihedral: that sounds nice. I have 10.3 CDs but the hardware died and I don't feel like paying around £200 for a new PSU for an 800 MHz G4 (custom built PSU)
20:44:19 <Bjarni> * dihedral waits to see the commit :-P <-- the problem was "you placed the grf files in the wrong dir"... I don't think we will see a commit fixing user errors :P
20:45:21 <dihedral> ? grf files? where does that come from?
20:46:22 <Bjarni> well... I can't rule out that your grf files comes from somebody else's CD :P
20:47:21 <Bjarni> what I don't like is that he gets the warning printed that showed up recently.... it shouldn't be there
20:47:44 <Bjarni> dihedral: if everything else fails then I guess you might have to install Panther :s
20:48:11 <Bjarni> damn those names... the numbers are easier to remember :P
20:48:30 <Bjarni> then 1,2,3,4 and now 5
20:48:44 <dihedral> i might just get an external hdd and install it on there... :-)
20:48:53 <dihedral> will be slow but will do the trick
20:49:19 <Bjarni> external HDs aren't that slow if they are connected to firewire
20:49:42 <Bjarni> you will notice a great speed difference if you connect the same disk to USB and firewire (only one at a time :P )
20:49:49 <dihedral> but i dont have that converter
20:49:59 <dihedral> i only have usb to 2.5" ide :-P
20:51:11 <Gonozal_VIII> one of those that run on usb power?
20:51:31 <dihedral> usb => 2.5" ide connecter, the 2.5" ide connector includes power for 2.5" disks
20:52:08 <Bjarni> I have a case for 2.5" HDs and I realised this issue so I made sure that it has both USB and firewire
20:52:33 <Bjarni> it's kind of funny. It can be powered by one firewire cable or two USB cables
20:52:50 <Gonozal_VIII> firewire doesn't supply power or does it?
20:53:07 <Bjarni> but only in 6 pin cables
20:53:24 <Bjarni> some products has only 4 pins and then there aren't any power
20:54:03 <Bjarni> I think firewire can support 8W or something like that though a single cable
20:54:57 <Gonozal_VIII> that doesn't sound like much
20:55:08 <Bjarni> the place where you need it most is if you have a notebook and want to power an external HD from the notebook battery but it looks like only Apple decided to include 6 pin firewire in their notebooks. Everybody else saved some power and space and only added 4 pins
20:55:26 <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> that doesn't sound like much <-- it is compared to the max 2,5W from USB
20:55:57 <Gonozal_VIII> aaah 5v 500ma is 2,5w...
20:56:23 <Bjarni> there is a BIG difference :P
20:56:33 <Gonozal_VIII> uppercase sucks^^
20:57:10 <Bjarni> mA is 10^-3 A while MA is 10^6 A... so a factor 9
20:57:32 <Bjarni> uppercase/lowercase matters
20:59:27 <geoff_k_> dihedral, map 3 i lost conection i guess this cpu is just not good enough for too much going on
21:00:12 <Rubidium> mb vs MB is even bigger
21:00:22 <Rubidium> Bjarni: and it's a factor 10^9, not 9
21:00:40 <Gonozal_VIII> which os are you running on geoff?
21:02:54 <geoff_k_> i find it hard to blieve though because im sure my old PIII's used to work better than this, im going to patch some systems up with different distros i ithnk and see how that goes
21:02:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r11481 /trunk/src/ (88 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: Rename the HASBIT function to fit with the naming style
21:03:01 <geoff_k_> something not right somewhere
21:03:05 <Gonozal_VIII> so the fact that you're running for 2 weeks without reboot shouldn't matter...
21:03:23 <geoff_k_> yeah i never had to reboot
21:03:42 <geoff_k_> plenty of free ram in the system no swap used
21:03:44 <dihedral> skidd13: you're doing some good coding style work there :-)
21:04:05 <skidd13> dihedral: yup, expect more
21:04:13 <geoff_k_> i have had issues before wiht this cpu overheating it why it was thrown out and came into my hands
21:04:30 <geoff_k_> since i cleaned it though its been fine
21:04:56 <geoff_k_> when i found it just segfaulted at everything
21:07:03 <dihedral> skidd13: are you doing that acording to the 'current' guid line or is there a 'new' one?
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21:08:09 <skidd13> dihedral: mainly the current ;)
21:08:58 <skidd13> dihedral: There is some work going on...
21:09:11 <dihedral> give me a url when it's finished :-P
21:09:26 <skidd13> dihedral: www.openttd.org
21:09:47 <Rubidium> wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Coding Style
21:13:57 <dihedral> There is currently no text in this page :-)
21:20:31 <Rubidium> dihedral: it works for me
21:21:25 <Rubidium> Gonozal_VIII: that's something I leave to your browser
21:23:14 <Wezz6400> I think it's the wiki that turns the space into a underscore
21:23:27 <Wezz6400> firefox converts it to %20 for any other link for me
21:24:37 <Gonozal_VIII> there is an entry with space that redirects to the one with _
21:25:00 <Rubidium> Gonozal_VIII: no, the wiki does that automagically
21:25:22 <Rubidium> there is no entry "Coding Style", only "Coding_style" and "Coding_Style"
21:25:38 <Gonozal_VIII> i like automagic :-)
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22:06:37 <dihedral> Bjarni: you around? with like 5 mins to spare...?
22:06:55 <dihedral> no worries, no diff flying around :-P
22:09:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> pssst... some people are sleeping
22:11:54 <Rubidium> shouldn't someone be awake before (s)he can sleep?
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22:12:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> some ... let's call it ... animals ... sleep the whole winter
22:13:54 <dihedral> my 'tiger' on my laptop hibernates :-D
22:14:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> tigers belong in the tank
22:14:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> (even james bond used that phrase)
22:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> roger moore, i believe
22:15:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> but i'm not really sure
22:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> i never heard of an os called gibbon
22:39:56 <dihedral> i much like potato and itchy from debian
22:41:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> i totally ROFLed when i read that they released "Cartoffel" :p
22:46:09 <dihedral> development is sid and always will be
22:46:30 <Prof_Frink> testing is currently lenny, stable is etch
22:49:53 <SmatZ> I really like bugreports like FS#1455
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22:51:56 <dihedral> let's use bugs.openttd.org instead of the tt-forums :-D
22:52:40 <glx> SmatZ: yes it's a nice one ;)
22:55:33 <geoff_k_> i had a look at gutsy to see how it goes for using Xen (nothing else) and it was really bad, lots of bugs and work arounds wasn't impressed
22:56:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> "i spent 5 minutes playing around with $DISTRI and found $ANNOYING_FEATURE, i totally hate it."
23:00:49 <dihedral> nice one Eddi|zuHause2
23:01:15 <geoff_k_> yeah really it was like that
23:02:11 <valhallasw> in not-too-large quantities
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23:04:06 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Error: The command "bugs" is available in the OpenTTD and WT2 plugins. Please specify the plugin whose command you wish to call by using its name as a command before "bugs".
23:15:35 <fjb> The ghost has left again...
23:18:17 <ln-> Bjarni: do you like sangria?
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23:41:32 <slafs> I've set realistic_acceleration = true in openttd.cfg, but the game says it is off. Why?
23:42:35 <Digitalfox> ln-: Is Sangria a drink?
23:42:55 <Digitalfox> In Portugal it is :)
23:42:57 <SmatZ> slafs: in the game intro is it off?
23:43:19 <slafs> I dunno, dedicated server
23:44:09 <slafs> is it possible to set with rcon or console?
23:45:19 <SmatZ> slafs: patch realistic_acceleration 1 could work
23:46:12 <Bjarni> <ln-> Bjarni: do you like sangria? <--- err.. that depends... are you thinking of the same sangria as I'm thinking about? :)
23:46:48 <Bjarni> <dihedral> Bjarni: you around? with like 5 mins to spare...? <-- well... I am now
23:47:03 <Bjarni> the question is more about the 5 minutes though :/
23:48:59 <fjb> Hm, the new one way road gui is nice. Could that easily be implemented for railroads?
23:49:33 <SmatZ> fjb: one-way rail? aren't one-way signals enough?
23:50:12 <Gonozal_VIII> you mean automatically place a signal every x tiles?
23:50:16 <Bjarni> just place a one way signal and you have a one way track
23:50:17 <fjb> The semantics of one way signals is horribly wrong. A train should just ignore a signal for the other direction.
23:50:56 <Bjarni> you mean you want something like simutrans signalling?
23:51:35 <fjb> I don't know simultrans. But I never heard about trains stopping ultimatively at the backside of a signal...
23:52:22 <fjb> Sort of? Under what circumstances?
23:53:04 <Bjarni> if a train drives on the left track and there is an entrance signal (to a station) for the right track, then they have to stop in front of that signal even though it's not for that particular track
23:53:13 <Bjarni> they will then look into the backside of the exit signal
23:54:25 <fjb> But what counts is the signal at the neighbouring track facing the same direction as the train, not the signal with it's backside in front of the train.
23:55:03 <ln-> Digitalfox: sure it is a drink.
23:55:26 <Bjarni> but then again I don't drink
23:55:47 <Digitalfox> ln-: I asked because it could be another thing in your country
23:56:02 <ln-> Sangria er en blanding af vin, sædvanligvis rødvin, og frugt, og gerne et sødningsmiddel. Andre ingredienser kan også høre med. Det findes dog mange forskellige varianter og opskrifter. Sangria blir ofte serveret om sommeren som en kold drik, og er for mange desuden synonym med 1970'ernes spanske grisefester.
23:56:07 <Digitalfox> It's a very loved drink here in Portugal
23:56:45 <Digitalfox> Lot's of people from teeangers to adults and old people drink it ;)
23:56:54 <Bjarni> ln- just said it's popular when travelling to Spain during the 70s
23:56:55 <ln-> Digitalfox: we "don't" have it here... (it can be bought somewhere but it's not common nor popular).
23:57:33 <Bjarni> now he told me what it's made of but I have never heard of it
23:57:34 <ln-> on our trip to Barcelona last summer we had it every day, i think.
23:57:44 <Digitalfox> Bjarni: I don't even know what language was that lol
23:58:04 <Bjarni> Digitalfox: a readable one :P
23:58:06 <Digitalfox> personally i love beer :) Lot's of it eh eh
23:58:16 <ln-> A sangria é uma bebida ou coquetel feita com base numa mistura de vinho tinto, sumo de fruta e pedaços de frutas e açúcar.
23:58:19 <Bjarni> I don't drink beer either
23:58:33 <Digitalfox> A week without 20 it's not a good one :\
23:58:53 <Bjarni> <Bjarni> drunk bastards :P
23:59:41 <ln-> Bjarni: despite the rødvin, sangria tastes better.. it's sort of a refreshing, cold drink like coke.
23:59:44 <Bjarni> people say stupid stuff when they are drunk
23:59:46 * fjb wonders what fun drinking is.
continue to next day ⏵
